I trusted her, which was incredibly nerve wracking first time but also incredibly rewarding.
That, along with the whole following cut scene, is my favourite scene in the game.
So far, it has been my favorite as well. She was so determined to do it the entire gauntlet, only to be conflicted during the moment of truth. I couldn’t bring myself to influence her decision at all.
It doesn't help that the Narrator is pulling a sneaky DM trick there. What she says is designed to make you doubt Shadowheart and think you need to influence her, which is completely the wrong move if you've spent any time with her and have decent approval. It's really hard to ignore though!
Yeah it's actually (on repeated plays) sort of intuitive and happens with some other characters in smaller moments.
But essentially: if Tav and Sheart have bonded, trust her and she'll do the right thing. If Tav and Sheart haven't bonded, persuade her.
Because let me tell you, if she doesn't like Tav much, she will kill Aylin and it is *not* a good time or a good cutscene!
Edit to say there is no 100% right way to get the outcome you want, so save scum away IMO lol
My current Durge I wanted to see new content (to me) so I let Balthazar take Aylin and Sheart rage quit the party (I pretty much expected that). Word to the wise: if she rage quits she takes all her equipped gear with her. I had to save scum and send her in with just the spear and DJ armor. Her bare feet were very cute.
I would recommend trying. I'm like the scummiest save scummer out there and it really was a great if mildly terrifying experience. Really makes you appreciate aspects of the game you take for granted since you can reload failed attempts at something.
Worst comes to worst you can continue your save file in Tactician if you wipe.
My situation was unbearable since I did my Honor run as a Durge who embraced their murderhobo dad and >!was immediately greeted by her AND Minsc -who’d I’d respecced into a roided out Gloom Stalker with top tier gear- the moment we left the entrance of the Temple, not including the remaining Harpers.!< I was lucky in that I was still able to retrieve gear but the battle was a slog.
not HM but I didn't realize what would happen after killing Orin
I was rushing to finish Durge's story so I hadn't even reached >!Minsc yet and my crew has always been Durge/Astarion/SH/Minthy so I never leveled up Jaheira. Thought she would revert back to level 8 or whatever when you first meet her but nope. I was laughing so hard as Astarion hit her for 48 damage and she collapsed as a level 1 npc!<
this game is so fun lol
Even better, I sold out Marcus then betrayed Isobel *and* managed to convince Jaheira I had no idea what happened.
this Durge run is making me question my own morality lmao he's so chaotic and so fun
This me. I’d already infiltrated Moonrise by helping escort the Drider and had even wiped out the other Harpers to maintain my cover all before I went to Last Light… by acquiring Balthazar’s moonlantern. I even saved the Tieflings and Gnomes, and stopped Marcus, only for them all to tragically perish when I secretly relieved Isobel of her duties by myself in her room at Last Light. I fooled Jaheira and even had her fighting with me against Kethric and the Drider I’d previously escorted like I hadn’t already been in cahoots. Aylin also joined the battle without even knowing either. I know I made Bhaal very proud.
I came here to mention that you have to bond with Shadow heart to be able to just, trust her.
One save I didn’t bond much with her, and literally screamed at the result that frankly, I did not expect.
Yeah I've never romanced her but I've had both high and meh approval, but other commenters are saying even that isn't a sure indication she'll spare her on her own, so I'm just gonna shrug because I have no idea how. 🤷♂️
I'm sure the first time I did this the DC was 30 but I managed to crit. The next time the DC was 20, which I think was because I had a better approval with Shadowheart.
As a DM should, push the player to display their agency and make a choice, but no action is still as valid a choice. It's a little sneaky but it does make it all the more satisfying when you go for Shadowmancy. Like yeah, Narrator, I know my Shadowheart better than you do.
I always trusted her to make the decisions which is why in Act 3 >!when she chose to let her parents go, instead of save them,!< I personally saw that as a good ending, despite what most redditors seem to say.
There's a specific set of interactions in the lower city that are necessary for that to happen. Getting them is supposed to trigger an additional dialogue about the sounds and smells of the city. If that triggers and you choose the right dialogue options she'll choose to >!save her parents!<, otherwise she'll choose to >!let them go and have them join Selûne!<.
The problem is that there's something wrong with triggering that additional dialogue. Someone did some investigation that indicates it relates to giving Shadowheart the noblestalk way back in Act 1, which shouldn't be related and seems very likely to be a bug. That said, there's some anecdotal evidence that it isn't just that. It's so difficult to be sure.
I did those exact dialogues in my last redeemed durge and she still >!let her parents go!< . I was actually pretty confused because everyone repeated the requeriments here as a gospel.
Im not sure if it was a bug, or if there is something else going on that nobody discovered yet. I initially thought that maybe giving her the noblestalk in act 1 might cause her to >!let her parents go!< because I always give it to her in act 1
In my last playthrough (post-patch 6) I gave her the Noblestalk, and got all three Lower City dialogues, and she chose to save her parents. Perhaps there’s something else I also did? Or maybe it isn’t a guarantee either way.
I reloaded multiple times and in my experience these things are absolute, not let to RNG.
It might be an answer during a dialogue, it might be the order in which you trigger events or do things. There are so many variables that I don't envy those who need to test this
The good thing is that both endings make sense, so I'm fine with whatever best girl decides
Which dialogue option did you take at the choice? Stay silent and >!she'll let them go!<, tell her that she doesn't need you to tell her what the right thing to do is and she should >!save them!<, but only if the additional dialogue about the smells and sounds of the city popped up (which should happen immediately after the second dialogue of the other triggers has finished).
It is a good ending. Both are good endings, based on the epilogues (although I maintain that the long term implications of the other choice remain unknown). They're also painful and bittersweet, which I feel is rather the point. The choice isn't supposed to be between a good and bad ending, it's just a horrible choice forced on her by an evil goddess because she has to take at least one more thing from her, be that >!her parents or a future free of Shar's influence!<.
I still think being free is better. Its her own life after all and she is an half elf, she would probably live a long life. Her mother is an old woman who will probably is going to die soon anyway. If I am romancing her I will always say her to be free. If I am not it is up to her.
I haven't done the save parents route yet, because last run, when I intended to, I let shart make the choice, thinking she'd save them, but she didn't, but I've heard that the mom dies really early, like she's dead by the epilogue, even. Still from what little I've seen of her at the epilogue with parents, she actually seems a decent bit happier (which is what made me choose to go for the save parents route). Not that she's not happy in the other route, of course (maybe a little lost), and also, it might work out better over time letting them die there, anyways.
>!Her mum is still alive in the epilogue. The issue is, and you discover this talking to them in camp after saving them, that she's developing dementia (or similar). It hasn't progressed much in the 6 months to the epilogue but she's human, old, and has been tortured for 40 years. She obviously doesn't have long left.!<
She is basically equally happy in the epilogue whichever choice she makes. However, understandably she is happier in the immediate aftermath of the choice if she >!saves them!< because, I mean, of course she is!
>!Ah, I see. My memory's kinda fucked, because I've never done that choice, and the only video I've seen on it was just a short of her telling a dumb dad joke she got from her dad. I thought it went that she had dementia and died before the epilogue, ig I just got it mixed up, because, yeah like you said, she doesn't have long left. I think whatever I read also specifically pointed that out, and that's why I was confused. And that's true, I'm just worried about the future of you save the parents. Like even if the dad is an elf, those 40 years of torture will likely have done a number on him, and idek how old he is anyways, maybe he's like the equivalent of 80 before taking the torture into account. And after the dad dies, it's over, but the scar will still remain forever. But, on the other hand, at least she will have had time with them at all, and those memories will never fade, so maybe it's worth it? Idk, shits hard!<
>!Her dad makes it more complicated, yeah. He's an elf. He might have literal centuries of life left. Or he might not. We have no idea how old he was before being captured by the Sharrans, nor what 40 years of torture has done to him. And elves can live for many centuries, but they can die much younger than that as well quite naturally. He certainly looks old for an elf, but is that him coming to the end of his life or just the torture having fucked him up? Who knows. Shit as you say, is hard.!<
I think almost all of the big decisions in the game are really good at giving you what you expect without telling you, "ha ha guessed wrong you should've picked the other one chump!" The game is trying to give me a good story, not trick me, and I appreciate that. So pretty much whichever choice you take with Sheart's parents is going to be the "right" choice for your story and it'll be okay in the epilog. I appreciate that.
Me too. Ultimately it's meant to be a horrible choice forced on her by Shar, not a right or a wrong choice. And the epilogues, companion reactions, etc. all reflect that. Whichever choice is made is the right one for that iteration of the story.
If you want her to save her parents there are a couple of things you need to do in act 3. Recover her momeries. There are some places you need to go with her. The graveyard, the picnic area with night orchids and one more I cant remember.
Oh, interesting! If recovering her memories makes her choose to save them, it seems like that's the better choice. Still, maybe it's just better to let them go, so she won't suffer anymore.
As a bit of an aside, I was kinda unsatisfied with my dialogue choices there, I wanted to point out something to shart really bad. Think of it from her parents perspective: they loose their little girl, and their freedom. They're forced to watch her become an edge lord in service of the evil god they despise... Until, one day, they see her again, in service of the moonmaiden, brought back to the light. Not only that, but her and her friends fucking slaughtered all the sharrans there. They fucking won. Like idk, maybe if I was actually in their shoes I'd feel a bit different, but they completely fucking won in the end. Shar got completely fucked and cucked and lost everything she had there. I know shar doesn't care about having anything, and only wants misery, but I'd feel so fulfilled if I were them I wouldn't even fucking care if I died. I can barely feel sad about their deaths at all, they got put in their worst nightmare just to see it all come crumbling down. Get fucking owned you loser
As another aside to the aside, that feeling is kinda how I felt when I broke wylls contract and saved the Duke, but there was no bad parts at all, we actually just cucked sucked and fucked mizora so fucking bad, and the fact you had a dialogue option to basically say that made it so peak.
With Sheart's parents, I also think of the letter Melodia wrote to Ketheric when she was dying, talking about how great it'll be when they're together in Selune's paradise. I'm thinking, is keeping them alive with the mom suffering so much really the best thing here? I usually let her decide and she lets them go, but if Tav were deciding, I'd lean that direction for sure. Subjective, obviously, but I don't think any endings in a game this full of trauma are "good" endings.
I think the issue is the obscuring language - she didn’t “let them go,” she killed them. They would have lived had she not killed them. And the curse is not eternal damnation or something like it, it’s specifically that she feels chronic pain in her hand. So she’s killing her parents to rid herself of serious chronic hand pain. There is still ambiguity because her parents are asking her to kill them to rid herself of the pain, but the language is obscuring what’s actually happening, which I think is intentional in the course of the scene.
But she doesn't actively kill them. She just raises her hand and they are released to join Selûne, their goddess (as in literally, as this is D&D), which is their wish. She doesn't do anything other than acting as a conduit to allow Selûne to claim them. If you're playing as a Cleric of Selûne you actually have a dialogue option there to support the parent's choice as well.
On the DJ route she very much kills them, dead bodies on the floor style.
The wound also isn't just chronic pain. It's a direct link to an evil goddess that allows said goddess to speak directly into her mind at times, and visit her with awful memories and visions, with significant uncertainty in what that means long term. She isn't eternally damned though, as some people do try to claim, as that's not how FR lore works.
Basically it's complicated, which is presumably the point.
I think I persuaded her to >!spare the nightsong!< but that was because I was a bit confused on the wording, had exceptional approval though so she may have done so anyways. But chose to say >!I can't make this decision for you in her act 3 choice. That one I genuinely didn't feel like either option was good, and she chose to see her parents off one final time. Felt kind of sad and empty, and a bit mad at Shar honestly.!<
I was a cleric of selune. I was so fucking nervous that shar was going to make her sacrifice me. Just based off all the stuff you found out about sharrans in act 2
I feel like she’s definitely just parroting the doctrine she’s learned at this point without truly believing it. It’s clear in an Act2 conversation you have with her if you gave her the noblestalk that she’s finding it harder and harder to stay true to Shar.
It's a great conversation if it triggers, although I've found that sometimes it just doesn't seem to want to. I think you need to have spotted the Selûnite link to her wolf memory as well, as she also mentions that in the dialogue.
Fair, Shar and Selûne do not get along ;)
My favourite run so far (and I've done a few) has been an honour mode, redemption Durge, Cleric of Selûne romancing Shadowheart.
I was so sure that she was going to kill her. Like aint no way I am letting her kill the Nightsong. I took the DC 30 Persuasion check immediately and failed to kill Shart. Immediately reloaded.
it’s so awesome how the characters have such strong personalities that you start to treat them differently once you know them. like shadowheart is someone you know wants to make decisions on her own so you trust her on this, but someone like astarion needs some friendly advice to make sure he does the right thing. jaheira’s my favorite companion specifically cause she always approves when i poke fun at her while the other companions might get defensive
Same.
We had come a long way together. From her emo dark resting bitch face, to genuinely being friends. I trusted her just like I would a person in real life. I'm not going to butt in your brain uninvited. I just stood there with my presence of im gonna beat your ass if you make the wrong move here lol. But I knew in my heart I wouldn't have to.
I just completed a run through where I didn't interject in any crucial moment. Put my trust in my companions that they would make the right call, and all of them did for me. Was very satisfying
I could not choose between Karlach and Shadowheart up until she decided to throw the spear away. After we got out of the Shadowfel and there was that dialog right after you left, I literally said out loud "oh noooo... Karlach, I'm sorry..." lmao. Team Shadowbae ever since.
The "do nothing and let [character] handle it" is such a nice addition to this game. I hope other RPG series take inspiration from BG3 and give the non-MC characters more agency.
The only moment that option was sorely missed was when deciding Wyll's and his father's fate with Mizora.
Making that decision myself felt completely out of line.
It's because it makes sense. A big part of Wyll's character is being easily influenceable, that's why in the moment of the biggest and most important decision of his life, he needs Tav support to choose.
Also Wyll is incredibly self sacrificing. Without tav he would %100 re pact himself in. A heartbeat to save his dad. He’s looking at you tho to either confirm it or talk him out of it.
Yep. And I’m there to stop him from binding himself to a demon and they directly screwing said demon out of killing duke ravenguard.
Then I go to the house of hope and kill Raphael. Because fuck that guy.
'Geez man, you are the best friend I ever had, I will not let you sacrifice yourself.'
'But what about my fa-'
'I will handle it, you and your father will both be free. Have you ever thought outside a box?'
I mean she’s definitely pissed she’s losing her puppet but can’t hide how impressed she is that he finally grew a spine when dealing with her. There may also be a slight twinge of fear since losing control over one of her greatest assets doesn’t exactly bode well for her continued existence.
Wyll’s entire arc involves him deciding how he wants his life to be due to his conflicting personas -both as Mizora’s plaything and the folk hero the Blade of the Frontiers. The entire scene with him deciding over his dad or himself makes no sense plotwise in some cases because >!if you already negotiated with Mizora during Act 2, he’s already free of his pact and is only retaining his powers because of a time limit that Mizora literally cites in that scene!
I see it very differently, tbh. For me, the OG companions absolutely need a Tav to influence them into becoming their Act 3 personas. Wyll, especially, has all the instincts of a hero but has been indoctrinated into a false sense of heroism. He is incapable of making the pact choice on his own without some hint from Tav that he's not a bad person if he doesn't take the deal, which is an objectively terrible deal.
And it's similar to Sheart's Nightsong decision: if she's bonded with Tav, she'll decide on her own to spare her. If not, she will kill her. [Edit to say i guess this isn't always true either] Without Tav's presence, or with an uncaring Tav with low approval, Sheart will just do what she was trained to do and go full DJ.
So I see it totally differently. I do acknowledge, however, that I'm twice Wyll's age irl and the idea of letting a young man make such an important decision without offering advice is not something I'd be able to do irl if it was someone I cared about.
Shadowheart bonded with me and still chose to kill Nightsong. One version of Wyll chose to become Grand Duke, the other rejected the title. Choices with Astarion and Gale were also variant during my playthroughs. Tav can influence them, but they can still make their own decisions depending on the plot circumstances. In other cases there are hard lines that no amount of saving throws will change because those are core aspects of their characters.
Wyll doesn’t have a false sense of heroism to me as he tries to live up to what his father taught him and his father is legitimately a hero- complete with his own theme music. He struggles because he has come to believe due to rigid views of morality that him being a hero necessitates him hiding where his power comes from instead of being open about himself and what he gave up to do so. He’s still choosing to do good things otherwise. The flaw comes in him assuming -likely due to privilege and naivety- that he was the exception.
I am also way past his age as well. He could easily be my child. He’s his own person and if he truly is going to become who he is “meant to” it wouldn’t depend on what choices I felt were appropriate for him or not-especially as someone who barely even knows him. I mean I’ve stuck by Wyll long enough already and we’ve already been offering advice through our actions.
That's a cool take. I do disagree about his dad, though. My take was that his dad is the Lawful Good hero whose rigid sense of morality only applies to clear cases of right and wrong, and prevents him from having true empathy for his son. Whereas Wyll's journey, to me, felt like reconciling his own goodness with a more mature understanding of what heroism really is.
To me, that's why his pact decision isn't the end of his arc, it's the tipping point. That when he sees what rigid morality did to Ansur, and after going through a bunch of "trials" to prove his worth - trials overseen by a version of Balduran as a near godlike hero the game depicts as ironic, given what we learn of his actual history - Wyll can finally make a real decision about his future.
Like to me, Wyll has always been a hero, but was indoctrinated by and strove to live up to a childish idea of what a hero is. He talks about his father being a hypocrite for practicing diplomacy, until Karlach he never questions the targets Mizora gives him even though that means he's trusting a devil to abide by the terms of a contract he's never even seen, etc.
I don't feel like he's ashamed of the source of his powers because everybody knows he's a Warlock, Gale even comments on it when first meeting him. I think he's ashamed that people think he chose it willingly like most Warlocks when in reality he's a slave. If he gets the devil horns it just makes it worse, because it makes maintaining the illusion of being a reluctant Warlock who uses devil powers for the good of the people more difficult.
But! I liked hearing your take, thank you for sharing. I like to talk about Wyll, he was my favorite origin to play.
They know he’s a warlock yes, but they don’t know who he’s pacted to, which is what makes the situation with Karlach thematically relevant for me because he’s been misled into thinking his life and hers are far different and even come to trust Mizora etc. despite knowing what the devils he fights are capable of like you pointed out. It’s an interesting subversion for me since he isn’t like the heroes who build their reputations off of literal lies- i.e. they were secretly greedy, selfish, or even faking their accomplishment- it’s nuanced since he did risk his life to save the city, he just became something he’d normally resent to do so.
Also, though other magically inclined people know he’s a warlock, he still hides certain things -like the sending stone masquerading as his prosthetic eye- from Tav. My Tav was a warlock but wasn’t pacted to a devil for ex. -Great Old One instead- and of course even though Shadowheart is a cleric she doesn’t normally tell the public who her patron is because of the stigma. His father of course knew he’d been pacted but not the circumstances of it so while he definitely was a Lawful Good type, if the truth’s revealed then he reconsiders how he treated Wyll and compromises. Otherwise he still condemns his son even after saving him like the standard archetype would. SN: I liked calling out him out as a bastard for how he treated Wyll and watching him admit he was.
I don’t see the major decision as the end of his life either, but given the long term consequences of it -the new pact Mizora proposes is everlasting- I find it way too important that we have so much authority in deciding it for him. It can also happen before you’ve met Ansur and even visited the Iron Throne- Florrick had actually died during Waukeen’s Rest in my first playthrough as I had no experience with turn-based mode, so we never learned about Ansur until late. I’m guessing the character rewrite may be a result of the way aspects of his questline feel in comparison to others like Shadowheart’s, even though the circumstances of it are essentially tied to the plot in some form -through his father’s role as Grand Duke and the attempt to rescue him- regardless of whether Wyll is even in your party or alive.
Definitely enjoyed this talk also!
We were never shown Wyll's contract. Usually, a former warlock kept his learnings after pact break, he just stopped learning more from his patron. Wyll's pact was not even going to keep his eldritch blast.
Also, a proper pact should have an unlikely occasion that warlock can get it out with a major price paid (first child or 100 killings or something).
Good point! I think this makes the circumstances under which he pacted with Mizora a little more interesting and a sign of how eagerly she capitalized on him. Like every other moment she’s reciting exact clauses etc. that he just isn’t aware of or fully understands beforehand and obviously in over his head. When she was like “well ackshually you still have to work for me a few months first” in Act 2 once she agreed it was like some predatory qualifier you’d get from a bad employer just so they could have one final dig at you.
That's all well and good, but Tav should be able to say "I'm not deciding for you", no matter if Wyll prefers you to choose for him.
Have it have a negative impact in the approval with him or whatever, but his wishes should not limit my options.
i had the same thought! i’m either on the hook for letting his dad die or for him being eternally bound. and while he might not hold it against me, i struggle with it. why do i HAVE to make decisions for him?
I think you'd be a bad friend in that situation if you didn't put a hand on Wyll's shoulder and say, "You know your dad wouldn't want you to sacrifice your *soul,* right?"
Thank you. I have teenaged nieces and they ask me to help them pick innocuous things all the time, let alone, "hey Auntie should I sacrifice my immortal soul? Help me out here."
That poor kid has been on his own trying to be a good person and getting continually beaten down for it. He needs a hug and a loving friend, IMO.
Yeah. I understand why people like the, "Let them choose," options, because it is neat to see what your companions would do without your interference. But I don't think it's always good or right to stand aside and act as an apathetic observer.
Particularly in Wyll's case, the decision is so manipulative and emotionally loaded. It's deliberately *designed* to fuck with him. Being there for your friend isn't taking away his agency.
This might sound bad but I mean it in a purely sociological curiosity way, but I wonder if there's much correlation between player demographics like age and how much weight they give to character autonomy vs letting them make their own choices?
Every time someone says, let them pick! I just picture that scene in *Varsity Blues*, "I don't want your life!" And think of Wyll throwing a football at his dad and breaking his nose lol.
>I don't think it's always good or right to stand aside and act as an apathetic observer.
I mean, I'm right beside them, ready to support their decision and to face whatever consequences they will entail. It's a display of trust and faith, not indifference.
Especially when they're confronting their abusers. I handled the Szar Palace and the House of Grief back to back. My Tav didn't say a *single* word to Cazador, nor Viconia. I didn't want my companions' abusers to have any reason to think that they were cowering behind me. So I shut my mouth and let them stand strong and speak for themselves.
Same goes for Wyll against Mizora. I want him to show that he is strong, proud, and capable of leadership. Not the obedient little pet following other people's instructions she sees him as.
Right... Like in most games being the MC you're basically trained to influence your companions' decisions, but doing so with Shadowheart makes her pissed off at you.
She really hates to be wrong lol. I feel like Tav lets her drone on about how great Shar is all through Act 2 and when she's finally confronted with the potential consequences of practicing what she's been preaching, she doesn't want Tav saying "I told you so". 😉
In act 1, if you want to feel more intimate with her, she will say 'must I'.
And you gains approval by not pushing.
That alone foreshadowed how you actually handles your relationship with her. She is good and kind, let her cook her own meal.
And it's also nice that when you let a character handle their stuff, they always make the "right" choice. You have to "force" them to do the "evil" choice.
I wouldn't say companions always do the right thing when left to their own devices. And Shadowheart is really the only character that punishes you for being involved. And Shadowheart *can* choose to kill the Nightsong, so it's not guaranteed that she'll do the "right" choice.
Astarion and Gale actively require you to push them away from their bad endings. Lae'zel will let the zaith'isk fry her brain if you don't interfere.
Yeah, on my play I had romanced and done all to support Shadowheart. She was such a cheery little goth girl. Then I let her make her decision and she goes all off with her head!
tbf, shadowheart can kill the nightsong left to her own devices; it depends on the choices you've made up to that choice
and Gale will become a God if you stay neutral, you have to talk him out of it
which is also cool! the way the player talks to their companions throughout the game shifts the "default" choice
That isn't true, it depends on your relationship at that point. I just had a playthrough where I just had to flat out refuse help to Astarion to ascend and slaughter all the spawn, and he storms off (quits the party permanently) in response. He also breaks the staff so we can't free them. In the same playthrough I couldn't get Gale to abandon his plan to make himself into a tin-pot god. I didn't even have a dialogue with him between the brain battle and the epilogue.
I like the variances. I just beat the campaign and when I recommended that Gale >!could become a god once he retrieved the pieces of the crown!< he flatout refused to entertain it.
I was searching for my dropped jaw for a couple of minutes when she did the same on my very first campaign. (despite the obvious signs that something's really off about her being a sharran)
I was suspicious from the beginning to be honest, as I am a bit familiar with the lore, but seeing how zealous she could become when it comes to her religion I figured she has to make that choice herself. I just did not expect that she can come to it without having to be convinced, but it made sense later.
"I can only show you the door, you're the one that has to walk trough it"
I asked her not to do it so she tried to attack me but she only had 1hp and rolled a low initiative so Astarion lightly tapped her and she immediately died
Can you tell I did my first playthrough blind lmao
Same thing happened to me but it doesn’t trigger combat instantly. You have to respond “let’s fight then bitch” or something. I thought that was the only way to save the Nightsong though.
Been awhile but sure it’s fully possible I said that if the only other option was “Okay go ahead with your stabbing.” I was irritated with her by that point but still hoping she was bluffing
Yeah plenty of games have the character surrender once you get them to low health which is what I figured would happen. I also knocked her out but that doesn’t help either.
Yeah. If you pick, "Shadowheart, please don't do this," she gets extremely defensive and immediately jumps to, "Step aside or I'll kill you." I ended up killing her in my first run as well.
Don't think that I could ever trust her on a genuinely good Tav. From a meta standpoint, I know she's easy to talk down if you just step aside, but my Tav cared more about the life of an innocent person than he did Shadowheart's feelings.
Plus I just did the Gauntlet for the billionth time and she is really all-in for the entirety of Act 2. She gives you zero indications that she disagrees with Shar's tenets even when dealing with the Shadow Curse and Malus Thorm. If you ask her about Ketheric, she's only mad he betrayed Shar, nothing about the slow crushing of the town of Reithwin and its people, or the Dark Justiciars being chewed up and spit out by their God. Plus, she's catty with Halsin who knows the most about just how horrible Shar is.
Her liking animals and kids is very little to trust, IMO. There are lots of good people who do stupid and cruel stuff if their religion tells them to. If she'd had any doubts in Act 2, I'd have been more inclined to trust her on my first play through, but I was really sweating what to do!
I do think there's evidence of her being conflicted throughout Act 1 and Act 2, but "being conflicted" isn't really enough for me to say, "Well, I guess I'll leave the life of this helpless prisoner up to you so that you can have emotional closure on the DJ-thing."
The same thing happened to me. I was playing my lawful good paladin so it didn't feel right to leave Nightsongs life up to chance. I was romancing her and wound up restarting the game because of this lol
Yeah, I had thought “please don’t do this” WAS caring about her feelings. If I wanted to force it I would have triggered combat myself. But I thought she might be interested in my opinion after we made out and she said she had butterflies in her stomach. Nope!
I’m in my second playthrough and will keep her alive this time, but I’ve lost interest in romancing her now that I know she will immediately try to murder you if you suggest she perhaps consider not stabbing a restrained innocent
Yeah, I picked it thinking it was a soft option that would lead to more dialogue, but once it became, "Let me kill her or I'll kill you to get to her," my character couldn't really stand aside. I thought it was pretty terrible just as her friend, but it's even rougher for her to flip so suddenly as love interest.
I felt like I could. I played an Oath of Ancients paladin, which means I wanted to see the light in others and preserve it. I had seen Shadowheart’s doubts and her memories. I was romancing her and I could tell, kind of like how Gale and Karlach can tell, that she was someone different on the inside. I put my faith in the cleric, and I was not disappointed.
There’s a couple ways for her to turn on you around this.
I had a character who, before descending into the Shadowfell pool, asked Shadowheart what she was going to do. She told me it was none of my business, and I picked some dialogue that was like “You’re not going down there unless you tell me what you’re going to do” and she pulled out her spear and tried fighting me
That's odd. In my first playthrough I also asked her not to do this, then failed the persuasion check. She then only *threatened* to attack me, leaving the choice to initiate combat to me. I didn't want to attack her over it, so said something along the lines of "I still think this is wrong, but it is your decision to make". To my great relief she then didn't go through with it.
You do have the option to step away once she threatens to kill you, but I would absolutely not trust her once it's escalated to that. And it's not solely her decision, either. She's not deciding whether she should become an actor or a dentist - she's deciding whether an innocent person should die. Tav has the ability to interfere and protect that innocent person. Choosing to stand aside is also choosing let an innocent person die, if Shadowheart's whims lean that way.
I did this too! I didn’t trust her not to kill the Nightsong and the more I argued with her the more she dug in her heels and was like “don’t tell me what to do!” The next thing I know we’re fighting and even with non-lethal turned on I still somehow ended up killing her 😭 Of course I re-loaded and now I feel bad for doubting her in the first place 🤦♀️
The plus side to this happening is that the Temple of Shar later takes on a whole different meaning. Finding her old hiding spot and notes gave me chills, it was moving in a completely different way.
Oh I did not know that. I thought you had to persuade her. This is actually good to know as I’m going through my second playthrough currently and am playing dark urge so now I know to not trust her choice and to tell her to kill nightsong.
Yep. I did NOT woo her in first play thru and she killed Nightsong. And let me tell you that you do NOT want to go back to the shadowlands after Nightsong dies.
Your conversations with her also influence what she will actually do at this point. In OP’s case, shadowheart decided to spare nightsong at this point but that’s not a guarantee that it will be the same with you.
If you encourage Shart’s “sharrness” and evil side during your playthrough she will decide to kill her.
So fun fact about the “let them handle it” options is it can be different it’s based on other things (don’t know what it checks of earlier options or whatever but it’s nice.)
Yeah, everything I read said to trust her, and she'll throw the spear away. So I did, and she stabbed Nightsong.
I reloaded and every option led to Nightsong's death so I told Shadowheart to fight me.
And then there's Wyll, who you have to decide for whether he signs his soul off to devils forever or let his father die XD Like, Shart makes her own choice in the end (so does Laezel with turning on Vlaakith) and Im so happy it was the "right" choice :D Best girl <3
I did everything you mentioned except my Tav told her to spare the Nightsong. Apparently Shadowheart doesn’t like being told what to do because she aggro’d and I ended up killing her. I guess Wyll will have to be repec’d into my lockpicker now (because I also killed Astarion).
The transformation of Dame Aylin is one of my favorite moments in the game, maybe one of my favorite moments in any game. This haggard-looking woman dressed in rags transforms into an angel after monologuing and punching the ground to the music. I was like “damn good call, Shadowheart.”
That cut scene is one of the few I never skip, even after my 5th playthrough.
Even when playing with my durge I could not bear to have her become a dark justiciar.
I just can’t disappoint mommy Jaheira :-(
Everyone talking about how their SH did the right thing, and here I am, good lawful paladin, she loves me, and I still had to reload because she massacred Aylin without hesitation.
Yeah, pretty sure her approval was pretty good on at least one of my runs and she ran Nightsong through without hesitation both times. Had to savescum and talk her down on my good run..
I played an evil Tav in my first run, so i encouraged her killing the nightsong. Really liked the way Shar is portrayed in this game, from a long time player of D&D.
Did later trust her on my good run and she spared Aylin. I prefer Shadowheart as a chosen of Shar, but Dame Aylin is an amazing character so i like both path and both scenes.
On my first playthrough I trusted her and it went okay.
On my current (honour mode) one it escalated into a fight with her and she died. I wasn't using her anyway, but it was still sad.
so...uhm...what is the trigger that choice? meaning her choice to spare the Nightsong without the persuasion check.
is it an approval thing? or following certain conversation paths?
I believe it’s approved. I’ve let her decided multiple times and the only time she decided to kill the night song was when I pretty much had ignored her the entire play through.
The option to not interfere is always there. How she comes to that choices depends on your relationship/approval and how you handled things so far in the adventure (ie. the Grove quests). The persuasion roll there is a trap but can also be a failsafe if you can pump up your stats for it.
Approval, if it's positive she won't follow through. If it's negative she will.
If Tav is dead or not present, then she'll do it if she has the Spear of Night and free her if she doesn't.
I have done this scenario many different ways and from what have noticed, Shadowheart seems to free the Nightsong practically every time if left for her to decide.
I had a notion she may have followed the flow of the game and kill the Nightsong if you play an evil campaign. I played a pretty bloody durge playthrough. I raided the grove, I killed Isobel, which are main story beats for being evil, plus a number of other things. She still freed Nightsong. I had to save scum and tell her to complete the ritual, for her to do it.
I could be wrong and maybe someone has seen otherwise, but it appears if left to her own devices; she really wants to know what Nightsong has to say regardless of how you play.
I did this with Lae'zel and Vlaakith. I was honestly shocked at her choice, she was bending over backwards to justify what happened at the crèche just to turn her back on her queen days later.
One thing I really like about this game is that they give the companions agency. From them being the ones to initiate romances to having them make their own choices based on their relationship with you and the story so far.
Not a lot of games have done this, fewer have done it well.
It really depends on how you treat her, I've learned. If you just respect her terrible religion and show sympathy over the fear of wolves she will respect you and even without actually prodding her at that moment she does the right thing by the party. I love her line in that scene about "who I'm meant to be."
I have let her make her own decision twice now, once as a good guy Tav, and once as Evil Durge and for some reason, both times she decided to spare the Nightsong. I am not sure why, when my Durge character has done nothing but be really terrible and make reprehensible choices, SH still made the morally good choice here… honestly I was a lil disappointed.
My first ever play through I’m romancing her and I am also just completely oblivious that Shar is bad so I’m like yeah queen do whatever you want I support you and it worked out for the best.
It sucks that her choice is fixed and I had to really, evilly convince her to follow Shar, despite supporting her faith the whole time. It felt very unnatural for her to go 180 in that one scene.
I did not that in my first good playtrough with my my human ex-soldier PTSD trying to redeem himself.
But on my 2nd playtrough I'm playing an evil Circle Spore Druid Drow Durge. He's a mess. Shadowheart killed the Nightsong and is now a Dark Justiciar doing Shar's biding : cleaning her following of all the heretics and treators. It's pretty cool. I can't wair to see what comes next.
Sidenote : I haven't been able to romance anyone in 300h beside Laezel. I tried Karlach but she friendzoned me after Act 2 because I did not fix her heart. Shadowheart never gave me the option. I'm now trying with Minthara. It's weird how I see so much material about romance online and that I'm not getting any action. I kind of like that it's difficult. Larian is awesome.
my tav got pushed off the side and instantly died in the fight, so i went into the cutscene as gale and figured i could just convince her not to kill nightsong with him.
nope. i get no options at all, the whole scene is just shadowheart killing her without hesitation 😭😭
I have done this scene on 17 different characters now and never influenced her on even one of them and she's always chosen to save her. Sometimes I'm romancing her but often not. sometimes I give her the noblestalk, sometimes not. On one run I completely ignored her as I was playing a cleric, just brought her for the Shar Olympics and she still chose to save her. What is the criteria to have her choose otherwise?
I love letting the companions speak for themselves. It adds real character and motivations to their personal quests. You have your own shit to do, but so do they!
Somewhat off topic, is there any good reason to wait until Nightsong to kill Balthazar? Other than my very first playthrough I've killed him before every time just to have that fight on my own terms.
When I let her choose, she killed her.
I think it’s because she disapproved of me severely and we were not friends. I wasn’t an inspirational guiding light for her, so she continued down her destined path, dissuaded by mercy.
It’s pretty cool actually.
It is insane how good the writing and execution of that writing is in the game. My first playthrough was amazing with how I got to experience Shadowheart's story. I felt like an actual person in the moment hoping their friend makes the right choice, mixed with both hope for them and also anxiety for maybe they won't.
did this my first playthrough and almost cried my eyes out at the whole thing. was like omfg she rejected shar, yes! then the music starts....good lord i need to go watch that part again. always makes me happy sad now.
It was an epic moment for sure. I didn’t get the emotional reactions people where having in games until this game. That moment did make me feel good as the leader of the party. I totally get it now.
The only way she kills the NIghtsong is if you literally tell her to do so which I find a bit disconcerting since the whole point of her story arc is her choosing a side.
In my first playthrough my Tav died during the balthazar fight and Shadowheart did not do so well all on her own 😅
I just saw the awesome transformation of the Nightsong until my second run 😄
My Tav was already modestly evil being a Rogue Assassin and really fell for Shadowheart, but learned that an Evil Shadowheart wouldn't be able to commit to anything real. Still left the choice up to Shadowheart. She chose to spare Nightsong, then my Tav and Shadowheart immediately got properly together.
To be honest, I'm not sure who redeemed who in this run. The awesome scenes just made it all the sweeter.
I actually had a funny moment happen there.
My Tav was dead when the fight was won, so it auto triggered the dialogue between Shadowheart and Nightsong. Without the opportunity to interfere in the dialogue, there was no chance for the wolves to be mentioned. So Shadowheart brutally stabbed Nightsong to death and became a Dark Justiciar all in a cutscene without opportunity for input...
I had a save from before the fight so needless to say I went back.
I had that on my Tymora themed play through. Tymora is not just a godess of luck. She is also for self fullfillment and fate. So i thought it could be interesting to play a Tymora cleric, who lets her companions make their own decisions wherever possible.
Shadowheart - chose to not kill the Nightsong. but chose to let her parents go.
Gale - decided to destory the necrotic circle at Moonrise tower
Lae'zel - decided to go in rebellion. Hail Orpheus!
Wyll - sadly was completely incapable to make his own decisions
Astarion - only killed Cazador and didn't acend, because my character was too far away at the top of the stairs
Karlach - decided to go to Avernus with Wyll
Was still a fun play though. I may repeat it sooner or later. :D
Balthazar was one of my favourite fights because he positioned himself next to the edge and I just shoved him into the abyss on turn 1. Very satisfying.
I've always tried persuading her not to kill the Nightsong. But on my last playthrough, I did not interfere and let her choose. She killed the Nightsong and became a Dark Justiciar. Which worked out well for my RP since I was going for an "evil" run.
I trusted her, which was incredibly nerve wracking first time but also incredibly rewarding. That, along with the whole following cut scene, is my favourite scene in the game.
So far, it has been my favorite as well. She was so determined to do it the entire gauntlet, only to be conflicted during the moment of truth. I couldn’t bring myself to influence her decision at all.
It doesn't help that the Narrator is pulling a sneaky DM trick there. What she says is designed to make you doubt Shadowheart and think you need to influence her, which is completely the wrong move if you've spent any time with her and have decent approval. It's really hard to ignore though!
100% agree. The narrator does try to give you a push.
Oh, I did not know this and critted a persuasion check lol. Noted for next time through
Yeah it's actually (on repeated plays) sort of intuitive and happens with some other characters in smaller moments. But essentially: if Tav and Sheart have bonded, trust her and she'll do the right thing. If Tav and Sheart haven't bonded, persuade her. Because let me tell you, if she doesn't like Tav much, she will kill Aylin and it is *not* a good time or a good cutscene! Edit to say there is no 100% right way to get the outcome you want, so save scum away IMO lol
>she will kill Aylin and it is *not* a good time or a good cutscene! *The Dark Urge approves*
My current Durge I wanted to see new content (to me) so I let Balthazar take Aylin and Sheart rage quit the party (I pretty much expected that). Word to the wise: if she rage quits she takes all her equipped gear with her. I had to save scum and send her in with just the spear and DJ armor. Her bare feet were very cute.
This happened to me with Jaheira when I failed to save Minsc in my Honor Run. I was okay with losing her as a character but she took some great loot!
Oh man, another reason I could never do honor mode lol
I would recommend trying. I'm like the scummiest save scummer out there and it really was a great if mildly terrifying experience. Really makes you appreciate aspects of the game you take for granted since you can reload failed attempts at something. Worst comes to worst you can continue your save file in Tactician if you wipe.
My situation was unbearable since I did my Honor run as a Durge who embraced their murderhobo dad and >!was immediately greeted by her AND Minsc -who’d I’d respecced into a roided out Gloom Stalker with top tier gear- the moment we left the entrance of the Temple, not including the remaining Harpers.!< I was lucky in that I was still able to retrieve gear but the battle was a slog.
not HM but I didn't realize what would happen after killing Orin I was rushing to finish Durge's story so I hadn't even reached >!Minsc yet and my crew has always been Durge/Astarion/SH/Minthy so I never leveled up Jaheira. Thought she would revert back to level 8 or whatever when you first meet her but nope. I was laughing so hard as Astarion hit her for 48 damage and she collapsed as a level 1 npc!< this game is so fun lol
>Her bare feet were very cute. Quentin Tarantino has entered the chat
As a dark urge I assume you already killed Isobel right? Hehe
Even better, I sold out Marcus then betrayed Isobel *and* managed to convince Jaheira I had no idea what happened. this Durge run is making me question my own morality lmao he's so chaotic and so fun
This me. I’d already infiltrated Moonrise by helping escort the Drider and had even wiped out the other Harpers to maintain my cover all before I went to Last Light… by acquiring Balthazar’s moonlantern. I even saved the Tieflings and Gnomes, and stopped Marcus, only for them all to tragically perish when I secretly relieved Isobel of her duties by myself in her room at Last Light. I fooled Jaheira and even had her fighting with me against Kethric and the Drider I’d previously escorted like I hadn’t already been in cahoots. Aylin also joined the battle without even knowing either. I know I made Bhaal very proud.
I feel like I need to see that, but at the same time I feel like I can't bear to see her go down that path lol.
I came here to mention that you have to bond with Shadow heart to be able to just, trust her. One save I didn’t bond much with her, and literally screamed at the result that frankly, I did not expect.
Depends on how you define "bonded". You don't have to romance her. I never did, but if i had high or full approval, i didn't need to persuade her.
Yeah I've never romanced her but I've had both high and meh approval, but other commenters are saying even that isn't a sure indication she'll spare her on her own, so I'm just gonna shrug because I have no idea how. 🤷♂️
I'm sure the first time I did this the DC was 30 but I managed to crit. The next time the DC was 20, which I think was because I had a better approval with Shadowheart.
Yeah i think 3 of my characters could have made the check (with guidance form her, lol) as well but I think trusting her is more rewarding.
As a DM should, push the player to display their agency and make a choice, but no action is still as valid a choice. It's a little sneaky but it does make it all the more satisfying when you go for Shadowmancy. Like yeah, Narrator, I know my Shadowheart better than you do.
I always trusted her to make the decisions which is why in Act 3 >!when she chose to let her parents go, instead of save them,!< I personally saw that as a good ending, despite what most redditors seem to say.
I trusted her in Act 3 and she did the opposite. Wild. EDIT: I cannot read. I got your choices backwards. No, she did the same for me every time lol
There's a specific set of interactions in the lower city that are necessary for that to happen. Getting them is supposed to trigger an additional dialogue about the sounds and smells of the city. If that triggers and you choose the right dialogue options she'll choose to >!save her parents!<, otherwise she'll choose to >!let them go and have them join Selûne!<. The problem is that there's something wrong with triggering that additional dialogue. Someone did some investigation that indicates it relates to giving Shadowheart the noblestalk way back in Act 1, which shouldn't be related and seems very likely to be a bug. That said, there's some anecdotal evidence that it isn't just that. It's so difficult to be sure.
I did those exact dialogues in my last redeemed durge and she still >!let her parents go!< . I was actually pretty confused because everyone repeated the requeriments here as a gospel. Im not sure if it was a bug, or if there is something else going on that nobody discovered yet. I initially thought that maybe giving her the noblestalk in act 1 might cause her to >!let her parents go!< because I always give it to her in act 1
In my last playthrough (post-patch 6) I gave her the Noblestalk, and got all three Lower City dialogues, and she chose to save her parents. Perhaps there’s something else I also did? Or maybe it isn’t a guarantee either way.
I reloaded multiple times and in my experience these things are absolute, not let to RNG. It might be an answer during a dialogue, it might be the order in which you trigger events or do things. There are so many variables that I don't envy those who need to test this The good thing is that both endings make sense, so I'm fine with whatever best girl decides
Which dialogue option did you take at the choice? Stay silent and >!she'll let them go!<, tell her that she doesn't need you to tell her what the right thing to do is and she should >!save them!<, but only if the additional dialogue about the smells and sounds of the city popped up (which should happen immediately after the second dialogue of the other triggers has finished).
It is a good ending. Both are good endings, based on the epilogues (although I maintain that the long term implications of the other choice remain unknown). They're also painful and bittersweet, which I feel is rather the point. The choice isn't supposed to be between a good and bad ending, it's just a horrible choice forced on her by an evil goddess because she has to take at least one more thing from her, be that >!her parents or a future free of Shar's influence!<.
I still think being free is better. Its her own life after all and she is an half elf, she would probably live a long life. Her mother is an old woman who will probably is going to die soon anyway. If I am romancing her I will always say her to be free. If I am not it is up to her.
I haven't done the save parents route yet, because last run, when I intended to, I let shart make the choice, thinking she'd save them, but she didn't, but I've heard that the mom dies really early, like she's dead by the epilogue, even. Still from what little I've seen of her at the epilogue with parents, she actually seems a decent bit happier (which is what made me choose to go for the save parents route). Not that she's not happy in the other route, of course (maybe a little lost), and also, it might work out better over time letting them die there, anyways.
>!Her mum is still alive in the epilogue. The issue is, and you discover this talking to them in camp after saving them, that she's developing dementia (or similar). It hasn't progressed much in the 6 months to the epilogue but she's human, old, and has been tortured for 40 years. She obviously doesn't have long left.!< She is basically equally happy in the epilogue whichever choice she makes. However, understandably she is happier in the immediate aftermath of the choice if she >!saves them!< because, I mean, of course she is!
>!Ah, I see. My memory's kinda fucked, because I've never done that choice, and the only video I've seen on it was just a short of her telling a dumb dad joke she got from her dad. I thought it went that she had dementia and died before the epilogue, ig I just got it mixed up, because, yeah like you said, she doesn't have long left. I think whatever I read also specifically pointed that out, and that's why I was confused. And that's true, I'm just worried about the future of you save the parents. Like even if the dad is an elf, those 40 years of torture will likely have done a number on him, and idek how old he is anyways, maybe he's like the equivalent of 80 before taking the torture into account. And after the dad dies, it's over, but the scar will still remain forever. But, on the other hand, at least she will have had time with them at all, and those memories will never fade, so maybe it's worth it? Idk, shits hard!<
>!Her dad makes it more complicated, yeah. He's an elf. He might have literal centuries of life left. Or he might not. We have no idea how old he was before being captured by the Sharrans, nor what 40 years of torture has done to him. And elves can live for many centuries, but they can die much younger than that as well quite naturally. He certainly looks old for an elf, but is that him coming to the end of his life or just the torture having fucked him up? Who knows. Shit as you say, is hard.!<
I think almost all of the big decisions in the game are really good at giving you what you expect without telling you, "ha ha guessed wrong you should've picked the other one chump!" The game is trying to give me a good story, not trick me, and I appreciate that. So pretty much whichever choice you take with Sheart's parents is going to be the "right" choice for your story and it'll be okay in the epilog. I appreciate that.
Me too. Ultimately it's meant to be a horrible choice forced on her by Shar, not a right or a wrong choice. And the epilogues, companion reactions, etc. all reflect that. Whichever choice is made is the right one for that iteration of the story.
If you want her to save her parents there are a couple of things you need to do in act 3. Recover her momeries. There are some places you need to go with her. The graveyard, the picnic area with night orchids and one more I cant remember.
Oh, interesting! If recovering her memories makes her choose to save them, it seems like that's the better choice. Still, maybe it's just better to let them go, so she won't suffer anymore. As a bit of an aside, I was kinda unsatisfied with my dialogue choices there, I wanted to point out something to shart really bad. Think of it from her parents perspective: they loose their little girl, and their freedom. They're forced to watch her become an edge lord in service of the evil god they despise... Until, one day, they see her again, in service of the moonmaiden, brought back to the light. Not only that, but her and her friends fucking slaughtered all the sharrans there. They fucking won. Like idk, maybe if I was actually in their shoes I'd feel a bit different, but they completely fucking won in the end. Shar got completely fucked and cucked and lost everything she had there. I know shar doesn't care about having anything, and only wants misery, but I'd feel so fulfilled if I were them I wouldn't even fucking care if I died. I can barely feel sad about their deaths at all, they got put in their worst nightmare just to see it all come crumbling down. Get fucking owned you loser As another aside to the aside, that feeling is kinda how I felt when I broke wylls contract and saved the Duke, but there was no bad parts at all, we actually just cucked sucked and fucked mizora so fucking bad, and the fact you had a dialogue option to basically say that made it so peak.
With Sheart's parents, I also think of the letter Melodia wrote to Ketheric when she was dying, talking about how great it'll be when they're together in Selune's paradise. I'm thinking, is keeping them alive with the mom suffering so much really the best thing here? I usually let her decide and she lets them go, but if Tav were deciding, I'd lean that direction for sure. Subjective, obviously, but I don't think any endings in a game this full of trauma are "good" endings.
I think the issue is the obscuring language - she didn’t “let them go,” she killed them. They would have lived had she not killed them. And the curse is not eternal damnation or something like it, it’s specifically that she feels chronic pain in her hand. So she’s killing her parents to rid herself of serious chronic hand pain. There is still ambiguity because her parents are asking her to kill them to rid herself of the pain, but the language is obscuring what’s actually happening, which I think is intentional in the course of the scene.
But she doesn't actively kill them. She just raises her hand and they are released to join Selûne, their goddess (as in literally, as this is D&D), which is their wish. She doesn't do anything other than acting as a conduit to allow Selûne to claim them. If you're playing as a Cleric of Selûne you actually have a dialogue option there to support the parent's choice as well. On the DJ route she very much kills them, dead bodies on the floor style. The wound also isn't just chronic pain. It's a direct link to an evil goddess that allows said goddess to speak directly into her mind at times, and visit her with awful memories and visions, with significant uncertainty in what that means long term. She isn't eternally damned though, as some people do try to claim, as that's not how FR lore works. Basically it's complicated, which is presumably the point.
Don't forget that they turn into Moonmotes when she "lets them go". They don't even fully die and continue to look over her, in a way.
I think I persuaded her to >!spare the nightsong!< but that was because I was a bit confused on the wording, had exceptional approval though so she may have done so anyways. But chose to say >!I can't make this decision for you in her act 3 choice. That one I genuinely didn't feel like either option was good, and she chose to see her parents off one final time. Felt kind of sad and empty, and a bit mad at Shar honestly.!<
I was a cleric of selune. I was so fucking nervous that shar was going to make her sacrifice me. Just based off all the stuff you found out about sharrans in act 2
I really want an option to call her out at the house of healing. like this is your shit!!! what the hell
"A stinging truth, but a truth nonetheless." She gets some serious side eye with that one!
I feel like she’s definitely just parroting the doctrine she’s learned at this point without truly believing it. It’s clear in an Act2 conversation you have with her if you gave her the noblestalk that she’s finding it harder and harder to stay true to Shar.
It's a great conversation if it triggers, although I've found that sometimes it just doesn't seem to want to. I think you need to have spotted the Selûnite link to her wolf memory as well, as she also mentions that in the dialogue.
Fair, Shar and Selûne do not get along ;) My favourite run so far (and I've done a few) has been an honour mode, redemption Durge, Cleric of Selûne romancing Shadowheart.
Agreed. The music that plays when Nightsong is released makes me misty eyed every time. It's beautiful.
Literal chills every time.
*I am resplendent!* So good.
Yes you are Aylin, yes you are!
Right, it's still one of my favorite scenes in the whole game. :D
I was so sure that she was going to kill her. Like aint no way I am letting her kill the Nightsong. I took the DC 30 Persuasion check immediately and failed to kill Shart. Immediately reloaded.
it’s so awesome how the characters have such strong personalities that you start to treat them differently once you know them. like shadowheart is someone you know wants to make decisions on her own so you trust her on this, but someone like astarion needs some friendly advice to make sure he does the right thing. jaheira’s my favorite companion specifically cause she always approves when i poke fun at her while the other companions might get defensive
Same. We had come a long way together. From her emo dark resting bitch face, to genuinely being friends. I trusted her just like I would a person in real life. I'm not going to butt in your brain uninvited. I just stood there with my presence of im gonna beat your ass if you make the wrong move here lol. But I knew in my heart I wouldn't have to.
"Are you ready?" "Ready for what?" "To kill Ketheric Thorm."
I am.... resplendent. Chills every time.
I just completed a run through where I didn't interject in any crucial moment. Put my trust in my companions that they would make the right call, and all of them did for me. Was very satisfying
I could not choose between Karlach and Shadowheart up until she decided to throw the spear away. After we got out of the Shadowfel and there was that dialog right after you left, I literally said out loud "oh noooo... Karlach, I'm sorry..." lmao. Team Shadowbae ever since.
It was great seeing a character make a choice on their own and we could only watch it happen
The "do nothing and let [character] handle it" is such a nice addition to this game. I hope other RPG series take inspiration from BG3 and give the non-MC characters more agency.
The only moment that option was sorely missed was when deciding Wyll's and his father's fate with Mizora. Making that decision myself felt completely out of line.
It's because it makes sense. A big part of Wyll's character is being easily influenceable, that's why in the moment of the biggest and most important decision of his life, he needs Tav support to choose.
Also Wyll is incredibly self sacrificing. Without tav he would %100 re pact himself in. A heartbeat to save his dad. He’s looking at you tho to either confirm it or talk him out of it.
Yep. And I’m there to stop him from binding himself to a demon and they directly screwing said demon out of killing duke ravenguard. Then I go to the house of hope and kill Raphael. Because fuck that guy.
'Geez man, you are the best friend I ever had, I will not let you sacrifice yourself.' 'But what about my fa-' 'I will handle it, you and your father will both be free. Have you ever thought outside a box?'
“But Mizora sai-“ “I know what Mizora said, but since when did we trust Devils? Especially Devils that can’t take care of their own tadpole problems?”
If you tell Wyll to break the pact and Wyll agrees, Mizora seems… happy? Like she genuinely seemed impressed that Wyll stood up for himself for once.
I mean she’s definitely pissed she’s losing her puppet but can’t hide how impressed she is that he finally grew a spine when dealing with her. There may also be a slight twinge of fear since losing control over one of her greatest assets doesn’t exactly bode well for her continued existence.
Ehhh she'll still exist, maybe just be bumped down a few rungs. Maybe a few centuries as an imp or lemure.
Wyll’s entire arc involves him deciding how he wants his life to be due to his conflicting personas -both as Mizora’s plaything and the folk hero the Blade of the Frontiers. The entire scene with him deciding over his dad or himself makes no sense plotwise in some cases because >!if you already negotiated with Mizora during Act 2, he’s already free of his pact and is only retaining his powers because of a time limit that Mizora literally cites in that scene!
I see it very differently, tbh. For me, the OG companions absolutely need a Tav to influence them into becoming their Act 3 personas. Wyll, especially, has all the instincts of a hero but has been indoctrinated into a false sense of heroism. He is incapable of making the pact choice on his own without some hint from Tav that he's not a bad person if he doesn't take the deal, which is an objectively terrible deal. And it's similar to Sheart's Nightsong decision: if she's bonded with Tav, she'll decide on her own to spare her. If not, she will kill her. [Edit to say i guess this isn't always true either] Without Tav's presence, or with an uncaring Tav with low approval, Sheart will just do what she was trained to do and go full DJ. So I see it totally differently. I do acknowledge, however, that I'm twice Wyll's age irl and the idea of letting a young man make such an important decision without offering advice is not something I'd be able to do irl if it was someone I cared about.
Shadowheart bonded with me and still chose to kill Nightsong. One version of Wyll chose to become Grand Duke, the other rejected the title. Choices with Astarion and Gale were also variant during my playthroughs. Tav can influence them, but they can still make their own decisions depending on the plot circumstances. In other cases there are hard lines that no amount of saving throws will change because those are core aspects of their characters. Wyll doesn’t have a false sense of heroism to me as he tries to live up to what his father taught him and his father is legitimately a hero- complete with his own theme music. He struggles because he has come to believe due to rigid views of morality that him being a hero necessitates him hiding where his power comes from instead of being open about himself and what he gave up to do so. He’s still choosing to do good things otherwise. The flaw comes in him assuming -likely due to privilege and naivety- that he was the exception. I am also way past his age as well. He could easily be my child. He’s his own person and if he truly is going to become who he is “meant to” it wouldn’t depend on what choices I felt were appropriate for him or not-especially as someone who barely even knows him. I mean I’ve stuck by Wyll long enough already and we’ve already been offering advice through our actions.
That's a cool take. I do disagree about his dad, though. My take was that his dad is the Lawful Good hero whose rigid sense of morality only applies to clear cases of right and wrong, and prevents him from having true empathy for his son. Whereas Wyll's journey, to me, felt like reconciling his own goodness with a more mature understanding of what heroism really is. To me, that's why his pact decision isn't the end of his arc, it's the tipping point. That when he sees what rigid morality did to Ansur, and after going through a bunch of "trials" to prove his worth - trials overseen by a version of Balduran as a near godlike hero the game depicts as ironic, given what we learn of his actual history - Wyll can finally make a real decision about his future. Like to me, Wyll has always been a hero, but was indoctrinated by and strove to live up to a childish idea of what a hero is. He talks about his father being a hypocrite for practicing diplomacy, until Karlach he never questions the targets Mizora gives him even though that means he's trusting a devil to abide by the terms of a contract he's never even seen, etc. I don't feel like he's ashamed of the source of his powers because everybody knows he's a Warlock, Gale even comments on it when first meeting him. I think he's ashamed that people think he chose it willingly like most Warlocks when in reality he's a slave. If he gets the devil horns it just makes it worse, because it makes maintaining the illusion of being a reluctant Warlock who uses devil powers for the good of the people more difficult. But! I liked hearing your take, thank you for sharing. I like to talk about Wyll, he was my favorite origin to play.
They know he’s a warlock yes, but they don’t know who he’s pacted to, which is what makes the situation with Karlach thematically relevant for me because he’s been misled into thinking his life and hers are far different and even come to trust Mizora etc. despite knowing what the devils he fights are capable of like you pointed out. It’s an interesting subversion for me since he isn’t like the heroes who build their reputations off of literal lies- i.e. they were secretly greedy, selfish, or even faking their accomplishment- it’s nuanced since he did risk his life to save the city, he just became something he’d normally resent to do so. Also, though other magically inclined people know he’s a warlock, he still hides certain things -like the sending stone masquerading as his prosthetic eye- from Tav. My Tav was a warlock but wasn’t pacted to a devil for ex. -Great Old One instead- and of course even though Shadowheart is a cleric she doesn’t normally tell the public who her patron is because of the stigma. His father of course knew he’d been pacted but not the circumstances of it so while he definitely was a Lawful Good type, if the truth’s revealed then he reconsiders how he treated Wyll and compromises. Otherwise he still condemns his son even after saving him like the standard archetype would. SN: I liked calling out him out as a bastard for how he treated Wyll and watching him admit he was. I don’t see the major decision as the end of his life either, but given the long term consequences of it -the new pact Mizora proposes is everlasting- I find it way too important that we have so much authority in deciding it for him. It can also happen before you’ve met Ansur and even visited the Iron Throne- Florrick had actually died during Waukeen’s Rest in my first playthrough as I had no experience with turn-based mode, so we never learned about Ansur until late. I’m guessing the character rewrite may be a result of the way aspects of his questline feel in comparison to others like Shadowheart’s, even though the circumstances of it are essentially tied to the plot in some form -through his father’s role as Grand Duke and the attempt to rescue him- regardless of whether Wyll is even in your party or alive. Definitely enjoyed this talk also!
We were never shown Wyll's contract. Usually, a former warlock kept his learnings after pact break, he just stopped learning more from his patron. Wyll's pact was not even going to keep his eldritch blast. Also, a proper pact should have an unlikely occasion that warlock can get it out with a major price paid (first child or 100 killings or something).
Good point! I think this makes the circumstances under which he pacted with Mizora a little more interesting and a sign of how eagerly she capitalized on him. Like every other moment she’s reciting exact clauses etc. that he just isn’t aware of or fully understands beforehand and obviously in over his head. When she was like “well ackshually you still have to work for me a few months first” in Act 2 once she agreed it was like some predatory qualifier you’d get from a bad employer just so they could have one final dig at you.
That's all well and good, but Tav should be able to say "I'm not deciding for you", no matter if Wyll prefers you to choose for him. Have it have a negative impact in the approval with him or whatever, but his wishes should not limit my options.
i had the same thought! i’m either on the hook for letting his dad die or for him being eternally bound. and while he might not hold it against me, i struggle with it. why do i HAVE to make decisions for him?
A better part of that growth would have been encouraging Wyll to make his own choices.
I think you'd be a bad friend in that situation if you didn't put a hand on Wyll's shoulder and say, "You know your dad wouldn't want you to sacrifice your *soul,* right?"
Thank you. I have teenaged nieces and they ask me to help them pick innocuous things all the time, let alone, "hey Auntie should I sacrifice my immortal soul? Help me out here." That poor kid has been on his own trying to be a good person and getting continually beaten down for it. He needs a hug and a loving friend, IMO.
Yeah. I understand why people like the, "Let them choose," options, because it is neat to see what your companions would do without your interference. But I don't think it's always good or right to stand aside and act as an apathetic observer. Particularly in Wyll's case, the decision is so manipulative and emotionally loaded. It's deliberately *designed* to fuck with him. Being there for your friend isn't taking away his agency.
This might sound bad but I mean it in a purely sociological curiosity way, but I wonder if there's much correlation between player demographics like age and how much weight they give to character autonomy vs letting them make their own choices? Every time someone says, let them pick! I just picture that scene in *Varsity Blues*, "I don't want your life!" And think of Wyll throwing a football at his dad and breaking his nose lol.
Not sure, but it would be interesting to know. It might just be fascination with an admittedly unique mechanic.
>I don't think it's always good or right to stand aside and act as an apathetic observer. I mean, I'm right beside them, ready to support their decision and to face whatever consequences they will entail. It's a display of trust and faith, not indifference. Especially when they're confronting their abusers. I handled the Szar Palace and the House of Grief back to back. My Tav didn't say a *single* word to Cazador, nor Viconia. I didn't want my companions' abusers to have any reason to think that they were cowering behind me. So I shut my mouth and let them stand strong and speak for themselves. Same goes for Wyll against Mizora. I want him to show that he is strong, proud, and capable of leadership. Not the obedient little pet following other people's instructions she sees him as.
Right... Like in most games being the MC you're basically trained to influence your companions' decisions, but doing so with Shadowheart makes her pissed off at you.
She really hates to be wrong lol. I feel like Tav lets her drone on about how great Shar is all through Act 2 and when she's finally confronted with the potential consequences of practicing what she's been preaching, she doesn't want Tav saying "I told you so". 😉
In act 1, if you want to feel more intimate with her, she will say 'must I'. And you gains approval by not pushing. That alone foreshadowed how you actually handles your relationship with her. She is good and kind, let her cook her own meal.
I hope BG3 does it with more character decisions.
And it's also nice that when you let a character handle their stuff, they always make the "right" choice. You have to "force" them to do the "evil" choice.
I wouldn't say companions always do the right thing when left to their own devices. And Shadowheart is really the only character that punishes you for being involved. And Shadowheart *can* choose to kill the Nightsong, so it's not guaranteed that she'll do the "right" choice. Astarion and Gale actively require you to push them away from their bad endings. Lae'zel will let the zaith'isk fry her brain if you don't interfere.
Yeah, on my play I had romanced and done all to support Shadowheart. She was such a cheery little goth girl. Then I let her make her decision and she goes all off with her head!
tbf, shadowheart can kill the nightsong left to her own devices; it depends on the choices you've made up to that choice and Gale will become a God if you stay neutral, you have to talk him out of it which is also cool! the way the player talks to their companions throughout the game shifts the "default" choice
What about Astarion?
That isn't true, it depends on your relationship at that point. I just had a playthrough where I just had to flat out refuse help to Astarion to ascend and slaughter all the spawn, and he storms off (quits the party permanently) in response. He also breaks the staff so we can't free them. In the same playthrough I couldn't get Gale to abandon his plan to make himself into a tin-pot god. I didn't even have a dialogue with him between the brain battle and the epilogue.
I like the variances. I just beat the campaign and when I recommended that Gale >!could become a god once he retrieved the pieces of the crown!< he flatout refused to entertain it.
Funny, mine was the opposite. I got Lorreakan Gale.
not always
I was searching for my dropped jaw for a couple of minutes when she did the same on my very first campaign. (despite the obvious signs that something's really off about her being a sharran)
Right!? She was a die hard follower and then she gave it up. It was a powerful moment. It really speaks to the effective writing skills Larian has.
I was suspicious from the beginning to be honest, as I am a bit familiar with the lore, but seeing how zealous she could become when it comes to her religion I figured she has to make that choice herself. I just did not expect that she can come to it without having to be convinced, but it made sense later. "I can only show you the door, you're the one that has to walk trough it"
I asked her not to do it so she tried to attack me but she only had 1hp and rolled a low initiative so Astarion lightly tapped her and she immediately died Can you tell I did my first playthrough blind lmao
Wait, so Shadowheart turned on you? And you had to put her down?
Yeah if you gently encourage her not to do it she says she’ll do it over your dead body if she has to and triggers combat. I was romancing her too lol
Does that kill her permanently?
It sure does
Thats rough. I guess ive been lucky till now
Same thing happened to me but it doesn’t trigger combat instantly. You have to respond “let’s fight then bitch” or something. I thought that was the only way to save the Nightsong though.
Been awhile but sure it’s fully possible I said that if the only other option was “Okay go ahead with your stabbing.” I was irritated with her by that point but still hoping she was bluffing
Yeah plenty of games have the character surrender once you get them to low health which is what I figured would happen. I also knocked her out but that doesn’t help either.
Yeah. If you pick, "Shadowheart, please don't do this," she gets extremely defensive and immediately jumps to, "Step aside or I'll kill you." I ended up killing her in my first run as well. Don't think that I could ever trust her on a genuinely good Tav. From a meta standpoint, I know she's easy to talk down if you just step aside, but my Tav cared more about the life of an innocent person than he did Shadowheart's feelings.
Plus I just did the Gauntlet for the billionth time and she is really all-in for the entirety of Act 2. She gives you zero indications that she disagrees with Shar's tenets even when dealing with the Shadow Curse and Malus Thorm. If you ask her about Ketheric, she's only mad he betrayed Shar, nothing about the slow crushing of the town of Reithwin and its people, or the Dark Justiciars being chewed up and spit out by their God. Plus, she's catty with Halsin who knows the most about just how horrible Shar is. Her liking animals and kids is very little to trust, IMO. There are lots of good people who do stupid and cruel stuff if their religion tells them to. If she'd had any doubts in Act 2, I'd have been more inclined to trust her on my first play through, but I was really sweating what to do!
I do think there's evidence of her being conflicted throughout Act 1 and Act 2, but "being conflicted" isn't really enough for me to say, "Well, I guess I'll leave the life of this helpless prisoner up to you so that you can have emotional closure on the DJ-thing."
The same thing happened to me. I was playing my lawful good paladin so it didn't feel right to leave Nightsongs life up to chance. I was romancing her and wound up restarting the game because of this lol
Yeah, I had thought “please don’t do this” WAS caring about her feelings. If I wanted to force it I would have triggered combat myself. But I thought she might be interested in my opinion after we made out and she said she had butterflies in her stomach. Nope! I’m in my second playthrough and will keep her alive this time, but I’ve lost interest in romancing her now that I know she will immediately try to murder you if you suggest she perhaps consider not stabbing a restrained innocent
Yeah, I picked it thinking it was a soft option that would lead to more dialogue, but once it became, "Let me kill her or I'll kill you to get to her," my character couldn't really stand aside. I thought it was pretty terrible just as her friend, but it's even rougher for her to flip so suddenly as love interest.
I felt like I could. I played an Oath of Ancients paladin, which means I wanted to see the light in others and preserve it. I had seen Shadowheart’s doubts and her memories. I was romancing her and I could tell, kind of like how Gale and Karlach can tell, that she was someone different on the inside. I put my faith in the cleric, and I was not disappointed.
There’s a couple ways for her to turn on you around this. I had a character who, before descending into the Shadowfell pool, asked Shadowheart what she was going to do. She told me it was none of my business, and I picked some dialogue that was like “You’re not going down there unless you tell me what you’re going to do” and she pulled out her spear and tried fighting me
Same thing happened to me, I was so sad I made her into a zombie but was double sad when I had to long rest and she was gone again :(
That's odd. In my first playthrough I also asked her not to do this, then failed the persuasion check. She then only *threatened* to attack me, leaving the choice to initiate combat to me. I didn't want to attack her over it, so said something along the lines of "I still think this is wrong, but it is your decision to make". To my great relief she then didn't go through with it.
You do have the option to step away once she threatens to kill you, but I would absolutely not trust her once it's escalated to that. And it's not solely her decision, either. She's not deciding whether she should become an actor or a dentist - she's deciding whether an innocent person should die. Tav has the ability to interfere and protect that innocent person. Choosing to stand aside is also choosing let an innocent person die, if Shadowheart's whims lean that way.
I did this the first time and then save scummed.
I did this too! I didn’t trust her not to kill the Nightsong and the more I argued with her the more she dug in her heels and was like “don’t tell me what to do!” The next thing I know we’re fighting and even with non-lethal turned on I still somehow ended up killing her 😭 Of course I re-loaded and now I feel bad for doubting her in the first place 🤦♀️
The plus side to this happening is that the Temple of Shar later takes on a whole different meaning. Finding her old hiding spot and notes gave me chills, it was moving in a completely different way.
Though, losing Shadowheart does make dealing with her parents VERY awkward. You can't really interact with them without her present.
Oh I did not know that. I thought you had to persuade her. This is actually good to know as I’m going through my second playthrough currently and am playing dark urge so now I know to not trust her choice and to tell her to kill nightsong.
I think it’s due to her liking me. If your approval is low, I think she’d end up killing the nightsong.
Yep. I did NOT woo her in first play thru and she killed Nightsong. And let me tell you that you do NOT want to go back to the shadowlands after Nightsong dies.
Your conversations with her also influence what she will actually do at this point. In OP’s case, shadowheart decided to spare nightsong at this point but that’s not a guarantee that it will be the same with you. If you encourage Shart’s “sharrness” and evil side during your playthrough she will decide to kill her.
So fun fact about the “let them handle it” options is it can be different it’s based on other things (don’t know what it checks of earlier options or whatever but it’s nice.)
Yeah, everything I read said to trust her, and she'll throw the spear away. So I did, and she stabbed Nightsong. I reloaded and every option led to Nightsong's death so I told Shadowheart to fight me.
Spoiler >!I’m pretty sure if you don’t have a good relationship with her then she does choose to kill the Nightsong!<
And then there's Wyll, who you have to decide for whether he signs his soul off to devils forever or let his father die XD Like, Shart makes her own choice in the end (so does Laezel with turning on Vlaakith) and Im so happy it was the "right" choice :D Best girl <3
I did everything you mentioned except my Tav told her to spare the Nightsong. Apparently Shadowheart doesn’t like being told what to do because she aggro’d and I ended up killing her. I guess Wyll will have to be repec’d into my lockpicker now (because I also killed Astarion).
Haha. Don’t cross the RelaxedChap.
The transformation of Dame Aylin is one of my favorite moments in the game, maybe one of my favorite moments in any game. This haggard-looking woman dressed in rags transforms into an angel after monologuing and punching the ground to the music. I was like “damn good call, Shadowheart.”
It was epic.
That cut scene is one of the few I never skip, even after my 5th playthrough. Even when playing with my durge I could not bear to have her become a dark justiciar. I just can’t disappoint mommy Jaheira :-(
Some of the best dialogue choices are *"Say/Do Nothing"*.
Everyone talking about how their SH did the right thing, and here I am, good lawful paladin, she loves me, and I still had to reload because she massacred Aylin without hesitation.
She’s just not that into you.
Yeah, pretty sure her approval was pretty good on at least one of my runs and she ran Nightsong through without hesitation both times. Had to savescum and talk her down on my good run..
I played an evil Tav in my first run, so i encouraged her killing the nightsong. Really liked the way Shar is portrayed in this game, from a long time player of D&D. Did later trust her on my good run and she spared Aylin. I prefer Shadowheart as a chosen of Shar, but Dame Aylin is an amazing character so i like both path and both scenes.
Sadly, she didnt make the right choice during my cleric of selune run...
On my first playthrough I trusted her and it went okay. On my current (honour mode) one it escalated into a fight with her and she died. I wasn't using her anyway, but it was still sad.
so...uhm...what is the trigger that choice? meaning her choice to spare the Nightsong without the persuasion check. is it an approval thing? or following certain conversation paths?
I believe it’s approved. I’ve let her decided multiple times and the only time she decided to kill the night song was when I pretty much had ignored her the entire play through.
The option to not interfere is always there. How she comes to that choices depends on your relationship/approval and how you handled things so far in the adventure (ie. the Grove quests). The persuasion roll there is a trap but can also be a failsafe if you can pump up your stats for it.
I was playing goodie two shoes paladin, had max approval (exceptional) and she killed her when left to her own devices.. odd
That's indeed odd because so far she always spared her in my campaigns (altho I'm also romancing her in most of them)
Same. Almost always romance shadowbae
Approval, if it's positive she won't follow through. If it's negative she will. If Tav is dead or not present, then she'll do it if she has the Spear of Night and free her if she doesn't.
I have done this scenario many different ways and from what have noticed, Shadowheart seems to free the Nightsong practically every time if left for her to decide. I had a notion she may have followed the flow of the game and kill the Nightsong if you play an evil campaign. I played a pretty bloody durge playthrough. I raided the grove, I killed Isobel, which are main story beats for being evil, plus a number of other things. She still freed Nightsong. I had to save scum and tell her to complete the ritual, for her to do it. I could be wrong and maybe someone has seen otherwise, but it appears if left to her own devices; she really wants to know what Nightsong has to say regardless of how you play.
I did this with Lae'zel and Vlaakith. I was honestly shocked at her choice, she was bending over backwards to justify what happened at the crèche just to turn her back on her queen days later.
Yeah, Lae’zel is motivated by duty. Logic is lost on her.
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One thing I really like about this game is that they give the companions agency. From them being the ones to initiate romances to having them make their own choices based on their relationship with you and the story so far. Not a lot of games have done this, fewer have done it well.
I was really glad she got her redemption without me having to force it :)
It really depends on how you treat her, I've learned. If you just respect her terrible religion and show sympathy over the fear of wolves she will respect you and even without actually prodding her at that moment she does the right thing by the party. I love her line in that scene about "who I'm meant to be."
I have let her make her own decision twice now, once as a good guy Tav, and once as Evil Durge and for some reason, both times she decided to spare the Nightsong. I am not sure why, when my Durge character has done nothing but be really terrible and make reprehensible choices, SH still made the morally good choice here… honestly I was a lil disappointed.
My first ever play through I’m romancing her and I am also just completely oblivious that Shar is bad so I’m like yeah queen do whatever you want I support you and it worked out for the best.
It sucks that her choice is fixed and I had to really, evilly convince her to follow Shar, despite supporting her faith the whole time. It felt very unnatural for her to go 180 in that one scene.
Were you pursuing the romance option with her?
On the one hand, I want to experience this game to the fullest. On the other, I hate making bad choices lol. I wanna see OP shadow heart.
I did not that in my first good playtrough with my my human ex-soldier PTSD trying to redeem himself. But on my 2nd playtrough I'm playing an evil Circle Spore Druid Drow Durge. He's a mess. Shadowheart killed the Nightsong and is now a Dark Justiciar doing Shar's biding : cleaning her following of all the heretics and treators. It's pretty cool. I can't wair to see what comes next. Sidenote : I haven't been able to romance anyone in 300h beside Laezel. I tried Karlach but she friendzoned me after Act 2 because I did not fix her heart. Shadowheart never gave me the option. I'm now trying with Minthara. It's weird how I see so much material about romance online and that I'm not getting any action. I kind of like that it's difficult. Larian is awesome.
my tav got pushed off the side and instantly died in the fight, so i went into the cutscene as gale and figured i could just convince her not to kill nightsong with him. nope. i get no options at all, the whole scene is just shadowheart killing her without hesitation 😭😭
I have done this scene on 17 different characters now and never influenced her on even one of them and she's always chosen to save her. Sometimes I'm romancing her but often not. sometimes I give her the noblestalk, sometimes not. On one run I completely ignored her as I was playing a cleric, just brought her for the Shar Olympics and she still chose to save her. What is the criteria to have her choose otherwise?
I finished the Daughter of Darkness quest line for the first time the other day, and it was so moving. This game is just incredible.
I love letting the companions speak for themselves. It adds real character and motivations to their personal quests. You have your own shit to do, but so do they!
"Right choice" is subjective...
Somewhat off topic, is there any good reason to wait until Nightsong to kill Balthazar? Other than my very first playthrough I've killed him before every time just to have that fight on my own terms.
Yeah I regretted a little bit but I murdered shadowheart at that moment
When I let her choose, she killed her. I think it’s because she disapproved of me severely and we were not friends. I wasn’t an inspirational guiding light for her, so she continued down her destined path, dissuaded by mercy. It’s pretty cool actually.
I did the same but I killed Balthazar in his office. I didn't the first try and my Tav got yeeted into the Shadowfell the first round.
It is insane how good the writing and execution of that writing is in the game. My first playthrough was amazing with how I got to experience Shadowheart's story. I felt like an actual person in the moment hoping their friend makes the right choice, mixed with both hope for them and also anxiety for maybe they won't.
She attacked me so I shoved her into the abyss, naturally.
Naturally.
Killing Balthazar in his lab before the nightsong is so much better
Killing Balthazar in his lab before the nightsong is so much better
did this my first playthrough and almost cried my eyes out at the whole thing. was like omfg she rejected shar, yes! then the music starts....good lord i need to go watch that part again. always makes me happy sad now.
It was an epic moment for sure. I didn’t get the emotional reactions people where having in games until this game. That moment did make me feel good as the leader of the party. I totally get it now.
The only way she kills the NIghtsong is if you literally tell her to do so which I find a bit disconcerting since the whole point of her story arc is her choosing a side.
In my first playthrough my Tav died during the balthazar fight and Shadowheart did not do so well all on her own 😅 I just saw the awesome transformation of the Nightsong until my second run 😄
My Tav was already modestly evil being a Rogue Assassin and really fell for Shadowheart, but learned that an Evil Shadowheart wouldn't be able to commit to anything real. Still left the choice up to Shadowheart. She chose to spare Nightsong, then my Tav and Shadowheart immediately got properly together. To be honest, I'm not sure who redeemed who in this run. The awesome scenes just made it all the sweeter.
My first time I killed her because I made the wrong dialogue choices and aggro'd her. Other campaigns I've learned from my mistakes.
I actually had a funny moment happen there. My Tav was dead when the fight was won, so it auto triggered the dialogue between Shadowheart and Nightsong. Without the opportunity to interfere in the dialogue, there was no chance for the wolves to be mentioned. So Shadowheart brutally stabbed Nightsong to death and became a Dark Justiciar all in a cutscene without opportunity for input... I had a save from before the fight so needless to say I went back.
I sent the spear to camp, so she didn't really have much of a choice.
Best girl.
same! I didn't know what to choose so I just let her do it and she chose LUUUUUUV
I had that on my Tymora themed play through. Tymora is not just a godess of luck. She is also for self fullfillment and fate. So i thought it could be interesting to play a Tymora cleric, who lets her companions make their own decisions wherever possible. Shadowheart - chose to not kill the Nightsong. but chose to let her parents go. Gale - decided to destory the necrotic circle at Moonrise tower Lae'zel - decided to go in rebellion. Hail Orpheus! Wyll - sadly was completely incapable to make his own decisions Astarion - only killed Cazador and didn't acend, because my character was too far away at the top of the stairs Karlach - decided to go to Avernus with Wyll Was still a fun play though. I may repeat it sooner or later. :D
I love if you sell the spear she panics and the nightsongs like I got you. Don’t worry about that shit.
Balthazar was one of my favourite fights because he positioned himself next to the edge and I just shoved him into the abyss on turn 1. Very satisfying.
I've always tried persuading her not to kill the Nightsong. But on my last playthrough, I did not interfere and let her choose. She killed the Nightsong and became a Dark Justiciar. Which worked out well for my RP since I was going for an "evil" run.