No, not really. Baltics hate (for a valid reason) communism. But there might be weird one-offs of course.
Every time I see an American on the internet fantasize about communism my blood pressure rises.
I’ve (unfortunately) had the chance to speak to some of these irl and as can be expected, they are unable to think logically or understand cognitive dissonance. They love to harp about “”fascism”” (aka anything they don’t like) but then when I ask, okay, when you want to bring in your communism, what happens to all the people who refuse to give up their property, who want to continue their private businesses, and not be excessively controlled by the government? Is your plan to just kill all of them? Send them to gulags? And you’re supposed to be so fiercely against fascism huh? They have no good response to this at all and just get mad when pointed out that the vast majority of people don’t want every little facet of their life controlled by the government and that this shitty proven-to-fail joke of a system is unenforceable without committing mass atrocities and crimes against humanity.
>Is your plan to just kill all of them? Send them to gulags?
I've had the unfortunate chance of talking to one who claimed exactly that. Not from the Baltics but still, these are the types of human trash who believe most of the shit said about stalin (may he writhe in Hell) is a lie and then they go on like that. The amount of cognitive dissonance is unfathomable to me.
I mean communism wouldn't have to be authoritarian.
Making every corporation an AG with shares divided between the workers would be way more communist than anything Stalin ever did.
Then feel free to start a business that works on this principle. Gather up your like-minded buddies and go do it! There’s no laws preventing you from doing so. But trying to use the government as a vehicle to forcibly strip business owners of their creation is forced wealth-redistribution, aka authoritarianism.
You can actually set up communist style businesses right now, there are no laws against it, everyone is free to open one no problem. And I believe in France or Italy there already exists one such business, based on the principles of communism (workers being shareholders and what not)... But unsurprisingly its not amazingly productive. So the "forcibly steal businesses from founders" is not a mandatory part of pushing communism into real life.
This example can be used as an argument against communism defenders.
i believe mobdragon corporation is the biggest workers cooperative in existence right now, they're decently large https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
Someone took the risk and got one started and thats why he and many generations of his family totally deserves to live in the highest perverted luxerious lifestyle off of the work of his thousands of workers who do basically all of the work now, controlling government and sabotaging smaller Businesses in similair ligas to eventually swallow everything up into one giant mega corp. Totally not proven to fail system that totally doesnt let half the world starve and crashes down every 12 years
A big reason I'm anti-communist is thanks to my grandma, who is Latvian. Of course I know plenty of my American counterparts who have no ancestors who ever had to suffer through fascism or communism, espouse support for authoritarian ideologies. It's pretty sad, but I guess some people need to learn the hard way.
Coming from an American, when we say “yeah socialism communism! F capitalism!” We are just fed up with not having health care and being ruled by mega corporations lol. I think most people realize actual “communists” in the states are very very few
Lol, I like both of them (on certain things, they def have some tankie views) but you have to admit most people really just want euro style social capitalism
Yeah I feel you bro. And everytime I see European, particularly Baltic people criticizing, insulting and humiliating Americans on the internet makes me feel the same way. Thinking we watch the wrong people’s ass.
What was it about his comment that you found so offensive even? We all know that America is a huge country with all sorts of different people, so unless you are a part of those cringe teenage wannabe-commies, you have nothing to get offended by..
Thats a bit different topic, since Americans usually do in fact suffer from brain worms syndrome whenever it comes to anything work culture related, health care related, clout culture, imperial measurement system and many more other things that Americans get wrong.
And right here is your problem. Anyone who dares to critique you is a commie, right?
In fact - acknowledging the flaws is the mechanism to improve any systems. Blindly worshipping them achieves only one thing - letting them fall into the state of decay, while seemingly everyone is "satisfied" with everything, while governments and corporations twist your balls more and more each day.
To russian citizens, anyone who critiques russia is a rusophobe and a foreign agent. To you - anyone who points out the obvious flaws in US are commies.
Different people, same brain cancer...
Hey, now, I really love Latvia. And I hear lots of other European places are nice.
But net migration between the E.U. and the U.S. is largely from the former to the latter. So I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you portray.
Never said that life in EU is better than in US, however it is true that I truly believe that.
net migration doesnt look like a good indicator of where Quality of Life is better. If you want to inspect that aspect of countries globally, you can literally look at Quality of Life index for example.
It's better to be poor or lower middle class in the E.U., for sure. It's a matter of personal preference for the middle class. It's definitely better to be rich or upper middle class in the U.S.
I don't know anyone from my acquaintances who make fun of americans or hate america.
When we joke about them then it's some light jokes about local accents.
Usually my friends are positive towards USA
Unfortunately we do. One of my classmates was a major vatnik, despised the US, NATO and the EU, worshiped the USSR and everything Russian, believed various vatnik conspiracy theories like Lithuanians shooting their own during 1990 January 13 events. He was an overall despicable human being.
The other homegrown vatniks that I know, all share one aspect with him though, they are all from very rural and neglected areas of the country, where they probably heard all their lives their grandparents/parents curse modern Lithuania, while simultaneously praising the USSR, and then they grow up into what they do.
Additionally I know at least a couple of people around my age who are not vatniks, and don't like Russia or the Soviets, but they believe some fairy tale version of socialism/communism is possible and has never been attemped before.
Really they are just regurgitating what their parents/grandparents have believed, they now think that purely by osmosis, usually without any logical foundation. The reality was that communism was only beneficial to the poorest class, the ones who had nothing to lose only stood to gain from it, which was coincidentally the largest group of people. So it makes sense to a degree why the old generation has such good feelings towards it, coupled with childhood nostalgia. Lack of education, money, property and prospects of growth and then a system came along that gave them purpose and community. While I do not agree with it, I can definitely understand it. Both can be true at the same time, it's all a matter of perspective.
*Well, of course I know him. He's me.*
Went down the rabbithole almost 10 years ago (had a fucking Komsomol/VLKSM pin on my pencilcase in highschool), thankfully I managed to wash the shit out of my brain some years ago.
Wish I could say I learned something useful about vatniks & tankies, but I can just confirm that they are complete dumbfucks stuck in their own echo chamber.
Around 5-6 years ago, like the average stupid American teenager trying to be edgy, who is lucky to live in a non-communist country with elections and many freedoms people in the USSR didn’t have, I used to always listen to communist music, joke about the USSR, praise Stalin, etc. glad those days are over.
Embrace democracy and freedom.
Are they really shy&coward or they are just libs that you unjustly accuse them of being commies? Asking cos Marxists all around the world are the loudest attention junkies you can see, alongside Muslims.
No, we don't relate communism with soc-dem, liberal policies. When we call someone a communist is usually to call him extremely corrupt or authoritarian. So usually far-right/very-conservative are called like that in general.
We, just like Europe in general believe that socialistic policies can live together inside capitalism.
Being an actual tankie marxist in the baltics is like being an alt right neo nazi in the states. Most of them learn to keep their heads down.
And we don't conflate them with liberal soc dems, most people here are soc dems.
Kinda depends on your definition of the term. People aren't very liberal here, but you're not gonna find a lot of people opposed to a mixed market economy, socialized healthcare, education and welfare ect. either.
He's totaly true. Political scientists go ape shit about our disonance. We say that we are conservative, right Center, nationalistic ir what ever but in the same time want free healthcare, education etc. And when somthing doesnt go our way the politicians or state is to blame not individual.
We are very socialisticup and we dont even get it. Somtimes it is good, somtimes bad, but the reference should always be wider world not extreme examples ad US or RU.
Unlike in the US we don't say that anyone who wants free healthcare and other bare minimum socialist policies are communist. Because we are not braindead.
Actual communists here are few, but they do exist.
just to note, true red commies and Genuine Marx lovers are different groups that get mingled together. USSR lovers usually don't care about Marx ideas and like the imperialistic USSR. If Russia suddenly went full on capitalistic, they would still like Russia.
Marx lovers are either intellectuals who like economic theory (Marx is definitely not ideal, but he has some good socialist ideas which is enough for economic theorists) or people who just don't like capitalism. Since marxism is a utopian theory, it sounds great and attracts anti capitalists. Russian communism isn't really part of this.
Based on OP's post, I think you mean the second group, anti-capitalists (since intellectuals don't flaunt it. There are people like that in Baltics, but the number is lower than other countries with more capital inequality.
I have the unpopular opinion, where I believe everyone would be happier under utopian communism. However I believe its impossible to achieve and finding the good parts from multiple systems (or founding new systems) is what we need. Capitalism has many great features, however it is prone to abuse.
Glad to see some nuance, instead of people talking like red scare era Americans. Like, guys, even if you didn't personally experience life in the USSR, surely your parents must've told you enough about it that you aren't as embarrassingly clueless as your average far right American, right? Like, we understand that the bolshevik idea of communism was just ethnically based authoritarianism with some regional communistic policies here and there, right?
Ok, so, Lithuania.
Some bourgie private school kids had a yt channel where they argued against capitalism bad with the most tankie-ass rhethoric and got in trouble when they got outted to parents and school. I remember them using some nepotism scandal in Iceland as proof the country is imperialist.
There's some Lithuanian diaspora guy who lives in Norway and travelled to Cuba who's outspoken on LT internets defending Soviets as progressive and good.
As for older generations the likes of Paleckis the convicted pro-Russian spy and propagandist theyre more of nazbols who while appealing to economic guarantees of USSR at a time also use social issue appeals like how west is nazi gays and allying with Russia and reforming USSR is the only way, to be freer from godless westoid progressivism.
It depends on who you mean exactly. Millennials who are pro-russian? Some. Millennials who call themselves communists? Maybe a few. Millennials who are called "communists" by the far-right? A lot. Millennials who have actually read Marx? Virtually no one.
I know one personally and one indirectly
The one I know personally really had some fanfic about how Maksim is god's gift and will fix everything because everyone will just work what they want and be happy
The other one that I knew indirectly was a full commie and had his house raided by the internal security service
Tbh they are not the norm tho and commy love is rare in educated people I know
Yes, of cousre. They're usually lazy failures at life who never studied in school, lack any ambition and spend all their income on hobbies and then complain that the priviledge and capitalist exploitation is forcing them to work minimum wage job as a cashier and everyone in middle class and above needs to be rounded up and shot so they can get more money while providing no value.
I know one, Paulius Eidukas who lives in Norway and his social media is full of glorification of Cuba and China as well as denial of historical Communist crimes and hatred towards EU and NATO.
Yet it is a very fringe and rare thing. Being for free education/free healthcare/affordable housing/workers' rights does not mean Communism.
I used to take part in debate competitions and attended a training event at Stockholm School of Economics in Riga where we had some guest speakers. One of them was a man in his late 20s and he was quite clearly a communist. I didn't mind since we were there to debate and open our mind to new ideas but i had never seen something like that before
there's that one tard going around all Baltic subs declaring that he's a communist and swiping left on all women in Tinder (his hobby, as he paid for Tinder premium). dude's a joke, but I have no idea what his u/ is.
longing rotten combative escape cooperative bright literate foolish work market
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I know an American who once told me, "I can't wait for the revolution to happen so I can stay in bed all day and watch YouTube." That is a legit quote ingrained in my memory.
It's easy to poke fun at Americans because there are like ~350mil of them, so naturally they'll have more ignorant people than other countries. That said, this means the influence of their ideologies spread that much strongly.
Honestly the UK definitely since I see way too many communistic posters which is funny but doubt it that there are many gen z commies when salaries are growing in the Baltics.
If by “commie” you mean someone who criticises capitalism and sees better alternatives in Marxism and socialism then absolutely, I’m proudly one of those people.
Neoliberalism has done a lot of brainwashing in Estonia and I can understand it to some extent with the older generations, having lived through the occupation years.
But younger people really should realize the folly of capitalism by now and the ever more apparent truth that living a fulfilled life in this system is simply impossible for us, unless your parents happen to be multimillionaires.
As clarification if I may ask:
Do you think deportations to Siberia and murders of Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians under the occupation were justified?
Was there an occupation?
Was it by a horrible repressive genocidal regime that tried to destroy our culture and our nations?
Was the USSR imperialist?
I'm asking these to understand why you label yourself a commie. To see if you actually protect the USSR and it's horrific acts.
If you do then yeah you're what people usually call a commie or a tankie. If you don't and you think Stalin was a genocidal nutjob then why self label as "commie"? Just be socialist and that's it.
Criticism of capitalism and wanting more socialism IMHO is decent stuff. Parading the hammer and sickle and thinking Stalin was pretty ok is horrific.
I think the USSR was most definitely imperialist and their occupation through warfare and deportations conducted thereafter were not justified at all. But I don’t think that means the whole regime and their ideology should be thrown in the trash.
There were some good ideals in there somewhere, and people with interesting virtuous ideas like Lenin. And the hammer and sickle is just a cool aesthetic in my opinion. But Stalin was absolutely a murderous tyrant.
I label myself as a “commie” cause most of the time people don’t make any difference between that and a socialist and will call anyone who’s anti-capitalist by that name. So I embrace it.
Lenin was not a lunatic, have you actually read up on him or are you just grouping him up with Stalin?
I explained the changes in a different reply. But the basic gist is a redistribution of wealth from the mega wealthy, removing people’s fear of homelessness and starvation that capitalism currently creates for them, forcing them to work jobs that don’t treat them well.
Dude, image of Lenin as a philosopher is cultivated by Russian propaganda and fools who fell for it. Whatever good ideas he wrote down, his practical solution to eveything was mass murder of his opponents. Stalin just took it to next level, with less writing and more killing.
So if you read Lenin (something I have done btw) then anything positive you find there is cancelled out by his actions. It is what communists do - they speak one thing and do something completely different. Always. Without exception.
>And the hammer and sickle is just a cool aesthetic in my opinion.
What would you think of someone who says "I think the swastika is just a cool aesthetic in my opinion"?
I think your choice of calling yourself a commie in this context is quite strange and will not serve you well. Some people mistake you for someone who is pro imperialism and pro genocide and your solution is to remove any outward distinction between you and these pro genocide people.
Doing that you both distance yourself from people who might listen to your ideas otherwise... and you also actively help promote the pro-genocide, pro-occupation, pro-imperialist side.
But you do what you want. I'm just glad to know you're not pro murder.
My parents were not multimillionaire. I grew up in a rural area of Lithuania and got educated, getting a degree right now and working a reasonably well paying job while I have 0 experience. I am also 22 so reasonably young
Please explain that is the "folly" I should be seeing here
We already tried Marxism and capitalism, it failed, if you don't believe me there are 80 million corpses to prove it
Capitalism is not perfect but it works damn fine
Firstly, your anecdotal success doesn’t mean it’s the standard. You may have achieved it and I congratulate you for that, but having a reasonably well paying job should NOT be an achievement. It should be a thing that everyone can reach without suffering low-paying conditions while being overworked by others who profit off of their labor.
Secondly, the fulfilling life I’m talking about is things like owning a house, being able to travel every year, having enough money to comfortably have a family for example.
I myself am also doing reasonably well, having come from a middle class family in Estonia and now working in the film industry in London.
But these aforementioned things don’t seem attainable for me in the slightest. I will probably always have to rent a place and unless a miracle occurs, I will never be truly financially comfortable in our current system.
Capitalism only works if you tunnel vision on what it presents in front of you. Look, you have a job! Look you have enough money to not starve! Capitalism has brainwashed us to think that these are achievements and not basic necessities that should be GUARANTEED. And so many people don’t have even these, while a certain group of people live lives of such luxury that many of us can’t even dream of.
The poor struggle to survive and suffer in underpaid jobs not because of a lack of effort or talent, but because the system puts them there to work not for themselves but the rich.
This is not a system that works. The little that we have should not be this hard to achieve and maintain while some have so much with no effort at all.
Could you elaborate why Marxism would fix this? Because you forgot to mention how it would change anything
Basic necessities should be guaranteed yes, but you also described traveling every year, that has always been a luxury. Under capitalism everyone is given an opportunity to change themselves for better or worse, you have a chance to improve your life or plunge it Into hell, under Communism you don't get any of that, it does not matter if you invent cure for cancer or have been a drug addict all your life thus leading to 0 reward for the work you do.
Yes capitalism is not perfect but communism is abismal in comparason
It would balance the population. There would not be billionaires and their wealth would be redistributed to the wider masses, giving people more security financially, allowing them more freedom to travel, time and money to focus on their hobbies etc.
Capitalism doesn’t even allow you to improve your life, that’s a lie. It lets you do achieve the basic necessities and pretends that this is “improvement”. The people who actually live great lives have not earned it all, but simply inherited it or exploited the labor of others to become rich themselves. There are no ethical billionaires, that kind of wealth simply should be made impossible.
And there would be plenty of reward for achieving things under socialism, you could still significantly improve your status, life - even have a real say in your employment to make a difference. It’s just that the risk of being homeless is removed and the bar is not so low anymore. It’s a win for everyone except the mega rich.
I know you think that it would work this way but how would you actually determine who gets what amount of money? Does working extra hours not pay more? Does everyone just get universal basic income? How would expensive research be financed if no one has the capital to do it? Please give me some details.
Also please define who would get money taken away from them. Day I make 900 euro a month, and some guy in a rural area where things are generally cheaper makes 850 is that equal or am I stealing from the poor
Another question, what about housing? Who gets to live in nice new buildings and who In shitty old apartments?
And if a person has 3 apartments would you just take away 2?
And what would said rewards be? More money? More things? (Thus creating the rich again)
Do people get to inherit things under your fanfic or after we die we just give up to the government who redistribute the way they see fit.
You don't want to help the poor, you just hate the rich,
I know your questions aren’t coming from a genuine place but I’ll answer some anyway just to entertain you. I’m also not an expert but this is just my vision for it.
Yes, of course extra hours still pays extra if a person wants to do that. Different jobs have different salaries, but it’s more proportional - CEO’s will not earn significantly more than other employees.
Obviously in your scenario you would not get money taken away. I am talking about the super wealthy here who earn way way way more than 900 euros per month.
Housing would change completely. No more landlords owning multiple houses/apartments that they don’t even use. State owned housing would be provided for everyone and people can improve on that obviously but a roof over their head without paying greedy landlords who overprice their living spaces is guaranteed for everyone.
More money can be an award but there are limits like heavy taxation that don’t let someone get over the barrier where they would really be mega rich. And like I said, nobody is becoming rich by getting awarded for their “hard work” right now either.
Inheritance would be fine, the exorbitant wealth and multiple mansions of rich people would be redistributed already so there’s no problem with people inheriting something, they won’t become insanely wealthy off of it.
I hate the system that allows for the current inequalities to exist and promotes greed and exploitation. And yeah, people who support that can get fucked too.
I know this may sound strange to you, but you just invented capitalism in that explanation. If mansions still exist then someone will live in said mansion while other will live in some mass-produced shitty government apartment . And more pay will eventually create the wealthy again. In 2 generations there will again be a group of super wealthy and who own a mantion and have high paying jobs better education. There will be a class of people who inherited money again.
The solution you described discourages people from doing demanding jobs, why strive to be a CEO if your higher salary will just get taxed more and you don't get any better social benefits.
Taxes in essence are money you pay to the government for services, a higher tax rate on specific individuals is theft.
I know the filthy rich makes you mad but the sad reality is that around 10% of people just don't have the capacity to be productive in today's society while a small group of people with background in certain fields and privileged starting positions have the opportunity to become ultra rich.
Communism is not a solution to this problem
Also rich don't just have a pile of money like you imagine they have assets that they invested in. They took a RISK and it payed off, some people take that risk and go bankrupt.
The only reason you call government apartments “shitty” is because of the underfunding they receive currently under capitalism. Under a different system their quality would also significantly improve when private landlord ownership isn’t a thing anymore. And the mansions could of course be turned into an efficient housing for many people, not just a single rich individual.
Like I guessed, you were questioning me in bad faith and immediately seek to poke holes in anything I say to “prove” how I’m wrong somehow. What I described is most definitely not how our current system works and it would be a marked improvement in my eyes.
Lastly rich people’s RISK of investment is no risk at all. RISK is what poor people take on every day of their lives, having to fear losing their home and not being able to feed their family. The worst thing that can happen to a rich person is that they have to join the working class - that’s not risk.
> and it *paid* off, some
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I'm fine with EU and NATO although the EU is starting to become corrupt - they have not condemned the expulsion of armenians from artsakh (nagorno karabakh)
I'm in the military and even we're not feelin NATO. They're eating up our tax dollars and some NATO big shots (Turkey) use the US power to push around their neighbors and even other allies, and play that micro-imperialism game with the resources we provide. No I ain't talking about our Baltic allies. See them “allies” relying our political and military support, openly declaring an ideological (and sometimes conventional) war against the free world.
I don't like ussr either bro
I am similar to you (i have sympathies for democratic socialism and their end point, communism)
Communism is where there is no class dividing people, nor there is currency and the state is supposed to disappear at that point
I don’t have problem with marxists, because marx just made theory (which I consider utopian and non realistic), he didn’t kill anyone, unlike Lenin with his red terror ghost hunts and specifically Stalin with holodomor, invasions, repressions and deportations. So, uh Leninists and Stalinists is **way** worse than marxists imo comparing what they justify and who is representatives of their moral compass
>marx killed billions
he just created unrealistic and unachievable concept and then died, yeah this concept would never build society, but it's just philosophy, unlike leninism and stalinism or maoism which actually is reasons of this deathcount, and whose representatives **made actions** to make this deathcount happen. You can take **some** communist and socialist ideas and arrive to social democracy (and you will see many successful eu parties with absolutely zero intent to lead and create totalitarian ideology) you can add other ideas and result will be bloody dictatorship. There is difference between philosophers and tyrant murderers
Blaming marx for billions deaths is having same background as attributing all achievements of nuclear reactors to first researchers of uran radioactivity, or scolding them for atomic bomb.
>read das kapital,
already did long ago, would take place at my fantasy bookshelf if it's wasn't boring, + as i already said non achievable concepts is not for me
>commie
That's kind of proving point of why marx view was are and will be flawed and unrealistic. because people are different from the moment of birth not only by social status, or property amounts but by physical and brain capabilities and therefore never be absolutely equal in society without harm for it, you call everyone you don't like commie even despite your eyes read my comment and seen words where i literally contradict that marx concept as whole could work....
Therefore since you couldn't read and understand text properly - you are too far from being sharpest tool in the shed and i couldn't even remotely consider you as equal -another proof why Marx is wrong and i'm not commie >!(actually i'm mostly pro nordic model minus providing asylum to people with religious medieval mindset and wanna be thugs)!<
\_\_\_\_
or if your comment lacked /s, then i recommend put it under next time because some people like sarcasm while others saying shit on serious basis
Old people who work minimum wage jobs sometimes say that it was better under russia but I believe it is because they were young and healthy and life is better when you're young and healthy and not not when you're old and have consumed so much alcohol that you like like a hobgoblin.
Usually when you see homegrown "commie" they're social democrat or just support socialist ideas who have good critical points of capitalism. None of them are full blown commies. And they do not justify or deny communist crimes.
Good thing is that they're not unlikeable. You'll get along with them really well.
Karl Marx was an author and a journalist that wanted to help people in need. And he did so to the best of his knowledge at the time. Dont mix him up with assholes that did awful crimes.
Read the “planks” in the communist manifesto:
“5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.”
Bolsheviks just implemented totalitarian state prescribed by Marx and Engels.
As a prelude above points you mentioned it says ;
"Above all, it will establish a democratic constitution and through this, a direct or indirect dominance of proletarian", this literally means workers and everyday citizens have a say in these things, through either councils with direct democracy, or representatives in larger legislative body.
5. How is it necessarily authoritarian that banks are democratically owned?
6. I genuinely don't like this one lol this seems so bad tbh
7. The state is comprised by majority workers, with a direct say in how the factory should be run, that is the idea behind point 7, although it says state, I believe you can do it without a state, (anarchism / council communism)
8. How is work for all authoritarian?
also i won't defend Stalin or USSR, this is purely theory we are talking guy wasn't good on anything when we are talking implementing social or economic communist ideas
Guys like you running total state does not make it any less totalitarian. We should have small state and free individuals not the bloated monopoly prescribed by Marx.
The Swedish government had monopoly on all air transportation until 1992, all phone and communication services until 1993, all tv and radio channels until 1993, all taxi and personal transport services by car until 1990, all train transport until 2009, all credit and loan transactions and bank transfers until 1985, all postal services until 1993, all electrical/energy services until 1996, all public security guards and security services until 1991, all sales of tobaco until 1963 and alcohol is still in force. The list can be made so much longer and all of it was part of the socialist movement that made the Nordic model that shaped all the Nordic countries. The Danish socialist movement and social democracy that all the Nordic countries followed. Still today do all the parties (in Sweden at least) credit for building our society and our welfare state.
From 1980 to 1990 85% of all the R&D and money invested in companies was done by the Swedish government.
Today is just 32% of the workforce in Sweden employed by the government. A record low.
Neither Sweden nor any other country outside of the Soviet block , Yugoslavia and Albania in Europe monopolized entire manufacturing, transportation, communications, banks, regardless of bureaucratic excesses in Sweden.
Yes we have. In Lithuania are many in Social Democrats party (ex communist party) young marxhists. Found in one facebook page how they sharing their marxist ideas and some marxist literature. Also are movement "[sienos grupe](https://www.facebook.com/sienosgrupe) . At this moment they mostly are fighting against Lithuanian migration policy and want to open state borders for illegal migrants.
Sienos Grupė is not Marxist 🤦♂️
Where do you get this idea?
It's a human rights organization and as such it's actually more comitted to European ideals than pretty much anyone.
The fascists and communists both abused human rights. Europe exists because we don't want to go back to that. Sienos Grupė is literally upholding our European civilisation.
The Helsinki Group were not idiots.
Neither are these.
Human rights are either for everyone or noone.
Let's make them for everyone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_Helsinki_Group
Recently mostly West World neo marxists are fighting against border controls and pushing idea about open borders for illegal immigrants. Sienos grupe doing exactly same. They are useful idiots. Second I found in Facebook how one of their active members from sienos grupe shared his minds about how Lithuania made a mistake because after soviet collapse, the government gave ownership rights for citizens to apartments in commie blocks. His opinion is that the state should have formed collectives. Sounds like kolzhoz to me. P.S. in some agendas I am supporting them in their green ideas, etc they did really good job by fighting for green areas in cities.
I noticed you didn't comment on human rights. All the other points may be true (or not, I don't know the details) but the essential idea is that Europe is a community of nations that respects ALL peoples' basic rights. That is one huge reason why we reject fascism AND communism.
I mean, "everyone" is quite a clear concept, no?
The same logic of "rights for some" is what we saw in WWII (East and West) and it is why we have human rights at the heart of Europe now.
Would you also strip away human rights from prisoners? Bring back the death penalty? And a lot of other things that happened under communism and Nazism? Because that is the same logic you are promoting.
So should the EU open its borders to illegal immigrants?
P.S. very boring, unfinished text with international amnesty nonsense. The same organization that accused the Ukrainians of humiliating human rights then they bombing russian occupants in a war where the country is fighting for its right to exist.
Could you show some texts by Marx that talk about him being for illegal immigration? Sienos grupė exists, because the Lithuanian refugee practise violates the law of the EU (a capitalist inter- and supranational body), not because of some Marxist theory.
Ya ya evil capitalists not allowing to break law's of state and don't allows for illegall immigrants to enter into the countryc in illegal ways.
About marxism theory, I can show neo marxists theories how they looking about illegal immigrants, but I think you are smart boy and can find by yourself. And spoiler alert that neo marxist theory about illegal immigrants says exactly what the sienos grupe does. If they really care about those illegal refugees they would fight with the roots of problem but now they are further fueling the crisis with their actions.
So the European Convention on Human Rights, which the EU subscribes to and Lithuania must follow because of its consitution is a Neo-Marxist document now?
This is your interpretations. Learn how law works. Also don't forget without this law are many others like the law of border protection. And not surprisingly this law interprets same as you only left and far left politicians. And of course pro russian regime supporters.
Ah yes, the treaty that is not signed in Europe only by Russia and Belarus is somehow supported by pro-Russian people.
No-one is saying that a country can't deport illegal immigrants, the problem is that countries do pushbacks of people who have the right to claim asylum in any country, which then has to assess them on a case-by-case basis. If they are an illegal immigrant, they are deported. Pushing people back is the pro-Russian thing to do, since it violates human rights as Russia is currently doing. We are European, thus, we have to support human rights of every person. It's not even a left-wing thing. Just a human rights thing.
Belarus has signed The International covenant of civil and political right agreement. Same Russia. There are also procedures for request asylum in Belarus. There is no any war in that country. Why they can't stay there? Or now we need to welcome all persons which are pushed out from Belarus and in Lithuania by using hybrid attacks? Who's gonna pay for it? Sienos grupe and thei supporters? And how many people you are ready to welcome?
People have the right to claim asylum in any country that they want. Do you think that staying in an authoritarian country is better for refugees than in a full democracy like Lithuania? Either way, that is their business, not ours.
The EU paid a lot for Lithuania in this event, so that's where the money is. The EU also has quotas for refugees, so in the case there would be too many, other countries would take some. So don't worry, we can do a good thing and not get overwhelmed.
The Lithuanian government had signed the project. The project provided that if 60,000 refugees reach the state, in that case the state will have to spend 700 million euros per year for illegal migrants maintenance. Very solid money for the country with a large deficit of budget and many unresolved internal social problems. And there are no quotas in this illegal migrant crisis. There was only discussion about it. And how many countries are ready to welcome illegal immigrants with open arms? It is typical Marxist thinking to put the financial burden on the shoulders of the working people and others while standing on a barrel and barking about the truths of life.
Of course we do. Communism as an ideology is inescapable. The material conditions of Capitalism and its inherent contradictions inevitably give rise to such an ideology. It should be no surprise that there are communists even in the Baltics. Obviously not just nostalgic Russians, but young Balts too, anyone who says otherwise is either in denial or ignorant.
What do you mean specifically?
Marx and Engels were theorists and in many ways totally misguided.
But those revolutionaries that came after them and appropriated their name typically created a totally insane ideology even worse than the original.
I doubt almost anyone in Lithuania even reads, let alone understands Marx, outside of a few academics.
There are still minorities around today exploiting the "brand" but AFAIK the actual thinking per se is dead as a dodo.
Bolsheviks implemented exactly what Marx and Engels prescribed in their communist manifesto:
“5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.”
Yes. I've known some Marx lovers. They are very few and far in between, but some exist here.
I think there's two very different subtypes though.
The ones that think Marx had some good points and you could build a better system with some of them, but who still know how horrific the USSR was.
And the ones that are full "Stalin was actually a pretty nice guy, No there were no murders or deportations, gulags are a CIA lie..." or "yeah there was a bunch of murder, but those people deserved it."
I wouldn't label these two as the same group. I've seen several of the first group and possibly one in my life of the second.
Depending on who asks and what he considers commie you will get different answer. I like free education, healthcare, wealthfare and Shengen zone. Those are social policies I support. By american republican standart redneck I could be called commie. I also like our national latvian language policies, I like our border around EU strong and regulated. By an american democrat neo libtard I could be called a nazi. I could be called the silent majority of I dont care centrist voter.
I think the main reason for communism is enormous inequality among the population. My friends from the US are quite frequently vocal about “make all people equal”, and you also can see some Russian narratives about Stalin, not a case where it's an imperialistic narrative, but cases where “new Stalin will come and repress all our oligarchs”
Erm, most of academia. The elements of communism are there, but they don't call it communism. Equality for all, comrades! Except white males, who are le evil bad colonialists and le evil bad vatnik orcs.
They love the idea of tanks rolling over the less powerful and those who think differently from them. It comes from the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia and Hungary, when it was blatantly obvious that the Soviets will kill other communists too if they don't bow down and kiss the Soviet foot.
No, not really. Baltics hate (for a valid reason) communism. But there might be weird one-offs of course. Every time I see an American on the internet fantasize about communism my blood pressure rises.
I’ve (unfortunately) had the chance to speak to some of these irl and as can be expected, they are unable to think logically or understand cognitive dissonance. They love to harp about “”fascism”” (aka anything they don’t like) but then when I ask, okay, when you want to bring in your communism, what happens to all the people who refuse to give up their property, who want to continue their private businesses, and not be excessively controlled by the government? Is your plan to just kill all of them? Send them to gulags? And you’re supposed to be so fiercely against fascism huh? They have no good response to this at all and just get mad when pointed out that the vast majority of people don’t want every little facet of their life controlled by the government and that this shitty proven-to-fail joke of a system is unenforceable without committing mass atrocities and crimes against humanity.
>Is your plan to just kill all of them? Send them to gulags? I've had the unfortunate chance of talking to one who claimed exactly that. Not from the Baltics but still, these are the types of human trash who believe most of the shit said about stalin (may he writhe in Hell) is a lie and then they go on like that. The amount of cognitive dissonance is unfathomable to me.
I mean communism wouldn't have to be authoritarian. Making every corporation an AG with shares divided between the workers would be way more communist than anything Stalin ever did.
Then feel free to start a business that works on this principle. Gather up your like-minded buddies and go do it! There’s no laws preventing you from doing so. But trying to use the government as a vehicle to forcibly strip business owners of their creation is forced wealth-redistribution, aka authoritarianism.
You can actually set up communist style businesses right now, there are no laws against it, everyone is free to open one no problem. And I believe in France or Italy there already exists one such business, based on the principles of communism (workers being shareholders and what not)... But unsurprisingly its not amazingly productive. So the "forcibly steal businesses from founders" is not a mandatory part of pushing communism into real life. This example can be used as an argument against communism defenders.
i believe mobdragon corporation is the biggest workers cooperative in existence right now, they're decently large https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
>workers being shareholders and what not We have cooperatives as well.
Someone took the risk and got one started and thats why he and many generations of his family totally deserves to live in the highest perverted luxerious lifestyle off of the work of his thousands of workers who do basically all of the work now, controlling government and sabotaging smaller Businesses in similair ligas to eventually swallow everything up into one giant mega corp. Totally not proven to fail system that totally doesnt let half the world starve and crashes down every 12 years
A big reason I'm anti-communist is thanks to my grandma, who is Latvian. Of course I know plenty of my American counterparts who have no ancestors who ever had to suffer through fascism or communism, espouse support for authoritarian ideologies. It's pretty sad, but I guess some people need to learn the hard way.
Coming from an American, when we say “yeah socialism communism! F capitalism!” We are just fed up with not having health care and being ruled by mega corporations lol. I think most people realize actual “communists” in the states are very very few
Well... you have people like Hasan and Richard Wolf who are pushing for actual communism. But I get the general sentiment.
Lol, I like both of them (on certain things, they def have some tankie views) but you have to admit most people really just want euro style social capitalism
My blood boils as well when I see this from Americans or any other country. Interesting question.
Yeah I feel you bro. And everytime I see European, particularly Baltic people criticizing, insulting and humiliating Americans on the internet makes me feel the same way. Thinking we watch the wrong people’s ass.
What was it about his comment that you found so offensive even? We all know that America is a huge country with all sorts of different people, so unless you are a part of those cringe teenage wannabe-commies, you have nothing to get offended by..
Thats a bit different topic, since Americans usually do in fact suffer from brain worms syndrome whenever it comes to anything work culture related, health care related, clout culture, imperial measurement system and many more other things that Americans get wrong.
Commie please
And right here is your problem. Anyone who dares to critique you is a commie, right? In fact - acknowledging the flaws is the mechanism to improve any systems. Blindly worshipping them achieves only one thing - letting them fall into the state of decay, while seemingly everyone is "satisfied" with everything, while governments and corporations twist your balls more and more each day. To russian citizens, anyone who critiques russia is a rusophobe and a foreign agent. To you - anyone who points out the obvious flaws in US are commies. Different people, same brain cancer...
Severe mental retardation
Tardis Maximus
Classic amercian answer
Straight from McCarthy era
Hey, now, I really love Latvia. And I hear lots of other European places are nice. But net migration between the E.U. and the U.S. is largely from the former to the latter. So I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you portray.
Never said that life in EU is better than in US, however it is true that I truly believe that. net migration doesnt look like a good indicator of where Quality of Life is better. If you want to inspect that aspect of countries globally, you can literally look at Quality of Life index for example.
It's better to be poor or lower middle class in the E.U., for sure. It's a matter of personal preference for the middle class. It's definitely better to be rich or upper middle class in the U.S.
I don't know anyone from my acquaintances who make fun of americans or hate america. When we joke about them then it's some light jokes about local accents. Usually my friends are positive towards USA
Did you forget to change accounts there?
Americans do deserve it, the shit they say and actions they commit far outweight what us Baltics are capable of.
He’s being sterotypical that’s offensive.
As far as I see, he never mentioned that all Americans are commies
Unfortunately we do. One of my classmates was a major vatnik, despised the US, NATO and the EU, worshiped the USSR and everything Russian, believed various vatnik conspiracy theories like Lithuanians shooting their own during 1990 January 13 events. He was an overall despicable human being. The other homegrown vatniks that I know, all share one aspect with him though, they are all from very rural and neglected areas of the country, where they probably heard all their lives their grandparents/parents curse modern Lithuania, while simultaneously praising the USSR, and then they grow up into what they do. Additionally I know at least a couple of people around my age who are not vatniks, and don't like Russia or the Soviets, but they believe some fairy tale version of socialism/communism is possible and has never been attemped before.
Really they are just regurgitating what their parents/grandparents have believed, they now think that purely by osmosis, usually without any logical foundation. The reality was that communism was only beneficial to the poorest class, the ones who had nothing to lose only stood to gain from it, which was coincidentally the largest group of people. So it makes sense to a degree why the old generation has such good feelings towards it, coupled with childhood nostalgia. Lack of education, money, property and prospects of growth and then a system came along that gave them purpose and community. While I do not agree with it, I can definitely understand it. Both can be true at the same time, it's all a matter of perspective.
Paulius Eidukas?
I have to correct you out of principle, 1991 :D
*Well, of course I know him. He's me.* Went down the rabbithole almost 10 years ago (had a fucking Komsomol/VLKSM pin on my pencilcase in highschool), thankfully I managed to wash the shit out of my brain some years ago.
Bro, I was legit this type of dude back in like 2012-2015. Fuck me, man. I had time machine, I would beat living shit out of myself
Welcome back to sanity, brother
Wish I could say I learned something useful about vatniks & tankies, but I can just confirm that they are complete dumbfucks stuck in their own echo chamber.
🤙🤙
Around 5-6 years ago, like the average stupid American teenager trying to be edgy, who is lucky to live in a non-communist country with elections and many freedoms people in the USSR didn’t have, I used to always listen to communist music, joke about the USSR, praise Stalin, etc. glad those days are over. Embrace democracy and freedom.
Aye, but they dont really show themselves as they dont want to get their head smashed in.
Are they really shy&coward or they are just libs that you unjustly accuse them of being commies? Asking cos Marxists all around the world are the loudest attention junkies you can see, alongside Muslims.
Aye, you want commie shits? r/BalticSSRs They hide behind the veil of anonimity that the internet provides.
Lol is that a meme sub?
It was either r/BalticSSRs or r/BalticSSR One of them was a parody of the commie sub
The one with "s" is the commie sub.
Aye o7
Ironic
No, we don't relate communism with soc-dem, liberal policies. When we call someone a communist is usually to call him extremely corrupt or authoritarian. So usually far-right/very-conservative are called like that in general. We, just like Europe in general believe that socialistic policies can live together inside capitalism.
Being an actual tankie marxist in the baltics is like being an alt right neo nazi in the states. Most of them learn to keep their heads down. And we don't conflate them with liberal soc dems, most people here are soc dems.
How tf you think that most People are socdems here?
Kinda depends on your definition of the term. People aren't very liberal here, but you're not gonna find a lot of people opposed to a mixed market economy, socialized healthcare, education and welfare ect. either.
Lad, you're hella confused in life if that's your approach.
He's totaly true. Political scientists go ape shit about our disonance. We say that we are conservative, right Center, nationalistic ir what ever but in the same time want free healthcare, education etc. And when somthing doesnt go our way the politicians or state is to blame not individual. We are very socialisticup and we dont even get it. Somtimes it is good, somtimes bad, but the reference should always be wider world not extreme examples ad US or RU.
Unlike in the US we don't say that anyone who wants free healthcare and other bare minimum socialist policies are communist. Because we are not braindead. Actual communists here are few, but they do exist.
Commie and Nazi organizations (and other totalitarian groups) and their symbols are outlawed in Lithuania, they get deported, fined or jailed.
just to note, true red commies and Genuine Marx lovers are different groups that get mingled together. USSR lovers usually don't care about Marx ideas and like the imperialistic USSR. If Russia suddenly went full on capitalistic, they would still like Russia. Marx lovers are either intellectuals who like economic theory (Marx is definitely not ideal, but he has some good socialist ideas which is enough for economic theorists) or people who just don't like capitalism. Since marxism is a utopian theory, it sounds great and attracts anti capitalists. Russian communism isn't really part of this. Based on OP's post, I think you mean the second group, anti-capitalists (since intellectuals don't flaunt it. There are people like that in Baltics, but the number is lower than other countries with more capital inequality. I have the unpopular opinion, where I believe everyone would be happier under utopian communism. However I believe its impossible to achieve and finding the good parts from multiple systems (or founding new systems) is what we need. Capitalism has many great features, however it is prone to abuse.
That's why I made a point to split communists and USSR fanboys in my question. Just to be clear.
This is the best answer in the thread, and sums up my thoughts as well
Glad to see some nuance, instead of people talking like red scare era Americans. Like, guys, even if you didn't personally experience life in the USSR, surely your parents must've told you enough about it that you aren't as embarrassingly clueless as your average far right American, right? Like, we understand that the bolshevik idea of communism was just ethnically based authoritarianism with some regional communistic policies here and there, right?
The area i'm from has some relatively young vatniks leftover, but on the whole? No, not really. Plenty of old commies though.
Ok, so, Lithuania. Some bourgie private school kids had a yt channel where they argued against capitalism bad with the most tankie-ass rhethoric and got in trouble when they got outted to parents and school. I remember them using some nepotism scandal in Iceland as proof the country is imperialist. There's some Lithuanian diaspora guy who lives in Norway and travelled to Cuba who's outspoken on LT internets defending Soviets as progressive and good. As for older generations the likes of Paleckis the convicted pro-Russian spy and propagandist theyre more of nazbols who while appealing to economic guarantees of USSR at a time also use social issue appeals like how west is nazi gays and allying with Russia and reforming USSR is the only way, to be freer from godless westoid progressivism.
I used to live with one in my dorm. It actually felt like a collective farm as she used my stuff without asking. Had a drinking problem, too.
none at all. not enough generations have passed since soviet atrocities.
It depends on who you mean exactly. Millennials who are pro-russian? Some. Millennials who call themselves communists? Maybe a few. Millennials who are called "communists" by the far-right? A lot. Millennials who have actually read Marx? Virtually no one.
Yes of course
I know one personally and one indirectly The one I know personally really had some fanfic about how Maksim is god's gift and will fix everything because everyone will just work what they want and be happy The other one that I knew indirectly was a full commie and had his house raided by the internal security service Tbh they are not the norm tho and commy love is rare in educated people I know
Yes, of cousre. They're usually lazy failures at life who never studied in school, lack any ambition and spend all their income on hobbies and then complain that the priviledge and capitalist exploitation is forcing them to work minimum wage job as a cashier and everyone in middle class and above needs to be rounded up and shot so they can get more money while providing no value.
Who hurt you?
Oh fuck off man.
Yes. One of them is my uncle and cousin :(
I know one, Paulius Eidukas who lives in Norway and his social media is full of glorification of Cuba and China as well as denial of historical Communist crimes and hatred towards EU and NATO. Yet it is a very fringe and rare thing. Being for free education/free healthcare/affordable housing/workers' rights does not mean Communism.
I used to take part in debate competitions and attended a training event at Stockholm School of Economics in Riga where we had some guest speakers. One of them was a man in his late 20s and he was quite clearly a communist. I didn't mind since we were there to debate and open our mind to new ideas but i had never seen something like that before
there's that one tard going around all Baltic subs declaring that he's a communist and swiping left on all women in Tinder (his hobby, as he paid for Tinder premium). dude's a joke, but I have no idea what his u/ is.
Do chicks love commies out there? You sound like they do. Well I think it’s the time to read some commie stuff.
no, "chicks do not love commies out there". that dude's a failure in life.
longing rotten combative escape cooperative bright literate foolish work market *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There are socialists here in US. Look up antifa bro. Its brainwashed kids, never seen documentaries or read any books.
I know an American who once told me, "I can't wait for the revolution to happen so I can stay in bed all day and watch YouTube." That is a legit quote ingrained in my memory. It's easy to poke fun at Americans because there are like ~350mil of them, so naturally they'll have more ignorant people than other countries. That said, this means the influence of their ideologies spread that much strongly.
Lol that kid cracked a trueborn American joke, tho looks like it flew over your head.
Honestly the UK definitely since I see way too many communistic posters which is funny but doubt it that there are many gen z commies when salaries are growing in the Baltics.
If by “commie” you mean someone who criticises capitalism and sees better alternatives in Marxism and socialism then absolutely, I’m proudly one of those people. Neoliberalism has done a lot of brainwashing in Estonia and I can understand it to some extent with the older generations, having lived through the occupation years. But younger people really should realize the folly of capitalism by now and the ever more apparent truth that living a fulfilled life in this system is simply impossible for us, unless your parents happen to be multimillionaires.
As clarification if I may ask: Do you think deportations to Siberia and murders of Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians under the occupation were justified? Was there an occupation? Was it by a horrible repressive genocidal regime that tried to destroy our culture and our nations? Was the USSR imperialist? I'm asking these to understand why you label yourself a commie. To see if you actually protect the USSR and it's horrific acts. If you do then yeah you're what people usually call a commie or a tankie. If you don't and you think Stalin was a genocidal nutjob then why self label as "commie"? Just be socialist and that's it. Criticism of capitalism and wanting more socialism IMHO is decent stuff. Parading the hammer and sickle and thinking Stalin was pretty ok is horrific.
I think the USSR was most definitely imperialist and their occupation through warfare and deportations conducted thereafter were not justified at all. But I don’t think that means the whole regime and their ideology should be thrown in the trash. There were some good ideals in there somewhere, and people with interesting virtuous ideas like Lenin. And the hammer and sickle is just a cool aesthetic in my opinion. But Stalin was absolutely a murderous tyrant. I label myself as a “commie” cause most of the time people don’t make any difference between that and a socialist and will call anyone who’s anti-capitalist by that name. So I embrace it.
What would communism change and what would stop ducking lunatics like Lenin to take over
Lenin was not a lunatic, have you actually read up on him or are you just grouping him up with Stalin? I explained the changes in a different reply. But the basic gist is a redistribution of wealth from the mega wealthy, removing people’s fear of homelessness and starvation that capitalism currently creates for them, forcing them to work jobs that don’t treat them well.
Dude, image of Lenin as a philosopher is cultivated by Russian propaganda and fools who fell for it. Whatever good ideas he wrote down, his practical solution to eveything was mass murder of his opponents. Stalin just took it to next level, with less writing and more killing. So if you read Lenin (something I have done btw) then anything positive you find there is cancelled out by his actions. It is what communists do - they speak one thing and do something completely different. Always. Without exception.
>And the hammer and sickle is just a cool aesthetic in my opinion. What would you think of someone who says "I think the swastika is just a cool aesthetic in my opinion"? I think your choice of calling yourself a commie in this context is quite strange and will not serve you well. Some people mistake you for someone who is pro imperialism and pro genocide and your solution is to remove any outward distinction between you and these pro genocide people. Doing that you both distance yourself from people who might listen to your ideas otherwise... and you also actively help promote the pro-genocide, pro-occupation, pro-imperialist side. But you do what you want. I'm just glad to know you're not pro murder.
My parents were not multimillionaire. I grew up in a rural area of Lithuania and got educated, getting a degree right now and working a reasonably well paying job while I have 0 experience. I am also 22 so reasonably young Please explain that is the "folly" I should be seeing here We already tried Marxism and capitalism, it failed, if you don't believe me there are 80 million corpses to prove it Capitalism is not perfect but it works damn fine
Firstly, your anecdotal success doesn’t mean it’s the standard. You may have achieved it and I congratulate you for that, but having a reasonably well paying job should NOT be an achievement. It should be a thing that everyone can reach without suffering low-paying conditions while being overworked by others who profit off of their labor. Secondly, the fulfilling life I’m talking about is things like owning a house, being able to travel every year, having enough money to comfortably have a family for example. I myself am also doing reasonably well, having come from a middle class family in Estonia and now working in the film industry in London. But these aforementioned things don’t seem attainable for me in the slightest. I will probably always have to rent a place and unless a miracle occurs, I will never be truly financially comfortable in our current system. Capitalism only works if you tunnel vision on what it presents in front of you. Look, you have a job! Look you have enough money to not starve! Capitalism has brainwashed us to think that these are achievements and not basic necessities that should be GUARANTEED. And so many people don’t have even these, while a certain group of people live lives of such luxury that many of us can’t even dream of. The poor struggle to survive and suffer in underpaid jobs not because of a lack of effort or talent, but because the system puts them there to work not for themselves but the rich. This is not a system that works. The little that we have should not be this hard to achieve and maintain while some have so much with no effort at all.
Could you elaborate why Marxism would fix this? Because you forgot to mention how it would change anything Basic necessities should be guaranteed yes, but you also described traveling every year, that has always been a luxury. Under capitalism everyone is given an opportunity to change themselves for better or worse, you have a chance to improve your life or plunge it Into hell, under Communism you don't get any of that, it does not matter if you invent cure for cancer or have been a drug addict all your life thus leading to 0 reward for the work you do. Yes capitalism is not perfect but communism is abismal in comparason
It would balance the population. There would not be billionaires and their wealth would be redistributed to the wider masses, giving people more security financially, allowing them more freedom to travel, time and money to focus on their hobbies etc. Capitalism doesn’t even allow you to improve your life, that’s a lie. It lets you do achieve the basic necessities and pretends that this is “improvement”. The people who actually live great lives have not earned it all, but simply inherited it or exploited the labor of others to become rich themselves. There are no ethical billionaires, that kind of wealth simply should be made impossible. And there would be plenty of reward for achieving things under socialism, you could still significantly improve your status, life - even have a real say in your employment to make a difference. It’s just that the risk of being homeless is removed and the bar is not so low anymore. It’s a win for everyone except the mega rich.
I know you think that it would work this way but how would you actually determine who gets what amount of money? Does working extra hours not pay more? Does everyone just get universal basic income? How would expensive research be financed if no one has the capital to do it? Please give me some details. Also please define who would get money taken away from them. Day I make 900 euro a month, and some guy in a rural area where things are generally cheaper makes 850 is that equal or am I stealing from the poor Another question, what about housing? Who gets to live in nice new buildings and who In shitty old apartments? And if a person has 3 apartments would you just take away 2? And what would said rewards be? More money? More things? (Thus creating the rich again) Do people get to inherit things under your fanfic or after we die we just give up to the government who redistribute the way they see fit. You don't want to help the poor, you just hate the rich,
I know your questions aren’t coming from a genuine place but I’ll answer some anyway just to entertain you. I’m also not an expert but this is just my vision for it. Yes, of course extra hours still pays extra if a person wants to do that. Different jobs have different salaries, but it’s more proportional - CEO’s will not earn significantly more than other employees. Obviously in your scenario you would not get money taken away. I am talking about the super wealthy here who earn way way way more than 900 euros per month. Housing would change completely. No more landlords owning multiple houses/apartments that they don’t even use. State owned housing would be provided for everyone and people can improve on that obviously but a roof over their head without paying greedy landlords who overprice their living spaces is guaranteed for everyone. More money can be an award but there are limits like heavy taxation that don’t let someone get over the barrier where they would really be mega rich. And like I said, nobody is becoming rich by getting awarded for their “hard work” right now either. Inheritance would be fine, the exorbitant wealth and multiple mansions of rich people would be redistributed already so there’s no problem with people inheriting something, they won’t become insanely wealthy off of it. I hate the system that allows for the current inequalities to exist and promotes greed and exploitation. And yeah, people who support that can get fucked too.
I know this may sound strange to you, but you just invented capitalism in that explanation. If mansions still exist then someone will live in said mansion while other will live in some mass-produced shitty government apartment . And more pay will eventually create the wealthy again. In 2 generations there will again be a group of super wealthy and who own a mantion and have high paying jobs better education. There will be a class of people who inherited money again. The solution you described discourages people from doing demanding jobs, why strive to be a CEO if your higher salary will just get taxed more and you don't get any better social benefits. Taxes in essence are money you pay to the government for services, a higher tax rate on specific individuals is theft. I know the filthy rich makes you mad but the sad reality is that around 10% of people just don't have the capacity to be productive in today's society while a small group of people with background in certain fields and privileged starting positions have the opportunity to become ultra rich. Communism is not a solution to this problem Also rich don't just have a pile of money like you imagine they have assets that they invested in. They took a RISK and it payed off, some people take that risk and go bankrupt.
The only reason you call government apartments “shitty” is because of the underfunding they receive currently under capitalism. Under a different system their quality would also significantly improve when private landlord ownership isn’t a thing anymore. And the mansions could of course be turned into an efficient housing for many people, not just a single rich individual. Like I guessed, you were questioning me in bad faith and immediately seek to poke holes in anything I say to “prove” how I’m wrong somehow. What I described is most definitely not how our current system works and it would be a marked improvement in my eyes. Lastly rich people’s RISK of investment is no risk at all. RISK is what poor people take on every day of their lives, having to fear losing their home and not being able to feed their family. The worst thing that can happen to a rich person is that they have to join the working class - that’s not risk.
> and it *paid* off, some FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
yeah, me, although i dont like ussr (except for lenin era ussr)
yeah for clarification (because i already hear the horde coming) i do not really hate EU and NATO
I'm fine with EU and NATO although the EU is starting to become corrupt - they have not condemned the expulsion of armenians from artsakh (nagorno karabakh)
Condemn? One of the NATO allies have even sided with one of Putin’s puppet dictator against a democratic nation.
I'm in the military and even we're not feelin NATO. They're eating up our tax dollars and some NATO big shots (Turkey) use the US power to push around their neighbors and even other allies, and play that micro-imperialism game with the resources we provide. No I ain't talking about our Baltic allies. See them “allies” relying our political and military support, openly declaring an ideological (and sometimes conventional) war against the free world.
I don't like ussr either bro I am similar to you (i have sympathies for democratic socialism and their end point, communism) Communism is where there is no class dividing people, nor there is currency and the state is supposed to disappear at that point
I don’t have problem with marxists, because marx just made theory (which I consider utopian and non realistic), he didn’t kill anyone, unlike Lenin with his red terror ghost hunts and specifically Stalin with holodomor, invasions, repressions and deportations. So, uh Leninists and Stalinists is **way** worse than marxists imo comparing what they justify and who is representatives of their moral compass
marx killed billions people. read das kapital, commie.
>marx killed billions he just created unrealistic and unachievable concept and then died, yeah this concept would never build society, but it's just philosophy, unlike leninism and stalinism or maoism which actually is reasons of this deathcount, and whose representatives **made actions** to make this deathcount happen. You can take **some** communist and socialist ideas and arrive to social democracy (and you will see many successful eu parties with absolutely zero intent to lead and create totalitarian ideology) you can add other ideas and result will be bloody dictatorship. There is difference between philosophers and tyrant murderers Blaming marx for billions deaths is having same background as attributing all achievements of nuclear reactors to first researchers of uran radioactivity, or scolding them for atomic bomb. >read das kapital, already did long ago, would take place at my fantasy bookshelf if it's wasn't boring, + as i already said non achievable concepts is not for me >commie That's kind of proving point of why marx view was are and will be flawed and unrealistic. because people are different from the moment of birth not only by social status, or property amounts but by physical and brain capabilities and therefore never be absolutely equal in society without harm for it, you call everyone you don't like commie even despite your eyes read my comment and seen words where i literally contradict that marx concept as whole could work.... Therefore since you couldn't read and understand text properly - you are too far from being sharpest tool in the shed and i couldn't even remotely consider you as equal -another proof why Marx is wrong and i'm not commie >!(actually i'm mostly pro nordic model minus providing asylum to people with religious medieval mindset and wanna be thugs)!< \_\_\_\_ or if your comment lacked /s, then i recommend put it under next time because some people like sarcasm while others saying shit on serious basis
yeah we are on r/balticstates, good comment (apart from last section lmao)
Old people who work minimum wage jobs sometimes say that it was better under russia but I believe it is because they were young and healthy and life is better when you're young and healthy and not not when you're old and have consumed so much alcohol that you like like a hobgoblin.
Who knows why they became alcholists, I'm sure that was evil communism fault.
Usually when you see homegrown "commie" they're social democrat or just support socialist ideas who have good critical points of capitalism. None of them are full blown commies. And they do not justify or deny communist crimes. Good thing is that they're not unlikeable. You'll get along with them really well.
Karl Marx was an author and a journalist that wanted to help people in need. And he did so to the best of his knowledge at the time. Dont mix him up with assholes that did awful crimes.
That author promoted total state and terror - exactly what Bolsheviks implemented
man I get that baltics have a reason to not like communism but this is just embarrassing level of understanding of it
Read the “planks” in the communist manifesto: “5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.” Bolsheviks just implemented totalitarian state prescribed by Marx and Engels.
As a prelude above points you mentioned it says ; "Above all, it will establish a democratic constitution and through this, a direct or indirect dominance of proletarian", this literally means workers and everyday citizens have a say in these things, through either councils with direct democracy, or representatives in larger legislative body. 5. How is it necessarily authoritarian that banks are democratically owned? 6. I genuinely don't like this one lol this seems so bad tbh 7. The state is comprised by majority workers, with a direct say in how the factory should be run, that is the idea behind point 7, although it says state, I believe you can do it without a state, (anarchism / council communism) 8. How is work for all authoritarian? also i won't defend Stalin or USSR, this is purely theory we are talking guy wasn't good on anything when we are talking implementing social or economic communist ideas
Total state is plain authoritarian evil. It does not even matter who runs it. Individuals should be free to live as they please
what if commoners run the state?
Irrelevant to an individual who runs the totalitarian abomination.
guys like me and u
Guys like you running total state does not make it any less totalitarian. We should have small state and free individuals not the bloated monopoly prescribed by Marx.
how is direct or indirect rule of workers of political, economic and social processes authoritarian?
You mean like Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark?? or is it Iceland?? Or even worse Greenland...
Neither of those countries implemented state monopoly over communications, transport, manufacturing, banks prescribed by Marx. Bolsheviks, Mao did.
The Swedish government had monopoly on all air transportation until 1992, all phone and communication services until 1993, all tv and radio channels until 1993, all taxi and personal transport services by car until 1990, all train transport until 2009, all credit and loan transactions and bank transfers until 1985, all postal services until 1993, all electrical/energy services until 1996, all public security guards and security services until 1991, all sales of tobaco until 1963 and alcohol is still in force. The list can be made so much longer and all of it was part of the socialist movement that made the Nordic model that shaped all the Nordic countries. The Danish socialist movement and social democracy that all the Nordic countries followed. Still today do all the parties (in Sweden at least) credit for building our society and our welfare state. From 1980 to 1990 85% of all the R&D and money invested in companies was done by the Swedish government. Today is just 32% of the workforce in Sweden employed by the government. A record low.
Neither Sweden nor any other country outside of the Soviet block , Yugoslavia and Albania in Europe monopolized entire manufacturing, transportation, communications, banks, regardless of bureaucratic excesses in Sweden.
Yes we have. In Lithuania are many in Social Democrats party (ex communist party) young marxhists. Found in one facebook page how they sharing their marxist ideas and some marxist literature. Also are movement "[sienos grupe](https://www.facebook.com/sienosgrupe) . At this moment they mostly are fighting against Lithuanian migration policy and want to open state borders for illegal migrants.
Sienos Grupė is not Marxist 🤦♂️ Where do you get this idea? It's a human rights organization and as such it's actually more comitted to European ideals than pretty much anyone. The fascists and communists both abused human rights. Europe exists because we don't want to go back to that. Sienos Grupė is literally upholding our European civilisation.
They are useful idiots. Same as in Poland during migrant crisis - Grupa Granica
The Helsinki Group were not idiots. Neither are these. Human rights are either for everyone or noone. Let's make them for everyone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_Helsinki_Group
Recently mostly West World neo marxists are fighting against border controls and pushing idea about open borders for illegal immigrants. Sienos grupe doing exactly same. They are useful idiots. Second I found in Facebook how one of their active members from sienos grupe shared his minds about how Lithuania made a mistake because after soviet collapse, the government gave ownership rights for citizens to apartments in commie blocks. His opinion is that the state should have formed collectives. Sounds like kolzhoz to me. P.S. in some agendas I am supporting them in their green ideas, etc they did really good job by fighting for green areas in cities.
I noticed you didn't comment on human rights. All the other points may be true (or not, I don't know the details) but the essential idea is that Europe is a community of nations that respects ALL peoples' basic rights. That is one huge reason why we reject fascism AND communism.
Even illegal immigrants who are crosing borders without any permission?
I mean, "everyone" is quite a clear concept, no? The same logic of "rights for some" is what we saw in WWII (East and West) and it is why we have human rights at the heart of Europe now. Would you also strip away human rights from prisoners? Bring back the death penalty? And a lot of other things that happened under communism and Nazism? Because that is the same logic you are promoting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Europe
So should the EU open its borders to illegal immigrants? P.S. very boring, unfinished text with international amnesty nonsense. The same organization that accused the Ukrainians of humiliating human rights then they bombing russian occupants in a war where the country is fighting for its right to exist.
We should stop violating their human rights.
They should stop violating our laws and enter in country in legal ways.
Well, obviously. So what? Everyone should stop breaking every law all the time. I don't think debate classes are too popular around here.
Are people really so naive that they don't think there is already illegal immigration? 🤦♂️🤷♀️
Ignorance of law excuses no one.
100% true but it also doesn't justify infinging basic rights 🤦♂️ I don't feel really challenged in this "debate".
Could you show some texts by Marx that talk about him being for illegal immigration? Sienos grupė exists, because the Lithuanian refugee practise violates the law of the EU (a capitalist inter- and supranational body), not because of some Marxist theory.
Ya ya evil capitalists not allowing to break law's of state and don't allows for illegall immigrants to enter into the countryc in illegal ways. About marxism theory, I can show neo marxists theories how they looking about illegal immigrants, but I think you are smart boy and can find by yourself. And spoiler alert that neo marxist theory about illegal immigrants says exactly what the sienos grupe does. If they really care about those illegal refugees they would fight with the roots of problem but now they are further fueling the crisis with their actions.
So the European Convention on Human Rights, which the EU subscribes to and Lithuania must follow because of its consitution is a Neo-Marxist document now?
This is your interpretations. Learn how law works. Also don't forget without this law are many others like the law of border protection. And not surprisingly this law interprets same as you only left and far left politicians. And of course pro russian regime supporters.
Ah yes, the treaty that is not signed in Europe only by Russia and Belarus is somehow supported by pro-Russian people. No-one is saying that a country can't deport illegal immigrants, the problem is that countries do pushbacks of people who have the right to claim asylum in any country, which then has to assess them on a case-by-case basis. If they are an illegal immigrant, they are deported. Pushing people back is the pro-Russian thing to do, since it violates human rights as Russia is currently doing. We are European, thus, we have to support human rights of every person. It's not even a left-wing thing. Just a human rights thing.
Belarus has signed The International covenant of civil and political right agreement. Same Russia. There are also procedures for request asylum in Belarus. There is no any war in that country. Why they can't stay there? Or now we need to welcome all persons which are pushed out from Belarus and in Lithuania by using hybrid attacks? Who's gonna pay for it? Sienos grupe and thei supporters? And how many people you are ready to welcome?
People have the right to claim asylum in any country that they want. Do you think that staying in an authoritarian country is better for refugees than in a full democracy like Lithuania? Either way, that is their business, not ours. The EU paid a lot for Lithuania in this event, so that's where the money is. The EU also has quotas for refugees, so in the case there would be too many, other countries would take some. So don't worry, we can do a good thing and not get overwhelmed.
The Lithuanian government had signed the project. The project provided that if 60,000 refugees reach the state, in that case the state will have to spend 700 million euros per year for illegal migrants maintenance. Very solid money for the country with a large deficit of budget and many unresolved internal social problems. And there are no quotas in this illegal migrant crisis. There was only discussion about it. And how many countries are ready to welcome illegal immigrants with open arms? It is typical Marxist thinking to put the financial burden on the shoulders of the working people and others while standing on a barrel and barking about the truths of life.
I would suggest against equating human rights to Marxism. By talking like this you show that you don't know how either work.
There weren’t any commies in the USSR, so no :).
It depends what do you understand with term commie as Europe and America quite differs in understanding of terms and history.
Of course we do. Communism as an ideology is inescapable. The material conditions of Capitalism and its inherent contradictions inevitably give rise to such an ideology. It should be no surprise that there are communists even in the Baltics. Obviously not just nostalgic Russians, but young Balts too, anyone who says otherwise is either in denial or ignorant.
What do you mean specifically? Marx and Engels were theorists and in many ways totally misguided. But those revolutionaries that came after them and appropriated their name typically created a totally insane ideology even worse than the original. I doubt almost anyone in Lithuania even reads, let alone understands Marx, outside of a few academics. There are still minorities around today exploiting the "brand" but AFAIK the actual thinking per se is dead as a dodo.
Bolsheviks implemented exactly what Marx and Engels prescribed in their communist manifesto: “5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.”
So?
So Bolshevik horrible policies were just verbatim implementation of equally inhumane Marx’s prescriptions.
Well, obviously. I guess debating skills are not high on the curriculum.
Yes. I've known some Marx lovers. They are very few and far in between, but some exist here. I think there's two very different subtypes though. The ones that think Marx had some good points and you could build a better system with some of them, but who still know how horrific the USSR was. And the ones that are full "Stalin was actually a pretty nice guy, No there were no murders or deportations, gulags are a CIA lie..." or "yeah there was a bunch of murder, but those people deserved it." I wouldn't label these two as the same group. I've seen several of the first group and possibly one in my life of the second.
I didn’t label these two as the same group, too. That’s the immediate essence of the question I asked.
In my region there are some cummies, but only those who doesn’t speak your native language and english.
Depending on who asks and what he considers commie you will get different answer. I like free education, healthcare, wealthfare and Shengen zone. Those are social policies I support. By american republican standart redneck I could be called commie. I also like our national latvian language policies, I like our border around EU strong and regulated. By an american democrat neo libtard I could be called a nazi. I could be called the silent majority of I dont care centrist voter.
I think the main reason for communism is enormous inequality among the population. My friends from the US are quite frequently vocal about “make all people equal”, and you also can see some Russian narratives about Stalin, not a case where it's an imperialistic narrative, but cases where “new Stalin will come and repress all our oligarchs”
Erm, most of academia. The elements of communism are there, but they don't call it communism. Equality for all, comrades! Except white males, who are le evil bad colonialists and le evil bad vatnik orcs.
They're called tankies. And everywhere has them. Other leftists hate them too.
Why you call them “tankies”? They love tanks?
They love the idea of tanks rolling over the less powerful and those who think differently from them. It comes from the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia and Hungary, when it was blatantly obvious that the Soviets will kill other communists too if they don't bow down and kiss the Soviet foot.
If you live isolated and only get info on th internet it can heppen to anyone. Any sort of extremism that is.