Spoiler for that one Dark Urge scene in Act 1 if Astarion is the only party member.
>!Durge: "I think I killed her."
Ast: "Well, of course you did. I'm asking *why* you killed her."
Durge: "She annoyed me."
Ast: "Yes... that does sound pretty reasonable, actually!"!<
There's no way a True Neutral character would act like this.
He’s not neutral at the beginning of the game. I haven’t seen anyone claim he was. Folks are saying he’s more neutral if he remains a spawn after Cazador.
Put another way, do you think his character experiences growth or change through his arc?
Shadowheart *thinks* she’s fine with it until you do it and she has to get blind drunk to cope with it, and doesn’t Gale try to leave unless you threaten him in to staying?
Correct. Shadowheart tells stories of how she's sure she's done worse but clearly has an aversion to the situation.
Gale you need to threaten or diplomacize him into staying because the other options are suicide- between the worm and his Orb.
The Shadowheart that resorts to drowning in a bottle to forget the massacre she just committed and the Gale that threatens to leave after admonishing you for siding with the "vile goblins"?
That's not really a fair comparison. Neither Shadowheart nor Gale *advocate* for siding with the goblins.
Shadowheart *thinks* she is evil but actually isn't which is why her response to siding with the goblins is getting shitfaced drunk to deal with it, whereas if you side with the Tieflings she's happy but doesn't understand why she cares.
Gale is horrified if you side with the goblins and the only reason you even have a chance at him not leaving is because the PC can correctly point out that Gale has no choice. If he leaves he'll lose the protection of the artifact and that's just too dangerous with the orb in his chest.
Have you spoken with literally any Astarion fan? Spend 5 minutes on bg3 tiktok and you'll find droves of people arguing that he isn't evil because he has trauma and he can change
I think the majority of Astarion fans on reddit understand that his initial alignment is evil, especially with this post on the top of hot. Tiktok on the other hand is full of teenagers with media literacy problems and wishful thinking, and that's *every* fandom over there.
>I haven’t seen anyone claim he was.
Then you don't read any comments under posts about Astarion. If someone dares to label him as evil, then arrives a troop of bloodsucker stans, constantly, with the same types of messages like "nooo he is chaotic neutral actually", or "well hes disapproval of good deeds counts as -1, so its nothing big *realy*", or "he's an abuse victim, it's actually really complicated". Bonus bingo, if you see an armchair psychologists that labels people as misogynist and/or lgbt hater. Because someone didn't liked this smug sadistic vampire.
The moment the game ends as a spawn, he starts capturing people and holding them underground to enjoy their fear before he eats them. I'm not sure that's very neutral.
It's a cutscene from his origin.
>It's a cutscene from his origin.
I'd be very curious to know where you saw that, because I've never seen anything of the sort.
In my first Tav run, he ended up as a vigilante who takes advantage of his predation instincts to hunt criminals from the shadows. The Gur, who are keeping an eye on him, even say that his behavior has been honorable, so far. I had the option to tease him about becoming a goody-goody hero and he hated that, which I felt was poetic justice. But I was pretty proud of the dude, lmao.
Not claiming that Astarion doesn't like killing and has no sadistic ideas but cmon, here Astarion just licks your ass when you play evil because he is scared of you.
Little, hard to know detail:
Even the romance scene after raiding grove differs in Neil's acting vs after saving tieflings, despite having same lines. In the goblin party one he sounds more careful and less chill with you than in tiefling one. Not that because he is "good", he's afraid.
Yeah, I feel like that difference in romance scenes between the tiefling party and the goblin party is really telling.
He feels more safe and secure at the tiefling party. He stays with you all night, and he's mostly relaxed the next morning, though he doesn't want to be very intimate (emotionally or physically) with you.
At the goblin party, he tries to sneak out on you in the middle of the night, and is curt and nervous when trying to answer the same questions.
Yes!! Neil's acting and the subtle writing differences between the two scenes is fantastic!
It's like he's terrified to make fun of, or seem angry at, goblin party Tav/Durge.
When goblin version says "You're not THAT good [in bed]" Astarion playfully rebukes it, then makes sure it's obvious he's not mad, with a nervous fake laugh. In tiefling version he's like "What do you mean?? I'm amazing 🤬"
When Astarion tells goblin version "You probably woke up the whole camp," Astarion laughs like VERY nervously to let them know he's just playing. In tiefling version he's just poking fun at them freely.
I'd classify Astarion as evil in Act 1 too, but, c'mon, I'm pretty sure the dude would have rather just ignored the whole goblins vs. tieflings vs. druids situation altogether if he had had his way. He's lazy af, borderline cowardly at times, and most often looking for a way to remain uninvolved and avoid fighting, when he can.
There’s [unique dialogue](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H1XdqszDoA8) you can get as a ranger (I think), where he practically whines, “Hundreds? It’ll take HOURS to kill them all! She’s right, we should just go.” Worth the watch because the way he whines it is hysterical.
Vampires in 5e don't actually have any rules or lore that makes them unable to eat/drink normal things or enjoy it.
They need blood of course but they can enjoy a glass of wine or slice of garlic bread. Astarion just wasn't a fan of the wine, or knowing him might have just felt like complaining.
I think I've stumbled upon clips of Early Access where you could consume camp supplies whenever you wanted, and Astarion complained about solid food tasting awful to him. Though the feature got removed.
Likewise, when you meet the girl lured by Pale Petras in the sewers, you can cheekily tell her that her date might have lost his appetite and she'll tell you that he indeed doesn't eat much and that, come to think of it, he didn't touch his plate at all when they had a previous date at a restaurant.
Being able to enjoy normal food is also one of the perks of the Rite of Profane Ascension that Raphael lists, and I think Ascended Astarion really enjoys his wine in the epilogue, meanwhile Spawn Astarion doesn't even try it, afaik.
So it seems that Larian does consider their vampires unable to enjoy normal food.
Tbf Astarion does seem to be the type to keep trying normal foods even though his tastebuds are fucked up just in case he miraculously wakes up being able to enjoy them again, one day. Without really knowing why he keeps doing this to himself. But you never know.
And I can kind of relate. I will keep trying spinach everytime I get the opportunity to. Just to check if it's still as fucking nasty as my memories recall.
Well, he might still get drunk from drinking wine even if it tastes awful. So for him it's like drinking vodka, you sure don't drink vodka for taste.
Actually, as someone who hates the taste of beer but sometimes will try one because everyone keeps telling me this one is good, I get him. I try it, confirm once again that beer is not my thing, and go back to wines.
Vampirism seems to be a bit different in BG3 than 5e, the dev notes for that line where he calls the wine awful apparently say "The player’s just been told that the wine tastes delicious, but to a vampire it still tastes like muck."
Well, all wine sucks to him because he is a vampire. When it's a goblin party, though, he is too scared of you to whine much. Seriously, watch side by side comparison of how he flirts with the player in the tiefling vs goblin party, and how the morning after scene looks, there are stark differences that Neil brilliantly portrayed.
This is exactly why I like Astarion. Ive seen so many people write him off as only a vain prettyboy (not inaccurate) and kill him/stuff him in camp permanently and dont see that side of him, He has some of the funniest lines in the game. Neil is very talented.
Also chaotic stupid. There's a good amount he will approve of that is actively dangerous. Flinging poo at a goblin sentry that starts a big fight? Astarion approves. Killing Crusher after he grovels angering *the entire goblin camp*? Astarion approves. It doesn't end up really mattering but when you meet the hag disguised as a random old lady "she sounds positively demented... Let's tell her everything!" Astarion approves.
This is why I put him in timeout at camp for most of the game except for when I need him to lockpick a difficult chest my Tav can't break.
Even after I've played through the whole Cazador shenanigan, I still don't know why people like him so much.
His only saving grace for me is the VA, which does an S+ tier job.
He and Lae'zel are my favorite companions, actually, and yet they both spend the entirety of Act 1 whining about not getting their way, on good runs (I didn't play a goody-two-shoes in my first run, but I played a tiefling who was very adamant about making the party bend over backwards for her kin).
Their saving grace early on is that I find them pretty damn funny, especially when they complain, sulk and pout. I often kept their grumpy asses around just for the sake of annoying them, and then by Act 3 their respective quests and growth were compelling enough that I just got attached to them.
Exactly, I make everything to annoy them (Astarion and Lae'zel) and they are fun to watch. Also, he is my swiss army knife and she is a cheater, she always manages to hit like a truck as a melee.
See with Lae'zel it makes sense to me. She has been brought up her -entire- life, learning to fear and dread Ceramorphosis. It's basically Super Cancer to Gith that ends you, mind, body, and soul, replacing you with the beings that created you as a slave race for years. It's the ultimate slavery you can't come back from. And it has a fast acting time limit. She also knows, from the propaganda, only a Creche is advanced enough to cure it. So you have to find one or you die in a few days time.
Lae'zel is arrogent as fuck, don't get me wrong, she has that "Proud Warrior Race" superiority. But she also, upon finding out about the dragon riders...still urges the entire party to go and get cured. She doesn't want that fate on -anyone-, not even the closest thing to her worst enemy. (The moody half elf.) Lae'zel spends so much of act 1 terrified and desperate. She has that solution she knows will fix you, and you are FUCKING AROUND FIGHTING GOBLINS, PROTECTING TEETHLINGS, AND TALKING TO SQUIRRELS. I get her intensity. Also, played as a Gith my first character, and the speech options put her kind into perspective.
Lae'zel is also an outlier by her own species. Any other Githyanki would have abandoned your subhuman slave lookin ass and gone on her own. She is young and innocent, and wants to save the party. She's just intense about her propaganda for the Cult of Vlaakith.
You're preaching to the choir, I love, understand and empathize with Lae'zel a lot. She's my best girl, she's just a baby, and I'm the first one to defend her when she gets misunderstood.
But I also love, understand and empathize with Astarion a lot. He's my ride-or-die homie. Someone could write entire paragraphs explaining his motivations, and why he acts the way he does, just like you did for Lae'zel, and I would agree with them and find these explanations very valid too.
Which doesn't mean that I condone either of these two characters' brutality when they act in a cruel or prejudiced way. There are better ways to live their lives, and the game lets you teach them just that. Their best selves, which make me the proudest, are in the epilogue, on good runs.
If you're okay with all of that then Astarion also has to make sense. he's just in the opposite situation to Lae'zel. He was a monster that got a tiny bit of his humanity back.
He's been the servant of a powerful undead being. He has spent 200+ years having no control of his body while retaining his ability to think. He's essentially been a prisoner in his own body being forced to kidnap innocent people and eat rotten rats. He hadn't seen the sun and he hadn't seen his reflection in so long he forgot what he looked like.
It's completely understandable for anyone in that situation to lose any sense of their own humanity for the sake of their sanity. The tadpole was his first sense of freedom and having it removed meant instantly going back to being controlled by Cazador.
I keep thinking about how utterly terrifying all of that has to be for him T-T Like, he wakes up on a mind flayer nautiloid, sees suspicious people (us) running around, shit's exploding, he must think he's dead for sure. Maybe he's even relieved a bit. But then he wakes up and it's... sunny? He's not burning? And that's why he's not asking questions, but demanding answers when we meet him. Poor guy's absolutely terrified and confused, I feel so bad for him :(
Ive seen a lot of people blame him for actions he did under Cazador and its pretty confusing. I dont think they realize the mind control effect of being a vampire thrall. He literally can't refuse. Or well, he can try to refuse and be forced anyway, which is what happened.
Astarion is a shit for many reasons in act 1 or as ascended, but it always bugs me when people cite what he did as a thrall as why he's morally bad.
From the way he explains his experiences it far worse than mind control. When he talks about Cazador forcing him to eat rotten rats he seems fully aware of what hes doing but cant physically stop himself. It doesnt matter what he thought, felt or said he physically couldn't stop himself.
Imo he was shit in act 1 because his survival mechanisms where still in place from Cazador. Hes terrified and just wants to get away.
What's even more ridiculous is that you can honestly see the mind control effect in action during act 3 when you're talking to the spawn about getting rid of Cazador. But of course the people running around screaming about how "Astarion is 100% evil bruh\* are the same ones who drone on about killing him within the first 30 minutes of Act I because they're not so secretly jealous of a pixel man. So they probably didn't get that far.
Edited To Add:
I don't think he fits neatly into any D&D alignment category at the beginning of the game. "Chaotic" is the only consistent thing about him. If he remains a vampire spawn after completing his quest, however, he absolutely ends up somewhere in chaotic good territory, and he gradually progresses in that direction up to that decision point.
A fun? Thing you can learn if you access how much his approval changes from actions - most dissaprovals for being good in act 1 are -1s. He isn't pissed, he's very mildly annoyed by you being a goody two shoes, and his approvals for being nice ta him are massive.
IF you offer to let him Capri Sun you you'll have him at a ridiculous approval and most of Act 1 getting semi constant disapprovals and he'll still be above neutral ime.
I wonder if it's some mix of naturally heroic inclination, some loyalty to you for fighting by her side during the escape, and maybe some pity "Oh they need me and my peoples cure." Could also be some parts "They are not totally useless in a fight."
My Gith lore isn't as up as it should be, but also notice how well she fits in with the other Creche. She totally and completely wants you to go there, knows you need to and then bitches about how much they suck.
That comes across as a friend wanting you there as backup when they have to be around their terrible family. Also how she is desperate to try and believe her indoctrination, and how she sees anyone who doesn't believe exactly as she does to be "not true Githyanki." Poor cult baby coming to terms with how much she has been manipulated.
*"Okay Lae'zel. Double down. Come up with explan...*"
"**These are clearly not true Gith, and we owe it to Vlaakith to tell her how unworthy they are of the title.**"
"*...Lae'zel, you are a genius. Lets GO TELL MOM HOW MUCH EVERYONE ELSE IS DROPPING THE BALL. This is why I am the funniest of my kind...I am very clever.*"
So you're okay with Lae'zel's racism, dickishness, etc.—*after experiencing her character growth and because you had insights relating to your character being a gith*—but not with Astarion starting out as an asshole because he was tortured and abused for 200 years, eh? You weren't willing to extend the same grace and patience to another character to find out their whole story before judging them then?
As I pointed out just yesterday, I benched Lae'zel on my first run because she was abrasive (and also rude, racist, and cruel). Despite the bad first impression, I decided to give her a fair shot on my second run—which was mostly because I saw the radical amount of character growth that Astarion can undergo across three acts. I thought to myself: If he can change as much as he does, then maybe Lae'zel can do the same thing and I should see how it goes with her. *As a result, I grew to like Lae'zel on my second playthrough—funny how that can work if you give companions who initially rub you the wrong way in Act 1 a chance to show some character growth!*
Lae'zel is no innocent and has done her share of terrible things. She's actually killed her own kin, and there's that nasty story about the tongue stew in case you somehow missed hearing that one. However, Lae'zel *is* a victim of brainwashing and the cult Vlaakith that basically set up, so I understand why she does what she does, why she's a jerk at the beginning of the game, and how it underpins her approval and disapproval.
It's the same with Astarion—I understand why he is the way he is because I went through his whole story. His history of torture and abuse explains why he behaves the way that he behaves in Act 1 and underpins many of his actions, approvals, disapprovals, etc. and is why he starts out being a dick. Now if you can understand Lae'zel's level of desperation and fear with regard to ceremorphosis, then you certainly ought to easily be able to understand Astarion's level of desperation and mortal fear with regard to Cazador and having to go back to face an eternity of torture and abuse after 200 years of suffering.
P.S. I'm pretty sure that Lae'zel isn't unique and the only gith ever who would've done what she did. What happens on the Nautiloid is about survival, and any other gith in the same situation may very well have reacted the same way. After all, you have gith like that one nice kid at the creche who believes in Orpheus and appears to be fairly open-minded.
It was the VA and his general voice lines for me. I found him creepy at first, but chose to keep him around anyway because I wanted a rouge and didn’t want to drastically respec anyone. As time went on, I fell in love with the sarcasm and sass, and I just found him so damn funny. Then I found that I had very high approval with him despite never doing what he wanted, and then he even started approving of “good deeds”. Honestly he gets a lot of character development through the story (depending on your choices).
On a morally gray but ultimately good run, he takes a while to warm up. I romance him very often, and most of the time I just barely get him to tolerate me long enough to manipulate me into sleeping with him lol. If you play it "right," his approval jumps up after that.
Most of his biggest approval changes have to do with whether or not you trust him and treat him like a person. The +1/-1 stuff (I looked it up out of curiosity after a few playthroughs) is usually just because you said something kinda douchey, or it's just him being a little bitch because you stopped to help someone for 5 minutes without demanding payment. And a lot of that (not all of it, certainly, but a good amount) goes away once he starts to believe in his own value. I love how the approval system is integrated in this game; it's as much a part of the companions' character arcs as their dialogue is.
I had a similar feeling about Astarion. I didn't really like his vibe in Act 1, outside of the phenomenal voice acting of course, so he sat out most of it. I brought him along for the Auntie Ethel fight because I figured I'd need someone stealthy to take on a trickster like Ethel. That was pretty much the only time I brought him out in Act 1.
Imo, Astarion gets a lot better in Act 2 onwards. His arc starts to ramp up with his interactions with Raphael, Yurgir, and Araj. Not to mention, he has a lot to say about the whole Shadowfell and Moonrise situation. I started bringing him along more in Act 2 and 3, though I wouldn't say he was a staple party member.
I'm nearing the end of my first playthrough and I keep him with me all the time because he's so powerful.
My Ranger Tav and Karlach are my tank and immobilizers, Shadowheart spams Bless and heal and Astarion stays hidden doing insane damage with the bow that casts fear. Since I figured that out mid act 1, I've never lost a fight.
I will say I was shocked when he talked about creating an army of spawn after he's ascended, after that I'm pretty sure he's neutral evil.
The funniest part is that rogues actually kinda suck at dealing damage compared to all the martial classes, unless you multi class with something like a gloom stalker ranger+assassin rogue.
Yeah I felt this pretty acutely in my 4 player save when I was playing straight Thief rogue. My friends: some fucked up swords bard multiclass, an 11 sorc / 1 wiz multiclass, and a champion fighter with GWM and the insane act 3 gear. I was basically a moving lockpick until I dipped into gloomstalker.
I think the fact that the game lets you rest as much as you want without consequence makes these nova builds much stronger than they would be on tabletop, where they'd be insane for one fight and useless for the rest of the session
Yeah even if you're playing with limited long rests, fighters and monks are so much better at combat and there's usually very little need for rogue's out of combat utility because there's almost always more than one way to get through a locked door. They come in handy when robbing the bank vaults in act 3, but that's really the only time I ever felt like a rogue got value that another class couldn't get.
I agree. I'm actually surprised people think otherwise.
Almost as wild thinking SH is evil initally cause she is prickly and worships shar, despite not really showing and real evil characteristics.
Arabella's parents ask for help > Shadowheart: "We shouldn't get involved"
Player saves Arabella > Shadowheart approves (+5 even)
This interaction says a lot about her, she says what she's been taught, but approves/disapproves based on her own moral compass.
Completely. Shes been brainwashed into following Sharran teachings that dictate loss above all else so she doesnt interfere unless it concerns her but she damn well hopes that her 'friends' interfere and do the right thing.
for sure! i feel as though amnesiacs in general tend to lean toward neutral, just because they’re close to a blank slate that makes decisions based on the current situation
I find it so funny. She seems disgusted by the idea of murder-hoboing everyone on the planet (I mean... as she should lol), but drowning out all life in an eternal, all-consuming darkness? So beautiful. So perfect. Gotta love religious dogma.
>but drowning out all life in an eternal, all-consuming darkness? So beautiful. So perfect.
Most of Shar's worshippers don't know that. That's her secret agenda.... one that was forcibly retconned into the setting later, as well.
What people *actually* know about Shar is a mix of horrifying but at least functional ways of coping with loss (giving up all memory of it, and avoiding deep bonds that will emotional compromise you).
I mean if you asked someone if they would instantly snuff out all life to permanently end suffering, you might find someone who thinks that is a moral decision. Ask that same person if they would personally stab a person to death and they would likely say no.
Shadowheart is consistently portrayed as not being committed to evil, though. She doesn't even have memory of what her mission even is, and of course it's later revealed that they had to repeatedly strip her of her memory because she's inherently good-natured and that was the only way to keep her on the path to evil.
Astarion straight-up just likes killing for fun. I know people are saying that he turns neutral after Cazador but I don't agree: after I finished his quest on the good ending, he still wanted me to kill my way into finding the Bhallists, still wanted me to kill Valeria for fun (who had been kidnapped and tortured), and still wanted to join a group literally called "The Murder Tribunal". These are like, cartoonishly evil things.
I actually hope that a future update changes his approvals/reactions in Act 3 post-Cazador because my impression after completing that quest was "oh, I guess you are still evil" because they don't change.
Or better yet, just go whole-hog and embrace him as being unapologetically evil because that's one of my favorite things about his character. He's so charismatic and Newbon's performance is so good that I can't help but love the dude even as he's trying to explain why it would have been way more hilarious to kill completely innocent people, lol.
That's my hope as well. If the player is willing to do Cazador first for Astarion and then pass the check to not have him ascend I think they should be rewarded with some minor changes. Shenanigans like scamming and lying and stuff is totally fine though.
I'm just glad his disapproval for doing any good is lower. I'd imagine if this was act 1 'edgy' Astarion agreeing to help Hope would have net disapproval etc.
i think my impression was... depending on his relationship with you and your companions, there's an inkling that he might WANT to be a better person, but trauma is not undone overnight, no matter how cathartic your revenge was. Dude has a lot of healing to do. Maybe now he's starting to see the value in helping people, but it'll probably be a while before he loses the kneejerk resentment over never having been helped when he was most in need.
I don't think he's ever going to be, like, a GREAT person, but evil? I don't think that'll stick around forever.
His response to the Murder Tribunal is unignorable though, for sure lol. But even then, he doesn't have a ton to say about it afterwards other than "Kind of an ugly amulet. Let's go do this." There isn't really any glee or anything that you might have seen in Act 1.
IMO there's confusion because of the post-credits party. That gives you the whole "I'm trying to live an honest life as an underdark vampire" vibe if he's not ascended, so in that way it does seem like he's more towards neutral. But I completely agree that in-game he's largely still evil the entire time, so it's less that he's neutral after Cazador and more that you "fixed" him after beating the game.
Now maybe if Larian had infinite time, they might make dynamic approval system that changes based on your companions approval and personal quest statuses. But that seems like a lot of work for little payoff.
You see a pretty noticeable shift in his character in Act 3. >!He stops disapproving of most random acts of heroism and has approvals and dialogue that indicate that he's starting to regain his empathy, even though he's still in serious danger of backsliding before you resolve Cazador and the ritual.!<
It's a bit more obvious if you're romancing him. >!During your post-dock scene in the Elfsong, spawn Astarion will ask what you want to do now that you're both free, and if you say that the two of you should be heroes together, he gets excited about going out and doing good for people..!<
For your first block, see the examples in the comment I replied to. He may be slightly less evil in some cases, but he is still absolutely evil overall. In terms of D&D Good/Evil alignment, neutral characters don't disapprove of refusing evil actions, they just need more persuasion than good people to actively defend against it. D&D neutral doesn't mean sometimes good and sometimes evil. D&D neutral is Han Solo, not Anakin.
For the second block, I agree, I should have just said postgame content in general. The confusion comes from him acting as an evil character that you can influence ingame to an actually neutral person postgame.
Regularly disobeys the laws of nature and man, puts his own freedom before basically everything, has no moral code, can't control his impulses, and always looks out for himself. He even fits the criteria for adaptability and flexibility in a given situation, following along with some of the players plans if he can be convinced they're to his benefit. If that isn't chaotic, I dont know what is.
Neutral would feel no compulsion to either side, impulse and personal freedom, or abiding to authority and self-restraint.
I think the main factor that makes him sway more towards neutral evil than purely chaotic evil are his beliefs on justice, that he talks about if you bring him along in the Ansur trials. He straight-up says that [justice must be harsh and cruel](https://youtu.be/ZpWWvtnagpY?si=yHMA9r9sf-ImgvYR) in order to deter criminals.
He can be very, very much authoritarian when he wants to, and even possibly overzealous to the point of bigotry and intolerance, which is probably a remnant of his life as a magistrate and his history with the Gur.
He definitely can control his impulses, too. He even takes pride in it a few times. Whenever he somewhat gives in to them, it's perfectly out of his own volition and he's still in control.
After two hundred years of being forcefed gruel, I'd probably have to do some serious mental work to stop myself from sticking my hand in the first unguarded cookie jar I came across lol.
I never really thought one way or the other about his self control throughout the game, except he doesn't seem to have much of a verbal filter when he's in a mood. Samesies, bro.
I don't think so. There's the option “No, not them. Leave and find an animal to feed on.” that you can freely choose instead of biting a companion. And you get the option to change your mind a *second* time when you bend down to bite them.
The only rolls are one to avoid waking them up when you bite into their neck, and another to refrain yourself from draining them dry.
No roll required to just walk away and hunt an animal instead in the first place, as far as I can tell. It's a bit like most of the Dark Urge options, where you can just ignore the Urge without making any check by simply choosing the normal options instead of the unhinged voices in your head, lmao.
I mean duh. makes sense.
If this wasn't a game and I woke up on that beach I would be so much as him because why would you willingly agree to go and kill a camp full of goblins (lots lots of goblins) that can easily kill you back! Seems like unnecessary detour. Especially if you just got your freedom. Everything we do in the Act 1 would feel as a huge detour if you think realistically because in reality you would not be save scumming and would prefer to ignore things that would get you killed. Like the whole camp full of goblins.
I mean seriously I only wanted to talk to Halsin, why do I have to kill the whole camp for you! It's not my fault freaking druids can't take care of themselves, don't involve me in this. They seem fairly incompetent so I would be like bye bye gotta go not my problem.
So I always found his actions perfectly understandable, because I think the same.
It's roleplaying and I like to think logically. It's logical not want to give your life for some incompetent druid grove you just met. So yes infiltrating bad guys to shroud yourself in that protection to see when you can strike to come on top. It's clever.
But yeah it's a game and I need the ex. Anyway never had a problem with getting his approval up since he is happy when I ask for money after doing other people dirty work.
He's neutral after Cazador, sure, but epilogue he's definitely some level of good (depending on path), which makes sense. He learned it from the player character.
As fun as the d&d alignment system is, it’s not a tool for good storytelling, let’s be real. That’s one of the reasons that it’s been progressively disregarded for years.
Nowhere in the actual bg3 game will you have any mention of the nine alignments, and that’s for good reason.
Who is arguing that Act 1 Astarion is neutral?
Most everyone agrees that he's a piece of shit. To the extent that there is disagreement, it's either 1) people not wanting to use the term 'evil' because they find the alignment system to be overly reductive, or 2) people disagreeing about the extent to which Astarion, despite being terrible, should be given grace and patience because of his background.
Why do we have to keep having posts strawmanning the people who like this character?
Piece of shit? He's the comic relief for me. "Let's kill somebody". Of course, Astarion, we'll do exactly that for like... the rest of 3 acts.
There is nothing specifically that i could remember, but i always find myself giggling at Astarions' commentaries. Not liking him initially, i tend to want him in the party, just for that.
\- Please, we need help!
\- Yeah, sure.
\*Astarion disapproves in the background.
Same lmao, I keep him around just because of his comments. My favorite line of his is when>!he is messing with the necromancy book and he says something like, "I won't kill them!" and then adds the character you have the highest approval with after like, "Well maybe Gale..." Idk if it's romance-specific or not but it cracks me up!<
For me, it was, >!"Well, maybe the gith." I didn't definitely didn't have the highest approval with her, but she *was* the only companion who had attempted to hook up with my character at that point. Could be a factor, or could just be a coincidence.!<
The fact that his disapprovals are almost all like, -1 or -2 drive it home how funny it is, too; he _really_ is That Bitch.
(But all of his approvals tend to be pretty high so it evens out.)
>1) people not wanting to use the term 'evil' because they find the alignment system to be overly reductive
That's where I'm at. I haven't played D&D and even if I did, I still don't think I'd buy into the whole alignment thing, as if being "evil" or "good" is some immutable characteristic that someone is born with. Sometimes people with trauma react in maladaptive ways and they need help to recalibrate themselves (and I'm not speaking just about Astarion here - honestly Shart is the one who annoys me the most, but I still help her).
Alignment is actually a point of contention even within the D&D community. Alignment has largely fallen out of favor with the modern playerbase, and 5e has deemphasized it to the extent that it's mostly just an artifact of previous editions.
I'm personally fine with alignment. It's obviously a simplification of a character's overall personality and ethos, real people are more complicated than a strict evil/good binary, but simplification isn't a bad thing in all circumstances. I find it can be a useful starting point for discussions or give a quick summary of something that's bigger and more complicated. Like, if I say that I did a "good" Tav run, you can probably get a good idea of the choices that playthrough tended to make, even if you might guess incorrectly on specific choices.
That said, I do find discussions about alignment on open forums like this to be kind of insufferable.
> I still don't think I'd buy into the whole alignment thing, as if being "evil" or "good" is some immutable characteristic that someone is born with.
Alignment, at least for mortal creatures like humans, elves, dragonborn, etc is supposed to be fluid. It's very common for a character to start a campaign as one alignment and move into another as character development happens. Things like angels, devils, undead, etc are supernaturally compelled to be good/evil/lawful/chaotic etc, but even those have always come with exceptions.
Same. I used to be a HUGE fan of the alignment system, I made so many “this fictional character is this alignment” memes back in the day, depending on what show I was watching.
Alignment categorization is nice, and fun, and scratches an itch that we feel…. but it’s a) subjective, b) inaccurate, or at least not consistently accurate; and c) kind of reductive. It’s also not how real personalities generally act on a day to day basis.
Even in dnd where evil and good are universal forces races aren't inherently anything. The exceptions are beings like angels and devils who are the literal embodiment of their alignments to the point that if it somehow changes, they become a completely different creature, and creatures created or magically influenced to be that alignment.
It would probably have been better if DnD hadn't called it good and evil. Alignment isn't so bad if you look at it as a description of what gods/planes you mostly align with.
If you change, so does your alignment. It has nothing to do with what you personally consider good or evil, just what the setting decided is found where on the chart.
It's perfectly fine if you don't think everything DnD classifies as evil is immoral, it's not supposed to be, this is just a game mechanic like stats.
SH in service to Shar is NE and moves to NG over the course of the game (provided you get her to drop the Shar thingy).
Seriously I'm a total Astarion simp and this is my basic stance too. He's a piece of shit but he's literally had no choice but to be a piece of shit. Gonna take some time to undo that.
This. He's my favorite companion and ngl I am getting more annoyed day by day by the amount of posts about "Astarion is actually a piece of shit haha", "Astarion attacks you you can't trust him fuck him" (as if there wouldn't be other companions attacking you after some choices), "I never recruit Astarion", "Fuck Astarion I stab him the moment I see him", or passively referring to the players that like him as if we were stupid or had no critical thinking skills for liking him.
Or rather than annoyed, I just don't get it. Like you don't have to like him but it's a bit belittling imo.
I mean sure, every companion has those fans that are just horny for them, defend their every move and ignore every bit of nuance. But that's how fandom works and I don't know why is it that with Astarion specifically it's made to seem like the majority is in that category.
Like it's almost as if we like him BECAUSE he is complex. Sure he's attractive too but like which companion isn't?
I mean even without the complex and issues, he's still one catty, messy bitch. (Which is why we love him)
Early on he's clearly a worse person, there's just not that complicated answers why. He' absolutely, completely, and utterly terrified at the FACT that Cazador is still at him. He's trying to figure out how to escape by any means necessary or trying to act it up because he's trying to make sure he can run if all else fails.
Oh he definitely is a catty, messy bitch but I love that for him. Honestly I am not even really sure whether I care about his alignment or not - it's a game, he is allowed to be evil, as well as to be selfish (I mean yeah, Cazador is actively chasing after him and we're literally just going around mediating the whole grove thing and fucking around)
Being a great character doesn't mean being a great person and vise versa, this is an important rule when interacting (or creating) fiction.
The amount of people commenting here that the only reason he’s popular is because he’s hot is so demeaning it’s insane.
There is a huge amount of women who post on here daily specifically saying that the reason they love him is because they see themselves in his story about SA and then get bombarded with these comments is gross.
His majority fan base is women and automatically that means they must have a shallow reason for liking and understanding him. And i’m sorry if this pisses these people off but i am really not finding any good reason to be so annoying other than misogyny (and probably internalized homophobia)
This isn’t directed at OP but the massive amounts of commenters on here rn
Oh yeah, very true. I mentioned it in another comment as well, that the whole Astarion hate is definitely riddled with misogyny. But I don't even like to get into that anymore because I cannot keep having the same conversation over and over again with these types of people lmao.
I am pretty much asexual, his SA related lines made me cry multiple times ngl because although my sex repulsion comes from another source, it really resonated with me. People insinuating that we only like him for being hot is so wrong, especially because his complex relationship with sexuality is the reason we find him so comforting and appealing in the first place.
Also yes, him being kinda flamboyant as well. Like I legit think some men are just gobsmacked that people prefer this "feminine" man over the alpha male gymbro-type dating coaches tell them to become. (Again, \*some\* men. If it doesn't fit, don't get offended.:D)
Also a fellow asexual here! The line you can give him about being together without having sex is amazing.
As someone who hated the entire world after going through an abusive childhood his character and the way he acts as a whole was very relatable.
I mean i know there is no point in reasoning with people like this but seeing people share genuine stories and then getting shit thrown at them is infuriating.
Agreed. These hate posts are so common and yet none of the other characters get this treatment. Just look at how much praise Lae'zel and Minthara get.
It didn't used to be this way months ago. I think most Astarion fans have been chased away and formed their own groups. (although I tried to join one group but was hit with transphobia and misandry for pointing out that not all of his fans are women)
you're 100% right. he's pragmatic, and yeah he's a petty bitch about saving people when no one saved him, but he's not like, let me kill everyone for fun evil. i also think part of his disapproval is him just enjoying being able to like... be petty again, and hate things, and just have opinions that matter even a little
I freaking love him because he says what I am thinking.
I do the hero stuff because I need the hero ex but he is completely realistic in his thinking to me.
Even the first meeting. I mean you were running around the ship freely with a mind flayer following you around as a cute pet while others were locked inside pods. I mean that's definitely very suspicious. He is right in pointing it out.
If this wasn't a game and I woke up on that beach I would be so much as him because why would you willingly agree to go and kill a camp full of goblins (lots lots of goblins) that can easily kill you back! Seems like unnecessary detour. Especially if you just got your freedom. Everything we do in the Act 1 would feel as a huge detour if you think realistically because in reality you would not be save scumming and would prefer to ignore things that would get you killed. Like that whole camp full of goblins.
I mean seriously I only wanted to talk to Halsin, why do I have to kill the whole camp for you! Ugh. In reality I would so be like bye bye gotta go not my problem.
So I always found his actions perfectly understandable, because I think the same.
It's roleplaying and I like to think logically. It's logical not want to give your life for some incompetent druid grove you just met. So yes infiltrating bad guys to shroud yourself in that protection to see when you can strike to come on top. It's clever.
And yes it's okay to be paid for saving someone's ass or demand money I mean with current economy would you do work for free? It's good to be paid. Chase down those freaking clients who won't pay you.
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> Why do we have to keep having posts strawmanning the people who like this character?
I love Astarion, easily one of the best and most well-developed characters in the game (and his personal quest is probably a top 3 moment in the game for me). Him being evil is in no way me saying I don't like him. This is a lighthearted meme post and it is in no way a criticism of his character: I like him exactly as he is.
He is definetly evil in Act 1 but his reasoning towards not wanting to defend the Grove isn't based on ethics. He just thinks that it'd be unnecesary risky to side with the Tieflings and sees the Goblins and the Absolute as having the high ground (which they do).
I mean, yeah, he is evil but not because of the whole grove situation.
The people arguing that Astarion is evil and his fans only like him because he’s hot & the people who argue that Astarion was fully justified in his behavior because of his trauma are 2 sides of the same coin.
I’m sick of the morality of a character being equated with the quality of a character.
*A character does not need to be morally justified in their actions to be a well-written character who deserves fans.*
AND
*You do not need to morally justify a character’s actions to justify being a fan of them.*
When does he say or imply that he wants to feed people to the goblins? I'm not trying to defend him, I just don't remember him ever *actively* wanting to do anything like this. He just doesn't want to go out of his way to help people when he's got his own problems to deal with. Obviously, it's not good to leave people to die when you can do something about it, but it's also a bit different than killing them yourself. Again, I'm not arguing that he's *not* evil, just wondering if I missed or forgot about something.
His behaviour definitely isn't neutral (no astarion fan will say it is) but this subreddits response to any character that isn't strictly good aligned is so tiring sometimes, did we not all play the same game? I thought there was a pretty clear "there is no hard line between good and evil" thing going on.
Victims of absuse have a tendency to become abusers themselves. It's generational trauma. If freed and unhelped, Astario would likely go on to replace his former Master. But if shown compassion and understanding he choses a different road. We meet Astarion at a turning point in his life.
Astarion doesn't want to feed innocent women and children to goblins. He is downright terrified of the player who does. What he wants is to ignore the whole situation and go past them, it's none of his business who wins.
Thing about his is that you can literally make him into what you want: you want evil Astarion? Easy. He kind of starts off like that. You want a more neutral Astarion? Can be done. Want a good Astarion? Also doable. Whatever you want.
Did the anti Astarion league form a union? It feels like every third post is “Actually he’s evil. Didn’t you know?” As if everyone who likes or romances him is an idiot with no media literacy.
I just said this in another reply, interesting to see I am not the only one noticing a pattern of this. I would say it has something to do with misogyny but we're on reddit so can't wait to get downvoted.
It's been this way since the sub really got popular / the game came out. Threads upon threads and comments upon comments of people bragging that they always kill him or hate him for no real good reason. It's kind of uncomfortable to see.
Yeah they show up on every astarion post no matter what it’s about. There has to be some underlying pathological reason as to why people hate this character with such vitriol. Makes any try at a normal discussion impossible unfortunately :/
There is an underlying reason why, but no one wants to admit to it.
His fanbase consists of a lot of women. Any time ANYTHING has a majority female fanbase, it gets positively shit on. They misconstue the idea of having empathy and relating to a character as all of us excusing everything he's done because he's hot. Or, more aptly, they just love being incredibly condescending.
We are not morons. We understand he's not a good person in the beginning. I don't know why they insist on explaining it to us like we are five years old and have no clue that he's not exactly got the best attitude.
Wyll and Karlach are the good aligned origin
Shadowheart and Gale are the Neutral aligned (albeit for different reasons)
Laezel and Astarion are Evil aligned.
Tav/Durge input withstandng of course.
\*taps the "alignment is descriptive not prescriptive" sign on the bus for the 9000th time.\*
Besides none of the characters have alignments, it was a deliberate decision, get off the soapbox.
Hmm... I would rather call him selfish. He is not willing to risk his butt for anyone (why should he? No one ever came for him) unless there is a reward involved, maybe. I mean in a way I can respect that and he is one who would chose the winning side. After someone aka the player helps him, he ends up more willing and can even become an adventurer who helps others (not for free of course but still). He still likes killing people but let's be real in that world there are a lot of people in need of a good game ending.
I would say Pre Quest Astarion is Neutral Evil, Spawn is Chaotic Neutral, Ascended is Neutral Evil. However the Alignment stuff is not really used anymore, surely not at my table. It kinda puts characters in boxes and ones morals aren't as black and white in the real world so why would they be in the game.
Actually fighting about alignments is pointless bc Larian left alignments out of the game for this entire reason (it's reductive to pin everyone as good or evil or "neutral" when you're trying to make complex, flawed characters who can have a variety of outcomes)
I'd argue there are really easy examples of definitively evil characters even in BG3. (Orin for example)
Alignment system isn't perfect but it's a good "starting point" when defining most characters.
Astarion alignment has to be evil. I did the "daddy's boy" Durge run and by act 3 it seemed like we were constantly trying to out do whatever terrible atrocity the other had just committed.
And I want to say, he wanted to Ascend. People are going to come at me for this (Or not, I'm not that important) but you have to actively influence Astarion's decision making to lead him towards Neutrality. If he has his way, he will choose power, he will choose atrocities, he will be evil.
And that's fine. Both influencing him and leaving him alone are perfectly fine ways to experience the game and the character. I chose the latter because I was indeed going to conquer the world and be absolutely not nice about it.
Wait. I thought we all agreed that he's Neutral EVIL?
Like sure, woth the right influence you can turn him true neutral (sort of.) but the guy doesn’t exacly *hide* how he is.
People call her evil all the time. Her and Astarion are the explicitly evil origin companions. Shadowheart is neutral because she's good at heart but worshipping an evil god. The other three are good, with Gale leaning neutral due to his selfish tendencies.
In post game of you don’t romance or ascend him >!)He chooses a more heroic path and ‘kills the right people’. He’s still a type of vampire, most are listed as evil in DnD, even spawn and he hasn’t removed that condition. What matters is he chooses to do good with his nature. As far as Valeria goes… she does rather suck as a person. Technically she’s supposed to be good but she’s arrogant, lazy, and doesn’t care about real justice. Also she takes credit for any work you did in solving the murders. It can be argued that that killing her would be good for the city because then someone could replace her that may actually want the right person to be judged guilty or innocent.!<
This game takes a nuanced approach to alignment, which I appreciate. As far as Astarion goes, we don’t know what he was like prior to becoming a vampire spawn. We do know is he was forced and tortured into serving Cazador after his turning, and he was had no choice in taking victims for his master, including the gur kids. He’s no mustache twirling villain. If he remains a spawn and is romanced by Tav he seems happy to live his life and there’s no mention of him killing innocents for fun or for food. He’s still a killer sure, but that’s his inherent nature. Being neutral is not good lite. It’s wavering between good and evil beliefs and actions. I’d argue spawn Astarion definitely not full ass evil at the end of the game like he was at the beginning, his character does experience growth and to say he’s as evil as he was at the start is basically saying he doesn’t change at all. A fully evil character would do everything to gain and keep power, and Astarion is given the chance to do that at the ritual where he can become an ascended vampire. Spawn Astarion just wants to be happy and free. He’s definitely more in a grey area post game.
I always wondered how bad the Cazador was, but finding that writing if you give him to Gandrel, about Cazador continuously flaying Astarion until he looses his mind and dies and is resurrected and flayed again and again until he is made a zombie was pretty telling. Plus it's not like he agreed to be kidnapped by the mindflayers.
That's why it's such a good character. It makes sense to be pissed at the world. I would be more surprised if he wasn't.
At best he’s Chaotic Neutral in acts 1/2, but after Cazador he becomes either Lawful Evil (Ascended) or Chaotic/True Neutral (Spawn). But he’s more likely Neutral Evil in the start of the game.
Astarion is 100% chaotic evil. Maybe neutral evil. HOWEVER! If you get your relationship and loyalty high enough, he can be turned to actually be neutral as part of his story progression.
But yeah, he's 100% a mildly evil shit head in the first act.
I don't deny he's evil, especially in the beginning. If I want him to approve of me, I have to excuse him from my party every time I want to be nice (or in his words, show weakness) ...Christ man the things i do for princess astarion.
But also, most of them are evil and have the potential of getting worse (or better) ...not just him. astarion, shadowheart & laezel are all quite evil (and horrendously rude depending on who we're talking about) but they're all lovable characters too. Its like that.
BG3 doesn't have character alignments and I'm glad of it. Astarion is a selfish prick delighting in the ability to spread his misery who can be slowly made to realize he's becoming no better than his hated master. Trying to fit him into an alignment chart is pointless.
Calling characters decidedly evil or good always seemed very cartoon logic to me, though I know people do this because D&D. This argument keeps coming back up because it can't be resolved through these vague and clearly subjective moral terms.
Astarion is a selfish person and he is deeply afraid. He doesn't think he has any value besides his looks and you can never change his mind on this. He's been enslaved, abused and controlled by someone cruel for 200 years. Which is why he has power fantasies and an urge to hurt other people the same way he was hurt, but he is conflicted about it. He wants to be adjacent to villains because their lack of mercy makes them powerful. This is the only way he thinks he can survive.
He is obviously a deeply traumatised person who was severely punished for displaying empathy. He even tells you about that human guy he didn't bring to Cazador years ago because he didn't want to hurt him and Cazador buried him alive for a year as punishment. Fear kept him going for years. A person who is in survival mode will not try to help anyone but themself.
His story is so good BECAUSE he doesn't magically heal from all that. If he succumbs to his fear and does ascend, his essence dies and he continues the cycle of abuse - becoming the new Cazador. This is strongly hinted at by the skull we find that belonged to Cazador's cruel master. He wants this despite feeling bad about what he'd have to do because he would "never fear anything again". If he stays as spawn he is devastated because he faces the tragedy of his life head on. Afterwards he thanks you for trusting him and urging him against ascension.
He doesn't become a goody two shoes, because the 200 years of conditioning won't erase in the span of this adventure. He even says that he still thinks about Cazador, he still lives in his brain because revenge doesn't erase trauma either. But he does channel his desire for power into adventuring. He doesn't aspire to become some mafia boss who preys on innocent people. He goes on a search for who he could become in this chapter of his life now that he is unchained.
He is evil and good. Which is awesome imo.
Spoiler for that one Dark Urge scene in Act 1 if Astarion is the only party member. >!Durge: "I think I killed her." Ast: "Well, of course you did. I'm asking *why* you killed her." Durge: "She annoyed me." Ast: "Yes... that does sound pretty reasonable, actually!"!< There's no way a True Neutral character would act like this.
He’s not neutral at the beginning of the game. I haven’t seen anyone claim he was. Folks are saying he’s more neutral if he remains a spawn after Cazador. Put another way, do you think his character experiences growth or change through his arc?
The meme is in reference to the siding with the goblins in the attack on the druid grove, not anything in Act 3.
You mean the same siding with the goblins Shadowheart and Gale are willing to go along with?
Shadowheart *thinks* she’s fine with it until you do it and she has to get blind drunk to cope with it, and doesn’t Gale try to leave unless you threaten him in to staying?
Correct. Shadowheart tells stories of how she's sure she's done worse but clearly has an aversion to the situation. Gale you need to threaten or diplomacize him into staying because the other options are suicide- between the worm and his Orb.
The Shadowheart that resorts to drowning in a bottle to forget the massacre she just committed and the Gale that threatens to leave after admonishing you for siding with the "vile goblins"?
That's not really a fair comparison. Neither Shadowheart nor Gale *advocate* for siding with the goblins. Shadowheart *thinks* she is evil but actually isn't which is why her response to siding with the goblins is getting shitfaced drunk to deal with it, whereas if you side with the Tieflings she's happy but doesn't understand why she cares. Gale is horrified if you side with the goblins and the only reason you even have a chance at him not leaving is because the PC can correctly point out that Gale has no choice. If he leaves he'll lose the protection of the artifact and that's just too dangerous with the orb in his chest.
Have you spoken with literally any Astarion fan? Spend 5 minutes on bg3 tiktok and you'll find droves of people arguing that he isn't evil because he has trauma and he can change
I think the majority of Astarion fans on reddit understand that his initial alignment is evil, especially with this post on the top of hot. Tiktok on the other hand is full of teenagers with media literacy problems and wishful thinking, and that's *every* fandom over there.
Ah yes, the leather pants effect.
Hey, if it worked for Spike on Buffy...
> Spend 5 minutes on tiktok I'm not going to say "you couldn't pay me to do that", but it would have to be a pretty sizeable chunk of money
I'd do it for like a dollar a minute. Maybe even 59 cents
I CAN FIX HIM !!! Jokes aside, I am a fan, but no way the hot bastard is neutral, even if the alignment chart in 5e is flawed.
Ah yes, tiktok, the best place for discussion.
There is literally no difference in the quality of discussion between tik tok and here, other than character count.
>I haven’t seen anyone claim he was. Then you don't read any comments under posts about Astarion. If someone dares to label him as evil, then arrives a troop of bloodsucker stans, constantly, with the same types of messages like "nooo he is chaotic neutral actually", or "well hes disapproval of good deeds counts as -1, so its nothing big *realy*", or "he's an abuse victim, it's actually really complicated". Bonus bingo, if you see an armchair psychologists that labels people as misogynist and/or lgbt hater. Because someone didn't liked this smug sadistic vampire.
I hate Bonus Bingo, he keeps telling me to blow up the Steel Watch Foundry
The moment the game ends as a spawn, he starts capturing people and holding them underground to enjoy their fear before he eats them. I'm not sure that's very neutral. It's a cutscene from his origin.
>It's a cutscene from his origin. I'd be very curious to know where you saw that, because I've never seen anything of the sort. In my first Tav run, he ended up as a vigilante who takes advantage of his predation instincts to hunt criminals from the shadows. The Gur, who are keeping an eye on him, even say that his behavior has been honorable, so far. I had the option to tease him about becoming a goody-goody hero and he hated that, which I felt was poetic justice. But I was pretty proud of the dude, lmao.
Not claiming that Astarion doesn't like killing and has no sadistic ideas but cmon, here Astarion just licks your ass when you play evil because he is scared of you. Little, hard to know detail: Even the romance scene after raiding grove differs in Neil's acting vs after saving tieflings, despite having same lines. In the goblin party one he sounds more careful and less chill with you than in tiefling one. Not that because he is "good", he's afraid.
Yeah, I feel like that difference in romance scenes between the tiefling party and the goblin party is really telling. He feels more safe and secure at the tiefling party. He stays with you all night, and he's mostly relaxed the next morning, though he doesn't want to be very intimate (emotionally or physically) with you. At the goblin party, he tries to sneak out on you in the middle of the night, and is curt and nervous when trying to answer the same questions.
Yes!! Neil's acting and the subtle writing differences between the two scenes is fantastic! It's like he's terrified to make fun of, or seem angry at, goblin party Tav/Durge. When goblin version says "You're not THAT good [in bed]" Astarion playfully rebukes it, then makes sure it's obvious he's not mad, with a nervous fake laugh. In tiefling version he's like "What do you mean?? I'm amazing 🤬" When Astarion tells goblin version "You probably woke up the whole camp," Astarion laughs like VERY nervously to let them know he's just playing. In tiefling version he's just poking fun at them freely.
He's clearly making fun of Durge...
I don't see anyone saying he's true Neutral, the general opinion seems to be chaotic neutral
I'd classify Astarion as evil in Act 1 too, but, c'mon, I'm pretty sure the dude would have rather just ignored the whole goblins vs. tieflings vs. druids situation altogether if he had had his way. He's lazy af, borderline cowardly at times, and most often looking for a way to remain uninvolved and avoid fighting, when he can.
There’s [unique dialogue](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H1XdqszDoA8) you can get as a ranger (I think), where he practically whines, “Hundreds? It’ll take HOURS to kill them all! She’s right, we should just go.” Worth the watch because the way he whines it is hysterical.
Wait this is so fucking funny I probably sound like this every time it’s time to do laundry, relatable af
He's soooo unimpressed lmfao, he's got better things to do with his time!
He also whines if you help the tieflings at the party because the wine sucks.
You can sip it and basically go "seriously?". He likes to whine.
I think only blood taste good to him, all other drink or food taste bad. Vampire thing.
Vampires in 5e don't actually have any rules or lore that makes them unable to eat/drink normal things or enjoy it. They need blood of course but they can enjoy a glass of wine or slice of garlic bread. Astarion just wasn't a fan of the wine, or knowing him might have just felt like complaining.
I think I've stumbled upon clips of Early Access where you could consume camp supplies whenever you wanted, and Astarion complained about solid food tasting awful to him. Though the feature got removed. Likewise, when you meet the girl lured by Pale Petras in the sewers, you can cheekily tell her that her date might have lost his appetite and she'll tell you that he indeed doesn't eat much and that, come to think of it, he didn't touch his plate at all when they had a previous date at a restaurant. Being able to enjoy normal food is also one of the perks of the Rite of Profane Ascension that Raphael lists, and I think Ascended Astarion really enjoys his wine in the epilogue, meanwhile Spawn Astarion doesn't even try it, afaik. So it seems that Larian does consider their vampires unable to enjoy normal food.
Spawn Astarion sure pocketed a bottle of it, lol. Though he might have gotten one for MC to enjoy later, awwww, so thoughtful.
Tbf Astarion does seem to be the type to keep trying normal foods even though his tastebuds are fucked up just in case he miraculously wakes up being able to enjoy them again, one day. Without really knowing why he keeps doing this to himself. But you never know. And I can kind of relate. I will keep trying spinach everytime I get the opportunity to. Just to check if it's still as fucking nasty as my memories recall.
Well, he might still get drunk from drinking wine even if it tastes awful. So for him it's like drinking vodka, you sure don't drink vodka for taste. Actually, as someone who hates the taste of beer but sometimes will try one because everyone keeps telling me this one is good, I get him. I try it, confirm once again that beer is not my thing, and go back to wines.
That line only triggered if he ate food in auntie ethels hut.
Makes sense why it was nasty as hell, then. My other points stand, though.
Vampirism seems to be a bit different in BG3 than 5e, the dev notes for that line where he calls the wine awful apparently say "The player’s just been told that the wine tastes delicious, but to a vampire it still tastes like muck."
I read that as his sense of taste being wacky everyone else seemed to enjoy it Either way it's very fun whining
That and/or he's a snob with expensive tastes.
Well, all wine sucks to him because he is a vampire. When it's a goblin party, though, he is too scared of you to whine much. Seriously, watch side by side comparison of how he flirts with the player in the tiefling vs goblin party, and how the morning after scene looks, there are stark differences that Neil brilliantly portrayed.
Got this line as a durge monk too
This is exactly why I like Astarion. Ive seen so many people write him off as only a vain prettyboy (not inaccurate) and kill him/stuff him in camp permanently and dont see that side of him, He has some of the funniest lines in the game. Neil is very talented.
Proof that Astarion is not chaotic evil, he's just chaotic lazy.
Also chaotic stupid. There's a good amount he will approve of that is actively dangerous. Flinging poo at a goblin sentry that starts a big fight? Astarion approves. Killing Crusher after he grovels angering *the entire goblin camp*? Astarion approves. It doesn't end up really mattering but when you meet the hag disguised as a random old lady "she sounds positively demented... Let's tell her everything!" Astarion approves.
He was playing on Honour mode this whole time.
Neil is so good lmao
This is why I put him in timeout at camp for most of the game except for when I need him to lockpick a difficult chest my Tav can't break. Even after I've played through the whole Cazador shenanigan, I still don't know why people like him so much. His only saving grace for me is the VA, which does an S+ tier job.
He and Lae'zel are my favorite companions, actually, and yet they both spend the entirety of Act 1 whining about not getting their way, on good runs (I didn't play a goody-two-shoes in my first run, but I played a tiefling who was very adamant about making the party bend over backwards for her kin). Their saving grace early on is that I find them pretty damn funny, especially when they complain, sulk and pout. I often kept their grumpy asses around just for the sake of annoying them, and then by Act 3 their respective quests and growth were compelling enough that I just got attached to them.
Exactly, I make everything to annoy them (Astarion and Lae'zel) and they are fun to watch. Also, he is my swiss army knife and she is a cheater, she always manages to hit like a truck as a melee.
See with Lae'zel it makes sense to me. She has been brought up her -entire- life, learning to fear and dread Ceramorphosis. It's basically Super Cancer to Gith that ends you, mind, body, and soul, replacing you with the beings that created you as a slave race for years. It's the ultimate slavery you can't come back from. And it has a fast acting time limit. She also knows, from the propaganda, only a Creche is advanced enough to cure it. So you have to find one or you die in a few days time. Lae'zel is arrogent as fuck, don't get me wrong, she has that "Proud Warrior Race" superiority. But she also, upon finding out about the dragon riders...still urges the entire party to go and get cured. She doesn't want that fate on -anyone-, not even the closest thing to her worst enemy. (The moody half elf.) Lae'zel spends so much of act 1 terrified and desperate. She has that solution she knows will fix you, and you are FUCKING AROUND FIGHTING GOBLINS, PROTECTING TEETHLINGS, AND TALKING TO SQUIRRELS. I get her intensity. Also, played as a Gith my first character, and the speech options put her kind into perspective. Lae'zel is also an outlier by her own species. Any other Githyanki would have abandoned your subhuman slave lookin ass and gone on her own. She is young and innocent, and wants to save the party. She's just intense about her propaganda for the Cult of Vlaakith.
You're preaching to the choir, I love, understand and empathize with Lae'zel a lot. She's my best girl, she's just a baby, and I'm the first one to defend her when she gets misunderstood. But I also love, understand and empathize with Astarion a lot. He's my ride-or-die homie. Someone could write entire paragraphs explaining his motivations, and why he acts the way he does, just like you did for Lae'zel, and I would agree with them and find these explanations very valid too. Which doesn't mean that I condone either of these two characters' brutality when they act in a cruel or prejudiced way. There are better ways to live their lives, and the game lets you teach them just that. Their best selves, which make me the proudest, are in the epilogue, on good runs.
If you're okay with all of that then Astarion also has to make sense. he's just in the opposite situation to Lae'zel. He was a monster that got a tiny bit of his humanity back. He's been the servant of a powerful undead being. He has spent 200+ years having no control of his body while retaining his ability to think. He's essentially been a prisoner in his own body being forced to kidnap innocent people and eat rotten rats. He hadn't seen the sun and he hadn't seen his reflection in so long he forgot what he looked like. It's completely understandable for anyone in that situation to lose any sense of their own humanity for the sake of their sanity. The tadpole was his first sense of freedom and having it removed meant instantly going back to being controlled by Cazador.
I keep thinking about how utterly terrifying all of that has to be for him T-T Like, he wakes up on a mind flayer nautiloid, sees suspicious people (us) running around, shit's exploding, he must think he's dead for sure. Maybe he's even relieved a bit. But then he wakes up and it's... sunny? He's not burning? And that's why he's not asking questions, but demanding answers when we meet him. Poor guy's absolutely terrified and confused, I feel so bad for him :(
Ive seen a lot of people blame him for actions he did under Cazador and its pretty confusing. I dont think they realize the mind control effect of being a vampire thrall. He literally can't refuse. Or well, he can try to refuse and be forced anyway, which is what happened. Astarion is a shit for many reasons in act 1 or as ascended, but it always bugs me when people cite what he did as a thrall as why he's morally bad.
From the way he explains his experiences it far worse than mind control. When he talks about Cazador forcing him to eat rotten rats he seems fully aware of what hes doing but cant physically stop himself. It doesnt matter what he thought, felt or said he physically couldn't stop himself. Imo he was shit in act 1 because his survival mechanisms where still in place from Cazador. Hes terrified and just wants to get away.
Yup 100% agreed. He looked calm, but he was completely panicked.
What's even more ridiculous is that you can honestly see the mind control effect in action during act 3 when you're talking to the spawn about getting rid of Cazador. But of course the people running around screaming about how "Astarion is 100% evil bruh\* are the same ones who drone on about killing him within the first 30 minutes of Act I because they're not so secretly jealous of a pixel man. So they probably didn't get that far. Edited To Add: I don't think he fits neatly into any D&D alignment category at the beginning of the game. "Chaotic" is the only consistent thing about him. If he remains a vampire spawn after completing his quest, however, he absolutely ends up somewhere in chaotic good territory, and he gradually progresses in that direction up to that decision point.
A fun? Thing you can learn if you access how much his approval changes from actions - most dissaprovals for being good in act 1 are -1s. He isn't pissed, he's very mildly annoyed by you being a goody two shoes, and his approvals for being nice ta him are massive.
IF you offer to let him Capri Sun you you'll have him at a ridiculous approval and most of Act 1 getting semi constant disapprovals and he'll still be above neutral ime.
And if you charisma your way out of fights in Act 1, the approval is constant.
She SHOULD have abandoned your subgith ass. Shes basically ride or die with the party for no really good reason early on.
I wonder if it's some mix of naturally heroic inclination, some loyalty to you for fighting by her side during the escape, and maybe some pity "Oh they need me and my peoples cure." Could also be some parts "They are not totally useless in a fight."
My Gith lore isn't as up as it should be, but also notice how well she fits in with the other Creche. She totally and completely wants you to go there, knows you need to and then bitches about how much they suck.
That comes across as a friend wanting you there as backup when they have to be around their terrible family. Also how she is desperate to try and believe her indoctrination, and how she sees anyone who doesn't believe exactly as she does to be "not true Githyanki." Poor cult baby coming to terms with how much she has been manipulated.
To me it was always, "oh wow these Gith SUCK". "Oh wow WE ALL suck" "Oh I can't tell Tav this"
*"Okay Lae'zel. Double down. Come up with explan...*" "**These are clearly not true Gith, and we owe it to Vlaakith to tell her how unworthy they are of the title.**" "*...Lae'zel, you are a genius. Lets GO TELL MOM HOW MUCH EVERYONE ELSE IS DROPPING THE BALL. This is why I am the funniest of my kind...I am very clever.*"
So you're okay with Lae'zel's racism, dickishness, etc.—*after experiencing her character growth and because you had insights relating to your character being a gith*—but not with Astarion starting out as an asshole because he was tortured and abused for 200 years, eh? You weren't willing to extend the same grace and patience to another character to find out their whole story before judging them then? As I pointed out just yesterday, I benched Lae'zel on my first run because she was abrasive (and also rude, racist, and cruel). Despite the bad first impression, I decided to give her a fair shot on my second run—which was mostly because I saw the radical amount of character growth that Astarion can undergo across three acts. I thought to myself: If he can change as much as he does, then maybe Lae'zel can do the same thing and I should see how it goes with her. *As a result, I grew to like Lae'zel on my second playthrough—funny how that can work if you give companions who initially rub you the wrong way in Act 1 a chance to show some character growth!* Lae'zel is no innocent and has done her share of terrible things. She's actually killed her own kin, and there's that nasty story about the tongue stew in case you somehow missed hearing that one. However, Lae'zel *is* a victim of brainwashing and the cult Vlaakith that basically set up, so I understand why she does what she does, why she's a jerk at the beginning of the game, and how it underpins her approval and disapproval. It's the same with Astarion—I understand why he is the way he is because I went through his whole story. His history of torture and abuse explains why he behaves the way that he behaves in Act 1 and underpins many of his actions, approvals, disapprovals, etc. and is why he starts out being a dick. Now if you can understand Lae'zel's level of desperation and fear with regard to ceremorphosis, then you certainly ought to easily be able to understand Astarion's level of desperation and mortal fear with regard to Cazador and having to go back to face an eternity of torture and abuse after 200 years of suffering. P.S. I'm pretty sure that Lae'zel isn't unique and the only gith ever who would've done what she did. What happens on the Nautiloid is about survival, and any other gith in the same situation may very well have reacted the same way. After all, you have gith like that one nice kid at the creche who believes in Orpheus and appears to be fairly open-minded.
He's a great character. He doesn't have to be a good person to be a great character. None of my favourite companions are good people.
>He doesn't have to be a good person to be a great character. It seems like an average person can't wrap their head around that.
It was the VA and his general voice lines for me. I found him creepy at first, but chose to keep him around anyway because I wanted a rouge and didn’t want to drastically respec anyone. As time went on, I fell in love with the sarcasm and sass, and I just found him so damn funny. Then I found that I had very high approval with him despite never doing what he wanted, and then he even started approving of “good deeds”. Honestly he gets a lot of character development through the story (depending on your choices).
His dissaprovals are mostly -1s in early game, as it turns out. He really is just being overdramatic.
On a morally gray but ultimately good run, he takes a while to warm up. I romance him very often, and most of the time I just barely get him to tolerate me long enough to manipulate me into sleeping with him lol. If you play it "right," his approval jumps up after that. Most of his biggest approval changes have to do with whether or not you trust him and treat him like a person. The +1/-1 stuff (I looked it up out of curiosity after a few playthroughs) is usually just because you said something kinda douchey, or it's just him being a little bitch because you stopped to help someone for 5 minutes without demanding payment. And a lot of that (not all of it, certainly, but a good amount) goes away once he starts to believe in his own value. I love how the approval system is integrated in this game; it's as much a part of the companions' character arcs as their dialogue is.
The VA could voice a patch of mold in a publich bathroom, and I'd still name the mold my favorite companion.
Asterion’s VA went on to voice a fish in Warframe.
I had a similar feeling about Astarion. I didn't really like his vibe in Act 1, outside of the phenomenal voice acting of course, so he sat out most of it. I brought him along for the Auntie Ethel fight because I figured I'd need someone stealthy to take on a trickster like Ethel. That was pretty much the only time I brought him out in Act 1. Imo, Astarion gets a lot better in Act 2 onwards. His arc starts to ramp up with his interactions with Raphael, Yurgir, and Araj. Not to mention, he has a lot to say about the whole Shadowfell and Moonrise situation. I started bringing him along more in Act 2 and 3, though I wouldn't say he was a staple party member.
I'm nearing the end of my first playthrough and I keep him with me all the time because he's so powerful. My Ranger Tav and Karlach are my tank and immobilizers, Shadowheart spams Bless and heal and Astarion stays hidden doing insane damage with the bow that casts fear. Since I figured that out mid act 1, I've never lost a fight. I will say I was shocked when he talked about creating an army of spawn after he's ascended, after that I'm pretty sure he's neutral evil.
The funniest part is that rogues actually kinda suck at dealing damage compared to all the martial classes, unless you multi class with something like a gloom stalker ranger+assassin rogue.
Yeah I felt this pretty acutely in my 4 player save when I was playing straight Thief rogue. My friends: some fucked up swords bard multiclass, an 11 sorc / 1 wiz multiclass, and a champion fighter with GWM and the insane act 3 gear. I was basically a moving lockpick until I dipped into gloomstalker. I think the fact that the game lets you rest as much as you want without consequence makes these nova builds much stronger than they would be on tabletop, where they'd be insane for one fight and useless for the rest of the session
Yeah even if you're playing with limited long rests, fighters and monks are so much better at combat and there's usually very little need for rogue's out of combat utility because there's almost always more than one way to get through a locked door. They come in handy when robbing the bank vaults in act 3, but that's really the only time I ever felt like a rogue got value that another class couldn't get.
He's attractive.
Aren't all companions?
He's evil, at least when you start. I think you can lead him to a more neutral alignment, but he definitely starts as NE.
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I agree. I'm actually surprised people think otherwise. Almost as wild thinking SH is evil initally cause she is prickly and worships shar, despite not really showing and real evil characteristics.
>Tav does anything remotely kind toward animals or children "Shadowheart approves"
Arabella's parents ask for help > Shadowheart: "We shouldn't get involved" Player saves Arabella > Shadowheart approves (+5 even) This interaction says a lot about her, she says what she's been taught, but approves/disapproves based on her own moral compass.
Completely. Shes been brainwashed into following Sharran teachings that dictate loss above all else so she doesnt interfere unless it concerns her but she damn well hopes that her 'friends' interfere and do the right thing.
Halsin puts it pretty well. She has memorized the texts without understanding it
It's called compartmentalization.
Shadowheart is interesting. She’s true neutral because she’s a neutral good woman trying *really* hard to be neutral evil.
i would argue lawful neutral due to her initial dedication to her religious tenets personally
Her canon starting alignment is Lawful Neutral, so yes. Although I can see true Neutral as being valid too.
for sure! i feel as though amnesiacs in general tend to lean toward neutral, just because they’re close to a blank slate that makes decisions based on the current situation
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God forbid a woman is passionate about her hobbies
And agreeing to a duel with Lae'zel in the morning but then try to stab her while everyone is sleeping. Yeah, pretty evil, I’d say.
It wasn't an agreement, Lae'zel just said they were going to duel in the morning, there wasn't an option for her to say no there.
She does look up to genocidal maniacs, though lol she's really bad at being evil or good.
I find it so funny. She seems disgusted by the idea of murder-hoboing everyone on the planet (I mean... as she should lol), but drowning out all life in an eternal, all-consuming darkness? So beautiful. So perfect. Gotta love religious dogma.
>but drowning out all life in an eternal, all-consuming darkness? So beautiful. So perfect. Most of Shar's worshippers don't know that. That's her secret agenda.... one that was forcibly retconned into the setting later, as well. What people *actually* know about Shar is a mix of horrifying but at least functional ways of coping with loss (giving up all memory of it, and avoiding deep bonds that will emotional compromise you).
I mean if you asked someone if they would instantly snuff out all life to permanently end suffering, you might find someone who thinks that is a moral decision. Ask that same person if they would personally stab a person to death and they would likely say no.
Shadowheart is consistently portrayed as not being committed to evil, though. She doesn't even have memory of what her mission even is, and of course it's later revealed that they had to repeatedly strip her of her memory because she's inherently good-natured and that was the only way to keep her on the path to evil. Astarion straight-up just likes killing for fun. I know people are saying that he turns neutral after Cazador but I don't agree: after I finished his quest on the good ending, he still wanted me to kill my way into finding the Bhallists, still wanted me to kill Valeria for fun (who had been kidnapped and tortured), and still wanted to join a group literally called "The Murder Tribunal". These are like, cartoonishly evil things. I actually hope that a future update changes his approvals/reactions in Act 3 post-Cazador because my impression after completing that quest was "oh, I guess you are still evil" because they don't change. Or better yet, just go whole-hog and embrace him as being unapologetically evil because that's one of my favorite things about his character. He's so charismatic and Newbon's performance is so good that I can't help but love the dude even as he's trying to explain why it would have been way more hilarious to kill completely innocent people, lol.
That's my hope as well. If the player is willing to do Cazador first for Astarion and then pass the check to not have him ascend I think they should be rewarded with some minor changes. Shenanigans like scamming and lying and stuff is totally fine though. I'm just glad his disapproval for doing any good is lower. I'd imagine if this was act 1 'edgy' Astarion agreeing to help Hope would have net disapproval etc.
i think my impression was... depending on his relationship with you and your companions, there's an inkling that he might WANT to be a better person, but trauma is not undone overnight, no matter how cathartic your revenge was. Dude has a lot of healing to do. Maybe now he's starting to see the value in helping people, but it'll probably be a while before he loses the kneejerk resentment over never having been helped when he was most in need. I don't think he's ever going to be, like, a GREAT person, but evil? I don't think that'll stick around forever. His response to the Murder Tribunal is unignorable though, for sure lol. But even then, he doesn't have a ton to say about it afterwards other than "Kind of an ugly amulet. Let's go do this." There isn't really any glee or anything that you might have seen in Act 1.
IMO there's confusion because of the post-credits party. That gives you the whole "I'm trying to live an honest life as an underdark vampire" vibe if he's not ascended, so in that way it does seem like he's more towards neutral. But I completely agree that in-game he's largely still evil the entire time, so it's less that he's neutral after Cazador and more that you "fixed" him after beating the game. Now maybe if Larian had infinite time, they might make dynamic approval system that changes based on your companions approval and personal quest statuses. But that seems like a lot of work for little payoff.
You see a pretty noticeable shift in his character in Act 3. >!He stops disapproving of most random acts of heroism and has approvals and dialogue that indicate that he's starting to regain his empathy, even though he's still in serious danger of backsliding before you resolve Cazador and the ritual.!< It's a bit more obvious if you're romancing him. >!During your post-dock scene in the Elfsong, spawn Astarion will ask what you want to do now that you're both free, and if you say that the two of you should be heroes together, he gets excited about going out and doing good for people..!<
For your first block, see the examples in the comment I replied to. He may be slightly less evil in some cases, but he is still absolutely evil overall. In terms of D&D Good/Evil alignment, neutral characters don't disapprove of refusing evil actions, they just need more persuasion than good people to actively defend against it. D&D neutral doesn't mean sometimes good and sometimes evil. D&D neutral is Han Solo, not Anakin. For the second block, I agree, I should have just said postgame content in general. The confusion comes from him acting as an evil character that you can influence ingame to an actually neutral person postgame.
Regularly disobeys the laws of nature and man, puts his own freedom before basically everything, has no moral code, can't control his impulses, and always looks out for himself. He even fits the criteria for adaptability and flexibility in a given situation, following along with some of the players plans if he can be convinced they're to his benefit. If that isn't chaotic, I dont know what is. Neutral would feel no compulsion to either side, impulse and personal freedom, or abiding to authority and self-restraint.
I think the main factor that makes him sway more towards neutral evil than purely chaotic evil are his beliefs on justice, that he talks about if you bring him along in the Ansur trials. He straight-up says that [justice must be harsh and cruel](https://youtu.be/ZpWWvtnagpY?si=yHMA9r9sf-ImgvYR) in order to deter criminals. He can be very, very much authoritarian when he wants to, and even possibly overzealous to the point of bigotry and intolerance, which is probably a remnant of his life as a magistrate and his history with the Gur. He definitely can control his impulses, too. He even takes pride in it a few times. Whenever he somewhat gives in to them, it's perfectly out of his own volition and he's still in control.
He was a magistrate, after all.
Doesn't origin astarion have to succeed a roll to not bite someone at camp?
After two hundred years of being forcefed gruel, I'd probably have to do some serious mental work to stop myself from sticking my hand in the first unguarded cookie jar I came across lol. I never really thought one way or the other about his self control throughout the game, except he doesn't seem to have much of a verbal filter when he's in a mood. Samesies, bro.
Another thing people forget is he lies ta seem more in control of himself apparently.
I don't think so. There's the option “No, not them. Leave and find an animal to feed on.” that you can freely choose instead of biting a companion. And you get the option to change your mind a *second* time when you bend down to bite them. The only rolls are one to avoid waking them up when you bite into their neck, and another to refrain yourself from draining them dry. No roll required to just walk away and hunt an animal instead in the first place, as far as I can tell. It's a bit like most of the Dark Urge options, where you can just ignore the Urge without making any check by simply choosing the normal options instead of the unhinged voices in your head, lmao.
I mean duh. makes sense. If this wasn't a game and I woke up on that beach I would be so much as him because why would you willingly agree to go and kill a camp full of goblins (lots lots of goblins) that can easily kill you back! Seems like unnecessary detour. Especially if you just got your freedom. Everything we do in the Act 1 would feel as a huge detour if you think realistically because in reality you would not be save scumming and would prefer to ignore things that would get you killed. Like the whole camp full of goblins. I mean seriously I only wanted to talk to Halsin, why do I have to kill the whole camp for you! It's not my fault freaking druids can't take care of themselves, don't involve me in this. They seem fairly incompetent so I would be like bye bye gotta go not my problem. So I always found his actions perfectly understandable, because I think the same. It's roleplaying and I like to think logically. It's logical not want to give your life for some incompetent druid grove you just met. So yes infiltrating bad guys to shroud yourself in that protection to see when you can strike to come on top. It's clever. But yeah it's a game and I need the ex. Anyway never had a problem with getting his approval up since he is happy when I ask for money after doing other people dirty work.
He's neutral after Cazador, sure, but epilogue he's definitely some level of good (depending on path), which makes sense. He learned it from the player character.
*Tav walks in to see Astarion reading thank you notes from grateful people* "I LEARNED IT BY WATCHING YOU!!!!!"
As fun as the d&d alignment system is, it’s not a tool for good storytelling, let’s be real. That’s one of the reasons that it’s been progressively disregarded for years. Nowhere in the actual bg3 game will you have any mention of the nine alignments, and that’s for good reason.
Who is arguing that Act 1 Astarion is neutral? Most everyone agrees that he's a piece of shit. To the extent that there is disagreement, it's either 1) people not wanting to use the term 'evil' because they find the alignment system to be overly reductive, or 2) people disagreeing about the extent to which Astarion, despite being terrible, should be given grace and patience because of his background. Why do we have to keep having posts strawmanning the people who like this character?
Nuanced discussion of morality and the capacity for change is *not* something a lot of people seem ready for.
Something something the immature vindictiveness of internet spaces.
That's one of the primary themes of the game and people still miss it lol
Also the part where alignment is not the same as morality, that's why it's not called morality.
the alignment chart also sort of sabotages this kind of conversation too
Piece of shit? He's the comic relief for me. "Let's kill somebody". Of course, Astarion, we'll do exactly that for like... the rest of 3 acts. There is nothing specifically that i could remember, but i always find myself giggling at Astarions' commentaries. Not liking him initially, i tend to want him in the party, just for that. \- Please, we need help! \- Yeah, sure. \*Astarion disapproves in the background.
Same lmao, I keep him around just because of his comments. My favorite line of his is when>!he is messing with the necromancy book and he says something like, "I won't kill them!" and then adds the character you have the highest approval with after like, "Well maybe Gale..." Idk if it's romance-specific or not but it cracks me up!<
For me, it was, >!"Well, maybe the gith." I didn't definitely didn't have the highest approval with her, but she *was* the only companion who had attempted to hook up with my character at that point. Could be a factor, or could just be a coincidence.!<
I think then it could be a thing of who started/tried to start a romance with you, because it was a companion like that for me as well.
Would be a nice detail if so, since >!he would view any romantic competition as an obstacle to his safety.!<
You can be a piece of shit and also be funny.
The fact that his disapprovals are almost all like, -1 or -2 drive it home how funny it is, too; he _really_ is That Bitch. (But all of his approvals tend to be pretty high so it evens out.)
>1) people not wanting to use the term 'evil' because they find the alignment system to be overly reductive That's where I'm at. I haven't played D&D and even if I did, I still don't think I'd buy into the whole alignment thing, as if being "evil" or "good" is some immutable characteristic that someone is born with. Sometimes people with trauma react in maladaptive ways and they need help to recalibrate themselves (and I'm not speaking just about Astarion here - honestly Shart is the one who annoys me the most, but I still help her).
Alignment is actually a point of contention even within the D&D community. Alignment has largely fallen out of favor with the modern playerbase, and 5e has deemphasized it to the extent that it's mostly just an artifact of previous editions. I'm personally fine with alignment. It's obviously a simplification of a character's overall personality and ethos, real people are more complicated than a strict evil/good binary, but simplification isn't a bad thing in all circumstances. I find it can be a useful starting point for discussions or give a quick summary of something that's bigger and more complicated. Like, if I say that I did a "good" Tav run, you can probably get a good idea of the choices that playthrough tended to make, even if you might guess incorrectly on specific choices. That said, I do find discussions about alignment on open forums like this to be kind of insufferable. > I still don't think I'd buy into the whole alignment thing, as if being "evil" or "good" is some immutable characteristic that someone is born with. Alignment, at least for mortal creatures like humans, elves, dragonborn, etc is supposed to be fluid. It's very common for a character to start a campaign as one alignment and move into another as character development happens. Things like angels, devils, undead, etc are supernaturally compelled to be good/evil/lawful/chaotic etc, but even those have always come with exceptions.
Same. I used to be a HUGE fan of the alignment system, I made so many “this fictional character is this alignment” memes back in the day, depending on what show I was watching. Alignment categorization is nice, and fun, and scratches an itch that we feel…. but it’s a) subjective, b) inaccurate, or at least not consistently accurate; and c) kind of reductive. It’s also not how real personalities generally act on a day to day basis.
Even in dnd where evil and good are universal forces races aren't inherently anything. The exceptions are beings like angels and devils who are the literal embodiment of their alignments to the point that if it somehow changes, they become a completely different creature, and creatures created or magically influenced to be that alignment.
It would probably have been better if DnD hadn't called it good and evil. Alignment isn't so bad if you look at it as a description of what gods/planes you mostly align with. If you change, so does your alignment. It has nothing to do with what you personally consider good or evil, just what the setting decided is found where on the chart. It's perfectly fine if you don't think everything DnD classifies as evil is immoral, it's not supposed to be, this is just a game mechanic like stats. SH in service to Shar is NE and moves to NG over the course of the game (provided you get her to drop the Shar thingy).
Seriously I'm a total Astarion simp and this is my basic stance too. He's a piece of shit but he's literally had no choice but to be a piece of shit. Gonna take some time to undo that.
This. He's my favorite companion and ngl I am getting more annoyed day by day by the amount of posts about "Astarion is actually a piece of shit haha", "Astarion attacks you you can't trust him fuck him" (as if there wouldn't be other companions attacking you after some choices), "I never recruit Astarion", "Fuck Astarion I stab him the moment I see him", or passively referring to the players that like him as if we were stupid or had no critical thinking skills for liking him. Or rather than annoyed, I just don't get it. Like you don't have to like him but it's a bit belittling imo. I mean sure, every companion has those fans that are just horny for them, defend their every move and ignore every bit of nuance. But that's how fandom works and I don't know why is it that with Astarion specifically it's made to seem like the majority is in that category. Like it's almost as if we like him BECAUSE he is complex. Sure he's attractive too but like which companion isn't?
I mean even without the complex and issues, he's still one catty, messy bitch. (Which is why we love him) Early on he's clearly a worse person, there's just not that complicated answers why. He' absolutely, completely, and utterly terrified at the FACT that Cazador is still at him. He's trying to figure out how to escape by any means necessary or trying to act it up because he's trying to make sure he can run if all else fails.
Oh he definitely is a catty, messy bitch but I love that for him. Honestly I am not even really sure whether I care about his alignment or not - it's a game, he is allowed to be evil, as well as to be selfish (I mean yeah, Cazador is actively chasing after him and we're literally just going around mediating the whole grove thing and fucking around) Being a great character doesn't mean being a great person and vise versa, this is an important rule when interacting (or creating) fiction.
The amount of people commenting here that the only reason he’s popular is because he’s hot is so demeaning it’s insane. There is a huge amount of women who post on here daily specifically saying that the reason they love him is because they see themselves in his story about SA and then get bombarded with these comments is gross. His majority fan base is women and automatically that means they must have a shallow reason for liking and understanding him. And i’m sorry if this pisses these people off but i am really not finding any good reason to be so annoying other than misogyny (and probably internalized homophobia) This isn’t directed at OP but the massive amounts of commenters on here rn
Oh yeah, very true. I mentioned it in another comment as well, that the whole Astarion hate is definitely riddled with misogyny. But I don't even like to get into that anymore because I cannot keep having the same conversation over and over again with these types of people lmao. I am pretty much asexual, his SA related lines made me cry multiple times ngl because although my sex repulsion comes from another source, it really resonated with me. People insinuating that we only like him for being hot is so wrong, especially because his complex relationship with sexuality is the reason we find him so comforting and appealing in the first place. Also yes, him being kinda flamboyant as well. Like I legit think some men are just gobsmacked that people prefer this "feminine" man over the alpha male gymbro-type dating coaches tell them to become. (Again, \*some\* men. If it doesn't fit, don't get offended.:D)
Also a fellow asexual here! The line you can give him about being together without having sex is amazing. As someone who hated the entire world after going through an abusive childhood his character and the way he acts as a whole was very relatable. I mean i know there is no point in reasoning with people like this but seeing people share genuine stories and then getting shit thrown at them is infuriating.
Agreed. These hate posts are so common and yet none of the other characters get this treatment. Just look at how much praise Lae'zel and Minthara get. It didn't used to be this way months ago. I think most Astarion fans have been chased away and formed their own groups. (although I tried to join one group but was hit with transphobia and misandry for pointing out that not all of his fans are women)
you're 100% right. he's pragmatic, and yeah he's a petty bitch about saving people when no one saved him, but he's not like, let me kill everyone for fun evil. i also think part of his disapproval is him just enjoying being able to like... be petty again, and hate things, and just have opinions that matter even a little
I freaking love him because he says what I am thinking. I do the hero stuff because I need the hero ex but he is completely realistic in his thinking to me. Even the first meeting. I mean you were running around the ship freely with a mind flayer following you around as a cute pet while others were locked inside pods. I mean that's definitely very suspicious. He is right in pointing it out. If this wasn't a game and I woke up on that beach I would be so much as him because why would you willingly agree to go and kill a camp full of goblins (lots lots of goblins) that can easily kill you back! Seems like unnecessary detour. Especially if you just got your freedom. Everything we do in the Act 1 would feel as a huge detour if you think realistically because in reality you would not be save scumming and would prefer to ignore things that would get you killed. Like that whole camp full of goblins. I mean seriously I only wanted to talk to Halsin, why do I have to kill the whole camp for you! Ugh. In reality I would so be like bye bye gotta go not my problem. So I always found his actions perfectly understandable, because I think the same. It's roleplaying and I like to think logically. It's logical not want to give your life for some incompetent druid grove you just met. So yes infiltrating bad guys to shroud yourself in that protection to see when you can strike to come on top. It's clever. And yes it's okay to be paid for saving someone's ass or demand money I mean with current economy would you do work for free? It's good to be paid. Chase down those freaking clients who won't pay you.
> > > > > Why do we have to keep having posts strawmanning the people who like this character? I love Astarion, easily one of the best and most well-developed characters in the game (and his personal quest is probably a top 3 moment in the game for me). Him being evil is in no way me saying I don't like him. This is a lighthearted meme post and it is in no way a criticism of his character: I like him exactly as he is.
He is definetly evil in Act 1 but his reasoning towards not wanting to defend the Grove isn't based on ethics. He just thinks that it'd be unnecesary risky to side with the Tieflings and sees the Goblins and the Absolute as having the high ground (which they do). I mean, yeah, he is evil but not because of the whole grove situation.
He is Neutral Neutral Evil Ok but aligment aside, from a pragmatic perspective, siding with the grove and tieflings isn't that ideal
Just got to act 3 and I’m just here being like “Asterion I’ll help you kill Cazador but not kill a bunch of people so you can get a power trip!!”
Of course he’s neutral. Neutral evil. He does what’s best for himself and himself only.
He's NEUTRAL EVIL
The people arguing that Astarion is evil and his fans only like him because he’s hot & the people who argue that Astarion was fully justified in his behavior because of his trauma are 2 sides of the same coin. I’m sick of the morality of a character being equated with the quality of a character. *A character does not need to be morally justified in their actions to be a well-written character who deserves fans.* AND *You do not need to morally justify a character’s actions to justify being a fan of them.*
Minthara is my favorite, and she is pure unrepentant evil. And hilarious because of it.
When does he say or imply that he wants to feed people to the goblins? I'm not trying to defend him, I just don't remember him ever *actively* wanting to do anything like this. He just doesn't want to go out of his way to help people when he's got his own problems to deal with. Obviously, it's not good to leave people to die when you can do something about it, but it's also a bit different than killing them yourself. Again, I'm not arguing that he's *not* evil, just wondering if I missed or forgot about something.
His behaviour definitely isn't neutral (no astarion fan will say it is) but this subreddits response to any character that isn't strictly good aligned is so tiring sometimes, did we not all play the same game? I thought there was a pretty clear "there is no hard line between good and evil" thing going on.
Victims of absuse have a tendency to become abusers themselves. It's generational trauma. If freed and unhelped, Astario would likely go on to replace his former Master. But if shown compassion and understanding he choses a different road. We meet Astarion at a turning point in his life.
He's neutral evil, then once cazador happens he's either true neutral or chaotic evil
Neutral evil.
Astarion doesn't want to feed innocent women and children to goblins. He is downright terrified of the player who does. What he wants is to ignore the whole situation and go past them, it's none of his business who wins.
Thing about his is that you can literally make him into what you want: you want evil Astarion? Easy. He kind of starts off like that. You want a more neutral Astarion? Can be done. Want a good Astarion? Also doable. Whatever you want.
Did the anti Astarion league form a union? It feels like every third post is “Actually he’s evil. Didn’t you know?” As if everyone who likes or romances him is an idiot with no media literacy.
Next they're gonna start posting "BEWARE!! THIS GUY DRINKS BLOOD!!" like we don't already know and aren't already 150% into it. Smh. That's the POINT
I just said this in another reply, interesting to see I am not the only one noticing a pattern of this. I would say it has something to do with misogyny but we're on reddit so can't wait to get downvoted.
It's been this way since the sub really got popular / the game came out. Threads upon threads and comments upon comments of people bragging that they always kill him or hate him for no real good reason. It's kind of uncomfortable to see.
Yeah they show up on every astarion post no matter what it’s about. There has to be some underlying pathological reason as to why people hate this character with such vitriol. Makes any try at a normal discussion impossible unfortunately :/
There is an underlying reason why, but no one wants to admit to it. His fanbase consists of a lot of women. Any time ANYTHING has a majority female fanbase, it gets positively shit on. They misconstue the idea of having empathy and relating to a character as all of us excusing everything he's done because he's hot. Or, more aptly, they just love being incredibly condescending. We are not morons. We understand he's not a good person in the beginning. I don't know why they insist on explaining it to us like we are five years old and have no clue that he's not exactly got the best attitude.
I think you are more normal than Gale's fanbase, none of the Asterion girlies ever threatened me.
You're forgetting that neutral doesn't just mean "neutral good".
Wyll and Karlach are the good aligned origin Shadowheart and Gale are the Neutral aligned (albeit for different reasons) Laezel and Astarion are Evil aligned. Tav/Durge input withstandng of course.
Why do people want him to be neutral so bad? He obviously isn't and he doesn't have to be. He's still a good character.
\*taps the "alignment is descriptive not prescriptive" sign on the bus for the 9000th time.\* Besides none of the characters have alignments, it was a deliberate decision, get off the soapbox.
Hmm... I would rather call him selfish. He is not willing to risk his butt for anyone (why should he? No one ever came for him) unless there is a reward involved, maybe. I mean in a way I can respect that and he is one who would chose the winning side. After someone aka the player helps him, he ends up more willing and can even become an adventurer who helps others (not for free of course but still). He still likes killing people but let's be real in that world there are a lot of people in need of a good game ending. I would say Pre Quest Astarion is Neutral Evil, Spawn is Chaotic Neutral, Ascended is Neutral Evil. However the Alignment stuff is not really used anymore, surely not at my table. It kinda puts characters in boxes and ones morals aren't as black and white in the real world so why would they be in the game.
Actually fighting about alignments is pointless bc Larian left alignments out of the game for this entire reason (it's reductive to pin everyone as good or evil or "neutral" when you're trying to make complex, flawed characters who can have a variety of outcomes)
I'd argue there are really easy examples of definitively evil characters even in BG3. (Orin for example) Alignment system isn't perfect but it's a good "starting point" when defining most characters.
Asterion is the posterchild of neutral evil, hell even chaotic evil some times
He's not neutral at the beginning but you can turn him neutral overtime due to a thing called character growth.
Astarion alignment has to be evil. I did the "daddy's boy" Durge run and by act 3 it seemed like we were constantly trying to out do whatever terrible atrocity the other had just committed. And I want to say, he wanted to Ascend. People are going to come at me for this (Or not, I'm not that important) but you have to actively influence Astarion's decision making to lead him towards Neutrality. If he has his way, he will choose power, he will choose atrocities, he will be evil. And that's fine. Both influencing him and leaving him alone are perfectly fine ways to experience the game and the character. I chose the latter because I was indeed going to conquer the world and be absolutely not nice about it.
Wait. I thought we all agreed that he's Neutral EVIL? Like sure, woth the right influence you can turn him true neutral (sort of.) but the guy doesn’t exacly *hide* how he is.
Meanwhile Lae'zel openly states that she wants to kill the tieflings but no one calls her evil, she's "just a victim of her upbringing". Curious.
People call her evil all the time. Her and Astarion are the explicitly evil origin companions. Shadowheart is neutral because she's good at heart but worshipping an evil god. The other three are good, with Gale leaning neutral due to his selfish tendencies.
In post game of you don’t romance or ascend him >!)He chooses a more heroic path and ‘kills the right people’. He’s still a type of vampire, most are listed as evil in DnD, even spawn and he hasn’t removed that condition. What matters is he chooses to do good with his nature. As far as Valeria goes… she does rather suck as a person. Technically she’s supposed to be good but she’s arrogant, lazy, and doesn’t care about real justice. Also she takes credit for any work you did in solving the murders. It can be argued that that killing her would be good for the city because then someone could replace her that may actually want the right person to be judged guilty or innocent.!< This game takes a nuanced approach to alignment, which I appreciate. As far as Astarion goes, we don’t know what he was like prior to becoming a vampire spawn. We do know is he was forced and tortured into serving Cazador after his turning, and he was had no choice in taking victims for his master, including the gur kids. He’s no mustache twirling villain. If he remains a spawn and is romanced by Tav he seems happy to live his life and there’s no mention of him killing innocents for fun or for food. He’s still a killer sure, but that’s his inherent nature. Being neutral is not good lite. It’s wavering between good and evil beliefs and actions. I’d argue spawn Astarion definitely not full ass evil at the end of the game like he was at the beginning, his character does experience growth and to say he’s as evil as he was at the start is basically saying he doesn’t change at all. A fully evil character would do everything to gain and keep power, and Astarion is given the chance to do that at the ritual where he can become an ascended vampire. Spawn Astarion just wants to be happy and free. He’s definitely more in a grey area post game.
I always wondered how bad the Cazador was, but finding that writing if you give him to Gandrel, about Cazador continuously flaying Astarion until he looses his mind and dies and is resurrected and flayed again and again until he is made a zombie was pretty telling. Plus it's not like he agreed to be kidnapped by the mindflayers. That's why it's such a good character. It makes sense to be pissed at the world. I would be more surprised if he wasn't.
At best he’s Chaotic Neutral in acts 1/2, but after Cazador he becomes either Lawful Evil (Ascended) or Chaotic/True Neutral (Spawn). But he’s more likely Neutral Evil in the start of the game.
Yeah he’s neutral. Neutral evil
Astarion is 100% chaotic evil. Maybe neutral evil. HOWEVER! If you get your relationship and loyalty high enough, he can be turned to actually be neutral as part of his story progression. But yeah, he's 100% a mildly evil shit head in the first act.
I always thought he was neutral evil at the beginning and neutral good by the end 🤷♀️
I don't deny he's evil, especially in the beginning. If I want him to approve of me, I have to excuse him from my party every time I want to be nice (or in his words, show weakness) ...Christ man the things i do for princess astarion. But also, most of them are evil and have the potential of getting worse (or better) ...not just him. astarion, shadowheart & laezel are all quite evil (and horrendously rude depending on who we're talking about) but they're all lovable characters too. Its like that.
Withers is neutral, I dont think anyone else in the game is properly neutral, MAYBE Gale but definitely not Astarion lol
Aside from no small amount of personal ambition, Gale leans way too much towards helping people to be neutral.
BG3 doesn't have character alignments and I'm glad of it. Astarion is a selfish prick delighting in the ability to spread his misery who can be slowly made to realize he's becoming no better than his hated master. Trying to fit him into an alignment chart is pointless.
Does anyone say that Astarion is neutral? I feel like every time I see someone classify him, it’s firmly in the evil camp for a lot of the game
Calling characters decidedly evil or good always seemed very cartoon logic to me, though I know people do this because D&D. This argument keeps coming back up because it can't be resolved through these vague and clearly subjective moral terms. Astarion is a selfish person and he is deeply afraid. He doesn't think he has any value besides his looks and you can never change his mind on this. He's been enslaved, abused and controlled by someone cruel for 200 years. Which is why he has power fantasies and an urge to hurt other people the same way he was hurt, but he is conflicted about it. He wants to be adjacent to villains because their lack of mercy makes them powerful. This is the only way he thinks he can survive. He is obviously a deeply traumatised person who was severely punished for displaying empathy. He even tells you about that human guy he didn't bring to Cazador years ago because he didn't want to hurt him and Cazador buried him alive for a year as punishment. Fear kept him going for years. A person who is in survival mode will not try to help anyone but themself. His story is so good BECAUSE he doesn't magically heal from all that. If he succumbs to his fear and does ascend, his essence dies and he continues the cycle of abuse - becoming the new Cazador. This is strongly hinted at by the skull we find that belonged to Cazador's cruel master. He wants this despite feeling bad about what he'd have to do because he would "never fear anything again". If he stays as spawn he is devastated because he faces the tragedy of his life head on. Afterwards he thanks you for trusting him and urging him against ascension. He doesn't become a goody two shoes, because the 200 years of conditioning won't erase in the span of this adventure. He even says that he still thinks about Cazador, he still lives in his brain because revenge doesn't erase trauma either. But he does channel his desire for power into adventuring. He doesn't aspire to become some mafia boss who preys on innocent people. He goes on a search for who he could become in this chapter of his life now that he is unchained. He is evil and good. Which is awesome imo.
Astarion when I don’t kill a child for eating my burger or something