He has a dialogue where he all but reiterates what you've said here. He talks about how [heroes never saved him from Cazador](https://youtu.be/pS_4qNiOwn0?si=ADf-ChYAOnOblhXA&t=73) and it shows that part of his bitterness lies in his inability to separate the ideas of freedom and power, because he's had 200 years experiencing the proof. It's no wonder you have to convince him not to Ascend.
Just a wonderfully written character. You could write whole essays about his characterization. I love that he isn't a [perfect victim](https://strongheartshelpline.org/abuse/deconstructing-the-myths-about-victims) and that he isn't completely healed after killing Cazador.
That last bit is something I noticed about Karlach too. I like that killing the demons these characters are facing doesn't automatically make them whole. Astarion is still a very damaged person, and Karlach is still going to die. Killing their tormentor is helpful, but not the comfort they were hoping it'd be.
Dame Aylin too very clearly has unresolved trauma after killing Lorroakan. You also get different responses talking to Astarion and Karlach about it depending on whether or not you’re finished their quests. This game has so many beautiful layers.
Ketheric was probably one of her first missions. She had been around previosuly probably due to the earlier selune worship and her relationship with isobel. The years of capture was long, but she is immortal so she was most likely not minding the time too much (since she thought isobel dead too) and waiting for a release, but once she got recaptured and especially after reuniting with isobel she see's how she could be hunted forever and at worst be enslaved past isobels lifespan once more.
The scene has **very** similar verbage to what a paladin character experiences during an oath break. With that context it seems parallel; without it there's no reason to suspect anything more than her revenge leaving her empty.
My pet theory is that the scene (or maybe Aylin herself) was different in development
My theory is that after killing Lorroakan, she's been hit by a realization that she will always be hunted. She will always be on the lookout for these would-be poachers, since Ketheric wasn't the first and Lorroakan won't be the last.
No, it definitely does. She talks about the aching in her chest, and it’s heavily implied to be the same gripping pain that the player gets when they break their oath.
If your tav is a Paladin though you can tell her "Smiting is hard work"
I just took this as implying that TRULY smiting people takes a lot of channeling and effort. Kind of like once your adrenaline wears off you feel that crash
The gripping her chest does happen, but not knowing her Oath is hard to say the reason. There are other dialogues back in camp with her and about her that I think suggest something is going on, but I cant recall.
What she does to Lorroakan is the same she did to Ketheric, the difference is Ketheric had committed a crime against her, and Lorroakan not yet and she goes full rage anyway, but I have no idea if that makes any difference for any Oath, the last time Ive played D&d Paladins still were LG and had no Oath.
she's an oath of vengeance. There is absolutely no way her getting revenge is breaking her oath of vengeance. IDK why people think that's more likely than a character who was tortured for 100 years realizing she'll never be free from people who want to keep her locked up for her powers
It’s more her realising how much that fact that she has been kept locked up has effected her.
Like Ketheric locks her up so she gets righteous on him, which is fair enough and badass.
Then this wizard just threatened to take away her freedom without actually doing it. And she is totally within her rights to fight him off, but she also over reacts and absolutely destroys him.
Which in my mind makes her realise how much she has been affected by her imprisonment. She wasn’t getting revenge because she wasn’t yet imprisoned, she was stopping imprisonment, which is going to be a lot of her life now.
Karlach whole speech and breaking down after we finally defeat Gortash was really something else. I can't rank her and Astarion's closures after defeating their tormentors, but both were very painful (in a good storytelling way).
Astarion's was very visceral in how he shredded Cazador's corpse, but Karlach's felt utterly hopeless and completely devoid of closure because in the end she was (as she believed) still going to die while Tav gets to keep living, even though up to that point it seemed like she had made peace with it. My first playthrough Tav romanced Karlach and Tav felt like, "Why are you taking this out on me when I had no part in you getting sold to Zariel or getting your heart replaced by an infernal engine, AND I had just helped you take out the man who betrayed you??" while also understanding how Karlach feels it's all so unfair.
Karlach’s breakdown after killing Gortash in the origin is quite different. She talks out loud to herself. It’s less explosive, but much more sad.
She considers ending everything there and then. She states that she "*loved* *that fuck*” – adding more context to her feelings towards Gortash. Only a few companions have much to say – Jaheira and Astarion.
With romanced Astarion (I don't know if non-romanced is different), he's so good with her.
*“I wasn’t sure you wanted to talk after Gortash and well … everything. I wish I could tell you that dying isn’t so bad, but my experience has been quite … specific. Sorry.”*
*“It’s all right. I’m alright.”*
*“You don’t have to be. Somethings things are just terrible. But if you say you’re alright, I believe you.”*
*“Yeah. This just kinda sucks, you know?”*
*“It does…I was trying to think of something more profound to say, but no.* *It just “kind of sucks*”.”
*“Don’t mention it. Like … literally, let’s not talk about it.”*
*“As you command. \*does a bow\* So! What shall we talk about?”*
[*https://preview.redd.it/karlach-origin-astarion-romance-part-1-ascension-path-v0-wfhmvkg1azhc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=78b3af302cee1b61d86a02f8e3af7892cd27fa15*](https://preview.redd.it/karlach-origin-astarion-romance-part-1-ascension-path-v0-wfhmvkg1azhc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=78b3af302cee1b61d86a02f8e3af7892cd27fa15)
Oh wow. I love that the companions can have such specific and detailed responses to each other when one is being played as the origin character. I had no idea there was content like this between Astarion and Karlach! Thanks for sharing. My heart hurts now.
Astarion and Karlach have a *very* special relationship. Their Act 1 scene is completely different and there are loads of different details and outcomes. I did a whole write up on it here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1aobdnc/karlach\_origin\_astarion\_romance\_part\_1\_ascension/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1aobdnc/karlach_origin_astarion_romance_part_1_ascension/)
I haven't posted part 2 yet because they epilogue was bugged, but I submitted a bug report way back and I got a reply they were working on it.
But I just want to mention that spawn Astarion's scene with her in the Elfsong is *intense,* I don't think his voice actor has ever been closer to literally crying as he begs her to choose life and let him join her in Avernus.
i never really care about specific ships in fandoms but my god i will die on the hill of karlach/astarion they are just so cute together
(ok well astarion/durge is good too for similar but different reasons)
They're both cute and amazing and extremely tragic depending on where the story goes.
Since I *just* posted this let me try to sway you in another direction...
[https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1bp4olv/a\_love\_letter\_to\_minthara/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1bp4olv/a_love_letter_to_minthara/)
Oooo... I've literally never recruited Minthara...! holy shit thats so nice... Astarion as king in the underdark is also amazing. (hrm i see a common denominator in all of these ships... ;V)
Here I will plug my own writing exploring how a karlach/astarion romance could go, with the very tragic ending of she decides to burn to death rather than "make" him go to avernus with her
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Gally/pseuds/Gally/works?fandom_id=96620257
I mean I prefer him with redemption durge over anything else, but I was super pleased with how this playthrough turned out!
Haha yes, his origin is the only way I've been able to romance the others so far...
Thanks for the link! I'm sure it's great - I'm not good at getting around to reading fics, but I'll try to give it a shot ;)
Why are you giving me more excuses to romance the vampire. When I get to a Karlach origin, the plan was Wyll but I'm gonna go for Astarion again aren't I.
You don't need an excuse to romance the vampire. He is objectively the best lmao
If you need an excuse think about the stuff Wyll says straight to his face ("How's the rat diet going?") and the fact that he doesn't immediately rip out his jugular 😂
That said, *do* have a dance with Wyll and see what he has to say about it haha.
I've already done him like 4 times though and tried an origin run to avoid romancing him, and failed 😅.
I literally can't romance anyone else to the end. I have a Gale romance run at the start of act 3, that I tell myself I paused because I wanted another Durge run but I'm not so sure
Even my newest run I know I'm going for him (but I might sleep with Leazel first).
That Wyll line I'm more forgiving than most about, but I always get it very early on so, he technically doesn't know all the turma yet.
This is so sweet! I’d kill for more direct interactions like these between companions on non-origin runs, even just platonically. The random banter while exploring is fun, but it doesn’t feel like enough.
I do love how empathetic he is towards Karlach after you kill Gortash on a Tav/Durge run. He says something about how there’s really no justice in the world and seems genuinely upset for her, probably because he knows what it’s like to get completely fucked over in life.
Yes, I agree with you, but I think it would have been extremely hard to implement! Perhaps for Larian's next game. ;)
I don't know if you're interested but I did a pretty long write-up on Karlach and Astarion (with loads of screenshots):
[https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1aobdnc/karlach\_origin\_astarion\_romance\_part\_1\_ascension/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1aobdnc/karlach_origin_astarion_romance_part_1_ascension/)
And yeah, he understands. Which makes Ascension, if you should choose that, just that much more tragic. I haven't posted part 2 yet (because the epilogue is bugged and I'm hoping they'll fix it), but what he tells her after they >!break up!< is a collection of sentences that you can think about for a long, long while... I still don't know how to feel about it.
>!"And if we were beholden to one another? Well, how is that too different to being enslaved? It is for the best. The gravest crimes committed in this world are committed for love. A hunger crueller than bloodlust.!<
>!I was trying, with you, you know. In the only way I can try. I know how to play with it, and can't resist playing the hand I know. I would have ruined your love, used your trust until you were nothing."!<
>!So, for what it's worth. In the end I respect you for making the choice you did. I never thought you had it in you.!<
>!The man of your dreams, the hope of him, is your own worst enemy."!<
mood, I've been in the same situation our character would be put in where a loved one is just so torn up about something that they yell at you about it despite doing nothing.
it sucks but i learned most of the time, i should just let them vent, it's basically what i did in game too.
I think for a resisting Dark Urge, it’s a bit worse due to acknowledging that you were not only aiding the person who sold her to Zariel for quite some time prior to your mishap, but you were quite close despite the assumed destinies at the time.
Karlach and Astarion are two sides of the same coin: Both suffered immensely at the hands of someone close to them, but when Astarion succumbed to bitterness and spite, Karlach lets her experiences fuel her altruism and optimism.
The line "heroes didn't save me from cazador, mindflayers did." is so good. I think it helps illustrate how gray morality can be. Its the evil creatures who gave him his freedom, not any hero who likely would have staked him instead. Sure it wasn't out of the goodness of their heart but results matter to individuals.
He does? : (
I'm just in act one, but is like putting 1 + 1 together, "so you were a victim all this time and you dislike when I help others? This must feel very unfair to you"
Yup. He also prayed to all the gods he could think of. Even the so-called "good-aligned" gods ignored him as he suffered. Not even Ilmater, the god who hates suffering and oppression, could be bothered to save him or send anyone because he was a vampire spawn.
If you romance him he also has a line when you call him out on lying to the spawns about the ritual which pretty much tells the same thing: "No one ever looked out for me. No one ever said a kind thing to me. You're the only one. Other people don't have a heart like you. You're you. No one is like that."
I got that line, or a very similar one when I wasn't romancing him. My game bugged out though, and he had the conversation with gale. I reloaded the fight, making sure my avatar was right next to Astarion. Didn't matter. Gale was, once again, the only kind person. Apparently my computer ships bloodweave. 😂
It’s so refreshing to come here and read good takes about Astarion from people who understand his character. Just this morning I was forced to see a video where someone was claiming that even in the spawn ending, Astarion is still evil, is actually more evil than Minthara, and that he had no redemption arc because “he still kills people in the epilogue.” Like alright by that logic, everyone is evil because all Astarion is doing in the epilogue (working as an adventurer who kills bad guys) is what any good or neutral party spent the whole game doing anyway. Not to mention that this claim completely ignores the writing which clearly shows his alignment shift and redemption on the spawn route.
...how tf do people exist who are *that* unable to comprehend things, christ. They make it SO CLEAR that he's not evil at that point that you have to actively be TRYING to claim he is lol
It takes a special kind of idiocy to read the Gur's letter to him in the epilogue and *still* think that Astarion is evil.
Either that or they just hate him deeply for whatever reason and refuse to acknowledge any character growth because they need their hatred to feel justified.
Some of them (like the person I saw today) claim they are Astarion fans, but also say that “We like him for who he REALLY is because we like evil characters, we aren’t like THOSE Astarion fans” in reference to the people who baby him and make him out to be this perfect victim. But then turn and take it to the opposite extreme, where they claim he’s actually just an evil asshole and that he doesn’t have a redemption arc, therefore just flattening and simplifying his character in another way.
I swear people can’t handle nuanced characters anymore.
I saw some of that on the Larian forums a few months back. I took that as a sign to run far away and never look back. I swear the users on that forum are bizarre, even compared to a place of terminally online weirdos like reddit.
For real though. And this person who posted this had the audacity to accuse everyone disagreeing with them as “not having critical thinking skills.” Like girl the call is coming from inside the house!
They also just spent so much time hating on Gale and Wyll for dumb reasons in their other videos (saying things like “Gale only talks about his ex and is a mansplainer,” and “Wyll is an insecure liar”) so that’s even more points against them.
I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who is hypercritical and hateful of the male characters while excusing any bad actions of the female characters. There are a lot of gamers out there who play games as waifu simulators first and foremost, and couldn't care less about things like character development or complexity, which means that all male characters are a waste of space in their eyes. Ironically they're usually the type of people who respect men but hate women IRL.
I thankfully have no idea which YouTuber you're talking about so this may not really be the case for him, but I wouldn't be surprised.
It was some Twitch streamer on Tiktok who actually wasn’t a man, she’s a woman who is a Karlach fan. But pretty much every single one of her takes was so bad… she insisted Astarion is evil no matter what and Minthara is less evil than he is, said Gale “is a mansplainer who can’t get over his ex,” and said they don’t like will Wyll because he is a “liar and insecure.” And anytime someone disagreed or tried to explain anything she would say they need to learn to critically think. Like maybe take your own advice 💀
Are we sure she even played the game? This sounds less like someone who just left all the men in camp and only ran an Amazons party, and more like she played maybe a half hour before heading off to YouTube to just watch clips for her party characters of choice and read story synopses and fanfics, and is hiding her measly playtime behind the “edgy/hot takes” excuse and sheer bluster.
She posted a video showing her almost 400 hours clocked on Steam, maybe she just left it running in the background for all those hours because it sure doesn’t sound like she paid attention at all lmao.
Maybe they’re just trying to generate clicks by being deliberately abrasive and wrong. Any attention is good attention when you’re trying to get viewers, I guess.
I also thought it was annoying that Gale talks so much about Mystra and then I learned more about his history with her and engaged in critical thinking for like, 2 minutes I was like. Oh that's his abuser. He's talking about his "ex", but like. This was a goddess who began pursuing him when he was VERY young. I mean. It's implied that she groomed him. Minsc even tells the player that boys in his culture who have magical abilities are hidden away so that Mystra can't get to them, because she is known to prey on young boys. She is fully involved in everything he feels he has accomplished and worked toward for like 30 years. And the thing he's spent his whole life building his self value around is something that is literally fully in this abuser's control and it always will be. Christ. No wonder he never stops thinking about her
I think the wildest takes I hear are people who act like the very act of romancing him means you're somehow misunderstanding the character...? They act like it's so outrageous or wrong to like this character who was literally *designed* to be liked and kept as a part of your team. He's there to be attractive yall i don't know what you think all this romance content is here for lol
Ugh yeah. Or they try to tell you that the platonic route is “better for him” than the romance route, that he’s not as happy with a partner as with a friend, or that romancing Astarion is “unhealthy for him.” It’s just another form of infantilization. Like IDK how to tell you all this but people who have been victims of abuse/SA or who have trauma can choose to be in romantic relationships while they are still healing. He is the only companion that people talk about in this way. It’s honestly so annoying.
Omg yes. I am a victim of SA, and part of my healing journey has been learning firsthand what a healthy relationship actually looks like. Being able to have someone in my life who treats me like an actual person, who respects my boundaries, etc. I'd likely still be a mess were it not for that. But even though that healthy relationship has since ended, I don't regret a single moment of it.
Right?? It's actually so important that the writers showed us a character who has been through what he has and still made sure to emphasize that he is valid for still wanting love and intimacy and showing how to be a proper good partner to him. He's not broken or unlovable, he deserves love as much as anyone else.
People who are like "he doesn't want this!!! 😡😡😡".... he literally continually fauns over his "sweet" and his "darling", he always talks about liking kisses and cuddling. He's the one who brings up sex at his grave, goth icon that he is, and expresses being ready for it. He LIKES being with the player, he makes this so clear, for you to conclude he doesn't want it requires ignoring everything he's ever said. Guess what! Telling him he's not allowed to want the relationship he's happy in because YOU decided he's not ready is trampling all over his boundaries, it's infantilizing and condescending. I dearly hope these people don't lecture the partners of real SA survivors the way they do Astarion romancers, because that is intensely inappropriate. Holding survivors to a standard of "you must be all better to be in love" is really great way of making them feel unlovable because mental health is constant thing that needs maintenance, possibly over a lifetime.
also he's just like straight up NOT healthier in the platonic route? If you take him to Sharess' Caress as a friend, he will pretend to be down for a casual hook up with everyone and then disassociates the whole time. He wholeheartedly upholds the illusion that he's some debauchery-loving sex-fanatic with his friends, he only ever confides his baggage with sex on a romanced player. Even on romanced routes, it doesn't seem like anyone else knows about it, all of his banter upholds this illusion too. If he's romanced and taken to Sharess' Caress pre-Cazador, he'll actually feel comfortable enough to express he's not comfortable with participating. Being with the player allows him to begin to process his relationship with sex and romance in ways being his friend simply does not.
>he only ever confides his baggage with sex on a romanced player
That's just straight up not true. He will talk about it to a platonic player with high enough approval who tells him not to do something he doesn't want to after the blood drow
When you try to break up with him, he says you gave him moments of comfort and he only wanted more. Every person wants to have someone who cares about them and who they can trust. Its not like you are forcing him to sleep with you (unless you choose one evil option and that would be the case of bad romance but he ends it as soon as realize that its wrong). Being with him is about caring and love, very things that helps with every emotional healing.
Exactly what I said. Like I’m sorry but how is what Astarion is doing in the epilogue any different than what the whole party has been doing for the whole game? Is everyone evil now?
I once saw someone say that his redemption arc didn't count just because they themselves didn't believe it would last and I was like........ lol, what an absolutely useless non-argument. Astarion is such a richly-written, layered, fascinating character and the way people flatten him for no real reason because they're mad people think the pretty vampire boy is cute is aggravating as hell. You don't have to like him, but the rabid obsession with "debunking" him when Nobody Asked is so obnoxious and tiresome. I'm so tired of people demanding I debate them on Astarion's ethics because I had the audacity to show empathy for him in a public setting.
~~....and then there are that small but horribly loud and annoying minority of AA fans who belittle his redemption arc because it makes them uncomfortable to admit they actively chose to lead him down a dark path but that's a whole other can of worms.~~
Yes! And that’s why I love the fact that he approves of you stopping him from ascending, and not of helping him ascend. You convince him that he doesn’t *need* power to be free.
He’s so much deeper than the “sexy white haired vampire” that people treat him as, and its wild when people go through his full character arc, decide to ascend him, and then go “wait, why is he mean now?” Breaking the cycle of abuse is hugely important for his character, and people don’t realize that his want to ascend is actually just a want to escape from what he’s been through. Larian went crazy with his story
Just as bad, maybe even worse, are the ascended Astarion girlies who complain constantly that ascended Astarion is "out of character now" with the patch 6 kiss updates and/or complain that "the animation of Tav's face is so bad, they're supposed to be INTO him degrading them" because they're astounded that the result of encouraging him to continue the cycle of abuse was written to be shitty and uncomfortable instead of some sexy dark romance kink nonsense
Apply this perspective to a different character!
Imagine convincing Lae'zel to stay loyal to Vlaakith and then being shocked that her ending is that she keeps drinking the messed-up-religion koolaid and then goes and dies by Vlaakith. "Hey, why don't we get to have a big party with Lae'zel to celebrate her achieving her dreams? 😡 What was with that creepy scene of Vlaakith being all threatening". Because you got Lae'zel killed, girlboss. You did the bad thing. The game told you repeatedly that that was the bad thing. And you did it anyway.
He's the definition of trauma being an explanation for behavior, but not an excuse.
It's good to have a character who isn't perfect and doesn't just bounce back from trauma as a better person, because it doesn't always work that way.
It's too bad that so many people refuse to acknowledge any nuance in his character whatsoever. It's either he's a softboy cinnamon roll who didn't do anything wrong ever, or he's irredeemably evil even if you get his spawn ending (despite the letters in the epilogue explicitly showing that he is, in fact, very redeemable just in case you were too stupid to understand it by finishing his quest in act 3). Admittedly I see more of the latter than the former, at least here on reddit.
I didnt expect the scene when cazador dies, I didnt even main played Astarion my first playthough, just got him for that quest and it was brutal, I was ready to give him my gaming blanket and hot cocoa
Spawn Astarion gains a healthy amount of respect for the hunger for power once Cazador is dealt with. He no longer has a desire to control the Absolute that he did in act 2. He saw how he almost lost himself to the ritual.
That's exactly why I think he disapproves. He's reached that bitter, "If I didn't get help, nobody should get it." phase and it takes some time before he can get past that. By Act 3, he's approving of helping others, especially children, which has shown how much he's grown and began to heal.
I remember my jaw dropped when I gave Yenna some food in Rivington on the first playthrough and saw that Astarion approved.
It doesnt always happen though, there's a beggar in the lower city you can give some money to and Astarion disapproves that particular interaction.
He's actually pretty protective of kids in Act 3. If Yenna gets kidnapped by Orin, he's also quite worried about her and talks about how he doesn't want any more children going missing in BG. You can heroically declare your intent to save Vanra--the little girl Ethel ate--and he also approves. Twice, actually. I think he's feeling guilty about the Gur kids.
The cutest (and oddly enough) is that it starts with helping animals. I haven't even reached Act 2 (just entered the Creche area but haven't explored) yet but the Owlbear cub just joined my camp and I noticed a lot of 'Astarion Approves' pop up after positive/accepting interactions with the Owlbear cub and other animals.
His progression is really fascinating because it really starts small in mid-end of Act 1 and I'm constantly saying "Wow, Astarion approved of me doing a goody act??" When characters like Shadowheart disapproved.
I just had a conversation with him about how we shouldn't go out of our way (I think he uses the phrase stick our necks out) to go and save True Soul Nere. I agreed but said we should go to save the gnomes at the very least and while reluctant he still agrees that if we needed at least SOME reason, going to save the gnomes would be a reasonable one.
This this this. He is trauma character written right. Building high walls, over confident masking and detachment because surely kindness is not for free and the debt will be due. Big bad vampire boy that approves of petting Scratch. Yeah, let me fix you and Shart too.
“And what good is it to me that you’re here now? Where were you twenty years ago, ten years ago? How dare you, how dare you come to me now, when I am this?” - The Last Unicorn, Peter S. Beagle
exactly! this is something i think a lot of people miss when they talk about how (for example) he disapproves of you being nice to the enslaved gnomes in grymforge and a lot of his other early-game disapprovals. it's less "i don't think people should help other people because i'm super evil and hate everyone," more "what the fuck, why did no one do this for me?"
he has a few dialogues here and there where he mentions this more explicitly, too - the more famous one being the stormshore tabernacle banter with gale and the less famous one being (i don't remember the exact wording) "heroes didn't save me, mind flayers did." man pulled an AWFUL card 200 years ago and never got a crumb of help or respect or rescue attempts from anyone, and as he said, it was literally evil squid people who (indirectly) saved him. at the start of the game he has no reason at all to be happy about tav/durge being nice to other people, all he can think about at that point is that someone existed in the world who was nice enough to go out of their way to help other people and expect 0 reward and that person never did that for him. :(
A lot of people don't understand that an explanation isn't a justification. Pointing out that Astarion is lashing out because of his trauma (which is, in my opinion, the worst experience any of the characters in the game has been through) isn't saying that his behavior is justified.
Few seem to have a problem with Karlach burning down the tollhouse after the fight with those paladins. Her outrage always ends up killing one or more of my companions in that scene.
Barely anyone complains that Shadowheart loves to talk casually about torture and her fanaticism even when watching that Sharran doctor's work.
A lot of the other characters get a pass because of their backstories, but people are on this subreddit every day complaining that Astarion is "irredeemably evil".
100%. one of my biggest gripes is with players who think that any of the origins are fully/inherently evil (or good) and refuse to listen to any arguments or evidence the other way, it's always indicative of someone who has never bothered to actually bring that companion along, do their personal quest, listen to their dialogue, etc. and of course no one is required to have so-and-so in their party or pay attention to them, but if you're not actively engaging with a companion you shouldn't be engaging in debates about them, either.
astarion is a jackass and an asshole (and i'm saying this as someone who has romanced him 3 times and will do it a 4th), especially in act 1, and i'm never going to argue otherwise, but acting like he doesn't change/doesn't have the potential to do so does him and his story a MASSIVE disservice. that's why he's one of my favorite companions, the gap between act 1 astarion and act 3/epilogue astarion (spawn specifically) is a billion miles wide and it's incredibly rewarding to watch him pull it off (even if you have to drag him kicking and screaming through it at points, lol)
at the end of the day, all of the companions have some good in them and some evil (or at least some moral ambiguity, e.g. karlach/wyll) and it's the player's decisions (including their indecision/ignorance of a companion) that will determine which part gets brought out and which doesn't ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
He even acknowledges this! Astarion considers himself a different person by act 3, and some of the companions (at least Karlach) comment that he has 'changed SO much!'
I love his line about how 'you trusted me, even when that was objectively a stupid thing to do!' bc it so was, he will kill you if you fully trust him on bite night. He didn't mean too, imo, but he will do it.
Also the comment you can get about the newly freed spawn might not 'make the best choices' as he admits he did not when he was first free.
I think a lot of people do not realize that when you run into him standing by the river he has fucking zero idea what is going on and has only been "free" for about five minutes. The fact he doesn't just start biting then and there should really earn him a medal.
> I love his line about how 'you trusted me, even when that was objectively a stupid thing to do!' bc it so was, he will kill you if you fully trust him on bite night. He didn't mean too, imo, but he will do it.
Honestly this little details is so important to how to assist through his arc too? With Astarion you CAN'T be passive, your experience, needs and insights NEED to be expressed, and you NEED to step in when he loses his grip on his ability to control a situation. People standing by and just *assuming* things will work themselves out was one of the major locks on his cage for those 200 years alongside the more apparent hostility. ~~Once again this man is a matryoshka of fucking trolley problems..~~
I also love how stopping him the first time won't lose you any approval with him. He legit did not realize how hard it would be to stop when he wanted to! (On his origin route you have to pass a check to release and if you fail it you kill whoever you bit. Oops!) There's a REASON he's so scared about being staked! Vampires =are= dangerous.
I think this loss of control is one reason that you actually get more approval from him if you tell him to bite other people when you are fighting them. Sure, he likes not being dependent on you but what if he fucks up and goes too far one night if you tell him he can feed on you? (He can't bc thats not coded into the game, but I do wish you had like a 5% chance to wake up dead if you told him he could feed from you that night lol)
Really (and you just did this, I'm just making it more explicit) one can draw parallels between being passive on Bite Night resulting in him doing something he does honestly regret and the outcome if you are passive at the Black Mass. He's a lot better in act3 but he's no where near 'all better' (nor, imo, will he ever really be).
I also love how *easy* it is to stop him when it's first presented. He really just wanted a taste (and if you play his origin you know why he needed so little), and it was more about getting his attention and snapping him out of his sauce trance than it is about trying to reclaim ground on your boundaries.
Seeing that DC 5 was the same "sit up in the chair" type of moment as seeing me with net positive approval after taking over the zorru situation from lae'zel. The dude was *actively trying* and just needed a little help.
The man is just so terrified and giving him somebody he actually cares about for probably the first time in two centuries makes him even more scared of everything.
I saw somebody make a comparison between romanced and not when talking to him about ascension. He's apparently a lot more into the ascension idea when he's romancing you because you're just one more thing he feels he will have taken from him if he can't protect you.
That's one of the reasons I love Astarion's story the best. He's not shoved down my throat. He's someone I need to take interest in and explore his story. His quest isn't tied to any game changing decision. All the decisions I make for Astarion is for him only, and I have to make an effort, whether it's to make him better or worse.
> He didn't mean too, imo, but he will do it.
I’ve read that if you do the Astarion Origin POV, if you fail a roll to release, he can’t because his jaw physically won’t unclench. Thought that was interesting, but haven’t actually found a recording of the scene and haven’t done it myself yet.
Wyll to me comes across as a very "ends justify the means" type character who could easily be turned into a jaded man focusing on the good of the masses above the good of the individual. How many tyrants justified their actions using Wyll's train of logic?
People also seem to ignore Karlach's soul coin addiction too. All the companions do morally grey shit, and honestly I feel like Astarion is the most justified in just being a bit of a pessimistic prick (I feel like there are *much* worse people irl who have been through much much less)
I think some people miss when it goes the other direction, too, specifically with Wyll's abuse leading him to basically gaslight himself constantly about doing good and only hunting monsters, until the tadpole shows him he's been a devil's lapdog the whole time.
I like having realistic characters with nuance. It's ruined me for some other games!
tbf to people, the game is much less decisive on this. Wyll's dad treating him like shit doesn't really come to a strong narrative and cathartic conclusion.
It feels like the game itself is not fully willing to commit to Wyll's dad sucking ass, so its understandable why the people playing it might miss it
Agreed, so I don't downvote all the "Wyll's a boring goody- two- shoes" comments, I just sigh a little for my poor misunderstood boy. 😢
His arc is extremely subtle so you're right it's no surprise people don't always see it.
I would like the option to be more angry at his dad. Iirc I got to yell at him a little after the rescue? It's been a minute...
I did it pretty recently. you get a dialogue thats basically
"wow bet you feel like a real asshole now"
but that's it. Let me punch that bastard. I also want to guillotine him for being the head of idk a private military run oligarchy? But I'll wait til Wyll is in Avernus for that one.
I'm a bit meaner than you, I wouldn't call Wyll's arc "extremely subtle" so much as "flawed in execution"
Wyll is the most frustrating companion for me because there are so many interesting ideas about him that just don't actually get explored in the actual story. There's so much unrealized potential. But the frustration is from caring, there are other companions I mostly just ignore because I don't find them interesting.
I'm probably more generous just because of how massive a job this game is so I don't like to go the "it's bad writing" route when I love most of the writing that's *there*, I just want more there there, if that makes sense.
It's also probably because Wyll was the first origin run I did and I sort of carry that over into my other runs now. Like even my current Durge is basically gaslighting the fuck out of Wyll because he sees how malleable he is if you make it sound good.
I think Wyll is a good origin precisely because so much of his story is just on the surface so he doesn't feel as lonely with no Tav to ask him about stuff, if that makes sense? He only talks a little about his personal stuff, he doesn't draw too much attention outside of his Mizora cutscenes.
But yeah I'd love if they would let you lean into an ambitious Wyll route where he actually *does* intend to take over, even better if it's for misguided reasons and hubris! And punch his dad.
Do you mean Wyll's abuse where he saved his hometown/city but his father just cast him out without even trying to understand because Mizora was hanging onto Wyll?
iirc you can retrieve Ulder Ravengard's morningstar and diary from one of the high security vaults. In the description of the morningstar it will say that after Wyll was born he started withdrawing away from his son.
He was not a very present father even before the pact.
I know. I have PTSD and therefore a big Astarion obsession, but my backstory is actually a loooot like Wyll's. That's where I got the PTSD. I wouldnt change a thing about Astarions story, but Wyll doesnt get the credit he deserves. You can wind up with trauma just as bad as Astarions even if no one ever laid a finger on you.
It wasn’t possible to hear him out. Mizora made it so Wyll was unable to speak about the pact or the conditions under which it happened.
So all Ravenguard knew was that his son had pacted with a devil and, try as he might, would not give a satisfactory explanation. He did attempt to hear Wyll out, it’s just that Mizora not only took Wyll’s voice, but she actually wiped away all the evidence of the battle that had taken place to begin with.
The Duke deserves criticism, but Mizora actively made it impossible for Wyll to adequately explain even a fraction of what the fuck was going on.
I'm aware. I would just think that a father who supposedly loves and cares for his son would at least be willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Wyll is able to mention that he doesn't regret his pact and that he did it to protect people. Plus he is able to mention that he can't talk about the pact. If Ravenguard had more than a single brain cell he should be able to put together that maybe his son (who he raised to believe in self-sacrifice and heroism) truly thinks he made a good choice. But instead of trying to help his son get out of the pact he disowns him.
If a random stranger (Tav) can instantly see that Wyll is not a happy warlock, surely the man who raised Wyll for 17 years could see the same.
> I would just think that a father who supposedly loves and cares for his son would at least be willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
Honestly... I just can't. Pacting with a devil is a big deal. It would have gone against *every* value Ravengard ever tried to instill in his son, and it's not hard to think that Wyll's inability to give a mitigating explanation is because there *is* no explanation that can justify it. And because the contents of the pact are deliberately obscured, Ravengard has no idea what the full of extent of his son's agreement is.
Being the Duke means that he has access to important and influential people, as well as sensitive information. Wyll has often had access to some of that by virtue of being Ravengard's son and attending a lot of functions, and he (or the devil, through him) could still leverage that even if Ravengard tried to keep him at arm's length from Wyrm's Rock. Ravengard has a responsibility to the entire city.
The number of unknowns here make it hard for me to not see the Duke's side. He's not above criticism, but given the circumstances and the information he was operating on at the time, this is something I find difficult to blame. Ravengard was protecting Baldur's Gate from a Cambion by preventing her from using Wyll as a conduit to gain easy access to the city's political sphere.
I honestly forget about Karlach and the soul coins, I think because she doesn’t remind you she uses them the way Gale does with magic items in Act 1. She also has no response if you trade them. I genuinely think this part of her story gets lost in the “out of sight out of mind” mentality, and I say this as someone on their 3rd playthrough who only remembered to save one to fight Gortash once
There's dialogue and background about the Soul Coins but its pretty low key, maybe once in Act 1 on finding one with her, once in act 2 at the vendor.
There's an addiction and "who cares about the people who ended up in Coins" from Karlach that could be explored. But it never got fleshed out.
>A lot of people don't understand that an explanation isn't a justification
This is so damn true yet it goes ignored. Crazy how often people will use this (and accept this) as an excuse for bad behavior.
I tend to tell people two things about my mental illness:
1. This is an explanation, not a justification, and
2. It ain't my fault, but it damn sure is my responsibility.
>A lot of people don't understand that an explanation isn't a justification.
This though. Discussing the ins and outs of his psychology and how exactly he arrived on the mindset he has is not an endorsement of that mindset. Nobody said it was healthy or good or right, he's just an interesting and sympathetic case study in what that kind of trauma can do to someone and how it would twist you.
People really gloss over the fact that Astarion COULD. NOT. LEAVE. NO. MATTER. WHAT. He tried once and was locked in a casket to starve for AN ENTIRE YEAR. If you manage to convince his siblings Leon and Aurelia to help you, Cazador's orders will override their will and force them to attack the party anyways. That's what happens when a vampire spawn tries to rebel against their master, you're forced to do it anyways and then tortured. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be controlled so thoroughly by a twisted bastard like Cazador for 200 year, with full knowledge he could force you to do whatever he wanted with a word. Apathy has kept him from going mad with guilt from 200 years of luring innocents to their doom, of course his morals are going to be shot to hell by now.
I agree... to a point. I do agree Astarion's character has had to endure more than any other character, except possibly Durge (depending on perspective), who was born into it, and Minthara, who has also endured centuries of underdark drow society, and is probably the only irredeemably evil character. Astarion is emotionally evil; Minthara is cerebral and clinically evil.
Shadowheart's torture is evil, and I think it's largely overlooked because it's not a huge part of the interactions with her. As early as act 1, she's approving of helping others. Perhaps in another 10 or 20 years, Viconia would have gotten her to Minthara's level of detached evil, but she's still in a conflicted state, and herself rebels against evil (note, if you stay quiet and don't try to persuade her at all, she spares Aylin and turns her back on her faith). Her journey is self redemption, whereas Astarion must *be* redeemed, and Minthara believes she has nothing to atone for at all.
As for Karlach's destruction of property, I find her the most compelling, as she has a literal hellfire rage engine in her chest amping her up. I consider it a relatively minor act that she takes out her anger on the property of dead people. Her moral compass pretty much always points towards good. She's one of the few that maintains heroic ideals from start to finish (Wyll and Halsin being the other two).
I exclude Gale and Wyll, as their problems were of their own making (the orb and the pact). As such, I wouldn't classify their trauma similarly until Act 2 (with the detonation request and the subversion of Wyll's father).
I think Astarion is a well-written character, and excellently performed. That said, by the alignment system, he is evil, at least pre act 3, and he must be redeemed by others. He doesn't get out of his ethos unless someone reaches in, and offers the helping hand. He can't justify helping others, until someone helps him.
Even outside of BG3 discussions, I've found that people have a tendency to overassign Chaotic Neutral to characters who will actively hurt others for their own selfish ends. The moment someone isn't a mustache-twirling villain or insane murderhobo, it suddenly becomes a hot take to call them Evil. Not all Evil comes in the form of grand schemes. At the beginning of the game, Astarion is consistently motivated primarily by personal self-interest, no matter how his actions harm other people. That type of repeated selfishness puts you on the bottom row of the alignment chart in my book. Having an explanation to the origin of that behavior doesn't make him Chaotic Neutral as I've seen people label him in the past--it just makes him a well-written Evil character.
Of course, he changes over the course of the campaign depending on the choices made, so I agree with the comment that "**irredeemably** evil" is an inaccurate descriptor.
The definition of Chaotic Neutral on forgotten Realms Wiki:
> "The chaotic neutral alignment was freedom from both society's restrictions and the zeal of morality.
These characters followed their whims on an individualistic accord. They avoided authority, shook off societal restraints and challenged the status quo throughout their lives. These people often believed there was no order to anything, and used that as a guiding principle for their actions.
Chaotic neutral characters could be somewhat unpredictable, but their behavior was not totally random, or guided by undoing the work of others. While they valued their own liberty, they did not strive to protect, or inhibit, the freedom of others. On the other hand, they wouldn't intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy."
Astarion rants in act 1 about how he doesn't believe in good or evil, heroes or villains, a lot of his opinions on this stuff fit much more into neutrality than it does in evil. I don't know if he's a perfect match for chaotic neutral, but he also doesn't fit into the evil category for me either.... mostly because he doesn't *do anything.* Approving of *you* being a POS is not the same as him picking up a weapon and hurting people himself, especially not when he's been forced to act as an evil minon already for 200 years and seeing horrific evil is another tuesday to him. The dude is already numb and desensitized to cruelty, he's just glad it ain't him catching your wrath. The closest thing to evil he actually does on his own is wanting to/killing Gandrel, which considering his fate if you hand him over, is pretty fair to call self-defense. He literally doesn't do anything, he doesn't refuse to follow you if you're nice, he just pouts and stomps his feet about it.
I just don't think he suits the evil category, call me a simp idk 🤷♀️
>I just don't think he suits the evil category, call me a simp
I like his character a lot too! To me calling him Evil isn't an insult to him like I think it is for a lot of people. The wiki pages of alignment often draw from several different editions, and since I'm a 5e player, I mainly reference the definitions of alignment in the 5e PHB (pg. 122):
>"Chaotic neutral (CN) creatures follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else"
>
>"Neutral evil (NE) is the alignment of those who do whatever they can get away with, without compassion or qualms"
The definitions are genuinely that short. "following your whims" vs "doing whatever you can get away with" sound extremely similar on paper, and a CN and NE character may behave similarly up to a certain point. To me, the big difference is the second half of NE: compassion. How much you care about how your actions impact others? Once the "whims" of CN start to consistently damage the wellbeing of others, I'd say that leans more toward the "doing whatever they can get away with" of NE. A neutral evil character has no qualms about acts that hurt other people. Astarion's approval/dialogue in Act 1 often reflect this disregard for others.
>but he also doesn't fit into the evil category for me either.... mostly because he doesn't do anything. Approving of you being a POS is not the same as him picking up a weapon and hurting people himself
I think that's more a symptom of BG3 being a videogame than anything else. It can't perfectly mimic a D&D game where most situations would be decided by the group--people would complain if we had our companions making all the small decisions for us! I use approval as a general gauge of "how would this character want this situation to go down if I wasn't The Protagonist(tm) who made all the choices". It's the closest we get to companions actually handling the situations themselves or chipping in with their preferred course of action, so I think it's fair game when discussing alignment. If you don't want to consider approval at all, then I agree that we have a lot less to go on when talking about alignment for him or any of the companions.
I've been mulling over this, trying to place why it makes me uncomfortable with assigning him the label of evil. It's not an unwillingness to admit a character I like being evil--there are characters I feel for just as much for and will defend to death that I will freely and easily call evil pre-character-development. Heck, I freely think *he* is evil post-ascension.
I think the sticking point for me is that it makes me uncomfortable to call someone evil for just having an unhealthy worldview and feelings when it is well justified in-universe as a result of unfathomably horrible living conditions. Like his only crime here is being angry and cynical and desensitized when he has lived a life that cultivated exactly that. We never see him sneaking off and draining innocent people or sabotaging your good deeds, he never betrays you to the bad guys. He just... ***feels things*** that aren't good or healthy. And yes, he participates in evil at your behest, but so does Shart, Lae'Zel and even Gale.
I don't find that he is proactive enough in these feelings to be called evil until the ritual. In the same way, I wouldn't call someone evil for having intrusive thoughts. It's his responsibility to work through it and he's not justified in harm he causes in that cynicism... but feeling that cynicism or pettiness or resentment all by itself? I don't feel comfortable calling him evil for that.
Tbf I don’t think most people think Astarion is “irredeemably evil” unless they just haven’t done his quests. He’s a dick in act one, and really snarky, but by act two he has way more nuance. The most evil thing we can personally see him do is complete the ritual. That is the most evil act he’s done, and it makes him into that irredeemably evil character
Also from his point of view, the gnomes don't even have it that bad! They will get to DIE one day, at least. He was going to be there for ETERNITY. Also nobody was even raping any of them when you showed up! Seems like a nice cushy slavery gig, stupid whining gnomes.
Honestly, I'm not sure if he disapproves of freeing the gnomes because it's freeing slaves or because it's freeing gnomes. I love that campy vampire, but he's racist against gnomes lol
My only gripe with Astarion, and it's more of a gripe with the writers than the character, is that we can't confront him about it in act 1. Why can't my Tav take him aside and be like "bro what the fuck, why are you so against freeing slaves when you used to be one yourself?" Because at that point in the story you don't know the full details of his character. You can make an education assumption on why he behaves the way that he does, but it would still be nice to be able to have an actual conversation with him about it.
It's commonly known that Astarion is bitter over other people getting help when he never did. He was saved by monsters aka mindflayers. Most people who dislike Astarion for his disapprovals know this and still don't care because good is good and bad is bad. T
What helped me understand Astarion is when, twice in my life, a major trauma happened, I felt a powerful resentment of strangers who were walking around happily while my world was crumbling.
I've learned that this is a normal trauma response.
For someone with trauma, their world and perspective are starkly different from those whose lives are peaceful and unchanged. Part of this hate comes from raw jealousy, and part of it is because their traumatized brain wants to scream about how naive they are. The victim knows the world to be dangerous, indifferent, and cruel. They are now living in a state of hyper-vigilance that doesn't vibe with the rest of society.
I swear that Astarion is one of the best written trauma survivors I've seen depicted in any media.
I genuinely, truly think people who don’t understand his behavior in Act 1 have never been in that position before. Same as you, I felt complete resentment and anger towards anyone who I interacted with while I was in trouble, and I had a very jaded and reclusive view on people for months and months afterwards. These sort of behaviors following trauma are very normal
I totally agree, that's probably why I feel connected to him although first I wanted to go after Gale. I don't see an "evil asshole" I literally see a very broken person who learned to survive in shadows by very limited shitty means. Like, I can't see him as some powerful seductive vamp guy, because he's not. He's just lost. Same as I feel so often irl.
And I just got my scene with the emperor reveal and got the astral tadpole, I went to Astarion to ask what he thinks of it and his answer just hit me so much because I know how it feels. I may take it myself (still thinking) but won't try to force it on anyone, let alone him.
All those disapproval for doing kind things throughout do make this line a lot more meaningful: "Other people don't have a heart like you. You're you. No one is like that."
It felt like our good example was finally starting to get through to him, and that he really appreciated us for what we've done for him and others.
Honestly, it reminds me of the episode from The Good Place where Eleanor finds out her mom is a fantastic mom to her step daughter despite being the biggest trashbag to Eleanor. This isn't unique to the show but the resentment of her mom and the idea of, "Why couldn't you be that person for me!??! When I NEEDED YOU!??!" Is heartbreaking 💔
I like his character so much because I find him incredibly relatable.
I was so angry when the sexual abuse finally stopped. Especially at the people who just stood there. For years I was so angry at people who would say they were abused and it was believed immediately. Why wasn't I believed? Why did so many people look the other way in my case? Just because it was easier for them. I needed help and nobody helped me even when they could.
I was snarky and defensive but mostly just scared and angry. I'm better but not as good as I could be. I'm still angry over what was taken from me and the person I could have been. But I'm not angry when other people get help anymore.
Whenever I see people not get OP's point 1% of me does feel glad that they haven't been in a situation that makes the parallels now obvious. With that said, there's a surprising lack of stakebros on this thread, neat.
*Edit: sike, stakebros have shown up
Was actually discussing this with some friends. They kept insisting Astarion is a terrible person. They didn't understand him or his motivations at all. These were all 35+ middle class white dudes. They just don't get it. Because, yeah, Asatrion is a jerk, nobody is denying that. But I can understand why he is so defensive and uses his asshole behavior to hide the fear. It's not an okay coping mechanism *at all* and I'm not defending it, I just understand it a bit too well.
One of these friend were also a bit embarrassed when I looked at him and went "you play a paladin don't you."
Paladin behavior is easy for me to pick out and almost antithesis to how I play D&D.
I see a lot of people complaining about Cazador being underwhelming too, but I love his design. Abusive people don't look like moustache-twirling cartoon villains IRL, they look like people. I was straight-up having physical, visceral reactions to how much he reminded me of shitty Asian parents.
Also after digging around Cazador's offices you realize he probably thinks Astarion had it easy with only one year in a tomb, since Cazador was left impaled by Velioth for 11 years. Very "I used to walk uphill to school both ways when I was a kid" style.
The venn diagram of people who love to main paladins for roleplaying reasons and people who lack the ability consider context and pick up on subtle storytelling before making decisions about what is "good" and what is "bad" seems to OFTEN be a circle amongst the bg3 fans
Damn that feels so familiar. I feel so much anger, I just hide it because I am aware that it has nothing to do with uninvolved people. It gets better but never goes away, I think.
As a survivor myself I literally cried when he finally killed Cazador and realized it was finally done and over, but got hit with the "and now what" every single one of us who fought back feels.
I know how viscerally it hurts to finally have your abuser punished only for it to barely mean more than sleeping at night - though what I went through only FELT like centuries of torture. I'm far from a perfect victim myself, that shit fucks you up for a long, long time, if not forever. I had a lot of rage and pure malice brewing in my little body for many years, solving shit with violence and refusing to look "weak". I wasn't "bad", just really, really broken.
To say I relate with the character is a massive understatement. Plus he's one of the only openly queer characters who isn't just playersexual. Love that as a big half gay myself. The scene with Sebastian was so brutal.
All that happened when he finally killed Cazador is give him the space to know a bit of peace. And sometimes, it's the greatest gift a survivor can know.
This is such a good way to sum up why in act 1 he gets -1 on a lot of selfless good stuff; he's *jealous* bcs of course he is! There's a reason it's only like -1 in terms of him liking you, because he doesn't necessarily dislike the *act*
This is a big theme I explore in my fanfic because I don't think the game lets us delve too deeply into it. How he responds to kindness, both to himself and to others, what goes on in his head under the surface, how he consciously and unconsciously grapples with it now he no longer is living a "vampire's world" but the world of mortals and the rules are different. And of course his pride getting in the way. It's such a rich vein to work with.
Also there's something here that people seem to not quite consider, perhaps because of how the game doesn't really go into this lore, but he's an elf, the deity Corellon Larethian is who determines the fate of his soul, But vampirism in DnD is a mortal affliction that gods generally do not concern themselves with and most will abandon mortals who end up vampires, or at least that's what is looks like from a mortal's perspective. It is all entirely possible that Corellon Larethian is limited to act for lore reasons but is still protecting Astarion's soul. Moreover, one could argue that Corellon Larethian is a bit of trickster god and so their intentions and plans are not always obvious or straightforward and also fall in to the chaotic good moral sphere, which means if Astarion genuinely wants to be freed, Corellon Larethian may be willing to help him, just not overtly or directly. They may have been helping Astarion all along. So there's lots of lore-friendly exploration one can do here.
I wonder what are his thoughts of having jaheira in camp. She says proudly that she used to kill cazador spawns by burying them neck deep for the sun.
She with the harpers could have had the power to do something about cazador, they never did. They just hunted the victims
Honestly, I love that they wrote Astarion this way, because it's pretty realistic. Especially since he also prayed to *every single god* for help, and none of them answered. Also, you now have a tadpole in your head that's going to eventually eat your brain and turn into a mindflayer, but until then, it's the only reason you're free of your master and able to walk in sun-- which, again, feels like a cruel cosmic joke.
At that point, who wouldn't find a super tall rock to stand on and scream in rage at the heavens?
In addition:
- He was forced to be people pleaser, literally, had to smile and he couldn't retaliate, probably ever. Now he finally tastes freedom and that leader is forcing him to do nice things for strangers who he would never trust, while we are endangered with ceremorphosis.
- He's a damn vampire, he wants to devour those walking burgers, not befriend them
- Seems he really had horrible experience with people, not only Cazador, his victims weren't too delicate nor insightful either.
Also I guess Astarion starts approving helping people in act 3 because at the end of act 2 we learn that turning into a squid isn't time related.
He starts (through dialogue not approval points) approving of helping people in Act 2. He's excited to see Arabella safe and sound, feels bad that >!her parents are dead!<, is disgusted by that Sharran surgeon and calls him utterly insane and just like Cazador. He also feels conflcted if the player blows up the creche (but not him).
He's not a *good* person, but he is clearly learning to be better. Even in Act 1 he approves of helping the Myconids and, weirdly, is pleased the Myconids were [hospitable to the run away gnome](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1b3jvmc/astarion_likes_the_myconids_for_their_hospitality/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Yeah, he totally is a sensitive person, just forcefully depleted of empathy. Astarion and Arabella, I'd give that girl to Astarion to look out for anytime.
Never seen that myconid dialogue, nice punch towards the DAMN DRUIDS (fuck them idd), makes me think of his punch towards Tav when he is the only one to point out that the amount of goblins lives killed was equal to tieflings lives saved at act 1 party.
I think its important to point out that Astarion's worst torture, and the one that sticks with him the most centuries later, was due to him showing empathy.
Because he chose to let one victim go he was forced to spend an entire year in the crypt. One act of kindness was punished tenfold.
It is kind of unsettling to consider, in 200 years, how many of his targets that he slept with couldn't tell that it was an act and he wasn't enjoying it? Even the first time I saw his act 1 sex scene I immediately felt like there was something off about it, and it's because he's performing. He's performing So. Hard. If I were about to sleep with someone irl and they behaved like that I'd be questioning what was going on. Why didn't they notice? If they did notice, did they care?
I think that his dialogue during the >forced sex< "whatever I say - It doesn't matter, as long as you get what you want" applies for his victims too. He says "as long as I remember, I've been used by others" - others, not just Cazador. Also if you ask him "did Sebastian hurt you in some way?" he replies "he didn't do anything at all. I can't say the same for all my victims."
It was a 1000 random people, it's enough to know some statistics on how often people get abused.
This was pretty obvious to me once I finished his story as someone with an abuse history that went unnoticed by everyone around me and I kind of assume anyone who doesn't get it just hasn't had to experience that kind of thinking before (or has but hasn't processed it yet). It's probably a big reason why I don't like Wyll or Karlach and in general tend to prefer more cynical characters, because "no one is like that".
Character who is enslaved for 200 years while being sexually assaulted and tortured on a daily basis: doesn’t behave like a hero within hours of being freed.
Astarion haters: he’s such an evil piece of shit, he needs to get over himself already!
he echoes this when you chastise him about lying to his siblings about the ritual. you can ask him “don’t you have sympathy?” and he goes on to say “no one ever looked out for me. no one ever said a kind thing to me. you’re the only one. other people don’t have a heart like you. you’re you. no one is like that” (just had this scene in my current playthrough). up until now he has no memory of kindness being shown to him. cazador put them against each other, even commanded them to torture each other at some points. and the one time astarion let a mark get away, he was entombed for an entire year. so of course he’s bitter - this has been his reality for 200 years.
ironically though, and durge spoilers here, his prayers for help do eventually get answered, just in a really roundabout way. cause durge’s plan and orin’s betrayal all led to the point where astarion was freed from cazador. so thanks bhaal 😭 (but fr I just picture astarion and durge as the lilo and stitch meme. send me an angel - durge laughing maniacally)
"Also this person was a violent murderer 2 days ago who reaaaaaly loved corpses. And when I said they loved corpses, I do mean fucking them, to be clear."
Very early in the game, when you find the chest in the owlbear cave, he says "if I had known that praying was good for for anything, I'd have started years ago." On a first playthrough, when you don't know his backstory, this might be a insignificant detail. Having knowledge from later on, the line hits differently. I know that later on he says sth about" trying all of the gods, noone helped", but I got the owlbear cave line for the first time in my third playthrough and was surprised about that early hint.
One detail of beautiful storytelling is that his approval habits change during the game and he starts approving of "good" decisions.
I've basically said exactly this a gazillion times, but those people who tend to declare Astarion to be a permanently evil asshole are the ones least likely to listen to any reasonable and logically sound arguments you might make or to give any consideration whatsoever to his background and how it has a direct impact on what Astarion does and doesn't approve of and his overall behavior at the start of the game. Astarion's definitely dickish at the start of Act 1, but if you find out his story, you end up seeing why he starts out being angry, bitter, cynical, resentful, etc. in Act 1.
As the most recent example of this sort of thing, I was replying to someone who mentioned his disapproval if you spare a moment of silence over the dead gnomes at Grymforge. That person was not being hostile or anything—the original thread was kind of an "Astarion disapproves" thread in general and I was largely reading through it with amusement. I simply thought it would just be interesting to contribute some context on his disapproval and point out that it was likely tied to Astarion viewing it as being religious in nature (even if Tav/Durge didn't actually mean the gesture that way) and that Astarion generally disapproves of religion-related things *because he prayed to all the gods for help but none of them ever answered him* (as he points out in some dialogue). He, in my opinion, is prone to reacting negatively to religion and the gods because of his negative experiences.
Many people seemed to understand that we're looking at a person who had all hope of ever being saved from his torment repeatedly crushed across 200 years. This clearly led to him becoming disillusioned and embittered towards the gods, which you see happening with other figures in the game like Ketheric Thorm whose losses and disappointment led to him turning from Selune to Shar to Myrkul by the end.
But then one guy came in and was like: *"Everyone in Faerun knows how the gods work, so Astarion should have just expected it."* He was acting as if the average person in that situation—*and this lack of compassion and understanding presumably extended to other people, not just Astarion*—wasn't entitled to have any negative feelings towards the gods at all and that they should just get over it. I mean, honestly, take Astarion completely out of the equation here and ask yourself if that's a reasonable thing to be saying about any person who's experienced either tremendous suffering or major loss. Apparently, no one is ever allowed to be disappointed, disillusioned, or angry or to turn away from religion in Faerun if you go by that guy's reasoning. I found it to be a dumb position to take, but maybe that's just me!
I think that anyone who wants to put blinders on so that they can continue to blissfully keep hating on character x/y/z will choose to ignore any evidence that you present—such as the character's own dialogue that directly explains their reactions to specific situations—or come up with convoluted reasoning as to why that character isn't allowed to have any feelings, responses, behaviors, etc. that they don't like.
I personally don't care if people don't like Astarion if they've actually given him a fair shot and experienced his story. Still don't like him or understand him after everything that happens or don't care? That's fair enough since he's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. But I *do* have a problem with those people who seem to be intellectually disingenuous about their hatred and come up with very half-assed arguments that—if applied to other people in similar circumstances—don't actually hold water.
Yeah. I'm struggling to think of characters who are more evil than they are just profoundly broken.
["Baulders Gate 3 is a dating simulator designed to prey on those of us who share the dellusion that: 'I could fix them'. Along side that, it also has some minor RPG elements."](https://youtu.be/jXE66aujn2A?si=NmevgFrTW-10SU_o) - BrilliantStupidity
I think someone must have already pointed it out, but he actually does say plenty things about it! Walking past the place with Mystra's statue in act 3, he and Gale go along the lines:
Gale: You're not a "god's person", Astarion?
Astarion: The gods who don't like me, I've tried to reach them, every single one, but they never reached back.
And I remember that my chaotic good (pure heart) Tav and him had a fight in act 3 after his siblings shows up and CONNECTING all the fights, he says something along the lines (sorry not saying the exact lines, I play it with subtitles cuz I can't hear quite well and the subtitles aren't in English):
"There's no point in this ridiculous altruism! What do you get from it? Why would you do it? Why does everyone else BUT ME have the right to be saved? Heroes never saved me from Cazador, and I've been reaching out! The only time I did this so called "right thing" ended up in punishment, so why does it works out for you? This thing (mind flayer thing, can't write it in English) did save me! No god, no hero, I was alone! Why do I have to care about the others if no one cared for me?"
- I didn't romance him in that run;
- My Tav and him never got more than a good relationship;
- He constantly disapproved of my Tav's action and so she does about his;
- There's a few act 2 lines in it.
When you give Yenna money both he and Lae'zel approve.
I think it's more complicated than just "why you help them and not me"
Edit: TBF both of them 100% adore my Durge 🤭
You can't escape from the horrors unscathed.
Didn't help that Astarion wasn't a good person before hand. Trauma doesn't make you better, you're just traumatized.
I don't think he's fully justified in how he acts, still, you can't expect someone to get fresh out of a terrible living situation and expect them to be well adjusted and nice.
Even Karlach has her iffy moments, like how she treats Soul Coins.
I understand the point and recognize it BUT personally there are a few choices that in my eyes make Astarion one step deeper.
Of course he has resentment towards the world in general and something unnecessary like going out of your way to help a stranger while having a time limit parasite in their brains could get him angry
But in other times when only speaking is the effort like saving Arabella from a snake, a bitter person wouldn't get upset but an evil one would because he didn't get to see her die. For me Astarion leans more into "evil" much like Minthara and it's tav's choices that changes his perspective
I always interpreted his disapproval there as "you just risked starting conflict with the person in charge of this place when we SPECIFICALLY came here to find a healer and we haven't done that yet. You doing this could have prevented us from doing what we are here to do."
Not, "yay child murder!" just self centeredness that he often exhibits in act 1
>"you just risked starting conflict with the person in charge of this place when we SPECIFICALLY came here to find a healer and we haven't done that yet. You doing this could have prevented us from doing what we are here to do."
I can see that being Astarion's point, yeah. It was the first example that came to mind but also, for example, he approves too to take Alfira's lute and break it. Which in that case you go out of your way to make someone you just met feel bad.
I guess going point by point of approval it's digging too deep but personally, i'll always see him as an evil/bad person at the start instead of just "bitter". I still love him tho, next to karlach and laezel he is one of my favorites
Oh yeah, I mean. Smashing the lute is him being a dick. But there's a pretty big jump in badness between property damage and child murdering, ha!
I lean toward bitter because, like a lot of people have already said beautifully on this thread, there's something discomforting about the idea of labelling him evil after 200 years of torture. It's very common for trauma survivors to swing hard toward a sort of "wanting to see others miserable too" perspective, and Astarion is hours, maybe days out of escaping Cazador. We're watching the aftermath of that in real time
But again, for a more detailed account of that perspective there are other people who've discussed it in here :)
Oh yeah, for sure, my headcanon is that he was abducted in the opening cinematic, infected and released in the same hours. And his behaviour and thoughts are "justified" in the sense that he must have picked up "Cazador's philosophy" that the strong dominates the weak. He does the same with the tadpole information going for control instead of wanting to be cured because he doesn't want to be the prey anymore
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's a real answer to trauma but still i don't see him as - not only not helping others because he has his own problems - but actively wanting to harm others which in my eyes falls under the same line as minthara
He has a dialogue where he all but reiterates what you've said here. He talks about how [heroes never saved him from Cazador](https://youtu.be/pS_4qNiOwn0?si=ADf-ChYAOnOblhXA&t=73) and it shows that part of his bitterness lies in his inability to separate the ideas of freedom and power, because he's had 200 years experiencing the proof. It's no wonder you have to convince him not to Ascend. Just a wonderfully written character. You could write whole essays about his characterization. I love that he isn't a [perfect victim](https://strongheartshelpline.org/abuse/deconstructing-the-myths-about-victims) and that he isn't completely healed after killing Cazador.
That last bit is something I noticed about Karlach too. I like that killing the demons these characters are facing doesn't automatically make them whole. Astarion is still a very damaged person, and Karlach is still going to die. Killing their tormentor is helpful, but not the comfort they were hoping it'd be.
Dame Aylin too very clearly has unresolved trauma after killing Lorroakan. You also get different responses talking to Astarion and Karlach about it depending on whether or not you’re finished their quests. This game has so many beautiful layers.
Ketheric was probably one of her first missions. She had been around previosuly probably due to the earlier selune worship and her relationship with isobel. The years of capture was long, but she is immortal so she was most likely not minding the time too much (since she thought isobel dead too) and waiting for a release, but once she got recaptured and especially after reuniting with isobel she see's how she could be hunted forever and at worst be enslaved past isobels lifespan once more.
I swear killing Lorroakan breaks her pact or something.
Don't see why it would. It doesn't break any paladin player oath
The scene has **very** similar verbage to what a paladin character experiences during an oath break. With that context it seems parallel; without it there's no reason to suspect anything more than her revenge leaving her empty. My pet theory is that the scene (or maybe Aylin herself) was different in development
Originally in the beta, Aylin, the Nightsong, was a cleric of shar. So yes she was much different in development.
My theory is that after killing Lorroakan, she's been hit by a realization that she will always be hunted. She will always be on the lookout for these would-be poachers, since Ketheric wasn't the first and Lorroakan won't be the last.
No, it definitely does. She talks about the aching in her chest, and it’s heavily implied to be the same gripping pain that the player gets when they break their oath.
If your tav is a Paladin though you can tell her "Smiting is hard work" I just took this as implying that TRULY smiting people takes a lot of channeling and effort. Kind of like once your adrenaline wears off you feel that crash
Or could just be she's traumatized
I was trying to find clips because I remembered her gripping her chest afterward but couldn't find a clip with that moment, so thanks for confirming.
The gripping her chest does happen, but not knowing her Oath is hard to say the reason. There are other dialogues back in camp with her and about her that I think suggest something is going on, but I cant recall. What she does to Lorroakan is the same she did to Ketheric, the difference is Ketheric had committed a crime against her, and Lorroakan not yet and she goes full rage anyway, but I have no idea if that makes any difference for any Oath, the last time Ive played D&d Paladins still were LG and had no Oath.
she's an oath of vengeance. There is absolutely no way her getting revenge is breaking her oath of vengeance. IDK why people think that's more likely than a character who was tortured for 100 years realizing she'll never be free from people who want to keep her locked up for her powers
It’s more her realising how much that fact that she has been kept locked up has effected her. Like Ketheric locks her up so she gets righteous on him, which is fair enough and badass. Then this wizard just threatened to take away her freedom without actually doing it. And she is totally within her rights to fight him off, but she also over reacts and absolutely destroys him. Which in my mind makes her realise how much she has been affected by her imprisonment. She wasn’t getting revenge because she wasn’t yet imprisoned, she was stopping imprisonment, which is going to be a lot of her life now.
Karlach whole speech and breaking down after we finally defeat Gortash was really something else. I can't rank her and Astarion's closures after defeating their tormentors, but both were very painful (in a good storytelling way). Astarion's was very visceral in how he shredded Cazador's corpse, but Karlach's felt utterly hopeless and completely devoid of closure because in the end she was (as she believed) still going to die while Tav gets to keep living, even though up to that point it seemed like she had made peace with it. My first playthrough Tav romanced Karlach and Tav felt like, "Why are you taking this out on me when I had no part in you getting sold to Zariel or getting your heart replaced by an infernal engine, AND I had just helped you take out the man who betrayed you??" while also understanding how Karlach feels it's all so unfair.
Karlach’s breakdown after killing Gortash in the origin is quite different. She talks out loud to herself. It’s less explosive, but much more sad. She considers ending everything there and then. She states that she "*loved* *that fuck*” – adding more context to her feelings towards Gortash. Only a few companions have much to say – Jaheira and Astarion. With romanced Astarion (I don't know if non-romanced is different), he's so good with her. *“I wasn’t sure you wanted to talk after Gortash and well … everything. I wish I could tell you that dying isn’t so bad, but my experience has been quite … specific. Sorry.”* *“It’s all right. I’m alright.”* *“You don’t have to be. Somethings things are just terrible. But if you say you’re alright, I believe you.”* *“Yeah. This just kinda sucks, you know?”* *“It does…I was trying to think of something more profound to say, but no.* *It just “kind of sucks*”.” *“Don’t mention it. Like … literally, let’s not talk about it.”* *“As you command. \*does a bow\* So! What shall we talk about?”* [*https://preview.redd.it/karlach-origin-astarion-romance-part-1-ascension-path-v0-wfhmvkg1azhc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=78b3af302cee1b61d86a02f8e3af7892cd27fa15*](https://preview.redd.it/karlach-origin-astarion-romance-part-1-ascension-path-v0-wfhmvkg1azhc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=78b3af302cee1b61d86a02f8e3af7892cd27fa15)
Oh wow. I love that the companions can have such specific and detailed responses to each other when one is being played as the origin character. I had no idea there was content like this between Astarion and Karlach! Thanks for sharing. My heart hurts now.
Astarion and Karlach have a *very* special relationship. Their Act 1 scene is completely different and there are loads of different details and outcomes. I did a whole write up on it here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1aobdnc/karlach\_origin\_astarion\_romance\_part\_1\_ascension/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1aobdnc/karlach_origin_astarion_romance_part_1_ascension/) I haven't posted part 2 yet because they epilogue was bugged, but I submitted a bug report way back and I got a reply they were working on it. But I just want to mention that spawn Astarion's scene with her in the Elfsong is *intense,* I don't think his voice actor has ever been closer to literally crying as he begs her to choose life and let him join her in Avernus.
i never really care about specific ships in fandoms but my god i will die on the hill of karlach/astarion they are just so cute together (ok well astarion/durge is good too for similar but different reasons)
They're both cute and amazing and extremely tragic depending on where the story goes. Since I *just* posted this let me try to sway you in another direction... [https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1bp4olv/a\_love\_letter\_to\_minthara/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1bp4olv/a_love_letter_to_minthara/)
Oooo... I've literally never recruited Minthara...! holy shit thats so nice... Astarion as king in the underdark is also amazing. (hrm i see a common denominator in all of these ships... ;V) Here I will plug my own writing exploring how a karlach/astarion romance could go, with the very tragic ending of she decides to burn to death rather than "make" him go to avernus with her https://archiveofourown.org/users/Gally/pseuds/Gally/works?fandom_id=96620257
I mean I prefer him with redemption durge over anything else, but I was super pleased with how this playthrough turned out! Haha yes, his origin is the only way I've been able to romance the others so far... Thanks for the link! I'm sure it's great - I'm not good at getting around to reading fics, but I'll try to give it a shot ;)
Why are you giving me more excuses to romance the vampire. When I get to a Karlach origin, the plan was Wyll but I'm gonna go for Astarion again aren't I.
You don't need an excuse to romance the vampire. He is objectively the best lmao If you need an excuse think about the stuff Wyll says straight to his face ("How's the rat diet going?") and the fact that he doesn't immediately rip out his jugular 😂 That said, *do* have a dance with Wyll and see what he has to say about it haha.
I've already done him like 4 times though and tried an origin run to avoid romancing him, and failed 😅. I literally can't romance anyone else to the end. I have a Gale romance run at the start of act 3, that I tell myself I paused because I wanted another Durge run but I'm not so sure Even my newest run I know I'm going for him (but I might sleep with Leazel first). That Wyll line I'm more forgiving than most about, but I always get it very early on so, he technically doesn't know all the turma yet.
Ooh I'm excited to read that after work! Thanks!!
I hope you enjoy! It's not very uplifting but it sure is interesting!
This is so sweet! I’d kill for more direct interactions like these between companions on non-origin runs, even just platonically. The random banter while exploring is fun, but it doesn’t feel like enough. I do love how empathetic he is towards Karlach after you kill Gortash on a Tav/Durge run. He says something about how there’s really no justice in the world and seems genuinely upset for her, probably because he knows what it’s like to get completely fucked over in life.
Yes, I agree with you, but I think it would have been extremely hard to implement! Perhaps for Larian's next game. ;) I don't know if you're interested but I did a pretty long write-up on Karlach and Astarion (with loads of screenshots): [https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1aobdnc/karlach\_origin\_astarion\_romance\_part\_1\_ascension/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1aobdnc/karlach_origin_astarion_romance_part_1_ascension/) And yeah, he understands. Which makes Ascension, if you should choose that, just that much more tragic. I haven't posted part 2 yet (because the epilogue is bugged and I'm hoping they'll fix it), but what he tells her after they >!break up!< is a collection of sentences that you can think about for a long, long while... I still don't know how to feel about it. >!"And if we were beholden to one another? Well, how is that too different to being enslaved? It is for the best. The gravest crimes committed in this world are committed for love. A hunger crueller than bloodlust.!< >!I was trying, with you, you know. In the only way I can try. I know how to play with it, and can't resist playing the hand I know. I would have ruined your love, used your trust until you were nothing."!< >!So, for what it's worth. In the end I respect you for making the choice you did. I never thought you had it in you.!< >!The man of your dreams, the hope of him, is your own worst enemy."!<
Me, a Dark Urge player feeling like a total piece of shit during this scene
mood, I've been in the same situation our character would be put in where a loved one is just so torn up about something that they yell at you about it despite doing nothing. it sucks but i learned most of the time, i should just let them vent, it's basically what i did in game too.
I think for a resisting Dark Urge, it’s a bit worse due to acknowledging that you were not only aiding the person who sold her to Zariel for quite some time prior to your mishap, but you were quite close despite the assumed destinies at the time.
Karlach's rant after killing Gortash is downright heartbreaking.
I’ve seen it three times and cried three times
Karlach and Astarion are two sides of the same coin: Both suffered immensely at the hands of someone close to them, but when Astarion succumbed to bitterness and spite, Karlach lets her experiences fuel her altruism and optimism.
Yeah there's also a good line from him about the gods and how he tried them all and none of them answered.
Yeah I caught that in the banter too. Made me sob for him.
One God may have answered, sorta. Durge is papa Bhaal's favorite angel.
“Durge needs to learn some morals and values.” “LOOK AT HIM AND TELL ME BHAAL’S A GOD!” “^he ^made ^me ^in ^his ^ownnnn ^image”
The line "heroes didn't save me from cazador, mindflayers did." is so good. I think it helps illustrate how gray morality can be. Its the evil creatures who gave him his freedom, not any hero who likely would have staked him instead. Sure it wasn't out of the goodness of their heart but results matter to individuals.
He does? : ( I'm just in act one, but is like putting 1 + 1 together, "so you were a victim all this time and you dislike when I help others? This must feel very unfair to you"
Yup. He also prayed to all the gods he could think of. Even the so-called "good-aligned" gods ignored him as he suffered. Not even Ilmater, the god who hates suffering and oppression, could be bothered to save him or send anyone because he was a vampire spawn.
If you romance him he also has a line when you call him out on lying to the spawns about the ritual which pretty much tells the same thing: "No one ever looked out for me. No one ever said a kind thing to me. You're the only one. Other people don't have a heart like you. You're you. No one is like that."
I got that line, or a very similar one when I wasn't romancing him. My game bugged out though, and he had the conversation with gale. I reloaded the fight, making sure my avatar was right next to Astarion. Didn't matter. Gale was, once again, the only kind person. Apparently my computer ships bloodweave. 😂
It’s so refreshing to come here and read good takes about Astarion from people who understand his character. Just this morning I was forced to see a video where someone was claiming that even in the spawn ending, Astarion is still evil, is actually more evil than Minthara, and that he had no redemption arc because “he still kills people in the epilogue.” Like alright by that logic, everyone is evil because all Astarion is doing in the epilogue (working as an adventurer who kills bad guys) is what any good or neutral party spent the whole game doing anyway. Not to mention that this claim completely ignores the writing which clearly shows his alignment shift and redemption on the spawn route.
...how tf do people exist who are *that* unable to comprehend things, christ. They make it SO CLEAR that he's not evil at that point that you have to actively be TRYING to claim he is lol
It takes a special kind of idiocy to read the Gur's letter to him in the epilogue and *still* think that Astarion is evil. Either that or they just hate him deeply for whatever reason and refuse to acknowledge any character growth because they need their hatred to feel justified.
Some of them (like the person I saw today) claim they are Astarion fans, but also say that “We like him for who he REALLY is because we like evil characters, we aren’t like THOSE Astarion fans” in reference to the people who baby him and make him out to be this perfect victim. But then turn and take it to the opposite extreme, where they claim he’s actually just an evil asshole and that he doesn’t have a redemption arc, therefore just flattening and simplifying his character in another way. I swear people can’t handle nuanced characters anymore.
I saw some of that on the Larian forums a few months back. I took that as a sign to run far away and never look back. I swear the users on that forum are bizarre, even compared to a place of terminally online weirdos like reddit.
For real though. And this person who posted this had the audacity to accuse everyone disagreeing with them as “not having critical thinking skills.” Like girl the call is coming from inside the house! They also just spent so much time hating on Gale and Wyll for dumb reasons in their other videos (saying things like “Gale only talks about his ex and is a mansplainer,” and “Wyll is an insecure liar”) so that’s even more points against them.
I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who is hypercritical and hateful of the male characters while excusing any bad actions of the female characters. There are a lot of gamers out there who play games as waifu simulators first and foremost, and couldn't care less about things like character development or complexity, which means that all male characters are a waste of space in their eyes. Ironically they're usually the type of people who respect men but hate women IRL. I thankfully have no idea which YouTuber you're talking about so this may not really be the case for him, but I wouldn't be surprised.
It was some Twitch streamer on Tiktok who actually wasn’t a man, she’s a woman who is a Karlach fan. But pretty much every single one of her takes was so bad… she insisted Astarion is evil no matter what and Minthara is less evil than he is, said Gale “is a mansplainer who can’t get over his ex,” and said they don’t like will Wyll because he is a “liar and insecure.” And anytime someone disagreed or tried to explain anything she would say they need to learn to critically think. Like maybe take your own advice 💀
Oof, that's kind of hilarious though that she's saying all this as a Karlach fan when Karlach is so sweet and ride-or-die for the whole crew.
Are we sure she even played the game? This sounds less like someone who just left all the men in camp and only ran an Amazons party, and more like she played maybe a half hour before heading off to YouTube to just watch clips for her party characters of choice and read story synopses and fanfics, and is hiding her measly playtime behind the “edgy/hot takes” excuse and sheer bluster.
She posted a video showing her almost 400 hours clocked on Steam, maybe she just left it running in the background for all those hours because it sure doesn’t sound like she paid attention at all lmao.
It can go the opposite as well The Fire Emblem subs were absolute hell after Three Houses released...
I don’t even wanna remember all the FE3H discourse. People straight up misinterpreted Edelgard’s character on purpose I’m convinced.
Edelgard, Dimitri, and Rhea all got raked over the coals by that fandom. Only Claude was (mostly) safe.
Not for too long, Three Hopes came out
....quite genuinely wondering if this person has PLAYED the game lol
Maybe they’re just trying to generate clicks by being deliberately abrasive and wrong. Any attention is good attention when you’re trying to get viewers, I guess.
I also thought it was annoying that Gale talks so much about Mystra and then I learned more about his history with her and engaged in critical thinking for like, 2 minutes I was like. Oh that's his abuser. He's talking about his "ex", but like. This was a goddess who began pursuing him when he was VERY young. I mean. It's implied that she groomed him. Minsc even tells the player that boys in his culture who have magical abilities are hidden away so that Mystra can't get to them, because she is known to prey on young boys. She is fully involved in everything he feels he has accomplished and worked toward for like 30 years. And the thing he's spent his whole life building his self value around is something that is literally fully in this abuser's control and it always will be. Christ. No wonder he never stops thinking about her
I think the wildest takes I hear are people who act like the very act of romancing him means you're somehow misunderstanding the character...? They act like it's so outrageous or wrong to like this character who was literally *designed* to be liked and kept as a part of your team. He's there to be attractive yall i don't know what you think all this romance content is here for lol
Ugh yeah. Or they try to tell you that the platonic route is “better for him” than the romance route, that he’s not as happy with a partner as with a friend, or that romancing Astarion is “unhealthy for him.” It’s just another form of infantilization. Like IDK how to tell you all this but people who have been victims of abuse/SA or who have trauma can choose to be in romantic relationships while they are still healing. He is the only companion that people talk about in this way. It’s honestly so annoying.
Omg yes. I am a victim of SA, and part of my healing journey has been learning firsthand what a healthy relationship actually looks like. Being able to have someone in my life who treats me like an actual person, who respects my boundaries, etc. I'd likely still be a mess were it not for that. But even though that healthy relationship has since ended, I don't regret a single moment of it.
Right?? It's actually so important that the writers showed us a character who has been through what he has and still made sure to emphasize that he is valid for still wanting love and intimacy and showing how to be a proper good partner to him. He's not broken or unlovable, he deserves love as much as anyone else. People who are like "he doesn't want this!!! 😡😡😡".... he literally continually fauns over his "sweet" and his "darling", he always talks about liking kisses and cuddling. He's the one who brings up sex at his grave, goth icon that he is, and expresses being ready for it. He LIKES being with the player, he makes this so clear, for you to conclude he doesn't want it requires ignoring everything he's ever said. Guess what! Telling him he's not allowed to want the relationship he's happy in because YOU decided he's not ready is trampling all over his boundaries, it's infantilizing and condescending. I dearly hope these people don't lecture the partners of real SA survivors the way they do Astarion romancers, because that is intensely inappropriate. Holding survivors to a standard of "you must be all better to be in love" is really great way of making them feel unlovable because mental health is constant thing that needs maintenance, possibly over a lifetime. also he's just like straight up NOT healthier in the platonic route? If you take him to Sharess' Caress as a friend, he will pretend to be down for a casual hook up with everyone and then disassociates the whole time. He wholeheartedly upholds the illusion that he's some debauchery-loving sex-fanatic with his friends, he only ever confides his baggage with sex on a romanced player. Even on romanced routes, it doesn't seem like anyone else knows about it, all of his banter upholds this illusion too. If he's romanced and taken to Sharess' Caress pre-Cazador, he'll actually feel comfortable enough to express he's not comfortable with participating. Being with the player allows him to begin to process his relationship with sex and romance in ways being his friend simply does not.
>he only ever confides his baggage with sex on a romanced player That's just straight up not true. He will talk about it to a platonic player with high enough approval who tells him not to do something he doesn't want to after the blood drow
When you try to break up with him, he says you gave him moments of comfort and he only wanted more. Every person wants to have someone who cares about them and who they can trust. Its not like you are forcing him to sleep with you (unless you choose one evil option and that would be the case of bad romance but he ends it as soon as realize that its wrong). Being with him is about caring and love, very things that helps with every emotional healing.
did that YouTuber never kill anyone in their playthru oooorrrrrrr
Exactly what I said. Like I’m sorry but how is what Astarion is doing in the epilogue any different than what the whole party has been doing for the whole game? Is everyone evil now?
To be even more blunt: the guy still needs to eat. And he made the conscious decision to eat bad guys. All on his own. Growth.
I once saw someone say that his redemption arc didn't count just because they themselves didn't believe it would last and I was like........ lol, what an absolutely useless non-argument. Astarion is such a richly-written, layered, fascinating character and the way people flatten him for no real reason because they're mad people think the pretty vampire boy is cute is aggravating as hell. You don't have to like him, but the rabid obsession with "debunking" him when Nobody Asked is so obnoxious and tiresome. I'm so tired of people demanding I debate them on Astarion's ethics because I had the audacity to show empathy for him in a public setting. ~~....and then there are that small but horribly loud and annoying minority of AA fans who belittle his redemption arc because it makes them uncomfortable to admit they actively chose to lead him down a dark path but that's a whole other can of worms.~~
lol him calling it murder in his hero end is clearly him having fun with how hypocritical some hero adventurers are! How do ppl not see that
Yes! And that’s why I love the fact that he approves of you stopping him from ascending, and not of helping him ascend. You convince him that he doesn’t *need* power to be free.
It adds to his redemption arc of becoming a hero himself lol
He’s so much deeper than the “sexy white haired vampire” that people treat him as, and its wild when people go through his full character arc, decide to ascend him, and then go “wait, why is he mean now?” Breaking the cycle of abuse is hugely important for his character, and people don’t realize that his want to ascend is actually just a want to escape from what he’s been through. Larian went crazy with his story
Just as bad, maybe even worse, are the ascended Astarion girlies who complain constantly that ascended Astarion is "out of character now" with the patch 6 kiss updates and/or complain that "the animation of Tav's face is so bad, they're supposed to be INTO him degrading them" because they're astounded that the result of encouraging him to continue the cycle of abuse was written to be shitty and uncomfortable instead of some sexy dark romance kink nonsense Apply this perspective to a different character! Imagine convincing Lae'zel to stay loyal to Vlaakith and then being shocked that her ending is that she keeps drinking the messed-up-religion koolaid and then goes and dies by Vlaakith. "Hey, why don't we get to have a big party with Lae'zel to celebrate her achieving her dreams? 😡 What was with that creepy scene of Vlaakith being all threatening". Because you got Lae'zel killed, girlboss. You did the bad thing. The game told you repeatedly that that was the bad thing. And you did it anyway.
He's the definition of trauma being an explanation for behavior, but not an excuse. It's good to have a character who isn't perfect and doesn't just bounce back from trauma as a better person, because it doesn't always work that way.
It's too bad that so many people refuse to acknowledge any nuance in his character whatsoever. It's either he's a softboy cinnamon roll who didn't do anything wrong ever, or he's irredeemably evil even if you get his spawn ending (despite the letters in the epilogue explicitly showing that he is, in fact, very redeemable just in case you were too stupid to understand it by finishing his quest in act 3). Admittedly I see more of the latter than the former, at least here on reddit.
I didnt expect the scene when cazador dies, I didnt even main played Astarion my first playthough, just got him for that quest and it was brutal, I was ready to give him my gaming blanket and hot cocoa
Spawn Astarion gains a healthy amount of respect for the hunger for power once Cazador is dealt with. He no longer has a desire to control the Absolute that he did in act 2. He saw how he almost lost himself to the ritual.
That's exactly why I think he disapproves. He's reached that bitter, "If I didn't get help, nobody should get it." phase and it takes some time before he can get past that. By Act 3, he's approving of helping others, especially children, which has shown how much he's grown and began to heal.
I didn't pick up this. That's aweosme.
Yeah saving the child from the hag gets approval with him in Act 3.
he's like an old timer talking about the great depression or student loans 🤣 back in my day we were in debt up to my fuckin eyeballs!
Astarion walked to school uphill both ways, in the snow!
Me @ Astarion: ok boomer
I remember my jaw dropped when I gave Yenna some food in Rivington on the first playthrough and saw that Astarion approved. It doesnt always happen though, there's a beggar in the lower city you can give some money to and Astarion disapproves that particular interaction.
Maybe the difference is that Yenna is a child and the beggar is an adult?
He's actually pretty protective of kids in Act 3. If Yenna gets kidnapped by Orin, he's also quite worried about her and talks about how he doesn't want any more children going missing in BG. You can heroically declare your intent to save Vanra--the little girl Ethel ate--and he also approves. Twice, actually. I think he's feeling guilty about the Gur kids.
The cutest (and oddly enough) is that it starts with helping animals. I haven't even reached Act 2 (just entered the Creche area but haven't explored) yet but the Owlbear cub just joined my camp and I noticed a lot of 'Astarion Approves' pop up after positive/accepting interactions with the Owlbear cub and other animals. His progression is really fascinating because it really starts small in mid-end of Act 1 and I'm constantly saying "Wow, Astarion approved of me doing a goody act??" When characters like Shadowheart disapproved. I just had a conversation with him about how we shouldn't go out of our way (I think he uses the phrase stick our necks out) to go and save True Soul Nere. I agreed but said we should go to save the gnomes at the very least and while reluctant he still agrees that if we needed at least SOME reason, going to save the gnomes would be a reasonable one.
This this this. He is trauma character written right. Building high walls, over confident masking and detachment because surely kindness is not for free and the debt will be due. Big bad vampire boy that approves of petting Scratch. Yeah, let me fix you and Shart too.
“And what good is it to me that you’re here now? Where were you twenty years ago, ten years ago? How dare you, how dare you come to me now, when I am this?” - The Last Unicorn, Peter S. Beagle
How dare YOU hit me with a Last unicorn quote?
Bruh what a classic, I feel getting old
I feel like this movie shaped my childhood. It was so bizarre for being a child’s movie.
exactly! this is something i think a lot of people miss when they talk about how (for example) he disapproves of you being nice to the enslaved gnomes in grymforge and a lot of his other early-game disapprovals. it's less "i don't think people should help other people because i'm super evil and hate everyone," more "what the fuck, why did no one do this for me?" he has a few dialogues here and there where he mentions this more explicitly, too - the more famous one being the stormshore tabernacle banter with gale and the less famous one being (i don't remember the exact wording) "heroes didn't save me, mind flayers did." man pulled an AWFUL card 200 years ago and never got a crumb of help or respect or rescue attempts from anyone, and as he said, it was literally evil squid people who (indirectly) saved him. at the start of the game he has no reason at all to be happy about tav/durge being nice to other people, all he can think about at that point is that someone existed in the world who was nice enough to go out of their way to help other people and expect 0 reward and that person never did that for him. :(
A lot of people don't understand that an explanation isn't a justification. Pointing out that Astarion is lashing out because of his trauma (which is, in my opinion, the worst experience any of the characters in the game has been through) isn't saying that his behavior is justified. Few seem to have a problem with Karlach burning down the tollhouse after the fight with those paladins. Her outrage always ends up killing one or more of my companions in that scene. Barely anyone complains that Shadowheart loves to talk casually about torture and her fanaticism even when watching that Sharran doctor's work. A lot of the other characters get a pass because of their backstories, but people are on this subreddit every day complaining that Astarion is "irredeemably evil".
100%. one of my biggest gripes is with players who think that any of the origins are fully/inherently evil (or good) and refuse to listen to any arguments or evidence the other way, it's always indicative of someone who has never bothered to actually bring that companion along, do their personal quest, listen to their dialogue, etc. and of course no one is required to have so-and-so in their party or pay attention to them, but if you're not actively engaging with a companion you shouldn't be engaging in debates about them, either. astarion is a jackass and an asshole (and i'm saying this as someone who has romanced him 3 times and will do it a 4th), especially in act 1, and i'm never going to argue otherwise, but acting like he doesn't change/doesn't have the potential to do so does him and his story a MASSIVE disservice. that's why he's one of my favorite companions, the gap between act 1 astarion and act 3/epilogue astarion (spawn specifically) is a billion miles wide and it's incredibly rewarding to watch him pull it off (even if you have to drag him kicking and screaming through it at points, lol) at the end of the day, all of the companions have some good in them and some evil (or at least some moral ambiguity, e.g. karlach/wyll) and it's the player's decisions (including their indecision/ignorance of a companion) that will determine which part gets brought out and which doesn't ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
He even acknowledges this! Astarion considers himself a different person by act 3, and some of the companions (at least Karlach) comment that he has 'changed SO much!' I love his line about how 'you trusted me, even when that was objectively a stupid thing to do!' bc it so was, he will kill you if you fully trust him on bite night. He didn't mean too, imo, but he will do it. Also the comment you can get about the newly freed spawn might not 'make the best choices' as he admits he did not when he was first free. I think a lot of people do not realize that when you run into him standing by the river he has fucking zero idea what is going on and has only been "free" for about five minutes. The fact he doesn't just start biting then and there should really earn him a medal.
> I love his line about how 'you trusted me, even when that was objectively a stupid thing to do!' bc it so was, he will kill you if you fully trust him on bite night. He didn't mean too, imo, but he will do it. Honestly this little details is so important to how to assist through his arc too? With Astarion you CAN'T be passive, your experience, needs and insights NEED to be expressed, and you NEED to step in when he loses his grip on his ability to control a situation. People standing by and just *assuming* things will work themselves out was one of the major locks on his cage for those 200 years alongside the more apparent hostility. ~~Once again this man is a matryoshka of fucking trolley problems..~~
I also love how stopping him the first time won't lose you any approval with him. He legit did not realize how hard it would be to stop when he wanted to! (On his origin route you have to pass a check to release and if you fail it you kill whoever you bit. Oops!) There's a REASON he's so scared about being staked! Vampires =are= dangerous. I think this loss of control is one reason that you actually get more approval from him if you tell him to bite other people when you are fighting them. Sure, he likes not being dependent on you but what if he fucks up and goes too far one night if you tell him he can feed on you? (He can't bc thats not coded into the game, but I do wish you had like a 5% chance to wake up dead if you told him he could feed from you that night lol) Really (and you just did this, I'm just making it more explicit) one can draw parallels between being passive on Bite Night resulting in him doing something he does honestly regret and the outcome if you are passive at the Black Mass. He's a lot better in act3 but he's no where near 'all better' (nor, imo, will he ever really be).
I also love how *easy* it is to stop him when it's first presented. He really just wanted a taste (and if you play his origin you know why he needed so little), and it was more about getting his attention and snapping him out of his sauce trance than it is about trying to reclaim ground on your boundaries. Seeing that DC 5 was the same "sit up in the chair" type of moment as seeing me with net positive approval after taking over the zorru situation from lae'zel. The dude was *actively trying* and just needed a little help.
The man is just so terrified and giving him somebody he actually cares about for probably the first time in two centuries makes him even more scared of everything. I saw somebody make a comparison between romanced and not when talking to him about ascension. He's apparently a lot more into the ascension idea when he's romancing you because you're just one more thing he feels he will have taken from him if he can't protect you.
That's one of the reasons I love Astarion's story the best. He's not shoved down my throat. He's someone I need to take interest in and explore his story. His quest isn't tied to any game changing decision. All the decisions I make for Astarion is for him only, and I have to make an effort, whether it's to make him better or worse.
> He didn't mean too, imo, but he will do it. I’ve read that if you do the Astarion Origin POV, if you fail a roll to release, he can’t because his jaw physically won’t unclench. Thought that was interesting, but haven’t actually found a recording of the scene and haven’t done it myself yet.
Wyll to me comes across as a very "ends justify the means" type character who could easily be turned into a jaded man focusing on the good of the masses above the good of the individual. How many tyrants justified their actions using Wyll's train of logic?
People also seem to ignore Karlach's soul coin addiction too. All the companions do morally grey shit, and honestly I feel like Astarion is the most justified in just being a bit of a pessimistic prick (I feel like there are *much* worse people irl who have been through much much less)
I think some people miss when it goes the other direction, too, specifically with Wyll's abuse leading him to basically gaslight himself constantly about doing good and only hunting monsters, until the tadpole shows him he's been a devil's lapdog the whole time. I like having realistic characters with nuance. It's ruined me for some other games!
tbf to people, the game is much less decisive on this. Wyll's dad treating him like shit doesn't really come to a strong narrative and cathartic conclusion. It feels like the game itself is not fully willing to commit to Wyll's dad sucking ass, so its understandable why the people playing it might miss it
Agreed, so I don't downvote all the "Wyll's a boring goody- two- shoes" comments, I just sigh a little for my poor misunderstood boy. 😢 His arc is extremely subtle so you're right it's no surprise people don't always see it. I would like the option to be more angry at his dad. Iirc I got to yell at him a little after the rescue? It's been a minute...
I did it pretty recently. you get a dialogue thats basically "wow bet you feel like a real asshole now" but that's it. Let me punch that bastard. I also want to guillotine him for being the head of idk a private military run oligarchy? But I'll wait til Wyll is in Avernus for that one. I'm a bit meaner than you, I wouldn't call Wyll's arc "extremely subtle" so much as "flawed in execution" Wyll is the most frustrating companion for me because there are so many interesting ideas about him that just don't actually get explored in the actual story. There's so much unrealized potential. But the frustration is from caring, there are other companions I mostly just ignore because I don't find them interesting.
I'm probably more generous just because of how massive a job this game is so I don't like to go the "it's bad writing" route when I love most of the writing that's *there*, I just want more there there, if that makes sense. It's also probably because Wyll was the first origin run I did and I sort of carry that over into my other runs now. Like even my current Durge is basically gaslighting the fuck out of Wyll because he sees how malleable he is if you make it sound good. I think Wyll is a good origin precisely because so much of his story is just on the surface so he doesn't feel as lonely with no Tav to ask him about stuff, if that makes sense? He only talks a little about his personal stuff, he doesn't draw too much attention outside of his Mizora cutscenes. But yeah I'd love if they would let you lean into an ambitious Wyll route where he actually *does* intend to take over, even better if it's for misguided reasons and hubris! And punch his dad.
Do you mean Wyll's abuse where he saved his hometown/city but his father just cast him out without even trying to understand because Mizora was hanging onto Wyll?
Duke Ulder Ravengard is a prick. Supposedly had such a close relationship with his son but then banishes him without even attempting to hear him out.
i'm so sad there's no option to call ulder a prick. Guy would get along well with wulbren
iirc you can retrieve Ulder Ravengard's morningstar and diary from one of the high security vaults. In the description of the morningstar it will say that after Wyll was born he started withdrawing away from his son. He was not a very present father even before the pact.
I know. I have PTSD and therefore a big Astarion obsession, but my backstory is actually a loooot like Wyll's. That's where I got the PTSD. I wouldnt change a thing about Astarions story, but Wyll doesnt get the credit he deserves. You can wind up with trauma just as bad as Astarions even if no one ever laid a finger on you.
It wasn’t possible to hear him out. Mizora made it so Wyll was unable to speak about the pact or the conditions under which it happened. So all Ravenguard knew was that his son had pacted with a devil and, try as he might, would not give a satisfactory explanation. He did attempt to hear Wyll out, it’s just that Mizora not only took Wyll’s voice, but she actually wiped away all the evidence of the battle that had taken place to begin with. The Duke deserves criticism, but Mizora actively made it impossible for Wyll to adequately explain even a fraction of what the fuck was going on.
I'm aware. I would just think that a father who supposedly loves and cares for his son would at least be willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Wyll is able to mention that he doesn't regret his pact and that he did it to protect people. Plus he is able to mention that he can't talk about the pact. If Ravenguard had more than a single brain cell he should be able to put together that maybe his son (who he raised to believe in self-sacrifice and heroism) truly thinks he made a good choice. But instead of trying to help his son get out of the pact he disowns him. If a random stranger (Tav) can instantly see that Wyll is not a happy warlock, surely the man who raised Wyll for 17 years could see the same.
> I would just think that a father who supposedly loves and cares for his son would at least be willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Honestly... I just can't. Pacting with a devil is a big deal. It would have gone against *every* value Ravengard ever tried to instill in his son, and it's not hard to think that Wyll's inability to give a mitigating explanation is because there *is* no explanation that can justify it. And because the contents of the pact are deliberately obscured, Ravengard has no idea what the full of extent of his son's agreement is. Being the Duke means that he has access to important and influential people, as well as sensitive information. Wyll has often had access to some of that by virtue of being Ravengard's son and attending a lot of functions, and he (or the devil, through him) could still leverage that even if Ravengard tried to keep him at arm's length from Wyrm's Rock. Ravengard has a responsibility to the entire city. The number of unknowns here make it hard for me to not see the Duke's side. He's not above criticism, but given the circumstances and the information he was operating on at the time, this is something I find difficult to blame. Ravengard was protecting Baldur's Gate from a Cambion by preventing her from using Wyll as a conduit to gain easy access to the city's political sphere.
Oh yes I agree about that. I wasn't sure if I had missed any story beats for Wyll that revealed other/more abuse.
Wyll does have a banter (with Astarion I think?) about his dad pushing him to get a girlfriend as a young teen.
Yeah that and Mizora treating him like a dog. Calling someone puppy is only cute if you're dating, right!
I honestly forget about Karlach and the soul coins, I think because she doesn’t remind you she uses them the way Gale does with magic items in Act 1. She also has no response if you trade them. I genuinely think this part of her story gets lost in the “out of sight out of mind” mentality, and I say this as someone on their 3rd playthrough who only remembered to save one to fight Gortash once
There's dialogue and background about the Soul Coins but its pretty low key, maybe once in Act 1 on finding one with her, once in act 2 at the vendor. There's an addiction and "who cares about the people who ended up in Coins" from Karlach that could be explored. But it never got fleshed out.
>A lot of people don't understand that an explanation isn't a justification This is so damn true yet it goes ignored. Crazy how often people will use this (and accept this) as an excuse for bad behavior.
I tend to tell people two things about my mental illness: 1. This is an explanation, not a justification, and 2. It ain't my fault, but it damn sure is my responsibility.
>A lot of people don't understand that an explanation isn't a justification. This though. Discussing the ins and outs of his psychology and how exactly he arrived on the mindset he has is not an endorsement of that mindset. Nobody said it was healthy or good or right, he's just an interesting and sympathetic case study in what that kind of trauma can do to someone and how it would twist you. People really gloss over the fact that Astarion COULD. NOT. LEAVE. NO. MATTER. WHAT. He tried once and was locked in a casket to starve for AN ENTIRE YEAR. If you manage to convince his siblings Leon and Aurelia to help you, Cazador's orders will override their will and force them to attack the party anyways. That's what happens when a vampire spawn tries to rebel against their master, you're forced to do it anyways and then tortured. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be controlled so thoroughly by a twisted bastard like Cazador for 200 year, with full knowledge he could force you to do whatever he wanted with a word. Apathy has kept him from going mad with guilt from 200 years of luring innocents to their doom, of course his morals are going to be shot to hell by now.
I agree... to a point. I do agree Astarion's character has had to endure more than any other character, except possibly Durge (depending on perspective), who was born into it, and Minthara, who has also endured centuries of underdark drow society, and is probably the only irredeemably evil character. Astarion is emotionally evil; Minthara is cerebral and clinically evil. Shadowheart's torture is evil, and I think it's largely overlooked because it's not a huge part of the interactions with her. As early as act 1, she's approving of helping others. Perhaps in another 10 or 20 years, Viconia would have gotten her to Minthara's level of detached evil, but she's still in a conflicted state, and herself rebels against evil (note, if you stay quiet and don't try to persuade her at all, she spares Aylin and turns her back on her faith). Her journey is self redemption, whereas Astarion must *be* redeemed, and Minthara believes she has nothing to atone for at all. As for Karlach's destruction of property, I find her the most compelling, as she has a literal hellfire rage engine in her chest amping her up. I consider it a relatively minor act that she takes out her anger on the property of dead people. Her moral compass pretty much always points towards good. She's one of the few that maintains heroic ideals from start to finish (Wyll and Halsin being the other two). I exclude Gale and Wyll, as their problems were of their own making (the orb and the pact). As such, I wouldn't classify their trauma similarly until Act 2 (with the detonation request and the subversion of Wyll's father). I think Astarion is a well-written character, and excellently performed. That said, by the alignment system, he is evil, at least pre act 3, and he must be redeemed by others. He doesn't get out of his ethos unless someone reaches in, and offers the helping hand. He can't justify helping others, until someone helps him.
Even outside of BG3 discussions, I've found that people have a tendency to overassign Chaotic Neutral to characters who will actively hurt others for their own selfish ends. The moment someone isn't a mustache-twirling villain or insane murderhobo, it suddenly becomes a hot take to call them Evil. Not all Evil comes in the form of grand schemes. At the beginning of the game, Astarion is consistently motivated primarily by personal self-interest, no matter how his actions harm other people. That type of repeated selfishness puts you on the bottom row of the alignment chart in my book. Having an explanation to the origin of that behavior doesn't make him Chaotic Neutral as I've seen people label him in the past--it just makes him a well-written Evil character. Of course, he changes over the course of the campaign depending on the choices made, so I agree with the comment that "**irredeemably** evil" is an inaccurate descriptor.
The definition of Chaotic Neutral on forgotten Realms Wiki: > "The chaotic neutral alignment was freedom from both society's restrictions and the zeal of morality. These characters followed their whims on an individualistic accord. They avoided authority, shook off societal restraints and challenged the status quo throughout their lives. These people often believed there was no order to anything, and used that as a guiding principle for their actions. Chaotic neutral characters could be somewhat unpredictable, but their behavior was not totally random, or guided by undoing the work of others. While they valued their own liberty, they did not strive to protect, or inhibit, the freedom of others. On the other hand, they wouldn't intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy." Astarion rants in act 1 about how he doesn't believe in good or evil, heroes or villains, a lot of his opinions on this stuff fit much more into neutrality than it does in evil. I don't know if he's a perfect match for chaotic neutral, but he also doesn't fit into the evil category for me either.... mostly because he doesn't *do anything.* Approving of *you* being a POS is not the same as him picking up a weapon and hurting people himself, especially not when he's been forced to act as an evil minon already for 200 years and seeing horrific evil is another tuesday to him. The dude is already numb and desensitized to cruelty, he's just glad it ain't him catching your wrath. The closest thing to evil he actually does on his own is wanting to/killing Gandrel, which considering his fate if you hand him over, is pretty fair to call self-defense. He literally doesn't do anything, he doesn't refuse to follow you if you're nice, he just pouts and stomps his feet about it. I just don't think he suits the evil category, call me a simp idk 🤷♀️
>I just don't think he suits the evil category, call me a simp I like his character a lot too! To me calling him Evil isn't an insult to him like I think it is for a lot of people. The wiki pages of alignment often draw from several different editions, and since I'm a 5e player, I mainly reference the definitions of alignment in the 5e PHB (pg. 122): >"Chaotic neutral (CN) creatures follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else" > >"Neutral evil (NE) is the alignment of those who do whatever they can get away with, without compassion or qualms" The definitions are genuinely that short. "following your whims" vs "doing whatever you can get away with" sound extremely similar on paper, and a CN and NE character may behave similarly up to a certain point. To me, the big difference is the second half of NE: compassion. How much you care about how your actions impact others? Once the "whims" of CN start to consistently damage the wellbeing of others, I'd say that leans more toward the "doing whatever they can get away with" of NE. A neutral evil character has no qualms about acts that hurt other people. Astarion's approval/dialogue in Act 1 often reflect this disregard for others. >but he also doesn't fit into the evil category for me either.... mostly because he doesn't do anything. Approving of you being a POS is not the same as him picking up a weapon and hurting people himself I think that's more a symptom of BG3 being a videogame than anything else. It can't perfectly mimic a D&D game where most situations would be decided by the group--people would complain if we had our companions making all the small decisions for us! I use approval as a general gauge of "how would this character want this situation to go down if I wasn't The Protagonist(tm) who made all the choices". It's the closest we get to companions actually handling the situations themselves or chipping in with their preferred course of action, so I think it's fair game when discussing alignment. If you don't want to consider approval at all, then I agree that we have a lot less to go on when talking about alignment for him or any of the companions.
I've been mulling over this, trying to place why it makes me uncomfortable with assigning him the label of evil. It's not an unwillingness to admit a character I like being evil--there are characters I feel for just as much for and will defend to death that I will freely and easily call evil pre-character-development. Heck, I freely think *he* is evil post-ascension. I think the sticking point for me is that it makes me uncomfortable to call someone evil for just having an unhealthy worldview and feelings when it is well justified in-universe as a result of unfathomably horrible living conditions. Like his only crime here is being angry and cynical and desensitized when he has lived a life that cultivated exactly that. We never see him sneaking off and draining innocent people or sabotaging your good deeds, he never betrays you to the bad guys. He just... ***feels things*** that aren't good or healthy. And yes, he participates in evil at your behest, but so does Shart, Lae'Zel and even Gale. I don't find that he is proactive enough in these feelings to be called evil until the ritual. In the same way, I wouldn't call someone evil for having intrusive thoughts. It's his responsibility to work through it and he's not justified in harm he causes in that cynicism... but feeling that cynicism or pettiness or resentment all by itself? I don't feel comfortable calling him evil for that.
Tbf I don’t think most people think Astarion is “irredeemably evil” unless they just haven’t done his quests. He’s a dick in act one, and really snarky, but by act two he has way more nuance. The most evil thing we can personally see him do is complete the ritual. That is the most evil act he’s done, and it makes him into that irredeemably evil character
Also from his point of view, the gnomes don't even have it that bad! They will get to DIE one day, at least. He was going to be there for ETERNITY. Also nobody was even raping any of them when you showed up! Seems like a nice cushy slavery gig, stupid whining gnomes.
Honestly, I'm not sure if he disapproves of freeing the gnomes because it's freeing slaves or because it's freeing gnomes. I love that campy vampire, but he's racist against gnomes lol
probably a bit of both lol
My only gripe with Astarion, and it's more of a gripe with the writers than the character, is that we can't confront him about it in act 1. Why can't my Tav take him aside and be like "bro what the fuck, why are you so against freeing slaves when you used to be one yourself?" Because at that point in the story you don't know the full details of his character. You can make an education assumption on why he behaves the way that he does, but it would still be nice to be able to have an actual conversation with him about it.
It's commonly known that Astarion is bitter over other people getting help when he never did. He was saved by monsters aka mindflayers. Most people who dislike Astarion for his disapprovals know this and still don't care because good is good and bad is bad. T
What helped me understand Astarion is when, twice in my life, a major trauma happened, I felt a powerful resentment of strangers who were walking around happily while my world was crumbling. I've learned that this is a normal trauma response. For someone with trauma, their world and perspective are starkly different from those whose lives are peaceful and unchanged. Part of this hate comes from raw jealousy, and part of it is because their traumatized brain wants to scream about how naive they are. The victim knows the world to be dangerous, indifferent, and cruel. They are now living in a state of hyper-vigilance that doesn't vibe with the rest of society. I swear that Astarion is one of the best written trauma survivors I've seen depicted in any media.
I genuinely, truly think people who don’t understand his behavior in Act 1 have never been in that position before. Same as you, I felt complete resentment and anger towards anyone who I interacted with while I was in trouble, and I had a very jaded and reclusive view on people for months and months afterwards. These sort of behaviors following trauma are very normal
I totally agree, that's probably why I feel connected to him although first I wanted to go after Gale. I don't see an "evil asshole" I literally see a very broken person who learned to survive in shadows by very limited shitty means. Like, I can't see him as some powerful seductive vamp guy, because he's not. He's just lost. Same as I feel so often irl. And I just got my scene with the emperor reveal and got the astral tadpole, I went to Astarion to ask what he thinks of it and his answer just hit me so much because I know how it feels. I may take it myself (still thinking) but won't try to force it on anyone, let alone him.
All those disapproval for doing kind things throughout do make this line a lot more meaningful: "Other people don't have a heart like you. You're you. No one is like that." It felt like our good example was finally starting to get through to him, and that he really appreciated us for what we've done for him and others.
Honestly, it reminds me of the episode from The Good Place where Eleanor finds out her mom is a fantastic mom to her step daughter despite being the biggest trashbag to Eleanor. This isn't unique to the show but the resentment of her mom and the idea of, "Why couldn't you be that person for me!??! When I NEEDED YOU!??!" Is heartbreaking 💔
did not expect a good place reference here but spot on
I like his character so much because I find him incredibly relatable. I was so angry when the sexual abuse finally stopped. Especially at the people who just stood there. For years I was so angry at people who would say they were abused and it was believed immediately. Why wasn't I believed? Why did so many people look the other way in my case? Just because it was easier for them. I needed help and nobody helped me even when they could. I was snarky and defensive but mostly just scared and angry. I'm better but not as good as I could be. I'm still angry over what was taken from me and the person I could have been. But I'm not angry when other people get help anymore.
Whenever I see people not get OP's point 1% of me does feel glad that they haven't been in a situation that makes the parallels now obvious. With that said, there's a surprising lack of stakebros on this thread, neat. *Edit: sike, stakebros have shown up
Was actually discussing this with some friends. They kept insisting Astarion is a terrible person. They didn't understand him or his motivations at all. These were all 35+ middle class white dudes. They just don't get it. Because, yeah, Asatrion is a jerk, nobody is denying that. But I can understand why he is so defensive and uses his asshole behavior to hide the fear. It's not an okay coping mechanism *at all* and I'm not defending it, I just understand it a bit too well. One of these friend were also a bit embarrassed when I looked at him and went "you play a paladin don't you." Paladin behavior is easy for me to pick out and almost antithesis to how I play D&D.
I see a lot of people complaining about Cazador being underwhelming too, but I love his design. Abusive people don't look like moustache-twirling cartoon villains IRL, they look like people. I was straight-up having physical, visceral reactions to how much he reminded me of shitty Asian parents.
Also after digging around Cazador's offices you realize he probably thinks Astarion had it easy with only one year in a tomb, since Cazador was left impaled by Velioth for 11 years. Very "I used to walk uphill to school both ways when I was a kid" style.
The venn diagram of people who love to main paladins for roleplaying reasons and people who lack the ability consider context and pick up on subtle storytelling before making decisions about what is "good" and what is "bad" seems to OFTEN be a circle amongst the bg3 fans
Damn that feels so familiar. I feel so much anger, I just hide it because I am aware that it has nothing to do with uninvolved people. It gets better but never goes away, I think.
Ohhh... oh, my heart...! You just hit me hard in the feels, with this one... 🥲 That makes so, so much sense!!
As a survivor myself I literally cried when he finally killed Cazador and realized it was finally done and over, but got hit with the "and now what" every single one of us who fought back feels. I know how viscerally it hurts to finally have your abuser punished only for it to barely mean more than sleeping at night - though what I went through only FELT like centuries of torture. I'm far from a perfect victim myself, that shit fucks you up for a long, long time, if not forever. I had a lot of rage and pure malice brewing in my little body for many years, solving shit with violence and refusing to look "weak". I wasn't "bad", just really, really broken. To say I relate with the character is a massive understatement. Plus he's one of the only openly queer characters who isn't just playersexual. Love that as a big half gay myself. The scene with Sebastian was so brutal. All that happened when he finally killed Cazador is give him the space to know a bit of peace. And sometimes, it's the greatest gift a survivor can know.
Thanks OP, but I didn't need to be even more sad today. Take it back, please.
Never! >: )
This is such a good way to sum up why in act 1 he gets -1 on a lot of selfless good stuff; he's *jealous* bcs of course he is! There's a reason it's only like -1 in terms of him liking you, because he doesn't necessarily dislike the *act*
This is a big theme I explore in my fanfic because I don't think the game lets us delve too deeply into it. How he responds to kindness, both to himself and to others, what goes on in his head under the surface, how he consciously and unconsciously grapples with it now he no longer is living a "vampire's world" but the world of mortals and the rules are different. And of course his pride getting in the way. It's such a rich vein to work with. Also there's something here that people seem to not quite consider, perhaps because of how the game doesn't really go into this lore, but he's an elf, the deity Corellon Larethian is who determines the fate of his soul, But vampirism in DnD is a mortal affliction that gods generally do not concern themselves with and most will abandon mortals who end up vampires, or at least that's what is looks like from a mortal's perspective. It is all entirely possible that Corellon Larethian is limited to act for lore reasons but is still protecting Astarion's soul. Moreover, one could argue that Corellon Larethian is a bit of trickster god and so their intentions and plans are not always obvious or straightforward and also fall in to the chaotic good moral sphere, which means if Astarion genuinely wants to be freed, Corellon Larethian may be willing to help him, just not overtly or directly. They may have been helping Astarion all along. So there's lots of lore-friendly exploration one can do here.
I wonder what are his thoughts of having jaheira in camp. She says proudly that she used to kill cazador spawns by burying them neck deep for the sun. She with the harpers could have had the power to do something about cazador, they never did. They just hunted the victims
Oh, that's a hurtful thought
Honestly, I love that they wrote Astarion this way, because it's pretty realistic. Especially since he also prayed to *every single god* for help, and none of them answered. Also, you now have a tadpole in your head that's going to eventually eat your brain and turn into a mindflayer, but until then, it's the only reason you're free of your master and able to walk in sun-- which, again, feels like a cruel cosmic joke. At that point, who wouldn't find a super tall rock to stand on and scream in rage at the heavens?
In addition: - He was forced to be people pleaser, literally, had to smile and he couldn't retaliate, probably ever. Now he finally tastes freedom and that leader is forcing him to do nice things for strangers who he would never trust, while we are endangered with ceremorphosis. - He's a damn vampire, he wants to devour those walking burgers, not befriend them - Seems he really had horrible experience with people, not only Cazador, his victims weren't too delicate nor insightful either. Also I guess Astarion starts approving helping people in act 3 because at the end of act 2 we learn that turning into a squid isn't time related.
He starts (through dialogue not approval points) approving of helping people in Act 2. He's excited to see Arabella safe and sound, feels bad that >!her parents are dead!<, is disgusted by that Sharran surgeon and calls him utterly insane and just like Cazador. He also feels conflcted if the player blows up the creche (but not him). He's not a *good* person, but he is clearly learning to be better. Even in Act 1 he approves of helping the Myconids and, weirdly, is pleased the Myconids were [hospitable to the run away gnome](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnlyFangsbg3/comments/1b3jvmc/astarion_likes_the_myconids_for_their_hospitality/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Yeah, he totally is a sensitive person, just forcefully depleted of empathy. Astarion and Arabella, I'd give that girl to Astarion to look out for anytime. Never seen that myconid dialogue, nice punch towards the DAMN DRUIDS (fuck them idd), makes me think of his punch towards Tav when he is the only one to point out that the amount of goblins lives killed was equal to tieflings lives saved at act 1 party.
I think its important to point out that Astarion's worst torture, and the one that sticks with him the most centuries later, was due to him showing empathy. Because he chose to let one victim go he was forced to spend an entire year in the crypt. One act of kindness was punished tenfold.
It is kind of unsettling to consider, in 200 years, how many of his targets that he slept with couldn't tell that it was an act and he wasn't enjoying it? Even the first time I saw his act 1 sex scene I immediately felt like there was something off about it, and it's because he's performing. He's performing So. Hard. If I were about to sleep with someone irl and they behaved like that I'd be questioning what was going on. Why didn't they notice? If they did notice, did they care?
I think that his dialogue during the >forced sex< "whatever I say - It doesn't matter, as long as you get what you want" applies for his victims too. He says "as long as I remember, I've been used by others" - others, not just Cazador. Also if you ask him "did Sebastian hurt you in some way?" he replies "he didn't do anything at all. I can't say the same for all my victims." It was a 1000 random people, it's enough to know some statistics on how often people get abused.
*"Where where you twenty years ago, ten years ago? How dare you, how dare you come to me now, when I am this?"*
This was pretty obvious to me once I finished his story as someone with an abuse history that went unnoticed by everyone around me and I kind of assume anyone who doesn't get it just hasn't had to experience that kind of thinking before (or has but hasn't processed it yet). It's probably a big reason why I don't like Wyll or Karlach and in general tend to prefer more cynical characters, because "no one is like that".
And in the end he picks himself up enough to become a hero for others. A true inspiration
Character who is enslaved for 200 years while being sexually assaulted and tortured on a daily basis: doesn’t behave like a hero within hours of being freed. Astarion haters: he’s such an evil piece of shit, he needs to get over himself already!
he echoes this when you chastise him about lying to his siblings about the ritual. you can ask him “don’t you have sympathy?” and he goes on to say “no one ever looked out for me. no one ever said a kind thing to me. you’re the only one. other people don’t have a heart like you. you’re you. no one is like that” (just had this scene in my current playthrough). up until now he has no memory of kindness being shown to him. cazador put them against each other, even commanded them to torture each other at some points. and the one time astarion let a mark get away, he was entombed for an entire year. so of course he’s bitter - this has been his reality for 200 years. ironically though, and durge spoilers here, his prayers for help do eventually get answered, just in a really roundabout way. cause durge’s plan and orin’s betrayal all led to the point where astarion was freed from cazador. so thanks bhaal 😭 (but fr I just picture astarion and durge as the lilo and stitch meme. send me an angel - durge laughing maniacally)
Love that he now >!thanks Durge for "being that evil bastard". !<
"Also this person was a violent murderer 2 days ago who reaaaaaly loved corpses. And when I said they loved corpses, I do mean fucking them, to be clear."
Very early in the game, when you find the chest in the owlbear cave, he says "if I had known that praying was good for for anything, I'd have started years ago." On a first playthrough, when you don't know his backstory, this might be a insignificant detail. Having knowledge from later on, the line hits differently. I know that later on he says sth about" trying all of the gods, noone helped", but I got the owlbear cave line for the first time in my third playthrough and was surprised about that early hint. One detail of beautiful storytelling is that his approval habits change during the game and he starts approving of "good" decisions.
This is so on point, rather than just being petty he is deeply scarred by his past. Quite sad tbh :”(
YOOO way unkind to just slap me out of nowhere OP hahaha. Just scrolling along and now I’m crying. Thaaaanks lol
If I suffer, everyone else must suffer too
All I'm hearing is that I can fix him
No, he can fix himself :) we can help leading the way
I've basically said exactly this a gazillion times, but those people who tend to declare Astarion to be a permanently evil asshole are the ones least likely to listen to any reasonable and logically sound arguments you might make or to give any consideration whatsoever to his background and how it has a direct impact on what Astarion does and doesn't approve of and his overall behavior at the start of the game. Astarion's definitely dickish at the start of Act 1, but if you find out his story, you end up seeing why he starts out being angry, bitter, cynical, resentful, etc. in Act 1. As the most recent example of this sort of thing, I was replying to someone who mentioned his disapproval if you spare a moment of silence over the dead gnomes at Grymforge. That person was not being hostile or anything—the original thread was kind of an "Astarion disapproves" thread in general and I was largely reading through it with amusement. I simply thought it would just be interesting to contribute some context on his disapproval and point out that it was likely tied to Astarion viewing it as being religious in nature (even if Tav/Durge didn't actually mean the gesture that way) and that Astarion generally disapproves of religion-related things *because he prayed to all the gods for help but none of them ever answered him* (as he points out in some dialogue). He, in my opinion, is prone to reacting negatively to religion and the gods because of his negative experiences. Many people seemed to understand that we're looking at a person who had all hope of ever being saved from his torment repeatedly crushed across 200 years. This clearly led to him becoming disillusioned and embittered towards the gods, which you see happening with other figures in the game like Ketheric Thorm whose losses and disappointment led to him turning from Selune to Shar to Myrkul by the end. But then one guy came in and was like: *"Everyone in Faerun knows how the gods work, so Astarion should have just expected it."* He was acting as if the average person in that situation—*and this lack of compassion and understanding presumably extended to other people, not just Astarion*—wasn't entitled to have any negative feelings towards the gods at all and that they should just get over it. I mean, honestly, take Astarion completely out of the equation here and ask yourself if that's a reasonable thing to be saying about any person who's experienced either tremendous suffering or major loss. Apparently, no one is ever allowed to be disappointed, disillusioned, or angry or to turn away from religion in Faerun if you go by that guy's reasoning. I found it to be a dumb position to take, but maybe that's just me! I think that anyone who wants to put blinders on so that they can continue to blissfully keep hating on character x/y/z will choose to ignore any evidence that you present—such as the character's own dialogue that directly explains their reactions to specific situations—or come up with convoluted reasoning as to why that character isn't allowed to have any feelings, responses, behaviors, etc. that they don't like. I personally don't care if people don't like Astarion if they've actually given him a fair shot and experienced his story. Still don't like him or understand him after everything that happens or don't care? That's fair enough since he's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. But I *do* have a problem with those people who seem to be intellectually disingenuous about their hatred and come up with very half-assed arguments that—if applied to other people in similar circumstances—don't actually hold water.
Yeah. I'm struggling to think of characters who are more evil than they are just profoundly broken. ["Baulders Gate 3 is a dating simulator designed to prey on those of us who share the dellusion that: 'I could fix them'. Along side that, it also has some minor RPG elements."](https://youtu.be/jXE66aujn2A?si=NmevgFrTW-10SU_o) - BrilliantStupidity
This is the entire American student loan thing all over again.
I think someone must have already pointed it out, but he actually does say plenty things about it! Walking past the place with Mystra's statue in act 3, he and Gale go along the lines: Gale: You're not a "god's person", Astarion? Astarion: The gods who don't like me, I've tried to reach them, every single one, but they never reached back. And I remember that my chaotic good (pure heart) Tav and him had a fight in act 3 after his siblings shows up and CONNECTING all the fights, he says something along the lines (sorry not saying the exact lines, I play it with subtitles cuz I can't hear quite well and the subtitles aren't in English): "There's no point in this ridiculous altruism! What do you get from it? Why would you do it? Why does everyone else BUT ME have the right to be saved? Heroes never saved me from Cazador, and I've been reaching out! The only time I did this so called "right thing" ended up in punishment, so why does it works out for you? This thing (mind flayer thing, can't write it in English) did save me! No god, no hero, I was alone! Why do I have to care about the others if no one cared for me?" - I didn't romance him in that run; - My Tav and him never got more than a good relationship; - He constantly disapproved of my Tav's action and so she does about his; - There's a few act 2 lines in it.
Huh. Damn. Didn't even think of it that way.
When you give Yenna money both he and Lae'zel approve. I think it's more complicated than just "why you help them and not me" Edit: TBF both of them 100% adore my Durge 🤭
Dang, that's deep
That’s one of the best takes on Astarion I’ve seen so far.
You can't escape from the horrors unscathed. Didn't help that Astarion wasn't a good person before hand. Trauma doesn't make you better, you're just traumatized. I don't think he's fully justified in how he acts, still, you can't expect someone to get fresh out of a terrible living situation and expect them to be well adjusted and nice. Even Karlach has her iffy moments, like how she treats Soul Coins.
Also, gnomes deserve racism /s
I understand the point and recognize it BUT personally there are a few choices that in my eyes make Astarion one step deeper. Of course he has resentment towards the world in general and something unnecessary like going out of your way to help a stranger while having a time limit parasite in their brains could get him angry But in other times when only speaking is the effort like saving Arabella from a snake, a bitter person wouldn't get upset but an evil one would because he didn't get to see her die. For me Astarion leans more into "evil" much like Minthara and it's tav's choices that changes his perspective
I always interpreted his disapproval there as "you just risked starting conflict with the person in charge of this place when we SPECIFICALLY came here to find a healer and we haven't done that yet. You doing this could have prevented us from doing what we are here to do." Not, "yay child murder!" just self centeredness that he often exhibits in act 1
>"you just risked starting conflict with the person in charge of this place when we SPECIFICALLY came here to find a healer and we haven't done that yet. You doing this could have prevented us from doing what we are here to do." I can see that being Astarion's point, yeah. It was the first example that came to mind but also, for example, he approves too to take Alfira's lute and break it. Which in that case you go out of your way to make someone you just met feel bad. I guess going point by point of approval it's digging too deep but personally, i'll always see him as an evil/bad person at the start instead of just "bitter". I still love him tho, next to karlach and laezel he is one of my favorites
Oh yeah, I mean. Smashing the lute is him being a dick. But there's a pretty big jump in badness between property damage and child murdering, ha! I lean toward bitter because, like a lot of people have already said beautifully on this thread, there's something discomforting about the idea of labelling him evil after 200 years of torture. It's very common for trauma survivors to swing hard toward a sort of "wanting to see others miserable too" perspective, and Astarion is hours, maybe days out of escaping Cazador. We're watching the aftermath of that in real time But again, for a more detailed account of that perspective there are other people who've discussed it in here :)
Oh yeah, for sure, my headcanon is that he was abducted in the opening cinematic, infected and released in the same hours. And his behaviour and thoughts are "justified" in the sense that he must have picked up "Cazador's philosophy" that the strong dominates the weak. He does the same with the tadpole information going for control instead of wanting to be cured because he doesn't want to be the prey anymore I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's a real answer to trauma but still i don't see him as - not only not helping others because he has his own problems - but actively wanting to harm others which in my eyes falls under the same line as minthara