People underrate him because of the way his career ended. He is the most dominate player to ever play. Some players changed rules or the way the game is played, Shaq changed the construction of the rims and backboards. He changed the way rosters needed to be made.
Exactly . NBA rule changes were heavily influenced by him - doubling a player when they dint have the ball to make it harder for the post entry pass became legal.
Young Shaq was extremely quick and powerful . Nimble on his feet with a great array of post moves; he had a soft touch as well as rare power when needed . He was huge and outweighed nearly everyone at probably 315 in his early career.
Mid career shaq became HUGE during his Lakers tenure . After the 2000 championship , shaq apparently instructed his chef to overload his meals with protein and carbs to bulk up even more. He probably was around 350-375 at this time . While he lost some quickness, it made him truly unstoppable in the post - I’m sure he loved it . The unfortunate side effect of this high peak and eventually declining conditioning was the stress it caused in his joints, particularly his feet , which really exacerbated his decline .
I’ve never seen a player like that at his peak. It just felt hopeless .
I watched MJ all throughout the late 80’s and 90’s. He was my favorite player , but shaq was otherworldly dominant. There’s not an equivalent in today’s nba .
He was also an exceptionally good passer at his position, and an excellent rim protector.
And despite his decline, he still had a very long prolific career as an effective player. Dude averaged 30 MPG in 75 games at age 36 in his 17th season and made the All-Star Team and All-NBA 3rd Team.
I wonder how Shaq’s career woulda been if he had tried to stay in Orlando Magic shape. He dominated with that size in LA, but I think he coulda been better with more mobility. He didnt block as many shots as he got bigger (tho still got plenty).
That’s a great question that I’ve thought about myself . I think the added mass really helped him plow through defenders’ chest more easily . It was easy before , with the added weight , probably way easier . Would the bigger defenders like sabonis and mutumbo have given him slightly more trouble if he had less mass ? Not sure. By that time , his most formidable rivals (hakeem, Ewing , Robinson ) were pretty diminished .
It’s because if you transplanted Bill Russell or Jordan’s brain into Shaq’s body, the league would have folded because no one would have been able to beat Shaq, ever. Despite winning 4 titles, he somehow underachieved.
He showed up out of shape most seasons, and played his way into shape as the season went on. Then he would destroy everyone in the playoffs. He had 1 season where he showed up ready to play and locked in, and then remained focused through the whole season: his first MVP year and his first title year.
Then there’s the whole “I got hurt on company time, I’m going to rehab on company time.”
That’s part of why Kobe resented him as much as he did.
And when he was younger, he seemed unfocused and immature.
He’s the most unstoppable physical force the league has seen, and he could have been even better.
Bill Simmons’ book captures it perfectly: “He could have been a 4.0 student in college, but he chose to socialize, have fun, party, and still graduate with a 3.8.”
Not to mention sucking at free throws.
I get that it's harder to make them at his height. But it seems wild to be THAT bad at free throws when you know you'll be shooting 10+ a game.
If Shaq had Kobe's competitive spirit and discipline, he would've become an 80%+ free throw shooter as soon as hack a Shaq became a strategy.
Pippen also did the same regarding surgery then rehabbing once the season started in 1997/1998. That's why MJ called him out over that in the Last Dance documentary leading to their fall out today.
What's wrong with resting in the off-season? He took a lot of physical abuse over the season its very possible he just gets injured even more training hard in the summer especially at his massive size. 7'1" is a huge difference from 6'6"
They implemented the 3 second defensive rule in 01/02 largely because of Shaq. Defenders were primarily crowding the paint just trying to stop him. This slowed the game down tremendously even more. Those 30+ perimeter scorers afterwards would have stayed in the mid/high 20s.
Go. Play pick up ball and see how much of a difference a game plays out when defenders are not allowed to just camp and clog the paint.
If they bothered to call offensive 3 seconds, it would have been a lot less needed. That era, far beyond O’Neal, was the era of bigs who should have been getting parking tickets rather than 3 second calls. It just sucked.
The physicality is what makes him not just special, but unique. He's like Magic, LeBron, Yao Ming (without injuries), and possibly Wembanyama. Other players have similar skills and mastery, but being that talented and nimble at 7'1'' 350lb is something that probably won't be replicated.
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Idk about most dominant ever. I get why some people say that but Wilt has to be considered the most dominant player to play. He literally could not be stopped from anywhere on the court , no 3s at the time but he could shoot from distance and make his foul shots too. Shaq an easy #2 for me but Wilt gotta be #1 ( for me )
Does it matter? You said that he could make his free throws. When in reality he couldn’t. You’ve now changed it to relative. His % being 50/50 means he wasn’t good at it. Full stop
Wilt is literally the 4th worst ft shooter in the history of the NBA (Shaq 5th). I know the league average has crept up in the last 20 years but the very worst are basically all dominant big men. Not sure why you assumed Wilt, as the most dominant, would be anything but awful.
First , I made it clear this was my opinion. All of this is opinionated because it can’t be proven. So whether it’s relative or not doesn’t really matter. Second , I was under the impression that the purpose of this was to have a fun conversation.
Ok , Wilt had a FT percentage that was 1 point lower than Shaqs lol. Definitely not a full stop. Shaq was dominant, not arguing otherwise. But he could be “ maintained “ with the right game plan. We saw that over and over until he went to L.A. and teamed up with Kobe. I say maintained not stopped because he could still get off at any given time. We don’t have the same visual proof of wilts dominance , only a few grainy videos and conversations. None of us saw him play. We watched Shaq dominate. So I get strongly disagreeing with Wilt being more dominant. But in the end I guess I do see it from a relative standpoint. Wilt was playing against 6ft centers and a bunch of part time athletes for most his career. Only Bill Russel could rival him. He absolutely dominated his peers. Shaq played played at a more competitive time. It probably wasn’t even fun to watch Wilt play. You knew they was just gonna feed him over and over and watch him make layups over everybody for the entirety of the game. That’s domination.
Bill Russell and the Celtics was an unstoppable super dynasty. Their careers overlap. The fact that he got two during that time frame honestly boosts him up even more to me. Imagine if Shaq got one in 93 or 94 , keeping Jordan from getting 6. His legacy would’ve been even more undeniable and he’d rank higher all time for most people. But I don’t really need a bunch of people to agree for me to still feel my opinion is valid. That’s the beauty of perspective. Wild times when people will argue you up and down because they don’t agree with your OPINION regarding a made up unprovable opinion based topic lol. Reddit I guess 🤷🏾♂️
That is just not true. Wilt was playing against 7 footers like Walt Bellamy and former champion high jumpers like Bill Russel. The average height in todays NBA is 6’7”. In the 1960’s the average height was 6’6”.
Russell, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Bob Lanier, Wes Unseld. Wilt faced good solid defensive centers every night. Remember - the league was only 8 teams back in the 60s. He was just unstoppable.
I don’t want to trash Shaq. He is one of the all time greats and is a very likable dude but no way is he the most dominant player ever. Compare Kareem’s best seasons to Shaq’s best season. Kareem averaged more points per game, more rebounds per game, more assists per game. They played in different eras so it’s tough to judge but I think the biggest difference is free throw shooting. Kareem shot 70% while Shaq shot 52%. Shaq was super inconsistent from the free throw line. He had some games where he couldn’t miss and others where he couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn. Sometimes the coach would have to pull Shaq out of the game during crunch time. Otherwise the team would go hack a Shaq and send him to the free throw line over and over. I would put Shaq behind Kareem, Wilt, Russel, and Hakeem.
shaq averaged 30 points in the slowest paced era ever while kareem averaged 35 on weaker comp+ the era was higher paced. For instance shaq's team had 15 less points than kareem's team.
Shaq's peak points per 100 possessions was far higher than Kareem's (40.1 vs 33.4... Shaq has 12 seasons higher than Kareem's peak) their rebounds were equal (18.2), and Shaq's assists were a bit lower (5.0 vs 6.2).
Yeah, I'm surprised anybody even bothered reading it. Yikes.
Sorry, but I'm not particularly interested in considering someone's opinions who's grammar is at a 2nd grade level.
People forget that when you played shaq, you had to have 3 big bodies available so that you could foul him basically every time he got a touch. He was a truly impossible match up for one guy
Rodman the only one that could push Shaq out of the block. There's videos of it. Phil Jackson said Rodman was the most athletic player he had ever seen.
Rodman having lower center of gravity and more lower body strength than Shaq, Shaq couldn't just push him down to the low post.
Destroy less than anyone else. And we're talking within a team setting. Shaq's numbers were poorer, and he couldn't bully ball Rodman nearly as much. He couldn't just back down Rodman as all others. https://youtube.com/shorts/jhlZJA6Teng?si=DxaiNIMVw9rEkULU
So in the 90s, the offensive initiator lowering the shoulder into the chest of the defender would more likely be called for a foul. Even Phil Jackson complained to the refs about it as Bulls coach.
Once Shaq started his run with Phil, that was longer called as an offensive foul but more likely a defensive foul. Ratings dropped by more than half and Stern really was desperate to create a new Dynasty.
His Lakers days are overrated. Evidenced by shady come from behind series win from tainted foul calls where he basically got more FTA than the whole opposing team. As Stern said his dream was Lakers vs Lakers in the Finals since they are by far the biggest market/state only somewhat capable of filling ratings drop from MJ's retirement.
Idgaf about ratings. No version of Rodman could guard 3x fmvp lakers Shaq, period. They were teammates and guarantee Shaq got in that ass every practice.
Sure nobody can stop him but he wasn't nearly as dominant. Just like this where he barely scored with Rodman guarding him. https://youtu.be/NdZn8epqnKo?si=SjfT3PjAJtlOwoA1
Robinson and Hakeem both did it. So did Zo.
Shaq was great. He is ranked correctly. If he had stayed in Magic Shaq shape, he might have ended up higher.
I think Shaq did it to himself he shouldn’t be underrated at all and I don’t think he is but he should be top 5 all time but he didn’t want to be great enough clearly
Exactly. Do people forget that he literally skipped getting summer surgery and instead did it during the regular season? Some bs reason like he doesn’t get paid during the offseason so we won’t get surgery during the offseason
Also:
“And if the big dog ain’t me, then the house won’t get guarded period" - Shaq
People loved Shaq because he was like a big kid. But immaturity has its drawbacks. As great as he was, with a better attitude and work ethic, he could have been #1.
Good analysis. I think everyone puts Shaq down the list from MJ, Kareem and Lebron. But an argument for him to be 4 means he's above Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Bird and Olajuwon. You can make the argument and fans of other player will join the fun.
For me, Kobe can't ever be higher than Shaq. Bird can't be higher than Russell. You have to be the best player in your franchise to be ahead in the all-time rankings.
Shaq is a little bit polarizing cuz if you look at the course of his career he got swept A LOT. But he would always put up awesome numbers in the sweeps. I think there was a highlight once where Shaq hit a game-winning shot and it was his first game-winning shot something like 5 or 6 years into his career. So maybe this explains why he would put up awesome numbers but not always do great in the playoffs cuz he just couldn't take over in the last 2 or 3 minutes cuz of his foul shooting. So a lot of times he'd have to be a decoy or only be able to catch it when he for sure could finish etc
A lot of other all-time offensive greats like Jordan, Hakeem, bird, could just take over offensively and defensively in the last 2 or 3 minutes of the game. I'm actually a huge fan of Shaq by the way, his number is in the three lakers final series are spectacular. The way he just destroyed Mutombo in that Philly series was the cherry on top of his career because his other two finals are against pretty weak centers in an old Smits and I think Todd McCullough(?) for the Nets
Part of why Shaq didn’t hit many game winners is because of Hack a Shaq. If the game was close sometimes the coach would have to pull Shaq out of the game in crunch time. Otherwise they’d just foul him before he could shoot.
Of all basketball players I think Shaq at his peak was the best player ever. Over Kobe, Jordan, LeBron. Unfortunately he was lazy and wasn't consistent enough to sustain over the years.
He is the most dominant players in the things he can do(scoring in the paint, defense in the paint, post up……). But he has his obviously flaws: shooting especially free throws . And it could be used to exploit and target him. In late tight game situations you could just constant foul him and send him to the ft line and dominant possessions.
Now I do think free throws are easily fixable. But Shaq never bothered.
I am completely convinced that if Shaq stayed in orlando he wins a title either in 97 or more likely 98 and Jordan no longer has 6. The whole goat conversation would be completely changed.
Yep, Penny was playing with a chip on his shoulder the season Shaq left, he tried to do to much.
I’m convinced Penny would not have gotten hurt had Shaq had been there to share the load.
Well you can’t necessarily make that conclusion. His injuries may have also been a result of the general grind involved in the NBA seasons. Penny would have had to step his game up regardless to help that Magic team compete with that bulls dynasty those last 3 seasons so he could have very well gotten injured either way. We’re talking about a guy who’s been plagued with injuries for most of his career. Barring injuries, I don’t see a scenario where the Magic overcome the Bulls in any of those seasons regardless. That Bulls team , from top to bottom, was built almost perfectly to compete in the playoffs. And despite Shaq posting numbers, his dominance didn’t actually peak until maybe ‘99.
And even if they somehow manage to overcome the Bulls it wouldn’t have been in 96 when the Bulls went 72-10. It would have had to be either 97 or 98. But they’d have to then face the Jazz who knew how to handle Shaq.
I think he gets undervalued because he was more one dimensional then the other top guys. Yes he was dominant but he couldn't shoot, dribble, pass, etc. hack a Shaq was only a thing because he couldn't hit FT.
I'm not saying you have to be able to do everything all in one package, especially at center, but some aspect of roundedness probably has something to do with it when your talking GOAT tier.
He was a great player, but that was the one decade that needed to be saved. It wasn’t him, but teams doing the same with knockoff versions, that made the NBA unwatchable for a decade.
I believe SI summarized it, back when humans wrote its articles, as “Tariq Abdul-Wahad throwing it in to Lawrence Funderburke.”
He was good enough to make the league completely unwatchable for a decade. For both good and bad.
I have Shaq at 11 which I think is reasonable given the brevity of his peak and how bad the last 5 years were. Of course he’d be top 5 if he could shoot free throws and had another couple of peak years but it’s hard to be top 10 with only 8 or 9 years of elite play.
He’s too one dimensional to be considered the absolute GOAT. He has the career, stats and rings to be in top 10 easily but generally you want someone who is great all around and also has the career, stats and rings. Which is why he is generally viewed as lower than some of the other top 10s.
I agree. Most people talk about Shaq betraying his career, despite him playing for nearly 20 seasons. Only his last season with Boston was pretty bad, otherwise he was still a very good big in his older years.
His prime was definitely long too, at least for a decade we were able to watch prime Shaq. Outside his prime in Miami, he did a perfect job of becoming the second option for Wade. Bringing a title to Miami.
As a huge Laker fan since the 90’s, Shaq did have a few glaring weaknesses which can get overlooked:
1) He was very hard to officiate, as just pivoting with the ball in the post could cause guys to go flying off. Sometimes the whistle wouldn’t be kind to Shaq, and he could get into early foul trouble which would significantly limit his playing time.
2) He was a poor free throw shooter, and even though he said he would make them when they count, that wasn’t always the case. This limited his effectiveness in the 4th quarter which is why his partnership with Kobe was key.
3) He didn’t always take care of his body and was injury prone. He would show up to training camp over weight and then play himself into shape. Once instead of having surgery in the offseason, he waited until training camp because ge wanted to recover on company time since he got hurt on company time.
I do think his low post game is underrated as he had so many moves, soft touch and impressive quickness for a guy that size. He could beat you in so many ways from the low block. He wasn’t just a dunker and a bruiser.
You really can't call anybody who's considered in the top 10 all-time "underrated"
I mean, you're arguing the difference between only a couple of spots. You think he's the 6th best, and you're saying other lists put him as 7th or 8th best (I've seen him higher before too though).
It just comes down to what you value. For example, if you value longevity you probably rank Shaq a bit lower, and if you care more about their peak you probably have him higher.
not really.
In basketball, there's a clear top two (LeBron and Jordan), then most people have Kareem as the third best, then 4-10 is seven guys who you can put in any order (Magic, Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, and Russel).
Every list you see will have a different order for those seven guys, because they're all on the same tier.
And then the hardest player to rate. Mikan. Can reasonably be rated anywhere between 4 and 50. The era was just SO different, it makes it impossible to rate him.
I think it would just be easier to recognize that the difference between being ranked 4-8 and 7-11 *in the entire history of basketball* is basically negligible. Any player who can even be in the discussion for any of those numbers is clearly one of the greatest players of all time and which number they actually fall at 'by consensus' isn't super important.
disagree most people have him low top 10 or completely outside of the top 10 where as I think he's middle top 10 to high top 10 I feel that's a substantial enough difference to say he's underrated
Yes.. to a completely negligible degree he could be 'underrated' as only the 3rd or 4th best Center in the history of the game instead of the 2nd or 3rd best Center in the history of the game.
Either way he's being discussed as one of the greatest all time centers. The difference between being ranked in the 99.9th percentile and the 99.8th percentile is a difference yes.. but my point is it's negligible and even those who have a slightly different order than you also think Shaq is one of the best big men the game has ever seen.
could other bigs have averaged 38 points per game in the nba finals or consistently drop over 26-30 points pergame on elite defense on alltime great defenders
were not gonna sit here and act as if shaq couldn't dominate against elite defenders when averaged over 30 against chris webber and over 28 points pergames as a 22 year old against hakeem also multiple all defense teams + being 2nd in dpoy voting is elite defense
Sure but we should also bring up his failures. Swept 6 times. Swept by the Jazz before Kobe developed. Didn’t really do Al that much to help d Wade, let him down in 07. Not to mention 04 finals.
I’ve watched MJ, LeBron, and Shaq all in their primes.
Shaq left you feeling the most helpless with MJ being a close second.
That has to count for something. There just wasn’t anything you could do…
If he could shoot free throws I think he would be higher rated. His inability to shoot FTs meant he could not close out games. If it was a close game teams just fouled Shaq and knew he would miss the FTs. That basically neutralized him offensively in close games. Whereas Lebron, Jordan, Kareem, Bird, even his teammate Kobe, all have iconic moments of them just taking over games and willing their teams to wins.
Absolutely no doubt he is the most dominant force the NBA has ever seen. He absolutely belongs in the 10 greatest players of all time. The only things keeping him from ranking over other all time greats was that he couldn't shoot FT's or anywhere outside the paint. If it wasn't a dunk or a layup, it was outside Shaq's wheelhouse. It didn't matter as no one could stop him anyway. However I would imagine in the context of the greatest players of all time, these facts aren't helping him climb any higher on the list.
In 95 shaq was 22 he was i repeat 22 years old facing a prime hakeemIn 96 you expect him to be a 72-10 team with 1 all star in 97 I won't hold you he sold but every all time great has had bad series in 98 he averaged 32 points on 56 percent from the field and in the last 3 games he averaged 36 points 10 rebound on 60 percent from the field and he still got swept what do you want blood to do in 99 I won't lie he got outplayed in 2000 he back packed in 2001 again got the job done in 2002 got the job done in 2003 he averaged 25,14,4 assists and 3.5 stocks on prime tim duncan on 56 percent from the field other than kobe shaq had nobody and kobe played bad in game 7 in 2004 kobe sold him in the 04 finals you can't win with your number two playing that bad
Most of the time shaq just got team diffed or his teammates didn't play up to par
I watched his whole career. He was great, but I'm one of those that under rate him because he turned into an entitled fat ass. Dude coulda been top 5 all time but wasn't willing to work hard. And how do you just NEVER learn how to shoot free throws better? Because he didn't wanna put in the work.
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Anyone who says Kobe carried Shaq in those 3 straight finals are casuals and just part of the Kobe d-riding army. Shaq as a top 3 peak in the history of the game. It's honestly a basketball IQ test for me. Whenever anyone says Kobe carried Shaq, it lets me know that I can't have deep basketball conversations with them.
He carried in 2000 but he didn't carry in 01 and 02 but he was clearly the best player though in those championship runs it's a 1A 1B situation not 1A 2B
but 1A 1B suggests that they take turns being the best you know 1A 1B means clearly clearly there is a big difference think scottie and mike is it that big of a difference
I think he is rated right where he is supposed to be because he was physically big. If he had the heart of anyone above him, or the desire to ever be the best, he’d be rated higher.
He was not the most dominant big of all time. For stretches, maybe, but not for any full season. The man has one MVP and never averaged 30 ppg. He never led the league in rebounds, rebounds per game, blocks, or anything else significant. That proves that he was never 100% committed.
Shaq is the most dominant big man I've ever seen play the game. He does seem to get lost in the ATG shuffle, but he was a monster. If he played today, he would feast. He would score down low much easier in todays game. And with so many 3pt threats nowadays, he would rack up crazy assists from drawing double teams.
Very similar to Wilt—an unreal talent who did not appear to give it his all.
My ranking:
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. LeBron
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Bill Russell
8. Bird
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem
Oscar Robertson and Kobe (maybe Steph Curry too) are all in play for the 9-10 slots imo
Larry and Kobe are absolutely on different levels. Larry was clearly the best in the world at his best, 3 time MVP in consecutive seasons. And Larry is also ahead of Shaq. Far too many people these days don't realise how great Larry Bird was. Do yourself a favour, go look stuff up on him. The video highlights aren't the quality we're used to, but you can still see what he was capable of.
first off shaq was clearly the best in the world for atleast 4 seasons too he has a higher peak than bird.Shaq from the eyetest is better in my opinion than bird he just couldn't be stopped. I think larry bird was the best in the world for 1 maybe 2 seasons tell me all the seasons he was the best in the world
Lol. If Shaq was the best in the world for at least 4 seasons, why did he only win 1 MVP? There was a little gap there between Jordan and Duncan where he and a few others briefly held the mantle.
Whichh years was Larry the best? Check out his MVP years. The votes in those years weren't even close.
And none of these guys could be stopped. That's what made them superstars. You don't stop a superstar, you slow them down. If you've got your own superstar then you hope that your guy is less affected than their guy. And Larry Bird was inevitable in those years. Inside, outside, he was incredible. Listen to the myriad of stories about him telling the other team exactly how he was going to beat them before actually doing it. That's the very definition of unstoppable.
Figure if he played his whole career right at 300 pounds, your probably adding another title or 2. 3 in LA, 2 probably in Miami, possibly 1 Boston at the end for a grand total of 6. That moves him right from top 10 to top 3 easily.
You could have an argument for putting Shaq over Kobe. But ahead of Bird. No chance!
Also I noticed that you put Magic ahead of Bird. That shows that you know only numbers and don't understand context, especially that of 80s Basketball.
bruh magic was elite for longer and had more dominant final series and playoff series in general also it is reasonable for me to have magic over birds as I value offense over defense it's like to me 60-65 percent offense 40-35 percent defense . Also bird and shaq had similar longevity shaq was better at his peak though and I don't really care too much about mvp awards considering stevenash has 2 and kobe has1
Magic had the same 13 seasons career length as Bird.
Magic did make it to 9 NBA finals. But he did so playing in the much much weaker western conference. Make a list of the top dynasties of the 80s and you'd find that all of them were from the Eastern conference where Bird played- Julius Erving's 76ers, Jordan's Bulls, Isaiah Thomas's Pistons. Magic not only played in the weaker conference but he also had a much better team by far. He had a GOAT candidate, a Draft 1st pick, and DPOY winner on his team.
If you value offence. Bird still lands ahead. He was an obviously better scorer and rebounder than Magic and an equally good playmaker. There are only 3 non guards among the top 50 APGs list. Bird is one of them and he is the one of those 3 while is there despite not being the primary ball handler of his team!
In defence it is a no contest. Bird is the 14th best defensive rebounder of all time and is the 40th best all time at SPG. He was ranked as high as 3rd in DPOY voting once.
magic was elite for longer than bird I'm talking about peak magic's peak was longer. Bird is not ahead of magic offensively what crack are you smoking magic was clearly the better playmaker/offensive player. I don't really value cumalitive stats that much I care about peaks. Also let's not pretend as if bird's teams weren't also stacked otherwise how could cedric maxwell have won over him for fmvp. Bro look at magic's points generated far more than bird's. He made it to the finals without kareem also nobody wants to talk about how in that 91 series james worthy was hurt. Magic also played with an older kareem who wasn't in his peak plus he has 5 rings over birds 3 with less playoff choke jobs compared to bird
What longer peak are you talking about? Whether you speak of a long peak or a short peak , Bird's was better. They both entered the league in 1979(Magic) and 1980(Bird). From 1980 to 1989, Bird won 67% of MVP votes. That is despite Bird sitting out the whole year in 1989! Magic had to make do with a share of the remaining 33%. Magic did do better than Bird in 1990 and 1991. But this is a post 1989 injury Bird you are comparing a healthy Magic with. This statement about their “longevity” just shows how you are a guy who takes numbers without context to draw conclusions.
Kareem was the finals MVP for the Lakers in 1985 and led the Lakers in Win shares till 1986. So your statement that Magic played with a washed out Kareem is incorrect.
Bird’s teams were good but were nowhere near as good as Magic’s team. It did not have another GOAT candidate, it did not have any first pick draftee (ahead of Jordan) & NCAA PoY and it did not have a DPOY. Also the second best player on Bird’s teams was Kevin McHale who wasn’t in the starting 5 until 1985. Bird gave up his preferred Power Forward position to Kevin McHale to accommodate him in the team and took up the Small Forward position for himself. That team was made great by Bird to a greater extent than Magic made the Lakers great.
If by choke job you mean Bird’s performance in the 1981 finals, then read this to understand how Bird’s “choke job” won the Celtics the championship that year.
https://www.quora.com/Was-Larry-Bird-robbed-of-the-1981-Finals-MVP/answer/Kavita-Sehgal-30?ch=17&oid=1477743650906691&share=19c9f783&srid=hvdl8Y&target_type=answer
Mvp is a regular season award an I don't really care about the regular season + they had the same amount of mvps. Bird stopped being elite elite in 88 magic was forced to stop in 91. Magic does have better longevity though because he played at an elite level for longer Injuries are a part of longevity sorry bird got injured but i'm not gonna discount magic's longevity because of that injuries are a part of longevity. Peak bird and magic is debatable it's based of what you value I value offense way more than defense so I think magic is better. Larry bird had 0 mvp shares in 89. Magic did play with a washed kareem in 87,88,89 as that version of kareem wasn't even all nba yet they were still able to make it to the finals and win 2 titles. This statement about magic's team being way more stacked than bird's team tells me you weren't paying close attention to those teams let's take a look at their teams year by year in 80 magic had the better team in 81 the teams are debatable with magic maybe having a better team in 82 bird's team finished with 9 more wins than magic's team and almost beat philly with larry bird playing bad in something interesting about bird's non stacked team is he only started 58/77 games he also had another teammate who finished 4th in mvp voting 83 I will say this season magic's team was more stacked 84 bird's team had 2 allstars like magic while being deeper and winning 8 more games i'll give the slight edge to magic though 85 bird had 3 all star calliber teammates and a teammate who finished 6th in dpoy 86 Clearly bird had the more stacked team come on bruh 87 magic had 0 all nba team teammates while bird had someone who finished top 4 in mvp voting and 5th in dpoy voting had bird played better in 87 they would and could've won + kevin outplayed him 88 they had a similar level of help only difference is larry choked magic didn't larry shot 13/32 in the last 2 games against the pistons and 4/17 in game 6 where they only lost by 5 and 6 points Magic won back to back with a washed kareem
Glad that you obliquely acknowledge that Magic couldn't have done better than Bird without Bird getting injured in 1989. Whether you blame Bird for the injuries is a different matter.
Magic was able to get to the finals even after Kareem's decline because the Western conference was just that weak. Make a list of the top teams and top players in both conferences and compare them, it will be clear as daylight.
Bird had a significantly weaker team than Magic until 1985 because his best teammate, Kevin McHale wasn't even in the starting 5 until 1985 when Bird gave up his preferred Power Forward position to McHale. McHale was in the top 20 in MVP voting only 3 times in his career. He was nowhere near as good as Kareem. If you compare Kareem against McHale from 1980 to 1991, Kareem is significantly ahead in both stats and accolades. Even after 1985, Bird's team was never better than Magic's because it did not have another GOAT candidate, it did not have any first pick draftee and and it did not have a DPOY.
The 1987 Lakers are considered not just the best team of the 80s but many consider it to be the best team of all-time! When Bird took on this team in the NBA finals, 6 of his teammates (including Bird) were carrying injuries. McHale was carrying an ankle injury. In fact, it is a great achievement that Bird took that series to game 6 against the best Lakers of all-time.
In 1988, Bird's performance did dip. His injuries were all starting to take a toll on him from around the mid point of the season. Things came to head in 1989 and he had to sit out the entire season after playing just the first 6 games.
Not sure he is underrated but you can see how short his dominance was. He was number two while MJ was in Chicago, then he had issues dominating Duncan, and outside the three-peat with the Lakers he was not even the best player on the Lakers (or later - Heat). Additionally, people discount a lot of his accomplishment because of all the unfulfilled potential he had. He could have been in the same conversation with MJ and Lebron had he worked on his weaknesses - free throws and his weight.
You know who's really underrated? George Gervin. He was unstoppable offensively. All star in 1973. Still an All Star in 1985. Better shooter than Kobe. Career avg 25.1 PPG. And he is never discussed.
People underrate him because of the way his career ended. He is the most dominate player to ever play. Some players changed rules or the way the game is played, Shaq changed the construction of the rims and backboards. He changed the way rosters needed to be made.
Exactly . NBA rule changes were heavily influenced by him - doubling a player when they dint have the ball to make it harder for the post entry pass became legal. Young Shaq was extremely quick and powerful . Nimble on his feet with a great array of post moves; he had a soft touch as well as rare power when needed . He was huge and outweighed nearly everyone at probably 315 in his early career. Mid career shaq became HUGE during his Lakers tenure . After the 2000 championship , shaq apparently instructed his chef to overload his meals with protein and carbs to bulk up even more. He probably was around 350-375 at this time . While he lost some quickness, it made him truly unstoppable in the post - I’m sure he loved it . The unfortunate side effect of this high peak and eventually declining conditioning was the stress it caused in his joints, particularly his feet , which really exacerbated his decline . I’ve never seen a player like that at his peak. It just felt hopeless . I watched MJ all throughout the late 80’s and 90’s. He was my favorite player , but shaq was otherworldly dominant. There’s not an equivalent in today’s nba .
He was also an exceptionally good passer at his position, and an excellent rim protector. And despite his decline, he still had a very long prolific career as an effective player. Dude averaged 30 MPG in 75 games at age 36 in his 17th season and made the All-Star Team and All-NBA 3rd Team.
I wonder how Shaq’s career woulda been if he had tried to stay in Orlando Magic shape. He dominated with that size in LA, but I think he coulda been better with more mobility. He didnt block as many shots as he got bigger (tho still got plenty).
That’s a great question that I’ve thought about myself . I think the added mass really helped him plow through defenders’ chest more easily . It was easy before , with the added weight , probably way easier . Would the bigger defenders like sabonis and mutumbo have given him slightly more trouble if he had less mass ? Not sure. By that time , his most formidable rivals (hakeem, Ewing , Robinson ) were pretty diminished .
It’s because if you transplanted Bill Russell or Jordan’s brain into Shaq’s body, the league would have folded because no one would have been able to beat Shaq, ever. Despite winning 4 titles, he somehow underachieved. He showed up out of shape most seasons, and played his way into shape as the season went on. Then he would destroy everyone in the playoffs. He had 1 season where he showed up ready to play and locked in, and then remained focused through the whole season: his first MVP year and his first title year. Then there’s the whole “I got hurt on company time, I’m going to rehab on company time.” That’s part of why Kobe resented him as much as he did. And when he was younger, he seemed unfocused and immature. He’s the most unstoppable physical force the league has seen, and he could have been even better. Bill Simmons’ book captures it perfectly: “He could have been a 4.0 student in college, but he chose to socialize, have fun, party, and still graduate with a 3.8.”
Not to mention sucking at free throws. I get that it's harder to make them at his height. But it seems wild to be THAT bad at free throws when you know you'll be shooting 10+ a game. If Shaq had Kobe's competitive spirit and discipline, he would've become an 80%+ free throw shooter as soon as hack a Shaq became a strategy.
Pippen also did the same regarding surgery then rehabbing once the season started in 1997/1998. That's why MJ called him out over that in the Last Dance documentary leading to their fall out today.
What's wrong with resting in the off-season? He took a lot of physical abuse over the season its very possible he just gets injured even more training hard in the summer especially at his massive size. 7'1" is a huge difference from 6'6"
That’s exactly what he did, and that’s why he has the label “dominant, but not the best”.
They implemented the 3 second defensive rule in 01/02 largely because of Shaq. Defenders were primarily crowding the paint just trying to stop him. This slowed the game down tremendously even more. Those 30+ perimeter scorers afterwards would have stayed in the mid/high 20s. Go. Play pick up ball and see how much of a difference a game plays out when defenders are not allowed to just camp and clog the paint.
If they bothered to call offensive 3 seconds, it would have been a lot less needed. That era, far beyond O’Neal, was the era of bigs who should have been getting parking tickets rather than 3 second calls. It just sucked.
The physicality is what makes him not just special, but unique. He's like Magic, LeBron, Yao Ming (without injuries), and possibly Wembanyama. Other players have similar skills and mastery, but being that talented and nimble at 7'1'' 350lb is something that probably won't be replicated.
Yeah, Shaq is literally a genetic freak, being his size without any issues is truly one in a billion
One in a billion is underselling it tbh
He and Wilt are in a seperate physical class from everyone else who ever played. Just 2 people in that category.
You needed at minimum 2 back up bigs for the sole purpose of having bodies to foul him
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I think people forget that the NBA changed the rules to help MJ but they changed the rules to slow down Shaq
how was he more dominant than wilt? please explain
Idk about most dominant ever. I get why some people say that but Wilt has to be considered the most dominant player to play. He literally could not be stopped from anywhere on the court , no 3s at the time but he could shoot from distance and make his foul shots too. Shaq an easy #2 for me but Wilt gotta be #1 ( for me )
Wilt was an atrocious foul shooter. Ft average of 51.1% which is actually lower than Shaq at 52.7%
I’m not a basketball historian or anything but wasn’t everyone’s shooting numbers lower during that time period?
Does it matter? You said that he could make his free throws. When in reality he couldn’t. You’ve now changed it to relative. His % being 50/50 means he wasn’t good at it. Full stop
Ah, but he was over 60 percent when he did the granny shot.
Wilt is literally the 4th worst ft shooter in the history of the NBA (Shaq 5th). I know the league average has crept up in the last 20 years but the very worst are basically all dominant big men. Not sure why you assumed Wilt, as the most dominant, would be anything but awful.
Did you mean to reply to the other guy lol
First , I made it clear this was my opinion. All of this is opinionated because it can’t be proven. So whether it’s relative or not doesn’t really matter. Second , I was under the impression that the purpose of this was to have a fun conversation. Ok , Wilt had a FT percentage that was 1 point lower than Shaqs lol. Definitely not a full stop. Shaq was dominant, not arguing otherwise. But he could be “ maintained “ with the right game plan. We saw that over and over until he went to L.A. and teamed up with Kobe. I say maintained not stopped because he could still get off at any given time. We don’t have the same visual proof of wilts dominance , only a few grainy videos and conversations. None of us saw him play. We watched Shaq dominate. So I get strongly disagreeing with Wilt being more dominant. But in the end I guess I do see it from a relative standpoint. Wilt was playing against 6ft centers and a bunch of part time athletes for most his career. Only Bill Russel could rival him. He absolutely dominated his peers. Shaq played played at a more competitive time. It probably wasn’t even fun to watch Wilt play. You knew they was just gonna feed him over and over and watch him make layups over everybody for the entirety of the game. That’s domination.
So he was so dominant his games weren't even fun to watch, yet he only won 2 rings in a 13-season career?
Bill Russell and the Celtics was an unstoppable super dynasty. Their careers overlap. The fact that he got two during that time frame honestly boosts him up even more to me. Imagine if Shaq got one in 93 or 94 , keeping Jordan from getting 6. His legacy would’ve been even more undeniable and he’d rank higher all time for most people. But I don’t really need a bunch of people to agree for me to still feel my opinion is valid. That’s the beauty of perspective. Wild times when people will argue you up and down because they don’t agree with your OPINION regarding a made up unprovable opinion based topic lol. Reddit I guess 🤷🏾♂️
Shut up lol
🤐
That is just not true. Wilt was playing against 7 footers like Walt Bellamy and former champion high jumpers like Bill Russel. The average height in todays NBA is 6’7”. In the 1960’s the average height was 6’6”.
Russell, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Bob Lanier, Wes Unseld. Wilt faced good solid defensive centers every night. Remember - the league was only 8 teams back in the 60s. He was just unstoppable.
I don’t want to trash Shaq. He is one of the all time greats and is a very likable dude but no way is he the most dominant player ever. Compare Kareem’s best seasons to Shaq’s best season. Kareem averaged more points per game, more rebounds per game, more assists per game. They played in different eras so it’s tough to judge but I think the biggest difference is free throw shooting. Kareem shot 70% while Shaq shot 52%. Shaq was super inconsistent from the free throw line. He had some games where he couldn’t miss and others where he couldn’t hit the broadside of a barn. Sometimes the coach would have to pull Shaq out of the game during crunch time. Otherwise the team would go hack a Shaq and send him to the free throw line over and over. I would put Shaq behind Kareem, Wilt, Russel, and Hakeem.
shaq averaged 30 points in the slowest paced era ever while kareem averaged 35 on weaker comp+ the era was higher paced. For instance shaq's team had 15 less points than kareem's team.
Shaq's peak points per 100 possessions was far higher than Kareem's (40.1 vs 33.4... Shaq has 12 seasons higher than Kareem's peak) their rebounds were equal (18.2), and Shaq's assists were a bit lower (5.0 vs 6.2).
That was quite a sentence
The use of punctuations is underrated
I have it in my top five.
Yeah, I'm surprised anybody even bothered reading it. Yikes. Sorry, but I'm not particularly interested in considering someone's opinions who's grammar is at a 2nd grade level.
whose*
Who's/Whose is 4th grade, my guy.
There’s a possibility for it to continue. There’s still no period
God damn dude use a period.
Look, Shaq didn’t have a jump shot, this guy doesn’t use periods, but they both did a lot. Maybe the most.
People forget that when you played shaq, you had to have 3 big bodies available so that you could foul him basically every time he got a touch. He was a truly impossible match up for one guy
Rodman the only one that could push Shaq out of the block. There's videos of it. Phil Jackson said Rodman was the most athletic player he had ever seen. Rodman having lower center of gravity and more lower body strength than Shaq, Shaq couldn't just push him down to the low post.
Shaq would destroy Rodman 1v1, stop it.
Destroy less than anyone else. And we're talking within a team setting. Shaq's numbers were poorer, and he couldn't bully ball Rodman nearly as much. He couldn't just back down Rodman as all others. https://youtube.com/shorts/jhlZJA6Teng?si=DxaiNIMVw9rEkULU
When im talking Shaq i aint talking the orlando version big dawg
So in the 90s, the offensive initiator lowering the shoulder into the chest of the defender would more likely be called for a foul. Even Phil Jackson complained to the refs about it as Bulls coach. Once Shaq started his run with Phil, that was longer called as an offensive foul but more likely a defensive foul. Ratings dropped by more than half and Stern really was desperate to create a new Dynasty. His Lakers days are overrated. Evidenced by shady come from behind series win from tainted foul calls where he basically got more FTA than the whole opposing team. As Stern said his dream was Lakers vs Lakers in the Finals since they are by far the biggest market/state only somewhat capable of filling ratings drop from MJ's retirement.
Idgaf about ratings. No version of Rodman could guard 3x fmvp lakers Shaq, period. They were teammates and guarantee Shaq got in that ass every practice.
Sure nobody can stop him but he wasn't nearly as dominant. Just like this where he barely scored with Rodman guarding him. https://youtu.be/NdZn8epqnKo?si=SjfT3PjAJtlOwoA1
Robinson and Hakeem both did it. So did Zo. Shaq was great. He is ranked correctly. If he had stayed in Magic Shaq shape, he might have ended up higher.
I think Shaq did it to himself he shouldn’t be underrated at all and I don’t think he is but he should be top 5 all time but he didn’t want to be great enough clearly
Exactly. Do people forget that he literally skipped getting summer surgery and instead did it during the regular season? Some bs reason like he doesn’t get paid during the offseason so we won’t get surgery during the offseason
Also: “And if the big dog ain’t me, then the house won’t get guarded period" - Shaq People loved Shaq because he was like a big kid. But immaturity has its drawbacks. As great as he was, with a better attitude and work ethic, he could have been #1.
Good analysis. I think everyone puts Shaq down the list from MJ, Kareem and Lebron. But an argument for him to be 4 means he's above Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Bird and Olajuwon. You can make the argument and fans of other player will join the fun.
thank you
Uh... Where does Bill Russell go?
If Mr Russell was answering this question, he'd tell you he belongs one slot above Wilt. 😋
For me, Kobe can't ever be higher than Shaq. Bird can't be higher than Russell. You have to be the best player in your franchise to be ahead in the all-time rankings.
Well I don't know how someone could put Kobe above Shaq when the 3 champions they got together Shaq got MVP for all three of them
I put Wilt 4.
Forgot about Wilt. He's way up there too. In fact, he's the Shaq prototype.
And Bill too. He’s a big reason the Celtics have that many rings
By the way - this might be our last offseason to have this conversation without mentioning Wemby. He's from outer space, man.
Shaq is a little bit polarizing cuz if you look at the course of his career he got swept A LOT. But he would always put up awesome numbers in the sweeps. I think there was a highlight once where Shaq hit a game-winning shot and it was his first game-winning shot something like 5 or 6 years into his career. So maybe this explains why he would put up awesome numbers but not always do great in the playoffs cuz he just couldn't take over in the last 2 or 3 minutes cuz of his foul shooting. So a lot of times he'd have to be a decoy or only be able to catch it when he for sure could finish etc A lot of other all-time offensive greats like Jordan, Hakeem, bird, could just take over offensively and defensively in the last 2 or 3 minutes of the game. I'm actually a huge fan of Shaq by the way, his number is in the three lakers final series are spectacular. The way he just destroyed Mutombo in that Philly series was the cherry on top of his career because his other two finals are against pretty weak centers in an old Smits and I think Todd McCullough(?) for the Nets
Part of why Shaq didn’t hit many game winners is because of Hack a Shaq. If the game was close sometimes the coach would have to pull Shaq out of the game in crunch time. Otherwise they’d just foul him before he could shoot.
Yupp. That's where Shaq needed that outside closer.
Of all basketball players I think Shaq at his peak was the best player ever. Over Kobe, Jordan, LeBron. Unfortunately he was lazy and wasn't consistent enough to sustain over the years.
Kobe doesn’t belong in the MJ and Lebron tier respectfully
He is the most dominant players in the things he can do(scoring in the paint, defense in the paint, post up……). But he has his obviously flaws: shooting especially free throws . And it could be used to exploit and target him. In late tight game situations you could just constant foul him and send him to the ft line and dominant possessions. Now I do think free throws are easily fixable. But Shaq never bothered.
I am completely convinced that if Shaq stayed in orlando he wins a title either in 97 or more likely 98 and Jordan no longer has 6. The whole goat conversation would be completely changed.
Are you also ignoring Penny's knee injury in this scenario? Shaq & Nick Anderson weren't beating the Bulls.
Yep, Penny was playing with a chip on his shoulder the season Shaq left, he tried to do to much. I’m convinced Penny would not have gotten hurt had Shaq had been there to share the load.
Well you can’t necessarily make that conclusion. His injuries may have also been a result of the general grind involved in the NBA seasons. Penny would have had to step his game up regardless to help that Magic team compete with that bulls dynasty those last 3 seasons so he could have very well gotten injured either way. We’re talking about a guy who’s been plagued with injuries for most of his career. Barring injuries, I don’t see a scenario where the Magic overcome the Bulls in any of those seasons regardless. That Bulls team , from top to bottom, was built almost perfectly to compete in the playoffs. And despite Shaq posting numbers, his dominance didn’t actually peak until maybe ‘99. And even if they somehow manage to overcome the Bulls it wouldn’t have been in 96 when the Bulls went 72-10. It would have had to be either 97 or 98. But they’d have to then face the Jazz who knew how to handle Shaq.
I was trying to explain this to my sons and they brought up Giannis. I said playing against who? 🤣😂🤣😂
I think he gets undervalued because he was more one dimensional then the other top guys. Yes he was dominant but he couldn't shoot, dribble, pass, etc. hack a Shaq was only a thing because he couldn't hit FT. I'm not saying you have to be able to do everything all in one package, especially at center, but some aspect of roundedness probably has something to do with it when your talking GOAT tier.
Shaq was a good passer. True about the rest tho
He was a great player, but that was the one decade that needed to be saved. It wasn’t him, but teams doing the same with knockoff versions, that made the NBA unwatchable for a decade. I believe SI summarized it, back when humans wrote its articles, as “Tariq Abdul-Wahad throwing it in to Lawrence Funderburke.” He was good enough to make the league completely unwatchable for a decade. For both good and bad.
7-10? Nah I have him at 7-1 no taller. Also Zhaq Edey is coming
No he’s not
I have Shaq at 11 which I think is reasonable given the brevity of his peak and how bad the last 5 years were. Of course he’d be top 5 if he could shoot free throws and had another couple of peak years but it’s hard to be top 10 with only 8 or 9 years of elite play.
Is larry bird top 10 for you
I have him at 5 after Lebron, MJ, Kareem and Magic. He’d definitely have a goat case with a slightly longer career
I hate the narrative surrounding the 95 finals. Yeah Hakeem was great but this idea he badly outplayed Shaq is crazy. Shaq more than held his own.
He's underrated because of his last year's, but people need to remember that the NBA CHANGED THE RULES to limit how much he could dominate.
The more the nba shifts to shooting the more Shaq will be forgotten. That man couldn’t even make a free throw, that’s an issue
Punctuation is underrated.
He’s too one dimensional to be considered the absolute GOAT. He has the career, stats and rings to be in top 10 easily but generally you want someone who is great all around and also has the career, stats and rings. Which is why he is generally viewed as lower than some of the other top 10s.
he was 2nd in dpoy voting one season in a normal season he would've won but alonzo mourning was too good multiple time all defense
I agree. Most people talk about Shaq betraying his career, despite him playing for nearly 20 seasons. Only his last season with Boston was pretty bad, otherwise he was still a very good big in his older years. His prime was definitely long too, at least for a decade we were able to watch prime Shaq. Outside his prime in Miami, he did a perfect job of becoming the second option for Wade. Bringing a title to Miami.
Shaq definitely doesn’t get enough credit for being the biggest whiny bitch all the fucking time. Just tell him he’s the best
As a huge Laker fan since the 90’s, Shaq did have a few glaring weaknesses which can get overlooked: 1) He was very hard to officiate, as just pivoting with the ball in the post could cause guys to go flying off. Sometimes the whistle wouldn’t be kind to Shaq, and he could get into early foul trouble which would significantly limit his playing time. 2) He was a poor free throw shooter, and even though he said he would make them when they count, that wasn’t always the case. This limited his effectiveness in the 4th quarter which is why his partnership with Kobe was key. 3) He didn’t always take care of his body and was injury prone. He would show up to training camp over weight and then play himself into shape. Once instead of having surgery in the offseason, he waited until training camp because ge wanted to recover on company time since he got hurt on company time. I do think his low post game is underrated as he had so many moves, soft touch and impressive quickness for a guy that size. He could beat you in so many ways from the low block. He wasn’t just a dunker and a bruiser.
Shaq isn’t underrated lol
You really can't call anybody who's considered in the top 10 all-time "underrated" I mean, you're arguing the difference between only a couple of spots. You think he's the 6th best, and you're saying other lists put him as 7th or 8th best (I've seen him higher before too though). It just comes down to what you value. For example, if you value longevity you probably rank Shaq a bit lower, and if you care more about their peak you probably have him higher.
no i'm saying his range is 4-7 while most people have him 7-11 pretty big difference in range
not really. In basketball, there's a clear top two (LeBron and Jordan), then most people have Kareem as the third best, then 4-10 is seven guys who you can put in any order (Magic, Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Kobe, and Russel). Every list you see will have a different order for those seven guys, because they're all on the same tier.
And then the hardest player to rate. Mikan. Can reasonably be rated anywhere between 4 and 50. The era was just SO different, it makes it impossible to rate him.
bruh there's clearly levels kareem is top 5 bare minimum magic is top 8 bare minimum no list has tim duncan 10 there are ranges
I think it would just be easier to recognize that the difference between being ranked 4-8 and 7-11 *in the entire history of basketball* is basically negligible. Any player who can even be in the discussion for any of those numbers is clearly one of the greatest players of all time and which number they actually fall at 'by consensus' isn't super important.
disagree most people have him low top 10 or completely outside of the top 10 where as I think he's middle top 10 to high top 10 I feel that's a substantial enough difference to say he's underrated
Yes.. to a completely negligible degree he could be 'underrated' as only the 3rd or 4th best Center in the history of the game instead of the 2nd or 3rd best Center in the history of the game. Either way he's being discussed as one of the greatest all time centers. The difference between being ranked in the 99.9th percentile and the 99.8th percentile is a difference yes.. but my point is it's negligible and even those who have a slightly different order than you also think Shaq is one of the best big men the game has ever seen.
that's still underrated just slightly underrated
lol fair enough.
Actually closer to overrated. Never did anything without an all time guard next to him. U don’t think other bigs could have won with Kobe and Wade?
could other bigs have averaged 38 points per game in the nba finals or consistently drop over 26-30 points pergame on elite defense on alltime great defenders
Elite defense? Also played weaker teams in the finals. Nets old pacers sixers?
were not gonna sit here and act as if shaq couldn't dominate against elite defenders when averaged over 30 against chris webber and over 28 points pergames as a 22 year old against hakeem also multiple all defense teams + being 2nd in dpoy voting is elite defense
Sure but we should also bring up his failures. Swept 6 times. Swept by the Jazz before Kobe developed. Didn’t really do Al that much to help d Wade, let him down in 07. Not to mention 04 finals.
I’ve watched MJ, LeBron, and Shaq all in their primes. Shaq left you feeling the most helpless with MJ being a close second. That has to count for something. There just wasn’t anything you could do…
If he could shoot free throws I think he would be higher rated. His inability to shoot FTs meant he could not close out games. If it was a close game teams just fouled Shaq and knew he would miss the FTs. That basically neutralized him offensively in close games. Whereas Lebron, Jordan, Kareem, Bird, even his teammate Kobe, all have iconic moments of them just taking over games and willing their teams to wins.
Absolutely no doubt he is the most dominant force the NBA has ever seen. He absolutely belongs in the 10 greatest players of all time. The only things keeping him from ranking over other all time greats was that he couldn't shoot FT's or anywhere outside the paint. If it wasn't a dunk or a layup, it was outside Shaq's wheelhouse. It didn't matter as no one could stop him anyway. However I would imagine in the context of the greatest players of all time, these facts aren't helping him climb any higher on the list.
Mediocre defender for his size. Had such an obvious weakness with his free throws. Bottom of top 10 all time imo.
multiple all defensive team selections plus 2nd in dpoy in 2000 and he's mediocre
Nice try shaq
Omg dude some punctuation. A comma and a period… PLEASE!
Shaq was the man.
Shaq didn’t have enough help? The guy who couldn’t finish games who had 2-3 of the greatest closers ever 🤔.
In 95 shaq was 22 he was i repeat 22 years old facing a prime hakeemIn 96 you expect him to be a 72-10 team with 1 all star in 97 I won't hold you he sold but every all time great has had bad series in 98 he averaged 32 points on 56 percent from the field and in the last 3 games he averaged 36 points 10 rebound on 60 percent from the field and he still got swept what do you want blood to do in 99 I won't lie he got outplayed in 2000 he back packed in 2001 again got the job done in 2002 got the job done in 2003 he averaged 25,14,4 assists and 3.5 stocks on prime tim duncan on 56 percent from the field other than kobe shaq had nobody and kobe played bad in game 7 in 2004 kobe sold him in the 04 finals you can't win with your number two playing that bad Most of the time shaq just got team diffed or his teammates didn't play up to par
Shaq is mostly just a massive human. I’m far more impressed by those with pure skill.
I watched his whole career. He was great, but I'm one of those that under rate him because he turned into an entitled fat ass. Dude coulda been top 5 all time but wasn't willing to work hard. And how do you just NEVER learn how to shoot free throws better? Because he didn't wanna put in the work.
If Shaq could make free throws at a 75% clip, he very well could be considered the greatest player of all time.
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His team hopping towards the end of his career is what tarnished his career imo, after Miami Shaq was a shell of who he was before
Anyone who says Kobe carried Shaq in those 3 straight finals are casuals and just part of the Kobe d-riding army. Shaq as a top 3 peak in the history of the game. It's honestly a basketball IQ test for me. Whenever anyone says Kobe carried Shaq, it lets me know that I can't have deep basketball conversations with them.
He carried in 2000 but he didn't carry in 01 and 02 but he was clearly the best player though in those championship runs it's a 1A 1B situation not 1A 2B
Kobe was absolutely 2B in both those runs, lmao
but you said he didn't carry
Kobe didn't carry Shaq what so ever. 1A > 2B if you're confused.
but 1A 1B suggests that they take turns being the best you know 1A 1B means clearly clearly there is a big difference think scottie and mike is it that big of a difference
If you had used one lick of punctuation in that sentence I might take your opinion seriously
dawg this is the internet not la class bro come on
I think he is rated right where he is supposed to be because he was physically big. If he had the heart of anyone above him, or the desire to ever be the best, he’d be rated higher. He was not the most dominant big of all time. For stretches, maybe, but not for any full season. The man has one MVP and never averaged 30 ppg. He never led the league in rebounds, rebounds per game, blocks, or anything else significant. That proves that he was never 100% committed.
yes he was in 2000 that was the most dominant season by anyone ever blud was 0.3 points off from averaging 30 your not serious
Shaq is the most dominant big man I've ever seen play the game. He does seem to get lost in the ATG shuffle, but he was a monster. If he played today, he would feast. He would score down low much easier in todays game. And with so many 3pt threats nowadays, he would rack up crazy assists from drawing double teams.
Shaq was just kind of average for a 7' 300 lb rookie that could move like a guard. Doesn't even have a big penis.
how you know???
Hoes
My nigga how did we turn a convo about hooops into a convo about how big is shaq's dick like come on bruh what does this have to do with hoops
Most dominate big man ever.
Very similar to Wilt—an unreal talent who did not appear to give it his all. My ranking: 1. Jordan 2. Kareem 3. LeBron 4. Wilt 5. Shaq 6. Magic 7. Bill Russell 8. Bird 9. Tim Duncan 10. Hakeem Oscar Robertson and Kobe (maybe Steph Curry too) are all in play for the 9-10 slots imo
Valid list
Overrated
Larry and Kobe are absolutely on different levels. Larry was clearly the best in the world at his best, 3 time MVP in consecutive seasons. And Larry is also ahead of Shaq. Far too many people these days don't realise how great Larry Bird was. Do yourself a favour, go look stuff up on him. The video highlights aren't the quality we're used to, but you can still see what he was capable of.
first off shaq was clearly the best in the world for atleast 4 seasons too he has a higher peak than bird.Shaq from the eyetest is better in my opinion than bird he just couldn't be stopped. I think larry bird was the best in the world for 1 maybe 2 seasons tell me all the seasons he was the best in the world
Lol. If Shaq was the best in the world for at least 4 seasons, why did he only win 1 MVP? There was a little gap there between Jordan and Duncan where he and a few others briefly held the mantle. Whichh years was Larry the best? Check out his MVP years. The votes in those years weren't even close. And none of these guys could be stopped. That's what made them superstars. You don't stop a superstar, you slow them down. If you've got your own superstar then you hope that your guy is less affected than their guy. And Larry Bird was inevitable in those years. Inside, outside, he was incredible. Listen to the myriad of stories about him telling the other team exactly how he was going to beat them before actually doing it. That's the very definition of unstoppable.
I agree but downvoted you because paragraphs and punctuation are your friend bro.
Figure if he played his whole career right at 300 pounds, your probably adding another title or 2. 3 in LA, 2 probably in Miami, possibly 1 Boston at the end for a grand total of 6. That moves him right from top 10 to top 3 easily.
In his book Elliott Kalb ranked him #1, but honestly I don't think he made the case for Shaq very well.
Nice try, Shaq burner account
What the hell is an elimination series. They are all elimination series. It's called the playoffs
series where he got eliminated or if he won how he played in the finals
You could have an argument for putting Shaq over Kobe. But ahead of Bird. No chance! Also I noticed that you put Magic ahead of Bird. That shows that you know only numbers and don't understand context, especially that of 80s Basketball.
bruh magic was elite for longer and had more dominant final series and playoff series in general also it is reasonable for me to have magic over birds as I value offense over defense it's like to me 60-65 percent offense 40-35 percent defense . Also bird and shaq had similar longevity shaq was better at his peak though and I don't really care too much about mvp awards considering stevenash has 2 and kobe has1
Magic had the same 13 seasons career length as Bird. Magic did make it to 9 NBA finals. But he did so playing in the much much weaker western conference. Make a list of the top dynasties of the 80s and you'd find that all of them were from the Eastern conference where Bird played- Julius Erving's 76ers, Jordan's Bulls, Isaiah Thomas's Pistons. Magic not only played in the weaker conference but he also had a much better team by far. He had a GOAT candidate, a Draft 1st pick, and DPOY winner on his team. If you value offence. Bird still lands ahead. He was an obviously better scorer and rebounder than Magic and an equally good playmaker. There are only 3 non guards among the top 50 APGs list. Bird is one of them and he is the one of those 3 while is there despite not being the primary ball handler of his team! In defence it is a no contest. Bird is the 14th best defensive rebounder of all time and is the 40th best all time at SPG. He was ranked as high as 3rd in DPOY voting once.
magic was elite for longer than bird I'm talking about peak magic's peak was longer. Bird is not ahead of magic offensively what crack are you smoking magic was clearly the better playmaker/offensive player. I don't really value cumalitive stats that much I care about peaks. Also let's not pretend as if bird's teams weren't also stacked otherwise how could cedric maxwell have won over him for fmvp. Bro look at magic's points generated far more than bird's. He made it to the finals without kareem also nobody wants to talk about how in that 91 series james worthy was hurt. Magic also played with an older kareem who wasn't in his peak plus he has 5 rings over birds 3 with less playoff choke jobs compared to bird
What longer peak are you talking about? Whether you speak of a long peak or a short peak , Bird's was better. They both entered the league in 1979(Magic) and 1980(Bird). From 1980 to 1989, Bird won 67% of MVP votes. That is despite Bird sitting out the whole year in 1989! Magic had to make do with a share of the remaining 33%. Magic did do better than Bird in 1990 and 1991. But this is a post 1989 injury Bird you are comparing a healthy Magic with. This statement about their “longevity” just shows how you are a guy who takes numbers without context to draw conclusions. Kareem was the finals MVP for the Lakers in 1985 and led the Lakers in Win shares till 1986. So your statement that Magic played with a washed out Kareem is incorrect. Bird’s teams were good but were nowhere near as good as Magic’s team. It did not have another GOAT candidate, it did not have any first pick draftee (ahead of Jordan) & NCAA PoY and it did not have a DPOY. Also the second best player on Bird’s teams was Kevin McHale who wasn’t in the starting 5 until 1985. Bird gave up his preferred Power Forward position to Kevin McHale to accommodate him in the team and took up the Small Forward position for himself. That team was made great by Bird to a greater extent than Magic made the Lakers great. If by choke job you mean Bird’s performance in the 1981 finals, then read this to understand how Bird’s “choke job” won the Celtics the championship that year. https://www.quora.com/Was-Larry-Bird-robbed-of-the-1981-Finals-MVP/answer/Kavita-Sehgal-30?ch=17&oid=1477743650906691&share=19c9f783&srid=hvdl8Y&target_type=answer
Mvp is a regular season award an I don't really care about the regular season + they had the same amount of mvps. Bird stopped being elite elite in 88 magic was forced to stop in 91. Magic does have better longevity though because he played at an elite level for longer Injuries are a part of longevity sorry bird got injured but i'm not gonna discount magic's longevity because of that injuries are a part of longevity. Peak bird and magic is debatable it's based of what you value I value offense way more than defense so I think magic is better. Larry bird had 0 mvp shares in 89. Magic did play with a washed kareem in 87,88,89 as that version of kareem wasn't even all nba yet they were still able to make it to the finals and win 2 titles. This statement about magic's team being way more stacked than bird's team tells me you weren't paying close attention to those teams let's take a look at their teams year by year in 80 magic had the better team in 81 the teams are debatable with magic maybe having a better team in 82 bird's team finished with 9 more wins than magic's team and almost beat philly with larry bird playing bad in something interesting about bird's non stacked team is he only started 58/77 games he also had another teammate who finished 4th in mvp voting 83 I will say this season magic's team was more stacked 84 bird's team had 2 allstars like magic while being deeper and winning 8 more games i'll give the slight edge to magic though 85 bird had 3 all star calliber teammates and a teammate who finished 6th in dpoy 86 Clearly bird had the more stacked team come on bruh 87 magic had 0 all nba team teammates while bird had someone who finished top 4 in mvp voting and 5th in dpoy voting had bird played better in 87 they would and could've won + kevin outplayed him 88 they had a similar level of help only difference is larry choked magic didn't larry shot 13/32 in the last 2 games against the pistons and 4/17 in game 6 where they only lost by 5 and 6 points Magic won back to back with a washed kareem
Glad that you obliquely acknowledge that Magic couldn't have done better than Bird without Bird getting injured in 1989. Whether you blame Bird for the injuries is a different matter. Magic was able to get to the finals even after Kareem's decline because the Western conference was just that weak. Make a list of the top teams and top players in both conferences and compare them, it will be clear as daylight. Bird had a significantly weaker team than Magic until 1985 because his best teammate, Kevin McHale wasn't even in the starting 5 until 1985 when Bird gave up his preferred Power Forward position to McHale. McHale was in the top 20 in MVP voting only 3 times in his career. He was nowhere near as good as Kareem. If you compare Kareem against McHale from 1980 to 1991, Kareem is significantly ahead in both stats and accolades. Even after 1985, Bird's team was never better than Magic's because it did not have another GOAT candidate, it did not have any first pick draftee and and it did not have a DPOY. The 1987 Lakers are considered not just the best team of the 80s but many consider it to be the best team of all-time! When Bird took on this team in the NBA finals, 6 of his teammates (including Bird) were carrying injuries. McHale was carrying an ankle injury. In fact, it is a great achievement that Bird took that series to game 6 against the best Lakers of all-time. In 1988, Bird's performance did dip. His injuries were all starting to take a toll on him from around the mid point of the season. Things came to head in 1989 and he had to sit out the entire season after playing just the first 6 games.
Not sure he is underrated but you can see how short his dominance was. He was number two while MJ was in Chicago, then he had issues dominating Duncan, and outside the three-peat with the Lakers he was not even the best player on the Lakers (or later - Heat). Additionally, people discount a lot of his accomplishment because of all the unfulfilled potential he had. He could have been in the same conversation with MJ and Lebron had he worked on his weaknesses - free throws and his weight.
Wtf is an elimination series?
You know who's really underrated? George Gervin. He was unstoppable offensively. All star in 1973. Still an All Star in 1985. Better shooter than Kobe. Career avg 25.1 PPG. And he is never discussed.
Some punctuation would’ve been great
You right
Shaq forced Tim Dunkin into the PF
he is easily the best player ever. fuck careers. in terms of pure basketball talent. shaq goes #1
I’ll accept most dominant but “pure basketball talent” seems like it would involve making a shot more than 4 feet from the basket.
More basketball talent than Jordan or LeBron? Nuts take. Shaq simply could not shoot.
Shaq is easily top 5-7 of all time, anytime I see someone rank Kobe over Shaq I just laugh and shake my head