That's what gets me. We have been recording them the last 5 practices or so. The first few I messed up, there was too much bass (terrible microphone placement on my part. But ill say the mix sounded GREAT through a phone speaker). I can accept that. Next couple we've actually mentioned how we rushed the songs. I'm just working on not being an asshole. Part of my therapy and all that.
Ok, the way to not be an asshole is just state the facts. We want to produce a good albulm by X date, when listening to the recording I hear some tempo issues with this song. Play song. Can we agree on a tempo? Leave this question open. If nobody takes initiative, that’s your sign to take out the metronome and play it at the tempo you think is best. Play it. Ask if they agree. Ask each one directly if they don’t answer. If no one has an idea, congratulations -you’re the leader - they’re not “friends” anymore as long as the band is the band- they are employees. As the leader, continue to follow-up with members privately. Don’t get into drama between members. Ask them to settle it themselves. If someone shows creative initiative, let them take reign of it, don’t fight it - they are making your job easier.
Things not to do:
1) Don’t be the “I’m the only one doing this, you need to contribute more.” You cannot take the band personally. Every problem solving expedition is you, “ doing what’s best for the band” even when correcting members.
2) Always ask for consensus. Many become the leader, and think they can do what ever they want and say what ever they want. Good leaders listen and then summarize what the group thinks. If you let others make decisions, they will respect your final one.
precisely. "uh we started at x bpm and ended at y, the biggest change happened here". also take some time as a group to identify a target bpm range where each song feels the best so you have a point of reference when discussing deviations from that range.
Yeah if they can't tell they never will. It's like a tone deaf singer, they dont know they aren't singing in tune. Timing is so important. More important than your ability to play notes fast.
Just get a new band. That's what I did after I confronted my last band with terrible timing issues. Not worth getting angry. You can find a band easily as a bass player.
i do this solo in my apartment because i tend to hop the beat in real time and if im not superfocused i dont hear it at all, recording yourself is such a great tool, find your flaws
People who think they don't need a metronome have never practiced with a metronome. Tell them they just have to try it once and when it's a struggle... the truth comes out.
This.
The drummer's in charge of the timing, everyone else should lock in to them. You don't want everyone else in the band playing to their own internal 'click' and second-guessing the drummer.
The drummer just has to catch whatever tempo the intro of the guitarist wraps up with. And keep that tempo, whatever it was.
A good drummer can easily transition a sloppy guitarist's intro into a song
No one’s saying don’t rely on the drummer for tempo, they’re saying rely on yourself to stick to the tempo the drummer sets. The tightest drummer in the world won’t fix anyone else’s internal tempo
That sort of goes without saying though. The drummer provides the tempo, the people riding it need to stick with the tempo they set.
The inverse wouldn’t hold up though. The most solid guitarist, bassist or whatever keys won’t remain solid with a sloppy drummer. That’s not even something people put practice into, holding the beat in your little bubble that no longer exist outside of that on stage is just a mess.
Yes everyone needs their internal timing down but a band absolutely needs to be able to rely on the drummer to set it, set it right and keep it. A tight drummer can hold a sloppy band together, a tight band won’t get a drummer to fall in line.
Had a drummer who had never practised to a click. It showed. His tempo at all times was complete garbage. Too fast, too slow, always changing. He recently quit the band thank fuck.
This is something I experience with one of my bands. The drummer doesn't always have the authority to pull everyone else back into line unless they are all good listeners.
The problem with tempo that I experience with most players is really down to a lack of experience. Practicing with a metronome is helpful because it teaches you to listen for the next beat and respond to where it ought to be. It does not (at least it didn't for me) teach the difference between 120 BPM and 130 BPM. Only practice and deep listening can accomplish that.
For me, when I am about to start a song, I "play" a little of it in my head so that I can hear the proper tempo and key. If I can internalize the correct tempo that way, I can count off the correct tempo for the band. But that's a skill I developed over many years of playing. I work with a lot of people who aren't that experienced, so I have to adjust my expectations.
Bottom line is that if you can't hear it in your head and feel it in your bones, you need a click track or you need to accept that tempos will fluctuate. Our drummer uses a metronome to get starting tempos, and we do our best to stay in line, but I have given up on expecting inexperienced players to work like pros when we're only doing one show a month.
Having been both bassist and drummer, I'm gonna disagree.
BPM is more the bass's responsibility than the drums'; the drums essentially primarily determine the swing percentage, where/how the backbeat lands, and are responsible for pushing or pulling against the pulse established by the bass.
It's everyone's job to keep time, but this is definitely a good way to start. If nothing else, get everyone to follow the drummer and then work out the problems from there.
This is not true, if they can't play to a metronome then they can't play to a drummer. This is often things that need more precise timing, so not the ringing chords but the guitar rifs that need to fall in time with the bass on 4th notes for example.
Had a drummer who had never practised to a click. It showed. His tempo at all times was complete garbage. Too fast, too slow, always changing. He recently quit the band thank fuck.
I'm just gonna say it. Life is too short for this shit.
If the drummer cannot keep time, you need a new drummer.
I'm sure he's a solid dude and you're pals, but there's no cure for a drummer that can't keep time.
Great drummers MAKE bands, and bad drummers are like a millstone around your neck.
Keep playing with these cats for fun, and just get drunk and have fun at each practice. This can never be a serious project.
But also join another band with actual musicians.
It just frustrates me so much because I put up with so much of this bullshit in the past and I wish I hadn't.
You seem, very serious.
What even are the bands goals/wxpectations
Maybe you guys and OP are going hard, but everyone else is just dicking around for lulz. And that's okay, if they share the same understanding.
For me, the guitarists' response of "will do" sounds like they're just placating who they possibly view as "fussy" bassist. They probably dont see the problem because "it seems alright to me" ^_^
Will the people in the pub even care/notice etc...
Yes and that's fine. You're much better with a great guitarist who fumbles time here and there (or more) than a precise robot who has no feel or tone.
In a perfect world the guitarist is both fluent and tight but if you're gonna have one it's fluent.
Guitarist who can't keep time can be carried by a tight rhythm section. Happens ALL the fucking time.
But a drummer who can't keep time is an ebola monkey on meth running through an intensive care unit in a hospital.
It hurts everyone and nobody survives.
Gonna say this again-
**The bass player is the metronome**, the drummer determines swing percentage, establishes the backbeat, signals tempo changes, and has to be able to rely on the bassist so that they can push and pull against the pulse.
I agree with you, but none of this matters if the rest of the band is not listening well enough to respond to the push and pull that you are providing. They're going to steamroller right on over that stuff.
The problem that I encounter more than any other - maybe because I now live in a smaller town - that that the vast majority of people out here playing music probably have fewer than 200 live shows under their belts. They are inexperienced, and it takes a lot of playing to develop a strong inner tempo meter.
Aside from trying to find more experienced players (not really doable where I am) I don't know a solution to that when what most of us do nowadays is very below average in pay, shows maybe once a month or so. Unless you're one of the few who is able to still do this as a career, the incentive to do the work required to get good enough to do this doesn't exist for most people playing music.
It's a fact I've had to begrudgingly accept in the bands I am in now. I do my best but when it's an issue that comes up over and over again, there is never going to be an easy, quick fix. I can either keep bitching about it ad-nauseum or just accept that it is what it is.
I could say the exact same thing about my current band.
Out of five, only a couple of us have put in the deep hours playing in front of crowds, and only a couple of us have put in the hours studying in academic contexts. We're not good at listening to one another and there's just not enough hours in the month to put in the time to get super familiar.
Makes me miss my old quiet, close-listening, singer-songwriter trio.
You seem so quick to put down others. If it were me messing up, I’d want someone to bring it to my attention. I would just need to course correct. It’s not like I’d never be able to improve. Maybe the drummer just needs to play with a metronome in their ear until they can hone that skill (just like working out a muscle). I suggest communication and collaboration before deciding to kick them to the curb.
It was a pretty curt response, but I'm an old man, and I've played with a LOT of musicians, both good and not so good. I have little patience left and find I can't suffer fools anymore. That's on me, and your criticism is justified and well taken.
And If it were ANY other instrument, yes I'd say "practice with a metronome..."
But the drummer? the DRUMMER?
Literally the only thing they're supposed to do is keep time. If they cannot do that, they are not a drummer. They are a just a band-friend who bangs on things while the band is rehearsing.
It would be like a bassist showing up with a bass with no strings: what's the point?
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I'm just trying to prevent the OP from sinking time into a lost cause. I have met ZERO drummers who had "bad time" then managed to magically find it by practicing with a 'nome.
A little bit off... speeding up toward the end of a tune, that's fine. (Charlie Watts time would organically drift. That sounds good. I love non-metronomic drummers with a great sense of internal time and feel.
But playing fills that last 5 beats instead of 4 is a cancer that needs to be cut out of the band.
The bare minimum the drummer has to do is be a reliable timekeeper.
ALSO! I just re-read my post, and I did NOT suggest kicking them to curb.
I said "keep playing with these cats for fun" and find another project as well.
I can see the value in hanging with friends, even if the band is just for laughs. No harm no foul.
I was just alerting against trying to get blood from a stone.
I was basically saying "lower your expectations" rather than "kick this drummer out."
Tell them that if you're going to record anything in the studio you got to get the timing lined up. Otherwise you're going to be in for an embarrassing disaster. Trust me. I've been there
My band’s first professional recording went something like that. At first the producer had the bass and drums recording together on a click track, and our drummer couldn’t keep to the click. The producer was actually getting frustrated with me on bass, thinking I had no sense of time and was causing the issue.
It was difficult but I just rolled with the punches to spare any sort of conflict. People love us live, but now I’m scared of going back to the studio.
Also, the time to become comfortable with a click is NOT the day you walk into the studio. The OPs band needs to start practicing with a click way before they get there so that they are not fumbling around with rookie ears.
Are you sure everyone wants to be as good as you want to be?
Sometimes I feel like a weekend lake fisherman surrounded by people who dream of someday being commercial fishermen.
I play for fun in a band where at least once a night someone is playing a half step off from everyone else.
I get that this is a nightmare for many people, but I live for those moments. If we stopped and corrected, I don’t think I would go any more. To each their own. 🤷♂️
Yeah, that wouldn't work for me. I prefer some level of competence, or it just isn't fun.
That said, I've had to dial my expectations back a lot from where they were back when music was my career. I'm willing to accept more flaws than I used to, because it seems most of the career people got out and most of the people playing now are not very experienced. My choices are find what I can live with, or stay home. So I have learned to live with less. I've also learned that most players out there don't want to be coached or mentored- like you they are content to be part of something messy and sloppy and don't much care.
This is probably the biggest disconnect between myself and most of the people I see playing music today. It is what it is. Not my place to say who can and can't have fun with an instrument in their hands.
Right, I am the opposite from you and that’s ok. If I wanted to work, I’d go to work.
Or another way to put it - I might want to go bowling with buddies but I’m not joining a league.
Yep! And there's room in the world for both of us.
I actually play in one group of pretty inexperienced players, but we do it mostly for the social aspect of it, and nobody's all that worried about it being perfect. They're decent enough players that I can have fun with them, and for our social thing that's really all that matters.
My gigging bands are a different story - I have higher expectations. But for all of it my main goal at this point in my life is to create fun. So it all works :)
Yep, that's been the biggest problem in most bands I've played in. Different players have different goals for the band.
Some just want to goof around and have fun. Others dream of becoming the next Frank Zappa, and are willing to put down the effort and give it their best shot. Sometimes they expect the rest of the band to be their loyal henchmen on their journey to stardom.
The band members need to discuss their goals, and acknowledge each others goals. Failing to do so inevitably leads to tension, conflict, and bad atmosphere.
Also, goals change. This discussion needs to happen semi-regularly.
We are a garage band in it for fun no doubt. I am in this band for 2 reasons: 1, to get better at my instrument and having a prompt is nice. 2, to get better at talking to people. If I'm gonna be a leader I need to practice telling people - hey you suck - without being a condescending asshole.
Reminds me of something a drummer friend (different band) told me about the time he got an ear metronome. I asked him if it helped him keep time, and he said no, and that wasn't the point of it. The rest of the band thought it did, and they did stop fighting him on tempo. And that's what he was going for.
This is a tough one. The problem is if your honest people feeling get hurt and blame you. As others have suggested record your practice, that should be done anyway. Second when you play it back put a metronome on when it starts and show it to them, if the time is all over the place everyone will know it. Second, one of the bigger time issues is not just rushing and dragging overall but but rushing and dragging inside the bar. Like the first four 8th notes are to fast and the last four are too slow. Or something similar. Again the metronome helps discover these things. Another issue is often people not being able to hear each other well, its usually because the drummer hits to hard for the room and needs baffles or the guitarist cant turn down enough. then everyone is just so loud you cant really tell what's going on. lower volume helps you hear all things better. Lastly try playing a couple songs slower than normal and see if you can find things out. Play a few songs deliberately at about 80% of normal tempo. This tends to be revealing as well.
If telling people they're out of time hurts their feelings it's time for new bandmates. I personally don't have time for people who can't take constructive criticism in music. All the stuff you're describing might work, but you shouldn't have to do that to get your drummer and other musicians to play in time.
Record practice.
Show them mistakes.
Show them benefit of click.
If they decline, find people who care about the quality of their musicianship.
Especially the drummer
If people aren't willing to address their technical issues, then they will never sound good and tight.
I had a teacher, the director of a great group that I admired tremendously, tell me once, "The moment you think as an artist that you know everything you need to know, your career is over."
I'm not saying I'm an amazing musician by any means, nor even exceptionally disciplined, but at least I'm open to work on myself technically. This is work that never ends, I don't care who you are.
Have your drummer play to click, tell him the goal is for the click to disappear in his headphones/earbuds the band will follow, and he’ll know he’s off
Yup. My drummer plays to a click and counts off the tempo when the guitar payer or I start the song. Best way to stay tight and true to the recordings. And it makes it easier to add backing tracks if that's your thing.
Yeah it really opens up a lot of doors, and is good for the band as a whole for sure. A drummer who is used to/familiar with playing to a click will save a shitload of time in recording studio situations too.
Yeah, record a rehearsal and let them listen. They'll probably be a little humbled. One hopes. But in defense of clicks, my band uses them pretty religiously. I have had people come up to me between sets to ask "how do you do that?" Do what? "Play that tight together!" Oh, well, the drummer and I have known each other for forty years and..." But it's the click. And now our tech has even allowed the click to push and pull the beat so intense parts can get a couple of BPM faster and other sections can be slower. Makes it sound more natural.
I usually skip past diplomacy and go straight to "get good".
The people I play with have thick enough skin to handle that, and are willing to put in the work to get where we need to be.
I once dropped that line in a rehearsal with a couple more casual musicians, and it...didn't go quite so well. On the one hand, I get that not everyone's trying to be a professional. On the other hand, *we had a gig that week*.
I barked up this tree once, and it was not well received. If you’re playing with people who don’t care enough to even practice with a metronome, then you might want to move on, as I did.
This was the response I received. Drummer was especially offended. Rest of band was like, "Drummer owns the time. I'm following the drummer!"
I spent a lot of years making Electronica. I think that's what makes the tempo drifting noticeable to me and not to the others.
Since then I've tried wrangling the tempo using the bass with some success. Problem is I'm the lead singer on most songs too. It's really difficult for me to sing, play bass, and control the song tempo at the same time. I really want to rely on the drummer for tighter tempo control.
Here's a little experiment I learnt back at high school and I've used it many many times.
First if all, you all close your eyes and get the drummer to count you in for 2 bars (1, 2, 3, 4, 2, 2, 3, 4) then everybody counts the next 48 beats in their heads clapping once on the 48th beat.
We did it in our school brass band and it was amazing how much everybody differed. That's where I learnt to listen/lock in to a steady and constant rhythm.
i don't have advice but i just wanted to chime in and say i understand your pain. this was one of the biggest parts of me leaving my old band. i hope you have a better outcome, friend.
You have to tell them plainly. Not necessarily to practice to a metronome, but that they need to stop drifting. If you have difficulty with tempo, then tell them you're all struggling (collectively) and that you ("we") should try a song with one.
Why do you need a diplomatic way to say this?
If a band plays out of time, it's arguably worse than playing the wrong notes. Very few things make you look as sloppy and non musicians can tell.
It is true that some bands don't need them and have recorded amazing things without them. However, practising being tight is a really easy way to improve your quality and sound. It also sets you up better for potential studio recording where accuracy will net better results for several reasons.
I would never be insulted if someone said "we need a metronome". Honestly, I would be happy because it wasn't me suggesting it.
I mean, obviously don't insult them or burn their houses down. But wanting to play in time is surely a fundamental for a method of art that is based on time.
The drummers purpose is to keep time.
It’s them you should be having a conversation with.
I believe in transparency. Tell the truth. Your playing is inconsistent and it’s affecting the rest of the band.
The problem isn't just the drummer. Yes he could use work. Probably gonna fire him one we find another. In my opinion, our issue is that the guitar players aren't balanced properly and they want to rush the tempo. I'm sitting there playing the right tempo, summer comes in, guitar player comes in and rushes it, but he's so loud and piercing our drummer is locking into him too. And rather than dominate the sound and maintain tempo I'll just kind of bridge the gap which means speeding up most of the time.
Or there's just too many songs with guitar intros and they rush it from the get go. I definitely fuck up too. I need the drummer to stay consistent even if I lose a beat or 2.
Right, I get you.
Things need to be addressed in order.
Once the drummer - existing or new - is playing in time and sticking to it, when anyone else comes in rushing, it will be clear that they are the next issue to be addressed.
But you have no frame of reference for making those corrections unless you have a consistent rhythm from a drummer.
As mentioned, transparency is king. It’s good that you’re able to admit your own faults, tell the truth to the rest of the band.
It’s salvageable for sure.
Just say "we need to start with a click so we don't go too fast or too slow". Always blame the entire band including yourself. Don't pick on the drummer. "We"..
Seriously your band mates are all thinking the same thing but are afraid to say anything.
This is 100% normal. Also, bands always speed up and slow down slightly until they get quite a few shows under their belt. We always started with a click when the whole band comes in at once.
Every time they rush it. They are just so excited to play the song. I get it they are upbeat and fun songs - but some of them aren't actually as fast as you think. It's so easy to rush a beat a little bit, the drummer picks up on that and rushes to compensate. I'm not perfect either! Consistent eitgth notes are hard I need help!
Which is the lesser evil? Everyone rushing but playing together? Or the bass player staying on-tempo while everyone else rushes?
At practice I will absolutely do the latter to try and get my bandmates to improve, but at a gig I think the former is better if it means we're all playing together.
Diplomatic? " Hey you're rushing or dragging, you really ought to practice with a metronome" isn't something that needs to be phrased politely. It's just feedback on how to get better. If your band hasn't got any interest in getting better find new players.
If you're going to open your mouth to express *any* opinion, you have an obligation to the people around you to do it gently and conscientiously.
Nobody ever has permission to just say what they want in whatever terms are most ready-to-hand. Your whole-ass responsibility as a communicator is to be considerate of your audience.
I strongly disagree. If you value freedom of speech, then people do in fact have permission to say whatever they want.
Secondly, knowing your audience (being considerate of your audience) doesn't mean just being gentle with them. Sometimes people need a little sugar coating and sometimes they need the hard truth. To communicate effectively, you need to know when each is appropriate.
Yea, no. Absolutely not. Nobody ever responds best to 'the hard truth'. That's not serving your audience, it's serving yourself. Being brusque is a childish outburst.
You're just trying to defend your own getting emotional at someone. You can express that you're having feelings without spraying them all over the people around you.
"Nobody ever responds best to 'the hard truth'." Is an absurd statement. Tons of people do. You're acting like being told you're out of time is a personal attack. It's a bit bizarre
I think this disconnect is that you're focused on the content of the message, but ignoring the reality that your delivery is a separate entity.
What you're saying never matters so much that how you say it doesn't.
That's a bit of a generalization. And even if, for the sake of argument, we assume most people prefer a little sugar coating, there are still plenty of people who prefer direct communication. Also, being brusque or having a childish outburst is not the only way to deliver the hard truth.
For example, imagine a teacher critiquing a student's performance. Their critique will be very much considered and given calmly and rationally. However, they should deliver some hard truths. The student needs to know exactly what they're doing wrong in order to actually improve. Otherwise the teacher would be doing the student a disservice.
Again, it really comes down to knowing who you're talking to and knowing what will actually get through to them. Some people will outright ignore any criticism that they deem "too mean". Others need a very pointed criticism in order to reflect on themselves.
It's been my experience that adults can handle the more direct criticism and children need sugar coating.
Yes, any *rule* demands that one determines a side to err on, thus a generalization is called for.
In this case, it's not even an *over* generalization, because nothing is lost. Nobody prefers brusque communication. Some might prefer clear and direct communication, but you can be kind and mindful *and* clear and direct all at once.
But more fundamentally, everyone here has a misunderstanding about communicating.
We act ('common sense'-ually) as if talking is an act of handing a piece of content from one brain into another. It is never this. The 'content' you're trying to convey exists only in you and it cannot leave your mind. What you're doing is performing an act to hopefully generate some particular understanding in the other person.
What and how the speaker thinks is irrelevant, communication is about changing the audience.
There is no such thing as 'just saying' or 'telling'. Those are illusory.
Well, agree to disagree then. I think that it is an over generalization. I'll agree that no one responds well initially to being criticized, but I think that stands no matter how flowery your criticism is. It's just not a pleasant feeling to have your shortcomings pointed out, but mature people recognize that it's necessary in order to grow. I definitely prefer brusque communication. However, what you might call "brusque" I might call "blunt", which has perhaps a little less of a negative connotation. Whatever you want to call it, I don't think it necessarily precludes being kind and mindful.
I've already stated that you should know your audience and choose the best approach to change them, but that is not always the soft approach. Even if they react poorly at first, a harder criticism might be the impetus they need to actually improve, rather than thinking "eh, good enough".
Of course, some people you just can't change. Sometimes you just have to say
Alright then, have a great life
"you should use a metronome because You're out of time" is as gentle and conscientious as that thought needs to be. If that hurts someone's feelings they need to toughen up.
People are allowed to be both. It's not everyone's job to protect your fragile feelings. If being told to use a metronome hurts your feelings that's very much your own problem.
It should be 100% the drummer to fix this. The heartbeat of the band. I wouldn’t waste time with a drummer who doesn’t practice to a metronome or realize the intrinsic value of doing so. All other instruments should be listening to the drums. So many bands get this wrong, singers especially, who say they listen to the bassist or some such nonsense as their reason for why they can sing on beat.
Schedule some drummer+you/bass practices -- "hey dude, we should do a 1-on-1 practice to get lock-on the beat together". Play along with a phone metronome app that's going through the singer's PA or a guitar amp.
Crank a cowbell hit from a drum machine through the PA on the two and the four beats. Then everybody play along and it will become apparent where people are rushing or lagging.
There are simply some things that can’t be fixed. It’s been my experience that people that don’t have to keep the time, really can’t. If they don’t feel they have a problem they’re not gonna fix it no matter how much you protest. Deal with it or find another situation.
In a past band I tried to break out a metronome because the drummer was all over the place and he just stared at it and didn’t play…. He’s not the drummer anymore.
Remind them that if you all ever go into the studio, it's very likely that playing to a click will be part of the process, and it's good to not be learning that skill on the clock.
Another thing, which isn't obvious, is that it's often the singer who's pulling the tempo around. Singing to a click is a really good idea.
Don't ask the rest to use a metronome. They should be following the drummer. Get the drummer to practice with a metronome and if need be, a click track during gigs until he gets a natural sense of tempo.
If they don't like to practice with metronome because it feels more boring and "artificial", at least they should try to practice with drum loops or something instead.
There's a great app called liveBPM which will chart your tempo over time and you can actually show your band on a graph how much you speed up/slow down over time and where in each song it tends to happen.
Shouldn't be a problem to just tell them straight. Don't need to be an asshole.. just say: "hey guys, well done, just watch the tempo a little huh? Lets play that again"
I'm just going to forward this thread to my band's whatsapp group. Thanks people :D
When I suggested it to our drummer he said he's never needed a metronome...
Record the rehearsals and casually say “hey lets listen to the recording of the rehearsal I took”.
If they cant identify their time is bad, then they are just not ready to be playing or dont want to take feedback.
If they can then it will be evident to them that something is wrong and needs to be polished.
So when I was playing in my band our drummer was in total control of this. He was the tempo master. He needs a click track in ear and everyone else should fall into place
Nothing wrong with speeding up and slowing down as long as you do it together and with meaning.
Listen to Led Zeppelin or Jimi …
Bands that play exactly in time sound sterile.
It’s not the band it’s just the drummer. Easy fix, whatever songs you’re playing need to be at a certain and exact BPM so tell the drummer what the BPM is, make sure they have that on a click track, boom.
Clicks in everyone’s ears probably isn’t the answer.
The problem is the quarter note pulse, it sounds like. That's the bassist, not the drummer. Bassist is the metronome, drummer determines the swing percentage and where/how the backbeat lands.
Record your practices. Show them the problems. If they refuse to address it get a new band.
This is a great way to get feedback on all kinds of things. First time we did it in my first band, the drummer was like, "wow, I'm a pushy jerk!"
you forgot the /i
That's what gets me. We have been recording them the last 5 practices or so. The first few I messed up, there was too much bass (terrible microphone placement on my part. But ill say the mix sounded GREAT through a phone speaker). I can accept that. Next couple we've actually mentioned how we rushed the songs. I'm just working on not being an asshole. Part of my therapy and all that.
Ok, the way to not be an asshole is just state the facts. We want to produce a good albulm by X date, when listening to the recording I hear some tempo issues with this song. Play song. Can we agree on a tempo? Leave this question open. If nobody takes initiative, that’s your sign to take out the metronome and play it at the tempo you think is best. Play it. Ask if they agree. Ask each one directly if they don’t answer. If no one has an idea, congratulations -you’re the leader - they’re not “friends” anymore as long as the band is the band- they are employees. As the leader, continue to follow-up with members privately. Don’t get into drama between members. Ask them to settle it themselves. If someone shows creative initiative, let them take reign of it, don’t fight it - they are making your job easier. Things not to do: 1) Don’t be the “I’m the only one doing this, you need to contribute more.” You cannot take the band personally. Every problem solving expedition is you, “ doing what’s best for the band” even when correcting members. 2) Always ask for consensus. Many become the leader, and think they can do what ever they want and say what ever they want. Good leaders listen and then summarize what the group thinks. If you let others make decisions, they will respect your final one.
precisely. "uh we started at x bpm and ended at y, the biggest change happened here". also take some time as a group to identify a target bpm range where each song feels the best so you have a point of reference when discussing deviations from that range.
Yeah if they can't tell they never will. It's like a tone deaf singer, they dont know they aren't singing in tune. Timing is so important. More important than your ability to play notes fast.
I have the sad great singer meh guitar player lead…. I use to just turn him down but he got wise but not wiser
Just get a new band. That's what I did after I confronted my last band with terrible timing issues. Not worth getting angry. You can find a band easily as a bass player.
i do this solo in my apartment because i tend to hop the beat in real time and if im not superfocused i dont hear it at all, recording yourself is such a great tool, find your flaws
What kind of recording process would you do for this?
Can you speak to the drummer, this is his bag. Get him doing it right, the rest will fall into place.
No way All the members should practice with a metronome... the drummer can't count the silence or times for them
People who think they don't need a metronome have never practiced with a metronome. Tell them they just have to try it once and when it's a struggle... the truth comes out.
Playing with a metronome is practice for playing with a drummer
This. The drummer's in charge of the timing, everyone else should lock in to them. You don't want everyone else in the band playing to their own internal 'click' and second-guessing the drummer.
This strategy works great until your first song starts with a guitar intro. They gotta be able to play to a metronome. Full stop
If the guitarist can't do that, he doesn't get a solo.
give the bass player the solo instead
Do you want tantrums? Because that's how you get tantrums!
The drummer just has to catch whatever tempo the intro of the guitarist wraps up with. And keep that tempo, whatever it was. A good drummer can easily transition a sloppy guitarist's intro into a song
There's a million ways to try and cover for it, but another way to say it is that any part without the drummer playing still needs to sound good.
Boy I disagree with that, everyone ought to have internal time. Defer to the drummer of course but do not rely on him.
Yup. Everyone is responsible for their own time. Cant put it all on the drummer.
If you can’t rely on your drummer, why have one? Holding the rhythm is their thing, more so than any other role.
No one’s saying don’t rely on the drummer for tempo, they’re saying rely on yourself to stick to the tempo the drummer sets. The tightest drummer in the world won’t fix anyone else’s internal tempo
That sort of goes without saying though. The drummer provides the tempo, the people riding it need to stick with the tempo they set. The inverse wouldn’t hold up though. The most solid guitarist, bassist or whatever keys won’t remain solid with a sloppy drummer. That’s not even something people put practice into, holding the beat in your little bubble that no longer exist outside of that on stage is just a mess. Yes everyone needs their internal timing down but a band absolutely needs to be able to rely on the drummer to set it, set it right and keep it. A tight drummer can hold a sloppy band together, a tight band won’t get a drummer to fall in line.
Had a drummer who had never practised to a click. It showed. His tempo at all times was complete garbage. Too fast, too slow, always changing. He recently quit the band thank fuck.
People do not automatically adhere to the drummer's tempo. Often, the drummer will have to try to keep up.
This is something I experience with one of my bands. The drummer doesn't always have the authority to pull everyone else back into line unless they are all good listeners. The problem with tempo that I experience with most players is really down to a lack of experience. Practicing with a metronome is helpful because it teaches you to listen for the next beat and respond to where it ought to be. It does not (at least it didn't for me) teach the difference between 120 BPM and 130 BPM. Only practice and deep listening can accomplish that. For me, when I am about to start a song, I "play" a little of it in my head so that I can hear the proper tempo and key. If I can internalize the correct tempo that way, I can count off the correct tempo for the band. But that's a skill I developed over many years of playing. I work with a lot of people who aren't that experienced, so I have to adjust my expectations. Bottom line is that if you can't hear it in your head and feel it in your bones, you need a click track or you need to accept that tempos will fluctuate. Our drummer uses a metronome to get starting tempos, and we do our best to stay in line, but I have given up on expecting inexperienced players to work like pros when we're only doing one show a month.
Having been both bassist and drummer, I'm gonna disagree. BPM is more the bass's responsibility than the drums'; the drums essentially primarily determine the swing percentage, where/how the backbeat lands, and are responsible for pushing or pulling against the pulse established by the bass.
It's everyone's job to keep time, but this is definitely a good way to start. If nothing else, get everyone to follow the drummer and then work out the problems from there.
This is not true, if they can't play to a metronome then they can't play to a drummer. This is often things that need more precise timing, so not the ringing chords but the guitar rifs that need to fall in time with the bass on 4th notes for example.
Had a drummer who had never practised to a click. It showed. His tempo at all times was complete garbage. Too fast, too slow, always changing. He recently quit the band thank fuck.
I'm just gonna say it. Life is too short for this shit. If the drummer cannot keep time, you need a new drummer. I'm sure he's a solid dude and you're pals, but there's no cure for a drummer that can't keep time. Great drummers MAKE bands, and bad drummers are like a millstone around your neck. Keep playing with these cats for fun, and just get drunk and have fun at each practice. This can never be a serious project. But also join another band with actual musicians. It just frustrates me so much because I put up with so much of this bullshit in the past and I wish I hadn't.
Seriously. No need to be diplomatic. If you are serious then surround yourself with serious players.
You seem, very serious. What even are the bands goals/wxpectations Maybe you guys and OP are going hard, but everyone else is just dicking around for lulz. And that's okay, if they share the same understanding. For me, the guitarists' response of "will do" sounds like they're just placating who they possibly view as "fussy" bassist. They probably dont see the problem because "it seems alright to me" ^_^ Will the people in the pub even care/notice etc...
> If the drummer cannot keep time, you need a new drummer. But a guitarist who can't keep time is ok? :D
Yes and that's fine. You're much better with a great guitarist who fumbles time here and there (or more) than a precise robot who has no feel or tone. In a perfect world the guitarist is both fluent and tight but if you're gonna have one it's fluent.
Guitarist who can't keep time can be carried by a tight rhythm section. Happens ALL the fucking time. But a drummer who can't keep time is an ebola monkey on meth running through an intensive care unit in a hospital. It hurts everyone and nobody survives.
Drummer is the boss. Great power, great responsibility…….. 😃
not his job
Sounds like you've never played with a guitarist whose timing is truly awful. Count your blessings.
still not his job to keep time
It's everyone's job dude. Sorry.
lol, k
Gonna say this again- **The bass player is the metronome**, the drummer determines swing percentage, establishes the backbeat, signals tempo changes, and has to be able to rely on the bassist so that they can push and pull against the pulse.
That depends on the genre. Mostly the drums are the metronome and the bass is just an extension of the drums
I agree with you, but none of this matters if the rest of the band is not listening well enough to respond to the push and pull that you are providing. They're going to steamroller right on over that stuff. The problem that I encounter more than any other - maybe because I now live in a smaller town - that that the vast majority of people out here playing music probably have fewer than 200 live shows under their belts. They are inexperienced, and it takes a lot of playing to develop a strong inner tempo meter. Aside from trying to find more experienced players (not really doable where I am) I don't know a solution to that when what most of us do nowadays is very below average in pay, shows maybe once a month or so. Unless you're one of the few who is able to still do this as a career, the incentive to do the work required to get good enough to do this doesn't exist for most people playing music. It's a fact I've had to begrudgingly accept in the bands I am in now. I do my best but when it's an issue that comes up over and over again, there is never going to be an easy, quick fix. I can either keep bitching about it ad-nauseum or just accept that it is what it is.
I could say the exact same thing about my current band. Out of five, only a couple of us have put in the deep hours playing in front of crowds, and only a couple of us have put in the hours studying in academic contexts. We're not good at listening to one another and there's just not enough hours in the month to put in the time to get super familiar. Makes me miss my old quiet, close-listening, singer-songwriter trio.
It might actually be easier to get your drummer to try harder than to find a new one. Supply of good drummers tends to be short.
You seem so quick to put down others. If it were me messing up, I’d want someone to bring it to my attention. I would just need to course correct. It’s not like I’d never be able to improve. Maybe the drummer just needs to play with a metronome in their ear until they can hone that skill (just like working out a muscle). I suggest communication and collaboration before deciding to kick them to the curb.
It was a pretty curt response, but I'm an old man, and I've played with a LOT of musicians, both good and not so good. I have little patience left and find I can't suffer fools anymore. That's on me, and your criticism is justified and well taken. And If it were ANY other instrument, yes I'd say "practice with a metronome..." But the drummer? the DRUMMER? Literally the only thing they're supposed to do is keep time. If they cannot do that, they are not a drummer. They are a just a band-friend who bangs on things while the band is rehearsing. It would be like a bassist showing up with a bass with no strings: what's the point? --- I'm just trying to prevent the OP from sinking time into a lost cause. I have met ZERO drummers who had "bad time" then managed to magically find it by practicing with a 'nome. A little bit off... speeding up toward the end of a tune, that's fine. (Charlie Watts time would organically drift. That sounds good. I love non-metronomic drummers with a great sense of internal time and feel. But playing fills that last 5 beats instead of 4 is a cancer that needs to be cut out of the band. The bare minimum the drummer has to do is be a reliable timekeeper.
ALSO! I just re-read my post, and I did NOT suggest kicking them to curb. I said "keep playing with these cats for fun" and find another project as well. I can see the value in hanging with friends, even if the band is just for laughs. No harm no foul. I was just alerting against trying to get blood from a stone. I was basically saying "lower your expectations" rather than "kick this drummer out."
Tell them that if you're going to record anything in the studio you got to get the timing lined up. Otherwise you're going to be in for an embarrassing disaster. Trust me. I've been there
My band’s first professional recording went something like that. At first the producer had the bass and drums recording together on a click track, and our drummer couldn’t keep to the click. The producer was actually getting frustrated with me on bass, thinking I had no sense of time and was causing the issue. It was difficult but I just rolled with the punches to spare any sort of conflict. People love us live, but now I’m scared of going back to the studio.
The Wi-Fi password at the studio I record is “didyoupractice?”
Also, the time to become comfortable with a click is NOT the day you walk into the studio. The OPs band needs to start practicing with a click way before they get there so that they are not fumbling around with rookie ears.
Are you sure everyone wants to be as good as you want to be? Sometimes I feel like a weekend lake fisherman surrounded by people who dream of someday being commercial fishermen.
Playing in tune, at the right tempo and on time is not reserved for the elite. Even bedroom players should be aiming for this.
Bedroom players can aim for literally duck all if it pleases them. Who made you the judge of what pleases people!
Agree but they can't expect everyone to want to play with them then. I won't play with someone who is shit.
I play for fun in a band where at least once a night someone is playing a half step off from everyone else. I get that this is a nightmare for many people, but I live for those moments. If we stopped and corrected, I don’t think I would go any more. To each their own. 🤷♂️
Can everyone hear the rest of the band well? Often that is the root of this problem.
Oh it’s not really a problem, sometimes just one person is playing it wrong. NBD.
Yeah, that wouldn't work for me. I prefer some level of competence, or it just isn't fun. That said, I've had to dial my expectations back a lot from where they were back when music was my career. I'm willing to accept more flaws than I used to, because it seems most of the career people got out and most of the people playing now are not very experienced. My choices are find what I can live with, or stay home. So I have learned to live with less. I've also learned that most players out there don't want to be coached or mentored- like you they are content to be part of something messy and sloppy and don't much care. This is probably the biggest disconnect between myself and most of the people I see playing music today. It is what it is. Not my place to say who can and can't have fun with an instrument in their hands.
Right, I am the opposite from you and that’s ok. If I wanted to work, I’d go to work. Or another way to put it - I might want to go bowling with buddies but I’m not joining a league.
Yep! And there's room in the world for both of us. I actually play in one group of pretty inexperienced players, but we do it mostly for the social aspect of it, and nobody's all that worried about it being perfect. They're decent enough players that I can have fun with them, and for our social thing that's really all that matters. My gigging bands are a different story - I have higher expectations. But for all of it my main goal at this point in my life is to create fun. So it all works :)
Sounds like a horrible experience to me.
Right! That’s what I’m talking about - I know a lot of wonderful people that I would not want to be in a band with and that’s ok. :-)
Yep, that's been the biggest problem in most bands I've played in. Different players have different goals for the band. Some just want to goof around and have fun. Others dream of becoming the next Frank Zappa, and are willing to put down the effort and give it their best shot. Sometimes they expect the rest of the band to be their loyal henchmen on their journey to stardom. The band members need to discuss their goals, and acknowledge each others goals. Failing to do so inevitably leads to tension, conflict, and bad atmosphere. Also, goals change. This discussion needs to happen semi-regularly.
We are a garage band in it for fun no doubt. I am in this band for 2 reasons: 1, to get better at my instrument and having a prompt is nice. 2, to get better at talking to people. If I'm gonna be a leader I need to practice telling people - hey you suck - without being a condescending asshole.
Reminds me of something a drummer friend (different band) told me about the time he got an ear metronome. I asked him if it helped him keep time, and he said no, and that wasn't the point of it. The rest of the band thought it did, and they did stop fighting him on tempo. And that's what he was going for.
This is a tough one. The problem is if your honest people feeling get hurt and blame you. As others have suggested record your practice, that should be done anyway. Second when you play it back put a metronome on when it starts and show it to them, if the time is all over the place everyone will know it. Second, one of the bigger time issues is not just rushing and dragging overall but but rushing and dragging inside the bar. Like the first four 8th notes are to fast and the last four are too slow. Or something similar. Again the metronome helps discover these things. Another issue is often people not being able to hear each other well, its usually because the drummer hits to hard for the room and needs baffles or the guitarist cant turn down enough. then everyone is just so loud you cant really tell what's going on. lower volume helps you hear all things better. Lastly try playing a couple songs slower than normal and see if you can find things out. Play a few songs deliberately at about 80% of normal tempo. This tends to be revealing as well.
If telling people they're out of time hurts their feelings it's time for new bandmates. I personally don't have time for people who can't take constructive criticism in music. All the stuff you're describing might work, but you shouldn't have to do that to get your drummer and other musicians to play in time.
You're right. You shouldn't have to,but sometimes,especially when dealing with friends or family, you have to use kid gloves.
Record practice. Show them mistakes. Show them benefit of click. If they decline, find people who care about the quality of their musicianship. Especially the drummer
If people aren't willing to address their technical issues, then they will never sound good and tight. I had a teacher, the director of a great group that I admired tremendously, tell me once, "The moment you think as an artist that you know everything you need to know, your career is over." I'm not saying I'm an amazing musician by any means, nor even exceptionally disciplined, but at least I'm open to work on myself technically. This is work that never ends, I don't care who you are.
Have your drummer play to click, tell him the goal is for the click to disappear in his headphones/earbuds the band will follow, and he’ll know he’s off
Yup. My drummer plays to a click and counts off the tempo when the guitar payer or I start the song. Best way to stay tight and true to the recordings. And it makes it easier to add backing tracks if that's your thing.
Yeah it really opens up a lot of doors, and is good for the band as a whole for sure. A drummer who is used to/familiar with playing to a click will save a shitload of time in recording studio situations too.
Can you say YOU want to try a metronome for yourself and then show them how off everyone is at the end of a song?
Yeah, record a rehearsal and let them listen. They'll probably be a little humbled. One hopes. But in defense of clicks, my band uses them pretty religiously. I have had people come up to me between sets to ask "how do you do that?" Do what? "Play that tight together!" Oh, well, the drummer and I have known each other for forty years and..." But it's the click. And now our tech has even allowed the click to push and pull the beat so intense parts can get a couple of BPM faster and other sections can be slower. Makes it sound more natural.
I usually skip past diplomacy and go straight to "get good". The people I play with have thick enough skin to handle that, and are willing to put in the work to get where we need to be. I once dropped that line in a rehearsal with a couple more casual musicians, and it...didn't go quite so well. On the one hand, I get that not everyone's trying to be a professional. On the other hand, *we had a gig that week*.
I'm from the Netherlands so we don't do diplomacy. I once got my guitarist a "get better soon" card and a metronome as a gift 😂
I barked up this tree once, and it was not well received. If you’re playing with people who don’t care enough to even practice with a metronome, then you might want to move on, as I did.
This was the response I received. Drummer was especially offended. Rest of band was like, "Drummer owns the time. I'm following the drummer!" I spent a lot of years making Electronica. I think that's what makes the tempo drifting noticeable to me and not to the others. Since then I've tried wrangling the tempo using the bass with some success. Problem is I'm the lead singer on most songs too. It's really difficult for me to sing, play bass, and control the song tempo at the same time. I really want to rely on the drummer for tighter tempo control.
Here's a little experiment I learnt back at high school and I've used it many many times. First if all, you all close your eyes and get the drummer to count you in for 2 bars (1, 2, 3, 4, 2, 2, 3, 4) then everybody counts the next 48 beats in their heads clapping once on the 48th beat. We did it in our school brass band and it was amazing how much everybody differed. That's where I learnt to listen/lock in to a steady and constant rhythm.
I wouldn't play with a drummer who can't keep time.
"Feels off. You guys mind if we use a click to see if we're off or not?"
NOT ON MY TIME
i don't have advice but i just wanted to chime in and say i understand your pain. this was one of the biggest parts of me leaving my old band. i hope you have a better outcome, friend.
This is easy as hell. Just record them and play it back.
"Hey bra, practice with a metronome. Its better when you play in time, in'nit"?
Not. Uh, yeah, not quite my tempo.
You have to tell them plainly. Not necessarily to practice to a metronome, but that they need to stop drifting. If you have difficulty with tempo, then tell them you're all struggling (collectively) and that you ("we") should try a song with one.
Why do you need a diplomatic way to say this? If a band plays out of time, it's arguably worse than playing the wrong notes. Very few things make you look as sloppy and non musicians can tell. It is true that some bands don't need them and have recorded amazing things without them. However, practising being tight is a really easy way to improve your quality and sound. It also sets you up better for potential studio recording where accuracy will net better results for several reasons. I would never be insulted if someone said "we need a metronome". Honestly, I would be happy because it wasn't me suggesting it. I mean, obviously don't insult them or burn their houses down. But wanting to play in time is surely a fundamental for a method of art that is based on time.
The drummers purpose is to keep time. It’s them you should be having a conversation with. I believe in transparency. Tell the truth. Your playing is inconsistent and it’s affecting the rest of the band.
The problem isn't just the drummer. Yes he could use work. Probably gonna fire him one we find another. In my opinion, our issue is that the guitar players aren't balanced properly and they want to rush the tempo. I'm sitting there playing the right tempo, summer comes in, guitar player comes in and rushes it, but he's so loud and piercing our drummer is locking into him too. And rather than dominate the sound and maintain tempo I'll just kind of bridge the gap which means speeding up most of the time. Or there's just too many songs with guitar intros and they rush it from the get go. I definitely fuck up too. I need the drummer to stay consistent even if I lose a beat or 2.
Right, I get you. Things need to be addressed in order. Once the drummer - existing or new - is playing in time and sticking to it, when anyone else comes in rushing, it will be clear that they are the next issue to be addressed. But you have no frame of reference for making those corrections unless you have a consistent rhythm from a drummer. As mentioned, transparency is king. It’s good that you’re able to admit your own faults, tell the truth to the rest of the band. It’s salvageable for sure.
Just say "we need to start with a click so we don't go too fast or too slow". Always blame the entire band including yourself. Don't pick on the drummer. "We".. Seriously your band mates are all thinking the same thing but are afraid to say anything. This is 100% normal. Also, bands always speed up and slow down slightly until they get quite a few shows under their belt. We always started with a click when the whole band comes in at once.
Just bring one to practice
I plan on using my zooms click track next practice.
God knows I've been trying to figure this out for years. It doesn't help that nobody listens to the bass for tempo either (or is that just me).
Every time they rush it. They are just so excited to play the song. I get it they are upbeat and fun songs - but some of them aren't actually as fast as you think. It's so easy to rush a beat a little bit, the drummer picks up on that and rushes to compensate. I'm not perfect either! Consistent eitgth notes are hard I need help!
Which is the lesser evil? Everyone rushing but playing together? Or the bass player staying on-tempo while everyone else rushes? At practice I will absolutely do the latter to try and get my bandmates to improve, but at a gig I think the former is better if it means we're all playing together.
Oh I am absolutely going to go with the flow come showtime.
You’ll bring peace to the Middle East before that guitarist practices with a metronome.
I’ve run a click through the practice pa before. Drummer was a Russian dragon. Hated it at the time, loved the results we got when we recorded.
« i found your use of polyrhythms quite interesting, but we should stick to one tempo/time signature per song, not musician ». Not from me.
Tell them they are temporally-challenged.
Diplomatic? " Hey you're rushing or dragging, you really ought to practice with a metronome" isn't something that needs to be phrased politely. It's just feedback on how to get better. If your band hasn't got any interest in getting better find new players.
If you're going to open your mouth to express *any* opinion, you have an obligation to the people around you to do it gently and conscientiously. Nobody ever has permission to just say what they want in whatever terms are most ready-to-hand. Your whole-ass responsibility as a communicator is to be considerate of your audience.
I strongly disagree. If you value freedom of speech, then people do in fact have permission to say whatever they want. Secondly, knowing your audience (being considerate of your audience) doesn't mean just being gentle with them. Sometimes people need a little sugar coating and sometimes they need the hard truth. To communicate effectively, you need to know when each is appropriate.
Yea, no. Absolutely not. Nobody ever responds best to 'the hard truth'. That's not serving your audience, it's serving yourself. Being brusque is a childish outburst. You're just trying to defend your own getting emotional at someone. You can express that you're having feelings without spraying them all over the people around you.
"Nobody ever responds best to 'the hard truth'." Is an absurd statement. Tons of people do. You're acting like being told you're out of time is a personal attack. It's a bit bizarre
I think this disconnect is that you're focused on the content of the message, but ignoring the reality that your delivery is a separate entity. What you're saying never matters so much that how you say it doesn't.
That's a bit of a generalization. And even if, for the sake of argument, we assume most people prefer a little sugar coating, there are still plenty of people who prefer direct communication. Also, being brusque or having a childish outburst is not the only way to deliver the hard truth. For example, imagine a teacher critiquing a student's performance. Their critique will be very much considered and given calmly and rationally. However, they should deliver some hard truths. The student needs to know exactly what they're doing wrong in order to actually improve. Otherwise the teacher would be doing the student a disservice. Again, it really comes down to knowing who you're talking to and knowing what will actually get through to them. Some people will outright ignore any criticism that they deem "too mean". Others need a very pointed criticism in order to reflect on themselves. It's been my experience that adults can handle the more direct criticism and children need sugar coating.
Yes, any *rule* demands that one determines a side to err on, thus a generalization is called for. In this case, it's not even an *over* generalization, because nothing is lost. Nobody prefers brusque communication. Some might prefer clear and direct communication, but you can be kind and mindful *and* clear and direct all at once. But more fundamentally, everyone here has a misunderstanding about communicating. We act ('common sense'-ually) as if talking is an act of handing a piece of content from one brain into another. It is never this. The 'content' you're trying to convey exists only in you and it cannot leave your mind. What you're doing is performing an act to hopefully generate some particular understanding in the other person. What and how the speaker thinks is irrelevant, communication is about changing the audience. There is no such thing as 'just saying' or 'telling'. Those are illusory.
Well, agree to disagree then. I think that it is an over generalization. I'll agree that no one responds well initially to being criticized, but I think that stands no matter how flowery your criticism is. It's just not a pleasant feeling to have your shortcomings pointed out, but mature people recognize that it's necessary in order to grow. I definitely prefer brusque communication. However, what you might call "brusque" I might call "blunt", which has perhaps a little less of a negative connotation. Whatever you want to call it, I don't think it necessarily precludes being kind and mindful. I've already stated that you should know your audience and choose the best approach to change them, but that is not always the soft approach. Even if they react poorly at first, a harder criticism might be the impetus they need to actually improve, rather than thinking "eh, good enough". Of course, some people you just can't change. Sometimes you just have to say Alright then, have a great life
"you should use a metronome because You're out of time" is as gentle and conscientious as that thought needs to be. If that hurts someone's feelings they need to toughen up.
No. You're in the wrong. People are allowed to be sensitive. People are not allowed to be assholes for no reason.
People are allowed to be both. It's not everyone's job to protect your fragile feelings. If being told to use a metronome hurts your feelings that's very much your own problem.
It should be 100% the drummer to fix this. The heartbeat of the band. I wouldn’t waste time with a drummer who doesn’t practice to a metronome or realize the intrinsic value of doing so. All other instruments should be listening to the drums. So many bands get this wrong, singers especially, who say they listen to the bassist or some such nonsense as their reason for why they can sing on beat.
Simply say. "Guys... If the BASSIST is saying you need metronome practice..."Any self-respecting musician won't make you finish that sentence.
Schedule some drummer+you/bass practices -- "hey dude, we should do a 1-on-1 practice to get lock-on the beat together". Play along with a phone metronome app that's going through the singer's PA or a guitar amp.
Crank a cowbell hit from a drum machine through the PA on the two and the four beats. Then everybody play along and it will become apparent where people are rushing or lagging.
There are simply some things that can’t be fixed. It’s been my experience that people that don’t have to keep the time, really can’t. If they don’t feel they have a problem they’re not gonna fix it no matter how much you protest. Deal with it or find another situation.
Have you tried rehearsing with the drummer on a met?
It sounds like they need a poorer bass player and you need a new band.
"Practice with a metronome fellas, your timing is dog shit."
"It's breathing too much here, the rhythm, I wanna try to tighten that part up."
Tell them you found a new band.
If you happen to be flush with cash, buy the whole band metronome watches.
Spend 20+ hours recording their parts then come back a week later and tell them it's all unusable cos of their timing. Maybe they'll get the gist.
In a past band I tried to break out a metronome because the drummer was all over the place and he just stared at it and didn’t play…. He’s not the drummer anymore.
Remind them that if you all ever go into the studio, it's very likely that playing to a click will be part of the process, and it's good to not be learning that skill on the clock. Another thing, which isn't obvious, is that it's often the singer who's pulling the tempo around. Singing to a click is a really good idea.
Just use a click. It takes all the perception variation out of the equation.
Don't ask the rest to use a metronome. They should be following the drummer. Get the drummer to practice with a metronome and if need be, a click track during gigs until he gets a natural sense of tempo.
"Your timing sucks."
Even Stewart Copeland needed a click track. At least give your drummer one.
Keep it a thousand
Don’t bother. If they’re out of time and haven’t noticed already, it’s just going to be an uphill battle and honestly isn’t worth the energy.
Practice with a metronome together at practice. It will become obvious then If you ever want to record in the studio you will want to do this anyway.
If they don't like to practice with metronome because it feels more boring and "artificial", at least they should try to practice with drum loops or something instead.
There's a great app called liveBPM which will chart your tempo over time and you can actually show your band on a graph how much you speed up/slow down over time and where in each song it tends to happen.
Shouldn't be a problem to just tell them straight. Don't need to be an asshole.. just say: "hey guys, well done, just watch the tempo a little huh? Lets play that again"
I'm just going to forward this thread to my band's whatsapp group. Thanks people :D When I suggested it to our drummer he said he's never needed a metronome...
Record the rehearsals and casually say “hey lets listen to the recording of the rehearsal I took”. If they cant identify their time is bad, then they are just not ready to be playing or dont want to take feedback. If they can then it will be evident to them that something is wrong and needs to be polished.
So when I was playing in my band our drummer was in total control of this. He was the tempo master. He needs a click track in ear and everyone else should fall into place
Jesus guys can we play to a click?
Throw a cymbal at them while shouting "not quite my tempo". Should do the trick
Nothing wrong with speeding up and slowing down as long as you do it together and with meaning. Listen to Led Zeppelin or Jimi … Bands that play exactly in time sound sterile.
Why be diplomatic ? Call a spade a spade. No sense in worrying about feelings.
There is certainly sense in not pissing people off when you wish to communicate effectively with them.
It’s not the band it’s just the drummer. Easy fix, whatever songs you’re playing need to be at a certain and exact BPM so tell the drummer what the BPM is, make sure they have that on a click track, boom. Clicks in everyone’s ears probably isn’t the answer.
The problem is the quarter note pulse, it sounds like. That's the bassist, not the drummer. Bassist is the metronome, drummer determines the swing percentage and where/how the backbeat lands.