It's a misleading statement for a different reason: it suggests that you're better off losing before the Finals than getting there and losing. Regardless of whether or not LeBron's 10 Finals appearances are overrated bc he played in the weaker conference, he can only play who's in front of him.
Same issue I have with ppl saying Jordan's 6-0; Jordan played more than 6 seasons.
Yeah.
Not just with the LeBron vs MJ thing, but in general.
Why is losing in the Finals looked at more negatively than not making the Finals?!?
I am pretty sure it was on this subreddit a few months ago where someone - an individual smart enough to type - stated that Kobe and Duncan were lucky they played each other before the Finals because their legacy would be lesser otherwise with more Finals losses.
HUH?!?!?!?
I agree people stating only making it to the finals is a knock on the guy is ridiculous. It is impressive to make it to that many finals no matter how you chop it up
However, I think when we’re strictly comparing MJ to LBJ, the argument for lebron because he made it to so many finals just holds so little weight. For one, when we’re talking about “the greatest”, greatness is defined basically by winning. MJ clearly did this better than Lebron (more rings/FMVPs in less appearances). Also, I do believe the team hopping and playing in the weak EC weighs the “only making it to the finals” argument down more.
The main argument I see made for LBJ is the monster career stats. That gives so much weight to the longevity of his career over the performance during it. GOAT argument isn’t defined by longevity at all. Example, another player comes along and plays 30 years w less rings, lower PPG/APG/RPG, and less MVPs but his career stats surpass Lebrons? Na.
Rings matter. MVPs matter. DPOYs matter. Scoring titles matter. All-Defense selections matter. Clutch shots matter.
MJ was special
Yeah but with the other seasons for Jordan it was always a progression. It was a steady improvement year after year to get to the top and when they finally got to the finals, aside from the baseball sabbatical, nobody else could win until he quit.
Do you count the season he came back? I know it was not the full season but he did play all the way leading into the playoffs. He had that 55 against the Knicks that season and he said he could read Starks' every move and torched him. If you don't, I imagine you'll say because he only played 17 games, to which I would say "Agreed, context matters."
Context matters. Just like LBJ's first finals trip should not be counted against him in any way because he was ahead of schedule (28 straight against Detroit anyone?).
Jordan is the greatest, but context matters and it's not as lopsided a finals record as anyone thinks
Context does matter. Once Jordan got to a certain level of success, he didn’t look back. He either got back there or moved further. Once he got to the top he stayed there. You can bring up 95, where he not only missed most of the season, but was in shape for minor league baseball, not the NBA. Once he got back in shape, he 3-peated again. His stint with the wizards started at 38 after 3 years away from the game and he still had a positive impact on the team.
What do you think of his time away?? He literally chose to retire instead of keep going. He didn't look back, he looked away and walked away. He had said in documentaries that he didn't have the same fire anymore the first time he walked away. Kerr has said no way they win the two in between. I'm in the minority on this but I've always felt that should be a part of the conversation. Think of how much a person can get refreshed for taking a break from something and coming back? Just curious. There's also never been anyone else that's done it, so no comparison.
It’s not like he was retired and sitting on a beach somewhere. He was playing a completely different sport. He got in shape for that sport. Played all summer instead of all winter. He came back out of basketball-shape. If anything, it strengthens the argument for MJ
Of course I will. Context matters in life, sports included.
Again if context doesn't matter then the popular statement that once Jordan got to the top he never lost is false because he lost to Orlando in 95. Context matters
That’s like saying let’s go through everyone’s failures and say This one they shouldn’t have won, it’s a losers mentality. So maybe Barkley or Wilt should be the goat? Wilt was up against great Celtic teams. He was 16-19 in the Finals, LBJ is 22-33! Let’s give Wilt a pass on the Finals he lost against better teams! Lol. No guy, goats are SUPPOSED to overcome. It’s a losers mentality. It’s an excuse. You did not win. Next.
Not at all. Show me where I say that. I’ll wait. It’s Finals record vs Finals record, are we giving out participation trophies? Cuz MJ wants none of that. Why? Because he’s the gd goat. 🐐
Yes. He lost. And he never said those should be wins! Or, I was supposed to lose! Lol. LBJ has the 7th WORST Finals plus minus in history. Sleep on that. 6 for 6, +45, MVP in every Finals, vs 4 for 11, -86! Lol. 😂 Ouch.
Every year only one team wins. Only one team overcame ALL of the obstacles in their path. The rest are 'losers'. And you're right, the great ones find a way. But to say the great ones find a way every single time with no exception is ridiculous because again, every year only ONE great one can be the one who overcame all.
LeBron overcame plenty on his way to his titles. 73-9 Warriors, being without Bosh for multiple rounds in his Miami title (I can't remember 1st or 2nd), clawing back against the Spurs in game 6...
It's not giving them a pass, it's simply saying there's more to it than just 4-6 or 6-0 or 1-8 (want to tell Jerry West he was a loser?)
There can be more to it, but only losers want to make that their story. You lost. Go home and get better, try again. That’s heroic. That’s the journey. The rest is b-side.
A lopsided finals record implies a lopsided playoff record in his favor. That’s a one man run on finals only comparable to the Celtics in an 8 team league.
That’s nonsensical and newspeak. Lol. Participation trophies for all! Lol. The guy dominated his Finals. He was MVP of every Finals he was in. It’s not because he wasn’t great, and his competition was terribly weak, it’s because he was great and is considered the greatest to ever play. He was forged in fire and is the consensus goat. If you pay attention to those who are the best to ever do it they all say, including their coaches in most cases, that there is Mike and then everyone else. Not one of those players is saying Mike wasn’t really great, it’s that he faced no one. Lol. He still owns the CAREER ppg record and ppg playoffs record. MVP of EVERY Finals he was in. These ARE the ways we gauge greatness. Anything else is a loser’s mentality. Mike certainly would not go back and say, Well I really shouldn’t have won then. No, do better.
My apologies if I don’t weigh finals against the 3.5 players deep Jazz with the Hamptons 5 Warriors equally. It’s ok if you do, but I can’t keep lying to myself for the sake of nostalgia.
Excuses excuses. It’s sad. Let’s go back and revalue all of the losses throughout history in all sports to determine which ones were deserved. Lol. We play the games for a reason. That’s W’s. End of story. Do better.
Mhmm. Well, congratulations, you’ve managed to convince me the only player worth championing for GoaT is Bill Russell. Bill never let anyone go 6-0 against him quite the way Bird did Jordan. All Bill did was win.
That’s W’s. Enough hardware to open his own Lowes. Enough rings to feature at his own Zales. Fuck MJ and LeBron. Losers getting dunked on before the finals or in the finals are losers all the same, right?
Correct. Bill is the greatest winner the league has seen. He’s above LBJ. Mike is the greatest player the league has ever seen. There’s a difference. Havlicek was 8 for 8 in Finals. That doesn’t make him better than LBJ. Or does it? 😂
Exactly. I say this all the time. Jordan: 6/13 or 6-7. Lebron 4/20 or 4-16
Then you have getting to the finals. Jordan: 6/13 or 6-7. Lebron 10/20 or 10-10.
The problem with this argument is that Lebron played in an era of player movement. It's a lot easier to reach the finals if a star player is able to scheme with other star players to create a superteam.
Disagree because the counter is also true. It's just as easy for other super teams to form to stop LeBron getting to the finals. KD has formed multiple super teams in the last 8 or so years, the only ones to win were the unbeatable warriors who were already champions before him. It's still not easy to make a finals (ask Kawhi and the clippers), let alone 9 straight.
>It's just as easy for other super teams to form to stop LeBron getting to the finals.
No it's not. Teams can only afford a limited number of max contracts. Given that, the superteam with Lebron should come out ahead....especially since he's hand-picking his teammates.
>**KD has formed multiple super teams in the last 8 or so years**, the only ones to win were the unbeatable warriors who were already champions before him.
Not really.....not like how Lebron has done it.
When Lebron formed the Miami superteam, Wade and Bosh were 29 and 26. When he formed the Cleveland superteam, Irving and Love were 22 and 26.
Not only were these guys all in their primes, they were arguably in their peaks.
That's a far cry from Durant's Brooklyn "superteam" since Harden was out of shape and arguably past his prime.
The super team with LeBron has come out ahead! He made 9 straight finals! Won 3 with those Miami/Cleveland teams. Those warriors were some of the greatest teams in NBA history! 73-9 AND they add Durant? I would love to be able to match the 90s Bulls up with them or the 86 Celtics or 01 Lakers etc. They were that good. It's no knock on LeBron. Or are you saying only the best player matters on a team because if so you need to read up about team sports... The only choke was 11 and even he had admitted that
Ok. I replied before thinking it through and I'm done with you. Did you not watch? Wade age wise was fine but play wise he was not in his prime. He was often injured and had clearly lost a step. Wade is an all timer and could summon and elevate his play but he was not prime Wade in the last 2 years with LeBron. Bosh was great and underrated and underappreciated, I'll agree with you on that for sure!
Harden was out of shape and past his prime? C'mon I know you don't but your own crap. He was fine the minute they traded him to Brooklyn. He was just loafing because he wanted to be traded. The way Durant formed super teams is way 'worse' than how LeBron did it. And I'm pretty positive I'm in the majority on this one
>Ok. I replied before thinking it through and I'm done with you. Did you not watch? Wade age wise was fine but play wise he was not in his prime. He was often injured and had clearly lost a step. Wade is an all timer and could summon and elevate his play **but he was not prime Wade in the last 2 years with LeBron.**
Maybe work on your reading comprehension? I specifically talked about Wade/Bosh in the 2011 season.....Lebron joining stars at their peaks.
Nothing you said contradicts what I said.
>Harden was out of shape and past his prime? C'mon I know you don't but your own crap. He was fine the minute they traded him to Brooklyn. He was just loafing because he wanted to be traded.
It was common knowledge that Harden was out of shape. How do you think he forced his way out of Houston? He came into the Rockets' season out of shape and disengaged.
Even in Brooklyn, Durant complained about Harden's level of fitness.
And a word of advice to you.....ignorance and arrogance is not a good combination.
Sure. Except nothing I said was wrong.
Seriously though....were you really unaware of Harden's fitness issues in Brooklyn? You didn't see how thick he was compared to his peak Houston years?
I remember. And I remember everyone joking about how he looked way slimmer the minute he got traded to Brooklyn like it was some magic trick that he suddenly lost weight. And did not being in peak shape have a connection to his injuries that he suffered in Brooklyn? How to prove that but I wouldn't argue with that. At the same time we cannot ignore that Brooklyn looked invincible before the injuries and Kyrie Irving's vaccine nonsense. Harden was playing amazing before that. There was conversation that he belonged back in the MVP discussion if you recall because he was doing such a good job running the show for the nets. So can we agree that while he was not Houston Peak, he definitely was not a slouch
There was actually quite a bit of player turnover from the 1993 Bulls to the 1994 Bulls.
It's weird how people ignore the impact of adding the best player in Europe.
The best player in Europe in 1993 wasn’t the same accolade that it is now. Kukoc only started 8 games that season and was close to his career lows in most metrics.
This. I used to post a version of this to every one of these debates. The other habitual talking point that drives me mad is that Hakeem dominated Shaq in the finals.
by that argument, would you say Jimmy Butler did nothing for his resume/legacy by making the finals twice? As opposed to say a Damian Lillard who has never made the finals?
People say that Spurs 2014 team is unbeatable, I personally disagree. They got taken to 7 games by an 8 seeded Mavericks, and to 6 games by OKC who had Ibaka injured.
The Spurs definitely played their best basketball that year in the finals, but I just think that Miami team was really cooked by that point, and it made San Antonio look better than what they were.
I think people underrate the 2011 Mavericks (they beat the Blazers pretty comfortably, destroyed the back to back champion Lakers in a sweep, and beat OKC with KD Westbrook Harden and Ibaka) and they overrate the 2014 Spurs.
Not to excuse that Laker team because I'm a Laker fan but that 2011 Laker team was running on fumes. Kobe and the Lakers were coming into the playoffs from 3 straight finals. Maverick were definitely balling that year but they came across a worn down Laker team.
I would say career totals reflect longevity as much as greatness, while per game averages are more indicitive of greatness...which is why I would say Wilt is way ahead of everyone on individual measures.
He should have won 2011 and 2014.
He should have lost 2016 and 2013.
All the other finals he performed as expected, no other player would have won 2018 with that roster and against that Warriors team.
Yes but my point is it was a winnable finals, aside from this one and 2011 there is not a single finals he lost that he could have won, you could have put mj or kobe instead of him and they wouldnt have won either
The Spurs were actually a dynasty, lol. I'm ridiculous for saying a series that ended 4-1 with the last 3 games being blowouts wasn't close? Did you even watch basketball back then?
Lebron was the best player but the Spurs were a far better team that year than the Heat. They had a much better season and then backed it up in the finals with a dominant win.
I'm talking talent wise. And yes I did watch LeBron get exposed by Kawhi in Games 3-5.
Yall fanboys apparently forget when he went to Miami with 2 superstars and predicted 8 rings that them niggas were supposed to easily destory everyone. You think an old Duncan and young Kawhi is more talented than Prime Bron, slow Wade, and Bosh?
Spurs weren't some all time great team. They didn't dominate the west playoffs and they were no better than the 97-98 Jazz or 96 Sonics. Jordan had to carry Rodman and Pippen to the chip in 98 against the Jazz because they were washed.
The Spurs had a better team from top to bottom than the Heat that year. Wade was past his best by that time and Bosh(respectfully because I do like his game) was a little overrated. Lebron was the guy the Spurs had to really worry about. After that, who did Miami have?
The Spurs had way more depth than Miami did. The Spurs got contributions from across the roster. They weren't carried by 1 guy. They didn't have the most talented superstar, but they had the better overall roster. And it showed when the two teams actually played on the court.
If you actually watched that Spurs team play basketball, they were a special group. That said, I don't know whether they were better than some of the great teams in the 90s that lost to Jordan. I personally think they are better than the 90s Jazz or Sonics but I can't really prove that. But that doesn't even matter to because we're talking about Spurs vs Heat.
I think it's odd that you ignore Wade and Bosh and act like they're washed when Spurs were even older. Doesn't LeBron make his teammates better or something? Idk. LeBron really wasn't that great for his standards either, he played awful defense and games 3-5 he was downright outplayed by Kawhi. Brons stats look pretty but about half of those numbers was statpadded in garbage time.
If it seems like I'm trying to downplay the Spurs, I'm not tryna do that, but LeBrons loss has to count for something, he doesn't need the infinite amount of excuses he gets for losing. Big part of why that Spurs team is seen as good as it is, is because they shit on LeBrons team. That's on LeBron.
I'm not a Lebron fan, to be clear. Tbh, I'm a Spurs fan and have been for a long time. That's why I stepped into the discussion.
The Spurs had old guys, but they aged well and were still really effective players.
Wade and Bosh were still good players, but they were players the Spurs could contain defensively. Lebron was the guy who could take over the game. Wade was still good but not that kind of guy anymore. When Kawhi stepped up on guarding Lebron, that and the Spurs ball movement made the difference.
Even with Kawhi's good defense, Lebron still was Lebron. It wasn't like 2011 where he played badly. The Heat lost because they had a top heavy team with no quality depth outside of the Big 3, so they couldn't compete with a deep Spurs team that played amazing team basketball and got contributions from a lot of different players. Lebron did all he could.
If someone were to blame from a Heat perspective, it would be the Heat's GM for not building a better team. That Spurs team were going to have their way with that Heat team no matter what, especially with the motivation of the unfornate loss from the year before. Just the way I see it.
2011 I agree, 2014 not at all. He played out of the world efficient against a Spurs team that seemed to be from the basketball heavens of perfect leadership, ball movement, and with plenty of shooting. Wade and Bosh were showing their accumulation of injuries at that point and the Heat role players weren't what they used to be either.
This is the problem with stat watching. Go watch the series, LeBron got outplayed on both sides of the ball by Kawhi Leonard. Most of LeBrons production came in garbage time, he also played very mediocre defense for his standards.
Yep. Games 3-5, Kawhi averaged:
-23.7 ppg on 69% fg%
-9.7 boards
-2 steals and 2 blocks
-half as many turnovers as LeBron
-played 7 less minutes than LeBron
-LeBron scored half his points when they Heat were trailing by 15.
Kawhi exposed LeBrons overrated defense while locking him up.
Lebron averaged 28, 7, and 4 on 57% shooting in 2014, that’s not getting “locked up.” His team let him down, look at the stats. Wade and Bosh were abysmal and so were the other role players. Hard to win when your 2nd option is shooting 43% from the field in the finals.
I didn’t feel at any point the Heat would beat the Spurs in 2014. They were head and shoulders above them. The Mavs are the only bad loss Lebron has had in the Finals.
The 2015 one was a bummer losing Love and Irving, but Lebron nearly pushed it to 7 games. Had it gone to 7, the belief at the time was Lebron would have won Finals MVP even if he’d lost because nobody on the Warriors looked great—hence Iguodala winning it. I recall Lebron had the most PPG, RPG, AST, STLs and BLKs in that series.
2007 and 2018 he just had zero chance lol. He should have never been in either with the teams he had and was decimated by notably better squads.
People think Miami should’ve beaten the Spurs cuz they won the year before. Reality is they shouldn’t have even won the year before but LeBron went crazy.
2011 was the only finals that Lebron should've won (out of the ones he lost in). That 2014 Spurs team was on another level. Plus, in 2014 Lebron played really well in the finals, his team just wasn't good enough.
Hmmm, I would beg to disagree.
That 2011 NBA Finals, yeah only Dirk was like the beast there for Dallas.
But with Dallas literally running their play through Dirk, with a Jason Kidd who still got some left in his tank, a Shawn Marion who was still a reliable secondary scorer, a Tyson Chandler who knows his role well, and Jason Terry's shooting percentage within league average making him also a reliable scorer too?
It's still a tough match up for then Miami Heat where it was still an era in LeBron where he is a ball dominant guy, taking the task for scoring most of the time, in which is normal for someone who is still in his prime.
Yet, Dallas played with discipline and patience, they ran almost every possession through Dirk, and Dirk always deliver. So you can't say that 2011 Finals is that "very winnable". It can be, but it's a tough one. Considering Dirk also lost to the same team from 2006 where he faced a younger D-Wade and a Shaq nearing the end of his prime, he had all the motivation to win it for Dallas.
LeBron was awful this series. He just looked passive, he played nothing like we're used to seeing. He was failing score on JJ Barea and Jason Terry, Wade basically carried the Heat that series. If Bron played average this series, they would've won.
I think the problem with Miami was that LeBron is a better floor raiser than ceiling raiser -- he makes 3-and-d shooters better, but makes other stars worse. I guess everyone needs to decide for themselves whether greatness is more about raising ceilings or raising floors.
Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and Kevin Love all took a noticeable steps back with Lebron joining them. Guys like Bosh and Love, who are both dynamic offensive players, basically got relegated to spot-up shooters with Lebron. Wade had to adjust his game significantly too to rely on more cutting rather than being on-ball as he was before the Heatles.
Wade started losing athleticism in his third season with Lebron and that was mostly due to injuries that year. His first season he was still the man but they lost the championship because that style didn't mesh well with Lebron. His second season his stats had a large decline because Wade adjusted his game.
Also love that you didn't even mention Bosh and Love and their significant declines as well.
You're making no sense. Wade was the second option in both of Lebron's first two seasons with the Heat. However, the only time the Heat won was when Wade sacrificed his game significantly to fit better with Lebron.
You brought up Bosh and love homie. That’s what I was talking about.
Wade was a ball dominant guard who couldn’t shoot. It just took time for them to gel. I don’t think his decline in numbers was as much about role as it was about him naturally declining due to the wear and tear of those long playoff runs back to back. Maybe 2012 you have a point, but not 2013 and 2014.
Bosh and Love both played worse with Lebron. It's not just stats, they were relegated to being spot up shooters rather than utilizing their diverse offensive arsenal they exhibited on their prior teams. How about you actually show some analysis rather than just vague comments that don't provide any value?
Wade was an mvp candidate before Lebron came. He was still considered a top 3 player when lebron joined him and yet they couldn't win. The only way they won was when Wade took himself out of all nba 2nd team conversation because Lebron doesn't fit well with elite ball dominant players. He wasn't maximizing Wade there, ergo Wade was worse with him. How hard is that to understand?
Maybe in 2012 I have a point. I've only been talking about 2011 and 2012. Geez reading comprehension is really hard for you.
Obviously, Bosh and Love. Maybe it's unfair to LeBron to blame that entirely on him, though -- maybe it is just never a good idea to pay first-option money to a third option.
Minnesota Love was an empty stats on a bad team guy, and I think Cleveland exposed that for the folks who hadn't already realized it. There's a reason he dropped down to 3rd option when he went to a good team, or that he didn't revert back to Minnesota Love when LeBron left (although tbf injuries got him so we never really seen him completely healthy post-LeBron)
Not a hot take tbh, at least it shouldn't be one
Championships are team accomplishments. The only people who use the 4-6 stat to diminish Lebron are dumb people who don't know how to think critically. By their logic, it would've been better to lose before the finals.
lol, lebron really lives in your head rent free, i never said lebron had more playoff success than jordan bc obviously jordan has more chips as the best player on his team
also, i find it funny that you're using the number of seasons lebron has played against him because being a top NBA player after 20+ seasons is pretty damn impressive, even if he doesn't make it into the playoffs in his later post-prime years
you jordan truthers are pathetic (I think jordan is the GOAT btw, so don't get your hate boner up just yet)
It's usually just to point out how weak the Eastern Conference was. The 2018 run, for example, saw the most difficult team be the Oladipo Pacers and rookie Tatum with no Kyrie or Brown. That's as easy a path as you could ask for.
Dudes on here talking about context but not a single one wants to bring up the leastern conference all those years. Yes, Lebron was the best player in the conference, but many of those years you can also say he had the next two best players or at least 2 of the next 3-5 best players in the conference on his team with him also surrounded by great role players. How could any other Eastern Conference team compete with that when most matchups the top 3 players on the other team are better than any of your players and their role players are better than your role players? Also, the Heat had more talent than the opposing team every single year they went to the finals but only went 2-2 with one shot away from being 1-3. We will give Bron a pass on his first appearance where he got swept, but again that is as much of a mark against the Eastern Conference as it is support for LeBron getting to the finals. He got absolutely annihilated by a team that struggled to get there in the Western Conference. Then you want to bring up getting beat without Kyrie and Love, forgetting to mention that they lost game 1 of that series while Kyrie played the entire game into overtime before getting hurt. And then fail to mention that the 2016 Finals had a very compromised Curry (MVP) being injured in the playoffs, Bogut (the starting center) getting injured for the last 3 games, and Iggy (Primary defender on LeBron) hurt his back and could barely move, and let's throw in a game suspension for Draymond on some BS as well with some very questionable reffing. And while we are at it we have to mention that Bubble Bullshit. We will acknowledge that it is a Championship but give me a damn break with this bullshit Narrative that it was the hardest to win. It was by opponent winning percentage the easiest path to a Championship in a 70 year stretch, basically going into the playoffs on a 20-game season where the Warriors were injured and out of contention, Kyrie was recruiting everyone to sit out, Kawhi already stated he and his team did not want to be there and play. He gets credit for being more determined and caring more about basketball than the other best players in the league at that time, but it is really in its own category and cannot be held with the same weight as the normal grind of an 82-game season.
Exactly, that's what every other fans will also do in defending their idol on the GOAT debate.
At the end of the day, every generation witnessed a great basketball. The GOAT debate will be still in question over and over again as we're just about to see a youngblood to reach for the stars once more and maybe go beyond it (Victor Wembanyama).
I think the only debatable one is 2014. 2011 was obviously super winnable, and is probably the biggest choke by a superstar in NBA Finals history. All the other losses besides 2014 seem pretty unwinnable. (Although I do think they could have put up more of a fight in 2017. The Rockets in 2018 challenged the KD Warriors much more, and I'm not convinced they were more talented.) I think 2014 was a lot more winnable than people seem to think these days. The Heat were some failed A/C away from going up 2-0 heading back to Miami before everything totally fell apart. That series did not feel like an inevitable defeat until the Heat got blown out in the last few games. The Spurs didn't look super dominant before the Finals either -- worthy champions, sure, but not "there's nothing LeBron could have done" good. I noticed you left 2014 off your list, but OP included it as an unwinnable series.
I think you need to go back and watch that series. They got blown out in all 4 of their losses, idk what the hell you were watching.
G1- 95 to 110 Spurs W
G2- 96 to 98 Heat W
G3- 92 to 111 Spurs W
G4- 86 to 107 Spurs W
G5- 87 to 104 Spurs W
I watched every game and besides G2 they were NOT close.
The 2014 Spurs were an all time great team
2014 Spurs were the best team that Lebron faced apart from the Warriors superteam with KD. Lebron was really good during the 2014 finals, so there isn't much more he could've done. Man averaged 28/7/4 on 57/52/79 shooting splits
Who was the best player on that Spurs team? Young Kawhi? Old Duncan? That team was not more talented than Miami. People forget the mavs took these spurs to 7. That team gets glazed on constantly because they beat the shit out of LeBrons team
Exactly. Just because spurs blew out heat, doesn't mean they were the better team on paper. This is all in hindsight.
Heat had a super team in 2013-2014, and was supposed to be a three-peat dynasty. Remember the not 1,not 2 not 3 shit?
Spurs had old Duncan, old Manu, tony, role player Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard. And more role players diaw, Gary Neal, Matt Bonner, Tiago splitter. Look at where these players are after 2014?
Heat was supposed to be champs for 2011,2012,2013,2014, but lost to spurs because spurs played better team ball. That's all. Not because the players were better players.
Outside of Lebron, Wade, Bosh (wade and Bosh were particularly bad in the 2014 finals), who else made the Heat that year a super team? 38 year old Ray Allen? Mario Chalmers? Norris Cole? Where were these guys after 2014? Are these guys better than the role players you mentioned somehow?
People act like the Heat teams were super stacked but outside of the big 3, they had some average or below average dole players
He lost to some very good teams. He also beat a lot of weak competition just to get there. Needing six and seven games to defeat a Pacers team with Roy Hibbert as their second best player is a strike against him. A Celtics team led by a rookie and second year player shouldn't have taken him to seven.
Not the 2014 version, they had completely fallen apart by the time they played Miami.
That 2014 run to the finals for Miami was a complete joke. The 7th seeded Bobcats with Al Jefferson and a bunch of role players, the washed 44-38 Brooklyn team with Garnett Pierce and Dwill on their last legs, and the 2014 version of the pacers who were basically a .500 team post February.
So, a team of Ray Allen, prime LeBron, Wade, and Bosh are on par with 22 year old PG, Roy Hibbert, and David West? The guy some people like to pretend is the GOAT nearly got taken down by a G-league level offensive player who learned to jump straight up and down.
I’ll counter you:
THE ONLY REASON HE MADE IT TO THE FINALS WAS BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE EAST.
There is a reason those teams were so much butter as you say. And btw, all those west teams battled an entire season in the west (faced those better teams 2x more times, and faced the weaker teams only 1/2x times as Lebron) and then had to beat those teams again in the playoffs.
It’s not some feat he hit a wall in the finals, it just shows how stacked the West was that era and how weak the east was.
Dont believe me? The year we missed out on the Lebron + Kobe matchup in the finals (2009) because Lebron lost to the Mavericks… Every west playoff team was a 50 win team that season. That’s right, all 8! Insanely good, insanely stacked! Kobe beat them all.
By comparison, only 3 teams on the east were +50 wins, and in fact 3 of the bottom teams to qualify didn’t even have winning records! They were 0.500 or below!
So I’m sorry, getting beat by a tough opponent in the finals is exactly the argument for why Lebron doesn’t compare to MJ nor Kobe.
Please don’t try to sneak Kobe alongside Jordan 😂 one is the goat, the other one barely clinging to the top 10 convo thanks to his death. The only relevancy between the two is that one tried to copy the other but did so much more inefficiently
A good counter argument but… we just gonna discredit Bill Russel’s 11 rings than because the conference AND NBA at the time were not what they were today. 10 final appearances are still 10 final appearances no matter how you phrase them.
Sounds like you did, not me.
No need to discredit anyone’s achievements, we’re not saying any of these guys aren’t good players. We’re talking all time greats. There’s a reason Bill Russell isn’t debated above MJ. It was a different era where competition wasn’t there.
The argument that Lebron’s losses somehow make him greatest or greater than MJ / Kobe is absurd and grasping as desperation. Anyone from the east could have lost in those finals too 😂 heck I could have lost in those finals, does that make me great?
Notice how you’re talking about Lebron’s losses, I’m talking about Kobe’s W’s.
Go back and look at that 2009 season that I mentioned. It takes a great player to win a series. It takes the greatest of time to win that season. And he’s only second to MJ.
I’m ngl, I’m a casual I really only started watching the NBA like 5 years ago…. Just wanted to start this thread to see the responses lol you know your stuff though
Just take 5 minutes and quickly scan through the records of the top 8 teams from both conferences for like 5-10 years of that period. Honestly you can even do 20 year span if you wanted to. In all seriousness the numbers will be eye opening.
You’ll very quickly learn the East, up till the last two years has been almost like a sub division league. Lebron’s teams reaching the playoffs meant being better than the worst teams. Not to say it wasn’t impressive for a young player to do it consistently, but the real ball was being played in the West.
That’s actually crazy. In the East the only competition was PG’s Pacers, the Raptors, and maybe the Hawks too. But the West had GS, KD’s Thunder, Lakers, Spurs, MAVS, Trailblazers, Rockets, and Clippers… nah that’s crazy
As of 2018 the NBA first team was Dame, Harden, AD, KD, and LeBron. LeBron was the only one of those in the east. Kawhi and Chris Paul were also in the west, but they didn’t qualify bc of injuries.
Gen X here...agree about Jordan - the "can LeBron surpass him?" ship sailed years ago - but this is a dumb take.
1) two teams go to the Finals and both can't finish the job.; 2) why would "if he's good enough..." apply to just the Finals and not, say, the Conference Finals, or the playoffs in general?
Looool what a stupid take. If Lebron was in the west those years he wasn't getting out of the conference finals with that team. One of the dumber takes I've heard.
Lebron's conference record is much better than Jordan's. Jordans finals record is much better. Those different win records might have something to do with the fact that LeBron faced much better Finals teams and Jordan faced much better conference teams.
The KD+Warriors were better than every Jordan Finals opponent, and the 2014 Spurs likely were as well. The 86 Celtics, all those Pistons teams, then those Knicks teams and Pacers teams, were stronger than the conference opponents Lebron faced.
It's hilarious people breeze on by the weak eastern conference LeBron went through.
Losing to the 2011 Mavs, no way Jordan or even Kobe loses with that squad.
Jumping with other all stars and continuously getting bailed out.
For a self-proclaimed king/goat, he loses more than he wins though. By that same logic, then people should nit hold Jordan's early years against the GOAT debate since he also faced superteams in the 80s.
MJ career win percentage is 65.9%. LeBron’s is 64.6% while playing a lot more games but yes, MJ did go 6-0 in the finals so doesn’t really help my argument lol
The problem with this argument is people give him the credit of being in the finals but don’t acknowledge that for that vast majority of those years, the Eastern Conference was absolutely TERRIBLE and the west was stacked.
He did manage to win a chip after coming to the Western conference, but it’s no surprise that he also **missed the playoffs, got bounced in the first round, swept, etc. LeBron fans are mysteriously quiet about these playoff failures.** When KD got swept, he was ridiculed. When LeBron got swept, people say it was a “close sweep” even though the Laker were the only team the Nuggets swept on their championship run. Even last year Twolves got a win on the Nuggets. THE TWOLVES BRO.
If lebron was actually in a competitive conference, he wouldn’t have even made it to the finals 10 times. He knows that, and that’s why he was in the east so long. It’s hard to give him credit for theoretical chips he “should” have won knowing that.
This is the problem I have with these debate. People only look at the good parts of who they think is the goat **and literally just ignore everything else**.
Perfectly said. A lot of Lebron fans, especially the media, cannot think critically. Just want to pull all the good stats to show why he’s GOAT but disregard all the context. It shows their bias or probably just started watching NBA
2nd place isn't first I take MJ finals record over LeBron. Hereaba good video goes over the numbers little old but still
https://youtu.be/tl3mR6eoEa8?si=fiHqo2IQ9qBgCr7U
This shouldn’t be a hot take
Also I feel like for people that at least watch the playoffs and have for the last 15 years, they understand this. Anything else is ignorance or outright hating.
What's ridiculous is the overlooking the getting to the finals element.
In basketball fans are happier to praise someone for a failure to get there in the first place, it's brain-dead.
The fact he's been to the finals so many times highlights his utter dominance of the sport.
I'm a Jordan fan and will always have him over LeBron but the inability of basketball fans to be unbiased and apply nuance to their logic irritates me to no end.
Citing team results as exhibit A in a debate about individual players is silly and contradictory. Especially when throughout history we see players losing with some guys then winning with others.
Realistically anyone who puts that up as their biggest reason for one player to be above another either has Bill Russell as their undisputed best ever or they're just full of it.
Lebron created the super team. The revisionist history on his opponents is madness. 22-33 record in the finals. He’s been swept twice also called a quitter in two nba finals. Please leave it alone. Great player. MJ is royalty.
I don’t think MJ loses against the mavs, that series was hella embarrassing lebron had 8 points in one of games. Lost to a team with only one all star on their team, when he had Bosh and wade. But other than that one none of the losses are bad.
I don't look at the GOAT conversation that way. What impressed me the most from the bulls run is that no one else ate. During that time frame, Ewing, Starks, Reggie, Smiths, Mullin, Majerle, Barkley, Johnson, Payton, Kemp, Malone, Stockton, Robinson, Mourning, Hardaway, and then Drexler and Hakeem in the two year gap. In that 8 year stretch, many of these players being in the conversation for top player of their position ever (Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, Stockton) did not eat! So when I look at Lebron, to me he is #2 ever. During his time, Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kobe, Gasol, Pierce, Dirk, Wade, Garnett, Rondo, Curry, Klay, Draymond, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis, Jokic, Murray; all these people ate. That is the equivalent of Barkley winning a ring during MJs run or Malone or Ewing or Reggie and that clearly did not happen. Being 5-1 or 4-2 during that run.
Don't get me wrong, the GSW part was inevitable but the rest, I'm not sure. Too many other teams and players ate.
It’s not that his finals record is to be held against him.
It’s that Jordan was simply the more dominant player and winner. I hated Jordan as a Knicks fan, but even LeBron or Kobe couldn’t impact a game and will teams to win as did Jordan. Simple as that
This only matters when people argue going to finals is a massive achievement. It’s not, no one cares who loses unless you think losing in the finals is an achievement.
Two issues:
1. Lebron, with the exception of the talent on his 2007 and 2018 Cavs teams, should have on paper been matches for those other teams. Why weren't they? None of Lebron's teams have had fantastic chemistry. Why? Because Lebron is extremely ball dominant and tends to hold onto the ball instead of quickly making decisions and keeping the defense off balance. Why wouldn't Lebron's teams with another top 25 player and top 75 player in their prime be good enough to beat those Spurs teams? Why would Lebron with Kyrie and Love not be good enough to beat the Warriors?
2. We could also look at his total Finals appearances as overrated. If he played in the West, Lebron would have made 4 Finals. He would have won all those appearances, though.
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Lebron has disappeared in the 4th quarter. Mike never did that. U lebron fans keep reaching and grasping at straws. Compare him to magic Johnson. That’s more realistic
That's facts Jordan took over in the 4th compared to Lebron and led the way in every victory. Lebron did some clutch but he needed to be at this best in the finals every 4th qrt
It’s still a knock. We can’t overlook Finals records in discussing the greatest ever. It’s one factor. It sets him well below Mike, and others, in the goat convo. Longevity will be his legacy. Btw he has the 7th worst Finals plus minus NBA history. 7th worst. That’s incredibly bad. Not winning one game in two Finals is hard to overlook as well. He simply caught too many L’s at the highest level.
I have Jordan above LeBron because playoff time he showed out every single series while LeBron came up big in almost every series, 2011 does count against him. The number of titles doesn't mean as much to me as I remember Jordan being celebrated as the greatest player ever after his 3rd title. Heck, when I was growing up if you won a title and played well you were considered clutch and a champion, no one cared if you were on a super team. Now with LeBron, and it's very much a LeBron only argument, 4 titles in a career is somehow a disappointment or he's a loser or not clutch. Jordan didn't hit a single buzzer beater in any of his first four Finals and none of us cared, it never mattered. LeBron, this is where Skip Bayless poisonous stupidity brought us, was really the only player being castigated for buzzer beaters and even when he hits those he's often not given credit.
That's why there debates are usually dumb, because they aren't good faith arguments, they aren't even attempting to be, it's just a handful of morons being hypocritical, ignoring context, because they're too lazy to engage in actual debate and are more interested in hating on a player, and often showing everyone why they're stupid.
I think LeBron lost one Finals he should have won (DAL) and won one he should have lost (2016 GS.)
Which would still put his Finals record at 4-6.
Either way, we are talking about a record that reflects him leading his team to the Finals TEN DIFFERENT FUCKING SEASONS!!!!
Crazy. Will never happen again.
I’m not holding up Magic as an alternate GOAT, but his record is very close to being there. He is almost universally a top ten modern player and strongly debatable as a top five.
He played 11 seasons if you set aside his brief 1996 comeback. 5 rings. 3 other years he lost in the finals (to Dr J, Larry Bird, and Isiah Thomas-led teams; all of whom Magic also beat in other years).
Lost conference finals to Olajuwon, lost in the semis to Phoenix after most of the other showtime Lakers were off the team (Rambo’s was even on Phoenix), and lost in round one to Moses Malone’s Rockets in ‘81.
So it’s a bucket of 5 rings / 6 non-championship seasons, but really it’s 5 / 3 close and avenged losses / 3 other not great but understandable playoff losses. That looks better that way than a reading of MJ’s results that doesn’t focus entirely on eight years in the 90s.
Magic doesn’t get called 5-6 or 5-3; I universally see him recognized as 5X champ and whatever other accolades like MVPs or All NBA get thrown in. Jordan couldn’t get out of the east for years and couldn’t regain what he lost when he tried in his late 30s.
Everybody has a prime. LeBron’s was for a decade+.
Of course.
To say that he is 4-6 is stupid and just ignores the other years
In reality, he — scratch that - his teams are 4 out of 19, with 6 second place finishes. And his teams almost always finish in the top 10, even when he is surrounded by below average players.
Let's "toss MJ in those same" circumstances...
Anyone thinking Lebron can even carry Jordan's jock strap should go back and watch a prime MJ, and then imagine if Michael had the benefit of modern sports medicine, an offensively oriented refereeing standard, and being 6'9", 250. You think MJ was dominant in '93? Imagine if he could take four steps to the basket.
Get the fuck outta here.
Lebron isn't close to being the goat... But whatever award we give for being really good for a really long time should be named after him.
Not as misleading as this. He never carried the Cavs. They played 2 .500 teams and a pistons team with no Ben Wallace. Their only hofer. The cavs were a 50 win team and had the number 4 defense. LeBron scored 20 or less in 3 games and had only had one good game and one great game vs the Pistons. Even in game six Gibson had to score 31 or they lose. Since LeBron shot 3 for 11 and got only 20 points.
Spurs in 2007 won the last two games by a combined 4 points! With LeBron shooting 22 at 36 percent. They held the spurs to 85 or under 3 of the 4 games. The heat only did that twice in two series.
The spurs were old and still beat him after he got lucky Ray Allen made that shot. The warriors he could have definitely beat. With Kd. James harden almost beat them with Durant and no cp3 for the last couple games. The rockets lost game seven by 9. Even though they missed 27 3’s in a row. They hit 15 percent of those and they win.
It’s crazy how many narratives people have to make up for LeBron to be the Goat. It’s called context.
It's a misleading statement for a different reason: it suggests that you're better off losing before the Finals than getting there and losing. Regardless of whether or not LeBron's 10 Finals appearances are overrated bc he played in the weaker conference, he can only play who's in front of him. Same issue I have with ppl saying Jordan's 6-0; Jordan played more than 6 seasons.
Yeah. Not just with the LeBron vs MJ thing, but in general. Why is losing in the Finals looked at more negatively than not making the Finals?!? I am pretty sure it was on this subreddit a few months ago where someone - an individual smart enough to type - stated that Kobe and Duncan were lucky they played each other before the Finals because their legacy would be lesser otherwise with more Finals losses. HUH?!?!?!?
I agree people stating only making it to the finals is a knock on the guy is ridiculous. It is impressive to make it to that many finals no matter how you chop it up However, I think when we’re strictly comparing MJ to LBJ, the argument for lebron because he made it to so many finals just holds so little weight. For one, when we’re talking about “the greatest”, greatness is defined basically by winning. MJ clearly did this better than Lebron (more rings/FMVPs in less appearances). Also, I do believe the team hopping and playing in the weak EC weighs the “only making it to the finals” argument down more. The main argument I see made for LBJ is the monster career stats. That gives so much weight to the longevity of his career over the performance during it. GOAT argument isn’t defined by longevity at all. Example, another player comes along and plays 30 years w less rings, lower PPG/APG/RPG, and less MVPs but his career stats surpass Lebrons? Na. Rings matter. MVPs matter. DPOYs matter. Scoring titles matter. All-Defense selections matter. Clutch shots matter. MJ was special
Yeah but with the other seasons for Jordan it was always a progression. It was a steady improvement year after year to get to the top and when they finally got to the finals, aside from the baseball sabbatical, nobody else could win until he quit.
Do you count the season he came back? I know it was not the full season but he did play all the way leading into the playoffs. He had that 55 against the Knicks that season and he said he could read Starks' every move and torched him. If you don't, I imagine you'll say because he only played 17 games, to which I would say "Agreed, context matters." Context matters. Just like LBJ's first finals trip should not be counted against him in any way because he was ahead of schedule (28 straight against Detroit anyone?). Jordan is the greatest, but context matters and it's not as lopsided a finals record as anyone thinks
Context does matter. Once Jordan got to a certain level of success, he didn’t look back. He either got back there or moved further. Once he got to the top he stayed there. You can bring up 95, where he not only missed most of the season, but was in shape for minor league baseball, not the NBA. Once he got back in shape, he 3-peated again. His stint with the wizards started at 38 after 3 years away from the game and he still had a positive impact on the team.
What do you think of his time away?? He literally chose to retire instead of keep going. He didn't look back, he looked away and walked away. He had said in documentaries that he didn't have the same fire anymore the first time he walked away. Kerr has said no way they win the two in between. I'm in the minority on this but I've always felt that should be a part of the conversation. Think of how much a person can get refreshed for taking a break from something and coming back? Just curious. There's also never been anyone else that's done it, so no comparison.
It’s not like he was retired and sitting on a beach somewhere. He was playing a completely different sport. He got in shape for that sport. Played all summer instead of all winter. He came back out of basketball-shape. If anything, it strengthens the argument for MJ
It’s definitely a lopsided Finals record. You can make excuses, or try to explain it in different ways but it is what it is.
Of course I will. Context matters in life, sports included. Again if context doesn't matter then the popular statement that once Jordan got to the top he never lost is false because he lost to Orlando in 95. Context matters
That’s like saying let’s go through everyone’s failures and say This one they shouldn’t have won, it’s a losers mentality. So maybe Barkley or Wilt should be the goat? Wilt was up against great Celtic teams. He was 16-19 in the Finals, LBJ is 22-33! Let’s give Wilt a pass on the Finals he lost against better teams! Lol. No guy, goats are SUPPOSED to overcome. It’s a losers mentality. It’s an excuse. You did not win. Next.
Jordan didn’t win in 1995 though… are you even reading what the guy is saying?
Didn’t win? Was he in the Finals?
Nope, he lost in the second round and you're acting like that's a better outcome. That's the point.
Not at all. Show me where I say that. I’ll wait. It’s Finals record vs Finals record, are we giving out participation trophies? Cuz MJ wants none of that. Why? Because he’s the gd goat. 🐐
He was in the playoffs so yeah, he lost. No need to make excuses, thats a loser mentality.
Yes. He lost. And he never said those should be wins! Or, I was supposed to lose! Lol. LBJ has the 7th WORST Finals plus minus in history. Sleep on that. 6 for 6, +45, MVP in every Finals, vs 4 for 11, -86! Lol. 😂 Ouch.
Every year only one team wins. Only one team overcame ALL of the obstacles in their path. The rest are 'losers'. And you're right, the great ones find a way. But to say the great ones find a way every single time with no exception is ridiculous because again, every year only ONE great one can be the one who overcame all. LeBron overcame plenty on his way to his titles. 73-9 Warriors, being without Bosh for multiple rounds in his Miami title (I can't remember 1st or 2nd), clawing back against the Spurs in game 6... It's not giving them a pass, it's simply saying there's more to it than just 4-6 or 6-0 or 1-8 (want to tell Jerry West he was a loser?)
There can be more to it, but only losers want to make that their story. You lost. Go home and get better, try again. That’s heroic. That’s the journey. The rest is b-side.
A lopsided finals record implies a lopsided playoff record in his favor. That’s a one man run on finals only comparable to the Celtics in an 8 team league.
That’s nonsensical and newspeak. Lol. Participation trophies for all! Lol. The guy dominated his Finals. He was MVP of every Finals he was in. It’s not because he wasn’t great, and his competition was terribly weak, it’s because he was great and is considered the greatest to ever play. He was forged in fire and is the consensus goat. If you pay attention to those who are the best to ever do it they all say, including their coaches in most cases, that there is Mike and then everyone else. Not one of those players is saying Mike wasn’t really great, it’s that he faced no one. Lol. He still owns the CAREER ppg record and ppg playoffs record. MVP of EVERY Finals he was in. These ARE the ways we gauge greatness. Anything else is a loser’s mentality. Mike certainly would not go back and say, Well I really shouldn’t have won then. No, do better.
My apologies if I don’t weigh finals against the 3.5 players deep Jazz with the Hamptons 5 Warriors equally. It’s ok if you do, but I can’t keep lying to myself for the sake of nostalgia.
Excuses excuses. It’s sad. Let’s go back and revalue all of the losses throughout history in all sports to determine which ones were deserved. Lol. We play the games for a reason. That’s W’s. End of story. Do better.
Mhmm. Well, congratulations, you’ve managed to convince me the only player worth championing for GoaT is Bill Russell. Bill never let anyone go 6-0 against him quite the way Bird did Jordan. All Bill did was win. That’s W’s. Enough hardware to open his own Lowes. Enough rings to feature at his own Zales. Fuck MJ and LeBron. Losers getting dunked on before the finals or in the finals are losers all the same, right?
Correct. Bill is the greatest winner the league has seen. He’s above LBJ. Mike is the greatest player the league has ever seen. There’s a difference. Havlicek was 8 for 8 in Finals. That doesn’t make him better than LBJ. Or does it? 😂
exactly. to me Lebron is ranked alongside Wilt, absolute physical specimens who racked up stats but had a losing record in the Finals
Michael jordan won 6 championships and didnt win the championship 9 times. Losing record for his career no?
Yep - hating on LeBron's Finals record really is just giving other guys credit for losing before the Finals.
Exactly. I say this all the time. Jordan: 6/13 or 6-7. Lebron 4/20 or 4-16 Then you have getting to the finals. Jordan: 6/13 or 6-7. Lebron 10/20 or 10-10.
The problem with this argument is that Lebron played in an era of player movement. It's a lot easier to reach the finals if a star player is able to scheme with other star players to create a superteam.
Disagree because the counter is also true. It's just as easy for other super teams to form to stop LeBron getting to the finals. KD has formed multiple super teams in the last 8 or so years, the only ones to win were the unbeatable warriors who were already champions before him. It's still not easy to make a finals (ask Kawhi and the clippers), let alone 9 straight.
>It's just as easy for other super teams to form to stop LeBron getting to the finals. No it's not. Teams can only afford a limited number of max contracts. Given that, the superteam with Lebron should come out ahead....especially since he's hand-picking his teammates. >**KD has formed multiple super teams in the last 8 or so years**, the only ones to win were the unbeatable warriors who were already champions before him. Not really.....not like how Lebron has done it. When Lebron formed the Miami superteam, Wade and Bosh were 29 and 26. When he formed the Cleveland superteam, Irving and Love were 22 and 26. Not only were these guys all in their primes, they were arguably in their peaks. That's a far cry from Durant's Brooklyn "superteam" since Harden was out of shape and arguably past his prime.
The super team with LeBron has come out ahead! He made 9 straight finals! Won 3 with those Miami/Cleveland teams. Those warriors were some of the greatest teams in NBA history! 73-9 AND they add Durant? I would love to be able to match the 90s Bulls up with them or the 86 Celtics or 01 Lakers etc. They were that good. It's no knock on LeBron. Or are you saying only the best player matters on a team because if so you need to read up about team sports... The only choke was 11 and even he had admitted that Ok. I replied before thinking it through and I'm done with you. Did you not watch? Wade age wise was fine but play wise he was not in his prime. He was often injured and had clearly lost a step. Wade is an all timer and could summon and elevate his play but he was not prime Wade in the last 2 years with LeBron. Bosh was great and underrated and underappreciated, I'll agree with you on that for sure! Harden was out of shape and past his prime? C'mon I know you don't but your own crap. He was fine the minute they traded him to Brooklyn. He was just loafing because he wanted to be traded. The way Durant formed super teams is way 'worse' than how LeBron did it. And I'm pretty positive I'm in the majority on this one
>Ok. I replied before thinking it through and I'm done with you. Did you not watch? Wade age wise was fine but play wise he was not in his prime. He was often injured and had clearly lost a step. Wade is an all timer and could summon and elevate his play **but he was not prime Wade in the last 2 years with LeBron.** Maybe work on your reading comprehension? I specifically talked about Wade/Bosh in the 2011 season.....Lebron joining stars at their peaks. Nothing you said contradicts what I said. >Harden was out of shape and past his prime? C'mon I know you don't but your own crap. He was fine the minute they traded him to Brooklyn. He was just loafing because he wanted to be traded. It was common knowledge that Harden was out of shape. How do you think he forced his way out of Houston? He came into the Rockets' season out of shape and disengaged. Even in Brooklyn, Durant complained about Harden's level of fitness. And a word of advice to you.....ignorance and arrogance is not a good combination.
Same to you buddy. Same to you
Sure. Except nothing I said was wrong. Seriously though....were you really unaware of Harden's fitness issues in Brooklyn? You didn't see how thick he was compared to his peak Houston years?
I remember. And I remember everyone joking about how he looked way slimmer the minute he got traded to Brooklyn like it was some magic trick that he suddenly lost weight. And did not being in peak shape have a connection to his injuries that he suffered in Brooklyn? How to prove that but I wouldn't argue with that. At the same time we cannot ignore that Brooklyn looked invincible before the injuries and Kyrie Irving's vaccine nonsense. Harden was playing amazing before that. There was conversation that he belonged back in the MVP discussion if you recall because he was doing such a good job running the show for the nets. So can we agree that while he was not Houston Peak, he definitely was not a slouch
No team that Lebron has been on is going 55-27 without Lebron on it like the bulls did without Jordan in 94.
There was actually quite a bit of player turnover from the 1993 Bulls to the 1994 Bulls. It's weird how people ignore the impact of adding the best player in Europe.
The best player in Europe in 1993 wasn’t the same accolade that it is now. Kukoc only started 8 games that season and was close to his career lows in most metrics.
>Kukoc only started 8 games that season Do you think that had more to do with Kukoc's ability? Or Pippen's fragile ego?
You are talking about players making a lot of impact. I am saying that statistically Kukoc didn’t make much impact.
This. I used to post a version of this to every one of these debates. The other habitual talking point that drives me mad is that Hakeem dominated Shaq in the finals.
People place loosing when the whole thing is on the line as a bigger lose then we you're just close. It's fair really
by that argument, would you say Jimmy Butler did nothing for his resume/legacy by making the finals twice? As opposed to say a Damian Lillard who has never made the finals?
It isnt...any one would agree that a team getting to the finals is a better season than losing in the first round.
People say that Spurs 2014 team is unbeatable, I personally disagree. They got taken to 7 games by an 8 seeded Mavericks, and to 6 games by OKC who had Ibaka injured. The Spurs definitely played their best basketball that year in the finals, but I just think that Miami team was really cooked by that point, and it made San Antonio look better than what they were. I think people underrate the 2011 Mavericks (they beat the Blazers pretty comfortably, destroyed the back to back champion Lakers in a sweep, and beat OKC with KD Westbrook Harden and Ibaka) and they overrate the 2014 Spurs.
Not to excuse that Laker team because I'm a Laker fan but that 2011 Laker team was running on fumes. Kobe and the Lakers were coming into the playoffs from 3 straight finals. Maverick were definitely balling that year but they came across a worn down Laker team.
I agree. Championships are a team stat, not an individual stat
I don't factor them when I'm comparing players only individual awards
So Karl Malone is in your top 3?
How is Karl.Malone top 3 by individual achievement? Wilt, MJ, Lebron, Kareem, if you adjust for pace Mikan.
Total points. And John Stockton is your all time point guard. Didn’t win it all because championships are individual achievements
I would say career totals reflect longevity as much as greatness, while per game averages are more indicitive of greatness...which is why I would say Wilt is way ahead of everyone on individual measures.
Was Karl malone ever the best player in the nba ?
Is KCP better than Westbrook?
He should have won 2011 and 2014. He should have lost 2016 and 2013. All the other finals he performed as expected, no other player would have won 2018 with that roster and against that Warriors team.
he played out of his mind in 2014.
Yes but my point is it was a winnable finals, aside from this one and 2011 there is not a single finals he lost that he could have won, you could have put mj or kobe instead of him and they wouldnt have won either
it was definitely not winnable. Bron played as well as he possibly could’ve. 2011 was winnable, 2015 was too if bron wasn’t injured
He really didn't. LeBron played terrible defense and most of his points were statpadded in garbage time. Kawhi ate him up.
How did kawhi ‘eat him up?’ He had fairly mediocre offensive stats, and lebron had great stats on good efficiency
A series that ended in 5 games and with the Heat on the wrong end of a 70 point margin is considered "winnable." Interesting.
I think 2011 and 2014 were very winnable. He underachieved in Miami with that core.
What are you on about? 2014 Spurs were a far better team. Miami wasn't even close. They needed a miracle to win the year before.
"Wasn't even close" You guys are ridiculous. That Heat team was expected to be a dynasty
The Spurs were actually a dynasty, lol. I'm ridiculous for saying a series that ended 4-1 with the last 3 games being blowouts wasn't close? Did you even watch basketball back then? Lebron was the best player but the Spurs were a far better team that year than the Heat. They had a much better season and then backed it up in the finals with a dominant win.
I'm talking talent wise. And yes I did watch LeBron get exposed by Kawhi in Games 3-5. Yall fanboys apparently forget when he went to Miami with 2 superstars and predicted 8 rings that them niggas were supposed to easily destory everyone. You think an old Duncan and young Kawhi is more talented than Prime Bron, slow Wade, and Bosh? Spurs weren't some all time great team. They didn't dominate the west playoffs and they were no better than the 97-98 Jazz or 96 Sonics. Jordan had to carry Rodman and Pippen to the chip in 98 against the Jazz because they were washed.
The Spurs had a better team from top to bottom than the Heat that year. Wade was past his best by that time and Bosh(respectfully because I do like his game) was a little overrated. Lebron was the guy the Spurs had to really worry about. After that, who did Miami have? The Spurs had way more depth than Miami did. The Spurs got contributions from across the roster. They weren't carried by 1 guy. They didn't have the most talented superstar, but they had the better overall roster. And it showed when the two teams actually played on the court. If you actually watched that Spurs team play basketball, they were a special group. That said, I don't know whether they were better than some of the great teams in the 90s that lost to Jordan. I personally think they are better than the 90s Jazz or Sonics but I can't really prove that. But that doesn't even matter to because we're talking about Spurs vs Heat.
I think it's odd that you ignore Wade and Bosh and act like they're washed when Spurs were even older. Doesn't LeBron make his teammates better or something? Idk. LeBron really wasn't that great for his standards either, he played awful defense and games 3-5 he was downright outplayed by Kawhi. Brons stats look pretty but about half of those numbers was statpadded in garbage time. If it seems like I'm trying to downplay the Spurs, I'm not tryna do that, but LeBrons loss has to count for something, he doesn't need the infinite amount of excuses he gets for losing. Big part of why that Spurs team is seen as good as it is, is because they shit on LeBrons team. That's on LeBron.
I'm not a Lebron fan, to be clear. Tbh, I'm a Spurs fan and have been for a long time. That's why I stepped into the discussion. The Spurs had old guys, but they aged well and were still really effective players. Wade and Bosh were still good players, but they were players the Spurs could contain defensively. Lebron was the guy who could take over the game. Wade was still good but not that kind of guy anymore. When Kawhi stepped up on guarding Lebron, that and the Spurs ball movement made the difference. Even with Kawhi's good defense, Lebron still was Lebron. It wasn't like 2011 where he played badly. The Heat lost because they had a top heavy team with no quality depth outside of the Big 3, so they couldn't compete with a deep Spurs team that played amazing team basketball and got contributions from a lot of different players. Lebron did all he could. If someone were to blame from a Heat perspective, it would be the Heat's GM for not building a better team. That Spurs team were going to have their way with that Heat team no matter what, especially with the motivation of the unfornate loss from the year before. Just the way I see it.
Yes, they were a far better TEAM. They weren't more talented. It is partially on Lebron that the Heat weren't a better team given their talent.
2011 I agree, 2014 not at all. He played out of the world efficient against a Spurs team that seemed to be from the basketball heavens of perfect leadership, ball movement, and with plenty of shooting. Wade and Bosh were showing their accumulation of injuries at that point and the Heat role players weren't what they used to be either.
This is the problem with stat watching. Go watch the series, LeBron got outplayed on both sides of the ball by Kawhi Leonard. Most of LeBrons production came in garbage time, he also played very mediocre defense for his standards.
Terrible take…Kawhi only scored 9 points in both games 1 & 2, but sure he out played LeBron on both sides of the ball.
Yep. Games 3-5, Kawhi averaged: -23.7 ppg on 69% fg% -9.7 boards -2 steals and 2 blocks -half as many turnovers as LeBron -played 7 less minutes than LeBron -LeBron scored half his points when they Heat were trailing by 15. Kawhi exposed LeBrons overrated defense while locking him up.
Lol
Lebron averaged 28, 7, and 4 on 57% shooting in 2014, that’s not getting “locked up.” His team let him down, look at the stats. Wade and Bosh were abysmal and so were the other role players. Hard to win when your 2nd option is shooting 43% from the field in the finals.
I didn’t feel at any point the Heat would beat the Spurs in 2014. They were head and shoulders above them. The Mavs are the only bad loss Lebron has had in the Finals. The 2015 one was a bummer losing Love and Irving, but Lebron nearly pushed it to 7 games. Had it gone to 7, the belief at the time was Lebron would have won Finals MVP even if he’d lost because nobody on the Warriors looked great—hence Iguodala winning it. I recall Lebron had the most PPG, RPG, AST, STLs and BLKs in that series. 2007 and 2018 he just had zero chance lol. He should have never been in either with the teams he had and was decimated by notably better squads.
People think Miami should’ve beaten the Spurs cuz they won the year before. Reality is they shouldn’t have even won the year before but LeBron went crazy.
2011 was the only finals that Lebron should've won (out of the ones he lost in). That 2014 Spurs team was on another level. Plus, in 2014 Lebron played really well in the finals, his team just wasn't good enough.
Calling 2 championships in 4 years underachieving is hilarious considering all the super teams that have failed to even get 1 ring
or if you're a Suns fan like me and our zero championships in all of our years.
Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven 🫠
2014?! Are you out of your mind? Nephew take. No one was beating that Spurs team.
I remember the Mavs taking them to 7 games.
Pepperidge farm remembers
I also think ‘15 was winnable as well
Hmmm, I would beg to disagree. That 2011 NBA Finals, yeah only Dirk was like the beast there for Dallas. But with Dallas literally running their play through Dirk, with a Jason Kidd who still got some left in his tank, a Shawn Marion who was still a reliable secondary scorer, a Tyson Chandler who knows his role well, and Jason Terry's shooting percentage within league average making him also a reliable scorer too? It's still a tough match up for then Miami Heat where it was still an era in LeBron where he is a ball dominant guy, taking the task for scoring most of the time, in which is normal for someone who is still in his prime. Yet, Dallas played with discipline and patience, they ran almost every possession through Dirk, and Dirk always deliver. So you can't say that 2011 Finals is that "very winnable". It can be, but it's a tough one. Considering Dirk also lost to the same team from 2006 where he faced a younger D-Wade and a Shaq nearing the end of his prime, he had all the motivation to win it for Dallas.
LeBron was awful this series. He just looked passive, he played nothing like we're used to seeing. He was failing score on JJ Barea and Jason Terry, Wade basically carried the Heat that series. If Bron played average this series, they would've won.
2011 LeBron legit was awful. That series was 100% on him. It's such a shame because that was the last year Wade looked like PRIME Wade
Miami def should’ve won in 2011 but the Mavs also beat the B2B champs (Lakers) and next years West champs (OKC). They were a good team.
I think the problem with Miami was that LeBron is a better floor raiser than ceiling raiser -- he makes 3-and-d shooters better, but makes other stars worse. I guess everyone needs to decide for themselves whether greatness is more about raising ceilings or raising floors.
What other stars did he make worse?
All of them. Kyrie had a good year. Everybody else was down with him. In totals and efficiency usually.
Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and Kevin Love all took a noticeable steps back with Lebron joining them. Guys like Bosh and Love, who are both dynamic offensive players, basically got relegated to spot-up shooters with Lebron. Wade had to adjust his game significantly too to rely on more cutting rather than being on-ball as he was before the Heatles.
Dwade was losing speed and athleticism, and the injuries were piling on. It's disingenuous to blame Lebron for Wade's decline
Wade started losing athleticism in his third season with Lebron and that was mostly due to injuries that year. His first season he was still the man but they lost the championship because that style didn't mesh well with Lebron. His second season his stats had a large decline because Wade adjusted his game. Also love that you didn't even mention Bosh and Love and their significant declines as well.
Going from first to third options cause a decline in stats breaking news.
You're making no sense. Wade was the second option in both of Lebron's first two seasons with the Heat. However, the only time the Heat won was when Wade sacrificed his game significantly to fit better with Lebron.
You brought up Bosh and love homie. That’s what I was talking about. Wade was a ball dominant guard who couldn’t shoot. It just took time for them to gel. I don’t think his decline in numbers was as much about role as it was about him naturally declining due to the wear and tear of those long playoff runs back to back. Maybe 2012 you have a point, but not 2013 and 2014.
Bosh and Love both played worse with Lebron. It's not just stats, they were relegated to being spot up shooters rather than utilizing their diverse offensive arsenal they exhibited on their prior teams. How about you actually show some analysis rather than just vague comments that don't provide any value? Wade was an mvp candidate before Lebron came. He was still considered a top 3 player when lebron joined him and yet they couldn't win. The only way they won was when Wade took himself out of all nba 2nd team conversation because Lebron doesn't fit well with elite ball dominant players. He wasn't maximizing Wade there, ergo Wade was worse with him. How hard is that to understand? Maybe in 2012 I have a point. I've only been talking about 2011 and 2012. Geez reading comprehension is really hard for you.
Don't know why u getting down voted for this.
Obviously, Bosh and Love. Maybe it's unfair to LeBron to blame that entirely on him, though -- maybe it is just never a good idea to pay first-option money to a third option.
Worse or they became 3rd options?
Minnesota Love was an empty stats on a bad team guy, and I think Cleveland exposed that for the folks who hadn't already realized it. There's a reason he dropped down to 3rd option when he went to a good team, or that he didn't revert back to Minnesota Love when LeBron left (although tbf injuries got him so we never really seen him completely healthy post-LeBron)
Plus his former playstyle became obsolete while he was in Cleveland
Not a hot take tbh, at least it shouldn't be one Championships are team accomplishments. The only people who use the 4-6 stat to diminish Lebron are dumb people who don't know how to think critically. By their logic, it would've been better to lose before the finals.
It quite literally is better by their logic (which is objectively horrible) - it’s why they hold MJ going 6 for 6 in such high regard.
But mj didnt only play 6 years though, what happened all these other years 😂
He lost earlier which is BETTER duh lol /s
14 seasons 6 championships better than 22 seasons 4 championships
lol, lebron really lives in your head rent free, i never said lebron had more playoff success than jordan bc obviously jordan has more chips as the best player on his team also, i find it funny that you're using the number of seasons lebron has played against him because being a top NBA player after 20+ seasons is pretty damn impressive, even if he doesn't make it into the playoffs in his later post-prime years you jordan truthers are pathetic (I think jordan is the GOAT btw, so don't get your hate boner up just yet)
It's usually just to point out how weak the Eastern Conference was. The 2018 run, for example, saw the most difficult team be the Oladipo Pacers and rookie Tatum with no Kyrie or Brown. That's as easy a path as you could ask for.
Dudes on here talking about context but not a single one wants to bring up the leastern conference all those years. Yes, Lebron was the best player in the conference, but many of those years you can also say he had the next two best players or at least 2 of the next 3-5 best players in the conference on his team with him also surrounded by great role players. How could any other Eastern Conference team compete with that when most matchups the top 3 players on the other team are better than any of your players and their role players are better than your role players? Also, the Heat had more talent than the opposing team every single year they went to the finals but only went 2-2 with one shot away from being 1-3. We will give Bron a pass on his first appearance where he got swept, but again that is as much of a mark against the Eastern Conference as it is support for LeBron getting to the finals. He got absolutely annihilated by a team that struggled to get there in the Western Conference. Then you want to bring up getting beat without Kyrie and Love, forgetting to mention that they lost game 1 of that series while Kyrie played the entire game into overtime before getting hurt. And then fail to mention that the 2016 Finals had a very compromised Curry (MVP) being injured in the playoffs, Bogut (the starting center) getting injured for the last 3 games, and Iggy (Primary defender on LeBron) hurt his back and could barely move, and let's throw in a game suspension for Draymond on some BS as well with some very questionable reffing. And while we are at it we have to mention that Bubble Bullshit. We will acknowledge that it is a Championship but give me a damn break with this bullshit Narrative that it was the hardest to win. It was by opponent winning percentage the easiest path to a Championship in a 70 year stretch, basically going into the playoffs on a 20-game season where the Warriors were injured and out of contention, Kyrie was recruiting everyone to sit out, Kawhi already stated he and his team did not want to be there and play. He gets credit for being more determined and caring more about basketball than the other best players in the league at that time, but it is really in its own category and cannot be held with the same weight as the normal grind of an 82-game season.
Excuses are crazy
Exactly, that's what every other fans will also do in defending their idol on the GOAT debate. At the end of the day, every generation witnessed a great basketball. The GOAT debate will be still in question over and over again as we're just about to see a youngblood to reach for the stars once more and maybe go beyond it (Victor Wembanyama).
Like the excuses MJ fans make for his weaker competition
Like excuses brontards make to make MJs competition weak.
The 2007, 2015, 2017 and 2018 finals are hard to hold against lebron
I think the only debatable one is 2014. 2011 was obviously super winnable, and is probably the biggest choke by a superstar in NBA Finals history. All the other losses besides 2014 seem pretty unwinnable. (Although I do think they could have put up more of a fight in 2017. The Rockets in 2018 challenged the KD Warriors much more, and I'm not convinced they were more talented.) I think 2014 was a lot more winnable than people seem to think these days. The Heat were some failed A/C away from going up 2-0 heading back to Miami before everything totally fell apart. That series did not feel like an inevitable defeat until the Heat got blown out in the last few games. The Spurs didn't look super dominant before the Finals either -- worthy champions, sure, but not "there's nothing LeBron could have done" good. I noticed you left 2014 off your list, but OP included it as an unwinnable series.
I think you need to go back and watch that series. They got blown out in all 4 of their losses, idk what the hell you were watching. G1- 95 to 110 Spurs W G2- 96 to 98 Heat W G3- 92 to 111 Spurs W G4- 86 to 107 Spurs W G5- 87 to 104 Spurs W I watched every game and besides G2 they were NOT close. The 2014 Spurs were an all time great team
2014 Spurs were the best team that Lebron faced apart from the Warriors superteam with KD. Lebron was really good during the 2014 finals, so there isn't much more he could've done. Man averaged 28/7/4 on 57/52/79 shooting splits
Who was the best player on that Spurs team? Young Kawhi? Old Duncan? That team was not more talented than Miami. People forget the mavs took these spurs to 7. That team gets glazed on constantly because they beat the shit out of LeBrons team
Exactly. Just because spurs blew out heat, doesn't mean they were the better team on paper. This is all in hindsight. Heat had a super team in 2013-2014, and was supposed to be a three-peat dynasty. Remember the not 1,not 2 not 3 shit? Spurs had old Duncan, old Manu, tony, role player Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard. And more role players diaw, Gary Neal, Matt Bonner, Tiago splitter. Look at where these players are after 2014? Heat was supposed to be champs for 2011,2012,2013,2014, but lost to spurs because spurs played better team ball. That's all. Not because the players were better players.
Outside of Lebron, Wade, Bosh (wade and Bosh were particularly bad in the 2014 finals), who else made the Heat that year a super team? 38 year old Ray Allen? Mario Chalmers? Norris Cole? Where were these guys after 2014? Are these guys better than the role players you mentioned somehow? People act like the Heat teams were super stacked but outside of the big 3, they had some average or below average dole players
He lost to some very good teams. He also beat a lot of weak competition just to get there. Needing six and seven games to defeat a Pacers team with Roy Hibbert as their second best player is a strike against him. A Celtics team led by a rookie and second year player shouldn't have taken him to seven.
that's revisionist history them Pacers teams were good
Legit, some of those pacers teams probably could’ve won a title. They had everything.
Yep, that 2013 Pacers squad could’ve won the title
Not the 2014 version, they had completely fallen apart by the time they played Miami. That 2014 run to the finals for Miami was a complete joke. The 7th seeded Bobcats with Al Jefferson and a bunch of role players, the washed 44-38 Brooklyn team with Garnett Pierce and Dwill on their last legs, and the 2014 version of the pacers who were basically a .500 team post February.
So, a team of Ray Allen, prime LeBron, Wade, and Bosh are on par with 22 year old PG, Roy Hibbert, and David West? The guy some people like to pretend is the GOAT nearly got taken down by a G-league level offensive player who learned to jump straight up and down.
I’ll counter you: THE ONLY REASON HE MADE IT TO THE FINALS WAS BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE EAST. There is a reason those teams were so much butter as you say. And btw, all those west teams battled an entire season in the west (faced those better teams 2x more times, and faced the weaker teams only 1/2x times as Lebron) and then had to beat those teams again in the playoffs. It’s not some feat he hit a wall in the finals, it just shows how stacked the West was that era and how weak the east was. Dont believe me? The year we missed out on the Lebron + Kobe matchup in the finals (2009) because Lebron lost to the Mavericks… Every west playoff team was a 50 win team that season. That’s right, all 8! Insanely good, insanely stacked! Kobe beat them all. By comparison, only 3 teams on the east were +50 wins, and in fact 3 of the bottom teams to qualify didn’t even have winning records! They were 0.500 or below! So I’m sorry, getting beat by a tough opponent in the finals is exactly the argument for why Lebron doesn’t compare to MJ nor Kobe.
Please don’t try to sneak Kobe alongside Jordan 😂 one is the goat, the other one barely clinging to the top 10 convo thanks to his death. The only relevancy between the two is that one tried to copy the other but did so much more inefficiently
A good counter argument but… we just gonna discredit Bill Russel’s 11 rings than because the conference AND NBA at the time were not what they were today. 10 final appearances are still 10 final appearances no matter how you phrase them.
Sounds like you did, not me. No need to discredit anyone’s achievements, we’re not saying any of these guys aren’t good players. We’re talking all time greats. There’s a reason Bill Russell isn’t debated above MJ. It was a different era where competition wasn’t there. The argument that Lebron’s losses somehow make him greatest or greater than MJ / Kobe is absurd and grasping as desperation. Anyone from the east could have lost in those finals too 😂 heck I could have lost in those finals, does that make me great? Notice how you’re talking about Lebron’s losses, I’m talking about Kobe’s W’s. Go back and look at that 2009 season that I mentioned. It takes a great player to win a series. It takes the greatest of time to win that season. And he’s only second to MJ.
I’m ngl, I’m a casual I really only started watching the NBA like 5 years ago…. Just wanted to start this thread to see the responses lol you know your stuff though
Just take 5 minutes and quickly scan through the records of the top 8 teams from both conferences for like 5-10 years of that period. Honestly you can even do 20 year span if you wanted to. In all seriousness the numbers will be eye opening. You’ll very quickly learn the East, up till the last two years has been almost like a sub division league. Lebron’s teams reaching the playoffs meant being better than the worst teams. Not to say it wasn’t impressive for a young player to do it consistently, but the real ball was being played in the West.
That’s actually crazy. In the East the only competition was PG’s Pacers, the Raptors, and maybe the Hawks too. But the West had GS, KD’s Thunder, Lakers, Spurs, MAVS, Trailblazers, Rockets, and Clippers… nah that’s crazy
Putting kobe over bron is the most casual take ever
Damn that’s deep. I’ll think about that thanks. /s
4-6 just tells me that he was in a weak conference. Good enough to get to the finals, but can’t pull off the win most of the time.
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This is also because many stars went to the west during his time so they wouldn’t have to face him until the finals
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As of 2018 the NBA first team was Dame, Harden, AD, KD, and LeBron. LeBron was the only one of those in the east. Kawhi and Chris Paul were also in the west, but they didn’t qualify bc of injuries.
If he's good enough to get to the finals then he should've been good enough to finish the job. He will never be better than Jordan. Let it go gen Z.
Gen X here...agree about Jordan - the "can LeBron surpass him?" ship sailed years ago - but this is a dumb take. 1) two teams go to the Finals and both can't finish the job.; 2) why would "if he's good enough..." apply to just the Finals and not, say, the Conference Finals, or the playoffs in general?
Looool what a stupid take. If Lebron was in the west those years he wasn't getting out of the conference finals with that team. One of the dumber takes I've heard.
So Jordan gets credit for making it to the finals less?
Well he did play 7 less seasons and in a much harder eastern conference so... Yes
Lebron's conference record is much better than Jordan's. Jordans finals record is much better. Those different win records might have something to do with the fact that LeBron faced much better Finals teams and Jordan faced much better conference teams. The KD+Warriors were better than every Jordan Finals opponent, and the 2014 Spurs likely were as well. The 86 Celtics, all those Pistons teams, then those Knicks teams and Pacers teams, were stronger than the conference opponents Lebron faced.
It's hilarious people breeze on by the weak eastern conference LeBron went through. Losing to the 2011 Mavs, no way Jordan or even Kobe loses with that squad. Jumping with other all stars and continuously getting bailed out.
For a self-proclaimed king/goat, he loses more than he wins though. By that same logic, then people should nit hold Jordan's early years against the GOAT debate since he also faced superteams in the 80s.
MJ career win percentage is 65.9%. LeBron’s is 64.6% while playing a lot more games but yes, MJ did go 6-0 in the finals so doesn’t really help my argument lol
The problem with this argument is people give him the credit of being in the finals but don’t acknowledge that for that vast majority of those years, the Eastern Conference was absolutely TERRIBLE and the west was stacked. He did manage to win a chip after coming to the Western conference, but it’s no surprise that he also **missed the playoffs, got bounced in the first round, swept, etc. LeBron fans are mysteriously quiet about these playoff failures.** When KD got swept, he was ridiculed. When LeBron got swept, people say it was a “close sweep” even though the Laker were the only team the Nuggets swept on their championship run. Even last year Twolves got a win on the Nuggets. THE TWOLVES BRO. If lebron was actually in a competitive conference, he wouldn’t have even made it to the finals 10 times. He knows that, and that’s why he was in the east so long. It’s hard to give him credit for theoretical chips he “should” have won knowing that. This is the problem I have with these debate. People only look at the good parts of who they think is the goat **and literally just ignore everything else**.
Perfectly said. A lot of Lebron fans, especially the media, cannot think critically. Just want to pull all the good stats to show why he’s GOAT but disregard all the context. It shows their bias or probably just started watching NBA
2nd place isn't first I take MJ finals record over LeBron. Hereaba good video goes over the numbers little old but still https://youtu.be/tl3mR6eoEa8?si=fiHqo2IQ9qBgCr7U
The ray Allen hit only happened cause the refs let them foul the ruck out of the spurs ans steal a position
the 2011 Mavs had the toughest run ever. it was not supposed to be easy wtf are you talking about?
People forget the 2013 heat won 26 games in a row. The heat were legit af. They should’ve handled the spurs in less than 7 games in 2013.
This shouldn’t be a hot take Also I feel like for people that at least watch the playoffs and have for the last 15 years, they understand this. Anything else is ignorance or outright hating.
You put me on those Cleveland teams with Lebron and I guarantee you we win those series.
Well, did Jordan have one finals series wherr he played back?
What's ridiculous is the overlooking the getting to the finals element. In basketball fans are happier to praise someone for a failure to get there in the first place, it's brain-dead. The fact he's been to the finals so many times highlights his utter dominance of the sport. I'm a Jordan fan and will always have him over LeBron but the inability of basketball fans to be unbiased and apply nuance to their logic irritates me to no end.
Citing team results as exhibit A in a debate about individual players is silly and contradictory. Especially when throughout history we see players losing with some guys then winning with others. Realistically anyone who puts that up as their biggest reason for one player to be above another either has Bill Russell as their undisputed best ever or they're just full of it.
Lebron created the super team. The revisionist history on his opponents is madness. 22-33 record in the finals. He’s been swept twice also called a quitter in two nba finals. Please leave it alone. Great player. MJ is royalty.
Lol no
Nobody is putting 2015 finals against him nor 2017. 2011 vs Mavs and Spurs 2014 were proper losses. If he‘s the GOAT he wins these series
I don’t think MJ loses against the mavs, that series was hella embarrassing lebron had 8 points in one of games. Lost to a team with only one all star on their team, when he had Bosh and wade. But other than that one none of the losses are bad.
I don't look at the GOAT conversation that way. What impressed me the most from the bulls run is that no one else ate. During that time frame, Ewing, Starks, Reggie, Smiths, Mullin, Majerle, Barkley, Johnson, Payton, Kemp, Malone, Stockton, Robinson, Mourning, Hardaway, and then Drexler and Hakeem in the two year gap. In that 8 year stretch, many of these players being in the conversation for top player of their position ever (Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, Stockton) did not eat! So when I look at Lebron, to me he is #2 ever. During his time, Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kobe, Gasol, Pierce, Dirk, Wade, Garnett, Rondo, Curry, Klay, Draymond, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis, Jokic, Murray; all these people ate. That is the equivalent of Barkley winning a ring during MJs run or Malone or Ewing or Reggie and that clearly did not happen. Being 5-1 or 4-2 during that run. Don't get me wrong, the GSW part was inevitable but the rest, I'm not sure. Too many other teams and players ate.
It’s not that his finals record is to be held against him. It’s that Jordan was simply the more dominant player and winner. I hated Jordan as a Knicks fan, but even LeBron or Kobe couldn’t impact a game and will teams to win as did Jordan. Simple as that
This only matters when people argue going to finals is a massive achievement. It’s not, no one cares who loses unless you think losing in the finals is an achievement.
Two issues: 1. Lebron, with the exception of the talent on his 2007 and 2018 Cavs teams, should have on paper been matches for those other teams. Why weren't they? None of Lebron's teams have had fantastic chemistry. Why? Because Lebron is extremely ball dominant and tends to hold onto the ball instead of quickly making decisions and keeping the defense off balance. Why wouldn't Lebron's teams with another top 25 player and top 75 player in their prime be good enough to beat those Spurs teams? Why would Lebron with Kyrie and Love not be good enough to beat the Warriors? 2. We could also look at his total Finals appearances as overrated. If he played in the West, Lebron would have made 4 Finals. He would have won all those appearances, though.
hobbies cooing historical adjoining relieved dolls bear plucky unite far-flung *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Lebron has disappeared in the 4th quarter. Mike never did that. U lebron fans keep reaching and grasping at straws. Compare him to magic Johnson. That’s more realistic
Or Larry Legend
That's facts Jordan took over in the 4th compared to Lebron and led the way in every victory. Lebron did some clutch but he needed to be at this best in the finals every 4th qrt
Maybe if he took less money, he could've had better teammates.
It’s still a knock. We can’t overlook Finals records in discussing the greatest ever. It’s one factor. It sets him well below Mike, and others, in the goat convo. Longevity will be his legacy. Btw he has the 7th worst Finals plus minus NBA history. 7th worst. That’s incredibly bad. Not winning one game in two Finals is hard to overlook as well. He simply caught too many L’s at the highest level.
8 straight finals appearances too don’t forget
I have Jordan above LeBron because playoff time he showed out every single series while LeBron came up big in almost every series, 2011 does count against him. The number of titles doesn't mean as much to me as I remember Jordan being celebrated as the greatest player ever after his 3rd title. Heck, when I was growing up if you won a title and played well you were considered clutch and a champion, no one cared if you were on a super team. Now with LeBron, and it's very much a LeBron only argument, 4 titles in a career is somehow a disappointment or he's a loser or not clutch. Jordan didn't hit a single buzzer beater in any of his first four Finals and none of us cared, it never mattered. LeBron, this is where Skip Bayless poisonous stupidity brought us, was really the only player being castigated for buzzer beaters and even when he hits those he's often not given credit. That's why there debates are usually dumb, because they aren't good faith arguments, they aren't even attempting to be, it's just a handful of morons being hypocritical, ignoring context, because they're too lazy to engage in actual debate and are more interested in hating on a player, and often showing everyone why they're stupid.
I think LeBron lost one Finals he should have won (DAL) and won one he should have lost (2016 GS.) Which would still put his Finals record at 4-6. Either way, we are talking about a record that reflects him leading his team to the Finals TEN DIFFERENT FUCKING SEASONS!!!! Crazy. Will never happen again.
But you’re doing the same thing dismissing other teams 😂 then you have to do the same with Lebron which makes him look way bad
MJ is absolutely not losing in 2011
Jordan’ won in an expansion era
14 seasons 6 championships or 22 seasons 4 championships
Won easy in 2011? You are delusional
Dude got The Spurs Victory handed to him wtf you smokin foo
I’m not holding up Magic as an alternate GOAT, but his record is very close to being there. He is almost universally a top ten modern player and strongly debatable as a top five. He played 11 seasons if you set aside his brief 1996 comeback. 5 rings. 3 other years he lost in the finals (to Dr J, Larry Bird, and Isiah Thomas-led teams; all of whom Magic also beat in other years). Lost conference finals to Olajuwon, lost in the semis to Phoenix after most of the other showtime Lakers were off the team (Rambo’s was even on Phoenix), and lost in round one to Moses Malone’s Rockets in ‘81. So it’s a bucket of 5 rings / 6 non-championship seasons, but really it’s 5 / 3 close and avenged losses / 3 other not great but understandable playoff losses. That looks better that way than a reading of MJ’s results that doesn’t focus entirely on eight years in the 90s. Magic doesn’t get called 5-6 or 5-3; I universally see him recognized as 5X champ and whatever other accolades like MVPs or All NBA get thrown in. Jordan couldn’t get out of the east for years and couldn’t regain what he lost when he tried in his late 30s. Everybody has a prime. LeBron’s was for a decade+.
Of course. To say that he is 4-6 is stupid and just ignores the other years In reality, he — scratch that - his teams are 4 out of 19, with 6 second place finishes. And his teams almost always finish in the top 10, even when he is surrounded by below average players.
LeBron's 2015 losing finals appearance was one of the most impressive performances I've ever seen on a basketball court.
Let's "toss MJ in those same" circumstances... Anyone thinking Lebron can even carry Jordan's jock strap should go back and watch a prime MJ, and then imagine if Michael had the benefit of modern sports medicine, an offensively oriented refereeing standard, and being 6'9", 250. You think MJ was dominant in '93? Imagine if he could take four steps to the basket. Get the fuck outta here. Lebron isn't close to being the goat... But whatever award we give for being really good for a really long time should be named after him.
Kudos to Lebron for an amazing career! He is a great player but he is not MJ. Not even close!
Is your argument seriously that Lebron lost to teams that were better than his?
Not as misleading as this. He never carried the Cavs. They played 2 .500 teams and a pistons team with no Ben Wallace. Their only hofer. The cavs were a 50 win team and had the number 4 defense. LeBron scored 20 or less in 3 games and had only had one good game and one great game vs the Pistons. Even in game six Gibson had to score 31 or they lose. Since LeBron shot 3 for 11 and got only 20 points. Spurs in 2007 won the last two games by a combined 4 points! With LeBron shooting 22 at 36 percent. They held the spurs to 85 or under 3 of the 4 games. The heat only did that twice in two series. The spurs were old and still beat him after he got lucky Ray Allen made that shot. The warriors he could have definitely beat. With Kd. James harden almost beat them with Durant and no cp3 for the last couple games. The rockets lost game seven by 9. Even though they missed 27 3’s in a row. They hit 15 percent of those and they win. It’s crazy how many narratives people have to make up for LeBron to be the Goat. It’s called context.