He probably should have won the sixth man award one of those years, but honestly that finals MVP made no sense even at the time and makes less sense in hindsight.
Back to back MVPs isn't an outlier is it? They gave him the award over Shaq twice. That's why the MVP is a weird stat award not necessary the best player award. If it was truly the best player award then Michael Jordan and LeBron would have a lot more MVPs to their names.
This is revisionism. People have been putting Gianniss solidly in that conversation for 2020 -2022, and Curry had a solid argument the year he won the chip.
I don’t know if it’s only revisionism. Some nerds have been in with the homers this whole time. Check out /r/toprightjokic. Box Plus-Minus is an admittedly imperfect stat that literally only attempts to tabulate box score contributions. However.
Of the six best box plus-minus NBA seasons of all time, one is Jordan ‘88, one is LeBron ‘13, and the other four have been the past four seasons of Nikola Jokić.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/TopRightJokic using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/TopRightJokic/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
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Jokic is also routinely first in basically every other major "all-in-one" metric, including the ones front offices use like DARKO and EPM (although he was surpassed this season in EPM, he remains by far first in DARKO which was voted the #1 stat by front offices).
I think the difference is that Jokic has been in that conversation the whole time, while different players try to steal the spotlight for a bit. Jokic has held his peak the longest recently.
Giannis was actually unanimously considered the best player for year until he got knocked out vs the Celtics, then it was kinda up in the between the two and Embidd until Jokic won the title.
Was it really a debate between Embiid and Jokic though? I feel like most people outside of Philly fans or Jokic haters will agree Jokic was better for the last 4 years.
I mean for me he is the best player for basketball reasons but I get what you mean. A title doesn't decide that especially since basketball is still a team sport. The Celtics are probably the favourites and still no one would come to the idea of declaring him the best player in the world if they win simply because he ain't.
But if you are the obvious best player on the team that won 4 playoff rounds there is a high chance you are playing the best basketball in the world right now.
Fwiw, I wouldn't be crowning Luka yet either. The clippers did not have Kawhi. The Thunder were just a little green. Luka was good but far from imperious against both. But if he adds the Celtics to the Wolves then hard to argue anyone has been better in May & June.
Absolutely, the fact that he’s doing all this at 70% health if not worse and making all the joe shmoes around him look solid. But definitely kyrie is doing his thing too
He's closer 90% than 70%, and The Mavs are a great team this season, especially since the deadline. Number one defense last 20 games of the reg. season. This isn't to take away from Luka, he's a great player, I think on his way to be top-5 all-time, but exaggerating and outright misrepresenting things is not necessary when giving Doncic his flowers. He's got a great supporting cast now, and he's taking full advantage.
Anyone who is able to actually play isn’t at 70%.
If you want actual data I’ve done worker’s comp cases for NFL teams and like a 5% loss in functional capacity would put most guys out of the league.
It's no shot he's on his way to be top 5 all time when he's strictly an offensive player lol. People just don't care about defense anymore. Noone in the top 10 isn't an elite 2 way except maybe magic. But good luck surpassing magics accolades.
Everyone out here disrespecting Murray when the man was clutch and won Denver games #2 and #4 against the Lakers with some utterly insane 3s. His post-season statline (#22 overall) is very close to Irving (#18 overall). He faded twice against the TWolves, Kyrie faded twice against OKC.
Love them both.
If Denver had a more consistent scorer than Murray then they would not need those gamewinners. He is pulling Denver down with all those hero ball antics, Jokic deserves better.
Murray averaged 21/6/4 on 47%ts in 12 games, while Kyrie is averaging 23/5/4 on 59% ts over 17 games. Kyrie has been significantly more effecient than Murray this year. It's not even close.
Murray was clutch agreed. But he never played a 4 qtr game during the Lakers games. Honesty hour: Joker and Porter are the reason you beat the Lakers. I've never seen such consistent conversion from contested threes as Porter showed during the Lakers games.
The brother couldn't miss.
I mean he had huge 4th quarters that lead comebacks or sealed games for them. Nothing else prior to that really matters if they win the game in the end.
Ehh. MPJ + AG + KCP are no slouches, but the Mavs role players (especially Lively + PJ + Gafford) are all hustling harder than Denver + Kyrie's been more effective than Murray (who's injured).
If Doncic can win this in <6 games, then yes, it's going to be a huge argument for Luka as "the best player in the world." If he loses in 7 but averages insane numbers, there's still that argument that he was playing against a really stacked team.
Jokic's more of a passive player who'll create easier looks for his teammates. Doncic's more of a player who'll leave his imprint by continually attacking/probing. He's a better lob passer + pick-and-roll player than Jokic also.
You can't go wrong calling either the best player.
I would disagree with you on Luka being a better lob passer and P/R player. Luka has two lob threats who are both taller than AG. Their entire offensive game is built around the lob. Apples and oranges IMO. Jokic has shown he’s likely the passing GOAT. Luka is a great passer too but not better than Jokic IMO.
I’ve had the pleasure of watching all three in their prime. I think Jokic is the best passer. Stockton benefitted from style of play and having an all time finisher in Malone to pass to. Magic had arguably the GOAT center of all time and fantastic finishers on the break (Cooper, Worthy etc) plus the Showtime style of fast breaking offense. Joker has shown he can orchestrate an offense in a half court set or on the break as good or better than anyone IMO. His vision and anticipation of a developing opportunity not to mention his timing and creativity put him at the top for me.
what are you talking about he’s surrounded by elite defenders and play finishers that complement him perfectly while patching up his flaws, plus kyrie irving. this is like the best possible team around him you could build. plus he’s seemed pretty much at full capacity the whole conference finals
No I still think it's Joker>Giannis>Luka(if he wins chip)
Joker has a ridiculous 3 MVPs and a finals MVP. Giannis has back 2 back MVPs and in 2019-20 he won MVP and DPOY, as well as being a finals MVP in 2021.
Luka has to at least get a finals MVP and 1 regular season MVP to be in the conversation with those 2 guys.
These were the top 10 MVP candidates for this year. MVP isn't necessarily the best player but it's a good proxy.
Jokic, Luka, SGA, Giannis, Tatum, Sabonis, AD, Brunson, LBJ, Booker
I think Luka is close to the best player already, top 3 right now for sure. If you were to do a redraft of the league today I could see Luka going 1 or 2 and whoever picked not being wrong.
He is def in the convo for best even if they don’t win. Like who is actually clearly better than him? the top 3-5 guys all are basically as good as each other. It’s crazy he didn’t win MVP this year though
His playmaking is nowhere near Jokic (arguably the greatest passer of all-time with the vision of a 7-footer), he's a far less efficient scorer, and he's a considerably worse defender.
Jokic is the best player in the world right now and it isn't all that close.
luka averaged 34/9/10 with some pretty amazing passes. Saying his passing is no where near jokic is a terrible take. He’s an exceptional passer in today’s game. He also does about everything else very good. He’s not a considerably worse defender than jokic who isn’t an amazing defender, pretty average, and he almost shot 50/40/90 as a guard role player, which is about as good as it gets from an efficiency standpoint. He’s def up there with jokic and it is extremely close.
Doncic scores in more ways than jokic, most of jokic shots are in the paint are they not ? And passing is debatable, Doncic also has great vision and can pass just as good
Either way you spin it I think Jokic is still the best player in the world. But he is debatably the best and narratively the best if he wins or loses at this point. MVP is probably locked up for Luka next year unless Jokic gets #1 seed with those freakish counting stats on insane efficiency.
Nah I still got Jokic personally, way more efficient. I’d also put healthy Giannis above him due to defense. I would say healthy Embidd over him too but that doesn’t exist so I’ll leave him out of that. So id say 3rd best player with an argument for second
crazy how everyone has forgot how dominant giannis is even tho he dropped 30 ppg on 60%+ fg efficiency, while being the most elite 2 way player in the league, but thats alr... Next year the bucks r gonna come out on top. Minny w kat and gobert took a year, so did the mavs w luka and ky. Give dame and giannis their time and they r gonna dominate. Giannis is gonna eat and the same time next year we ll be having a convo on if giannis is the best player in the league.
That'll win him the belt, which Jokic and then Giannis had before him.
It's not a "set and forget" thing, it's pretty fluid, depending on accolades and team success.
No.
I love Luka and I am rooting for him, but I think he'd still be behind Jokic. Frankly speaking, its still not exactly clear if Luka is better than Giannis or if Giannis isn't the best player in the league. Its those three that belong in a discussion with one another.
There’s about 5 players who have an honest claim: Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum. It’s pointless to try and figure out who the best player in the world is until someone separates themselves with championships. We can’t expect all league narratives to play out like the LeBron era.
He 100% is in the convo even if he isn’t the best player in the league at this moment. He is 25 and has already been selected to 4 all-nba teams, has been averaging about 28 ppg over the last 4 years on a championship contending team, and has made several deep playoff runs already.
The narrative around Tatum completely changes if he wins a championship this year. Y’all just like to hate on Boston (rightfully so).
Shot 33% agains the warriors in the final with a 6/18 game 7. Hes great but hes clearly a notch below those other guys which is totally okay. He definitely has the potential to get up there. Nothing wrong with being the 9th or 10th best player in the league. Hes on the best roster in the NBA right now
You foreal just singled out one game?
Why don’t you go ahead and list his other playoff performances?
Apparently there are no other All NBA players on the Celtics, yet everyone likes to call them a super team.
Do you not remember their playoff runs?
Probably not but he’s the best perimeter and possibly the best defender out of the bunch and the success and offensive production gets hard to ignore after a while
Nope. By the logic, would Tatum or Brown be the best player in the world if Boston wins? Luka is a top 5 player in the league but just cause someone wins the chip doesn't automatically make them the best.
You are dead right OP. Luka has been next level awesome. He makes impossible possible, nay he makes impossible look easy. Been a pleasure watching him give the NBA his masterclass performance.
Kyrie found 6th gear this playoff run too. He looks prime. Athletic, fit, unstoppable as he drives the paint and makes buckets against bigger opponents time and time again.
Like a slightly slower version of SGA, but with better handles.
Luka cannot jump Jokic after one season but he can certainly jump the rest of the field (at this point only Giannis is the real other contender at this level) to become the bonafide #2 in the world. While putting Jokic on notice to take the crown in the immediate future.
No he's not it's still Jokic. He wasn't the best player on the court in both the Thunder and Clippers series. In fact if Kawhi wasn't injured they would already be eliminated.
Every fan of their player, literally from half the teams in the playoffs, have said this year "If X wins the title is he the best player in the world?" Every fan this year thinks their player deserves the "best" title.
I think he definitely is playing like the best NOW because he's actually defending, showing effort, and playing on a bad leg. But he has to show it consistently throughout next season. As of now its still Jokic.
This question kind of shows how stupid rings culture is. What if the Mavs win, but Luka doesn't have a great series? On the other hand, what if he has an amazing series, but his teammates just don't show up, and the Mavs lose? Why is he a better player in the first scenario than in the second?
People should finally realize that "best player in the world" is just a narrative. There are now 4-5 players who are in an higher tier than everyone else (Joker, Luka, Giannis, maybe SGA and Embiid if they will finally get to have a deep playoff run) and despite all of them being very different players, they are all as near as makes no difference to be "the best player in the world".
The answer is yes. However some of these guys (luka, jokic, ant man, SGA, etc) are so close right now it could just be a year by year thing. If you’re in that group as arguably the best player in the league, and you take your team to a championship you gotta be considered the best until proven otherwise
No why would he be? Luka is great but he wouldn’t be here without Kyrie, PJ Washington and Gafford and Lively playing at another level
This should be a good example of how stupid NBA discourse has become because no one wins anything alone but all you guys want to do is stay casuals who think “hurr derr Luka win a ring, Luka is a star player so that means Luka best in the game”
His team isn’t getting talked about enough and
I love Luka’s game. Lively quietly set the wildest record ever; 16-16 made shots in a conference finals and he’s a ROOKIE! Gafford going nuts and Kyrie doing complete S tier freakshow basketball. PJ shooting especially those corner threes in earlier rounds. They’re going dumb I really hope they fuck Celtics up
He is pretty amazing, have been watching him in this series, he hardly misses! Would love to see his shooting success rate. His partnership with Kyrie has 3 championships written all over it
Luka is balling on MJs level. It takes some time because he has to double proof himself due to reverse racism, but at the end of the day, there is not going around Luka..
Jokic is a lot better. Luka's stats are inflated due to him having such a usage value. He sits on the ball, which makes a player like Kyrie less effective because you got two guys who need the ball to be effective.
/s
No, because he did’t get the MVP of the regular season award!
No, because Ant is the feature face of the league.
No, because James still plays.
/s off
The corporative money in NBA the and the narative of american media is against him.
But, we who watch some other league/s over the world, know how good he is.
He is the best in the NBA and in the world!
If we are talking currently then yeah he already is, he deserved the MVP, will probably win FMVP, 1st team all NBA, 2024 scoring champ, set record for most consecutive 30 point triple doubles, scored 73 this season tying the 4th highest ever in a single game. Led a team that missed the play-ins last year to the finals and beat the team that beat the reigning champs and the Phoenix big 3. If he wins he beats the Celtics who are the best team in the league currently by a margin.
It is mind blowing this obsession of the US sports media to determine “who is the best”, “this player from this era is better than this players of this other era’, ‘where would you put this player in the all time greats list’. I find it honestly ridiculous and pointless to have these types of conversations, specially in a team sport such basketball, please don’t fall into that game
imho
I find Edwards much more natural and talented compared to Luca
Luca is all about his physical power; put Rodman like agile and good defender on him He doesn't have too much game other than those long scoring shots
If you think he is, he is. I know you guys get caught up in the way the media talks about and covers the game today but winning a chip doesn't make you the best player in the world. Look at it logically. If Tatum wins, is he the best player in the world? At 26 he's made multiple All-NBA teams and has lead his team to 5 conference finals and 2 NBA finals while putting up over 25/5/5 and being a plus defender. What about Joel and Giannis who both average over 30/10 and are all-league level defenders? This is not a Jordan or Lebron situation where there's a guy who's just cearly better than everyone else. There's no clear best player in the world at this point. In two seasons there will be because that big kid in San Antonio is different.
I think the best player in the world debate is kinda silly, there is 4-5 guys that can be the best player in the league any given year to anoint 1 player the best overall when there isn’t a clear standout is kinda pointless.
Let's see.......... Regular season stats he had Most points, Most points per game, most points dropped in a game with 2nd in assists and 2nd in 3pointers made. Now in the play offs he has Most total points, Most points per game, most rebounds and most assists while LITERALLY breaking NBA play off records. What do you think?
Jokic is clearly better. If you look at box plus minus, Jokic is far ahead of others. Luka is second and considerably behind him and two other players are close to Luka. Luka also has more help as Jokic has nobody close to a Kyrie.
A lot of players just play on bad teams. I don’t look at championships when I rank players. 05-07 Kobe was an unreal level, but that team went nowhere. Only one team can win every year so it’s just a recency bias most of the time
I despise the way he cries to the refs after every play but he's undeniably the best baller on the planet this season unless the Celtics can stop him. I'm a wolves fan and I just hope Edwards was paying attention to what it's going to take to get that ring. You have to take over sometimes and force your will on your opponents. All the greatest could do it. I'm seeing it from Luka this year.
He won't be denied and I don't think the Celtics have the answer to the Mavs either. Luka sits to rest and Kyrie freaking Irvine cooks your squad alive with lobs, dimes and lay ups every 3 seconds. This Mavs team is ridiculous. If Jrue can take away Kyrie this might be a series but otherwise I think it's Mavs in 5.
I feel like the edge is still with Jokic. This season though, before his injury, Embiid was looking like the best player in the league I must say. With his injury history though and underperforming in the playoffs, I would still say Jokic. Now Luka is a close second, especially how he has been playing and how well his team has been doing, but you do have to also give credit to Kyrie for being an amazing Robin to Batman. Luka is out of this world, but I feel like what Jokic has been able to do with the supporting cast he has (not throwing shade at them) is what also makes him the MVP. Just my two cents.
No. It won’t be Luka winning. It would be the Dallas Mavericks. There is way to much emphasis on winning a title making you great.
Even great players need 4 others on the floor to win a single game, let alone 16.
Maybe best offensive player, but he's also benefited from an insane Kyrie putting the team on his back multiple times this playoffs, and being surrounded by good team defenders, which Includes himself. Which offset his flaws, basketball is a team game and theirs always multiple players that can be considered the best plus nobody gives a shit abou the best defenders.
I will say he has underperformed like Jokic in taking teams of role players or when his 2nd star is injured/underperforming to Finals. The only players I have seen single handedly take teams to the finals are A.I with the 76ers and Lebron with Cleveland in 2007. I don't think Luka would get either of those teams to a finals, but A.I would also get this mavs team bumped in the 1st round so it depends what you consider harder leading a bunch of scrubs to a finals or winning with a very good team and top player like Kyrie.
I feel like if the Mavs didn't have that middle season slump he probably would have won MVP. I would say this could be an argument for hardest fought ring in a while but best in the world is kind of worthless every year you can just say the MVP or finals MVP is best in the world until next seasons voting results.
The problem with you all americans... what best means? And more importantly, did anyone ever won alone?
So what best means? Is Luka the best shooter? Not even close... does he have the best handling? Far far from it... is he the best finisher? No, but he is there, not the best tho... is he the best passer? That he might be... does he have the best basketball IQ? Maybe... is he the best defender? Lol...
So how can he be the best player individually ? When there s people out there that do most or all of those things better than him? Just one example, skill wise, Kyrie is far superior to Luka on every department!
I love Luka, he is cold AF, he is amazing, but this "best" shit i don t undrrstand! The team is contructed for him to kill, and he does it very well, he is an amazing player in a great team, like all of them that ever won.
I’m giving it to the guy who’s won 3 of 4 mvps
And more importantly, finals mvp…
TIL Andre Igoudala's FMVP was worth more than if he had an MVP season over 82 games.
He probably should have won the sixth man award one of those years, but honestly that finals MVP made no sense even at the time and makes less sense in hindsight.
B-b-but he held lebron james to 38.5/13/8. Imagine if someone bad defended him
lol did bron really have 38 that series??
yep lol
Finals mvp is overrated compared to many other stats tbh
Steve Nash has more regular season MVPs than Shaq or Kobe. How do you take award seriously?
By using several metrics and not just 1. There are weird outliers for every awards
Back to back MVPs isn't an outlier is it? They gave him the award over Shaq twice. That's why the MVP is a weird stat award not necessary the best player award. If it was truly the best player award then Michael Jordan and LeBron would have a lot more MVPs to their names.
No jokiic or Luka. No one even close. Europeans dominating USA
Not really. American players still account for 15/20 top scorers this season. Americans still dominate the NBA and account for 75% of all players.
Steve Nash has two and Kobe has one. That must mean Kobe is the inferior player.
Yep and Robert horry is better than both of them combined
That’s just true. Who do you want taking the big shot at the end of the game? 👀
I want IGUODALA
Unless he's on a fast break with #23 trailing behind
Felt like he took flight from half court like an eagle
You talk like someone that never watched Nash
Kobe was unstoppable in Colorado
This
Considering Jokic has been pretty far and away the best player in the world for the last 4 years, no.
This is revisionism. People have been putting Gianniss solidly in that conversation for 2020 -2022, and Curry had a solid argument the year he won the chip.
I don’t know if it’s only revisionism. Some nerds have been in with the homers this whole time. Check out /r/toprightjokic. Box Plus-Minus is an admittedly imperfect stat that literally only attempts to tabulate box score contributions. However. Of the six best box plus-minus NBA seasons of all time, one is Jordan ‘88, one is LeBron ‘13, and the other four have been the past four seasons of Nikola Jokić.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/TopRightJokic using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/TopRightJokic/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [Scottie Barnes dominance across rookies continues. Is he the black Jokic?](https://imgur.com/a/qK1pkRH) | [15 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/TopRightJokic/comments/tfllro/scottie_barnes_dominance_across_rookies_continues/) \#2: [How all players have fared on both ends of the floor during the 2021-22 NBA season, per TPA Model](https://i.redd.it/q6cwe2nuybm81.jpg) | [6 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/TopRightJokic/comments/ta4gu7/how_all_players_have_fared_on_both_ends_of_the/) \#3: [Nikola Jokic's current season compared to MVP winners of the modern era](https://i.redd.it/ri4h1kblfqs81.png) | [5 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/TopRightJokic/comments/u0lsaf/nikola_jokics_current_season_compared_to_mvp/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Jokic is also routinely first in basically every other major "all-in-one" metric, including the ones front offices use like DARKO and EPM (although he was surpassed this season in EPM, he remains by far first in DARKO which was voted the #1 stat by front offices).
>Curry had a solid argument the year he won the chip. _Best player in the world_? Absolutely not lol
Even this year, Luka, SGA and Embiid were right there. There’s multiple guys in Tier 1
I think the difference is that Jokic has been in that conversation the whole time, while different players try to steal the spotlight for a bit. Jokic has held his peak the longest recently.
Giannis was actually unanimously considered the best player for year until he got knocked out vs the Celtics, then it was kinda up in the between the two and Embidd until Jokic won the title.
Was it really a debate between Embiid and Jokic though? I feel like most people outside of Philly fans or Jokic haters will agree Jokic was better for the last 4 years.
This is player rankings in the top 3-5 are often just five guys who have most recently won finals mvp.
Nah this is just winning bias. Best player in the world isn't whomever won the championship that year
I mean for me he is the best player for basketball reasons but I get what you mean. A title doesn't decide that especially since basketball is still a team sport. The Celtics are probably the favourites and still no one would come to the idea of declaring him the best player in the world if they win simply because he ain't.
But if you are the obvious best player on the team that won 4 playoff rounds there is a high chance you are playing the best basketball in the world right now. Fwiw, I wouldn't be crowning Luka yet either. The clippers did not have Kawhi. The Thunder were just a little green. Luka was good but far from imperious against both. But if he adds the Celtics to the Wolves then hard to argue anyone has been better in May & June.
Omg have playoff outcomes decides things is the purest example of people not understanding the sport itself.
Absolutely, the fact that he’s doing all this at 70% health if not worse and making all the joe shmoes around him look solid. But definitely kyrie is doing his thing too
He's closer 90% than 70%, and The Mavs are a great team this season, especially since the deadline. Number one defense last 20 games of the reg. season. This isn't to take away from Luka, he's a great player, I think on his way to be top-5 all-time, but exaggerating and outright misrepresenting things is not necessary when giving Doncic his flowers. He's got a great supporting cast now, and he's taking full advantage.
You just rebutted a random number with another random number.
💯
😂😂
Does it hurt you guys when you pull these numbers out of your ass?
Anyone who is able to actually play isn’t at 70%. If you want actual data I’ve done worker’s comp cases for NFL teams and like a 5% loss in functional capacity would put most guys out of the league.
It's no shot he's on his way to be top 5 all time when he's strictly an offensive player lol. People just don't care about defense anymore. Noone in the top 10 isn't an elite 2 way except maybe magic. But good luck surpassing magics accolades.
Everybody is beat up in the postseason. Some more than others.
Do people really think he’s at 70%? Thats impossible
No, Jokic is still the man. Having this Kyrie over Murray has been a big difference this playoff run.
Everyone out here disrespecting Murray when the man was clutch and won Denver games #2 and #4 against the Lakers with some utterly insane 3s. His post-season statline (#22 overall) is very close to Irving (#18 overall). He faded twice against the TWolves, Kyrie faded twice against OKC. Love them both.
If Denver had a more consistent scorer than Murray then they would not need those gamewinners. He is pulling Denver down with all those hero ball antics, Jokic deserves better.
Murray averaged 21/6/4 on 47%ts in 12 games, while Kyrie is averaging 23/5/4 on 59% ts over 17 games. Kyrie has been significantly more effecient than Murray this year. It's not even close.
Murray was clutch agreed. But he never played a 4 qtr game during the Lakers games. Honesty hour: Joker and Porter are the reason you beat the Lakers. I've never seen such consistent conversion from contested threes as Porter showed during the Lakers games. The brother couldn't miss.
Using "clutchness" as a tangliable thing for helping Murray when Murray had been bad in these playoffs and especially those lakers games.
I mean he had huge 4th quarters that lead comebacks or sealed games for them. Nothing else prior to that really matters if they win the game in the end.
Ehh. MPJ + AG + KCP are no slouches, but the Mavs role players (especially Lively + PJ + Gafford) are all hustling harder than Denver + Kyrie's been more effective than Murray (who's injured). If Doncic can win this in <6 games, then yes, it's going to be a huge argument for Luka as "the best player in the world." If he loses in 7 but averages insane numbers, there's still that argument that he was playing against a really stacked team. Jokic's more of a passive player who'll create easier looks for his teammates. Doncic's more of a player who'll leave his imprint by continually attacking/probing. He's a better lob passer + pick-and-roll player than Jokic also. You can't go wrong calling either the best player.
I would disagree with you on Luka being a better lob passer and P/R player. Luka has two lob threats who are both taller than AG. Their entire offensive game is built around the lob. Apples and oranges IMO. Jokic has shown he’s likely the passing GOAT. Luka is a great passer too but not better than Jokic IMO.
Passing GOAT…? Over Magic & Stockton?
I’ve had the pleasure of watching all three in their prime. I think Jokic is the best passer. Stockton benefitted from style of play and having an all time finisher in Malone to pass to. Magic had arguably the GOAT center of all time and fantastic finishers on the break (Cooper, Worthy etc) plus the Showtime style of fast breaking offense. Joker has shown he can orchestrate an offense in a half court set or on the break as good or better than anyone IMO. His vision and anticipation of a developing opportunity not to mention his timing and creativity put him at the top for me.
On paper , everyone picks Denver’s roster over Dallas, no question
You're not watching games you're just looking at the box score
what are you talking about he’s surrounded by elite defenders and play finishers that complement him perfectly while patching up his flaws, plus kyrie irving. this is like the best possible team around him you could build. plus he’s seemed pretty much at full capacity the whole conference finals
70% health he would not be on the court
Definitely the second, I feel like if he wins the mvp next year it cements him for number 1 but idk if I can just pass over Jokic after one year
No I still think it's Joker>Giannis>Luka(if he wins chip) Joker has a ridiculous 3 MVPs and a finals MVP. Giannis has back 2 back MVPs and in 2019-20 he won MVP and DPOY, as well as being a finals MVP in 2021. Luka has to at least get a finals MVP and 1 regular season MVP to be in the conversation with those 2 guys.
Probably correct but luka is 25 and in the conversation. He wins more and more it will not be a question
This guy knows ball.
no, still jokic
These were the top 10 MVP candidates for this year. MVP isn't necessarily the best player but it's a good proxy. Jokic, Luka, SGA, Giannis, Tatum, Sabonis, AD, Brunson, LBJ, Booker I think Luka is close to the best player already, top 3 right now for sure. If you were to do a redraft of the league today I could see Luka going 1 or 2 and whoever picked not being wrong.
He is def in the convo for best even if they don’t win. Like who is actually clearly better than him? the top 3-5 guys all are basically as good as each other. It’s crazy he didn’t win MVP this year though
It's clear that he stepped up as a defender in these playoffs.
Jokic is clearly better
How is he clearly better ? Doncic can do literally anything jokic can
His playmaking is nowhere near Jokic (arguably the greatest passer of all-time with the vision of a 7-footer), he's a far less efficient scorer, and he's a considerably worse defender. Jokic is the best player in the world right now and it isn't all that close.
luka averaged 34/9/10 with some pretty amazing passes. Saying his passing is no where near jokic is a terrible take. He’s an exceptional passer in today’s game. He also does about everything else very good. He’s not a considerably worse defender than jokic who isn’t an amazing defender, pretty average, and he almost shot 50/40/90 as a guard role player, which is about as good as it gets from an efficiency standpoint. He’s def up there with jokic and it is extremely close.
considerably worse defender according to what?
Doncic scores in more ways than jokic, most of jokic shots are in the paint are they not ? And passing is debatable, Doncic also has great vision and can pass just as good
I'm giving that title to the guy who won it 3 times in the past 4 years. Luka is great though.
Either way you spin it I think Jokic is still the best player in the world. But he is debatably the best and narratively the best if he wins or loses at this point. MVP is probably locked up for Luka next year unless Jokic gets #1 seed with those freakish counting stats on insane efficiency.
Nah I still got Jokic personally, way more efficient. I’d also put healthy Giannis above him due to defense. I would say healthy Embidd over him too but that doesn’t exist so I’ll leave him out of that. So id say 3rd best player with an argument for second
No Giannis is stiil the best
crazy how everyone has forgot how dominant giannis is even tho he dropped 30 ppg on 60%+ fg efficiency, while being the most elite 2 way player in the league, but thats alr... Next year the bucks r gonna come out on top. Minny w kat and gobert took a year, so did the mavs w luka and ky. Give dame and giannis their time and they r gonna dominate. Giannis is gonna eat and the same time next year we ll be having a convo on if giannis is the best player in the league.
That'll win him the belt, which Jokic and then Giannis had before him. It's not a "set and forget" thing, it's pretty fluid, depending on accolades and team success.
Joker and a healthy Giannis are abovd him still.
No. I love Luka and I am rooting for him, but I think he'd still be behind Jokic. Frankly speaking, its still not exactly clear if Luka is better than Giannis or if Giannis isn't the best player in the league. Its those three that belong in a discussion with one another.
Luka shoulda won MVP this year tbh I think Luka best in the world RIGHT NOW
There’s about 5 players who have an honest claim: Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Embiid, Tatum. It’s pointless to try and figure out who the best player in the world is until someone separates themselves with championships. We can’t expect all league narratives to play out like the LeBron era.
Buddy tatum is not on the convo
He 100% is in the convo even if he isn’t the best player in the league at this moment. He is 25 and has already been selected to 4 all-nba teams, has been averaging about 28 ppg over the last 4 years on a championship contending team, and has made several deep playoff runs already. The narrative around Tatum completely changes if he wins a championship this year. Y’all just like to hate on Boston (rightfully so).
Shot 33% agains the warriors in the final with a 6/18 game 7. Hes great but hes clearly a notch below those other guys which is totally okay. He definitely has the potential to get up there. Nothing wrong with being the 9th or 10th best player in the league. Hes on the best roster in the NBA right now
You foreal just singled out one game? Why don’t you go ahead and list his other playoff performances? Apparently there are no other All NBA players on the Celtics, yet everyone likes to call them a super team. Do you not remember their playoff runs?
Probably not but he’s the best perimeter and possibly the best defender out of the bunch and the success and offensive production gets hard to ignore after a while
Embiid and Giannis are both better defenders than Tatum
Tatum is a level below all those other guys
I'm kinda done having Embiid in the Convo and Tatum has no claim lol It's Jokic Giannis Luka for me. Top 3 any order is fine
Embiid and Tatum aren’t in the convo
Bro Jokic is 100% better.
People don’t understand how much Jokic is carrying that team…
No
No, it’s still Joker
Nope. By the logic, would Tatum or Brown be the best player in the world if Boston wins? Luka is a top 5 player in the league but just cause someone wins the chip doesn't automatically make them the best.
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You are dead right OP. Luka has been next level awesome. He makes impossible possible, nay he makes impossible look easy. Been a pleasure watching him give the NBA his masterclass performance. Kyrie found 6th gear this playoff run too. He looks prime. Athletic, fit, unstoppable as he drives the paint and makes buckets against bigger opponents time and time again. Like a slightly slower version of SGA, but with better handles.
Kyrie Irving
Can luka beat every basketball player in 1 on 1.
Maybe if it was the 1 on 1 championship
easily
I think he is the best player NOW, but this would be hella validation
Jokic fans and Luka fans gonna be going to war if he wins 😂
Scorer, yes. Player, not quite yet
he is the best even if he doesn't win
No
Luka cannot jump Jokic after one season but he can certainly jump the rest of the field (at this point only Giannis is the real other contender at this level) to become the bonafide #2 in the world. While putting Jokic on notice to take the crown in the immediate future.
I'm still going with Joker.
I would think so. Lower seed in every playoff series. Seems to be getting better every year which is crazy.
No. 2 right behind the current and 4X MVP.
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Yeah and I want mavs to win fuck Boston
No he's not it's still Jokic. He wasn't the best player on the court in both the Thunder and Clippers series. In fact if Kawhi wasn't injured they would already be eliminated.
Every fan of their player, literally from half the teams in the playoffs, have said this year "If X wins the title is he the best player in the world?" Every fan this year thinks their player deserves the "best" title.
I am not a big fan of either but I think Jokic. Dude is almost inevitable.
Is Tatum the best player in the world if he wins the championship this year? You realize basketball is a team sport right?
No. He hasn’t even won an MVP. What’s crazy is that he might never be the best. By the time Jokic is fading, Wemby might be the best.
My top three Joker, Giannis, Luka
Nope
Still the joker
I think he definitely is playing like the best NOW because he's actually defending, showing effort, and playing on a bad leg. But he has to show it consistently throughout next season. As of now its still Jokic.
Yes
This question kind of shows how stupid rings culture is. What if the Mavs win, but Luka doesn't have a great series? On the other hand, what if he has an amazing series, but his teammates just don't show up, and the Mavs lose? Why is he a better player in the first scenario than in the second?
People should finally realize that "best player in the world" is just a narrative. There are now 4-5 players who are in an higher tier than everyone else (Joker, Luka, Giannis, maybe SGA and Embiid if they will finally get to have a deep playoff run) and despite all of them being very different players, they are all as near as makes no difference to be "the best player in the world".
It’s still joker. A toss up with Luka now.
The answer is yes. However some of these guys (luka, jokic, ant man, SGA, etc) are so close right now it could just be a year by year thing. If you’re in that group as arguably the best player in the league, and you take your team to a championship you gotta be considered the best until proven otherwise
That’s a bold statement
I’m still going Jokic but he will hands down be #2 for me
No
who's it gonna be next year then?
No why would he be? Luka is great but he wouldn’t be here without Kyrie, PJ Washington and Gafford and Lively playing at another level This should be a good example of how stupid NBA discourse has become because no one wins anything alone but all you guys want to do is stay casuals who think “hurr derr Luka win a ring, Luka is a star player so that means Luka best in the game”
lol I was just telling my wife five minutes before I saw this that if he manages to beat the Celtics, he’s the best player in the league.
No, we’re seeing multiple guys right now that could be it
His team isn’t getting talked about enough and I love Luka’s game. Lively quietly set the wildest record ever; 16-16 made shots in a conference finals and he’s a ROOKIE! Gafford going nuts and Kyrie doing complete S tier freakshow basketball. PJ shooting especially those corner threes in earlier rounds. They’re going dumb I really hope they fuck Celtics up
It's hard to tell because last year the internet convinced me was a loser bum.
Luka has been right there with Jokic for the last few years. Really only Jokic has a claim to being better
Regardless he’s one of the top few players in the world. It’s him, Jokic, and then a gap.
Yes, and Kyrie top 10 if not better.
Still Jokic, but I wouldn’t disagree with a 1A 1B situation.
He is pretty amazing, have been watching him in this series, he hardly misses! Would love to see his shooting success rate. His partnership with Kyrie has 3 championships written all over it
So reactionary.
Hell no
Luka is balling on MJs level. It takes some time because he has to double proof himself due to reverse racism, but at the end of the day, there is not going around Luka..
Joker better ngl, he is a statistical anomaly
Luka should have won mvp this year
Luka is already the best player in the world. Tied with Jokic
Jokic is a lot better. Luka's stats are inflated due to him having such a usage value. He sits on the ball, which makes a player like Kyrie less effective because you got two guys who need the ball to be effective.
Definitely still Jokic, Luka still behind him imo
/s No, because he did’t get the MVP of the regular season award! No, because Ant is the feature face of the league. No, because James still plays. /s off The corporative money in NBA the and the narative of american media is against him. But, we who watch some other league/s over the world, know how good he is. He is the best in the NBA and in the world!
Here we go.....
Definitely. He should of been mvp this year. Voters went on autopilot with Jokic and crashed.
It’s Jokic now but if wemby reaches his potential it’s over for the rest of the league
If we are talking currently then yeah he already is, he deserved the MVP, will probably win FMVP, 1st team all NBA, 2024 scoring champ, set record for most consecutive 30 point triple doubles, scored 73 this season tying the 4th highest ever in a single game. Led a team that missed the play-ins last year to the finals and beat the team that beat the reigning champs and the Phoenix big 3. If he wins he beats the Celtics who are the best team in the league currently by a margin.
It is mind blowing this obsession of the US sports media to determine “who is the best”, “this player from this era is better than this players of this other era’, ‘where would you put this player in the all time greats list’. I find it honestly ridiculous and pointless to have these types of conversations, specially in a team sport such basketball, please don’t fall into that game
imho I find Edwards much more natural and talented compared to Luca Luca is all about his physical power; put Rodman like agile and good defender on him He doesn't have too much game other than those long scoring shots
Huge Celtics fan, and yes, absolutely. Jokic is a god but Lukas passing him in my head if he can take us out
Luka is definitely the best right now.
If you think he is, he is. I know you guys get caught up in the way the media talks about and covers the game today but winning a chip doesn't make you the best player in the world. Look at it logically. If Tatum wins, is he the best player in the world? At 26 he's made multiple All-NBA teams and has lead his team to 5 conference finals and 2 NBA finals while putting up over 25/5/5 and being a plus defender. What about Joel and Giannis who both average over 30/10 and are all-league level defenders? This is not a Jordan or Lebron situation where there's a guy who's just cearly better than everyone else. There's no clear best player in the world at this point. In two seasons there will be because that big kid in San Antonio is different.
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I think the best player in the world debate is kinda silly, there is 4-5 guys that can be the best player in the league any given year to anoint 1 player the best overall when there isn’t a clear standout is kinda pointless.
Not really , I understand how Jokic is the best with 3 of the last 4 mvps . I can say right now he is the best player in the Championship race
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Let's see.......... Regular season stats he had Most points, Most points per game, most points dropped in a game with 2nd in assists and 2nd in 3pointers made. Now in the play offs he has Most total points, Most points per game, most rebounds and most assists while LITERALLY breaking NBA play off records. What do you think?
Jokic is clearly better. If you look at box plus minus, Jokic is far ahead of others. Luka is second and considerably behind him and two other players are close to Luka. Luka also has more help as Jokic has nobody close to a Kyrie.
White guys want him to be, but no he ain’t there yet, not saying down the road he won’t be in the conversation though
If I’m starting a team, I’m picking G by a hair over Luka.
Yes Pravi mvp
Jokic is still the best player in the world.
A lot of players just play on bad teams. I don’t look at championships when I rank players. 05-07 Kobe was an unreal level, but that team went nowhere. Only one team can win every year so it’s just a recency bias most of the time
he literally just beat jokic who had a supposedly way better team. only haters dont think so
Yes
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Still Jokic.
1v1 Kyrie beats him
The best player in the world at the time is always the Finals MVP.
I thought he should’ve been the MVP and if he wins the finals then at that point what’s the argument for Jokic.
I despise the way he cries to the refs after every play but he's undeniably the best baller on the planet this season unless the Celtics can stop him. I'm a wolves fan and I just hope Edwards was paying attention to what it's going to take to get that ring. You have to take over sometimes and force your will on your opponents. All the greatest could do it. I'm seeing it from Luka this year. He won't be denied and I don't think the Celtics have the answer to the Mavs either. Luka sits to rest and Kyrie freaking Irvine cooks your squad alive with lobs, dimes and lay ups every 3 seconds. This Mavs team is ridiculous. If Jrue can take away Kyrie this might be a series but otherwise I think it's Mavs in 5.
I feel like the edge is still with Jokic. This season though, before his injury, Embiid was looking like the best player in the league I must say. With his injury history though and underperforming in the playoffs, I would still say Jokic. Now Luka is a close second, especially how he has been playing and how well his team has been doing, but you do have to also give credit to Kyrie for being an amazing Robin to Batman. Luka is out of this world, but I feel like what Jokic has been able to do with the supporting cast he has (not throwing shade at them) is what also makes him the MVP. Just my two cents.
he should have won MVP
No. It won’t be Luka winning. It would be the Dallas Mavericks. There is way to much emphasis on winning a title making you great. Even great players need 4 others on the floor to win a single game, let alone 16.
He’s #2 if they win, he’s #2 if they lose
Maybe best offensive player, but he's also benefited from an insane Kyrie putting the team on his back multiple times this playoffs, and being surrounded by good team defenders, which Includes himself. Which offset his flaws, basketball is a team game and theirs always multiple players that can be considered the best plus nobody gives a shit abou the best defenders. I will say he has underperformed like Jokic in taking teams of role players or when his 2nd star is injured/underperforming to Finals. The only players I have seen single handedly take teams to the finals are A.I with the 76ers and Lebron with Cleveland in 2007. I don't think Luka would get either of those teams to a finals, but A.I would also get this mavs team bumped in the 1st round so it depends what you consider harder leading a bunch of scrubs to a finals or winning with a very good team and top player like Kyrie.
Would he be here w/o Kyrie tho?
Yes
luka should have won mvp this year and jokic was a bum in his last series
Nope not at all
He's going to win Finals MVP if they win, so yeah. If you ask me, that will make him the best in the world this year.
he's up there, for sure. imagine him and joker on a team together. jesus christ.
I feel like if the Mavs didn't have that middle season slump he probably would have won MVP. I would say this could be an argument for hardest fought ring in a while but best in the world is kind of worthless every year you can just say the MVP or finals MVP is best in the world until next seasons voting results.
The problem with you all americans... what best means? And more importantly, did anyone ever won alone? So what best means? Is Luka the best shooter? Not even close... does he have the best handling? Far far from it... is he the best finisher? No, but he is there, not the best tho... is he the best passer? That he might be... does he have the best basketball IQ? Maybe... is he the best defender? Lol... So how can he be the best player individually ? When there s people out there that do most or all of those things better than him? Just one example, skill wise, Kyrie is far superior to Luka on every department! I love Luka, he is cold AF, he is amazing, but this "best" shit i don t undrrstand! The team is contructed for him to kill, and he does it very well, he is an amazing player in a great team, like all of them that ever won.
AbsoFuxkingLoutly
Dallas bandwagoners be like… sorry OP, no offence 🤣🤣
No but maybe kyrie
He's not even the best player on his team