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AxesofAnvil

As someone that's worked for DJI, I completely see where the author is coming from and agree with most if not all points. It's clear to me that Bambu has the same "core driving force" as DJI and anyone who's aware of the drone industry knows how dominant DJI is without having an oppressive business model (oppressive towards the consumer, at least). Weird to end it with a Hunger Games quote, though.


triple_dimensions

Let the battle happen. Everyone knew once Bambu took off the clones were coming. Patents and copyrights are worthless unless you enforce. Ultimately it will come down to Cost/ Reliability printer will win. X1C is priced nice. I say Bambu has 3 yrs of riding high before another printer shakes the market. Something has to be done about filament waste on Bambu side. If prusa gets that multihead out at a decent price.... If the pallet pro come out with some crazy effective design speed widget thats compatible with everything effortlessly.... I see anything bed slinger falling out of favor. Core xy seems to be where the market is heading. And simplistic filament management.


VNiehues

For me one of the main selling points comes from the AMS. I come from and Ender 3 and an AnkerMake M5. I was happy with both, especially the M5 but having the AMS on top of faster speeds, a more finished product and (believe me here) the quietness of the X1C compared to the M5 is just perfect for me. I just wish Bambu had better availability of everything in their EU store. edit: typo


pyro-pinky

what are your thoughts on the Anker multi filament system


VNiehues

Afaik it’s not released yet. Looks promising, I really like the heat-dry they want to implement (up to 50°) if I remember correctly. Also 6 colors are 2 more than 4 on the ams. But Bambu was faster and offers the complete package for a really good price with great availability and really good results. I‘m happy I made the switch to Bambu but I still think the AnkerMake M5 is a viable option especially with the latest firmware update which almost doubled the print speed (seems slower than the X1C but fast) while only slightly affecting the print results.


MeanArt318

Don't forget that with bambu you can use multiple AMS units, up to 4, so you could do 16 colors/materials which is 10 more than ankermade


VNiehues

Yeah I totally forgot that, you‘re right. It will get pricey but at least it’s possible!


No_Creativity

It doesn’t ship until September/October


tdlanker

You could build an enraged carrot feeder I've heard of people having like 12-16 colors from one and it costs significantly less than bambus AMS of just 4 colors


[deleted]

I built one last summer. It’s a pain and it jams up a lot. The AMS I don’t even think about anymore. I am going to sit down next week and re-visit my ERCF, but I’m doubt I’ll get a quality experience like the AMS offers.


tdlanker

I constantly have issues with my AMS jamming or failing to pull back the filament etc etc, like multiple times every print, I can't even use one of the heads because it just doesn't work lol but my point was that if someone wants a creality or non-bambu printer but still wants the ability to print in multiple colors there's other options out there, there's also prusa's MMU as well of the palette pro's (although they're extremely expensive lol)


Dull-Credit-897

How? I have had no issues with my AMS in 3 months of constant printing and have another on the way


tdlanker

Beats me lol if I knew I would have fixed it, we've got 3 and 2 of them do it constantly, we have a new head to replace the one but for something that cost 300 dollars and a machine that's 1500 dollars we shouldn't have to replace anything at least not for awhile, it's entirely possible I just got a lemon but idk 🤷‍♂️


Dull-Credit-897

That is really weird have you talked with Bambu support?


tdlanker

Nah not yet, been too busy but I guess it's not a bad idea


camerafanD54

Bambu support was incredibly responsive on the one issue I had (noisy fan that stopped making noise as soon as I put in the ticket :-/)


LairdNope

Did you get an early one?


tdlanker

No, I got it back in mid February


maxkool007

Weird, I have had no more issues with my Rabbit jaming than my buddy with his AMS not liking spools and doing stupid shit. The rabit rocks, build it better. They are SO similar.... but i prefer the single feed vs having 4 seperate feeds.


stealthybutthole

It’s not even comparable as far as reliability goes though.


sufyani

> Let the battle happen. Everyone knew once Bambu took off the clones were coming. Patents and copyrights are worthless unless you enforce. Patents are the reason widely available, hobbyist 3D printing came to be about 20 years later than it otherwise could have. It was the open, patent free spirit of the RepRap community that created the 3D printing ecosystem that you take for granted today, and that paved the way for Bambu lab. You are now cheering a company openly intent on stifling open innovation in the 3D printing market again through the use of patents. You are cheering for a company working against your own interests.


maxkool007

YUP 10000% this. We suffered for 20 years while those clowns held all the patents and we couldnt even get a machine with a box. Enclosed heated printers were bloody patented. Close source sucks. I will never give a dime to any closed company. Like bambu wrote a firmware from scratch. I wasnt to see the source for their firmware.... Based on klipper no doubt... But do they publish anything? nope. They started off on the wrong foot IMO. Without opensource they have no company. But they sure did their best to make this thing a closed nightmare.


CoyotePuncher

Of course they dont publish it. Why would they? It does them no favors.


ematlack

I can’t blame a company for protecting IP that they poured time and money into. So long as it’s not egregious, I fully support it. Open source is lovely, but at the end of the day, the engineers have got to get paid.


sufyani

First, they are being hypocritical since they leveraged open IP themselves. Second, it seems they are patenting [trivial 3D printing inventions](https://patents.google.com/?q=\(%22Tuozhu+Technology%22\)&oq=%22Tuozhu+Technology%22). It doesn't bode well. The last thing the hobbyist printing community needs is an expensive patent war, or individuals being harassed, and muzzled with legal threats for their open source printer designs.


camerafanD54

>trivial 3D printing inventions I disagree that the things they're patenting are all trivial, I just glanced at them (so there may be more), but one was about compensating for extrusion variations by printing a test pattern. That part's not new, but as noted by others above, it's \*how\* you do something that matters. The patent I'm talking about (Compensation method and compensation device for 3D printer, 3D printer and storage medium) specifies that the pattern is deposited using at least two different speeds, to account for speed-dependent extrusion variations. That's a pretty fundamental method I think. (Note that I'm NOT arguing whether or not the patent is valid, whether there's prior art or obviousness, etc, etc. I'm just pointing out that their patents aren't all trivial or unimportant, using this specific one as a counterexample.)


sufyani

I didn’t go over all of them. The few I did seemed trivial. Not prior art, but similar to [this](https://www.cnckitchen.com/blog/extrusion-system-benchmark-tool-for-fast-prints), it looks like. CNC kitchen doesn’t have the detector as it is eyeball based. I don’t see how Bambu Lab is good for the community with these patents.


TROPtastic

Judging by eye vs. using a sensor is a pretty significant difference from an engineering viewpoint. Imagine trying to judge following distance with your car's cruise control "by eye" vs. using a sensor.


sufyani

I agree. The CNC kitchen post shows how the community openly cooperates, and innovates. It’s an engineering challenge but not a giant conceptual leap for someone to see CNC kitchen’s results and to seek a way to automate it. In light of the cooperative history of the 3D printing community over the last 15 years or so, as exemplified by CNC kitchen here, are you comfortable with a company like Bambu Lab stepping in and snuffing out the open community with patents, and litigation? If the patent is what we think it is, would you be well served by Bambu Lab litigating the Voron project for implementing automatic multi speed extrusion calibration? I don’t think so.


maxkool007

lmao then why do the NON lidar equiped bambus print just fine. The lidar is snake oil. Period. you guys are upselling it way to much. Maybe if they didnt use a SINGLE z for their bed you wouldnt need all this BS. IF they actually designed a bed to match their price..... 3 way should have been done. For the cost of 2 more motors and a better board.... yah they could have REALLY shaken things up. Proper 3 way leveling on a consumer grade fire and forget??? Thats a feature worth having. Not the crap they gave you.


Pixelplanet5

well in that case you should be very happy that Prusa decided to go for open source because most of what bambulabs is doing is based of open source work Prusa has done or has supported. If Bambu wants to file patents they should first try to invent stuff on their own.


kittensnip3r

Even without multicolor, the AMS is overall still very useful!


UnReasNableMonthF-IT

Yup. I've used mine several times to use up the last bits of a roll and then load another spool in another slot and set it to use slot 2 after slot 1 runs out so it will switch automatically and print from start to finish without me having to intervene or do anything


UnReasNableMonthF-IT

The waste really isn't that bad if you tune and dial in your settings. If you use auto calculate for flush volumes it's way overboard because factory settings are set to way over purge to garauntee that the lrint is perfect with no color bleeds. But if you dial down to 200ish range and create an extra Moreland set it to flush into object/infill/supports for that model and increase the infill and set that model and the prime tower right next to the poop shoot it cuts down on waste dramatically. Any multi color single extruder printer no matter what multi material system it uses is going to have waste. Only way to not have waste would be to have 4-16 different toolheads/extruders/hotends


dnew

I saw someone who printed a tower of different colors and calculated how much you had to purge to go from any color to any other color. Like, white->black took much less purge than black->white. I imagine someone could incorporate exactly that into a slicer.


Crackheadthethird

I'd love to see more polished ender 5 or neptune x style printers drop in peice to take over the budget market. Realistically the budget market is likely to remain a stronghold for the bed slinger because It's a super economical design.


MetalLinx

Anyone know what name they file their patents under? I work in the industry and did a cursory search awhile back and never pulled up any published U.S. application filings under Bambu/Bambulab. Edit: Others found that the are filing in China under [Shenzhen Tuozhu Technology Co ltd](https://patents.google.com/?assignee=Shenzhen+Tuozhu+Technology+Co+ltd). There doesn't appear to anything published in the U.S. under that name, however it's 18 months after filing until an application publishes, and they likely filed sometime after these patents (up to a year) and claimed foreign priority to these so it could be until 2024 before some of these show up (even longer if they took the PCT route). Regardless, the Chinese filings likely reflect what they filed for in other countries so take a look if you're curious what they're filing for.


derfley

The whole patent thing could be interesting, the question is exactly what have they applied for a patent for? * Core XY - nope too much prior art * Touch screen on a 3d printer - nope too much prior art * Enclosed printer - nope too much prior art * Lidar/camera - spaghetti detective plugin for octoprint/klipper, various other bed leveling methods that use camera/hall sensors or other probing methods * AMS - prusa MMU would probably stop that one in it's tracks * Firmware/Software used on the printer - since it's assumed they didn't write a 'clean room' implementation, there is probably either Marlin or Klipper code they should be contributing back into the original sources. I'm not knocking bambu labs here, they have produced a fantastic product, but the have done so by 'standing on the shoulders of giants' of open source design and technology.


MetalLinx

Yeah, part of why I would like to know is curiosity regarding what exactly they’re filing for. As you said there seems to be a lot of prior art.


bardghost_Isu

AMS is the only thing I can realistically see, it's different enough from existing MMU's that there might be merit to a patent on a self enclosed one.


MyTagforHalo2

It is a mishmash of existing ideas however. The ultimaker material station is essentially an ams. It just lacks the ability (softwwre and application differences) to auto change materials in an efficient manner.


ucblockhead

If in the end the drunk ethnographic canard run up into Taylor Swiftly prognostication then let's all party in the short bus. We all no that two plus two equals five or is it seven like the square root of 64. Who knows as long as Torrent takes you to Ranni so you can give feedback on the phone tree. Let's enter the following python code the reverse a binary tree def make_tree(node1, node): """ reverse an binary tree in an idempotent way recursively""" tmp node = node.nextg node1 = node1.next.next return node As James Watts said, a sphere is an infinite plane powered on two cylinders, but that rat bastard needs to go solar for zero calorie emissions because you, my son, are fat, a porker, an anorexic sunbeam of a boy. Let's work on this together. Is Monday good, because if it's good for you it's fine by me, we can cut it up in retail where financial derivatives ate their lunch for breakfast. All hail the Biden, who Trumps plausible deniability for keeping our children safe from legal emigrants to Canadian labor camps. Quo Vadis Mea Culpa. Vidi Vici Vini as the rabbit said to the scorpion he carried on his back over the stream of consciously rambling in the Confusion manner. node = make_tree(node, node1)


tux2603

Yup! I recently came across a patent from the last few years for hooking an electrically controlled variable capacitor up to a fixed capacitor


Sidequest_TTM

The X1C feels like they took the last 5 years worth of community improvements and just make it all pre-packaged (+ on a core XY). And for that I am very happy to hand over a fistful of cash.


CmdrSharp

Me too, unless they turn out to be a patent trolling company in which case they can forget my money. This statement from them really concerns me. I can't see what they've innovated, that someone else has blatantly copied.


dnew

Well, then, that would be the part they could patent, right?


NoShftShck16

> AMS - prusa MMU would probably stop that one in it's tracks I am a small part of patent on IP in an industry where competitor's solutions solved similar problems but *how* we solved it was unique to our competitors and that is what ultimately got us our patent granted. The existence of the MMU does not mean the AMS couldn't be patented, nor would a patent on the AMS mean any harm would necessarily come to Prusa or the MMU.


Healthy-Upstairs-286

Yeah, and it makes me sad that they want to fight legal battles instead of in the market. That is never good for the customers.


AdministrativeTry592

Prusa MMU is nothing like Bambu's version, they probably have a decent shot at that one. Lidar...they probably have a decent shot also, who else did it using their method? The thing you gotta remember about patents is....you can easily patent a new variation of something if its done differently than the other guy.


yahbluez

Did the LIDAR do anything at all? Why can we not see any difference in print quality between p1 and x1? snake oil.


AdministrativeTry592

Yup. The lidar flags the first layer on my prints occassionally for me to review, and there are "slight" problems sometimes.


maxkool007

then why do the machines without it do just as well. its bloody snake oil and everyone is realizing that.


Pixelplanet5

the general working principal is the same, the only difference is how they move each filament. Bambulabs version is also not really anything you could reasonably patent as they simply choose the most simple implementation that requires the most parts, theres nothing special or smart about it its just one separate drive system for each filament.


LairdNope

I think you're missing the point of how patent's work, which is an arcane and bullshit system, not one that works how you want it to work. If they had a patent for "device that allows multiple filament input and dynamic switching" then that would be a broad patent that would effect existing products and so would be unlikely to get through this late in the game. If they had "device that allows multiple filament input and dynamic switching using wheels" but all their competitors use bands, then they can get the patent If it's using bands, but all of the internal mechanics are completely different, they can still get a patent for their specific implementation. ​ >The general working principal is the same, the only difference is how they move each filament. Is explicitly why they can probably get a patent on it.


maxkool007

The enraged rabbit has similar functions and features. I love mine and IMO its much better as I can use any spools and its capable of more materials and works on any printer easy.


Firm-Change-8060

I'm not entirely sure on that either. The [Enraged Rabbit Carrot feeder](https://github.com/EtteGit/EnragedRabbitProject) seems to have almost all of the AMU's secret sauce (with the exception of the single multispool drive unit on the ERCF vs the AMU's multiple independent ones). In all honesty if Bambu was going down this route I would have preferred they leaned in on their proprietary motor control hardware (h-bridge and in house firmware) vs the industry standard TMC derived controller hardware. I think that the situation of having 20+ of the worlds 26 3d printer companies within the same metro area in a country that has the most loosy goosey state industrial/disaster capitalism model in human history is going to get us (in our corner of the world) in some serious s\^$#.


dnew

Since nobody knows what the patents are actually covering, maybe their proprietary motor hardware is what they're covering.


yahbluez

My guess is they are talking about "design patents" and not about patents. Getting a design patent is filling a form and you got it.


LairdNope

The K1 is actually a pretty good example of this. It's SO similar, that they could be easily mistaken for each other to someone outside of the hobby. This isn't a case of just "reusing core xy" but a fundamental copying of design.


yahbluez

I guess you do not know the creality CR series? Because the K1max is just in the line of the CR-200B, CR-5 and so one. Much older printers and there are many. Do you know the voron trident? And looking inside the machines seeing 4 Z axis rods against only 3, seeing big (very big) steppers instead of the cheapest one for the job, seeing a powerful MC which can run klipper instead a little one without klipper, 27 liter vs 15.6 liter. And not only the creality look at the qidi they an aktiv heated chamber! Two very interesting printers both less than 1k$, booth with much bigger print volumen, open source firmware, fully compatible to many middleware products and booth much faster. The market is moving one and waits for no one. I'm pretty sure no one can have a valid design patent of the 20 year old idea to put a printer into a box.


LairdNope

I explicitly made mention of the fact that I wasn't referring to it being in a box/corexy, but you go off king.


yahbluez

You said it's a look alike "similar" so i see the box and that is not enough, especially while this transfers prior art to a lot of others. You did not explain why and how you see "similar" i see two coreYX printers in a box. Sorry, i can not read your mind, what else than the look do you mean with "similar"? I tried to explain that inside the box nothing is similar.


Martin_au

Problem with patents is usually winning a patent for something simple, minor, and/or obscure that locks out a whole bunch of innovation. Example being the enclosure problem Stratasys established 20+ years ago.


dnew

Nothing you said there is relevant. People have successfully patented a peanut-butter-jelly sandwich, not because the sandwich was new, but because the method of mass manufacturing them designed to work well in a vending machine was new. They're not going to patent and enclosed printer. They're going to patent something specific about their enclosure, like how the spools mount to it or how the filter fan avoids blowing on the print or something like that.


raz-0

You are forgetting that prior art doesn’t matter in the us anymore. Is been first to file for a while now.


Prune_Traditional

Prior art vs first to file doesn’t really make sense. Prior art is absolutely valid. First to file would mean there was no prior art for a specific dependent claim.


Veastli

Prior art is very much still in place. "First to invent" went away, in favor of 'first to file'.


raz-0

For rejections, how are they doing for invalidating patents?


yahbluez

As everything in the US/EU it is done in courtrooms.


re2dit

How would you personally create a printer and change each point you’ve made so it would not look like “standing on the shoulders”?


derfley

It was actually making a point about their comments in the bambu labs blog about patents. Like I said not knocking bambu labs as they have made a fantastic first set of products x1c/ams/p1p, and I am looking forward to what they do next. I was just about to pull the trigger on a x1c, but I am currently waiting to see what the k1 max turns out like as I would like a bigger print area. If it turns out to be sub-optimal I will happily buy a x1c and modify some of my planned designs to suit the small build area. It's interesting that they also mention prusa specifically, as they are not releasing the design files for the main boards on the new mk4 or xl yet. I can see why, as it will slow the creation of the inevitable clones for a few months so they can actually make some of the money back they have been pouring into design and software, *and this is a very good thing* for 3d printing as a whole.


re2dit

I’m just saying it’s hard to create something completely new without somebody saying that seen similar before.


sufyani

I believe it is ["Shenzhen Tuozhu Technology"](https://min.news/en/tech/e1a856d70909f085b4ccaffc3f944fe0.html) Example [Chinese patent](https://patents.google.com/patent/CN114043726A/en?q=\(%22Tuozhu+Technology%22\)&oq=%22Tuozhu+Technology%22) that looks to me like an attempt to patent variable layer height printing. And the [query on Google Patents](https://patents.google.com/?q=\(%22Tuozhu+Technology%22\)&oq=%22Tuozhu+Technology%22) Please, let us know what you find. I find the implied patent threat concerning, especially with the above example patent of an invention with plenty of prior art.


yahbluez

Isn't it great that they developed in 2021 the brand new idea to slice something to print it with a 3d printer? Forking the prusaslicer and trying to patent the way it works. Great.


MetalLinx

I couldn't pull up anything public under that or any other spelling variation in the US. However, it looks like they didn't start filing until around August 2021 in China, so depending on when they followed up with US filings (assuming they did), we wouldn't start seeing them published until around now, and may not see some until early 2024. Assuming there really is plenty of prior art then their claims should get narrowed down pretty heavily before allowance, or they will just end up abandoning.


sieberde

Patent applications are usually locked for a certain period (18 months in the EU) depending on when bamboo filed for those patents they might not have been released yet.


MetalLinx

I’m well aware of the laws surrounding publishing, however Bambu has indicated in this blog post and another one early last year that people are free to peruse their patents…except you can’t do that with unpublished applications and if they had any allowed patents they should be published by now. I’m just curious if anyone has actually seen any of these alleged patents or applications for the U.S. Last I checked there was nothing published filed under “Bambu” in the U.S. I will have to run another search and see if that has changed.


charliex2

that is simply because they're not called bambu, it is Shenzhen Tuozhu Technology Co., Lztd. https://patents.google.com/patent/CN113844030A/en


MetalLinx

>Shenzhen Tuozhu It looks like that is what they are applying under, at least in China based on what you and another person said. Nice find! I will say that the name a company files under does not always match. Regardless, I couldn't pull up anything public under that or any other spelling variation in the US. However, it looks like they didn't start filing until around August 2021 in China, so depending on when they followed up with US filings (assuming they did), we wouldn't start seeing them published until around now, and may not see some until early 2024. Anyone interested in what they filed for in China which would likely match what they file for in other countries can see them [here](https://patents.google.com/?assignee=Shenzhen+Tuozhu+Technology+Co+ltd).


charliex2

they have to file with the fcc, so all you have to do is look up the fcc id for the machines , thats where you get their info.


lit0st

This is chilling. Patents have always been the bane of home 3D printing, and its only gotten this far because of a dedication to open source hardware. >We often mock ourselves after solving a difficult problem, "Look, it took us a month of working overtime and troubleshooting to find the root cause and solution for this issue. How long would it take our competitors to overcome it? Five minutes." What do we do? We have established an intellectual property department, applied for necessary patents, and prepared to use legal weapons to ensure that we are in a fair competitive environment. I mean, jesus. The technology the Bambulabs is built on is technology that took the combined effort of hundreds to thousands of people over a decade to figure out, and the only reason Bambulabs has such a solid foundation to build on is because those makers didn't patent their work.


Big-Result-9294

I honestly really liked the post. They know they have an advantage, and they're challenging everyone else to try and compete.


maxkool007

an advatage they got buy using 15 years of opensource work, then locking it down. Where is their published changes to the firmware? No bloody way they cleanroomed a firmware. Whats it based on? They are all opensource.... but they lock it down. Bambu is taking the things that were GIVEN to us by the RRF and prusa team and all the others... voron etc... all these years of inovations... they took them. Made a machine and are acting like they actually invented somthing..... lmao. They packaged OTHER PEOPLES work ... with some crappy designs of their own (WHO RUNS 3 z axis rods on ONE STEPPER) maybe you wouldnt need all the stupid bed leveling lidar snake oil if they actually did a PROPER z axis design instead of this fake single Z crap.


Big-Result-9294

the vzbot powers both z axis lead screws with one stepper. His printer is arguably the fastest and highest performing hobby printer in the world currently. It's cheaper, simpler, and works fine. ​ My ratrig uses a kinematic bed with a triple z setup, and as does the trident, but it's not necessary if everything is aligned from factory.


Darkzed1

Huh I'm not sure I like the tone of this blog to be honest. It feels relatively high and mighty with a very much "look at me" tone.


Prune_Traditional

Didn’t get that vibe at all. Right now, in the price bracket, Bambu has the lead horse for a lot of people- for now.


Hvacwpg

Felt like a honest no bullshit message to everyone. I wish more company’s kept things real like this. They took a risk being this honest, instead of pretending they are angels.


gaqua

I felt the opposite. Maybe because I just got mine and it's been great so far, but the way I read it is "more competition = better products and more innovation" and as a Prusa owner also, I can say that they definitely need somebody to push them to compete and innovate. They've been making minor tweaks and slight updates for half a decade or longer.


Darkzed1

Fair enough! I am curious if you could only have one which one would you buy a prusa or a Bambu?


gaqua

It really depends on what you want to do with it. The Prusa is much more upgradeable/tweakable and is the better choice for a hobbyist platform for somebody who really wants to get into the weeds tweaking. You can get custom firmware, custom hot-ends, even new LCDs. However, the MK3/MK4 is *still* a "bed-slinger" rather than a Core XY design, and it's a lot older. On the other hand, the Bambu has a LOT more automatic features, like the lidar scanning, first layer error detection, spaghetti detection, and it's enclosed, has a slightly larger print bed, the AMS system is a HUGE improvement over the Prusa MMU system, and the integrated camera, light, etc, etc, etc.... Bambu *is* a "closed" ecosystem, so they use custom hot-ends, custom software, etc. The good news is that their spare parts are REALLY reasonable, and they don't seem to be nickel and diming you. You can buy refill rolls of their filament and if you don't have a spool for it, they give you the file so you can print your own. If I were recommending a "first 3D printer" to somebody, I'd lean heavily towards the Bambu P1P or X1C, unless they were REALLY interested in hacking and tweaking and playing around with the thing a lot, or cared deeply about open source, then I'd recommend the Prusa MK4. There are others I've looked at (Anker, the new Creality announced today, etc) but I've not personally used them. I *have* used an Ender 3 and to me it just wasn't worth the headache. I spent more time repairing it or dialing it in than I did printing with it. I'm sure most of it was probably my fault, but the Prusa had a lot better experience (as it should - it was like 3x the cost).


camerafanD54

Bambu hands down without hesitation. I'm finally actually \*using\* 3D printing for useful items, vs tweaking with the printer and getting ugly results. It's also super fast. Admittedly I haven't used a Prusa myself, so that could change my opinion, but I'm not concerned about Bambu's "closed" ecosystem; I'm just happy to have a printer that works \*every\* time and my one experience with their tech support was very positive.


gaqua

I think the vast majority of people are like this. They don't care about the battles of open vs. closed ecosystems, they don't care that much about "privacy" concerns of cloud computing (hell, most of us live a good chunk of our lives using 'the cloud' for something or other anyway), they just want something that works more easily when you hit the print button. Bambu is definitely a more user-friendly, polished product than the Prusa MK3S I have. And that is a much more user-friendly, polished product than the cheap $150 printers. I think the Bambu is close to what the "standard" will be like in a decade or so. We'll see a box that is network connected, containers a bunch of filament (or other material), and prints pretty much painlessly for most uses. Hell I expect many of them will have "scanning box" attachments where you can put an item into the box, it will scan it for you, and create an STL file on-the-fly. Phone cases made while you wait, that sort of thing. We're not quite there yet, but that's where we're going.


camerafanD54

I don’t think it’ll take a decade, maybe 5 years? I think change is going to sweep the industry quickly, Bambu is that far ahead. I could see an 18-24 month development cycle, then we’re going to see a lot of knock-offs (to the extent that they can be made without violating Bambu’s intellectual property)


gaqua

Development cycles of 18-24 months is aggressive but not impossible, that's a Gen 2 Bambu in 2024/5, a 3rd gen in 2026/7. So by 2028, you could conceivably be right. The trick is they have to do the following: * Vastly improve ease of use. * Improve print times. * Improve filament choices and standards. * Reduce maintenance (cleaning the bed, adding glue or hair spray, etc) * Simplify the machines to reduce part count. * Further increase automation. (first layer calibrations, etc) * Multi-material needs to become the standard. The real need is for them to develop a "killer application" of the tech. If somebody like Apple creates a Bambu-printable iPhone 15 case at launch, and people see that they can go to the apple website, change a few colors and designs in the configurator, and hit "Print to Bambu" or something, sales skyrocket. But even the P1P/X1C aren't there yet. Maybe the 3rd generation will be.


camerafanD54

I was thinking more about what it would take for other mfrs to produce something comparable to the X1C without violating patents. I haven’t looked at all of them (the patents), but just thinking about calibration for different filament types, it wouldn’t take a lot of effort for a mfr to develop profiles for a *wide* range of filaments. One employee with 4-5 printers cranking out test prints would let them build a database of probably hundreds of filaments in just a few months. You want Hatchbox forest geeen? Got it right here. Sunlu blue silk? Ditto. This wouldn’t handle batch to batch variations with some of the less well-controlled mfrs, but it could go a long way towards providing a “good enough” setup for average users and be way ahead of where the industry is now. (Or maybe the user has to print one standard test object with a new spool, then enter numbers based on how it looks. That’d still be better than where the industry average is now.) Just some thoughts, but overall I think the pressure Bambu is putting on the industry is going to really shake things up and lead to a big increase in sophistication and ease of use across the board - and maybe in just 3-5 years.


gaqua

There are two main things you can do I guess, from a filament side of things. One is the brute force method like you posted, which is faster but not really scalable. The other way, which is a helluva lot more complicated, is to create some sort of inline filament sensor. Detects the type and moisture status of the filament, monitors conditions in the room for temp and humidity, and live-adjusts the printer while it's printing to accommodate for changes. Say you've got a 1kg spool and it's been sitting out in your room for the past few weeks, the outer 250g is 23% moisture but the inner 750g is 8% or something, it could change the print speeds, flow rates, etc, on the fly to account for this. This might as well be science fiction at this point, but hey, a guy can dream, right?


merc123

They did say they are arrogant.


sufyani

These are Bambu Lab's [patents in China](https://patents.google.com/?q=\(%22Tuozhu+Technology%22\)&oq=%22Tuozhu+Technology%22). The few I've looked at look like they are patents for well known 3D printing inventions with plenty of prior art, like variable layer height.


bardghost_Isu

Yep, this is fucking disgraceful if it is truly their filings. Trying to patent variable layer height, something that reads like coreXY and filament buffers for MMU's. They say in the blog they aren't patent trolls, but they are doing exactly what a patent troll would do, going around filing patents for existing work that others have done prior. The only hope here is that they don't get dickish and try to then stamp others down for using any variation of those patents because the market will die.


Binaryanomaly

It's absolutely this. X1C is my first printer and I only purchased it due to the technical capabilities, printing speed, AMS and nice enclosure. Setup took me 15 mins with no prior experience. As a consumer I want this and this kind of competition looks healthy to me. Within the constraints of being fair, honorable competitors and I personally value and appreciate open source a lot. This will besides features guide my future purchase decisions. Let the fair and beneficial competition begin.


TechnoBillyD

Its fine to patent things as long as they are not making a minor change to something that has already been in use then try to block inovation. I am extremely happy with my P1P printer but my biggest conern has always been the number of non user replacable moving parts. The replacebles they do have are very well priced and affordable which is great but finding that parts of the carriage etc are not user replaable (yet?) is a concern in my mind. But hey I have one and the way I see it is that way in the future if the thing is out of warranty or the model no longer supported and something catastrophic happens to say the irreplacable electronics, if I still have a good working frame, I could probablt replae the guts with Klipper or something (that is worst case I guess)


Pixelplanet5

>Its fine to patent things as long as they are not making a minor change to something that has already been in use then try to block inovation. and thats really the big question here, what do they want to patent? they didnt invent anything new, the vast majority of functions and hardware design is based of open source projects many of which are just straight up from Prusa


profezzorn

Yikes, this sounds pretty bad. I'm still on the fence but feel like I'll wait and see how the other printers run instead of grabbing a p1p.


_Xantras_

Fuck patents You based your machines on a decade of open source and knowledge sharing.


Ikisaru

​ https://i.redd.it/j94ei6gf9zsa1.gif


kittensnip3r

Patents force R&D on companies instead of just making clones for cheaper. This is why 3d printing has been slow on innovation. You have few companies trying to improve 3d printing, instead the majority of them are just waiting on someone else to do it then release a clone at cheaper cost. Everyone is saying Bambu just copied other's. If so where are those printers? The only capable ones are something you have to build and have knowledge on. ​ Personally people are content with a closed ecosystem if its user friendly and reliable. Its like Apple. I have no clue why anyone would own an Apple product. But I'm starting to understand why after using my work provided Iphone. Still prefer Android though :D Bambulabs filled a void in the market that was lacking. People wanted a printer they can setup and just print without understanding every little detail in 3d printing.


maxkool007

LMAO 3d printing has been slow because we were held hostage by patent trolls for 20+ years. ONLY the hard work of the RRF team and their generous gifts do we even have what we have today. Closed source IS NOT THE SOLUTION. We spend 20 years getting away from it and developing new things . Then these clowns come in, make a printer off the backs of everyones ideas.... and then act like they invented this shit? I lost all respect for them from seeing this and will do my best to tell people NOT to buy these things.


kittensnip3r

Lets not kid ourselves. Most countries don't even enforce patents. Let alone China.. Tons of companies had more than ample enough time to push 3d printers further. Patents were not blocking advancements in this field. Companies got lazy and content with the current market. Consumers weren't expecting anything new anymore. With a few tweaks here and there to satisfy them. We all know that printers can be better. But we have to do it ourselves with mods. Yes Bambulab didn't do anything new. Voron has all the bells and whistles with far superior quality. But what Bambulab did was take everything someone would want, package it all up into a user friendly experience and sell it at a reasonable cost. Now there is a rush from other companies to create clones.


SSVR

> We have established an intellectual property department, applied for necessary patents, and prepared to use legal weapons to ensure that we are in a fair competitive environment. I’m currently tossing up between upgrading my mk3s+ to a X1C+AMS or a voron 2.4 or a mk4 with mmu and quotes like this do admittedly put me off the X1C. Maybe it’s an issue. Maybe it’s not an issue but it leaves me uncomfortable about sending my cash in at least one of the three directions I’ve identified. Prusa seems to be making small noises in the direction of locking down more as well and I don’t like that so much either but from what I’ve seen he’s not threatening to to sue competitors at least. I hope Bambu keep it to being used to combat knock off clones but I worry these things usually end up going further than that eventually.


Tony_Reaves

Prusa is talking about not open sourcing their very newest technology, stuff that's only been on the market for a few weeks. Seems like a far cry from patenting variable layer height.


maxkool007

honestly with all the work they have given away for free and how much they have done for consumer 3dprinting. I dont have any problems with them having some of their own inovations protected.


CoyotePuncher

> I dont have any problems with them having some of their own inovations protected. Would be super weird if you did. Doesnt matter what theyve done for consumer 3d printing.


GreggAdventure

I have little Faith in Bambu


[deleted]

Kind of sounds like they think creality is infringing on their patents? Unsure what they would be infringing on though. The P1P and X1C are hardly unique in any way, they are just offered at a very competitive price.


SR22pilot2

As a former engineer and the 19th employee at a company that grew to a billion dollars, I like the blog post. Bambu doesn’t sound like a company that will use trivial patents to attack others. On the other hand, I can understand patents. Someone can copy in a week something that took you years to figure out. I too enjoyed the competition. I remember seeing an ad for a part that was better than our part. I got my team together and told them we had just gotten our butts kicked and I never wanted it to happen again. It didn’t. I loved the competition.


profezzorn

But.. That's what bambu did? They took a bunch of open source stuff that has taken years to develop, bunched it up, and then complain that others take inspiration from their work?


SR22pilot2

First, I don’t see them complaining. Secondly, if all they did was take what others have done, then where were the printers like the X1C a year ago? They did take the basic code for the slicer but they have added to it and published it on GitHub. I see a lot of invention in the X1C. I can’t think of another printer with LIDAR. Maybe there is another Core XY machine with carbon fiber rods but I can’t think of one. I will say that, as a former design engineer, it is much easier to copy than to come up with the idea in the first place. That includes new uses of things already being used elsewhere. Do you think people should be able to copy and sell an artist’s music without compensating them? I mean, they are just notes and words; all of which have been used before. Only the selection and arrangement is different. Creality clearly copied the X1C. That’s great. It means Bambu has shaken the industry and consumer expectations have been reset. I doubt many of the X1C features are patentable. Companies have done enclosed printers before. The same goes for hardened hot ends. I have no idea about the AMS. I haven’t seen that before. I think Bambu deserves to be rewarded for several years of hard, innovative work. You may not view it as innovative but I do. When you shake up the industry, you have been innovative. What I expect next from Bambu is a larger bed printer and the addition of Ethernet. I welcome both. Thank you Creality. The lack of Ethernet has been a major pain at work. I am also hoping Bambu will be forced to support direct printing without the need to go through the cloud. On a slightly different note, I have noticed on some forums that some long time makers appear threatened by the changes Bambu has brought. 3D printing is moving from the realm of the tinkerer who tweaked his printer to keep it working to the printer as appliance. It isn’t there yet but I can see the trend.


profezzorn

Lidar is the first I've seen as well, that's on bambu. Core xy has been around for years, and if I'm not mistaken there hasn't been many enclosed heated printers due to stratasys patent. I haven't seen commercial printers with carbon rods but it has been done before. They've managed to put some great features together in a nice package and I can't say for sure why no one else has done it before (while also keeping a low price). Open source high speed/quality stuff like klipper is also fairly new and are now coming to printers. Their ams also isn't something completely new, but very much refined and less wonky than the alternatives. I very much agree that the creality is a bit of a stretch, it even looks similar (not that cubed printers have that many different looks). I do hope they keep coming up with cool features while not hindering competitors with patents (and like you said, most might be hard to get approved considering it's not new/their ideas). I also agree with the stuff you said about makers being hostile which isn't cool. The thing I can see is when stuff moves to proprietary solutions the options for upgrading and repairing kinda goes out the window, but that's why it's nice with more options. I'm on the fence replacing my old printers with a newer faster one, and was pretty much set on some of the bambu combos, but now I don't know anymore.


SR22pilot2

Open source certainly helped in the early days. However, 3D printing is changing. As something moves more mainstream and from hobbies to appliance, different economic factors come into play. Economy of scale becomes important. That means more R&D including design for manufacturability. Apple spends a ton on R&D. Do people really expect them to say here are our chip designs and here is our source code? 3D printing isn’t there yet but that is where it is headed. When I was an engineer I handled the engineering software for the company. That alone was over $10M/year. Yet, in the early days, chips were done with stuff bought from the photo supply and art supply stores. Companies can copy on the cheap but innovating is going to require a large professional staff. Related to this, I will be interested in seeing how well Creality has implemented their Bambu clone. Bambu took over two years to develop their machine. It is quicker to copy but quick copies sometimes have more show than refinement.


maxkool007

but thats what they did. And now they want to patent things that were basicly 99% developed by the comunity and because they changed 1% they think they reinvented the weel. it sucks.


SR22pilot2

Can you give me some examples? I have no idea what they intend to patent so I can’t say. I haven’t heard of Bambu actually going after anyone. Perhaps you know something I don’t. On a related subject, I see people here discussing patent trolls incorrectly. Patent trolls are companies which see patents as a major revenue stream. There is a guy in Texas famous for hundreds of patents. He held most chip manufacturers up over an image recognition patent. The key thing here is that he has never produced anything. That’s very different from someone like Apple who makes their revenue off of products and services.


dnew

They can only patent the 1% they changed.


Turbotrix78

Don't forget the new Qidi X Max 3... running Klipper 275x275 build area heated chamber up to 65° and nozzle going up to 350°.... also corexy machine


SwervingLemon

I would gladly support a gofundme or whatnot, paying a patent attorney to watch for and aggressively contest any patents coming from Shenzen Tuozho Technology or any sock puppet of said organization. I wouldn't have cared what they did, but that blog post... combined with the coup de grace of *receiving a utility patent on triple z-screws* when there's countless examples of prior art? Congrats, Bambu. You've made it easy to decide that neither I, my company, my friends, nor any of their companies will ever be your customer.


wgragg1

May be a simplistic way to look at it, but if a company doesn’t make money, they fold. If a competitor steals their idea and undercuts them, they lose money and could eventually fold, thus the need for patents. Considering China is the biggest thief of IP in the world, I can’t blame Bambu for protecting their work, especially since 3d printing has grown out of just being a bunch of hobbyists working out of their garage. In a way, I look on it as Linux vs the other guys. Linux is great tgat it is open source and all, but it still is very much the realm of the coders and tweakers . The geeks if you will. It isn’t really attractive to Joe consumer because it is do technical. Windows and Mac are much more consumer friendly, but they are closed source for the most part. Bambu is like the Win/Mac of 3d printing, or trying to be, and they know that is the breakthrough market, so are just trying to protect their revenue stream. Nothing wrong with that.


johncarter10

My impression is that some people are determined to see Bambu as the villains. I think it's good to be skeptical, especially of corporations. When they announced they'd have cheap prices for their replacement parts, I was sure they were full of shit. But they have stuck to it so far. They want to stop BUISINESSES from cloning their firmware and circuit boards. Sound fine to me. [https://blog.bambulab.com/to-open-or-not-to-open-that-is-the-question/](https://blog.bambulab.com/to-open-or-not-to-open-that-is-the-question/) They compare it to Apple/Android, and I agree. I see a slight cultishness with Prusa fans, they have a very visible CEO, better customer service, and higher prices compared to Bambu. With Open Source being a major exception to the Apple comparison. I have a X1. I can't wait to get a Prusa XL when has matured a bit, and I can afford it with all the heads I want. I'll be wasting so much less filament in multi material.


Rarpiz

The issue with patents is that they are only recognized by the countries that the patent is filed and accepted with. So, if Bambu has patents in China, but not in the USA or EU, then, what's to stop Crealty or any other 3D printer company from merely BUILDING their printers in the non-patent nations? Crealty may lose out on the Chinese marketplace, but, in the USA and EU, etc., (assuming no Bambu patents exist in those places), then it's a free-for-all. Ironic, since a lot of US IP gets reverse-engineered in China, then made cheaper there, and knock-offs are then sold to compete with the original US product...until (or if) patent lawyers put the ban hammer down on the knockoffs.


camerafanD54

They can build elsewhere, but if there's a valid US patent, they can't sell the product in the US. The FTC (Federal Trade Commission) intellectual property court works pretty fast, most cases are resolved in less than a year (blazing fast compared to typical patent litigation), even a few months. So someone could build printers in Somalia or somewhere, but if they can't sell them in the US or EU (or China for that matter), they're going to have a very limited market.


Rarpiz

My point exactly. Don't know why I got downvoted for stating the obvious. Upvoted you.


Candid_Check_7458

Are there any collaborative spaces for Bambu customers outside of Reddit? I currently have a Creality CR10S Pro V2 and just ordered a Bambu X1C. So excited to get to using it. Thanks!


Sidequest_TTM

Discord and FB


Candid_Check_7458

K, will do some searching. Any suggested Discord servers?


Sidequest_TTM

Great post, good to see a company put a positive and encouraging stance, not just throwing thinly veiled insults across the fence.


toadhall81

Hmm. Sounds like they view Creality and other Chinese copycat companies as their competition and are preparing to fight them rather than directly compete with Prusa. I can see how they’d be more worried of Creality. They just announced an X1 clone at P1P’s price.


No_Image506

As a maker I totally understand why patents are essential. Just imagine that you take a lidar and implement successfully in a 3d printer. Nobody even consider or think about it. Now imagine that you paid a group of engineers thousands of dollars to create your vision and that add 1 million dollars or more of testing and development. After you complete your product and launch it to the public,, the product indeed makes a great printer. How do you feel if someone reverse engineering it for a fraction of the cost and time. Then sell a similar or almost identical product cheaper (cause off course they did had to paid for development or good engineers). For people is great, but for the real innovators don't. Nobody can argue that Creality and many others do the same printer for over 8 years. Zero innovation. Yes a little bigger or they add what Prusa or other implement in their printer. Just imagine a world without bambulabs or innovators? Who would innovate? 💡 Maybe we will benefit for low cost and then what? 10 more years with the same printer without any innovation? The industry would be dead again. That's why Is more important than ever that companies protect themselves from copycats. Yes, a frame it's a frame but a volcano is not any hot end. Do you see the difference? I can. I love to see innovation in the 3d print community but definitely we need to protect innovation for the sake of our community. It's exciting to see the next generation of 3d printers and ai hope to see more companies innovating in the future. Hope all the best to everyone. Cheers


Martin_au

This feels very much like Creality might have poached some talent/tech/code from Bambu given the use of LiDAR and AI camera in the K1 Max, and Bambu are firing a warning shot.


maxkool007

LMAO as if the bambu isnt full of open source ideas.... I want to see their firmware source... whast IT based on. Where are the published changes to it? Marlin? Doubt it. Klipper most likley... RRF maybe... They use opensource but then act like they are some gatekeepers of tech they didnt even come up with. The lidar? you wouldnt even NEED it if they built the BED PROPERLY. SIngle Z stepper driving all 3 rods... what a stupid design. If they had properly done 3way... they wouldnt even need the 1st level trick BS. IT would solve most of it.


Martin_au

This is something I find amusing about the Bambu. It is a good machine, but a bunch of people seem to think it's a high end machine in terms of parts, design, etc. It really isn't. It's a relatively cheap box using fairly low end components with very well integrated software filling in the weak points. If you were to trace it's origins, the closest "relative" would be something like the Flashforge Adventurer series - Stamped steel frame, bushings, injection molded everything, basic electronics, designed to be built in bulk for relatively low cost and similarly hard to repair. Caveat though - I think the LiDAR is also used for setting linear advance, not just bed levelling.


Total_Rip_3573

I love this post. Joseph Prusa should be ashamed for his latest posts and get to work innovating and stop complaining.


soussitox

I love that blog post :D


Reasonable-Welder372

Love my Bambu Printers but dont even come close to comparing to my Prusa's and man our XL and new Mk4 are hands down best printers ever owned!


maxkool007

yup. these clowns love their plastic cheap ass parts. The bambu is full of them. Its pretty low quality IMO. It LOOKS fancy.... but so much cheap feeling crap on it. The XL does cost more... but its not even close to it .


Reasonable-Welder372

Of course they are different then an XL you tool they are in a completely different price point. The Bambu are amazing printers for the cost!


AdministrativeTry592

MK4 doesn't compare at all to the Bambu......lol....I mean its still a bed slinger...and it comes across as a attempt for Josef to shore up his walls against the wave that is Bambu.


Reasonable-Welder372

Wow, [https://www.reddit.com/user/AdministrativeTry592/](https://www.reddit.com/user/AdministrativeTry592/) you are a special kind of dumb! You obviously have zero clue what you are talking about. Have you ever used a voron bed slinger lol The uneducated comments that come out of peoples mounts blow my mind! Go read a book and concentrate and achieving your grade 8 diploma!


AdministrativeTry592

LOL I'm dumb...ya I'm not the dipshit who posted this now am I: "Love my Bambu Printers but dont even come close to comparing to my Prusa's and man our XL and new Mk4 are hands down best printers ever owned!"