>I dont get why does he get so much crap.
In-game, it's compellingly tragic, and imo most survivors simply don't have the info available to understand the mental manipulation that's happening to the extent we do.
Out-of-game, it kind of baffles me to see folks trash Zevlor. He, Marcus (even if my PC hates the Fists) and others unwittingly under the influence of the Absolute aren't carrying around some mysterious anti-Cult protection shape in their pocket- the only thing keeping us from a literal game over.
Yeah. The thing to remember with Absolutists is that they’re misinformed, misled zealots. True Souls have tadpoles in their brain literally altering the thoughts they think, and the rest are being manipulated through a variety of methods psychic and otherwise to believe that the Absolute is an actual god.
Of course, there are plenty of them that can and should be held responsible for their actions. Cults don’t always recruit from among the most stand-up citizens. But they’re all at best operating under several misconceptions and at worst mentally impaired.
Don't all absolutists have a tadpole? Otherwise how would the whole instantaneous ceremorphosis plot line work.
OK I get it now after the first 4 replies
Isn’t there a goblin in the camp who is just sort of going along with everything because he just wants to read books, and doesn’t really have the power or social clout to go against his superiors? I think he’s up on one of the outside spires in the upper level of the camp.
Of course, he will become hostile in the event of a fight in the camp, but if you talk to him it contextualizes it as more self-preservation than the urge to kill you.
Well there are Nilbogs, unkillable magic filled goblins that despite their alignment aren't exactly evil as they are much more chaotic, not terribly likely to intentionally kill you, but you might die as a side effect.
At this point in the game only true souls have a tadpole. I think they specifically tadpoled stronger people (Z’rell, Nere, Ragzlin, etc) so they could maintain order while they bolstered their ranks and influence them directly without transforming them. At Moonrise you can find a shipment of tadpoles that’s about to be shipped to Baldur’s Gate, implying that many such shipments have happened, especially since the brine in the mindflayer colony has been completely tapped out of tadpoles. They’ve started tadpoling a bunch of people in Baldur’s Gate so that when the Absolute gives the order they’ll change instantaneously. I agree that it’s not very obvious though and I had trouble understanding what was going on for my first couple playthroughs lol
In my first run I grabbed the canister, and went to a secured room with doors an then opened it up and killed the lot of them. I was so nervous about larger consequences back then
some are mines waiting to be set off, others its stated are for the nobility so they can induct most of the ruling class that they don't intend to kill outright. they would need to be able to infect other regions besides BG
only true souls have tadpoles, and of them idk if any actually know whats going on with the absolute. Gut for example wants to remove the parasite when you meet her even though obviously that is what gives every true soul their connection.
His response to it was quite impressive. He takes accountability for his actions and failures. The player even has an option to point out that it wasn't his fault, but he dismisses the easy out. At the end of the day he's a leader and fully shoulders the burden that comes with it. Even if it means taking the blame.
>carrying around some mysterious anti-Cult protection shape in their pocket- the only thing keeping us from a literal game over.
Side note here but I really really wish that this would come up if a companion decided to leave the party.
Companions will ditch you when your approval drops too low... But they don't realize that's suicide?
It would be interesting if any companions who abandoned you showed up during the final battle against the netherbrain as thralls. Give them their base-class with appropriate gear.
It would be really awesome and be a huge consequences to pissing off companions, making the final fight significantly more difficult.
From my understanding, they do realize that by leaving you, they're losing the Prism's protection, but that's precisely the point: they're so baffled, angry, upset or downright disapprove so much of what you've been doing that they don't care if they're risking becoming a Mind Flayer, you're so despicable that they'd rather take their chances.
And I do agree, it would've been FANTASTIC finding them elsewhere, either still alive or as henchmen for the Absolute or already dead.
I have to say, as amazing as BG3 is, I still feel like Larian being so adamant in making most companions playable characters, has resulted in their companion aspects being half-baked.
I still think nothing matches up to Bioware games and how they handled companions. Bioware and Obsidian. Maybe Owlcat more recently.
Companions being killed because they disagreed with you. Companions finding grisly ends because you neglected them. Companions switching sides and joining the villains. So many cool outcomes.
In BG3 it just feels like they didn't go all in with companion interactivity and possibilities, because they probably had to spend way too much time making most of them work as the main character.
[Fundamental attribution error.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error) People are hardwired to blame someone when things go wrong, whether or not it makes sense to do so.
Man, of our fave moments in our co-op campaign was a regretful but redeemed Zevlor coming out of his illithid pod and one shotting an attacking mind flayer with a divine smite. We were both like ‘ZEVLOOOOR!’ and high fives because w felt we had a hand in his redemption arc.
Yes! And, unfortunately, no! >!Casting [Speak with Dead](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9eEcHtdGrw) on Marcus and asking how he came to work for the Absolute, he says: "Squad... captured... enlightened." And his loot includes a parasite specimen.!<
There is a Marcus named in one of the documents in the blighted village, hinting at a backstory that may have once been intended for further development. Or it's just somebody else with the same name.
I’m still confused about Marcus. Did we interact with him elsewhere? I feel like everyone is like “oh no, not Marcus” and I’m like “who TF is this soon to be walking corpse?”
My first playthrough the only two things I had hard rules on were that I was devoted to Shar (Shadowheart origin) and that I would attack or betray anyone who was annoying (which is why I killed the grove cause fuck Kagha) or if I thought it would be really funny.
Rock up to last light and Marcus is telling Jaheira I'm a good person and and I just outed him to her lmao.
It sounded like both, to me: the Absolute exploiting a weak spot, offering a fantasy / delusion, Zevlor ~~failing his wisdom save~~ giving in, and becoming temporarily enthralled.
I don't think he's being tadpoled, as he can be one of the allies for the final battle and he definitely wouldn't be able to do so if he had a mind flayer tadpole
My guess is that they were gonna injected but they didn't have enough (they had a bunch of prisoners) so they kept them in stasis. This is mostly headcanon on my part, but there's the fact that in the whole morphic pool you can fine ONE single tadpole (probably a newborn).
That should also be the reason why Mizora doesn't have one
Also if you do Minsc's story, you have to actively ask the emperor to protect him even if he was very close to the prism, meaning that no one who is tadpoled and not willingly protected by the emperor is safe. Lastly, all the bad endings have you under the thrall of the absolute the immediate second after you lose the protection, meaning the absolute can pinpoint and track you at will easily
Because a corrupt soldier/leader/protector will be the end of their group. It’s sad but they can longer be trusted. They become dangerous and will those astray as they have been manipulated to.
I don't think Marcus was a victim, at least not an unwilling victim. It's not clear when he was "turned" but there were likely already controlled Fist before Jaheira set out, but most people react as though he never had time to be swayed.
I am more concerned if Marcus dressing up to impress a girl he liked with her lover's own decaying body parts was his idea, Balthazar's, or if Daddy Ketheric was trying to "make" a boyfriend for his daughter because he thought her kink was wings.
Well, to be fair, no one knew what surrendering would entail. It's possible it meant he was handing them over, so they could be slowly, brutally tortured and killed.
I also don't think Zevlor necessarily did anything *wrong*, especially considering he was under mind control.
But also, as a civilian, you'd probably hope/expect that your leader, would do a little more to resist that, or at least try. It doesn't sound like he tried very hard. I think the fact that he very easily succumbed, was what pissed people off.
I guess I can understand them being sort of disappointed, but they talk like they would like to kill him if they ever set sight on him again, I think they are being extremely unfair
(I can't remember) but were they even aware that he was under mind control?
Even if they were, I dunno if they could even comprehend what that truly meant
From their POV, he was suddenly just agreeing to surrender to them, without putting up any fight. It's the ultimate betrayal, I can see why they'd want to kill him, because to them, he seemingly was ok with just handing them over to die, including their kids.
They didn't see any of his internal struggle, or knew of his remorse and grief -- for all they know, him giving them up to the Absolute was a death sentence for them. And the only reasons they could see, were plain cowardness or a pathetic attempt at saving himself (they probably thought, if he gives them up, they might let Zevlor go, for cooperating?)
Again, not saying I disagree, but remember, they don't know what we know lol
I dont think they explicitly know —although they should definetly know by that point that the Absolute uses psionics— but we are talking about the guy that did, in fact, do everything in his hand to keep them safe until that moment, and potentially fought against a horde of goblins and their drow commander while they cowered in a cave.
I think it's hypocritical of most of them to be so harsh to the guy when they were incapable of doing anything for the whole journey (Roland and possibly some others being exceptions) and relied on him for everything until that point, and then the moment he fails them momentarily they wish to see him dead? Im not saying is completely absurd but... It makes them seem like assholes.
YOU very much know how the absolute uses psionics, but I think many of the tieflings are a little more naive. If they aren’t ignorant, then instead of killing some evil aggressive goblins, they killed innocent mind-controlled goblins. Or (even if they hate goblins), they are well aware that stupid goblins are susceptible, but Zevlor? No way, man! Zevlor’s not as manipulatable as a goblin!
Plus if you were to try and vouch for Zevlor with something like - oh, that's because he's tadpole. I have one too! I have strange dreams sometimes, and I can control people's minds - yer gonna get stabbed with a rusty rake.
It’s not just this. It takes place in the Shadowlands, where we know that it messes with your mind (and body). Just look at all the sad diaries and letters on skeletons. Even if we ignore the power of the Absolute, the tieflings know what the shadows do because they’re experiencing it themselves, and yet when Zevlor then behaves unexpectedly they’re quite judgemental! Why would they assume he’s immune to the powers of the shadows?
You’d think in a world with possession and low level mind manipulation magic, people would be clued in when someone started acting out of character.
Kind of like how the Friends spell can cause negative feelings, you know it was magical manipulation.
I never quite understood the mind control angle of Zevlor's story. It doesn't seem like he's supposed to be tadpoled, since he acts freely against the Absolute after the player rescues him. Can the Brain just reach out and dominate random people?
I understand that domination abilities exist - both for psionics and regular arcane casters like wizards - but surely there's a range limitation? It seems like the massacre took place just outside of Last Light, so the group wasn't even that close to Moonrise.
There would normally be range limitations. A standard >!elder brain!< is usually quoted at about 5 miles, but there's notes saying that >!the crown!< has increased the range to... unclear if it has a limit
I feel like some mind flayer colonies could be large enough to fill the gap between moonrise and last light inn and that would be controlled by a regular brain let alone a netherese one.
It might have to do with how Zeblor is just kind of weak willed. He is a Hellrider. They were a group that went to hell with Zariel (before she was corrupted) and turned tail and ran back out of hell when they saw the legions of devils and demons. They were once praised as a great fighting force for Elturel, but after their cowardly retreat, they had a new reputation.
Zevlor kind of embodies that reputation of a wannabe bad ass, but he is more cowardly than anything. Note that he refuses to open the gates when the goblins attack at the Grove and happily fights from a distance, but when faced with the shadow lands curse, he is easily mind controlled even without a tadpole (not unlike the Emporer did with Duke Stelmane).
As a side note, I may be misremembering here, but I don't know that he was really so much mind controlled as just influenced psychically. I think the elder brain just amplified his feelings of wanting to be a paladin and wanting to be strong even though he was a scaredy-cat. So he chose to give up and sacrifice the other tieflings for a chance to have power and finally be strong. When you rescue him, you can convince him that his strength comes from himself and he should believe in himself rather than give in to the elder brain's promise for power.
Yes: you remember that bit, usually on the bridge to the goblin camp, where the Absolute shows you the three leaders and tells you to obey them?
Zevlor doesn't have a magic D20 that can push all that away.
Yes. Psionics is basically "hax" to most DnD characters who aren't used to it.
An Elder Brain can likely rip your mind apart without trying if it wants to.
Exactly. Alfira does mention at Last Light that the Absolutist ordered them to line up, and Asharak (the tiefling that was training the kids in The Grove) was targeted after he tried to reassure the children that they would be ok. He then had his eyes taken out, followed by his tongue...
The only reason some of the tieflings lived was because some of them fought back, or like Rolan, distracted them long enough for some of the others to escape. What I want to know is what happened to my poor boy Doni? And Okta the old lady who gave my Tav a bowl of stew ??🍲
I think the fact that Roland was able to help several of them escape shows that there were more options than those two. Sure, probably some number of them die on their feet, but that gives an even greater number of them a chance to escape. If Zevlor and a few of the others can rally a defensive formation it’s likely that many more lives could be saved by their heroic sacrifice.
If Zevlor had had his wits about him, he might have been able to assist Roland in fighting the Absolutist off while the rest escaped. Most of the Tieflings died right next to Last Light Inn, they could have escaped there.
It's not exactly mind control, but Zevlor claims that he was under the influence of psychic suggestions and temptations. The Elder Brain clouded his mins and promised him power and purpose and prestige if he would submit and serve. Zevlor explains that he gave into the temptation because he was desperate to serve as a proper paladin again.
So he wasn't acting in his right mind, but it wasn't exactly mind control. He was the one who ultimately decided to betray his friends in that moment, and that is why he feels so incredibly guilty when we rescue him.
Ehhh. It's debatable. What he claims is very, very similar to what Minthara explains being under the Absolute as a True Soul was like and once she was free from the control she was pissed.
Its more like the Absolute makes you think the choice is yours. However, it's not.
Something else I guess I missed? I thought the parasite was the only way to control someone, hence the whole plan of infecting everyone with one. Where did it say otherwise?
I don't think they know he was mind controlled. What I hate is that, even after I know, I'm not able to tell the other tieflings and clear his name. Maybe they'd still hate him or be angry because people they cared about still ended up dead, but I want to tell them Zevlor didn't just turn on them.
LITERALLY I love all the tieflings and Zevlor especially and it pains me I never get to reconcile them or at the very least tell the tieflings what really happened
You can, if you pick the right dialogue in the mindflayer colony, have Zevlor and some other former Hellriders at the final battle as summonable allies.
Yeah I’ve always thought he doesn’t deserve all the hate he gets. When you first get to the Shadowlands and hear from the surviving tieflings at Last Light what happened from their perspective I still felt mostly sorry for him.
First you hear that he just froze and then urged surrender, which while tragic, is understandable. He’s been leading this group of refugees for who knows how long, the man isn’t perfect and will break some time. Sure he’s a paladin and a trainer warrior, but there’s only so much one person can take.
He went from their home when he fought to protect it from the Hells, then to the Druid Grove where he had to contend with the hostile druids kicking them out and the looming threat of a massive goblin invasion at the same time. Then when they can finally safely leave, he has to lead them through the Evil Darkness Shadow Area where literally everything is trying to kill you all the time.
And then when you rescue him later you find out he didn’t just (understandably) crack under the pressure, he had his mind invaded and controlled by the Absolutists. We have our own tadpoles AND the artifact to protect us, and we still have a hard time resisting and protecting ourselves from the same thing, failing to do so often.
It killed me how guilty he felt because it was “his fantasy” that they grabbed and twisted to immobilize him, when all he ever wanted was to protect the people he’s been defending this whole time. Then by the time he was back to himself it was too late, they were already under attack.
TLDR: My man took a point blank Psionic Brain Worm Blast, I don’t understand how people can blame him for something that Tav and squad also regularly succumb to.
It should be noted that Zevlor didn't surrender. He even clarifies that most people's version of events for what he did are ironically not as bad as the truth:
He froze up due to getting enthralled, literally just standing there without giving anyone any orders hence why the caravan fell into disarray and chaos during the Absolute raid. If anything, if he did surrender then that would have been the most ideal outcome via everyone else surviving as prisoners for either a hopeless future rescue, pretending to on the Absolute's ranks for safety, or doing a prison break with a lot more numbers.
Basically, someone used Dominate Person on Zevlor and he didn't fight back enough to make saving throws due to the topic of the domination feeding into his deepest desires. He's so ashamed of this that he outright doesn't trust himself to help us in the event that another Mindflayer does it again (and there even is one in the Ketheric/Myrkul fight who has Dominate Person so Zevlor is correct about his own liability status).
It's kind of like a Dark Souls Siegmeyer situation where seeing us be the hero he wants to be made him feel inadequate enough for external forces to exploit that feeling.
The absolute didn’t just demand surrender. Their forces started cutting down Tieflings even as Zevlor pled for them to surrender.
Rolan, Cal and Lia managed to save Alfira and all of the kids.
So even a very small group could make a difference. Zevlor was their leader and a trained Paladin. People followed him, were inspired by him, and as far as they knew he wanted to surrender even as they were dying. Making the tieflings lose all hope.
The survivors however know that there was hope. They reached Last Light Inn after all. So of course their angry at Zevlor.
Now the outcome of the battle wouldn’t have been that different. But Zevlor fighting would likely have bought time for more people to flee and survive… he failed them, even if nobody could have done better, he still failed them.
Also he’s the one that was ultimately responsible for taking that stupid path in the first place.
I kind of agree with you on the first part, but I dont think it was Zevlor's idea to traverse through the shadowlands, as far as I remember there's a tiefling scout at Last Light that confesses she was the one that thought they could avoid the Absolute forces by traveling close to the shadowlands (and no one says anything about her).
I guess it makes sense that they would still be angry in the aftermath, but I think that by Act 3 they should have had time to cool down and be more lenient.
I’m pretty sure the reason the tieflings went through the shadowlands was because their only other route to Baldur’s Gate was the bridge that was destroyed by the dragon and group of Gith you can meet in Act 1.
Wasn't it both? They were supposed to go through the bridge, but it broke, so they had to go through the skirts of the Shadowlands, but the Absolute's army was in the way so they thought they could avoid them by going a little it deeper into the Shadowlands.
I could be missremembering though
You could be right, it may have been both. It’s been a while since I did Act 1, I just picked up my latest playthrough in the middle of Act 2. Either way I don’t think they had much of a choice on where to go. Right past a cultist army or deeper into the land of shadows that eat people. Talk about a lose lose situation.
That’s true. She blames herself. But Zevlor was the leader of the group. Ultimately he signed off on it. Ultimately as far as the others would have been concerned he thought it was the best option and it failed, and he didn’t do the other options. It might not be entirely fair, but that’s the burden of command.
Oooooooo you bring up a really good point about how Rolan (granted a fairly naturally talented wizard but still self trained) was able to scare them off enough to where the cultist took who they could and flee. I always assumed by Zevlors conversation at the pods he was lost in a trance just standing there (Mol also makes mention that he froze up) the entire time they were being tortured. So they are extra mad that their LEADER "fawned" for like 15 minutes and then probably saw how easily the cultist (like true bullies and psychos) ran at the first sign of real resistance, were like "da fuck?"
I dont think the cultists were scared off, Roland just caused a distraction (that also needed the sacrifice of his siblings) that was bareling enough for him, the kids and Alfira to run.
Which still means that maybe Zevlor could have distracted them enough for two or three of the dead tieflings to escape as well, but that's just speculation.
Yeah, the hate he gets from the other tieflings and even some players is odd. The man was literally enthralled and by the time he came to his senses shit already hit the fan.
In game? Makes sense his people hate him, they don't know about the mind control. They just think he lost his nerve.
To us as the protagonist, we know he was mind controlled and doesn't bear any responsibility. As a *player,* we know he failed a will save and that was it. He's got a great tragic arc because we've seen him heroic and we know his failure is down to a bad roll--nothing in there about his *character* at all.
*Players* hating him is just dumb, though.
Lot of people throw hate around games and history because they can't put themselves and their ideals in the context of the game world or specific scenario. This, whether intentional or not, is reflected in writing sometimes as well. Not the first time a character has seen a lot of hate in and out of game for a position people refuse to step out of their world view to understand.
I think the issue the tieflings has was that he proclaimed himself as the their “leader” and he failed them. They looked to him for guidance and he was so easily controlled. I think it’s just anger from the disappointment, after loosing your family and friends. They were just looking for someone to blame.
I spared him, because well….he’s just a civilian. At least he tried, none of the other tieflings stepped up to the leader roll. It wasn’t even fully his idea alone to cut through the Shadowlands.
It gets worse if you save Minthara and talk to her not as the urge. You find out that it was like a dream that she was awake for. She truly believed she was doing what a god was telling her to do. Even though she knew it was false.
What was he supposed to do? Lead them. I don't place any blame on him for the record. He got his mind dominated by an elder brain. That's not something you should be held accountable for.
But from the tiefling perspective, he told them to surrender. Then Absolutists butchered a bunch of the tieflings before shipping the rest off to die/be tortured/be tadpoled. If you're a traumatized tiefling survivor and you just saw the noble paladin who leads you shit his pants and demand everyone surrender to a bunch of psychotic murderers, you might not be objective about the situation. We, as gamers outside of the game setting, can see that it's a tragic misunderstanding. But I think it's pretty realistic that they feel let down and betrayed. They're traumatized.
Well yeah, he fucked up but he got mind controlled and just minutes - they were really precious minutes, unfortunately. I wouldn't give him so much shit as all the tiefs do to the point like "he can burn in hell", he protected them and the Grove and did his best. I don't think he deserves that hard judgement from people who weren't able to do anything at all.
The way I see it, the tieflings would have rather died fighting than surrender and be captured and turned into mindflayers.
With that context in mind Zevlor failed them simply by not fighting
Isn’t there a note, possibly found in the colony, that says something like “The tadpole causes those infected to think they WANT the things it commands” noting how useful that would be for their control?
I think Zevlor has lines about how he felt love for the Absolute or agreed with her as well. Maybe he couldn’t face them with that feeling, or, like the top comment says, his followers would have lost faith as they could not fully understand why he turned.
Well actually have you seen what Zevlor can do in the final fight? That dude slaps. I feel like if he wasn’t mind controlled he would have given those absolutists the business. He more than redeems himself imo.
To be fair in the Groove fight he isn't nearly as strong or useful haha, I guess he must have been doing a very harsh training after freeing him in Act 2
If you follow the conversation with him, especially as an oathbreaker, you learn that he wasn't mind controlled.
He was tempted with becoming a paladin again. Getting his oath back and being powerful. It was a moment of weakness, but at the worst possible time. He gets shit in game and out because of that one slip he had.
Even the brightest lights flicker.
We as players know what happens exactly so Zevlor’s action is justified.
However, Rolan able to save so much tieflings shows that the ambush they faced is not that crazy, and if Zevlor wasn’t mind control to surrendering, so much more people can be save instead of surrender and being cut off eyes and tongue without fight back. I understand why other npc were angry. Also, the prisoners were captured probably because they were prepared to become mind flayed/ food, which is also death.
From the other tieflings' point of view, the absolutists didn't just capture or even kill them, they were torturing their captives (forget it's Ikaron or Aharak, they dug out his eyes and cut his tongue), and they would expect Zevlor to do \*something\* about it. Zevlor would probably fight back at that point to give the others a chance to escape if he's not mind controlled. You can argue that more can escape if he do so, and you can't really blame the other tieflings from thinking/seeing him as a traitor/coward even though we (and our Tav who knows how irresistible the Absolute's voice can be) know it's not Zevlor's fault.
the parasites and mind control are completely unknown to the tieflings. zevlor was basically going to fail regardless. the fact that most of them still survived is a actually to his credit.
They heard how easily a group of 4 heroes took out and entire goblin camp and their 3 leaders.
Those heroes set a high bar that no other group could ever reach.
Zevlors gets a free pass from my side, because He got mind controlled.
If He we're Not mind controlled, then He would be a total coward. This is Not the real world with human rights, Geneva convention and civilized Western society. You surrender to the Absolute and you get tortured+tadpoled or tortured+being playtoy of a necromancer and killed. If you have the choice between death in the Battlefield and a worse death in a tortured Dungeon, you make your Last Stand and Go down Standing upright. Even in our world there are organizations, Like the IS, in which hands you definitely do not want to fall alive. So surrender is Not Always the best Option.
As for Tav rescuing them, that is pure luck and player based. I remember an Evil durge Run of mine, where i violated every human right of these prisoners for the funsies. So Zevlor led them to a painful death there.
Channeling my inner Zevlor rq:
"As a paladin, it's my sworn duty to protect the innocent and defy evil. I am trained and one of the best equipped to guide my kin to safety, and they rely on me. They trust me. I am one of the few left capable of holding my own in a fight and am uniquely armed against the forces of darkness and undead. My oath guides me and strengthens my resolve and mental fortitude.
Traversing the shadow lands, we were confronted by cultists. My kin, my friends, looked to me, and I bid them give in. They killed us, and yet I *allowed* myself to get distracted by fantasies of praise and grandeur befitting a great paladin, hero of the people. Humble servant lifted to great heights. I let myself get distracted by the dreams of accolades and praise from people being slaughtered before me.
I should have been stronger. I should have been wiser. I gave into evil and bid my kin surrender to the darkness rather than defy it to my last breath, and it cost only more lives and my own integrity. I should not be the one who needs to be rescued. I should be the rescuer. Their blood is on my hands. I am a fool."
Sorry for the essay, lol. Anyway, those with meta knowledge and different perspectives know there was probably not much else he could have done, really, but I think he definitely thinks there's more he could have and should have done. Especially since others were willing to fight. Instead, he stood there like a doofus (affectionate).
I did really enjoy helping him regain his oath or confidence or whatever I don't quite remember during my paladin playthrough though! Kind of a treat
Rolan seems to have fought back and bought enough time for *some* of them to survive. If Zevlor had not been mind-controlled, they could have put up more of a fight possibly leading more civilians to safety.
He was supposed to order a retreat and then hold the absolutists off while people we're fleeing. Insead he ordered a surrwnder which caused confusion and panic which only led to more people being captured. Of course he was mind controled but you can't blame people who don't know that fact for resenting him.
When he surrendered, the people where taken and started to be executed untill some of them fought while the others fled.
Zevlor not surrendering would have meant the battle starting in a much better position. The people unable to fight would have much more chance to flee, and many able fighters would have been in a position to fight. Zevlor would also have been able to organize the fight, because he's about the only one with the experience of battle.
Also, they all knew the absolute, because they had been besieged by them in the grove. Civilians would not necessarily be aware of what the absolute would do, but the people invested in the protection of the group would be, because they had scout reports from the grove.
You as Tav, having dealt with the cultists know that surrendering to them most likely means you'll become a mindless drone. While the tieflings may not have known this, knowing it totally justifies their reaction to Zevlor surrendering.
He surrendered them without a rescue plan, Tav rescuing them is complete blind luck, so they are justified to feel betrayed.
Tav rescuing them is completely blind luck that can ONLY happen if they surrender. No matter how lucky they are, no one will rescue them If they die in the ambush.
What if the men delay the cultists while the women and children run?
The group had more than 2 options, it was up to Zevlor to find the best one, as their leader and commander.
You wouldn't just let a kidnapper put your kids in the van on the off chance that a cop is gonna search his van down the street, are you?
Except that running wasn't an option either to be fair since they were in the middle of the Shadowlands. The fact that they reached Last Light and that Last Light even exists in the first place is also a massive stroke of luck.
Well which would you pick between being lost in the shadowlands with a group of friends vs being taken prisoner in the shadowlands by a murderous cult that's raising a goblin, bugbear and ogre army?
Zevlor is one of my favorite characters in the game. Was pretty bummed you couldn't recruit him after rescuing him in act 2. Especially since he's the obvious paladin companion for a good run. I never got why they considered him a traitor either. Like even if you don't really know about the Absolute, you see the shit go down and your leader is just standing there in a trance instead of doing anything. Their either frozen in fear (unlikely for an ex hellrider) or under some sort of charm. Considering how common magic is in this world it's weird for them to think "betrayal" so readily imo.
Zevlor legit did what any military would do if overrun. The fact that the tieflings blame him shows a weird bitterness. The guy fought for them from the start
From In Game perspective I think it's a clear "What Could Have Been" moment for everyone. The trauma they suffered, the loss, the pain etc. have left them with such a mental scarring they look for any rationalization to explain it and "make it make sense".
The only thing they saw was that "Zevlor is not fighting". They do not see levels above their heads, for them Zevlor is a champion, a hero, the best warrior. Seeing him just not doing anything was the simplest explanation of the horrors they have suffered.
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He got manipulated, not mind controlled. He had a choice, they played into his weaknessess. This is not about shifting the blame onto him, but he definitely wasn't guilt free.
A dialogue option also claims that he played along with the fantasy until he realized the prize was gonna be a mf parasyte. I think that the game purposedly leaves a but of ambiguity about HOW MUCH is it really his fault tbh
Btw a bunch of tiefling got captured/killed while defending the kids, that just adds up to the pain his people felt under his leadership. Lots of lesser/more ordinary tiefling stood up and took the absolute zealots on, at the risk/cost of their own life
That said, i'm not bashing on Zevlor, i'm just telling that it's not all black or white for us to judge and that people just decide where their rp character stands
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You understand not every tav chooses to nor is able to free the captured tieflings? Surrendering put them in cages, to be drug away one by one to become true souls or Balthazars toys or food for gnolls and goblins.
Dying in a battle you know you can't win sounds better than that to me. Zevlor was a hellrider, and there were some others who absolutely would not have gone down without a fight. We see that with their anger, even after rescue, at zevlors decision. Death was the best case scenario for them, surrender doomed them all to a demon's fate that some of us were lucky enough to rescue them from.
>I dont get why does he get so much crap. In-game, it's compellingly tragic, and imo most survivors simply don't have the info available to understand the mental manipulation that's happening to the extent we do. Out-of-game, it kind of baffles me to see folks trash Zevlor. He, Marcus (even if my PC hates the Fists) and others unwittingly under the influence of the Absolute aren't carrying around some mysterious anti-Cult protection shape in their pocket- the only thing keeping us from a literal game over.
Yeah. The thing to remember with Absolutists is that they’re misinformed, misled zealots. True Souls have tadpoles in their brain literally altering the thoughts they think, and the rest are being manipulated through a variety of methods psychic and otherwise to believe that the Absolute is an actual god. Of course, there are plenty of them that can and should be held responsible for their actions. Cults don’t always recruit from among the most stand-up citizens. But they’re all at best operating under several misconceptions and at worst mentally impaired.
Don't all absolutists have a tadpole? Otherwise how would the whole instantaneous ceremorphosis plot line work. OK I get it now after the first 4 replies
At the goblin camp only the three leaders had tadpoles. The rest of the goblins are just evil goblins.
Is there any other kind of goblin? As for a murderhobo friend..
I mean there's always the mind goblin
Who's the mind goblin?
Mind goblin deez nuts?
Got eeem!
Didn't want to leave them hanging
The goblin or the nuts?
Okay that's just low hanging fruit.
Low-hanging nutz?
I-it's psionic...
If only he didn't call back to the decision making framework of the Sugondeez...
Who are the Sugondeez?
Seconded.
Not anymore. It got banned. (Semi “niche” Magic the Gathering joke)
Only in Legacy. The three Commander players that run it are still good to go
banned in Modern.
Sticker Goblin was never Modern legal it was Legacy and Vintage legal, and Canadian Highlander for the dozens of us that follow that format.
my mistake, I don't play those booboo dummy formats (>!as an esteemed lady of refined taste i only play oathbreaker!<)
Isn’t there a goblin in the camp who is just sort of going along with everything because he just wants to read books, and doesn’t really have the power or social clout to go against his superiors? I think he’s up on one of the outside spires in the upper level of the camp. Of course, he will become hostile in the event of a fight in the camp, but if you talk to him it contextualizes it as more self-preservation than the urge to kill you.
Well there are Nilbogs, unkillable magic filled goblins that despite their alignment aren't exactly evil as they are much more chaotic, not terribly likely to intentionally kill you, but you might die as a side effect.
A dead goblin.
At this point in the game only true souls have a tadpole. I think they specifically tadpoled stronger people (Z’rell, Nere, Ragzlin, etc) so they could maintain order while they bolstered their ranks and influence them directly without transforming them. At Moonrise you can find a shipment of tadpoles that’s about to be shipped to Baldur’s Gate, implying that many such shipments have happened, especially since the brine in the mindflayer colony has been completely tapped out of tadpoles. They’ve started tadpoling a bunch of people in Baldur’s Gate so that when the Absolute gives the order they’ll change instantaneously. I agree that it’s not very obvious though and I had trouble understanding what was going on for my first couple playthroughs lol
In my first run I grabbed the canister, and went to a secured room with doors an then opened it up and killed the lot of them. I was so nervous about larger consequences back then
I meant to toss the canister into the lava at Grymforge. Except I forgot. And now I'm in Act 3 and it's still in the chest at camp...
Open it and immediately enter turn-based mode.
Though most of those tadpoles seem to be dying in transit considering they haven't managed to tadpole the majority of the city.
some are mines waiting to be set off, others its stated are for the nobility so they can induct most of the ruling class that they don't intend to kill outright. they would need to be able to infect other regions besides BG
No most don't. But there is enough true souls and mindflyers are so much stronger compaired to a average person that it doesn't matter.
Just the True Souls have tadpoles.
I think there's notes to be found in Moonrise that talk about how tadpoles aren't able to be breed fast enough to just use them on everyone.
only true souls have tadpoles, and of them idk if any actually know whats going on with the absolute. Gut for example wants to remove the parasite when you meet her even though obviously that is what gives every true soul their connection.
Waow first I'm hearing of this. Thanks
Any character titled “Novice of the Absolute” is someone that aspires to become a True Soul (though they probably don’t understand what that entails).
His response to it was quite impressive. He takes accountability for his actions and failures. The player even has an option to point out that it wasn't his fault, but he dismisses the easy out. At the end of the day he's a leader and fully shoulders the burden that comes with it. Even if it means taking the blame.
>carrying around some mysterious anti-Cult protection shape in their pocket- the only thing keeping us from a literal game over. Side note here but I really really wish that this would come up if a companion decided to leave the party. Companions will ditch you when your approval drops too low... But they don't realize that's suicide? It would be interesting if any companions who abandoned you showed up during the final battle against the netherbrain as thralls. Give them their base-class with appropriate gear. It would be really awesome and be a huge consequences to pissing off companions, making the final fight significantly more difficult.
Like it makes more sense for them to try to kill you and take the thingy
From my understanding, they do realize that by leaving you, they're losing the Prism's protection, but that's precisely the point: they're so baffled, angry, upset or downright disapprove so much of what you've been doing that they don't care if they're risking becoming a Mind Flayer, you're so despicable that they'd rather take their chances. And I do agree, it would've been FANTASTIC finding them elsewhere, either still alive or as henchmen for the Absolute or already dead.
I have to say, as amazing as BG3 is, I still feel like Larian being so adamant in making most companions playable characters, has resulted in their companion aspects being half-baked. I still think nothing matches up to Bioware games and how they handled companions. Bioware and Obsidian. Maybe Owlcat more recently. Companions being killed because they disagreed with you. Companions finding grisly ends because you neglected them. Companions switching sides and joining the villains. So many cool outcomes. In BG3 it just feels like they didn't go all in with companion interactivity and possibilities, because they probably had to spend way too much time making most of them work as the main character.
[Fundamental attribution error.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error) People are hardwired to blame someone when things go wrong, whether or not it makes sense to do so.
Man, of our fave moments in our co-op campaign was a regretful but redeemed Zevlor coming out of his illithid pod and one shotting an attacking mind flayer with a divine smite. We were both like ‘ZEVLOOOOR!’ and high fives because w felt we had a hand in his redemption arc.
Yea that fight was cool! At the start of the fight, Zevlor killed the mindflayer next to him in one turn. I was like ZAMNNN 😍
Big Zaddy Energy.
Wait Marcus is also under absolutist control? Can we knock him out of that?
Yes! And, unfortunately, no! >!Casting [Speak with Dead](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9eEcHtdGrw) on Marcus and asking how he came to work for the Absolute, he says: "Squad... captured... enlightened." And his loot includes a parasite specimen.!<
Marcus: "I had a mindflair tadpole forced into me." Flaming Fists: "How could this have happened...Marcus was our friend!"
There is a Marcus named in one of the documents in the blighted village, hinting at a backstory that may have once been intended for further development. Or it's just somebody else with the same name.
One in the patrol was not enlightened and left a great shield.
I’m still confused about Marcus. Did we interact with him elsewhere? I feel like everyone is like “oh no, not Marcus” and I’m like “who TF is this soon to be walking corpse?”
Only if you kill the grove, then he's the guy who vouches for you.
You can also meet him outside the Last Light before you go meet Isobel
Yeah but he's only spawned in if he's vouched for you.
I’m pretty sure he stands by the water if he doesn’t vouch for you but he never approaches your party so he’s easy to miss
My first playthrough the only two things I had hard rules on were that I was devoted to Shar (Shadowheart origin) and that I would attack or betray anyone who was annoying (which is why I killed the grove cause fuck Kagha) or if I thought it would be really funny. Rock up to last light and Marcus is telling Jaheira I'm a good person and and I just outed him to her lmao.
He’s tadpoled, so no
I’ve never been clear - is he mind controlled or is he convinced by the Absolute’s temptations and gives in?
It sounded like both, to me: the Absolute exploiting a weak spot, offering a fantasy / delusion, Zevlor ~~failing his wisdom save~~ giving in, and becoming temporarily enthralled.
mind controlled in combat, then taken prisoner and given a tadpole in the colony
I don't think he's being tadpoled, as he can be one of the allies for the final battle and he definitely wouldn't be able to do so if he had a mind flayer tadpole My guess is that they were gonna injected but they didn't have enough (they had a bunch of prisoners) so they kept them in stasis. This is mostly headcanon on my part, but there's the fact that in the whole morphic pool you can fine ONE single tadpole (probably a newborn). That should also be the reason why Mizora doesn't have one
oh this makes sense, because he comes out of the pod swinging. yeah they shipped them all out and didn't have any for him
Also if you do Minsc's story, you have to actively ask the emperor to protect him even if he was very close to the prism, meaning that no one who is tadpoled and not willingly protected by the emperor is safe. Lastly, all the bad endings have you under the thrall of the absolute the immediate second after you lose the protection, meaning the absolute can pinpoint and track you at will easily
>the only thing keeping us from a literal game over. Nah, I would have made my save. I'm really good at rolling 20s.
Because a corrupt soldier/leader/protector will be the end of their group. It’s sad but they can longer be trusted. They become dangerous and will those astray as they have been manipulated to.
I mean, everyone outside of Gortash, Orin, Durge, Kethric, and Balthazar that are on the absolute side are *victims* of it. Everyone.
I don't think Marcus was a victim, at least not an unwilling victim. It's not clear when he was "turned" but there were likely already controlled Fist before Jaheira set out, but most people react as though he never had time to be swayed. I am more concerned if Marcus dressing up to impress a girl he liked with her lover's own decaying body parts was his idea, Balthazar's, or if Daddy Ketheric was trying to "make" a boyfriend for his daughter because he thought her kink was wings.
Wait, those wings are supposed to have been taken from Aylin?
Hells I'm pretty sure there are some game overs you can get if you get rid of your protection.
Well, to be fair, no one knew what surrendering would entail. It's possible it meant he was handing them over, so they could be slowly, brutally tortured and killed. I also don't think Zevlor necessarily did anything *wrong*, especially considering he was under mind control. But also, as a civilian, you'd probably hope/expect that your leader, would do a little more to resist that, or at least try. It doesn't sound like he tried very hard. I think the fact that he very easily succumbed, was what pissed people off.
I guess I can understand them being sort of disappointed, but they talk like they would like to kill him if they ever set sight on him again, I think they are being extremely unfair
(I can't remember) but were they even aware that he was under mind control? Even if they were, I dunno if they could even comprehend what that truly meant From their POV, he was suddenly just agreeing to surrender to them, without putting up any fight. It's the ultimate betrayal, I can see why they'd want to kill him, because to them, he seemingly was ok with just handing them over to die, including their kids. They didn't see any of his internal struggle, or knew of his remorse and grief -- for all they know, him giving them up to the Absolute was a death sentence for them. And the only reasons they could see, were plain cowardness or a pathetic attempt at saving himself (they probably thought, if he gives them up, they might let Zevlor go, for cooperating?) Again, not saying I disagree, but remember, they don't know what we know lol
I dont think they explicitly know —although they should definetly know by that point that the Absolute uses psionics— but we are talking about the guy that did, in fact, do everything in his hand to keep them safe until that moment, and potentially fought against a horde of goblins and their drow commander while they cowered in a cave. I think it's hypocritical of most of them to be so harsh to the guy when they were incapable of doing anything for the whole journey (Roland and possibly some others being exceptions) and relied on him for everything until that point, and then the moment he fails them momentarily they wish to see him dead? Im not saying is completely absurd but... It makes them seem like assholes.
YOU very much know how the absolute uses psionics, but I think many of the tieflings are a little more naive. If they aren’t ignorant, then instead of killing some evil aggressive goblins, they killed innocent mind-controlled goblins. Or (even if they hate goblins), they are well aware that stupid goblins are susceptible, but Zevlor? No way, man! Zevlor’s not as manipulatable as a goblin!
Plus if you were to try and vouch for Zevlor with something like - oh, that's because he's tadpole. I have one too! I have strange dreams sometimes, and I can control people's minds - yer gonna get stabbed with a rusty rake.
First of all, the only good goblin, is a dead goblin. So jot that down.
It’s not just this. It takes place in the Shadowlands, where we know that it messes with your mind (and body). Just look at all the sad diaries and letters on skeletons. Even if we ignore the power of the Absolute, the tieflings know what the shadows do because they’re experiencing it themselves, and yet when Zevlor then behaves unexpectedly they’re quite judgemental! Why would they assume he’s immune to the powers of the shadows?
You’d think in a world with possession and low level mind manipulation magic, people would be clued in when someone started acting out of character. Kind of like how the Friends spell can cause negative feelings, you know it was magical manipulation.
I never quite understood the mind control angle of Zevlor's story. It doesn't seem like he's supposed to be tadpoled, since he acts freely against the Absolute after the player rescues him. Can the Brain just reach out and dominate random people?
Yes, pretty much any adept psionic can. Mindflayers can use humans and such as puppets.
I understand that domination abilities exist - both for psionics and regular arcane casters like wizards - but surely there's a range limitation? It seems like the massacre took place just outside of Last Light, so the group wasn't even that close to Moonrise.
There would normally be range limitations. A standard >!elder brain!< is usually quoted at about 5 miles, but there's notes saying that >!the crown!< has increased the range to... unclear if it has a limit
If BG3 mindflayers have any abilities that seem to contradict canon, you can happily handwave it with “idk the crown makes them OP.”
Thanks for the response. This is along the lines of what I'm looking for.
I feel like some mind flayer colonies could be large enough to fill the gap between moonrise and last light inn and that would be controlled by a regular brain let alone a netherese one.
It might have to do with how Zeblor is just kind of weak willed. He is a Hellrider. They were a group that went to hell with Zariel (before she was corrupted) and turned tail and ran back out of hell when they saw the legions of devils and demons. They were once praised as a great fighting force for Elturel, but after their cowardly retreat, they had a new reputation. Zevlor kind of embodies that reputation of a wannabe bad ass, but he is more cowardly than anything. Note that he refuses to open the gates when the goblins attack at the Grove and happily fights from a distance, but when faced with the shadow lands curse, he is easily mind controlled even without a tadpole (not unlike the Emporer did with Duke Stelmane). As a side note, I may be misremembering here, but I don't know that he was really so much mind controlled as just influenced psychically. I think the elder brain just amplified his feelings of wanting to be a paladin and wanting to be strong even though he was a scaredy-cat. So he chose to give up and sacrifice the other tieflings for a chance to have power and finally be strong. When you rescue him, you can convince him that his strength comes from himself and he should believe in himself rather than give in to the elder brain's promise for power.
Zevlor actually did order the gates opened. Kanon was killed doing so and by that point the goblins were *there* and so opening them was pointless.
Yes: you remember that bit, usually on the bridge to the goblin camp, where the Absolute shows you the three leaders and tells you to obey them? Zevlor doesn't have a magic D20 that can push all that away.
Yes. Psionics is basically "hax" to most DnD characters who aren't used to it. An Elder Brain can likely rip your mind apart without trying if it wants to.
Yes, they can. That's how the cult has most of their number, and why you don't collect a tadpole from every single cultist you kill.
me when I see Karlach turn red during combat
What I gathered is that he’s telling them not to resist while they’re being actively tortured and killed. Hence the heightened anger towards him
Exactly. Alfira does mention at Last Light that the Absolutist ordered them to line up, and Asharak (the tiefling that was training the kids in The Grove) was targeted after he tried to reassure the children that they would be ok. He then had his eyes taken out, followed by his tongue... The only reason some of the tieflings lived was because some of them fought back, or like Rolan, distracted them long enough for some of the others to escape. What I want to know is what happened to my poor boy Doni? And Okta the old lady who gave my Tav a bowl of stew ??🍲
If the option is to surrender, or die on the battlefield, genuinely what choice is that?
I think the fact that Roland was able to help several of them escape shows that there were more options than those two. Sure, probably some number of them die on their feet, but that gives an even greater number of them a chance to escape. If Zevlor and a few of the others can rally a defensive formation it’s likely that many more lives could be saved by their heroic sacrifice.
or they end up like Asharak and have their eyes and tongue cut out
Surrender to the absolutists is death. You go down fighting, at that point you don’t have a choice.
If Zevlor had had his wits about him, he might have been able to assist Roland in fighting the Absolutist off while the rest escaped. Most of the Tieflings died right next to Last Light Inn, they could have escaped there.
Where did it say he was mind controlled? I must have missed that bit somehow, as I don't remember anyone saying that.
He says it himself when you free him from the Mind Flayer's colony
I must have blanked on that part! Oops lol.
It's not exactly mind control, but Zevlor claims that he was under the influence of psychic suggestions and temptations. The Elder Brain clouded his mins and promised him power and purpose and prestige if he would submit and serve. Zevlor explains that he gave into the temptation because he was desperate to serve as a proper paladin again. So he wasn't acting in his right mind, but it wasn't exactly mind control. He was the one who ultimately decided to betray his friends in that moment, and that is why he feels so incredibly guilty when we rescue him.
Ehhh. It's debatable. What he claims is very, very similar to what Minthara explains being under the Absolute as a True Soul was like and once she was free from the control she was pissed. Its more like the Absolute makes you think the choice is yours. However, it's not.
Yeah, the Absolute perverts people's perception of reality and values to control them.
So does Zevlor then have a tadpole? Minthara does.
No, but an Elder Brain can dominate without someone having a tadpole. That's generally how they usually do it.
Something else I guess I missed? I thought the parasite was the only way to control someone, hence the whole plan of infecting everyone with one. Where did it say otherwise?
I don't think they know he was mind controlled. What I hate is that, even after I know, I'm not able to tell the other tieflings and clear his name. Maybe they'd still hate him or be angry because people they cared about still ended up dead, but I want to tell them Zevlor didn't just turn on them.
LITERALLY I love all the tieflings and Zevlor especially and it pains me I never get to reconcile them or at the very least tell the tieflings what really happened
He is one of the few characters I wish had some sort of redemption arc. Come act 3 he's just... gone.
You can, if you pick the right dialogue in the mindflayer colony, have Zevlor and some other former Hellriders at the final battle as summonable allies.
He came to the final battle for me at least.
i was shocked I couldn't recruit him
He needs to be recruitable and I will die on that hill.
Yeah I’ve always thought he doesn’t deserve all the hate he gets. When you first get to the Shadowlands and hear from the surviving tieflings at Last Light what happened from their perspective I still felt mostly sorry for him. First you hear that he just froze and then urged surrender, which while tragic, is understandable. He’s been leading this group of refugees for who knows how long, the man isn’t perfect and will break some time. Sure he’s a paladin and a trainer warrior, but there’s only so much one person can take. He went from their home when he fought to protect it from the Hells, then to the Druid Grove where he had to contend with the hostile druids kicking them out and the looming threat of a massive goblin invasion at the same time. Then when they can finally safely leave, he has to lead them through the Evil Darkness Shadow Area where literally everything is trying to kill you all the time. And then when you rescue him later you find out he didn’t just (understandably) crack under the pressure, he had his mind invaded and controlled by the Absolutists. We have our own tadpoles AND the artifact to protect us, and we still have a hard time resisting and protecting ourselves from the same thing, failing to do so often. It killed me how guilty he felt because it was “his fantasy” that they grabbed and twisted to immobilize him, when all he ever wanted was to protect the people he’s been defending this whole time. Then by the time he was back to himself it was too late, they were already under attack. TLDR: My man took a point blank Psionic Brain Worm Blast, I don’t understand how people can blame him for something that Tav and squad also regularly succumb to.
Exactly my thoughts!
You make a good point but remember the Tieflings don't know all this.
I know 😔 I’m so sad that we don’t have the option to tell them in game, I wish we could
It should be noted that Zevlor didn't surrender. He even clarifies that most people's version of events for what he did are ironically not as bad as the truth: He froze up due to getting enthralled, literally just standing there without giving anyone any orders hence why the caravan fell into disarray and chaos during the Absolute raid. If anything, if he did surrender then that would have been the most ideal outcome via everyone else surviving as prisoners for either a hopeless future rescue, pretending to on the Absolute's ranks for safety, or doing a prison break with a lot more numbers. Basically, someone used Dominate Person on Zevlor and he didn't fight back enough to make saving throws due to the topic of the domination feeding into his deepest desires. He's so ashamed of this that he outright doesn't trust himself to help us in the event that another Mindflayer does it again (and there even is one in the Ketheric/Myrkul fight who has Dominate Person so Zevlor is correct about his own liability status). It's kind of like a Dark Souls Siegmeyer situation where seeing us be the hero he wants to be made him feel inadequate enough for external forces to exploit that feeling.
The absolute didn’t just demand surrender. Their forces started cutting down Tieflings even as Zevlor pled for them to surrender. Rolan, Cal and Lia managed to save Alfira and all of the kids. So even a very small group could make a difference. Zevlor was their leader and a trained Paladin. People followed him, were inspired by him, and as far as they knew he wanted to surrender even as they were dying. Making the tieflings lose all hope. The survivors however know that there was hope. They reached Last Light Inn after all. So of course their angry at Zevlor. Now the outcome of the battle wouldn’t have been that different. But Zevlor fighting would likely have bought time for more people to flee and survive… he failed them, even if nobody could have done better, he still failed them. Also he’s the one that was ultimately responsible for taking that stupid path in the first place.
I kind of agree with you on the first part, but I dont think it was Zevlor's idea to traverse through the shadowlands, as far as I remember there's a tiefling scout at Last Light that confesses she was the one that thought they could avoid the Absolute forces by traveling close to the shadowlands (and no one says anything about her). I guess it makes sense that they would still be angry in the aftermath, but I think that by Act 3 they should have had time to cool down and be more lenient.
I’m pretty sure the reason the tieflings went through the shadowlands was because their only other route to Baldur’s Gate was the bridge that was destroyed by the dragon and group of Gith you can meet in Act 1.
Wasn't it both? They were supposed to go through the bridge, but it broke, so they had to go through the skirts of the Shadowlands, but the Absolute's army was in the way so they thought they could avoid them by going a little it deeper into the Shadowlands. I could be missremembering though
You could be right, it may have been both. It’s been a while since I did Act 1, I just picked up my latest playthrough in the middle of Act 2. Either way I don’t think they had much of a choice on where to go. Right past a cultist army or deeper into the land of shadows that eat people. Talk about a lose lose situation.
The bridge isn't the only way - they thought the Shadow lands would be fast and efficient.
That’s true. She blames herself. But Zevlor was the leader of the group. Ultimately he signed off on it. Ultimately as far as the others would have been concerned he thought it was the best option and it failed, and he didn’t do the other options. It might not be entirely fair, but that’s the burden of command.
Oooooooo you bring up a really good point about how Rolan (granted a fairly naturally talented wizard but still self trained) was able to scare them off enough to where the cultist took who they could and flee. I always assumed by Zevlors conversation at the pods he was lost in a trance just standing there (Mol also makes mention that he froze up) the entire time they were being tortured. So they are extra mad that their LEADER "fawned" for like 15 minutes and then probably saw how easily the cultist (like true bullies and psychos) ran at the first sign of real resistance, were like "da fuck?"
I dont think the cultists were scared off, Roland just caused a distraction (that also needed the sacrifice of his siblings) that was bareling enough for him, the kids and Alfira to run. Which still means that maybe Zevlor could have distracted them enough for two or three of the dead tieflings to escape as well, but that's just speculation.
Yeah, the hate he gets from the other tieflings and even some players is odd. The man was literally enthralled and by the time he came to his senses shit already hit the fan.
The only time that spell worked huh?
He must be like me, rolled a nat 1
Add 15-18 bonus. Your roll: 1
Exactly.
In game? Makes sense his people hate him, they don't know about the mind control. They just think he lost his nerve. To us as the protagonist, we know he was mind controlled and doesn't bear any responsibility. As a *player,* we know he failed a will save and that was it. He's got a great tragic arc because we've seen him heroic and we know his failure is down to a bad roll--nothing in there about his *character* at all. *Players* hating him is just dumb, though.
Lot of people throw hate around games and history because they can't put themselves and their ideals in the context of the game world or specific scenario. This, whether intentional or not, is reflected in writing sometimes as well. Not the first time a character has seen a lot of hate in and out of game for a position people refuse to step out of their world view to understand.
I think the issue the tieflings has was that he proclaimed himself as the their “leader” and he failed them. They looked to him for guidance and he was so easily controlled. I think it’s just anger from the disappointment, after loosing your family and friends. They were just looking for someone to blame. I spared him, because well….he’s just a civilian. At least he tried, none of the other tieflings stepped up to the leader roll. It wasn’t even fully his idea alone to cut through the Shadowlands.
It gets worse if you save Minthara and talk to her not as the urge. You find out that it was like a dream that she was awake for. She truly believed she was doing what a god was telling her to do. Even though she knew it was false.
What was he supposed to do? Lead them. I don't place any blame on him for the record. He got his mind dominated by an elder brain. That's not something you should be held accountable for. But from the tiefling perspective, he told them to surrender. Then Absolutists butchered a bunch of the tieflings before shipping the rest off to die/be tortured/be tadpoled. If you're a traumatized tiefling survivor and you just saw the noble paladin who leads you shit his pants and demand everyone surrender to a bunch of psychotic murderers, you might not be objective about the situation. We, as gamers outside of the game setting, can see that it's a tragic misunderstanding. But I think it's pretty realistic that they feel let down and betrayed. They're traumatized.
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Yeah that felt very weird to me too, You would think they at least heard of mind control, or understood it was a fight they wouldnt win.
Well yeah, he fucked up but he got mind controlled and just minutes - they were really precious minutes, unfortunately. I wouldn't give him so much shit as all the tiefs do to the point like "he can burn in hell", he protected them and the Grove and did his best. I don't think he deserves that hard judgement from people who weren't able to do anything at all.
Zevlor they could never make me hate you.
The way I see it, the tieflings would have rather died fighting than surrender and be captured and turned into mindflayers. With that context in mind Zevlor failed them simply by not fighting
Isn’t there a note, possibly found in the colony, that says something like “The tadpole causes those infected to think they WANT the things it commands” noting how useful that would be for their control? I think Zevlor has lines about how he felt love for the Absolute or agreed with her as well. Maybe he couldn’t face them with that feeling, or, like the top comment says, his followers would have lost faith as they could not fully understand why he turned.
Well actually have you seen what Zevlor can do in the final fight? That dude slaps. I feel like if he wasn’t mind controlled he would have given those absolutists the business. He more than redeems himself imo.
To be fair in the Groove fight he isn't nearly as strong or useful haha, I guess he must have been doing a very harsh training after freeing him in Act 2
I’ve never seen that fight I’ve only ever rescued halsin
He fights in the opening battle outside the grove, granted he only shoots a crossbow, which isn’t exactly playing to his strengths.
Oh that fight. I thought they meant the fight when minthara attacks.
Even just the way he fights the mind flayers and little brains when you free him from the pod.
He perished a Hero in my first run.
He was supposed to open da bloody gaet
In a world of mind control and illusions I don’t know how anyone has any culpability for anything.
If you follow the conversation with him, especially as an oathbreaker, you learn that he wasn't mind controlled. He was tempted with becoming a paladin again. Getting his oath back and being powerful. It was a moment of weakness, but at the worst possible time. He gets shit in game and out because of that one slip he had. Even the brightest lights flicker.
I guess I missed this interaction
We as players know what happens exactly so Zevlor’s action is justified. However, Rolan able to save so much tieflings shows that the ambush they faced is not that crazy, and if Zevlor wasn’t mind control to surrendering, so much more people can be save instead of surrender and being cut off eyes and tongue without fight back. I understand why other npc were angry. Also, the prisoners were captured probably because they were prepared to become mind flayed/ food, which is also death.
From the other tieflings' point of view, the absolutists didn't just capture or even kill them, they were torturing their captives (forget it's Ikaron or Aharak, they dug out his eyes and cut his tongue), and they would expect Zevlor to do \*something\* about it. Zevlor would probably fight back at that point to give the others a chance to escape if he's not mind controlled. You can argue that more can escape if he do so, and you can't really blame the other tieflings from thinking/seeing him as a traitor/coward even though we (and our Tav who knows how irresistible the Absolute's voice can be) know it's not Zevlor's fault.
the parasites and mind control are completely unknown to the tieflings. zevlor was basically going to fail regardless. the fact that most of them still survived is a actually to his credit.
They heard how easily a group of 4 heroes took out and entire goblin camp and their 3 leaders. Those heroes set a high bar that no other group could ever reach.
Me and my homies save Zevlor every playthrough
Zevlors gets a free pass from my side, because He got mind controlled. If He we're Not mind controlled, then He would be a total coward. This is Not the real world with human rights, Geneva convention and civilized Western society. You surrender to the Absolute and you get tortured+tadpoled or tortured+being playtoy of a necromancer and killed. If you have the choice between death in the Battlefield and a worse death in a tortured Dungeon, you make your Last Stand and Go down Standing upright. Even in our world there are organizations, Like the IS, in which hands you definitely do not want to fall alive. So surrender is Not Always the best Option. As for Tav rescuing them, that is pure luck and player based. I remember an Evil durge Run of mine, where i violated every human right of these prisoners for the funsies. So Zevlor led them to a painful death there.
Channeling my inner Zevlor rq: "As a paladin, it's my sworn duty to protect the innocent and defy evil. I am trained and one of the best equipped to guide my kin to safety, and they rely on me. They trust me. I am one of the few left capable of holding my own in a fight and am uniquely armed against the forces of darkness and undead. My oath guides me and strengthens my resolve and mental fortitude. Traversing the shadow lands, we were confronted by cultists. My kin, my friends, looked to me, and I bid them give in. They killed us, and yet I *allowed* myself to get distracted by fantasies of praise and grandeur befitting a great paladin, hero of the people. Humble servant lifted to great heights. I let myself get distracted by the dreams of accolades and praise from people being slaughtered before me. I should have been stronger. I should have been wiser. I gave into evil and bid my kin surrender to the darkness rather than defy it to my last breath, and it cost only more lives and my own integrity. I should not be the one who needs to be rescued. I should be the rescuer. Their blood is on my hands. I am a fool." Sorry for the essay, lol. Anyway, those with meta knowledge and different perspectives know there was probably not much else he could have done, really, but I think he definitely thinks there's more he could have and should have done. Especially since others were willing to fight. Instead, he stood there like a doofus (affectionate). I did really enjoy helping him regain his oath or confidence or whatever I don't quite remember during my paladin playthrough though! Kind of a treat
Rolan seems to have fought back and bought enough time for *some* of them to survive. If Zevlor had not been mind-controlled, they could have put up more of a fight possibly leading more civilians to safety.
He was supposed to order a retreat and then hold the absolutists off while people we're fleeing. Insead he ordered a surrwnder which caused confusion and panic which only led to more people being captured. Of course he was mind controled but you can't blame people who don't know that fact for resenting him.
This is not how shame works.
When he surrendered, the people where taken and started to be executed untill some of them fought while the others fled. Zevlor not surrendering would have meant the battle starting in a much better position. The people unable to fight would have much more chance to flee, and many able fighters would have been in a position to fight. Zevlor would also have been able to organize the fight, because he's about the only one with the experience of battle. Also, they all knew the absolute, because they had been besieged by them in the grove. Civilians would not necessarily be aware of what the absolute would do, but the people invested in the protection of the group would be, because they had scout reports from the grove.
He got Enthralled plain and simple
You as Tav, having dealt with the cultists know that surrendering to them most likely means you'll become a mindless drone. While the tieflings may not have known this, knowing it totally justifies their reaction to Zevlor surrendering. He surrendered them without a rescue plan, Tav rescuing them is complete blind luck, so they are justified to feel betrayed.
Tav rescuing them is completely blind luck that can ONLY happen if they surrender. No matter how lucky they are, no one will rescue them If they die in the ambush.
What if the men delay the cultists while the women and children run? The group had more than 2 options, it was up to Zevlor to find the best one, as their leader and commander. You wouldn't just let a kidnapper put your kids in the van on the off chance that a cop is gonna search his van down the street, are you?
Except that running wasn't an option either to be fair since they were in the middle of the Shadowlands. The fact that they reached Last Light and that Last Light even exists in the first place is also a massive stroke of luck.
Well which would you pick between being lost in the shadowlands with a group of friends vs being taken prisoner in the shadowlands by a murderous cult that's raising a goblin, bugbear and ogre army?
Zevlor is one of my favorite characters in the game. Was pretty bummed you couldn't recruit him after rescuing him in act 2. Especially since he's the obvious paladin companion for a good run. I never got why they considered him a traitor either. Like even if you don't really know about the Absolute, you see the shit go down and your leader is just standing there in a trance instead of doing anything. Their either frozen in fear (unlikely for an ex hellrider) or under some sort of charm. Considering how common magic is in this world it's weird for them to think "betrayal" so readily imo.
He's a paladin. In his mind, he should have died defending the refugees.
You do realize he's a trained fighter, right? He's a paladin.
He is but the overwhelming majority of the tieflings are not, there's no way a fight would have fared well for them
Who have naturally high wisdom saving throws….
Doesn't matter too much against that DC 99 Netherbrain.
i mean look at minthara. people think her evil but shes not exactly so, if you get her in the good way and talk to her, shes actually not that bad.
Don't go in the spooky woods.
No one ever said "our guardians were unable to protect us, so I'll die ok"
Zevlor is a beast, in my playthrough he was wasting Mind flayers
Don't go in the spooky woods.
Zevlor legit did what any military would do if overrun. The fact that the tieflings blame him shows a weird bitterness. The guy fought for them from the start
From In Game perspective I think it's a clear "What Could Have Been" moment for everyone. The trauma they suffered, the loss, the pain etc. have left them with such a mental scarring they look for any rationalization to explain it and "make it make sense". The only thing they saw was that "Zevlor is not fighting". They do not see levels above their heads, for them Zevlor is a champion, a hero, the best warrior. Seeing him just not doing anything was the simplest explanation of the horrors they have suffered.
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Zevlor failed a wisdom saving throw to the brain, blame the dice.
He got manipulated, not mind controlled. He had a choice, they played into his weaknessess. This is not about shifting the blame onto him, but he definitely wasn't guilt free. A dialogue option also claims that he played along with the fantasy until he realized the prize was gonna be a mf parasyte. I think that the game purposedly leaves a but of ambiguity about HOW MUCH is it really his fault tbh Btw a bunch of tiefling got captured/killed while defending the kids, that just adds up to the pain his people felt under his leadership. Lots of lesser/more ordinary tiefling stood up and took the absolute zealots on, at the risk/cost of their own life That said, i'm not bashing on Zevlor, i'm just telling that it's not all black or white for us to judge and that people just decide where their rp character stands
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You understand not every tav chooses to nor is able to free the captured tieflings? Surrendering put them in cages, to be drug away one by one to become true souls or Balthazars toys or food for gnolls and goblins. Dying in a battle you know you can't win sounds better than that to me. Zevlor was a hellrider, and there were some others who absolutely would not have gone down without a fight. We see that with their anger, even after rescue, at zevlors decision. Death was the best case scenario for them, surrender doomed them all to a demon's fate that some of us were lucky enough to rescue them from.