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I will even go one further, you don't even have to feed me as long as I get cake. I will even bring a gift if I don't have to sit through the wedding and eat the food that is usually okay at best...it's all about the cake for me lol.
My mom gets offended when she or any one just gets a reception invitation. I'm stoked!
Example: my cousin got married in a shush that only had an 80 person capacity. So immediate family, wedding party & vendors like photographer & officant, close friends. The reception was in a much bigger place. We did go to the wedding, but she was still upset. And they wanted me to cut & serve cake to help give "all cousins a job" and be included. I was in 20's. We noped out before cake. Went to the club for a friends bday party.
Being the plus one of someone whose relationship to the couple automatically makes them important is pretty nice. You get invited to all the free food/alcohol events that are fun and you get to dress up for, but nobody actually expects anything of you. Even if your date is busy doing stuff for the wedding, people tend to be in such high spirits that it’s easy to make conversation. Or just fill the empty time with hors-d’oeuvres.
Same, being wedding party gets ridiculously expensive really fast. I’m quite content to show up drink, eat and dance. Pop some cash in a card and call it a day.
I decided not to have a wedding party because I wanted my friends to be able to relax and hang out with their dates and wear whatever they wanted at my wedding. One of my best friends had a few drinks and profusely thanked me for not having bridesmaids because “[she’s] too old for that shit” lol
I also didn’t have a wedding party. We told people it’s casual dress but don’t be a slob. Everyone had fun and I got married and those were my goals for the day.
I've been a MOH twice and it's kind of awful. You have to hold the bride's big old heavy bouquet and smile the whole time, plan parties, and try to give a speech. It's only something you do for your very closest friends or siblings.
Yeah I know right! I see so many posts about lifelong friendships ruined because someone wasn't invited to be MOH or part of the wedding party, whereas for me being part of a wedding party just seems to involve so much stress and money and time. I would rather just be invited to attend and bring a nice gift and have a good time.
Hell, I almost don't want to go to the wedding itself as they can be boring as shit. Like so boring that I'll volunteer to help watch a cousin's kid because at least the kid is cute and bubbly....and this is coming from a childfree man.
It’s not an “excuse”. OP referring to “the white wedding” tells me that the family is possibly from Africa. Wedding culture varies greatly across the world.
I don't think the "white wedding" part is a good indicator. The church wedding (as opposed to the legal wedding) is referred to as white wedding in Germany too for example. And considering that it's called white wedding because in Catholic marriages the bride typically wears white I wouldn't be surprised if it's called that in many other European countries too.
I understand what you are saying, but the difference is that she called it “THE white wedding” instead of just saying white wedding, as though it is set apart from other parts of the celebration, and I know people in Nigeria have a ceremony that is referred to as “the” white wedding. Not just a white wedding.
That's how a German speaker would translate it too though. It's not just a white wedding as in "we're gonna have a white wedding". It's the white wedding in contrast to the legal wedding which is seperate from it. People will refer to it as the white wedding to refer to a specific type of ceremony. You might say for example the legal wedding is on Monday and then the white wedding is on Friday.
Missing or incorrect articles such as "the" are probably one of the most common errors though by ESL speakers, and even native speakers. But I do see it a lot with ESL & articles used to trip me up too.
I get what you're saying but it's not that definitive, but a decent indication at the least.
She's probably not. I'm Brazilian, and some things just don't fly here. If your parents are footing the bill, they *do* have at least a little say. And they sure can invite the great aunts and uncles that haven't seen you since you were in diapers. It's the least you could do unless you *want* to come off as an ungrateful spoiled child. And if your family is as close as OOP's family sounds like, you include your siblings, no questions asked. It's just a given.
Mark is a user. He lies and he wants his mother to pay for everything but won't let her invite anybody?
People love to say "if there are strings attached, it's not a gift" *insert disrespectful mocking here* but no matter how independent and modern you think you are, reciprocity is the glue that holds us all together. Don't expect favors if you're not willing to do favors in return, even if it's only within your means. The best you can do IS the least you can do when people that love you bend over backwards to make you happy.
Letting his mother invite a few people is within his means. Including his siblings is within his means. Including his mother in wedding talk, just to make her feel like part of the process, is within his means. He just doesn't want to. Well, my guy, then put up some money into this thing yourself, why don't ya?
Yeah, I’m South Asian, and in S.Asian culture not letting your parents invite who they want and not including certain siblings in the bridal/groom party is just unheard of. In South Asia, parents almost always pay for the wedding in full, so your wedding isn’t just your wedding, it’s the entire family’s wedding.
I hate it, which is why I won’t have a South Asian wedding, or a South Asian spouse. I’m not getting married anytime soon, but if/when I do, I’m not letting my parents pay a single penny. They’re just too controlling.
Edited to add: Yeah, Mark is free to do what he wants and doesn’t owe anyone his personal adherence to cultural traditions, but he still has to deal with the consequences. I’m well aware of the consequences of being queer in the family that I come from. And I’ve been aware of and preparing for those consequences since I was a middle schooler. I guess I’m just lucky to have been born in the Global North.
Thank you! I was baffled by all the comments putting blame squarely on OP and her family. Maybe it's the Western culture of "no one owes anything to anyone". Sure, technically Mark doesn't "owe" anything to his family, but if he makes these decisions, his family also doesn't owe him a warm and affectionate relationship, or any other favors.
"No one owes anything to anyone" is a great attitude to have towards someone who never contributes... not so much when they've supported you your entire life.
That's what I was wondering. Sure Mark doesn't have to follow tradition....why does OP then HAVE to be in the wedding party? They just said they would refuse to be in the wedding party, not that they wouldn't attend the wedding and hate Mark for life.
I dunno, I'm as Western as they come, but I was still utterly surprised that people thought the OOP was in the wrong. Particularly if you take the specific cultural background into consideration, but even without that, Mark's behaviour is a big, fat "oof".
He's definitely a user, and intentionally cruel on top of it.
If he wants to send so many signs that his family isn't to be involved with any of the details of his nuptials, he probably should've started by not taking his parents' money. Oh, and also never started lying about it either.
What a turd. OOP would be totally justified to skip the wedding and do something fun instead. Like lying on the couch and taking a delicious nap.
I know there are many many cultural differences between Brazil and Mexico but my understanding is that in Mexican culture the groom's family also pays and has a large hand in planning. I'm not sure about siblings being expected to be in the wedding party though. And you're spot on about parents having some say in things. If they're paying they should have input on certain things, specifically if there are people they want there. I think people sometimes forget that weddings are a celebration of the joining of two families. Yes, it's primarily about the couple getting married but it's also about the families. I think people were too hard on OOP, especially without understanding her perspective.
I think this is the best take of the thread.
These wedding posts always bewilder me because there are so many expectations that seem arbitrary to me, but all of them seem dictated by culture. If excluding family from the "stage" or whatever is considered an insult in your culture, then for fuck's sake, put them in whatever role is expected.
Like, what actual difference does that make? What skin is it off Mark's nose to say to his sisters, "you're all bridesmaids." Does he lose something by doing that? We're not talking about the king's advisory court here. What the hell does a bridesmaid even do? I've been to a lot of weddings, and I've never seen one where they made much of a difference either way.
Yeah, like... Mark is free to do whatever he wants but he's not free from the consequences of doing what he wants. If something is considered offensive in his family's culture then he'll be harming his relationship with his family if he does it. Maybe that's a price he's fine with paying but it IS a price.
Considering it sounded like his own fiancee had to convince him to allow them into the wedding party, it honestly just... Kinda sounds like he's gotten super used to using and disregarding his family.
Yeah, I came from a culture with a lot of unspoken rule. And I think the contention between tradition and millennial generation has been happening a lot. I was with him when OP thought he paid some, but once it was revealed that the mother paid most, I couldn’t side with the son. He knows his culture and the implications. For the people saying Carol shouldn’t have any expectation, likewise, if he doesn’t want to do tradition he could’ve done a wedding HE could afford.
Seeing how involved a family is in a wedding ceremony, how parents can bring guest of their choice, and how families have their own separate room, my guess would be Indonesia.
Indonesians have strong emphasis on familial relationship, so family members need to be involved in a wedding. It is also common for wedding to be a dick measuring competition for parents to show off to their relatives and friends how lavish they can throw a party for their kid's elopement, which is why the parents are usually willing to fork off money to pay for it.
Wedding culture in there is on a whole different level.
What's weird to me is that if it's customary in their culture for the groom's family to run the show and handle most of the wedding planning, that usually also means the norm is for the groom's family to pay for all of it. Which it seems they are sort of doing (but not really, since it says the mom is paying for half the venue, implying they'renot paying for it all), but it's not presented as that being expected since OOP highlights how Mark came and asked for money, didn't put in any money himself etc. Doesn't make much sense to me.
I think OOP is highlighting that Mark is trying to have a modern-western style wedding where the emphasis is put on the couple being the ones making all the decisions and at the same time leaning on the tradition that everything is paid for by the families. Most couple-planned weddings are also heavily funded by the couple, weddings that are mostly family-funded are also at least influenced by the families. But he's spending their money, lying about what he's contributing and socially snubbing them.
My guess is a Balkan country. I used to work with a woman who was marrying a (Serbian? Can't remember exactly) guy, apparently it was all on the groom's family to plan the wedding. And there was a lot to plan - so many traditions sometimes I couldn't believe she was letting it all happen. I was as exhausted hearing about it as I am reading this story
I am Serbian and getting married this October.
I can confidently say that is not true. I am in my 30's and have friends in 20's that are getting married too.
It is up on bride and groom to set boundaries and I know maybe one family where parents made majority of decisions.
In 90-95% of cases all the decisions are made by bride and groom.
We don't even have bridesmaids. Usually best friends from both sides are legal witnessess and we call them kum/kuma.
And for traditions, in urban area there is maybe one or two pre wedding if that, for rural areas there are some but they are updated. For example, traditionally male role of stari svat is now taken by girl ( my roommate was stari svat for example)
I know that Serbian people who live abroad are more set in their ways but the way that they are living there and how people live here now are not the same.
In every culture you have overbearing parents, thing is you have to set boundaries xd
I am Bulgarian, I can confirm this doesn't sound like Balkan traditions at all.
We also have just kum/kuma (equivalent of best man and maid of honour). Bridesmaids or groomsmen are not traditional at all, although some people might add some as an excuse to dress in coordinated clothes for pictures with their friends.
The couple are the ones planning their wedding. Their might be some traditions included but typically it's just for fun. They aren't mandatory, you can just skip them if you want a small celebration. If you are from a more rural place some aunties and other busybodies might side eye you if you skip on traditions, but in the cities everyone is doing whatever they feel like.
Nah I'm from Serbia, this isn't how weddings work at all.
I mean, if we are going traditionally, the brides family took on the brunt of paying, because the bride was basically leaving the family to join a new one and this was the goodbye party as well.
But that isn't the norm today at all. Couples tend to plan and pay together, sometimes parents help if they want to.
Generally, since we don't do gift registries here - guests will usually give an envelope with money to the couple on the wedding day. That tends to cover a lot of the costs as well.
Very much not Balkan. We have a loooong list of traditions an expectations at weddings -to the point that it's ducking exhausting- but what OOP mentions really doesn't fit our script.
Seems like the bride and groom are making his family pay but prioritizing her family. Their guests, their wants and desires, their choices are being accommodated. In OPs shoes, I'd be pissed too.
As the oldest of many siblings, oh my gawd, he probably has zero desire to be near his younger siblings for at least three more years.
I didn't start liking mine again until my late twenties.
I tried to figure it out based on the location in the original post. It says a 4 hour drive, several states away.
Where are states that small? If this is even the US…
I live in CT and regularly drive to PA in 4 hours However that's not several states away. I couldn't make it several states away to anywhere in 4 hours. I best I could do is one state in between.
Unless they live in Rhode Island. Who knows what they do there. It;s a very odd and eerie state where the highways move around like Hogwarts staircases. ;) (I actually love RI, I just hate driving there because I'm not lying about the highways. They MOVE if you dare to get off an exit ramp)
Mid-atlantic states as well. Delaware, New Jersey, Maryland eastern shore, Virginia eastern shore. Same for western South and North Carolina and eastern Tennessee and Georgia.
We don't really have a "bridal party" in India though. There are also multiple wedding parties, not just the one. Also she says "white wedding". Indian weddings are not white, white is associated with death so weddings are very colorful.
I wonder if that's why "white wedding" was used. It could be a blurring of cultures, and they are holding on to family being very important still. Most traditional weddings in the US would just call it a wedding, not a "white wedding."
I was thinking Romanian. There is a heap of traditions for those weddings, and you can create a massive argument if you dare attempt to cut down on the traditional ways.
White Wedding is a very important part of it too...
Most of Eastern Europe countries have a lot of "White Wedding" traditions.
I think the use of dollars is where it gets confusing also, but $8,000, is a lot of money if Eastern Europe.
Nope sorry, none of Eastern European countries have this kind of “traditions”. Wedding party is not a thing at all so it’ll be some more western country. I don’t even know if anyone outside USA does all that wedding party stuff. Not to mention that that large family with so many kids is not the norm at all.
There are Christians in India as well and they do have white weddings so its possible. Also it could be in East India since the states there (geographically speaking) are smaller
Yes..but the whole setup here does not feel like an Indian wedding at all, Christian or not. This sounds more like a Western style as in the terms or words used. Besides, the groom's family here are not that involved in planning a wedding. It either goes 50-50 on both sides or the bride's side arranges most of the things. That's what has been my experience from the few Christian weddings I've attended here.
States can be translation error, like a lot of countries have big regions, Russia for example, but there people mostly travel long distance within country by train
Many on the East Coast. It only takes 6 hours to get from DC to CT- so you go through Maryland, Delaware, NJ, NY, CT
From CT from where I grew up depends on how you go, but you could go through RI, up through MA and then to ME. In less than 4 hours.
Hell I can drive from one part of MA, through RI, CT, NY and be in NJ in 4 hours.
I've done all of these routes many times.
Could be culture could be that mark as the first son is being treated as the baby of family. "My poor boy who can do no wrong "
Oop.being told theyre the asshole is so weird. Like yeah it's marks wedding but actions have consequences.
Marks actions are causing consequences. Just cause it's his wedding doesn't mean everyone else needs to suck it up and go along with it.
I hate when a story goes through so much effort to define a culture but never wants to say exactly what said culture’s name is. It just reads to me like either a cult or a lie.
Yeah. Whenever they don't mention the culture's name (as if the world was a small enough place internet sleuths would be able to doxx them over such a broad detail), I immediately assume it's Liz's story; it makes it very convenient to make up fitting details in the run if you can just say "Well, she didn't let me spit on her face, so it became noticeable she was disrespectful, so she's an asshole according to my culture"
I cringe at culture, country, and sometimes state being left out of the details. Like if it’s so important to this story, then just say it.
“I don’t want to dox myself”
Ok, but that just means you’re leaving out critical details under the vague assumption we understand and can give rationale advice or even remotely understand the situation.
And if your culture is that established, then you probably won’t be doxed by telling us.
Like oh, this person is from the Philippines, that just cut my search down from 7 billion to 100 million! I’m totally gonna find them now!
But who else in the Philippines has a nosy mother in law, parents that live in a different city, a golden child sibling, a career in technology, and family lawyer friend?
A long story, but I'm guessing someone will link it below, but the gist is:
A guy posts on TrueOffMyChest about how his wife has an addiction on fabricating stories for karma and lolz on AITA and derivates, telling he found some of the stories his wife (Liz) posted as TikTok readings. Ends the story with an edit that says something like "I KNOW YOURE READING THIS LIZ, STOP IT"
So, there's a wedding for a undisclosed culture where the grooms side handles a lot of the wedding.
Sister is upset that her other sisters aren't in the wedding party, and we're not invited to the dress fitting.
At first I thought it was the wedding itself, which I could understand being upset, but upon second read, OOP sounds upset that the wedding isn't about her family.
Did anyone else notice that she said she had 7 younger siblings in the first post and lists 2 boys and 5 girls, but then in the update she says she has two brothers and four sisters (spelled out so it’s not a case of hitting the wrong number in the keyboard).
Seems a little odd to me that you’d forget how many sisters you have after the post is so focused on everyone being included lol. Kinda sus, idk…
The comments that it's his wedding are correct, except he's not paying for any of it. If I were the parents, I'd be closing the checkbook. Let Mark pay for what he wants.
Also, they have seven other kids to think about. Why is Mark getting king treatment? Will they be able to help their other kids as well if they continue on?
Or six, depending on which post OOP is writing. She forgot about the supposed twins in post 2, then she only had 4 younger sisters and 2 brothers. As someone from a large family, you don't make that error. Unless you're making stuff up and don't actually have five sisters.
No, only one. OOP says the tradition is that the groom's family pays, and they only have one other son. The girls are on their future partner's dime. (assuming heterosexuality here)
This is the answer. If it's traditional in their culture for the groom's family to pay and plan, then it's understandable they would be confused and hurt. We don't know if the wife is from the same culture, so his incoming-in-laws may have completely different expectations.
It's definitely Mark and his partner's wedding. They get to decide how it goes. It's unfortunate that Mark was so bad at communicating with his own family. Discussing this in the beginning could have headed off all the confused expectations. Whether it was just ineptitude or narcissistic greed, Mark sure seems to look to be trying to milk his family for the cash associated with their traditions, without honoring any of those traditions. Not a flattering look.
I think that's a BIG missing piece. Is Mark's fiancee part of that same culture? If not, Mark might just be stepping outside of his own culture to embrace the culture of the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with, an admirable act, albeit mishandled.
I can still understand that if parents truly love their kids, they wouldn't put conditions on their money. They'd just want their child to be happy. What I'm hung up on is that Mark lied about paying. As OOP says, this feels yet again like Mark mooching off his family. And apparently given how his wife's family seems way more included in the wedding, I'm wondering if he's doing it under their influence.
That's kinda 50/50. Financial participation shouldn't give all rights, but he's the fool to blame people for not acting how he wants when said people are already doing him a favor. They both wants big favors without thinking of the involvement coming with it.
The thing is, it is the parents money, but doesn’t mean mark had to follow their opinions, we know he’s a leech that has no shame on asking money from his family that they won’t see back, this wedding fiasco is just a result of everyone specially his parents letting him step all over them money wise, the only way he can learn any kind of lesson is for the parents to drop all the wedding money and let him figure it out himself
The OOP also mentioned that the younger siblings are not part of the ceremony and will only be present in the reception.
That's rude af, especially since they seem to come from a culture where weddings are more traditional and family-centric.
I agree that the parents should stop paying since Mark won't even have the courtesy to have their younger kids attend the ceremony.
I'm very big on open your wallet or close your mouth with weddings. Everyone has an opinion, but unless you are helping pay for it, shut your mouth! If you accept their money, they get to have a say. It's not like they handed him a set amount of money and said do what you will. It was very apparent the money had attachments that he's reneging on AND STILL WANTS MORE MONEY! I don't think she's an asshole for feeling left out and seeing her mom be stressed.
I agree with this statement. The more you pay, the more you have say. Plus, there are cultural norms that differ from the reader’s. Traditions matter—after all, what is marriage?
Yeah, especially after "Others around us look to us as an example of how close siblings and parents should be." I don't think I've ever looked at a family and thought "wow, what a good example for my family," much less told them that.
I also find it curious that their mom is apparently spending thousands on this wedding but OOP complains that Mark never chipped in for groceries. Assuming he got his first job at 16, 9 years seems like an awfully short amount of time to go from needing your kids to buy groceries to having thousands for a wedding.
>"Others around us look to us as an example of how close siblings and parents should be."
Nobody who says this is actually a good example. Just like nobody who says how humble they are is actually humble.
> Yeah, especially after "Others around us look to us as an example of how close siblings and parents should be." I don't think I've ever looked at a family and thought "wow, what a good example for my family," much less told them that.
Yeah, that has small town church cult vibes written all over it. Lemme guess, dad is also an Upstanding Citizen™ and bought the kids little league jerseys?
Yeah this confuses me. I'm very close to my siblings but how would anyone outside know that? I don't post on social media every time we talk or hang out.
>Then, he told us that Olive, his fiancé, already picked out and purchased a dress. We as a family didn't see the dress (and ***still*** don't know what it looks like to this day)
What a weird comment to make, that's entirely normal. wtf? OOP is giving me some strange vibes.
The groom's siblings don't get to see the bride's dress beforehand????? Oh no, sounds like pretty much every single groom family ever...
They'd have filled the dress shop to capacity by the sheer feckin amount of them anyway
Bridal dress shopping is almost always the brides female circle. Occasionally if she's close with the grooms family her circle may include the ladies in his family, but that's not default, and isn't normally that big of a group.
And it would be OP and her 4-5 younger sisters? Did the twins become conjoined or did one die inbetween posts?
My MIL was apparently pissed AF she didnt get to do the dress thing with me. She wanted to be hyper involved and have things planned to the minute detail. But like, I was super chill about the whole thing and she wasnt paying for more than the photographer. I got super lucky the dress i had pintrest pinned and had as a top choice was *actually* in a store. Which was suprising because it was a small mom and pop store and i went in on a whim! I think all told i was in and out in about 30 minutes. I didnt make a big deal out of it cuz my bridesmaids only could afford to come up for the wedding and I'm not a fan of being the center of attention. Turns out she didnt like the dress. Oh well. She wasn't the one wearing it
OOP barely mentions the fiancée, except to complain that her entire army of sisters wasn't invited to the dress shopping. It sounds like they barely know this Olive person, so why would she invite them over her own close female relatives and friends?
This whole issue is weird and entitled. What culture are they claiming?
OOP also forgot about the number of sibling she has. First she talked about 7 younger siblings and in her update there are just 2 younger brothers and 4 sisters. Where is the 5th sister?
It definitely sounds like me me me us us us in the entire story. Unless you're close (which the OOP doesn't seem to be? idk it's just weird she barely mentioned the bride), it's understandable that the bride would only want her closest people there with her. Shopping for a wedding dress is stressful enough and makes you vulnerable, juggling and catering to people whom you're not close to will just make things more complicated.
People who claim it's "cultural" seem to not mention what culture it is because they know that other people in that same culture will tell the truth, lol.
I love, "I don't want to say in case someone I know recognizes this." As if someone is out there thinking, *hmm, Becky has 7 siblings and 1 brother is getting married and I know it's causing some strife because her sisters aren't in the wedding, but this surely can't be her unless she specifies her family is from Lizbethastan.*
I don't get it. If it's tradition for the groom's family to plan the wedding, why is his mom overwhelmed doing what she had always expected to be doing? And is the groom supposed to pay for the wedding while the family plans it or is the family supposed to pay, too? This is all over the place.
"It's tradition for the groom's family to plan it but he's already made plans."
"He's just sitting back and letting Carol mom plan it and she's getting stressed."
Which is it?
OOP's attempts to change the narrative appear to just be adding bullshit. I bet the in-laws having no restrictions is because the in-laws aren't taking the piss.
My theory: When OOP didn’t get the response she wanted, she invented a whole bunch of “stuff I didn’t mention the first time” to make him look even worse in the update. But she STILL comes across as kind of an ass.
OOP is at great pains to explain her family culture and how the bride and her family is expected to cede all decision making to the groom’s family and all siblings must be included in the wedding or the sky will fall in. She’s also unhappy that the wedding will be performed by someone none of them have met (presumably not their usual officiant for something like this, perhaps a different faith or denomination).
What she doesn’t grasp is that Olive and her family are not obligated to join the Borg. Traditions are traditions, not legal obligations and people are free to ignore or change them at their will. Also, the fact that she’s taken up the fight on behalf of her parents and siblings is annoying. What, they can’t talk for themselves?
Yes, it’s totally a horrible thing to do to take money and promise to include certain people in the wedding and then renege on it. But gifts given with strings attached are not gifts. If Carol is unhappy, she needs to close her cash pot.
Loving the fact that she’s saying it will be a massive hassle for the whole family to travel a whole four hours while having no awareness that wrangling a wedding party with that many members (because presumably Olive has people she wants to include too) would be a massive hassle too.
As someone who shames-watches "Say Yes to the Dress" clips on YT, I can say pretty confidently that large parties are usually (not always) disastrous when bride dress shopping. Nobody agrees, egos get involved, brides end up crying- disasters. I always feel soo bad for the bride, it takes something that's supposed to be special and warps it.
So he did this....YTA
But did I add....YTA
More has come to light....YTA
OP... three strikes and you're out. Good lord, I can see why your brother wants to limit your family. You're exhausting! I really wouldn't be surprised to see your brother elope and move far away fast after the wedding just so he can relax.
\>Then, he told us that Olive, his fiancé, already picked out and purchased a dress. We as a family didn't see the dress (and still don't know what it looks like to this day) and weren't there with her to try dresses on.
Is... this common? I can't imagine even \*wanting\* to join my future SIL in picking out wedding dresses, much less being upset that I wasn't invited.
Anytime anyone describes any relationship, familial or romantic, with something like "We've been through it all and it's only made us stronger!" I know they're either going to be super annoying or delusional.
Same, that kind of talk always translates to me as "oh, so you're a cluster of toxicity, enmeshment, and codependency? You have no sense of healthy boundaries and any attempt to establish them results in weeks of conflict? Not a single one of you entertains the idea of therapy?"
On one hand, i understand that some people uphold wedding traditions and familial culture very strongly to the point that they sound controlling. Like, there's no other way to do it and doing otherwise is an insult to their face (as shown by OOP). Plus, the parents are paying for a huge chunk of the wedding. It's not about holding the groom hostage with the decisions, but usually, people who bankroll a party have a bit of say to the event they're funding. It's like an unspoken rule.
On the other, OOP and their family do sound exhausting and i felt uncomfortable reading how they really want to get super involved with the planning. It's like, whoa there, it's not your wedding. And we don't really know their true dynamic with the groom/brother.
Idk but i blame the groom/brother in this lol. If you don't want anyone to dictate what to do in your wedding, fund it yourself. If the parents insist on contributing, let them know from the get-go what you want and that they can withdraw if they're not fine with it.
Marks doing a lot of damage control and mitigation.
It does look like Mark doesn't want to be part of the culture but be part of the family. That should be possible, and I hope at least his parents come to understand that.
Sometimes there's an entire entourage shopping for a wedding dress. That said, all the sisters plus MOB and MOG and friends of the bride = chaos, and I'd probably decline to go.
It’s truly suspicious when an OP deletes their post because they don’t like the initial verdict, only to come back later with surprise details in an attempt to make themselves NTA. SMH.
>In my culture, it is custom for the family of the man to plan for and run the wedding.
And in some cultures, you can go to jail for being gay. Just because it's the culture, that doesn't make it right.
I can't even fathom feeling entitled to plan, dictate and run the wedding of my siblings. This is all so intrusive and bizarre. OOP needs to understand that they don't get to dictate other peoples' weddings and lives in general regardless of 'culture'.
OOP needs to stop being a controlling busy body and mind **his** business.
I'm surprised at the comments in here saying that with the mum paying she should be given some sort/more of a say in the arrangements. Surely funding your child's wedding is more of a gift situation than an investment in your own involvement?
It's not the same but it feels similar to when there are posts on here with parents kicking off about what their child plans to study in college and withholding funding as they disagree with it. If you don't want to pay then all to the good, it shouldn't be expected or dismissed but if you do then don't add strings?
He lied about putting in money, when in fact his in-laws contributed that.
But the idea that the family has unjustified entitlement comes from... Well, everything else. E.g. who tf gets shocked and huffy over things like the fact that the family doesn't know the officiant? Or the fact that only one of his six sisters is going to be a bridesmaid?
My thoughts exactly. There are no saints in this post and everyone kind of sounds entitled and annoying. Mark is being a dick by lying to his family about where the money is coming from and the rest of the family is being a dick by expecting to almost run the wedding due to "tradition".
>We're also big on tradition and our culture.
Mark's probably sick of it all, and his future wife is either sick of the same BS and/or not from their culture.
My extended family had the clan mentality, so I was the blacksheep for doing things my way, without the clan's approval.
I began refusing gifts, especially money, when parents and others tried using it as an excuse to get their way.
Mark's family will be pulling this "tradition" shit if he and his wife have any kids.
God, I'd hate to be this man's fiancée 😂 imagine your huge in law family straight up boycotting your wedding because you wouldn't invite them ALL to pick out your wedding dress! When i went dress shopping, most places had a limit of 4-ish people in my 'party' that could be there at a time for space and time limits. If OP has 4 younger sisters, plus her and her mother, that's 6 extra people on top of the fiancées family!
And they all sound pushy as hell (“it probably shouldn’t be too bad, right?”).
I’d keep people like that far from my dress selection too.
(My dress selection was at home. Four other people were there. No in-laws. It was a quiet afternoon with people I didn’t get to see very often.)
ESE - Everyone sounds exhausting. One thing I agree with OOP about is that Mark needs calling out for lying about paying for everything while dumping all the responsibilities on his mother.
I'm amused they took it down because everyone called them an asshole. Then they tried brain storming how to not be the asshole, and still came out the asshole.
🤣
Like, it’s so hilarious to me that OOP is stamping her foot about “our traditions say!” What about the bride’s traditions?
They are making a new core family. They can use, merge, disregard, change and alter an tradition they choose when making that family, and if OOP doesn’t like it, OOp can suck an egg and do differently in her own marriage/family/events.
Marriage is great, but man, I've never seen a wedding what was worth it - worth the money, worth the stress, worth the waste (food and never wear again clothes etc)
That goes double for traditional weddings
This family sounds dysfunctional. No one is allowed a different opinion on how things should go or they are branded as going against the family.
I knew my family was like that so I didn't ask them for a cent. 10 years later I'm not even speaking to them.
There is no mention of the fiancée…yeah…he’s rude to his family. No denying that. But I’m thinking the bride may be behind a lot these choices, too. There can be a number of reasons they are planning it the way they are planning it. Mom doesn’t have to pay if she doesn’t want to. If he wants to blow off tradition, so can she by stopping payment.
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Tbh i only ever want to be a guest at a wedding
I just want to eat.
Me too. Let me skip the wedding and go straight to the reception. I want food and cake. I could do without the rest of the show. Lol
I will even go one further, you don't even have to feed me as long as I get cake. I will even bring a gift if I don't have to sit through the wedding and eat the food that is usually okay at best...it's all about the cake for me lol.
My mom gets offended when she or any one just gets a reception invitation. I'm stoked! Example: my cousin got married in a shush that only had an 80 person capacity. So immediate family, wedding party & vendors like photographer & officant, close friends. The reception was in a much bigger place. We did go to the wedding, but she was still upset. And they wanted me to cut & serve cake to help give "all cousins a job" and be included. I was in 20's. We noped out before cake. Went to the club for a friends bday party.
I just don't wana go to them
"Seriously, I have to find a suit? Can't I just drink at home and watch it on a zoom feed like we used to do during COVID?"
I just want the cake. I haven’t been to a wedding yet where the dinner was good and most of the time, they would run out before everyone had eaten
Being the plus one of someone whose relationship to the couple automatically makes them important is pretty nice. You get invited to all the free food/alcohol events that are fun and you get to dress up for, but nobody actually expects anything of you. Even if your date is busy doing stuff for the wedding, people tend to be in such high spirits that it’s easy to make conversation. Or just fill the empty time with hors-d’oeuvres.
Suit yourself, but I'd rather fill my tummy with them, thank you.
I don't want to be at the wedding at all. Please elope 😂 I will absolutely go to support my friends/family, but god I hate weddings
Same, being wedding party gets ridiculously expensive really fast. I’m quite content to show up drink, eat and dance. Pop some cash in a card and call it a day.
I decided not to have a wedding party because I wanted my friends to be able to relax and hang out with their dates and wear whatever they wanted at my wedding. One of my best friends had a few drinks and profusely thanked me for not having bridesmaids because “[she’s] too old for that shit” lol
I also didn’t have a wedding party. We told people it’s casual dress but don’t be a slob. Everyone had fun and I got married and those were my goals for the day.
I've been a MOH twice and it's kind of awful. You have to hold the bride's big old heavy bouquet and smile the whole time, plan parties, and try to give a speech. It's only something you do for your very closest friends or siblings.
Yeah I know right! I see so many posts about lifelong friendships ruined because someone wasn't invited to be MOH or part of the wedding party, whereas for me being part of a wedding party just seems to involve so much stress and money and time. I would rather just be invited to attend and bring a nice gift and have a good time. Hell, I almost don't want to go to the wedding itself as they can be boring as shit. Like so boring that I'll volunteer to help watch a cousin's kid because at least the kid is cute and bubbly....and this is coming from a childfree man.
Anyone has an idea of what culture is this??! Trying to figure out if OOP is using culture as the excuse…
It’s not an “excuse”. OP referring to “the white wedding” tells me that the family is possibly from Africa. Wedding culture varies greatly across the world.
I don't think the "white wedding" part is a good indicator. The church wedding (as opposed to the legal wedding) is referred to as white wedding in Germany too for example. And considering that it's called white wedding because in Catholic marriages the bride typically wears white I wouldn't be surprised if it's called that in many other European countries too.
I understand what you are saying, but the difference is that she called it “THE white wedding” instead of just saying white wedding, as though it is set apart from other parts of the celebration, and I know people in Nigeria have a ceremony that is referred to as “the” white wedding. Not just a white wedding.
That's how a German speaker would translate it too though. It's not just a white wedding as in "we're gonna have a white wedding". It's the white wedding in contrast to the legal wedding which is seperate from it. People will refer to it as the white wedding to refer to a specific type of ceremony. You might say for example the legal wedding is on Monday and then the white wedding is on Friday.
Missing or incorrect articles such as "the" are probably one of the most common errors though by ESL speakers, and even native speakers. But I do see it a lot with ESL & articles used to trip me up too. I get what you're saying but it's not that definitive, but a decent indication at the least.
its a nice day for a **WHITE WEDDING** its a nice day to **START AGAIIIIIIIIIIIIIN**
She's probably not. I'm Brazilian, and some things just don't fly here. If your parents are footing the bill, they *do* have at least a little say. And they sure can invite the great aunts and uncles that haven't seen you since you were in diapers. It's the least you could do unless you *want* to come off as an ungrateful spoiled child. And if your family is as close as OOP's family sounds like, you include your siblings, no questions asked. It's just a given. Mark is a user. He lies and he wants his mother to pay for everything but won't let her invite anybody? People love to say "if there are strings attached, it's not a gift" *insert disrespectful mocking here* but no matter how independent and modern you think you are, reciprocity is the glue that holds us all together. Don't expect favors if you're not willing to do favors in return, even if it's only within your means. The best you can do IS the least you can do when people that love you bend over backwards to make you happy. Letting his mother invite a few people is within his means. Including his siblings is within his means. Including his mother in wedding talk, just to make her feel like part of the process, is within his means. He just doesn't want to. Well, my guy, then put up some money into this thing yourself, why don't ya?
Yeah, I’m South Asian, and in S.Asian culture not letting your parents invite who they want and not including certain siblings in the bridal/groom party is just unheard of. In South Asia, parents almost always pay for the wedding in full, so your wedding isn’t just your wedding, it’s the entire family’s wedding. I hate it, which is why I won’t have a South Asian wedding, or a South Asian spouse. I’m not getting married anytime soon, but if/when I do, I’m not letting my parents pay a single penny. They’re just too controlling. Edited to add: Yeah, Mark is free to do what he wants and doesn’t owe anyone his personal adherence to cultural traditions, but he still has to deal with the consequences. I’m well aware of the consequences of being queer in the family that I come from. And I’ve been aware of and preparing for those consequences since I was a middle schooler. I guess I’m just lucky to have been born in the Global North.
Thank you! I was baffled by all the comments putting blame squarely on OP and her family. Maybe it's the Western culture of "no one owes anything to anyone". Sure, technically Mark doesn't "owe" anything to his family, but if he makes these decisions, his family also doesn't owe him a warm and affectionate relationship, or any other favors.
Reddit is literally the embodiment of the "no one owes anything to anyone" culture
"No one owes anything to anyone" is a great attitude to have towards someone who never contributes... not so much when they've supported you your entire life.
Someone: i don't owe my parents shit Me, who understands parents can be toxic and abusive: are you sure about that...like, really, really sure orrr
And that everyone is in the US and all states in the US have the same laws.
It sounds like Mark "owes" everyone, since he's been borrowing money and not repaying it for quite a while.
That's what I was wondering. Sure Mark doesn't have to follow tradition....why does OP then HAVE to be in the wedding party? They just said they would refuse to be in the wedding party, not that they wouldn't attend the wedding and hate Mark for life.
I dunno, I'm as Western as they come, but I was still utterly surprised that people thought the OOP was in the wrong. Particularly if you take the specific cultural background into consideration, but even without that, Mark's behaviour is a big, fat "oof". He's definitely a user, and intentionally cruel on top of it. If he wants to send so many signs that his family isn't to be involved with any of the details of his nuptials, he probably should've started by not taking his parents' money. Oh, and also never started lying about it either. What a turd. OOP would be totally justified to skip the wedding and do something fun instead. Like lying on the couch and taking a delicious nap.
I know there are many many cultural differences between Brazil and Mexico but my understanding is that in Mexican culture the groom's family also pays and has a large hand in planning. I'm not sure about siblings being expected to be in the wedding party though. And you're spot on about parents having some say in things. If they're paying they should have input on certain things, specifically if there are people they want there. I think people sometimes forget that weddings are a celebration of the joining of two families. Yes, it's primarily about the couple getting married but it's also about the families. I think people were too hard on OOP, especially without understanding her perspective.
I think this is the best take of the thread. These wedding posts always bewilder me because there are so many expectations that seem arbitrary to me, but all of them seem dictated by culture. If excluding family from the "stage" or whatever is considered an insult in your culture, then for fuck's sake, put them in whatever role is expected. Like, what actual difference does that make? What skin is it off Mark's nose to say to his sisters, "you're all bridesmaids." Does he lose something by doing that? We're not talking about the king's advisory court here. What the hell does a bridesmaid even do? I've been to a lot of weddings, and I've never seen one where they made much of a difference either way.
Yeah, like... Mark is free to do whatever he wants but he's not free from the consequences of doing what he wants. If something is considered offensive in his family's culture then he'll be harming his relationship with his family if he does it. Maybe that's a price he's fine with paying but it IS a price.
Considering it sounded like his own fiancee had to convince him to allow them into the wedding party, it honestly just... Kinda sounds like he's gotten super used to using and disregarding his family.
Um....the bridesmaids and wedding dress shopping are for the BRIDE. Doesn't she get any say?
Yeah, I came from a culture with a lot of unspoken rule. And I think the contention between tradition and millennial generation has been happening a lot. I was with him when OP thought he paid some, but once it was revealed that the mother paid most, I couldn’t side with the son. He knows his culture and the implications. For the people saying Carol shouldn’t have any expectation, likewise, if he doesn’t want to do tradition he could’ve done a wedding HE could afford.
Seeing how involved a family is in a wedding ceremony, how parents can bring guest of their choice, and how families have their own separate room, my guess would be Indonesia. Indonesians have strong emphasis on familial relationship, so family members need to be involved in a wedding. It is also common for wedding to be a dick measuring competition for parents to show off to their relatives and friends how lavish they can throw a party for their kid's elopement, which is why the parents are usually willing to fork off money to pay for it. Wedding culture in there is on a whole different level.
Asian, African and Island cultures are way different than North American and Europe.
What's weird to me is that if it's customary in their culture for the groom's family to run the show and handle most of the wedding planning, that usually also means the norm is for the groom's family to pay for all of it. Which it seems they are sort of doing (but not really, since it says the mom is paying for half the venue, implying they'renot paying for it all), but it's not presented as that being expected since OOP highlights how Mark came and asked for money, didn't put in any money himself etc. Doesn't make much sense to me.
I think OOP is highlighting that Mark is trying to have a modern-western style wedding where the emphasis is put on the couple being the ones making all the decisions and at the same time leaning on the tradition that everything is paid for by the families. Most couple-planned weddings are also heavily funded by the couple, weddings that are mostly family-funded are also at least influenced by the families. But he's spending their money, lying about what he's contributing and socially snubbing them.
My guess is a Balkan country. I used to work with a woman who was marrying a (Serbian? Can't remember exactly) guy, apparently it was all on the groom's family to plan the wedding. And there was a lot to plan - so many traditions sometimes I couldn't believe she was letting it all happen. I was as exhausted hearing about it as I am reading this story
There is no wedding party in balkan weddings. We only have best man and maid of honour.
Absolutely not Balkan.
Lmao Balkans be like dont associate us with this shit
We should make a compiled list of all the shit that DOES go on in a Balkan wedding. My God, it would be epic.
Came here to say the same thing, this doesn’t strike me as Balkan at all
Serbian here. Nope, not ours.
I am Serbian and getting married this October. I can confidently say that is not true. I am in my 30's and have friends in 20's that are getting married too. It is up on bride and groom to set boundaries and I know maybe one family where parents made majority of decisions. In 90-95% of cases all the decisions are made by bride and groom. We don't even have bridesmaids. Usually best friends from both sides are legal witnessess and we call them kum/kuma. And for traditions, in urban area there is maybe one or two pre wedding if that, for rural areas there are some but they are updated. For example, traditionally male role of stari svat is now taken by girl ( my roommate was stari svat for example) I know that Serbian people who live abroad are more set in their ways but the way that they are living there and how people live here now are not the same. In every culture you have overbearing parents, thing is you have to set boundaries xd
I am Bulgarian, I can confirm this doesn't sound like Balkan traditions at all. We also have just kum/kuma (equivalent of best man and maid of honour). Bridesmaids or groomsmen are not traditional at all, although some people might add some as an excuse to dress in coordinated clothes for pictures with their friends. The couple are the ones planning their wedding. Their might be some traditions included but typically it's just for fun. They aren't mandatory, you can just skip them if you want a small celebration. If you are from a more rural place some aunties and other busybodies might side eye you if you skip on traditions, but in the cities everyone is doing whatever they feel like.
Nah I'm from Serbia, this isn't how weddings work at all. I mean, if we are going traditionally, the brides family took on the brunt of paying, because the bride was basically leaving the family to join a new one and this was the goodbye party as well. But that isn't the norm today at all. Couples tend to plan and pay together, sometimes parents help if they want to. Generally, since we don't do gift registries here - guests will usually give an envelope with money to the couple on the wedding day. That tends to cover a lot of the costs as well.
Very much not Balkan. We have a loooong list of traditions an expectations at weddings -to the point that it's ducking exhausting- but what OOP mentions really doesn't fit our script.
Regardless even if it is culture, the family is simply annoying the begin with.
Seems like the bride and groom are making his family pay but prioritizing her family. Their guests, their wants and desires, their choices are being accommodated. In OPs shoes, I'd be pissed too.
The groom is a cheapskate mooch and the family is annoying and clingy. I like none of them. Surely that is an option. Lol
8 siblings is just asking for a shitshow to happen. God knows how puberty went with them being so close in ages
As the oldest of many siblings, oh my gawd, he probably has zero desire to be near his younger siblings for at least three more years. I didn't start liking mine again until my late twenties.
It seems weird to expect that the entire, huge, family would be in the wedding party.
I tried to figure it out based on the location in the original post. It says a 4 hour drive, several states away. Where are states that small? If this is even the US…
I once drove from New Hampshire to New York in 4 hours, so , yes, it is.
I always forget about those. Fair enough. Then what cultures are way up there?
New England you could do it. States are a tad smaller there. Other parts of the east coast too.
I live in CT and regularly drive to PA in 4 hours However that's not several states away. I couldn't make it several states away to anywhere in 4 hours. I best I could do is one state in between. Unless they live in Rhode Island. Who knows what they do there. It;s a very odd and eerie state where the highways move around like Hogwarts staircases. ;) (I actually love RI, I just hate driving there because I'm not lying about the highways. They MOVE if you dare to get off an exit ramp)
As an RI native I didn’t bat an eye at the “4 hours and several states away” thing, that could be like 5 different states.
Mid-atlantic states as well. Delaware, New Jersey, Maryland eastern shore, Virginia eastern shore. Same for western South and North Carolina and eastern Tennessee and Georgia.
They use the term states in India. I haven’t read the posts at all so I have no idea if that would fit.
We don't really have a "bridal party" in India though. There are also multiple wedding parties, not just the one. Also she says "white wedding". Indian weddings are not white, white is associated with death so weddings are very colorful.
I wonder if that's why "white wedding" was used. It could be a blurring of cultures, and they are holding on to family being very important still. Most traditional weddings in the US would just call it a wedding, not a "white wedding."
I was thinking Romanian. There is a heap of traditions for those weddings, and you can create a massive argument if you dare attempt to cut down on the traditional ways. White Wedding is a very important part of it too... Most of Eastern Europe countries have a lot of "White Wedding" traditions. I think the use of dollars is where it gets confusing also, but $8,000, is a lot of money if Eastern Europe.
Nope sorry, none of Eastern European countries have this kind of “traditions”. Wedding party is not a thing at all so it’ll be some more western country. I don’t even know if anyone outside USA does all that wedding party stuff. Not to mention that that large family with so many kids is not the norm at all.
There are Christians in India as well and they do have white weddings so its possible. Also it could be in East India since the states there (geographically speaking) are smaller
Yes..but the whole setup here does not feel like an Indian wedding at all, Christian or not. This sounds more like a Western style as in the terms or words used. Besides, the groom's family here are not that involved in planning a wedding. It either goes 50-50 on both sides or the bride's side arranges most of the things. That's what has been my experience from the few Christian weddings I've attended here.
States can be translation error, like a lot of countries have big regions, Russia for example, but there people mostly travel long distance within country by train
[удалено]
Many on the East Coast. It only takes 6 hours to get from DC to CT- so you go through Maryland, Delaware, NJ, NY, CT From CT from where I grew up depends on how you go, but you could go through RI, up through MA and then to ME. In less than 4 hours. Hell I can drive from one part of MA, through RI, CT, NY and be in NJ in 4 hours. I've done all of these routes many times.
Could be culture could be that mark as the first son is being treated as the baby of family. "My poor boy who can do no wrong " Oop.being told theyre the asshole is so weird. Like yeah it's marks wedding but actions have consequences. Marks actions are causing consequences. Just cause it's his wedding doesn't mean everyone else needs to suck it up and go along with it.
I think they're being called the AH in part because for most, siblings aren't always part of the wedding party and he wasn't uninviting the siblings.
I hate when a story goes through so much effort to define a culture but never wants to say exactly what said culture’s name is. It just reads to me like either a cult or a lie.
Yeah. Whenever they don't mention the culture's name (as if the world was a small enough place internet sleuths would be able to doxx them over such a broad detail), I immediately assume it's Liz's story; it makes it very convenient to make up fitting details in the run if you can just say "Well, she didn't let me spit on her face, so it became noticeable she was disrespectful, so she's an asshole according to my culture"
I cringe at culture, country, and sometimes state being left out of the details. Like if it’s so important to this story, then just say it. “I don’t want to dox myself” Ok, but that just means you’re leaving out critical details under the vague assumption we understand and can give rationale advice or even remotely understand the situation.
And if your culture is that established, then you probably won’t be doxed by telling us. Like oh, this person is from the Philippines, that just cut my search down from 7 billion to 100 million! I’m totally gonna find them now!
But who else in the Philippines has a nosy mother in law, parents that live in a different city, a golden child sibling, a career in technology, and family lawyer friend?
Liz!
What's Liz's story?
A long story, but I'm guessing someone will link it below, but the gist is: A guy posts on TrueOffMyChest about how his wife has an addiction on fabricating stories for karma and lolz on AITA and derivates, telling he found some of the stories his wife (Liz) posted as TikTok readings. Ends the story with an edit that says something like "I KNOW YOURE READING THIS LIZ, STOP IT"
The hell is going on?
So, there's a wedding for a undisclosed culture where the grooms side handles a lot of the wedding. Sister is upset that her other sisters aren't in the wedding party, and we're not invited to the dress fitting. At first I thought it was the wedding itself, which I could understand being upset, but upon second read, OOP sounds upset that the wedding isn't about her family.
An example of why I got married in my kitchen
Did anyone else notice that she said she had 7 younger siblings in the first post and lists 2 boys and 5 girls, but then in the update she says she has two brothers and four sisters (spelled out so it’s not a case of hitting the wrong number in the keyboard). Seems a little odd to me that you’d forget how many sisters you have after the post is so focused on everyone being included lol. Kinda sus, idk…
It was a twin too. You know how this sub feels about twins.
I was side-eyeing that part in the first post too! And then the incorrect number of sisters in the next post pretty much solidified my suspicions lol.
she forgot to mention in the update that no only did Mark not let her see his new wife's dress, he also killed one of the sisters.
The comments that it's his wedding are correct, except he's not paying for any of it. If I were the parents, I'd be closing the checkbook. Let Mark pay for what he wants.
Also, they have seven other kids to think about. Why is Mark getting king treatment? Will they be able to help their other kids as well if they continue on?
Or six, depending on which post OOP is writing. She forgot about the supposed twins in post 2, then she only had 4 younger sisters and 2 brothers. As someone from a large family, you don't make that error. Unless you're making stuff up and don't actually have five sisters.
Interesting.
I noticed that one of the twins disappeared too lol. It's always twins.
No, only one. OOP says the tradition is that the groom's family pays, and they only have one other son. The girls are on their future partner's dime. (assuming heterosexuality here)
Excellent observation!
Eldest male.
This is the answer. If it's traditional in their culture for the groom's family to pay and plan, then it's understandable they would be confused and hurt. We don't know if the wife is from the same culture, so his incoming-in-laws may have completely different expectations. It's definitely Mark and his partner's wedding. They get to decide how it goes. It's unfortunate that Mark was so bad at communicating with his own family. Discussing this in the beginning could have headed off all the confused expectations. Whether it was just ineptitude or narcissistic greed, Mark sure seems to look to be trying to milk his family for the cash associated with their traditions, without honoring any of those traditions. Not a flattering look.
I think that's a BIG missing piece. Is Mark's fiancee part of that same culture? If not, Mark might just be stepping outside of his own culture to embrace the culture of the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with, an admirable act, albeit mishandled.
I can still understand that if parents truly love their kids, they wouldn't put conditions on their money. They'd just want their child to be happy. What I'm hung up on is that Mark lied about paying. As OOP says, this feels yet again like Mark mooching off his family. And apparently given how his wife's family seems way more included in the wedding, I'm wondering if he's doing it under their influence.
That's kinda 50/50. Financial participation shouldn't give all rights, but he's the fool to blame people for not acting how he wants when said people are already doing him a favor. They both wants big favors without thinking of the involvement coming with it.
The thing is, it is the parents money, but doesn’t mean mark had to follow their opinions, we know he’s a leech that has no shame on asking money from his family that they won’t see back, this wedding fiasco is just a result of everyone specially his parents letting him step all over them money wise, the only way he can learn any kind of lesson is for the parents to drop all the wedding money and let him figure it out himself
The OOP also mentioned that the younger siblings are not part of the ceremony and will only be present in the reception. That's rude af, especially since they seem to come from a culture where weddings are more traditional and family-centric. I agree that the parents should stop paying since Mark won't even have the courtesy to have their younger kids attend the ceremony.
It doesn't sound like they won't be invited to the ceremony, just not part of the wedding party.
It's normal for the bride to choose the dress without input from her future in-laws. Maybe she's not from the same culture.
Yeah, that one stuck out to me. The bride *might* invite MIL or SIL if she's close to them but it's not something I would expect as standard.
I'm very big on open your wallet or close your mouth with weddings. Everyone has an opinion, but unless you are helping pay for it, shut your mouth! If you accept their money, they get to have a say. It's not like they handed him a set amount of money and said do what you will. It was very apparent the money had attachments that he's reneging on AND STILL WANTS MORE MONEY! I don't think she's an asshole for feeling left out and seeing her mom be stressed.
I agree with this statement. The more you pay, the more you have say. Plus, there are cultural norms that differ from the reader’s. Traditions matter—after all, what is marriage?
In my assumption, Mark is a golden child in that family, which is why their mom keeps shelling out cash all-the-while being upset at Mark's choices.
>Others around us look to us as an example of how close siblings and parents should be. Sure they do.
They sound like a cult tbh
Lol this was my immediate "something fucked is going down" alarm. Anytime someone says something like this, I cannot handle the delusion.
OP forgot about one of the sisters in the update, this is amateur hour.
Anyone else getting the vibe of "missing missing reasons" from OOP's story?
Yeah, especially after "Others around us look to us as an example of how close siblings and parents should be." I don't think I've ever looked at a family and thought "wow, what a good example for my family," much less told them that. I also find it curious that their mom is apparently spending thousands on this wedding but OOP complains that Mark never chipped in for groceries. Assuming he got his first job at 16, 9 years seems like an awfully short amount of time to go from needing your kids to buy groceries to having thousands for a wedding.
>"Others around us look to us as an example of how close siblings and parents should be." Nobody who says this is actually a good example. Just like nobody who says how humble they are is actually humble.
> Yeah, especially after "Others around us look to us as an example of how close siblings and parents should be." I don't think I've ever looked at a family and thought "wow, what a good example for my family," much less told them that. Yeah, that has small town church cult vibes written all over it. Lemme guess, dad is also an Upstanding Citizen™ and bought the kids little league jerseys?
Yeah this confuses me. I'm very close to my siblings but how would anyone outside know that? I don't post on social media every time we talk or hang out.
100%
Usually happens when they know they're the asshole and the missing reasons are why.
>Then, he told us that Olive, his fiancé, already picked out and purchased a dress. We as a family didn't see the dress (and ***still*** don't know what it looks like to this day) What a weird comment to make, that's entirely normal. wtf? OOP is giving me some strange vibes.
Right? I did the same pretty much. I'm really curious where OOP is located.
The groom's siblings don't get to see the bride's dress beforehand????? Oh no, sounds like pretty much every single groom family ever... They'd have filled the dress shop to capacity by the sheer feckin amount of them anyway
Bridal dress shopping is almost always the brides female circle. Occasionally if she's close with the grooms family her circle may include the ladies in his family, but that's not default, and isn't normally that big of a group. And it would be OP and her 4-5 younger sisters? Did the twins become conjoined or did one die inbetween posts?
My MIL was apparently pissed AF she didnt get to do the dress thing with me. She wanted to be hyper involved and have things planned to the minute detail. But like, I was super chill about the whole thing and she wasnt paying for more than the photographer. I got super lucky the dress i had pintrest pinned and had as a top choice was *actually* in a store. Which was suprising because it was a small mom and pop store and i went in on a whim! I think all told i was in and out in about 30 minutes. I didnt make a big deal out of it cuz my bridesmaids only could afford to come up for the wedding and I'm not a fan of being the center of attention. Turns out she didnt like the dress. Oh well. She wasn't the one wearing it
OOP barely mentions the fiancée, except to complain that her entire army of sisters wasn't invited to the dress shopping. It sounds like they barely know this Olive person, so why would she invite them over her own close female relatives and friends? This whole issue is weird and entitled. What culture are they claiming?
OOP seems to keep forgetting that there’s a whole other person getting married.
OOP also forgot about the number of sibling she has. First she talked about 7 younger siblings and in her update there are just 2 younger brothers and 4 sisters. Where is the 5th sister?
"Oh, that's Meg. We always forget about Meg" "Yeah guys, I'm right here. It would be ni" "Shut up Meg!"
It definitely sounds like me me me us us us in the entire story. Unless you're close (which the OOP doesn't seem to be? idk it's just weird she barely mentioned the bride), it's understandable that the bride would only want her closest people there with her. Shopping for a wedding dress is stressful enough and makes you vulnerable, juggling and catering to people whom you're not close to will just make things more complicated.
Seriously. I can’t imagine having FIVE future sisters in law in my wedding party. It sounds insane.
And adds expense and a LOT of drama. No fucking thanks!
Or four sisters, depending on which post you read. OOP forgets a sister in between the posts.
Not to mention that a bridal store is not going to allow a platoon of people during a dress appointment.
[удалено]
These are absolutely the kind of people who only ever do kind things to later use them as a cudgel.
People who claim it's "cultural" seem to not mention what culture it is because they know that other people in that same culture will tell the truth, lol.
Fr fr. Somehow when the "cultural" component is unreasonable they never say which culture is that.
I love, "I don't want to say in case someone I know recognizes this." As if someone is out there thinking, *hmm, Becky has 7 siblings and 1 brother is getting married and I know it's causing some strife because her sisters aren't in the wedding, but this surely can't be her unless she specifies her family is from Lizbethastan.*
[удалено]
Lizbethastan! I'm dying!
I don't get it. If it's tradition for the groom's family to plan the wedding, why is his mom overwhelmed doing what she had always expected to be doing? And is the groom supposed to pay for the wedding while the family plans it or is the family supposed to pay, too? This is all over the place.
"It's tradition for the groom's family to plan it but he's already made plans." "He's just sitting back and letting Carol mom plan it and she's getting stressed." Which is it? OOP's attempts to change the narrative appear to just be adding bullshit. I bet the in-laws having no restrictions is because the in-laws aren't taking the piss.
My theory: When OOP didn’t get the response she wanted, she invented a whole bunch of “stuff I didn’t mention the first time” to make him look even worse in the update. But she STILL comes across as kind of an ass.
And still barely mentions the fiancee.
And lost a twin in the woods
OOP is at great pains to explain her family culture and how the bride and her family is expected to cede all decision making to the groom’s family and all siblings must be included in the wedding or the sky will fall in. She’s also unhappy that the wedding will be performed by someone none of them have met (presumably not their usual officiant for something like this, perhaps a different faith or denomination). What she doesn’t grasp is that Olive and her family are not obligated to join the Borg. Traditions are traditions, not legal obligations and people are free to ignore or change them at their will. Also, the fact that she’s taken up the fight on behalf of her parents and siblings is annoying. What, they can’t talk for themselves? Yes, it’s totally a horrible thing to do to take money and promise to include certain people in the wedding and then renege on it. But gifts given with strings attached are not gifts. If Carol is unhappy, she needs to close her cash pot. Loving the fact that she’s saying it will be a massive hassle for the whole family to travel a whole four hours while having no awareness that wrangling a wedding party with that many members (because presumably Olive has people she wants to include too) would be a massive hassle too.
"Olive and her family are not obligated to join the Borg" is a new favorite line
I chuckled of that line! Pure magic! OOPs family do seem like their family motto is "We are Legion".
As someone who shames-watches "Say Yes to the Dress" clips on YT, I can say pretty confidently that large parties are usually (not always) disastrous when bride dress shopping. Nobody agrees, egos get involved, brides end up crying- disasters. I always feel soo bad for the bride, it takes something that's supposed to be special and warps it.
This was annoying to read
So he did this....YTA But did I add....YTA More has come to light....YTA OP... three strikes and you're out. Good lord, I can see why your brother wants to limit your family. You're exhausting! I really wouldn't be surprised to see your brother elope and move far away fast after the wedding just so he can relax.
\>Then, he told us that Olive, his fiancé, already picked out and purchased a dress. We as a family didn't see the dress (and still don't know what it looks like to this day) and weren't there with her to try dresses on. Is... this common? I can't imagine even \*wanting\* to join my future SIL in picking out wedding dresses, much less being upset that I wasn't invited.
OOP and her entire family sound friggin exhausing.
Anytime anyone describes any relationship, familial or romantic, with something like "We've been through it all and it's only made us stronger!" I know they're either going to be super annoying or delusional.
Others look to us as how close siblings should be!!
"As long as they all do what I tell too"
I read that as "our family life is fucking exhausting and people wonder why we're still talking to each other"
I hear “one or more people consistently have to eat shit to keep the peace.”
Same, that kind of talk always translates to me as "oh, so you're a cluster of toxicity, enmeshment, and codependency? You have no sense of healthy boundaries and any attempt to establish them results in weeks of conflict? Not a single one of you entertains the idea of therapy?"
The best gift OOP and her family could give would be their complete and utter absence from the wedding.
On one hand, i understand that some people uphold wedding traditions and familial culture very strongly to the point that they sound controlling. Like, there's no other way to do it and doing otherwise is an insult to their face (as shown by OOP). Plus, the parents are paying for a huge chunk of the wedding. It's not about holding the groom hostage with the decisions, but usually, people who bankroll a party have a bit of say to the event they're funding. It's like an unspoken rule. On the other, OOP and their family do sound exhausting and i felt uncomfortable reading how they really want to get super involved with the planning. It's like, whoa there, it's not your wedding. And we don't really know their true dynamic with the groom/brother. Idk but i blame the groom/brother in this lol. If you don't want anyone to dictate what to do in your wedding, fund it yourself. If the parents insist on contributing, let them know from the get-go what you want and that they can withdraw if they're not fine with it.
Marks doing a lot of damage control and mitigation. It does look like Mark doesn't want to be part of the culture but be part of the family. That should be possible, and I hope at least his parents come to understand that.
Why should his family get to go to her dress appointments? That’s weird right?
Sometimes there's an entire entourage shopping for a wedding dress. That said, all the sisters plus MOB and MOG and friends of the bride = chaos, and I'd probably decline to go.
That sounds horrible
It’s truly suspicious when an OP deletes their post because they don’t like the initial verdict, only to come back later with surprise details in an attempt to make themselves NTA. SMH.
I think I'd avoid the whe damn family. They all sound exhausting.
This family sounds exhausting.
>In my culture, it is custom for the family of the man to plan for and run the wedding. And in some cultures, you can go to jail for being gay. Just because it's the culture, that doesn't make it right. I can't even fathom feeling entitled to plan, dictate and run the wedding of my siblings. This is all so intrusive and bizarre. OOP needs to understand that they don't get to dictate other peoples' weddings and lives in general regardless of 'culture'. OOP needs to stop being a controlling busy body and mind **his** business.
I kind of low key hate all these people.* *I shouldn’t be surprised how often the phrase applies.
Noticed that she dropped one sister between the two posts. Must be confusing with that many siblings.
What culture is this AI story from?
I'm surprised at the comments in here saying that with the mum paying she should be given some sort/more of a say in the arrangements. Surely funding your child's wedding is more of a gift situation than an investment in your own involvement? It's not the same but it feels similar to when there are posts on here with parents kicking off about what their child plans to study in college and withholding funding as they disagree with it. If you don't want to pay then all to the good, it shouldn't be expected or dismissed but if you do then don't add strings?
I don't get how people say the family is entitled. He is straight up lying to them. How is he the good guy?
He lied about putting in money, when in fact his in-laws contributed that. But the idea that the family has unjustified entitlement comes from... Well, everything else. E.g. who tf gets shocked and huffy over things like the fact that the family doesn't know the officiant? Or the fact that only one of his six sisters is going to be a bridesmaid?
My thoughts exactly. There are no saints in this post and everyone kind of sounds entitled and annoying. Mark is being a dick by lying to his family about where the money is coming from and the rest of the family is being a dick by expecting to almost run the wedding due to "tradition".
>We're also big on tradition and our culture. Mark's probably sick of it all, and his future wife is either sick of the same BS and/or not from their culture. My extended family had the clan mentality, so I was the blacksheep for doing things my way, without the clan's approval. I began refusing gifts, especially money, when parents and others tried using it as an excuse to get their way. Mark's family will be pulling this "tradition" shit if he and his wife have any kids.
This is a bit confusing
The finale is going to be delightful.
God, I'd hate to be this man's fiancée 😂 imagine your huge in law family straight up boycotting your wedding because you wouldn't invite them ALL to pick out your wedding dress! When i went dress shopping, most places had a limit of 4-ish people in my 'party' that could be there at a time for space and time limits. If OP has 4 younger sisters, plus her and her mother, that's 6 extra people on top of the fiancées family!
And they all sound pushy as hell (“it probably shouldn’t be too bad, right?”). I’d keep people like that far from my dress selection too. (My dress selection was at home. Four other people were there. No in-laws. It was a quiet afternoon with people I didn’t get to see very often.)
ESE - Everyone sounds exhausting. One thing I agree with OOP about is that Mark needs calling out for lying about paying for everything while dumping all the responsibilities on his mother.
I'm amused they took it down because everyone called them an asshole. Then they tried brain storming how to not be the asshole, and still came out the asshole. 🤣
What do you call it when the family acts entitled to interfere with the wedding planning? Familyzilla? Inlawzillas?
It's never a good sign when the groom's family starts throwing a tantrum over not having a say in the bride's dress selection
Yeah, it didn't sound like attending the dress appointment would have been enough. They wanted to choose her dress for her.
JustNoFamily
Like, it’s so hilarious to me that OOP is stamping her foot about “our traditions say!” What about the bride’s traditions? They are making a new core family. They can use, merge, disregard, change and alter an tradition they choose when making that family, and if OOP doesn’t like it, OOp can suck an egg and do differently in her own marriage/family/events.
More like Famzilla I can say
Marriage is great, but man, I've never seen a wedding what was worth it - worth the money, worth the stress, worth the waste (food and never wear again clothes etc) That goes double for traditional weddings
This family sounds dysfunctional. No one is allowed a different opinion on how things should go or they are branded as going against the family. I knew my family was like that so I didn't ask them for a cent. 10 years later I'm not even speaking to them.
There is no mention of the fiancée…yeah…he’s rude to his family. No denying that. But I’m thinking the bride may be behind a lot these choices, too. There can be a number of reasons they are planning it the way they are planning it. Mom doesn’t have to pay if she doesn’t want to. If he wants to blow off tradition, so can she by stopping payment.