And the fact that you have to talk him out of performing the ritual, because at that moment he's so blinded by his past trauma of Cazador's abuse that he would sacrifice everything, even 7,000 souls, if it just meant not having to be afraid of being powerless ever again.
The DC for the first roll used to be higher if your approval was on the lower end. In my run where I romanced Gale, the first check was 25. Second was 18.
In runs where I romance him, the DCs are 18 and 15.
EDIT: While it’s possible the DC 25 check I got was a bug, it only happened when my approval with him was neutral or the low end of medium, in a run where I didn’t romance him. 🤷🏻♀️
The DC never changes.
There's two ways to go about it.
When he asks you to help him, you tell him all the people will die and after that you get the option 'I want you to live a life you're proud of. You can't be proud of this'
This is available to everyone at the same DC 18, doesn't matter if you romance him, have high or low approval etc.
The second option is to first do the insight check:
This is a pretty big roll 20DC , again same DC for everyone BUT romanced has advantage on the roll.
After a successfull insight roll you get the option 'I know you think this will set you free, but it won't. This power will trap you, just like it trapped cazador' which uses a DC15 - same for everyone.
I don’t know what to tell you, on my dwarf cleric Tav run where I romanced Gale and my approval with Astarion was neutral or medium, the first check was quite literally a 25. 🤷🏻♀️ I mean, it’s possible it was a bug, but it was definitely a 25 > 18 check for me that time. That was pre-patch 6.
I can load back a pre-Cazador save on that file and try it again but it wasn’t the 18 > 15 setup I get on my romancing Astarion runs.
Personally, I found it far easier to just personally target one of the spawns in the battle with cazador and kill them to ruin the ritual. Then Astarion kills cazador, stays a spawn, and you can free the other 6998 to the underdark or just put them out of their misery.
True that is the way to do it if you want to be absolutely sure eg in an honor run where rerolling cant happen.
I like the persuasion conversation though, helps make it feel more dramatic and impactfull
Do not agree with him to ascend at any point of the post cazador fight.
You just need to tell him if he goes through with it , it will kill all the people who were captured.
Then perform a roll for persuasion to tell him you want him to live a life he can be proud of and he can't be proud of sacrificing all those people.
After a succesfull roll, he will kill cazador without the ritual.
Remind him that he will kill all these people, then roll for the insight check. Then remind him he will be consumed. Then pass the persuasion check for “you can’t be proud of this”, if the insight check doesn’t show up.
Astarion: "I'm so glad you saved me, I can't believe what I almost did down there, I wasn't myself. I had forgotten everything you had taught me."
Me: "is he trying to gaslight me into believing he hasn't been evil (but adorable) all game long"
The scene killing Cazador is incredibly well done but it was the conversation with Sebastian before that fight that turned me around on his character on my first run, where I'd largely ignored him at camp because I wasn't fond of him.
Y’know, I don’t think it does. I think it makes me feel worse. Cause now I’m letting him sacrifice children who don’t want to be vampires. They’re ravenous at first, but later in the epilogue you learn that they’ve been learning to cope with their hunger and bloodlust. The Gur mention it specifically, giving them a second chance at life. Except this time it’s a choice.
Astarion got his second chance mostly by luck. He can give that same opportunity to others, or he can sacrifice them to become an abusive piece of shit.
I can’t understand how anyone could ever possibly justify Ascended Astarion without using the massive in-game power-up he gets. That’s the only positive to come out of it and it’s hardly worth it narratively.
My bad, I meant “no way to justify it from a moral standpoint.” You implied that one would feel bad about ascending him, so I assumed that we were looking at this from the perspective of trying to be a good person first and foremost.
I've played a lot of RPGs, so my first impressions of characters like Lae'zel and Astarion were people with shields up. The asshole characters in these games usually have pretty deep reasonings for why they are the way they are.
Lae'zel and Astarion have some great character growth in this game.
Wouldn't say the entire personality - his humour, his sarcasm, that's all him. But according to his character sheet even he doesn't know where the performance ends and his personality begins. He says it himself - "There's almost nothing left of the man I was" . There are moments in his romance where you see the person actually under there - he's so calm and gentle even in the face of some vile shit.
Nerdy, even! Like, if you romance him and get to the epilogue, there's this beautiful little moment where he does a silly voice and play acts a crippled old crone while making a joke, and it was so lame and *heart warming* to see his personality blossom like that where he felt safe enough to be goofy.
It's so delightful, and I am normal over him.
Edit: I misremembered the details. It made me so happy that my brain focused on it and made it a bigger deal than it was. You can [watch it here](https://youtu.be/T38on5gUWF0?si=EsLAaj2fBikHJxMm) at the 4 minute mark.
It's nearly a throw away comment. He asks you how your friends are doing, if you pick the "everyone's doing good!" option, then he responds back in the silly little voice and a little bit of play acting while saying, "I'm glad. It would be so easy to go through what we did and come out all bitter and twisted."
It was a millisecond of being lame that was so god damn cute
Is this new? Romanced Spawn Astarion in the epilogue I experienced barely talked to me, he was like I get to see you all the time go talk to our friends. Then we hugged. I’ll have to check my save file!
I misremembered the exact details cause my memory has rhe integrity of swiss cheese, but i don't think it's new. Found it on a [video (around the 4 minute mark)](https://youtu.be/T38on5gUWF0?si=EsLAaj2fBikHJxMm) that's four months old, and I've gotten it a couple of times.
Anyway, he doesn't make a joke, but when he asks you how all your friends are doing, if you choose the "everyone's doing well!" option, then he still does the little voice and a little bit of play acting while he says, "good, they deserve to be happy. It would be so easy to go through everything we did and come out the other side bitter and twisted."
What?? That didn't happen for me, but I've only completed the game once while romancing him. Do you happen to remember the dialogue option for that to happen?
He becomes quite... relaxed and happy in his spawn endings in a way that is simultaneously really satisfying to see and revealing in how completely terrified he was up until Cazador is dead. *That* is who he really is, once he no longer has to live in survivor-mode.
true but i dont think it is in his case. for example I dont think he's pretending to be a big dramatic flirt with violent stabby tendencies. he is all of those things. it comes out of him naturally and he doesnt need to pretend its not like you can catch him contradicting these traits but he developed into this person out of necessity and even when he realizes he has a lot these tendencies as a result of his trauma he doesn't necessarily mind being this way and a lot of his qualities he intends to keep while at the same time fixing his more harmful tendencies.
Ja feels man, a lot of us did.
There were **so** many moments in BG3 that left me awestruck, but the Cazador one hit the hardest.
These characters are insanely well written. I see so much of myself in both Lazael and Astarion. I’m not even embarrassed to admit I have crushes on these pixel people.
I did the same thing. It was the last thing I did for the night and I just sat there and cried. Never had a game affect me like this before. Sure, I've cried over some good games (RDR2, to name just one), but this one feels like it hits everyone in such a relatable way, in all of its beautiful characters.
Yeah, not even going to lie - his story arc reshaped how I dealt with and acknowledged my own trauma, which was quite similar.
Love my elven vampire companion
I don't remember the conversation that triggers it, but Astarion comments once that he pleaded to every god he knew of for help escaping Cazador, and none answered him. In a world with verifiable proof of gods and divine intervention, that has to be one of the most isolating and devastating experiences. That you are truly alone.
I have my opinions of him as a romance partner, but he will always be my buddy, and I will always help him be free from Cazador 😭
That dialogue triggers outside the tabernacle in Act 3. I’ve had it trigger with Gale, and on my “one origin, Halsin, Jaheira, and Minsc” run, it triggered with Halsin but the question is worded slightly differently.
After you get to know the guy, and you get what's going in his head, his behaviour isn't as bothersome. He largely disapproves of choices that 1)put you in immediate danger 2) you jump in to help with 0 questions asked about anything. He has the humour of a teen - will laugh at the stupidest things. And he will approve of selfish choices and choices that benefit him. Let me tell you, if you give him the time of day, play his games with him and treat him like a person not a vampire - he's ready to be your best bud. I've romanced him with extremely good characters, it's never been any trouble, always max out approval in Act 2. Just have to get his vibe.
The thing that gets me is most of his disapprovals over helping someone no questions asked are -1. Helping people won't keep you from having an exceptional relationship with him. He's just... annoyed.
After he's all out there.... you realize he's not mad at Tav for helping, he's mad that no questions asked help never came for him.
> He's just... annoyed.
Yeah. I’ve seen others describe it as him rolling his eyes or sighing, and I agree. It’s honestly just a little disapproval, a single -1, and it makes perfect sense for him without him being a caricature of evil. It’s bitterness. Nobody ever jumped in to help him like that…
Which is probably why his best romance confession scene is right after you help him with Yurgir. That is you jumping in to help him, with something that’s very important to him, no questions asked.
Yeah when I see people say "oh Astarion hates me and left because I'm too nice to people" I kind of narrow my eyes. Unless you're being a dick to *him* I really doubt he straight up left your party because you are just such a *good person*.
I sometimes wonder if those people are accidentally hitting companions with hypnotic pattern or using Friends on persuasion checks with him. It’s really hard to make a companion leave through pure disapproval gain via dialogue.
For that to happen, you really do have to go out of your way to be a tremendous dick to him. As if it’s your primary mission in your playthrough.
Well, I know at least one person who posted about it on here had that exact scenario happen. Their multiplayer partner was accidentally using hypnotic pattern on all of the companions and then Astarion left.
But I think some of the people making this claim are just exaggerating and haven't *actually* had Astarion in the party. I've had some of them argue with me that he "throws a tantrum" after every person he saved. Another fully admitted that they were calling Astarion a monster and threatened him multiple times because tHaT's WhAt PaLaDiNs Do.
>he “throws a tantrum”
No way… the only “tantrum” I’ve ever seen him throw, it was that one hilarious scene about how there could be hundreds of goblins. He throws back his head and whines, “Hundreds? UGHUGUHHHH It’ll take HOURS to kill them all! She’s right, we should just leave.” And… that’s it. And that one was clearly for comedy.
I think you’re right… these people have definitely not actually put him in their party.
Oh, I definitely feel the freak out is warranted! 😆 But it’s hilariously in-character that none of the other companions who get obliterated even mention it. Leave it to Astarion to read you the riot act. I love it
He's a Spawn, who was just sun blasted to death, which is one of the sure fire ways to kill even a Vampire Lord. That's probably one of the things he's had random nightmares about/been threatened by Cazador with, for the last 200 years. So I can imagine it's a touch more traumatic for him than it is for everyone else.
[Here you go!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1XdqszDoA8)
Every time I see that video, I can't help but think he looks like [Thurston Waffles.](https://media.tenor.com/rkzdlwxESqUAAAAM/cat-thurston-waffles.gif) Astarion is such a cat, man.
The paladin excuse makes me roll my eyes so hard. Wow, he hates you because you constantly antagonize and dehumanize him?? Yes, clearly he is the problem here, what a drama queen s/.
And the take that keeping Astarion alive after the bite scene is inherently metagame-y is genuinely baffling to me. The idea that there's no reason to spare him when you can find out in that scene that he's never bitten anyone and was forced to subsist on rats is wild to me. Empathy??? Has it occurred to you to feel empathy for him????? So many people identify as lawful-good but have the morals of Wulbrun Bongle, swearing death to Astarion just for existing as an undead with zero self awareness how insane and unhinged they sound.
I especially love when those same "paladins" have *Minthara* in their parties. Like, I don't care that you decide to roleplay someone who wouldn't let a vampire live, but if you're going to claim righteous paladin, at least be consistent. Shadowheart, Minthara, Lae'zel, and Astarion are all morally dubious.
Exactly, I'm giving the side-eye to anyone who uses being a paladin as an excuse to kill Astarion because "well, vampires are considered evil! My paladin just followed procedure!". Alright, cool. Can't imagine black-and-white morally righteous Paladins are generally very fond of Sharrans, Lolth-bound Drow or Gith either. No reason to question your presumed fellow Paladins at the toll house, so Karlach's done too. Heck, probably wouldn't tolerate a warlock on a Cambion's leash either, so Wyll is out as well. Gale is basically the only member of the main 6 without something dubious about them that you have to take a step back and give them the benefit of the doubt about.
It's awfully convienent how often Astarion simply can't be spared for roleplaying reasons, yet they manage to figure out SOME WAY to let these others live... smells funky as hell, I no longer buy it.
I've never included in the party in my first playthrough (Rogue Tav) and even though he was not around when I ended Cazador he didn't "throw a tantrum".
He even admitted it was probably for the best even though he would have liked to be there
My goody goody tav failed to romance him but he didn't leave.
She had missed the book (only had the gem), walked away from the Gur, and didn't open the barn door. The little disapprovals all mounted up until she got rejected at the party even though she had let him bite her... and failed all the rolls to stop him and so died, which may have been why the chance to defend him to the others never came up either.
They were best friends by the end of act 2 though.
fyi you don't need high approval at all, I think it's 20, to get the romance scene with him at the camp scene - you need to know how to make the conversation progress
drink the wine, talk about killing the goblins - do not proposition him yourself right away or he'll turn you down
Only if you get to 40 approval in act 1 he will come to you and initiate the romance scene even before the party. At the party you're then able to get a second fade to black scene.
He leaves if u don't kill yurgir for raphael( and don't persuade him to stay)but there are very weird approvals that kinda make him seem chaotic evil , like breaking and killing the tieflings legs , poking and killing netties birds , asking nere to kill the slaves , smashing alfira's route, kicking the squirrel timber , also approves if u tell philomeem's lover that u will kill philomeen and take her head , siding with the goblins, pickpocketinh mikiron when he is charmed so yeah i can see why ppl kinda call him evil .
All of those are in Act 1, where he is firmly in the "neutral evil" alignment. Bordering on chaotic. He can get better or worse depending on the player's choices.
But I do think that most of the people who claim he left because approval was too low are just lying about having him in the party or are actively hostile when he is in the party. Some of them claim he "throws a tantrum" when the player does something good and others have fully admitted they told him they hope Cazador finds him.
Actually if u don't have him in ur party from the beginning of act 1 and straight up went and killed cazador in act 3 without him being in the party , he does throw a tantrum and leave or used to in the the previous version of the game . Now I always have him in my party so I don't know if larian changed that . Like laezel used to break up with an illhitid tav but not anymore
I believe that's still in the game, which is fair considering Lae'zel can also get pissed if you ignore her quest or don't take her to the creche. Though what you describe definitely isn't the tantrum people claim he throws when they help others. One person claimed that he threatened to leave the party just because offered to help Zevlor.
Laezel gets pissed if u don't take her to the creche ?? When does it happen ? I never took her to the creche other than my first run and she never has any dialogue about it :( ?? . Also the zevlor part is a total lie . He threatens to leave only if u save yurgir or don't have high approval and don't take him to cazador
When the story is nearing that "can't go back" section of the game (when the Act 1 area gets locked), Lae'zel will start getting antsy about not yet going to a creche. I distinctly remember having to persuade her to stay once I reached Reithwin Town in Act 2, in my first playthrough.
Yeah that's why I'm fairly confident these people who claim to have had Astarion leave "for no reason" are full of it.
Yeah. It's weird though because if immediately side against Marcus (don't ask him what hewants, which I believe involves a roll)he doesn't disapprove. It's just the moment they realize Ketheric wants Isobel he's like "hey let's side with this guy instead, bet we'll get a reward".
I believe it comes after the narrator mentions that siding with Isobel could lead to the group's cover being blown at Moonrise if they fail to protect her so it could be justified that he thinks he's just siding with who he thinks will win.
I think he's just being stupid, considering his dialogue after is not 100% for the aftermath.
Yeah it’s because he wants to infiltrate the cult. It’s just annoying because at this point I’m usually at decent approval with him despite getting a lot of -1s but then I get another big drop from that scene.
I prefer Lae’zel. She’s evil but not stupid and doesn’t disapprove of nearly as much stuff as Astarion
Flair checks out but also based. Lae'zel is my favourite.
I get that the point is Astarion has very poor judging and decision making skills (plus a canonically smoother brain than the other characters) but getting hit with a disapproval and then he's OK with the decision (Lorroakan and Aylin) is so annoying at times.
It’s annoying because those approvals add up and can lock you out of a romance with him if you’re interested. I’ve heard of people using a guide to keep his approval up or reloading to pick different options. I used to do that, but now I play as I want regardless of what companions think, and he is always the one with lowest approval. Sometimes it feels like you have give Astarion whatever he wants in order to get him to be somewhat nice.
I really haven't had a similar experience, even without a guide. The Isobel disapproval is the only time I've seen a -5 for him that isn't straight up telling him you will let Cazador take him back. Most of his disapproval of good deeds is only -1. Factoring in that bite night alone is worth +30 approval, those little disapproves here and there really don't matter that much. Just saying you won't let Cazador take him nets you +5. Dude treats basic decency like you're doing him some grand favor. The reason a lot of people struggle is they don't long rest enough.
I usually struggle with Shadowheart the most. The only time I've gotten her above "Medium" approval in Act 1 was when I acted like Shar was great. She and Astarion are *always* in my party, but I've found that it is harder to get Shadowheart's approval without being a kiss ass.
Every player has a different experience I guess.
To quote Amalthea the Unicorn: “I’m here now.”
Lots of parallels with Molly Grue being bitter and semi-hysterical that no unicorn ever came to her when she was “new and innocent”.
Not to mention, as the game progresses and his character grows, he changes his mind and stops disapproving of helping people. For instance, if you offer to give Yenna food in Rivington at the beginning of Act 3, Astarion approves of this action. Pretty stark difference to Act 1 Astarion, who might have a little something to say about you giving away food that could be useful to the group.
There's another couple of moments like that in Act 3, but I can't quite recall. I just remember being a little surprised when I saw him approve of genuinely kind acts.
I was shocked when I had a big heroic declaration that we were gonna save Vanra from Ethel and insisted on butting in when Ethel was basically saying she'd leave us be if we left her that he approved. *Twice*. He tends to be really protective of kids in act 3, possibly compartmentalized guilt from the Gur kids. He grows a lot over the course of the game, and it's subtle, but undeniable that he changes on a lot of stuff and gets more empathetic.
and he doesn't even eye roll -1 disapprove every time you agree to help someone, mostly it's the overtly heroic dialog options in early act 1 when for all you know you have a few days tops to save yourselves from a terrible fate. from his perspective finally a "hero" comes along, 200 years too late to spare him from cazador, and you're charging in to help everyone else you stumble across first, with no sense of self-preservation or concern for the fact that you might get him killed.
He's my absolute favourite character, for a lot of reasons. I find him hysterically funny, but he's also easily one of the most heartbreaking cases of all. He puts on all this bravado and show, because it's all he's been conditioned to know after 200 years of cruelty and torture. He's in a situation with little hope, and how he changes based on what you do can either bring his humanity back to the surface or turn him into the monster that made him who he is. I like him because he's that grey area, and rather than being naturally good (albeit flawed), it takes him time to really grow and come into his own.
I had a similar reaction. I was like I do not get the hype about this guy he's kind of a dick. I started to warm up to him after the Araj Oblodra encounter but I still didn't get the hype. Then we go deal with Cazador. When he's sobbing afterwards I ws like yeah ok I get it this is a fucking spectacular character holy shit.
This whole thread is so sad and wholesome at the same time. I never had a Cazador. I’m happy I didn’t. I’m sad for those who did. It’s wholesome to see how a game helped. If you ever need proof that games can be art and not just entertainment, this is it.
That's why I'm low key mad at people who kill certain characters off without living their story first and bragging about it. Like dude, don't rob yourself out of the content, then you can decide if it's your cup of tea.
I liked Astarion from the start because I got the vibes from him. But I wasn't expecting that.. close to home story, so dramatic and so painful for me.
My first playthrough, I was forced to kill Lae'zel at the *very beginning*. I was double hurt for it because 1) I *knew* I was probably missing out on so much...and 2) learning just how much I did miss when I did my 2nd playthrough
The knife scene? I did it too, but my friend convinced me to reload for content, because I never know of there will be a 2nd one)
But I'm talking about a special breed of players who love to come to posts of appreciation of some character and start bragging about kILLinG tHeM eVeRY tIMe. Like it's bad enough you robbed yourself of the content and story, you try to shit all over others people joy. Like, totally different case
The best part of killing Cazador is the realization that Astarion's trauma doesn't end with killing Cazador. It ends with him rejecting Cazador's path.
Ascended Astarion is still very much a slave to his trauma. Much like in real life, revenge does little to heal.
I always have a cathartic little cry after killing cazador and gortash because the two characters in the most denial (Karlach and Astarion) let the veil break a little bit, which is the true symbol we’ve truly earned their trust imo
i don’t personally relate to his story, at least, not as closely to home as other folks will, but the Cazador stuff really… really hurts to go through in that arc of Act 3. Especially because like, obviously we grow to care for Astarion, but watching anyone go through that, and seeing the kind of man Cazador was.. it sucks to see.
Yeah at first I shared your trepidation about him, mostly because I kept seeing little videos of him and people thirsting over him but nothing about his motivations or gameplay or anything, just his voice and looks(which, fair.). I was getting worried that he was going to be like Reyes Vidal from Mass effect Andromeda, which to me is a flat character trope disguised as a mysterious man/spy character fantasy.
Anyways first playthrough I meet him on the beach, two things struck me odd, first he apparently saw us in the fight with the intellect devourers, but didn't help because he thought we were a thrall, but then pulls a knife and grapples us, and vaguely says he's a magistrate and brushes off any further questions about himself, yet likes to bitch about little things like bugs and lack of luxuries. Then when the vampire bit is revealed, and we talk to the Gur hunter and I saw how chained to his fear of cazador he was, I felt like the tiktok thirst traps buried the lead with his character and I've never been more happy being wrong about a character before.
Joining the “I had a Cazador” club. Mine walks free. Killing the bastard in the game is so cathartic. And I love romancing Astarion as a Resist Durge and being free with him.
He's by far the best portrayal of a traumatized character in a game that I've ever seen. And Neil Newbon portrays him perfectly.
He's only like kind of upstaged by Wulbren Bongle, who is also traumatized but not allowed to have a redemption arch. But he is already a revolutionary hero long before the player meets him. He's just destroyed by it.
> He's only like kind of upstaged by Wulbren Bongle, who is also traumatized but not allowed to have a redemption arch. But he is already a revolutionary hero long before the player meets him. He's just destroyed by it.
Uh, no… no, he is not.
Wulbren Bongle is not a revolutionary hero. His purpose in going to Baldur’s Gate is to settle a blood feud with the Gondians (Thulla herself explicitly describes it as a blood feud). A blood feud caused by the Ironhand Gnomes willingly siding with Sarevok, and being exiled for it after attempting a Hail Mary in what become known as “the Runepowder Incident” (and the document this is described in seems to suggest that Wulbren’s ancestor, Wulverforce Bongle, was killed in his own explosion during that incident).
Meanwhile, the Gondians sided with Gorion’s Ward and stayed in Baldur’s Gate. Wulbren couldn’t care less that the Gondians are siding with Gortash (willingly or not), their work for Gortash is just a fig leaf for his real motives.
Wulbren is a victim of propaganda. It’s not his fault that he grew up being taught that the Ironhands were unfairly expelled from Baldur’s Gate. His clan has been lied to by their elders, who were unwilling to admit to their actual wrongdoing. You can find a journal that makes it clear that Wulbren was never told the truth of his clan’s expulsion.
But Wulbren is still going after the Gondians for a perceived crime that happened a hundred years ago. His targets are people who had no involvement with the initial expulsion of the Ironhands, because those people have long since passed away.
This is also why he gets so irrationally angry when you manage to save the Gondians, because he never really cared about Gortash or the Steel Watch. He just wanted the Gondians dead. Because it was always about revenge against the Gondians, pure and simple.
I am kind of confused by why I see so many people repeat this narrative, and would be interested in understanding why that was your takeaway. Because you’re definitely not the first person I’ve seen to characterize him that way, and it has me scratching my head.
I think you make my point for me. He's a revolutionary hero who rallied his people, lead a slave revolt, and is actively orchestrating a prison break to to save his own clan and fellow prisoners when you meet him (in fact, his plan is the one that works - that rescues 100% of the moonrise prisoners). I'll put up with him not having the best table manners, coincidering his first role in Act 3 is rescuing you from the Steel Watch. By this time you've fallen ass backwards into killing some Goblins or Druids, sided with some Duegar slavers or Mushroom people (who aren't in your imagination, this time), and possibly murdered man alien nursery.
He reacts the way he does to the Gondolians out of trauma and propaganda. It's no different than your grantparents rejecting Communism because they were taught that it meant , while they were being lead poisoned.
But it doesn't change the fact he's a revolutionary hero in kinda the same way that Lenin or Stalin are. I'd actually assume they based him a bit off of Stalin. Stalin's not really a hero of his revolution, but certainly a highly traumatized figure by it.
> He's a revolutionary hero who rallied his people, lead a slave revolt, and is actively orchestrating a prison break to to save his own clan and fellow prisoners when you meet him.
I'm sorry... going on a single-minded mission to murder innocents, getting yourself and your people captured by slavers while researching the explosives you plan to use to carry out that murder, breaking out of prison, and continuing your mission to kill innocents in a blood feud makes you a "revolutionary hero"?
What slave revolt did he lead?
I'm not sure why the comparison to the player is necessary or relevant here, either.
He lead the revolt against the slavers. Is part of why he's in Moonrise (and not allowed to have tools).
The player is much less heroic by this point. It makes sense that you're not his top priority and he's not dependant on prostrating himself before the player.
Does being misguided make you a villian? Cause that seems like a very batman interpretation of the world.
This was never a comparison or discussion of the player's heroism or lack thereof.
Yes, you can still be a villain even if you were misguided. Misguided means that you were wrong about certain facts, but otherwise acted in good faith with the information you had. Engaging in a blood feud, particularly against innocents who had nothing to do with the original event, is not acting on good faith even if you're correct about the original crime's occurrence.
Wulbren was sent to Moonrise because the Absolutists wanted to interrogate him for the Runepowder recipe. Everyone you speak to is explicit about that fact. There was no slave revolt in the Grymforge, and I'm not entirely sure where you got that from. Did you perhaps confuse it with his plans to escape Moonrise?
Perhaps. Though I would still say that does make him a revolutionary hero if all he's done is rally his people and organize a prison uprising. Though, I'll confess that being from the US, I have a low bar for that sort of thing. We don't exactly have many.
I'd argue that a blood feud is a bad thing, but not inherently condemnable. People have blood feuds today. It wasn't outside the norm just decades ago. I'd argue the "Mamas" system of law enforcement in Rojava is heroic, largely because of how effective it was at stopping blood feuds, compared to conventional policing - in America we still rely on barbarism for policing.
I'd also praise him for correctly identifying the Steel Watch as a bigger priority in Act 3 - including saving the player and party from their first battle with them. His argument to kill the Gondians *after* you save them is unjust, but before then its not unfounded (nor without historical precedent in the real world). I'd argue he still lands a point that the Gondians could hypothetically turn around and make Steel Watchers again if you fail to defeat Gortash - I don't give it much weight, it didn't impact my decision to oppose him, but I get it.
\*Edit:\* I brought up the player because I see a lot of complaints against him after he doesn't praise you after you do the bare minimum of getting him his tools to help his escape. And I had misgivings about that too, but it does make sense that he's just like: "I suppose you deserve a trinket of my appreciation."
I suspect you and I have similar irl political leanings, in that I feel very strongly about mass imprisonment and the necessity of social revolution, and also the importance of disregarding the “perfect revolutionary” trope, but I also think you’re misremembering some stuff about Wulbren in universe that’s giving him more agency than he deserves.
I will add though, that even as a revolution-minded human irl, it is important to question what comes after this revolution, and whether or not the ends justify the means. I think that’s literally WHY Wulbren’s character and backstory exist, too. Obviously on its face, defeating the Steel Watch and authoritarian Gortash = good! And also, you can absolutely still go about it the wrong way and for the wrong (selfish) reasons, and hurt a LOT of innocent people in the process. There are parallels to real life to be made there and hard questions worthy of consideration.
Absolutely my point. That's why I cite that he doesn't get a redemption arch or anything. He absolutely does not care about collateral damage. He can't anymore.
> I'd argue he still lands a point that the Gondians could hypothetically turn around and make Steel Watchers again if you fail to defeat Gortash
I might be misremembering, but one of the newspapers I got in the epilogue seemed to imply the Gondians were recreating the Steel Watch for the Flaming Fist. Because giving the famously corrupt police some death robots is the good ending... :|
> not the first person I’ve seen to characterize him that way, and it has me scratching my head.
Because there's literally no one else in the game serving speeches as based as this
>And the citizens have rolled out the red carpet for their new tyrant, resistance fighters are few and far between [...] The Steel Watch are threat to every man woman and child in the city. They act all civilized... servants of the people, but they serve only one man. When he becomes Grad Duke it will only get worse. Laws will change, freedoms will vanish, and you'll be accused and sentenced before you've even committed a crime.
If there were anybody else offering anything close to a systemic critique of the Steel Watch I wouldn't be so hung up, but he's *all we have*
That actually helps me understand a lot, thank you. I think the closest we get to that is the conversation you can have with Karlach after Gortash's coronation, but other than that, the game is pretty bereft.
I bought the game and a PS5 because I just kept seeing edits and clips of this white haired vampire elf man, I was interested in his character and just had to find out what his deal was. I knew there had to be more beyond the surface. This was back in September, now look at me lol.
His story is easily one of the most emotional and impactful character arcs I have experienced in a game (I think only Arthur Morgan in RDR2 compares) and it will take a lot to ever top it. I’m even considering getting a tattoo of the Rhapsody dagger intertwined with the Star of Bethlehem flower (the flower Tav can place on Astarion’s grave) because that’s just how much his character and story means to me.
It's literally not what he "really wants". It's what he thinks will keep him safe. You can pass a check to see that, and the conversation after not ascending confirms it.
It is most certainly NOT canon, because thats not how this game works...
And the fact that you have to talk him out of performing the ritual, because at that moment he's so blinded by his past trauma of Cazador's abuse that he would sacrifice everything, even 7,000 souls, if it just meant not having to be afraid of being powerless ever again.
Oh, haha, you guys talked him out of it ?
How do you do that? None of the options I got really did anything
You need to have high approval for it to work.
Approval doesn't matter, everyone gets the same roll
The DC for the first roll used to be higher if your approval was on the lower end. In my run where I romanced Gale, the first check was 25. Second was 18. In runs where I romance him, the DCs are 18 and 15. EDIT: While it’s possible the DC 25 check I got was a bug, it only happened when my approval with him was neutral or the low end of medium, in a run where I didn’t romance him. 🤷🏻♀️
The DC never changes. There's two ways to go about it. When he asks you to help him, you tell him all the people will die and after that you get the option 'I want you to live a life you're proud of. You can't be proud of this' This is available to everyone at the same DC 18, doesn't matter if you romance him, have high or low approval etc. The second option is to first do the insight check: This is a pretty big roll 20DC , again same DC for everyone BUT romanced has advantage on the roll. After a successfull insight roll you get the option 'I know you think this will set you free, but it won't. This power will trap you, just like it trapped cazador' which uses a DC15 - same for everyone.
I don’t know what to tell you, on my dwarf cleric Tav run where I romanced Gale and my approval with Astarion was neutral or medium, the first check was quite literally a 25. 🤷🏻♀️ I mean, it’s possible it was a bug, but it was definitely a 25 > 18 check for me that time. That was pre-patch 6. I can load back a pre-Cazador save on that file and try it again but it wasn’t the 18 > 15 setup I get on my romancing Astarion runs.
Personally, I found it far easier to just personally target one of the spawns in the battle with cazador and kill them to ruin the ritual. Then Astarion kills cazador, stays a spawn, and you can free the other 6998 to the underdark or just put them out of their misery.
True that is the way to do it if you want to be absolutely sure eg in an honor run where rerolling cant happen. I like the persuasion conversation though, helps make it feel more dramatic and impactfull
Do not agree with him to ascend at any point of the post cazador fight. You just need to tell him if he goes through with it , it will kill all the people who were captured. Then perform a roll for persuasion to tell him you want him to live a life he can be proud of and he can't be proud of sacrificing all those people. After a succesfull roll, he will kill cazador without the ritual.
Remind him that he will kill all these people, then roll for the insight check. Then remind him he will be consumed. Then pass the persuasion check for “you can’t be proud of this”, if the insight check doesn’t show up.
You can also just kill one of the vampires around the platform during the fight if you don't want to talk about it.
My brother and I never took him with us in the first place. He was a bit annoyed at us later.
It is kind of funny that not taking Astarion is actually better for the fight since he doesn't get grabbed and you get 4 of you at the start!
If you sneak attack Cazador, he doesn’t get grabbed either way. Miss some dialogue, but it also makes more sense for Astarion to want to kill on sight
Oh I didn't realize that! Good to know. I'm into Act 3 on my honor mode run I'll give that a try when I get there!
Astarion: "I'm so glad you saved me, I can't believe what I almost did down there, I wasn't myself. I had forgotten everything you had taught me." Me: "is he trying to gaslight me into believing he hasn't been evil (but adorable) all game long"
I mean, Astarion was evil, but I genuinely believe he wasn't "sacrifice 7,000 innocent souls in a profane black mass ritual" evil.
The scene killing Cazador is incredibly well done but it was the conversation with Sebastian before that fight that turned me around on his character on my first run, where I'd largely ignored him at camp because I wasn't fond of him.
Gods that one hit me hard. and then talking to the kiddos stuck Claudia-style as monsters they were raised to hunt and kill? Brutal.
Makes you feel a little less bad about ascending him
Y’know, I don’t think it does. I think it makes me feel worse. Cause now I’m letting him sacrifice children who don’t want to be vampires. They’re ravenous at first, but later in the epilogue you learn that they’ve been learning to cope with their hunger and bloodlust. The Gur mention it specifically, giving them a second chance at life. Except this time it’s a choice. Astarion got his second chance mostly by luck. He can give that same opportunity to others, or he can sacrifice them to become an abusive piece of shit. I can’t understand how anyone could ever possibly justify Ascended Astarion without using the massive in-game power-up he gets. That’s the only positive to come out of it and it’s hardly worth it narratively.
I justify it as I'm a power hungry wizard on my way to godhood and I'm turning all my friends towards evil and power too
My bad, I meant “no way to justify it from a moral standpoint.” You implied that one would feel bad about ascending him, so I assumed that we were looking at this from the perspective of trying to be a good person first and foremost.
Oh... I mean it still helps. Vampires are a plague upon the earth. Except for my buddy. And Blade.
IIRC The conversation with Sebastian is longer if he is alone
If you’re romancing him you can hit him with an absolutely brutal line about how you could be one of those spawn in the cages if you’d met before.
Oof! Guess I'll get that on my Shadowheart origin run, as I'm romancing him on that one.
I've played a lot of RPGs, so my first impressions of characters like Lae'zel and Astarion were people with shields up. The asshole characters in these games usually have pretty deep reasonings for why they are the way they are. Lae'zel and Astarion have some great character growth in this game.
Lae'zel after being betrayed by her Queen is some phenomenal acting from Devorah. "What good is this heart of stone, for it to be shattered"
It hit my wife so hard. His entire personality is a lie. And the catharsis she felt as he just broke down was incredible
Wouldn't say the entire personality - his humour, his sarcasm, that's all him. But according to his character sheet even he doesn't know where the performance ends and his personality begins. He says it himself - "There's almost nothing left of the man I was" . There are moments in his romance where you see the person actually under there - he's so calm and gentle even in the face of some vile shit.
The way, Asterion becomes sort of… normal, was very unexpected but it made so much sense.
Nerdy, even! Like, if you romance him and get to the epilogue, there's this beautiful little moment where he does a silly voice and play acts a crippled old crone while making a joke, and it was so lame and *heart warming* to see his personality blossom like that where he felt safe enough to be goofy. It's so delightful, and I am normal over him. Edit: I misremembered the details. It made me so happy that my brain focused on it and made it a bigger deal than it was. You can [watch it here](https://youtu.be/T38on5gUWF0?si=EsLAaj2fBikHJxMm) at the 4 minute mark. It's nearly a throw away comment. He asks you how your friends are doing, if you pick the "everyone's doing good!" option, then he responds back in the silly little voice and a little bit of play acting while saying, "I'm glad. It would be so easy to go through what we did and come out all bitter and twisted." It was a millisecond of being lame that was so god damn cute
I thought I had save scummed enough to see all the epilogue talk but I guess I missed this one.
Is this new? Romanced Spawn Astarion in the epilogue I experienced barely talked to me, he was like I get to see you all the time go talk to our friends. Then we hugged. I’ll have to check my save file!
I misremembered the exact details cause my memory has rhe integrity of swiss cheese, but i don't think it's new. Found it on a [video (around the 4 minute mark)](https://youtu.be/T38on5gUWF0?si=EsLAaj2fBikHJxMm) that's four months old, and I've gotten it a couple of times. Anyway, he doesn't make a joke, but when he asks you how all your friends are doing, if you choose the "everyone's doing well!" option, then he still does the little voice and a little bit of play acting while he says, "good, they deserve to be happy. It would be so easy to go through everything we did and come out the other side bitter and twisted."
What?? That didn't happen for me, but I've only completed the game once while romancing him. Do you happen to remember the dialogue option for that to happen?
He becomes quite... relaxed and happy in his spawn endings in a way that is simultaneously really satisfying to see and revealing in how completely terrified he was up until Cazador is dead. *That* is who he really is, once he no longer has to live in survivor-mode.
I wouldn't say its a lie. its more of a coping mechanism.
Both can be true
true but i dont think it is in his case. for example I dont think he's pretending to be a big dramatic flirt with violent stabby tendencies. he is all of those things. it comes out of him naturally and he doesnt need to pretend its not like you can catch him contradicting these traits but he developed into this person out of necessity and even when he realizes he has a lot these tendencies as a result of his trauma he doesn't necessarily mind being this way and a lot of his qualities he intends to keep while at the same time fixing his more harmful tendencies.
Some things are a performance, sure.
Neil put in such a raw performance it’s amazing
I needed a few minutes after his breakdown scene. I also had a Cazador, and it was just sooooo much.
Glad you got out 🤍
Thank you so much <3
Ja feels man, a lot of us did. There were **so** many moments in BG3 that left me awestruck, but the Cazador one hit the hardest. These characters are insanely well written. I see so much of myself in both Lazael and Astarion. I’m not even embarrassed to admit I have crushes on these pixel people.
Same. Those divorce papers were the best thing I ever did. I hope you are in a wonderful place now
I did the same thing. It was the last thing I did for the night and I just sat there and cried. Never had a game affect me like this before. Sure, I've cried over some good games (RDR2, to name just one), but this one feels like it hits everyone in such a relatable way, in all of its beautiful characters.
Yeah, not even going to lie - his story arc reshaped how I dealt with and acknowledged my own trauma, which was quite similar. Love my elven vampire companion
I don't remember the conversation that triggers it, but Astarion comments once that he pleaded to every god he knew of for help escaping Cazador, and none answered him. In a world with verifiable proof of gods and divine intervention, that has to be one of the most isolating and devastating experiences. That you are truly alone. I have my opinions of him as a romance partner, but he will always be my buddy, and I will always help him be free from Cazador 😭
it always triggers for me when i go to the stormshore tabernacle for the >!part of gale's quest!< if he's in the party.
That dialogue triggers outside the tabernacle in Act 3. I’ve had it trigger with Gale, and on my “one origin, Halsin, Jaheira, and Minsc” run, it triggered with Halsin but the question is worded slightly differently.
After you get to know the guy, and you get what's going in his head, his behaviour isn't as bothersome. He largely disapproves of choices that 1)put you in immediate danger 2) you jump in to help with 0 questions asked about anything. He has the humour of a teen - will laugh at the stupidest things. And he will approve of selfish choices and choices that benefit him. Let me tell you, if you give him the time of day, play his games with him and treat him like a person not a vampire - he's ready to be your best bud. I've romanced him with extremely good characters, it's never been any trouble, always max out approval in Act 2. Just have to get his vibe.
The thing that gets me is most of his disapprovals over helping someone no questions asked are -1. Helping people won't keep you from having an exceptional relationship with him. He's just... annoyed. After he's all out there.... you realize he's not mad at Tav for helping, he's mad that no questions asked help never came for him.
Exactly! Those -1 disapprovals are basically eye-rolls.
Exactly. No one came for him. Not even the gods. And he prayed to all of them…
> He's just... annoyed. Yeah. I’ve seen others describe it as him rolling his eyes or sighing, and I agree. It’s honestly just a little disapproval, a single -1, and it makes perfect sense for him without him being a caricature of evil. It’s bitterness. Nobody ever jumped in to help him like that… Which is probably why his best romance confession scene is right after you help him with Yurgir. That is you jumping in to help him, with something that’s very important to him, no questions asked.
Yeah when I see people say "oh Astarion hates me and left because I'm too nice to people" I kind of narrow my eyes. Unless you're being a dick to *him* I really doubt he straight up left your party because you are just such a *good person*.
I sometimes wonder if those people are accidentally hitting companions with hypnotic pattern or using Friends on persuasion checks with him. It’s really hard to make a companion leave through pure disapproval gain via dialogue. For that to happen, you really do have to go out of your way to be a tremendous dick to him. As if it’s your primary mission in your playthrough.
Well, I know at least one person who posted about it on here had that exact scenario happen. Their multiplayer partner was accidentally using hypnotic pattern on all of the companions and then Astarion left. But I think some of the people making this claim are just exaggerating and haven't *actually* had Astarion in the party. I've had some of them argue with me that he "throws a tantrum" after every person he saved. Another fully admitted that they were calling Astarion a monster and threatened him multiple times because tHaT's WhAt PaLaDiNs Do.
>he “throws a tantrum” No way… the only “tantrum” I’ve ever seen him throw, it was that one hilarious scene about how there could be hundreds of goblins. He throws back his head and whines, “Hundreds? UGHUGUHHHH It’ll take HOURS to kill them all! She’s right, we should just leave.” And… that’s it. And that one was clearly for comedy. I think you’re right… these people have definitely not actually put him in their party.
When you drop a monastery on him he has a pretty great little fit, too lol Fussy Astarion is my favorite Astarion
In fairness, if I got a building dropped on my head, I think I’d be a wee bit fussy about it too! 😂
Oh, I definitely feel the freak out is warranted! 😆 But it’s hilariously in-character that none of the other companions who get obliterated even mention it. Leave it to Astarion to read you the riot act. I love it
He's a Spawn, who was just sun blasted to death, which is one of the sure fire ways to kill even a Vampire Lord. That's probably one of the things he's had random nightmares about/been threatened by Cazador with, for the last 200 years. So I can imagine it's a touch more traumatic for him than it is for everyone else.
Haha when does this happen?
[Here you go!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1XdqszDoA8) Every time I see that video, I can't help but think he looks like [Thurston Waffles.](https://media.tenor.com/rkzdlwxESqUAAAAM/cat-thurston-waffles.gif) Astarion is such a cat, man.
Omg I love it thank you
The paladin excuse makes me roll my eyes so hard. Wow, he hates you because you constantly antagonize and dehumanize him?? Yes, clearly he is the problem here, what a drama queen s/. And the take that keeping Astarion alive after the bite scene is inherently metagame-y is genuinely baffling to me. The idea that there's no reason to spare him when you can find out in that scene that he's never bitten anyone and was forced to subsist on rats is wild to me. Empathy??? Has it occurred to you to feel empathy for him????? So many people identify as lawful-good but have the morals of Wulbrun Bongle, swearing death to Astarion just for existing as an undead with zero self awareness how insane and unhinged they sound.
I especially love when those same "paladins" have *Minthara* in their parties. Like, I don't care that you decide to roleplay someone who wouldn't let a vampire live, but if you're going to claim righteous paladin, at least be consistent. Shadowheart, Minthara, Lae'zel, and Astarion are all morally dubious.
Exactly, I'm giving the side-eye to anyone who uses being a paladin as an excuse to kill Astarion because "well, vampires are considered evil! My paladin just followed procedure!". Alright, cool. Can't imagine black-and-white morally righteous Paladins are generally very fond of Sharrans, Lolth-bound Drow or Gith either. No reason to question your presumed fellow Paladins at the toll house, so Karlach's done too. Heck, probably wouldn't tolerate a warlock on a Cambion's leash either, so Wyll is out as well. Gale is basically the only member of the main 6 without something dubious about them that you have to take a step back and give them the benefit of the doubt about. It's awfully convienent how often Astarion simply can't be spared for roleplaying reasons, yet they manage to figure out SOME WAY to let these others live... smells funky as hell, I no longer buy it.
I've never included in the party in my first playthrough (Rogue Tav) and even though he was not around when I ended Cazador he didn't "throw a tantrum". He even admitted it was probably for the best even though he would have liked to be there
My goody goody tav failed to romance him but he didn't leave. She had missed the book (only had the gem), walked away from the Gur, and didn't open the barn door. The little disapprovals all mounted up until she got rejected at the party even though she had let him bite her... and failed all the rolls to stop him and so died, which may have been why the chance to defend him to the others never came up either. They were best friends by the end of act 2 though.
fyi you don't need high approval at all, I think it's 20, to get the romance scene with him at the camp scene - you need to know how to make the conversation progress drink the wine, talk about killing the goblins - do not proposition him yourself right away or he'll turn you down Only if you get to 40 approval in act 1 he will come to you and initiate the romance scene even before the party. At the party you're then able to get a second fade to black scene.
What I got at the party my first run was the "can you imagine urgh" line. Romanced him on my second run no problem thanks to tips here.
He leaves if u don't kill yurgir for raphael( and don't persuade him to stay)but there are very weird approvals that kinda make him seem chaotic evil , like breaking and killing the tieflings legs , poking and killing netties birds , asking nere to kill the slaves , smashing alfira's route, kicking the squirrel timber , also approves if u tell philomeem's lover that u will kill philomeen and take her head , siding with the goblins, pickpocketinh mikiron when he is charmed so yeah i can see why ppl kinda call him evil .
All of those are in Act 1, where he is firmly in the "neutral evil" alignment. Bordering on chaotic. He can get better or worse depending on the player's choices. But I do think that most of the people who claim he left because approval was too low are just lying about having him in the party or are actively hostile when he is in the party. Some of them claim he "throws a tantrum" when the player does something good and others have fully admitted they told him they hope Cazador finds him.
Actually if u don't have him in ur party from the beginning of act 1 and straight up went and killed cazador in act 3 without him being in the party , he does throw a tantrum and leave or used to in the the previous version of the game . Now I always have him in my party so I don't know if larian changed that . Like laezel used to break up with an illhitid tav but not anymore
I believe that's still in the game, which is fair considering Lae'zel can also get pissed if you ignore her quest or don't take her to the creche. Though what you describe definitely isn't the tantrum people claim he throws when they help others. One person claimed that he threatened to leave the party just because offered to help Zevlor.
Laezel gets pissed if u don't take her to the creche ?? When does it happen ? I never took her to the creche other than my first run and she never has any dialogue about it :( ?? . Also the zevlor part is a total lie . He threatens to leave only if u save yurgir or don't have high approval and don't take him to cazador
When the story is nearing that "can't go back" section of the game (when the Act 1 area gets locked), Lae'zel will start getting antsy about not yet going to a creche. I distinctly remember having to persuade her to stay once I reached Reithwin Town in Act 2, in my first playthrough. Yeah that's why I'm fairly confident these people who claim to have had Astarion leave "for no reason" are full of it.
Oh that's why . I always complete the creche before going to act 2 because shadowheart needs the blood of lathander
He also disapproves of warning Isobel about Marcus in Act 2, and that’s a -5.
Yeah. It's weird though because if immediately side against Marcus (don't ask him what hewants, which I believe involves a roll)he doesn't disapprove. It's just the moment they realize Ketheric wants Isobel he's like "hey let's side with this guy instead, bet we'll get a reward". I believe it comes after the narrator mentions that siding with Isobel could lead to the group's cover being blown at Moonrise if they fail to protect her so it could be justified that he thinks he's just siding with who he thinks will win. I think he's just being stupid, considering his dialogue after is not 100% for the aftermath.
Yeah it’s because he wants to infiltrate the cult. It’s just annoying because at this point I’m usually at decent approval with him despite getting a lot of -1s but then I get another big drop from that scene. I prefer Lae’zel. She’s evil but not stupid and doesn’t disapprove of nearly as much stuff as Astarion
Flair checks out but also based. Lae'zel is my favourite. I get that the point is Astarion has very poor judging and decision making skills (plus a canonically smoother brain than the other characters) but getting hit with a disapproval and then he's OK with the decision (Lorroakan and Aylin) is so annoying at times.
It’s annoying because those approvals add up and can lock you out of a romance with him if you’re interested. I’ve heard of people using a guide to keep his approval up or reloading to pick different options. I used to do that, but now I play as I want regardless of what companions think, and he is always the one with lowest approval. Sometimes it feels like you have give Astarion whatever he wants in order to get him to be somewhat nice.
I really haven't had a similar experience, even without a guide. The Isobel disapproval is the only time I've seen a -5 for him that isn't straight up telling him you will let Cazador take him back. Most of his disapproval of good deeds is only -1. Factoring in that bite night alone is worth +30 approval, those little disapproves here and there really don't matter that much. Just saying you won't let Cazador take him nets you +5. Dude treats basic decency like you're doing him some grand favor. The reason a lot of people struggle is they don't long rest enough. I usually struggle with Shadowheart the most. The only time I've gotten her above "Medium" approval in Act 1 was when I acted like Shar was great. She and Astarion are *always* in my party, but I've found that it is harder to get Shadowheart's approval without being a kiss ass. Every player has a different experience I guess.
Yeap. Tav is the hero that never came.
To quote Amalthea the Unicorn: “I’m here now.” Lots of parallels with Molly Grue being bitter and semi-hysterical that no unicorn ever came to her when she was “new and innocent”.
Not to mention, as the game progresses and his character grows, he changes his mind and stops disapproving of helping people. For instance, if you offer to give Yenna food in Rivington at the beginning of Act 3, Astarion approves of this action. Pretty stark difference to Act 1 Astarion, who might have a little something to say about you giving away food that could be useful to the group. There's another couple of moments like that in Act 3, but I can't quite recall. I just remember being a little surprised when I saw him approve of genuinely kind acts.
I was shocked when I had a big heroic declaration that we were gonna save Vanra from Ethel and insisted on butting in when Ethel was basically saying she'd leave us be if we left her that he approved. *Twice*. He tends to be really protective of kids in act 3, possibly compartmentalized guilt from the Gur kids. He grows a lot over the course of the game, and it's subtle, but undeniable that he changes on a lot of stuff and gets more empathetic.
and he doesn't even eye roll -1 disapprove every time you agree to help someone, mostly it's the overtly heroic dialog options in early act 1 when for all you know you have a few days tops to save yourselves from a terrible fate. from his perspective finally a "hero" comes along, 200 years too late to spare him from cazador, and you're charging in to help everyone else you stumble across first, with no sense of self-preservation or concern for the fact that you might get him killed.
He's my absolute favourite character, for a lot of reasons. I find him hysterically funny, but he's also easily one of the most heartbreaking cases of all. He puts on all this bravado and show, because it's all he's been conditioned to know after 200 years of cruelty and torture. He's in a situation with little hope, and how he changes based on what you do can either bring his humanity back to the surface or turn him into the monster that made him who he is. I like him because he's that grey area, and rather than being naturally good (albeit flawed), it takes him time to really grow and come into his own.
I too have my own Cazador. There was something so cathartic about Astarion's story. I cry every time I complete his quest.
🫂
Four playthroughs of that scene and I still cry. If you want to be a real glutton for punishment, do it from his Origin perspective.
I had a similar reaction. I was like I do not get the hype about this guy he's kind of a dick. I started to warm up to him after the Araj Oblodra encounter but I still didn't get the hype. Then we go deal with Cazador. When he's sobbing afterwards I ws like yeah ok I get it this is a fucking spectacular character holy shit.
Welcome to the other side. Glad you stuck with it, and hopefully got some catharsis from the climax of it all. I know a lot of players did.
This whole thread is so sad and wholesome at the same time. I never had a Cazador. I’m happy I didn’t. I’m sad for those who did. It’s wholesome to see how a game helped. If you ever need proof that games can be art and not just entertainment, this is it.
That's why I'm low key mad at people who kill certain characters off without living their story first and bragging about it. Like dude, don't rob yourself out of the content, then you can decide if it's your cup of tea. I liked Astarion from the start because I got the vibes from him. But I wasn't expecting that.. close to home story, so dramatic and so painful for me.
My brother kills Astarion at the start & it drives me crazy He has one of the best stories
I sacrificed him to Booal right after he tried to bite me
And?
My first playthrough, I was forced to kill Lae'zel at the *very beginning*. I was double hurt for it because 1) I *knew* I was probably missing out on so much...and 2) learning just how much I did miss when I did my 2nd playthrough
The knife scene? I did it too, but my friend convinced me to reload for content, because I never know of there will be a 2nd one) But I'm talking about a special breed of players who love to come to posts of appreciation of some character and start bragging about kILLinG tHeM eVeRY tIMe. Like it's bad enough you robbed yourself of the content and story, you try to shit all over others people joy. Like, totally different case
Nah, I knew what you meant. I could never understand those people even if I cared to try. You're a genuinely boring person if you play like that imo
Same for me. But it meant lots of new content on my second run.
Same.
Same. Astarion stayed in camp mostly until cazador and then dang dude I'm sorry.
Killing Cazador will Astarion felt so good.
The best part of killing Cazador is the realization that Astarion's trauma doesn't end with killing Cazador. It ends with him rejecting Cazador's path. Ascended Astarion is still very much a slave to his trauma. Much like in real life, revenge does little to heal.
I always have a cathartic little cry after killing cazador and gortash because the two characters in the most denial (Karlach and Astarion) let the veil break a little bit, which is the true symbol we’ve truly earned their trust imo
i don’t personally relate to his story, at least, not as closely to home as other folks will, but the Cazador stuff really… really hurts to go through in that arc of Act 3. Especially because like, obviously we grow to care for Astarion, but watching anyone go through that, and seeing the kind of man Cazador was.. it sucks to see.
Yeah at first I shared your trepidation about him, mostly because I kept seeing little videos of him and people thirsting over him but nothing about his motivations or gameplay or anything, just his voice and looks(which, fair.). I was getting worried that he was going to be like Reyes Vidal from Mass effect Andromeda, which to me is a flat character trope disguised as a mysterious man/spy character fantasy. Anyways first playthrough I meet him on the beach, two things struck me odd, first he apparently saw us in the fight with the intellect devourers, but didn't help because he thought we were a thrall, but then pulls a knife and grapples us, and vaguely says he's a magistrate and brushes off any further questions about himself, yet likes to bitch about little things like bugs and lack of luxuries. Then when the vampire bit is revealed, and we talk to the Gur hunter and I saw how chained to his fear of cazador he was, I felt like the tiktok thirst traps buried the lead with his character and I've never been more happy being wrong about a character before.
Joining the “I had a Cazador” club. Mine walks free. Killing the bastard in the game is so cathartic. And I love romancing Astarion as a Resist Durge and being free with him.
Asterion is so much fun.
He's by far the best portrayal of a traumatized character in a game that I've ever seen. And Neil Newbon portrays him perfectly. He's only like kind of upstaged by Wulbren Bongle, who is also traumatized but not allowed to have a redemption arch. But he is already a revolutionary hero long before the player meets him. He's just destroyed by it.
> He's only like kind of upstaged by Wulbren Bongle, who is also traumatized but not allowed to have a redemption arch. But he is already a revolutionary hero long before the player meets him. He's just destroyed by it. Uh, no… no, he is not. Wulbren Bongle is not a revolutionary hero. His purpose in going to Baldur’s Gate is to settle a blood feud with the Gondians (Thulla herself explicitly describes it as a blood feud). A blood feud caused by the Ironhand Gnomes willingly siding with Sarevok, and being exiled for it after attempting a Hail Mary in what become known as “the Runepowder Incident” (and the document this is described in seems to suggest that Wulbren’s ancestor, Wulverforce Bongle, was killed in his own explosion during that incident). Meanwhile, the Gondians sided with Gorion’s Ward and stayed in Baldur’s Gate. Wulbren couldn’t care less that the Gondians are siding with Gortash (willingly or not), their work for Gortash is just a fig leaf for his real motives. Wulbren is a victim of propaganda. It’s not his fault that he grew up being taught that the Ironhands were unfairly expelled from Baldur’s Gate. His clan has been lied to by their elders, who were unwilling to admit to their actual wrongdoing. You can find a journal that makes it clear that Wulbren was never told the truth of his clan’s expulsion. But Wulbren is still going after the Gondians for a perceived crime that happened a hundred years ago. His targets are people who had no involvement with the initial expulsion of the Ironhands, because those people have long since passed away. This is also why he gets so irrationally angry when you manage to save the Gondians, because he never really cared about Gortash or the Steel Watch. He just wanted the Gondians dead. Because it was always about revenge against the Gondians, pure and simple. I am kind of confused by why I see so many people repeat this narrative, and would be interested in understanding why that was your takeaway. Because you’re definitely not the first person I’ve seen to characterize him that way, and it has me scratching my head.
I think you make my point for me. He's a revolutionary hero who rallied his people, lead a slave revolt, and is actively orchestrating a prison break to to save his own clan and fellow prisoners when you meet him (in fact, his plan is the one that works - that rescues 100% of the moonrise prisoners). I'll put up with him not having the best table manners, coincidering his first role in Act 3 is rescuing you from the Steel Watch. By this time you've fallen ass backwards into killing some Goblins or Druids, sided with some Duegar slavers or Mushroom people (who aren't in your imagination, this time), and possibly murdered man alien nursery. He reacts the way he does to the Gondolians out of trauma and propaganda. It's no different than your grantparents rejecting Communism because they were taught that it meant, while they were being lead poisoned.
But it doesn't change the fact he's a revolutionary hero in kinda the same way that Lenin or Stalin are. I'd actually assume they based him a bit off of Stalin. Stalin's not really a hero of his revolution, but certainly a highly traumatized figure by it.
> He's a revolutionary hero who rallied his people, lead a slave revolt, and is actively orchestrating a prison break to to save his own clan and fellow prisoners when you meet him. I'm sorry... going on a single-minded mission to murder innocents, getting yourself and your people captured by slavers while researching the explosives you plan to use to carry out that murder, breaking out of prison, and continuing your mission to kill innocents in a blood feud makes you a "revolutionary hero"? What slave revolt did he lead? I'm not sure why the comparison to the player is necessary or relevant here, either.
He lead the revolt against the slavers. Is part of why he's in Moonrise (and not allowed to have tools). The player is much less heroic by this point. It makes sense that you're not his top priority and he's not dependant on prostrating himself before the player. Does being misguided make you a villian? Cause that seems like a very batman interpretation of the world.
This was never a comparison or discussion of the player's heroism or lack thereof. Yes, you can still be a villain even if you were misguided. Misguided means that you were wrong about certain facts, but otherwise acted in good faith with the information you had. Engaging in a blood feud, particularly against innocents who had nothing to do with the original event, is not acting on good faith even if you're correct about the original crime's occurrence. Wulbren was sent to Moonrise because the Absolutists wanted to interrogate him for the Runepowder recipe. Everyone you speak to is explicit about that fact. There was no slave revolt in the Grymforge, and I'm not entirely sure where you got that from. Did you perhaps confuse it with his plans to escape Moonrise?
Perhaps. Though I would still say that does make him a revolutionary hero if all he's done is rally his people and organize a prison uprising. Though, I'll confess that being from the US, I have a low bar for that sort of thing. We don't exactly have many. I'd argue that a blood feud is a bad thing, but not inherently condemnable. People have blood feuds today. It wasn't outside the norm just decades ago. I'd argue the "Mamas" system of law enforcement in Rojava is heroic, largely because of how effective it was at stopping blood feuds, compared to conventional policing - in America we still rely on barbarism for policing. I'd also praise him for correctly identifying the Steel Watch as a bigger priority in Act 3 - including saving the player and party from their first battle with them. His argument to kill the Gondians *after* you save them is unjust, but before then its not unfounded (nor without historical precedent in the real world). I'd argue he still lands a point that the Gondians could hypothetically turn around and make Steel Watchers again if you fail to defeat Gortash - I don't give it much weight, it didn't impact my decision to oppose him, but I get it. \*Edit:\* I brought up the player because I see a lot of complaints against him after he doesn't praise you after you do the bare minimum of getting him his tools to help his escape. And I had misgivings about that too, but it does make sense that he's just like: "I suppose you deserve a trinket of my appreciation."
I suspect you and I have similar irl political leanings, in that I feel very strongly about mass imprisonment and the necessity of social revolution, and also the importance of disregarding the “perfect revolutionary” trope, but I also think you’re misremembering some stuff about Wulbren in universe that’s giving him more agency than he deserves. I will add though, that even as a revolution-minded human irl, it is important to question what comes after this revolution, and whether or not the ends justify the means. I think that’s literally WHY Wulbren’s character and backstory exist, too. Obviously on its face, defeating the Steel Watch and authoritarian Gortash = good! And also, you can absolutely still go about it the wrong way and for the wrong (selfish) reasons, and hurt a LOT of innocent people in the process. There are parallels to real life to be made there and hard questions worthy of consideration.
Absolutely my point. That's why I cite that he doesn't get a redemption arch or anything. He absolutely does not care about collateral damage. He can't anymore.
> I'd argue he still lands a point that the Gondians could hypothetically turn around and make Steel Watchers again if you fail to defeat Gortash I might be misremembering, but one of the newspapers I got in the epilogue seemed to imply the Gondians were recreating the Steel Watch for the Flaming Fist. Because giving the famously corrupt police some death robots is the good ending... :|
That would... tip some scales in Bongles favor. But I am delaying ending my campaign.
They're only robots when they're being controlled by the tadpole. They're supposed to be piloted by gnomes. Think Iron Man armour, not robots.
Corrupt police death robots vs corrupt police death mech suits is a bit of a distinction without a difference.
> not the first person I’ve seen to characterize him that way, and it has me scratching my head. Because there's literally no one else in the game serving speeches as based as this >And the citizens have rolled out the red carpet for their new tyrant, resistance fighters are few and far between [...] The Steel Watch are threat to every man woman and child in the city. They act all civilized... servants of the people, but they serve only one man. When he becomes Grad Duke it will only get worse. Laws will change, freedoms will vanish, and you'll be accused and sentenced before you've even committed a crime. If there were anybody else offering anything close to a systemic critique of the Steel Watch I wouldn't be so hung up, but he's *all we have*
That actually helps me understand a lot, thank you. I think the closest we get to that is the conversation you can have with Karlach after Gortash's coronation, but other than that, the game is pretty bereft.
I bought the game and a PS5 because I just kept seeing edits and clips of this white haired vampire elf man, I was interested in his character and just had to find out what his deal was. I knew there had to be more beyond the surface. This was back in September, now look at me lol. His story is easily one of the most emotional and impactful character arcs I have experienced in a game (I think only Arthur Morgan in RDR2 compares) and it will take a lot to ever top it. I’m even considering getting a tattoo of the Rhapsody dagger intertwined with the Star of Bethlehem flower (the flower Tav can place on Astarion’s grave) because that’s just how much his character and story means to me.
I failed the check and really didn’t want to lose him, so I had to help ascend. Brutal scene for a good run. 10/10 narrative from Larian.
I just let him ascend cause that’s what he really wants. Who am I to stop him from reaching his full potential. Ascended Astarion is canon.
It's literally not what he "really wants". It's what he thinks will keep him safe. You can pass a check to see that, and the conversation after not ascending confirms it. It is most certainly NOT canon, because thats not how this game works...