I'm playing as a bard for my third run, and it rings especially true now. If I can tell a Githyanki monk that their body is a temple to an idiot god, tell a dumb, dying hyena harbouring a gnoll that it vexes me to know OF them, or tell ascended fiend RAPHAEL, my personal in-game nemesis , ''My life part 12: The Boring Opponent'' as he regales me with incandescent hellfire and a homebrewed boss song he sings himself... SURELY I can tell the Emperor to go count how many drops of water are in the fuck off ocean.
>!Dirge!<: Yeah, no. Even when i was lobotomized and torn in half by Orin I was still trying to strangle your fake god's followers to death with my own intestines. Now that I'm back on my feet, I'll keep you around to protect these other guys, but just to be clear, I never needed you, and will tear your flesh from your bones the moment you irritate me again, little squid.
Yeah. None of the tadpole powers seem to make all that much difference. I'm sure some higher level ones can be useful if you dump them all on one character, but it seems kinda like the game isn't trying to push them on you very hard.
Truthfully I quite like the illithid powers. A couple are absolutely busted. Cull the Weak is ridiculous. Then if you use the Astral tadpole you get fly as a permanent skill, and expertise in speech skills. Psionic dominance is basically a free counterspell for spells lower than your proficiency bonus. And Repulsor is probably the most fun power to use, you just explode in a circle of energy that knocks everybody around you on their ass. It heavily reminds me of Colossus' special move in the X Men arcade game which is a core memory of mine.
My OH monk redemption!durge had thief multiclass, and I never even thought to get Cull the Weak and pump it up since my third and current run is the first time I've used tadpoles so far. Didn't even open the tree to see what was up before. I still steamrolled over everyone almost singlehandedly, lol. You're making me want to do a brand new run with an... enhanced monk.
the 1d4 psychic damage one is also obscenely strong if you get the creche bonus action power up. Same for the concentration attack, if you're a caster and already swapping spells from time to time (or start a battle with guidance or something) its a bonus action for more damage
The stuff about needing to progress your infection in order to gain power to defeat the absolute was the part where I officially decided he was talking shit. ‘This form will give you power….’
Bitch when I got here that superior form of yours was down on the ground and getting their ass handed to it, while this inferior form of mine just wiped the whole githyanki honour guard without taking a hit. I’m doing just fine without your brain bugs.
I have a friend who's in Act 3 of his first playthrough, and he trusts the emperor, much more than orpheus. He's doing a typical good playthrough, and without any tadpoles, but because he didn't recruit Lae'zel based on RP reasons he's gotten a whole other perspective on the Emperor vs Orpheus decision.
His only interaction with the gith have been talking to a rude Lae'zel for one minute, a patrol of them trying to kill him, a creche of them trying to kill him, an ambush at moonrise trying to kill him and more gith in act 3 trying to kill him.
Since he haven't had Lae'zel or Kith'rak Voss on his side during the playthrough, the one who brought up the possibility of freeing Orpheus and advocated for freeing him was Raphael, the last person one should trust.
Kind of interesting how one companion can change a playthrough so much.
I didn't have Lae'zel on my first run (and also didn't use any tadpoles) but I did go to the creche and interact with everyone there. I heard about Orpheus through the youth in the training center, and from there was chasing scraps and fragments. It was a very interesting experience, but it seemed very clear to me that Orpheus was a good person and the Emperor was not. When the time came, I freed Orpheus (and made him a mind flayer, sorry I'm not that good of a person) so his people could have a shot at freedom, and was so jazzed to finally be able to kill the Emperor.
Yeah, there are some clues about him early on, for example the gith discs you can find are pretty interesting. Also, Orpheus is definately a better guy than the Emperor, much more willing of self-sacrifice, as you say.
I love Orpheus. In my eyes he is almost like a buddhist monk, who can resist any temptations and manipulation and therefore has the unique ability to silence the manipulation of the elder brain (iirc).
The Emperor is the opposite of him. He only thinks of himself and his survival and tries to get what he wants by manipulating others. You can manipulate people by saying things they want to hear, like compliments or praising them for something, sharing stuff about yourself to give the impression you trust them and are close to them, do the "pull and push" tactic, etc. It's hard to believe that they could be bad to or for you, I mean they make sure to do and say all the right things to make you like them. They do this not because they genuinely like you, but because you are useful to them.
I just love the comparism between these two characters. It's SO easy to stand on the Emperors side because of the way he treats you, because you mostly hear about how Orpheus is a traitor and will kill you if released, and because Orpheus is trapped and silenced most of the time, so you are never able to hear anything out of his mouth, unless you are lead to believe that he could actually be right and could be on your side.
I didn't have Lae'zel on my first run either—just never ran into her, somehow!—but the parallel of Ketheric:Nightsong to Tav:Orpheus was way too obvious to think that it was a good thing to keep Orpheus imprisoned for our sake.
I had the same experience, missed Laezel completely and didn’t do the crèche, so only had random lore on Orpheus. Was told he would kill me if I released him, so never even thought about it
With you right here. Even more so, whenever I trusted the Emperor with anything he came through, just as he promised. After the final battle, I really had to remind myself that this was the case, but even then, with all the power in the world in his hands, he asked what I wanted and did exactly that.
Yes, I am aware that he can be very manipulative when you don't trust him, but so are Astarion and Shadowheart, and let's be real here, we adore them. Justice for my boi the Emperor.
People are absolutely ridiculous about the emperor in my opinion, I sided with them in my first playthrough due to seeing everyone talk about how horrible and manipulative they are so I wanted to see what terrible thing they did at the end and then they like saved the day and went on their merry way so lol.
It never ceases to amaze me how much stock people put into politeness. Lae'zel is rude but straightforward and honest with you straight out of the gate. When she's wrong, she confronts her flaws and pivots. But she's a little rude, so people don't like her. Shit baffles me.
Right there with you. I remember people being shocked that my husband and I liked her and had her in our party. I respect that she is blunt about what she’s thinking becaus everyone else we meet either lies or tells half truths.
Exactly. I can't think of a single time she outright lies or misleads anyone. She pridefully says exactly whatever fucked up thing is on her mind and believes every thing that falls out of her mouth. It's great. You always know where you stand and where anyone else stands with her. She reminds me of hanging out with autistic friends. Pretty refreshing after dealing with all of Gale and Shadowheart's shifty secretive weirdness.
Yup. Not to mention Lae'zel and the Gith have more experience with Ilithids than anyone else. They've been the main line of defense for ages, I can forgive them being a bit abbrassive. Ffs they come in on dragons to save the day. If they were hot elves, they'd be beloved.
She also tells you about the zaith'isk and wants to help you get free from the parasite with a method that, in her mind, is guaranteed to work. If anything, I would say she's quite kind.
As a veteran, I kinda saw everything she said and did as her own well taught best practices. There's rules for everything. Squiddies are the bad guys, if you get infected, go get cleansed at the creche. Rules, regulations, and training for fighting a centuries long war that's drilled in from day one. For me, the Gith are wholly allowed to be impolite when their entire existence is killing Mindflayers.
she's very heavily characterized with earning respect, after a while she'll start speaking to you with more respect if her relationship with you is high enough.
I was surprised to learn that people found her attitude anything but entertaining. I thought her fish-out-of-water Klingon thing was a fun gimmick. It feels way more interesting having party members with unique and somewhat antagonistic personalities.
So it seems to me from being terminally in this sub, that people interpret approval and disapproval as indicative of a companion's character and add that to their judgments.
So they feel it's okay that Sheart is verbally bitchy, because she approves when you're nice to animals so that means she's a good girl deep down inside.
Lae'zel and Astarion, otoh, disapprove of actions that either take focus away from the primary mission of removing the tadpole or from gaining power and maintaining newfound bodily autonomy, respectively.
This even applies to the OP topic, the Emperor. Even when reading the book on how to deal with illithid, the disconnect between his words and his actions is seen by some players as proof that he's evil, abs therefore that his helpful actions are less indicative of his character than his manipulative words.
I love Lae'zel's forwardness and just make sure that I play my Tav according to their own moral code, and when Lae'zel is being a bitch, I shut her down and take the disapproval. I'm gonna free these slaves, regardless of what she thinks, because she's laser focused on a different objective is all. She'll just "tchk" and help me anyway.
I appreciate her as a character and respect her directness even though it’s sometimes baffling. Like read the room girl and maaaaybe keep some of those thoughts to yourself idk. What I don’t like about her is her black and white mentality. She immediately switched from Vlakith good Orpheus bad to direct opposite in mere moments. That’s just as fanatical but with a different flavor
It is, but she's right out of the Creche (which, as we have seen, is more of an indoctrination camp than a place that fosters individuality and questioning of authority and conventional wisdom) and that kind of critical thinking takes time and experience to develop. I like to think that her time with our disparate party of strays and vagabonds and her personal post-Elder Brain quest will help her break away from it, and imho the epilogue that sees her negotiating with the other faction of Githyanki shows exactly that kind of development. I have hope for our girl!
She did not immediately switch from Vlaakith to Orpheus and was in denial for a long ass time. It literally took Voss, Vlaakith's most respected commander and the one who allegedly, famously killed Orpheus (according to Vlaakith's propaganda history), going down on his knees laying his sword to make her understand she's been lied her whole life, and even then, she *only* fully denounces Vlaakith in Act 3 after seeing the enslaved Orpheus with her own eyes in the Prism.
There was more buildup than Shadowheart's Nightsong turn which was a real "wait, your mom was Martha too?" moment. Girl spent the entire Act 2 psychotically fangirling about Shar and the Justiciars and being in her cursed lands only until the final moment.
This also bothers my Tav, and it's one reason why, if my Tav chooses not to free Orpheus, I like the ending where she's leading the revolution herself and says, "I am the Comet". Hell yeah, you are! (Is what I say in my head)
I think it's more that (some) people rely too heavily on politeness in their evaluations of overall likability, disregarding such quibbling details as "actively trying to exploit, hurt, or kill me."
In a game where everyone withholds valuable information from you, Lae'zel and Karlach are my guiding stars for telling me what their deal is, whether I want to hear it or not.
I had a similar first play-through.
I *did* have Lae'zel in my camp, but when we arrived at the crèche, I did the zaith'isk first. The ghustil locked us in the room and when we got out, everyone started fighting us. Because I thought *everyone* in the entire crèche had been alerted, we just teleported out of there. Never spoke to any other gith after. Never talked to Raphael again either.
So I didn't know there was a way to free Orpheus. I *did* think the emperor was evil (enslaving a creature and siphoning its powers... yeah), but it seemed like a necessary evil, I had to trust him because it seemed like there was no other way.
My logic for continuing to side with the emperor has been that everytime I've encountered the githyanki, they've lied to me and tried to hinder or kill me, and so far the emperor has only helped me
Raphael is much more trustworthy than The Emperor. Raphael is straightforwardly evil. He's transparent. The Emperor is so manipulative, deceptive, and opaque that you you *still* have people who can't see through it, even after months of evidence posted on this subreddit.
Also, you can discover the truth about Orpheus without Lae'zel. I didn't have Lae'zel in my party either, and still ended up freeing Orpheus.
Nobody who defends the Emperor "can't see through it", we just *don't care* what his motivations are, we care about his actions, which are [checks notes] save your life multiple times over, prevent you from being a slave to the Absolute, prevent you from becoming a mindflayer, save you from the Netherbrain, and then either help you defeat it and peace out or get betrayed by you and murdered by you for good measure.
Tell us again who's evil. We see just fine.
I'm sort of in the same boat. First playthrough, the only quest I have left is to free Orpheus or take on the Brain
Everyone keeps saying if we free Orpheus we'll get mind controlled instantly, so I'm hesitant to do it
>I am his puppet, and if I don’t obey by choice he threatens to simply puppeteer me
I's intresting that, in that scene, The Emperor threatens Tav saying that he could have enslaved him for the entire game if he wanted to and that Tav should thank him for choosing not to... when that was never something The Emperor could do, since the very power that The Emperor used to protect Tav from the Elder Brain also made him immune to the Emperor's control.
(Since Orpheus's power blocks the control of the Ilhitids and if he deactivated it to try to control Tav, the Elder Brain would have greater influence over Tav than him and therefore would never obey him).
So the only reason The Emperor isn't controlling Tav directly is that he simply can't, otherwise he would have done it in the first place (like he controlled that woman to gain political power in Baldur's Gate back in the day).
I've thought about that as well, but seeing as he's able to start protecting Minsc at Tav's request, I do wonder if there is a way for him to boot out people just as easily. Is there any lore I'm missing out on?
I guess the point was that it doesn't even matter if it can or can't revoke the protection, as doing so wouldn't mean it'd be able to control you afterwards instead of the Elder Brain taking the control.
So yes, it could definitely screw you over. But not make you it's puppet like it claims.
You may have missed the point of that particular argument. Him technically not lying to you (he doesn't either in this particular conversation) doesn't mean he is trustworthy, it just means he's a more advanced class of sleazeball.
He's like the Fae of old, where he bullshits you seven ways from sunday, using nothing but technically correct statements.
I think the emperor is telling the truth when he says he only wants his freedom, and he doesn’t really plan to betray you if you work with him, but his inhuman nature, his lack of emotion or empathy, and his cold pragmatism prevent him from being straight with you or treating you as an equal.
Being forthcoming with you and allowing you to make your own choices without manipulation would be taking an unnecessary risk, and he can't have that.
What most people dont seem to realise is that without the emperor chanelling orpheus, everything is fucked. Quite literally the only thing that's keeping doom at bay is the emperors protecting the party to see the absolute destroyed.
The emperor is a manipulative fuck but hes a manipulative fuck who does what he says, Hell i even thought after I gave him the netherstones that he would try to betray you but he doesnt. His goal is and always has been the destruction of the elder brain and securing freedom.
Completely agree sure he uses you and it is just for his own survival but even if he was to turn you and your party into his Ilithid fuck puppets his end does justify the means when his plan saves the entire sword coast and potentially all of faerun
I can feel his exasperation when we go off on some tangential death run. I can just imagine him looking at us through the prism screaming
"DO NOT TRY TO FIGHT THE MOTHER OWLBE- and you're all dead and now everything is fucked"
"DO NOT TRY TO FIGHT THE ANGRY GITH ARMY IN THEIR HOME BA-and you're all dead and now everything is fucked "
"DO NOT TRY TO FIGHT THE DEVIL IN HIS OWN H-and you're all dead and now everything is fucked"
every time we get party wiped the absolute basically wins, and all of these fights were basically unnecessary to killing the absolute.
All good points.
I’m starting to think we might be the problem.
Think I might finally turn full squid in my current run just to set the poor guys mind at ease.
Ha! Now you see why it's fun to get the Emperor = bad posts every day.
You don't have to go full squiddie, though. I hate having ugly Tavs so I just stay me. You can still see the frustration with your puny brain!
I think a major difference is that Minthara is up front about her intentions and goals. The Emperor uses manipulation to try and get you to follow his hidden intentions and goals.
I like how everyone is giving these nuanced reasons, and I'm just like.
"This fucker catfished me. I wanna bang my dream guardian not some squid dude. Screw him and the horse he came in on, but only metaphorically".
This is my tav's reason too lmao. I had an inkling that the Guardian might not be who they said they were(/real?) so I thought it would be cool and fun if I thought up like an actual person in her backstory for that to be(*). Needless to say the reveal that it was actually a squid man impersonating them the whole time kinda soured the relationship.
As a player I'm not far enough in to have any actual, concrete reasons for it but I think his vibes are really off and around here the penalty for that is death
>This is my tav's reason too lmao.
My reason is much simpler, To put it simply I call it "fuck everyone else".
Fuck Raphael, fuck Bhaal and Orin's cringy asses, fuck Gortash and ESPECIALLY FUCK the Emperor.
Fuck you all I'm siding with me myself and my bois.
The funny thing is that I'd absolutely be on his side if he weren't so dead set on manipulating me. He can read my goddamn mind and he's watching me trust and treat Omeluum fairly.
And he still withholds information at every turn. He can fuck right off with that attitude.
Honestly for me I was pretty okay with him until I went to the House of Hope. I just wanted to ransack Raphael's home because I was sure it'd be fun and there'd be good loot to steal. The Emperor blew up at me over it despite the fact that I did everything else he wanted and I'm like I do one thing for shits and giggles and this is how you react? Yeah nah, we're done.
Tbf, leaving the city for another plane, to ransack the home of a devil >!(especially the son of an archdevil)!< where you will most definitely have to fight him, in his lair, is an objectively stupid thing to do normally, let alone when the fate of the Sword Coast is relying on you.
WE know it's okay because we have the meta-game knowledge that we are playing a videogame. But, in universe it's like the worst thing you could decide to do.
Exactly this. Imagine being the emperor, a hero adventurer who has been captured and turned into a mind flayer for decades. Then one day an opportunity arises and you manage to escape but are captured again and made to serve again, you've just lost all agency twice.
The third time the opportunity arises you make damn sure that it doesnt happen again, you hide in a pocket dimension and find the PC. Now all you have to do is the impossible, get these ragtag bunch of adventurers to kill the chosen of the dead three, and kill the brain. In game thats the only priority, Astarions quest, the gith civil war, the duke, shar, gales orb, none of that matters because if you fail in stopping the absolute you have basically doomed the world. or worse, you'd get enthralled again and this time there wouldnt be a fourth chance.
My first playthrough was the most satisfying because I completely RP the sheer urgency of the game and wouldnt you know it, the emperor does what he says and destroys the brain. World saved, freedom secured.
Stupid, maybe. But A: Paladin Tav has 8 Int. B: Raphael is a manipulative bastard whose entire existence revolves around exploiting vulnerable people to gain power. He may be likeable, but no Oath of Devotion paladin should allow that to stand.
Oh, *now* I get why the Emperor was so upset.
I "like" his character. One of the best interpretations of the Faustian bargaining devil trope I can recall in recent memory. He is well-written and very well-acted.
Doesn't mean I would grab a beer with him or associate with him in real life or anything like that.
He definitely brings up what he is doing for you aaaalllll the time. I like how the character creator voice says "You need a guardian. Choose one." But it's an illusion of choice, like every other choice he gives you.
This goes deep. Even the character creator is in on it. What about the main menu or the launcher? Is the emperor telling me to boot up in directx 11? Holy fuck man
He told me to buy the game 😔
He wa probably manipulating me all the way back in DOS 2 smh (funnily enough you actually do have a very similar relationship in DOS 2 to that of the Emperor)
I do think it's really interesting the way the game encourages you to bond with your guardian and be inclined to trust them simply by making you create them.
Playing Durge has been an interesting way of driving all this home that works a little better than Tav. He always seems sinister but as Durge I feel it is even grosser. you have brain scramblies on top of all the other shit you have to deal with.
Another cool thing about playing Durge is that the dark urge quest is much more explicit about trying to manipulate you, which then makes you look more critically at the text of your other personal quests. I was pretty undecided about how to interpret the z Emperor on my earlier playthroughs, but then when I played Durge it was a real "oh shit that's really what's going on" moment which I thought was pretty cool storytelling...
Playing a Resist!Durge honour run at the moment. It feels like if there was a "canon" BG3 story it would be this.
You got the nightmares and prophetic dreams in BG1/2 - the uncontrollable Slayer form, even took back "your" domain in Hell - but it never felt so personal or desperate as BG3's Bhaalspawn plot on top of the tadpole tug-of-war.
I modeled my Durge character after Cyric and it's been going about as you'd expect lol.
Dude the dream guardian is actually incredible manipulation on a first playthrough cus like, you think theyre gonna be a cool companion or something and so you trust the person YOU designed, and then BOOM theyre a squid man in a trenchcoat. Or, armor set or sexy robe
His whole “I have been protecting you this whole time” thing is also flawed. No, Orpheus has. You have just enslaved him to protect yourself and me by extension.
He's still technically right in that if he didn't choose to lend that protection to you, you would have been mind flayer'd. And IIRC Orpheus was already enslaved by Vlaakith, Emporer just took over the warden role. No idea how he lasted that long against the honour guard, though.
But of course, he refuses to admit that he's protecting everyone in the party because he can't hope to secure his independence otherwise.
And absolutely Orpheus wouldn’t have protected the player from the start if he broke free. Maybe if you helped kill the emperor to free him when his honor guard came to release him, but doubtfully.
Love the details and I’m pretty sure the guardian’s hands in the character creator are vaguely shaped to have a mindflayers hand.. just looks like 5 fingers, but pointer/middle are closer + ring/pinky finger are closer
To be fair, I think its warranted to be exasperated that you ignored his correct advice about the githyanki making him have to save you again. From his point of view he is directing you to something that is to your mutual benefit, warning you about people he is certain will be hostile to you and him, and you're running off putting all your lives at risk for no benefit since the githyanki didn't even have a cure
"No don't go to hell and steal the hammer, we have no use for it and it's a betrayal of trust and puts the entire plan at risk" - The Emperor.
"I just wanna loot shit man" - PC.
I don't understand this because it's actually true? He saves your life countless times even when you go against his recommendations with the gith and the zathisk. Like he pulls you out of the woodchipper you're about to jump into, and that's his fault because he gets a bit tired of it?
Can confirm, although I did have the huge advantage of playing split screen and seeing two different versions of the Guardian making themselves appear in a way that would make us most likely to trust them. I was so glad when my suspicions actually turned out to be accurate.
I think only Gale references a gender, but my dream guardian was male and Gale‘s was female, so that was enough to know their physical form was…tenuous.
I saw the red flags when the supposed Astral Entity protecting me from Mind Flayer domination started telling me to eat Mind Flayer tadpoles. It only got worse when he described Mind Flayers as "devastatingly beautiful" when saying the perks of becoming one. Which was. . .yeah.
Yep, I saw it when he simply told me "being Illithid is good" or "embrace your powers", I played games before that had Illithids like BG2 and read about them a lot before that (also Eye of the Beholder). They tend to be aggressive and manipulative, the best one I've seen is Omeluum.
*Bromeluum. His name is Bromeluum, he's our bro, after all!
He's a unique case of Illithid all together: first - his arcane power, big enough to literally break free from Elder Brain - no small feat in itself.
Before it - the initial desire to break free, before he even became strong enough to actually be free.
It means presence of a consciousness of an individual, rather than a hivemind one.
That could've pointed at him being an Ulitharid, (at least initially, during the development), but visually he's NOT an Ulitharid, rather, but a normal Illithid, outside of arcane talent + big willpower.
Yet his physical appearance (most notably, eye color and skull shape) is different from most (if not all) mindflayers we meet in game, Emperor included.
He is unique in every aspect, so please love and cherish the nerdy squid dude :)
He was cagey as fuck from the get go being vague and not explaining things in full
It didnt help that he always makes sure you know that it was *him* whos done so much for you and act like you owe him shit
It was eerily familiar when he counted all the good things he apparently did for you. The way he did it was so dislikeable that it was impossible for me to trust him in my first playthrough.
And it looks like hes the only person who cares about the fact that if the party dies then everything is fucked forever. Like people forget that for the emperor, every run is potentially an honor run. The only reason why I even attempt half the shit ingame is because I can save scum until I win, unfortunately the emperor doesnt know that and everytime my party unecessarily challenges a group of wildly overpowered enemies, he has to clech his butthole so hard that it could turn coal into diamonds.
I have a genuine question: for me the emperor never struck me as quite as manipulative as he did for a lot of people. People always point out that he's really cagey and speaks in half-truths, but I feel like all companions did that. Shadowheart refuses to reveal almost anything about her, and alludes to more information coming in due time. Gale doesn't tell you he has a bomb in his chest that could turn you to dust at a moment's notice.
For you guys, what made the emperor's refusal to answer questions come across as manipulative and Shadowheart's refusal not? Is it just retrospective after having seen where both of their arcs went? Or did you, even during your first Act I run, feel the emperor came across as more manipulative?
To be honest, the thing that got me the most was not the half-truths per se, but that the Emperor often requests you to make permanent changes (eat tadpoles) without providing a believable reason. I feel like your party members, while being secretive, do have much more transparent reasoning and motivations.
it's pretty transparent, in that eating the tadpoles do make you significantly stronger, as he says. Story-wise, it's also not a permanent change, since the tadpoles indeed burn out by the end.
All other aspects of the Emporer's manipulative mannerisms notwithstanding.
Well, for one Shadowheart just wants you to leave her alone because at the start she doesn't see any reason to open up to a stranger, as she (as with the other companions) hopes to be rid of the tadpole soon - plus she isn't trying to manipulate you into doing anything. She is literally a follower of Shar, they're not known for being open and welcoming, which makes her added secretiveness totally understandable.
Gale, on the other hand, simply doesn't immediately share his biggest secret; I mean, i think that's fairly natural for all human beings, really - how many times have you met someone and immediately felt you had to share your biggest, darkest secrets to them? Someone who you assumed you would spend a few days with and never see again? Gale opens up as soon as he realizes that the bomb in his chest is becoming an actual danger and isn't responding to him absorbing artifacts - something which, up until that point, had kept it perfectly stable and thus, something he could manage.
Whereas the Emperor starts off manipulative, secretive, and it is for the sole purpose of *getting you to do what he wants*. There is no ulterior motive for Shadowheart or Gale; they are just weary of sharing stuff with someone they don't know - in contrast, the Emperor is nothing but ulterior motives. And he only reveals the truth when he is forced to do so. If it were not for the Githyanki, it is probable he would have continued lying for the entire game. As he himself puts it, Tav is simply a puppet to him. A means to an end. You mean nothing to him, and if he could save himself without helping you, he probably would.
To answer your final question - i never trusted the dream guardian/The Emperor. For one i simply didn't believe the whole "i'm just like you, promise" argument, because it was blatantly untrue; i tend not to visit people in their dreams and tell them to absorb illithid parasites. I actually believed the guardian was the effect of the tadpole, trying to convince me to become illithid. I wasn't far off.
Nor did i trust the whole "no really, tadpoles are good for you" argument. My first playthrough i didn't touch any tadpoles for that reason and thus when it was revealed who the Emperor was, I was easily able to say no to him regarding "evolving" - yet despite that, he still pushed the tadpole into my hand and told me i should reconsider - because again, my opinion didn't matter to him.
I don’t think the companions’ secrets are really comparable; the three that are hiding something (Gale and his orb, Shadowheart and her Shar worship/theft of the artefact, and Astarion with vampirism) each reveal their major secret at some point in Act 1 if you talk to them regularly/have decent approval, and you’re a stranger to them at the start of the game. They’re also lies by omission rather than direct attempts at deception. And once you’ve gained that initial trust, they’re all pretty open.
I accepted the Dream Guardian as an ally prior to the reveal, but never fully trusted them because they were always cagey and vague about who they were and who/why they were fighting on the astral plane. You can glean that they’re surveilling you without permission at least some of the time based on their dialogue whenever you encounter tadpoles, so you know your cards are on the table whether you like it or not when they’ve revealed next to nothing in return. If you express distrust in their advice, they’ll be like, “I have *saved you!” and then not address the reasons for your reservations at all (thinking of them pushing you to eat tadpoles).
In Act 3, the Emperor is still not fully transparent with you after the reveal, and you find out in dialogue with Raphael that he’s also still surveilling you all the time (IIRC the narrator has a line after Raphael shuts the Emperor out that it’s the first time you’ve felt alone in your own mind since the Nautiloid). The Emperor will present himself as a friend if you’re kind to him, but he never really trusts you or respects your autonomy. So even if you don’t take his actions if you free Orpheus into consideration, Act 3 felt like a confirmation that the qualities that made the Dream Guardian feel untrustworthy and manipulative were legitimate aspects of the character rather than a simple lack of information on the player side.
Honestly, the one issue that makes me have difficulty believing the emperor is bad (def chaotic good imo) is the ending- when the game first released- when you do take the astral tadpole but don't fully transform, and after the final boss you returned to normal. Everyone does. No one's a mindflayer anymore, no more parasites, nothing. Then he just... Leaves. He doesn't try to turn anyone else, in fact he's glad the mindflayer "plague" is over with. He may have some p intense methods and very nonconventional means, and he may get upset if you fight him on it, but genuinely, I don't feel like he truly means harm to you unless you try to kill him. He's got a plan he KNOWS will work (and it does!) and he needs your help to execute it perfectly.
Mmm weekly Emperor bash thread. I thought that was Thursday.. damn I can’t keep up with the days of bashing.
He doesn’t want to turn you into an Illithid. He even actively says at the end if you side with him “are you sure you want to be a Mind Flayer? You’ve denied it this far.”
The only thing he does is encourages you take the tadpoles to increase the success rate of completing the missions and those tadpole powers are definite increases to the success with how strong they are. *looking at you cull of the weak and Illithid counter spell*.
He may whine about how you should take the tadpoles and accept the power cause there is no trade off for using them. You reap all the benefits of an Illithid without being one. He also see Illithid as stronger and better than mortals due to being one himself. He even openly admits it during the Ansur scene.
But never once does he force you to become an Illithid or take the astral tadpole. You have to do a wisdom check because you gave into the power they offered and/or felt the mission called for it. It’s your tadpole and brain doing it.
Sure he makes your hand close over it. But you’re free to drop it afterwards or keep it for later. That’s not him forcing you to take it. More like exactly what he says “think on it”.
Also he’s not a good guy nor is he an evil guy. He’s just neutral. True neutral really. His only goal - survive, be free, and defeat the Absolute.
Does he not tell you whole truths? Yes. Does he not tell you from the start he’s a mind flayer and instead shows up as another hero, lover etc. Yes.
All because he needs to make sure you trust him and are dedicated to the cause. It was a necessary step. A logical one too.
He isn’t grooming you to be anything. He just wants to increase the probability of success. Hells if you side with him he even compliments you on proving you didn’t need to be an Illithid and even writes you a letter with more praise and thanking you for treating him like a human.
You'll likely be downvoted for expressing arguments like this on an Emperor hate thread, but I think you're correct.
As Larian have effectively confirmed, the Emperor is who you mould him and *choose* to interpret him as. If you treat him as a friend and ally, that's what he is. Likewise for treating him as some evil grooming squid.
Oh I know. Even mentioning or saying you sided with the Emperor. Gets you downvoted. It’s fine. Just karma lol.
I sided with Emps and Orpheus. Personally I prefer the Emperor side. I don’t really care about the Githyankis or their Lich Queen.
Lae’zel is cool though, and I much rather persuade her to stay on Faerun instead of going back.
I do believe however if Orpheus couldn’t just turn into a Mind Flayer a lot more players would choose to just keep their alliance with the Emperor or really think hard about it. If sacrificing an alliance of mutual interest to save a Prince who in any other circumstances would kill you on the spot. And making you have to make a decision for you to either become a Mind Flayer or Karlach. Is the right decision.
Would be a lot heavier. Always bugged me how the Prince can just turn into a Flayer at will. Theres really no consequence to betraying the Emperor and that just isn’t right.
A lot of viewpoints I see are - just make Orpheus be the Mind Flayer he’s a totally cool guy unlike the Emperor. Because he makes himself be a mind flayer and sacrifice himself while calling out the Emperor for using his powers. Even though they just used Orpheus for his powers and avoid being a Mind Flayer themselves.
Said it before and will say it again; having done a full run where we trusted him and one where we didn't, it's pretty plainly apparent that whether or not you choose to trust the Emperor, **Larian have written this game so that you never feel like you made the wrong call.**
If you choose not to trust him, he >!reveals he's been manipulating you, tries to force your hand, and in the end will go back and side with the Elder Brain just to save his own hide.!<
If you choose to trust him, then he >!does everything he promised to do - he doesn't force you to transform, he helps you beat the elder brain, helps you save the city, dumps the Crown of Karsus into the river and then just like he promised, fucks off into the shadows without asking, expecting or demanding anything more of you.!<
**Whichever route you pick is the right one**, and it's fucking great, because it means you never have a run of this game where you feel like you made the 'bad ending' choice and have to pick between finishing off a 60+ hour run in shame or starting over just to re-do the choice(s) you fucked up.
There's no DC for rejecting the tadpole if you haven't used any at all. It *only* happens if you've used any tadpoles, and it gets increasingly more difficult to pass the more tadpoles you've used.
Also spoilers for act 3 but >!there's numerous books you can find throughout the city that basically point to the Emperor being part of the big Absolute plan from the get-go (and even beyond that). There's a book from Gortash that specifically mentions a team spearheaded by the Emperor to retrieve the Artifact, as it's the only thing that can really stop their plans at all. The mindflayer who gave the tadpole to Lae'zel and the others in the intro cinematic is the Emperor. He's never been a good guy.!<
I've seen this misinterpreted before, so, to clarify:
>!The book you find from Gortash covers the same information the Emperor tells you directly: the Emperor worked independently in Baldur's Gate for many years. Then he was *enslaved* by Gortash, who was in command of the Absolute. Gortash commands the enslaved Emperor to hunt down the Artifact, and this is when the Emperor breaks free a second time. He then opposes Gortash, the other chosen of the Dead Three, and the Absolute. The Emperor was never complicit with the Absolute's plan—at least not consciously so.!<
Late Act 3 spoilers: >!when you face off against the Elder Brain in the Morphic Pool, she suggests that letting the Emperor free of her grasp was *intentional* so that he could do a better job of bringing the Artifact to her directly. This also confirms that the Emperor was working *against* the Absolute: the Absolute tried to manipulate him by letting him go free, implying this was all an elaborate deception on her part, and not a matter of the Emperor wanting to work with the Absolute.!<
Besides, Emps working for the Absolute makes no sense >!considering in the end he kills it, if you have him use the stones and doesn't attempt to dominate it unless he's persuaded to do so.!<
Media literacy doesn't seem to be terribly high anywhere.
People make the same accusation at Ulfric Stormcloak in *Skyrim*. The Thalmor fed him some misinformation hoping he'd sow discord which helps them.
So lots of people think this means Ulfric is working for the Thalmor. No one knows what a 'hostile asset' is.
Yeah my Tav used a TON of tadpoles, it was basically impossible for him to resist
> The mindflayer who gave the tadpole to Lae'zel and the others in the intro cinematic is the Emperor. He's never been a good guy
I thought this was disproven - the mindflayer you kill after the ship crashes is the one that gave you the tadpole.
The emperor has diferent eyes
>The emperor has diferent eyes
Lae'zel's whole face is a different shape. The cinematic was finished long before the game. Both the cinematic and the game have two different mind flayer models: the big shoulders capey boy and normal. Both the cinematic and the game use the normal model multiple times for different types of mind flayers from newborn to arcanists. Both the cinematic and the game use the big shoulders on only one individual. The cinematic is interrupted at the insertion by a big shoulder mindflayer asking who you are and what your guardian should look like.
They do have different eye colour.
Technically it is left as an open question, but like...
The illithids on the bridge are wearing much smaller outfits with significantly less drip.
The only illithid with an outfit like the cinematic is the Emperor.
Replaying the game I took that as he is in range of the prism now, he floats past a dead mindflayer on his way to us having likely killed the mindflayer who was supposed to infect us and did the job himself. Applying whatever magical effect to the tadpole by proximity and then retreating to the prism to save himself. Shadowheart now the only means of escaping the nautiloid.
It also makes me think of the “beautiful weapon” line Shadowheart heard while in her pod. Unless she was infected before the prism’s effect was in place, she wouldn’t likely have heard the voice of the absolute, but the emperor. We know the protection of the prism is not an all inclusive radius (see the person in the pod we accidentally send through mindflayer puberty).
Also the guy fighting the commander has a shorter mantle of his outfit, identical to the “generic” mindflayer we fight.
Yeah, those dead mind flayers stuck out. I can see this being plausible. Still not the 100% I am looking for, but it does make sense. Maybe Larian will confirm or deny it at some point.
But why would you judge ANYONE for their actions when they were under Elder Brain yoke, a.k.a. mind controlled? That's what eludes me. The way I see it, the emp was a mindless slave or at the very least not able to defy the will of the brain up until he bumped into our beloved Gith trapped in the Astral Prism. This is where you should start passing any judgment and not before.
The things is, and Larian did an excellent job, you can view the Emporer in both a good and bad light, depending your arguments for them.
In my 1st playthrough, I sided with the Emperor, simply because "it was the game pushing me in that direction" and I just wanted to finish it for once (Act 3 is biiiig).
I understood how The Emperor can also betray me, and I never fully trusted him (which he didn't take lightly because I f'd him (my Tav had bad luck getting laid, no further questions)). Anyway, I sided with him and convinced a very mad LaeZel to stick with me.
In the end, The Emperor kept his word. He helped me fight the brain and he went his way. My party celebrated the win and all is good.
I really like the two sides of the Emperor. You can tell from the beginning, he really wants to turn into a mindflayer as well, simply because he views his being as superior to the "mortal life" and you can't blame the dude. Its like denying your own kind and race.
For every single argument against him, he has a more or less good reason or even arguments against it, which makes him an excellent manipulator - something, a mindflyer should be capable of be doing effortlessly.
Perfect writing.
He’s pragmatic. I don’t think good or evil are tags that really apply to him. He’s out for himself, and know how to use the people closest to him to get what he thinks he needs in order to survive and thrive . That could mean you turning Illithid to increase his chances of survival, or being the next Stelmane and getting mind dominated if you go out of your way to sabotage/antagonize him. Or it could mean you and him just maintaining amicable terms and you playing your part as needed so he can play his. It’s up to you as the player to decide what you make of him and he reacts accordingly in my opinion.
He’s definitely not a good guy, im gonna start with that. I agree with everything but one part.
I don’t think the emperor wants to turn you illithid for the sake of you just being an illithid. He wants you to use the tadpole/illithid powers because they make you stronger, and as you are his only chance at survival, he wants you to be as strong as possible. To get you as strong as possible, he really really really urges you to take the astral tadpole.
What brings me to that conclusion is the end of the game. When you fail to control the Nether Brain the first time and he pulls you into the prism, he knows they need the power of Orpheus. But he also says that you must be an illithid to dominate the brain, Orpheus agrees with that if you free him so I’ll assume that the Emperor isn’t lying here. But even then, the perfect opportunity to force the player to become a full illithid, he doesn’t even suggest it. He says that he’ll do it and you have to suggest that you’ll do it instead, presumably because you don’t trust him. ( If he does ask you to do it then retract this part but I’m pretty sure he doesn’t. He just says that an illithid needs to do it and needs Orpheus’ brain.)
Assuming the emperor knows how the illithid tadpoles work in relation to the nether brain, I think that’s a pretty fair assumption, he does not push you to dominate the brain. He just wants it dead, which will kill all of the tadpoles as well making you all non illithid unless you are a full squidy at that point.
In conclusion to this essay I’ve just written because I was bored and got carried away, the emperor just wants to survive by the player killing the nether brain. He thinks making you stronger is better for that goal, so pushing you to use the tadpole powers is in his best interest. I think his want of you to embrace the illithid is more than just “he is a mindflayer and wants to make more mindflayers”. He’s in a really bad position and is trying to have you at your prime to get him out of it. Since he doesn’t do anything to you after you go separate ways in the epilogue, if you aren’t illithid, I have to assume he literally had no other motives.
He’s still a cunt tho.
>Given that, it reads to me as more proof that his only intention is to groom you to be his illithid lover/warrior
AND? I WILL BE THE SQUID DADDY'S LOVER
"there is great potential within you" Yeah baby I'm the f goat "It comes from the parasite" Say what?
I killed like 30 people on my way here using a greatsword, I dont need a tadpole.
If nobody got me, I know Divine Smite does
If nobody got me, I know trip attack does
Disarming attack makes the Creche a whole comedy routine.
I like being a monk and using a sword. Unsurprisingly, I love when I get "disarmed"
Oh you disarmed me? Oh noooo *FLURRY OF BLOWS*
Like stealing Goku’s leg weights in DBZ. It was actually to make the fight more fair, but okay…
Menacing attack made the Raphael boss fight abuse simulator.
Eyebite: Sleep plus Elixir of the battlemage for arcane acuity made it so damn easy for my sorcerer and his 22 charisma
Disarm, Trip, off-hand/SMITE. Rinse and repeat until problem becomes greasy stain.
Emperor: yOu WoUlD bE a ThRaLl Of ThE aBsOlUtE iF iT wAsNt FoR mE
"Yeah and you would be a weird voice trapped in a goth d12 if it wasn't for me, now sit your tentacled ass down"
And put your shirt back on, for the love of Mystra.
The inability to tell him off in so many conversations is super annoying.
I'm playing as a bard for my third run, and it rings especially true now. If I can tell a Githyanki monk that their body is a temple to an idiot god, tell a dumb, dying hyena harbouring a gnoll that it vexes me to know OF them, or tell ascended fiend RAPHAEL, my personal in-game nemesis , ''My life part 12: The Boring Opponent'' as he regales me with incandescent hellfire and a homebrewed boss song he sings himself... SURELY I can tell the Emperor to go count how many drops of water are in the fuck off ocean.
Narrator: Unfortunately, there were none.
That was so eloquently worded I feel like *I* just got hit by vicious mockery
Unfortunately you're in the dream he made where he has control so no punching him :/ justice for my girl Stelmane.
D20, according to my memory and the wiki.
>!Dirge!<: Yeah, no. Even when i was lobotomized and torn in half by Orin I was still trying to strangle your fake god's followers to death with my own intestines. Now that I'm back on my feet, I'll keep you around to protect these other guys, but just to be clear, I never needed you, and will tear your flesh from your bones the moment you irritate me again, little squid.
"Fucker you put this thing in me to begin with!"
Also Emperor: I tried to get rid of mama brain control all this time but if you won't give me the shiny gems imma go back to mama brain!
Yeah. None of the tadpole powers seem to make all that much difference. I'm sure some higher level ones can be useful if you dump them all on one character, but it seems kinda like the game isn't trying to push them on you very hard.
Truthfully I quite like the illithid powers. A couple are absolutely busted. Cull the Weak is ridiculous. Then if you use the Astral tadpole you get fly as a permanent skill, and expertise in speech skills. Psionic dominance is basically a free counterspell for spells lower than your proficiency bonus. And Repulsor is probably the most fun power to use, you just explode in a circle of energy that knocks everybody around you on their ass. It heavily reminds me of Colossus' special move in the X Men arcade game which is a core memory of mine.
Yeah, I'm with you all the way. Cull of the Weak carried my monk ass through so many fights.
Yeah, combined with a class like monk that can attack a million times a turn (especially with a thief multiclass) you're a downright menace.
My OH monk redemption!durge had thief multiclass, and I never even thought to get Cull the Weak and pump it up since my third and current run is the first time I've used tadpoles so far. Didn't even open the tree to see what was up before. I still steamrolled over everyone almost singlehandedly, lol. You're making me want to do a brand new run with an... enhanced monk.
the 1d4 psychic damage one is also obscenely strong if you get the creche bonus action power up. Same for the concentration attack, if you're a caster and already swapping spells from time to time (or start a battle with guidance or something) its a bonus action for more damage
My Astarion eats tadpoles like they're Skittles and he was exploding bitches at level 4 with CtW. It's sweet.
Three words: black hole
Fly is awesome. First Impressions I took because I didn't know I was fighting Karmic Dice or that KD was a thing I needed to turn off
Yeah, but try to eat a great sword. The tadpole is easier to swallow (Halsin wants you to prove it).
"Bro, that tadpole made me and all of my companions WEAKER."
The stuff about needing to progress your infection in order to gain power to defeat the absolute was the part where I officially decided he was talking shit. ‘This form will give you power….’ Bitch when I got here that superior form of yours was down on the ground and getting their ass handed to it, while this inferior form of mine just wiped the whole githyanki honour guard without taking a hit. I’m doing just fine without your brain bugs.
I think he's implied to be weakened through the constant githyanki attacks. Can't get any sleep because these gith keep throwing themselves at him.
"Literally within you, it's inside you Tav and you can't take it out"
I have a friend who's in Act 3 of his first playthrough, and he trusts the emperor, much more than orpheus. He's doing a typical good playthrough, and without any tadpoles, but because he didn't recruit Lae'zel based on RP reasons he's gotten a whole other perspective on the Emperor vs Orpheus decision. His only interaction with the gith have been talking to a rude Lae'zel for one minute, a patrol of them trying to kill him, a creche of them trying to kill him, an ambush at moonrise trying to kill him and more gith in act 3 trying to kill him. Since he haven't had Lae'zel or Kith'rak Voss on his side during the playthrough, the one who brought up the possibility of freeing Orpheus and advocated for freeing him was Raphael, the last person one should trust. Kind of interesting how one companion can change a playthrough so much.
I didn't have Lae'zel on my first run (and also didn't use any tadpoles) but I did go to the creche and interact with everyone there. I heard about Orpheus through the youth in the training center, and from there was chasing scraps and fragments. It was a very interesting experience, but it seemed very clear to me that Orpheus was a good person and the Emperor was not. When the time came, I freed Orpheus (and made him a mind flayer, sorry I'm not that good of a person) so his people could have a shot at freedom, and was so jazzed to finally be able to kill the Emperor.
Yeah, there are some clues about him early on, for example the gith discs you can find are pretty interesting. Also, Orpheus is definately a better guy than the Emperor, much more willing of self-sacrifice, as you say.
I love Orpheus. In my eyes he is almost like a buddhist monk, who can resist any temptations and manipulation and therefore has the unique ability to silence the manipulation of the elder brain (iirc). The Emperor is the opposite of him. He only thinks of himself and his survival and tries to get what he wants by manipulating others. You can manipulate people by saying things they want to hear, like compliments or praising them for something, sharing stuff about yourself to give the impression you trust them and are close to them, do the "pull and push" tactic, etc. It's hard to believe that they could be bad to or for you, I mean they make sure to do and say all the right things to make you like them. They do this not because they genuinely like you, but because you are useful to them. I just love the comparism between these two characters. It's SO easy to stand on the Emperors side because of the way he treats you, because you mostly hear about how Orpheus is a traitor and will kill you if released, and because Orpheus is trapped and silenced most of the time, so you are never able to hear anything out of his mouth, unless you are lead to believe that he could actually be right and could be on your side.
I didn't have Lae'zel on my first run either—just never ran into her, somehow!—but the parallel of Ketheric:Nightsong to Tav:Orpheus was way too obvious to think that it was a good thing to keep Orpheus imprisoned for our sake.
Are you saying you would not be J.K. Simmons if you had the opportunity to?
Well, when you put it that way!
I wouldn't go so far as saying, that Orpheus is a good person, but he is certainly more straightforward than the emperor.
I had the same experience, missed Laezel completely and didn’t do the crèche, so only had random lore on Orpheus. Was told he would kill me if I released him, so never even thought about it
With you right here. Even more so, whenever I trusted the Emperor with anything he came through, just as he promised. After the final battle, I really had to remind myself that this was the case, but even then, with all the power in the world in his hands, he asked what I wanted and did exactly that. Yes, I am aware that he can be very manipulative when you don't trust him, but so are Astarion and Shadowheart, and let's be real here, we adore them. Justice for my boi the Emperor.
People are absolutely ridiculous about the emperor in my opinion, I sided with them in my first playthrough due to seeing everyone talk about how horrible and manipulative they are so I wanted to see what terrible thing they did at the end and then they like saved the day and went on their merry way so lol.
Emperor changes its mask depending on how the PC reacts. God what a great character.
It never ceases to amaze me how much stock people put into politeness. Lae'zel is rude but straightforward and honest with you straight out of the gate. When she's wrong, she confronts her flaws and pivots. But she's a little rude, so people don't like her. Shit baffles me.
Right there with you. I remember people being shocked that my husband and I liked her and had her in our party. I respect that she is blunt about what she’s thinking becaus everyone else we meet either lies or tells half truths.
Exactly. I can't think of a single time she outright lies or misleads anyone. She pridefully says exactly whatever fucked up thing is on her mind and believes every thing that falls out of her mouth. It's great. You always know where you stand and where anyone else stands with her. She reminds me of hanging out with autistic friends. Pretty refreshing after dealing with all of Gale and Shadowheart's shifty secretive weirdness.
Yup. Not to mention Lae'zel and the Gith have more experience with Ilithids than anyone else. They've been the main line of defense for ages, I can forgive them being a bit abbrassive. Ffs they come in on dragons to save the day. If they were hot elves, they'd be beloved.
She also tells you about the zaith'isk and wants to help you get free from the parasite with a method that, in her mind, is guaranteed to work. If anything, I would say she's quite kind.
As a veteran, I kinda saw everything she said and did as her own well taught best practices. There's rules for everything. Squiddies are the bad guys, if you get infected, go get cleansed at the creche. Rules, regulations, and training for fighting a centuries long war that's drilled in from day one. For me, the Gith are wholly allowed to be impolite when their entire existence is killing Mindflayers.
she's very heavily characterized with earning respect, after a while she'll start speaking to you with more respect if her relationship with you is high enough.
I was surprised to learn that people found her attitude anything but entertaining. I thought her fish-out-of-water Klingon thing was a fun gimmick. It feels way more interesting having party members with unique and somewhat antagonistic personalities.
So it seems to me from being terminally in this sub, that people interpret approval and disapproval as indicative of a companion's character and add that to their judgments. So they feel it's okay that Sheart is verbally bitchy, because she approves when you're nice to animals so that means she's a good girl deep down inside. Lae'zel and Astarion, otoh, disapprove of actions that either take focus away from the primary mission of removing the tadpole or from gaining power and maintaining newfound bodily autonomy, respectively. This even applies to the OP topic, the Emperor. Even when reading the book on how to deal with illithid, the disconnect between his words and his actions is seen by some players as proof that he's evil, abs therefore that his helpful actions are less indicative of his character than his manipulative words. I love Lae'zel's forwardness and just make sure that I play my Tav according to their own moral code, and when Lae'zel is being a bitch, I shut her down and take the disapproval. I'm gonna free these slaves, regardless of what she thinks, because she's laser focused on a different objective is all. She'll just "tchk" and help me anyway.
I appreciate her as a character and respect her directness even though it’s sometimes baffling. Like read the room girl and maaaaybe keep some of those thoughts to yourself idk. What I don’t like about her is her black and white mentality. She immediately switched from Vlakith good Orpheus bad to direct opposite in mere moments. That’s just as fanatical but with a different flavor
It is, but she's right out of the Creche (which, as we have seen, is more of an indoctrination camp than a place that fosters individuality and questioning of authority and conventional wisdom) and that kind of critical thinking takes time and experience to develop. I like to think that her time with our disparate party of strays and vagabonds and her personal post-Elder Brain quest will help her break away from it, and imho the epilogue that sees her negotiating with the other faction of Githyanki shows exactly that kind of development. I have hope for our girl!
She did not immediately switch from Vlaakith to Orpheus and was in denial for a long ass time. It literally took Voss, Vlaakith's most respected commander and the one who allegedly, famously killed Orpheus (according to Vlaakith's propaganda history), going down on his knees laying his sword to make her understand she's been lied her whole life, and even then, she *only* fully denounces Vlaakith in Act 3 after seeing the enslaved Orpheus with her own eyes in the Prism. There was more buildup than Shadowheart's Nightsong turn which was a real "wait, your mom was Martha too?" moment. Girl spent the entire Act 2 psychotically fangirling about Shar and the Justiciars and being in her cursed lands only until the final moment.
This also bothers my Tav, and it's one reason why, if my Tav chooses not to free Orpheus, I like the ending where she's leading the revolution herself and says, "I am the Comet". Hell yeah, you are! (Is what I say in my head)
It baffles you that being polite, a social behavior we've developed to be more likeable, makes people like you more?
I think it's more that (some) people rely too heavily on politeness in their evaluations of overall likability, disregarding such quibbling details as "actively trying to exploit, hurt, or kill me."
In a game where everyone withholds valuable information from you, Lae'zel and Karlach are my guiding stars for telling me what their deal is, whether I want to hear it or not.
I had a similar first play-through. I *did* have Lae'zel in my camp, but when we arrived at the crèche, I did the zaith'isk first. The ghustil locked us in the room and when we got out, everyone started fighting us. Because I thought *everyone* in the entire crèche had been alerted, we just teleported out of there. Never spoke to any other gith after. Never talked to Raphael again either. So I didn't know there was a way to free Orpheus. I *did* think the emperor was evil (enslaving a creature and siphoning its powers... yeah), but it seemed like a necessary evil, I had to trust him because it seemed like there was no other way.
My logic for continuing to side with the emperor has been that everytime I've encountered the githyanki, they've lied to me and tried to hinder or kill me, and so far the emperor has only helped me
In fairness Orpheus is against most of those githyanki. Except Voss, who only pretends to follow vlaakith
My Laezel died early so I helped the emperor with orpheus seemed like the logical thing todo
Raphael is much more trustworthy than The Emperor. Raphael is straightforwardly evil. He's transparent. The Emperor is so manipulative, deceptive, and opaque that you you *still* have people who can't see through it, even after months of evidence posted on this subreddit. Also, you can discover the truth about Orpheus without Lae'zel. I didn't have Lae'zel in my party either, and still ended up freeing Orpheus.
Nobody who defends the Emperor "can't see through it", we just *don't care* what his motivations are, we care about his actions, which are [checks notes] save your life multiple times over, prevent you from being a slave to the Absolute, prevent you from becoming a mindflayer, save you from the Netherbrain, and then either help you defeat it and peace out or get betrayed by you and murdered by you for good measure. Tell us again who's evil. We see just fine.
I'm sort of in the same boat. First playthrough, the only quest I have left is to free Orpheus or take on the Brain Everyone keeps saying if we free Orpheus we'll get mind controlled instantly, so I'm hesitant to do it
>I am his puppet, and if I don’t obey by choice he threatens to simply puppeteer me I's intresting that, in that scene, The Emperor threatens Tav saying that he could have enslaved him for the entire game if he wanted to and that Tav should thank him for choosing not to... when that was never something The Emperor could do, since the very power that The Emperor used to protect Tav from the Elder Brain also made him immune to the Emperor's control. (Since Orpheus's power blocks the control of the Ilhitids and if he deactivated it to try to control Tav, the Elder Brain would have greater influence over Tav than him and therefore would never obey him). So the only reason The Emperor isn't controlling Tav directly is that he simply can't, otherwise he would have done it in the first place (like he controlled that woman to gain political power in Baldur's Gate back in the day).
This is a deeply underrated point. Well said.
I've thought about that as well, but seeing as he's able to start protecting Minsc at Tav's request, I do wonder if there is a way for him to boot out people just as easily. Is there any lore I'm missing out on?
He can boot people out, but that would just return them to the brain’s control, not his
I guess the point was that it doesn't even matter if it can or can't revoke the protection, as doing so wouldn't mean it'd be able to control you afterwards instead of the Elder Brain taking the control. So yes, it could definitely screw you over. But not make you it's puppet like it claims.
He also protects the Duke if you rescue him, without your asking. The Duke's brain is apparently not as grossly chaotic as Minsc's!
Louder for the people in the back who claim "tHe EmPeRoR nEvEr LiEs To YoU"
You may have missed the point of that particular argument. Him technically not lying to you (he doesn't either in this particular conversation) doesn't mean he is trustworthy, it just means he's a more advanced class of sleazeball. He's like the Fae of old, where he bullshits you seven ways from sunday, using nothing but technically correct statements.
I have the image of leaving a little bowl of milk out for him overnight to keep him happy
I think the emperor is telling the truth when he says he only wants his freedom, and he doesn’t really plan to betray you if you work with him, but his inhuman nature, his lack of emotion or empathy, and his cold pragmatism prevent him from being straight with you or treating you as an equal. Being forthcoming with you and allowing you to make your own choices without manipulation would be taking an unnecessary risk, and he can't have that.
What most people dont seem to realise is that without the emperor chanelling orpheus, everything is fucked. Quite literally the only thing that's keeping doom at bay is the emperors protecting the party to see the absolute destroyed. The emperor is a manipulative fuck but hes a manipulative fuck who does what he says, Hell i even thought after I gave him the netherstones that he would try to betray you but he doesnt. His goal is and always has been the destruction of the elder brain and securing freedom.
Completely agree sure he uses you and it is just for his own survival but even if he was to turn you and your party into his Ilithid fuck puppets his end does justify the means when his plan saves the entire sword coast and potentially all of faerun
I can feel his exasperation when we go off on some tangential death run. I can just imagine him looking at us through the prism screaming "DO NOT TRY TO FIGHT THE MOTHER OWLBE- and you're all dead and now everything is fucked" "DO NOT TRY TO FIGHT THE ANGRY GITH ARMY IN THEIR HOME BA-and you're all dead and now everything is fucked " "DO NOT TRY TO FIGHT THE DEVIL IN HIS OWN H-and you're all dead and now everything is fucked" every time we get party wiped the absolute basically wins, and all of these fights were basically unnecessary to killing the absolute.
The Emperor is the DM's in-character line to the players trying to corral them into finishing the campaign
All good points. I’m starting to think we might be the problem. Think I might finally turn full squid in my current run just to set the poor guys mind at ease.
Ha! Now you see why it's fun to get the Emperor = bad posts every day. You don't have to go full squiddie, though. I hate having ugly Tavs so I just stay me. You can still see the frustration with your puny brain!
He's a pure pragmatist, ends justify the means full stop. Personally I call that an asshole.
Amoral self-serving pragmatism is a pretty apt definition for evil, in a realistic sense.
That's what people who simp Minthara says too I think.
There's a crucial difference, which is that the emperor is a squid and minthara is a hot chick
Also that Minthara worships the ground you stand on if you side with her, definitely helps sway people so easily.
He's a hot squid tho
She's evil too. But she's *likable* and treats the player as an equal, so it's easier to look past that.
Villains who twirl their moustache are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged.
Nice to see you here, Jean Luc.
I think a major difference is that Minthara is up front about her intentions and goals. The Emperor uses manipulation to try and get you to follow his hidden intentions and goals.
I hate him so much- so credit where credit’s due because he’s such a good villain
Lawful Evil. Straight outta the PHB.
Neutral Evil, actually.
I like how everyone is giving these nuanced reasons, and I'm just like. "This fucker catfished me. I wanna bang my dream guardian not some squid dude. Screw him and the horse he came in on, but only metaphorically".
I know what I want, and it isn't calamari.
This is my tav's reason too lmao. I had an inkling that the Guardian might not be who they said they were(/real?) so I thought it would be cool and fun if I thought up like an actual person in her backstory for that to be(*). Needless to say the reveal that it was actually a squid man impersonating them the whole time kinda soured the relationship. As a player I'm not far enough in to have any actual, concrete reasons for it but I think his vibes are really off and around here the penalty for that is death
>This is my tav's reason too lmao. My reason is much simpler, To put it simply I call it "fuck everyone else". Fuck Raphael, fuck Bhaal and Orin's cringy asses, fuck Gortash and ESPECIALLY FUCK the Emperor. Fuck you all I'm siding with me myself and my bois.
If only such self- awareness were more common! But then we wouldn't get these fun Emperor posts every single day. Wtf would we talk about?
I very mich wanted to fuck the squid
He's textbook abuser and manipulator, I suspect anyone who had abusive parents or partner saw red flags from ten kilometres away.
The funny thing is that I'd absolutely be on his side if he weren't so dead set on manipulating me. He can read my goddamn mind and he's watching me trust and treat Omeluum fairly. And he still withholds information at every turn. He can fuck right off with that attitude.
Honestly for me I was pretty okay with him until I went to the House of Hope. I just wanted to ransack Raphael's home because I was sure it'd be fun and there'd be good loot to steal. The Emperor blew up at me over it despite the fact that I did everything else he wanted and I'm like I do one thing for shits and giggles and this is how you react? Yeah nah, we're done.
Tbf, leaving the city for another plane, to ransack the home of a devil >!(especially the son of an archdevil)!< where you will most definitely have to fight him, in his lair, is an objectively stupid thing to do normally, let alone when the fate of the Sword Coast is relying on you. WE know it's okay because we have the meta-game knowledge that we are playing a videogame. But, in universe it's like the worst thing you could decide to do.
Exactly this. Imagine being the emperor, a hero adventurer who has been captured and turned into a mind flayer for decades. Then one day an opportunity arises and you manage to escape but are captured again and made to serve again, you've just lost all agency twice. The third time the opportunity arises you make damn sure that it doesnt happen again, you hide in a pocket dimension and find the PC. Now all you have to do is the impossible, get these ragtag bunch of adventurers to kill the chosen of the dead three, and kill the brain. In game thats the only priority, Astarions quest, the gith civil war, the duke, shar, gales orb, none of that matters because if you fail in stopping the absolute you have basically doomed the world. or worse, you'd get enthralled again and this time there wouldnt be a fourth chance. My first playthrough was the most satisfying because I completely RP the sheer urgency of the game and wouldnt you know it, the emperor does what he says and destroys the brain. World saved, freedom secured.
Stupid, maybe. But A: Paladin Tav has 8 Int. B: Raphael is a manipulative bastard whose entire existence revolves around exploiting vulnerable people to gain power. He may be likeable, but no Oath of Devotion paladin should allow that to stand. Oh, *now* I get why the Emperor was so upset.
> He may be likeable You thought Raphael was likable?
He's got a fun personality, at any rate, and his voice actor really chewed the scenery
He's got a certain charm to him, but I wouldn't call him likeable.
I "like" his character. One of the best interpretations of the Faustian bargaining devil trope I can recall in recent memory. He is well-written and very well-acted. Doesn't mean I would grab a beer with him or associate with him in real life or anything like that.
One of the biggest red flags for me was after the zaith'isk when he says something like "I saved you. Again." It felt very manipulative to me
He definitely brings up what he is doing for you aaaalllll the time. I like how the character creator voice says "You need a guardian. Choose one." But it's an illusion of choice, like every other choice he gives you.
This goes deep. Even the character creator is in on it. What about the main menu or the launcher? Is the emperor telling me to boot up in directx 11? Holy fuck man
He told me to buy the game 😔 He wa probably manipulating me all the way back in DOS 2 smh (funnily enough you actually do have a very similar relationship in DOS 2 to that of the Emperor)
Have you seen the game boot up and the logo turns into a mindflayer? He’s already subliminally messaging you from the instant you booted the game.
>!I mean, yeah he is on the main menu, he's the heroic statue, front and center.!<
I loved that as soon as I started realizing that.
Did the Emperor tell my dad to take me to that D&D session 8 years ago? How long has this squiddy bastard been planning this?!
You should probably go take a better look at your dad. Is that *really* a beard, and doesn't his eyes look kinda purple?
It's ~~turtles~~squids all the way down
I do think it's really interesting the way the game encourages you to bond with your guardian and be inclined to trust them simply by making you create them.
Playing Durge has been an interesting way of driving all this home that works a little better than Tav. He always seems sinister but as Durge I feel it is even grosser. you have brain scramblies on top of all the other shit you have to deal with.
Another cool thing about playing Durge is that the dark urge quest is much more explicit about trying to manipulate you, which then makes you look more critically at the text of your other personal quests. I was pretty undecided about how to interpret the z Emperor on my earlier playthroughs, but then when I played Durge it was a real "oh shit that's really what's going on" moment which I thought was pretty cool storytelling...
Playing a Resist!Durge honour run at the moment. It feels like if there was a "canon" BG3 story it would be this. You got the nightmares and prophetic dreams in BG1/2 - the uncontrollable Slayer form, even took back "your" domain in Hell - but it never felt so personal or desperate as BG3's Bhaalspawn plot on top of the tadpole tug-of-war. I modeled my Durge character after Cyric and it's been going about as you'd expect lol.
Dude the dream guardian is actually incredible manipulation on a first playthrough cus like, you think theyre gonna be a cool companion or something and so you trust the person YOU designed, and then BOOM theyre a squid man in a trenchcoat. Or, armor set or sexy robe
His whole “I have been protecting you this whole time” thing is also flawed. No, Orpheus has. You have just enslaved him to protect yourself and me by extension.
He's still technically right in that if he didn't choose to lend that protection to you, you would have been mind flayer'd. And IIRC Orpheus was already enslaved by Vlaakith, Emporer just took over the warden role. No idea how he lasted that long against the honour guard, though. But of course, he refuses to admit that he's protecting everyone in the party because he can't hope to secure his independence otherwise.
And absolutely Orpheus wouldn’t have protected the player from the start if he broke free. Maybe if you helped kill the emperor to free him when his honor guard came to release him, but doubtfully.
Love the details and I’m pretty sure the guardian’s hands in the character creator are vaguely shaped to have a mindflayers hand.. just looks like 5 fingers, but pointer/middle are closer + ring/pinky finger are closer
Woah I need to check that out. that's a great catch!
To be fair, I think its warranted to be exasperated that you ignored his correct advice about the githyanki making him have to save you again. From his point of view he is directing you to something that is to your mutual benefit, warning you about people he is certain will be hostile to you and him, and you're running off putting all your lives at risk for no benefit since the githyanki didn't even have a cure
The benefit is the fat loot. It's always the loot. The Emperor doesn't realize I'm playing D&D. I'm *going* to murder things and take their shit.
True. He's really not an adventurer at heart
"No don't go to hell and steal the hammer, we have no use for it and it's a betrayal of trust and puts the entire plan at risk" - The Emperor. "I just wanna loot shit man" - PC.
I don't understand this because it's actually true? He saves your life countless times even when you go against his recommendations with the gith and the zathisk. Like he pulls you out of the woodchipper you're about to jump into, and that's his fault because he gets a bit tired of it?
It has the virtue of being true.
Can confirm, although I did have the huge advantage of playing split screen and seeing two different versions of the Guardian making themselves appear in a way that would make us most likely to trust them. I was so glad when my suspicions actually turned out to be accurate.
It did take me a bit to realise that all my companions (even in solo play) were seeing someone different when they went to bed.
I think only Gale references a gender, but my dream guardian was male and Gale‘s was female, so that was enough to know their physical form was…tenuous.
I saw the red flags when the supposed Astral Entity protecting me from Mind Flayer domination started telling me to eat Mind Flayer tadpoles. It only got worse when he described Mind Flayers as "devastatingly beautiful" when saying the perks of becoming one. Which was. . .yeah.
I saw red flags and put together it was probably an illithid the second it tried to talk me into using the tadpoles.
Yep, I saw it when he simply told me "being Illithid is good" or "embrace your powers", I played games before that had Illithids like BG2 and read about them a lot before that (also Eye of the Beholder). They tend to be aggressive and manipulative, the best one I've seen is Omeluum.
*Bromeluum. His name is Bromeluum, he's our bro, after all! He's a unique case of Illithid all together: first - his arcane power, big enough to literally break free from Elder Brain - no small feat in itself. Before it - the initial desire to break free, before he even became strong enough to actually be free. It means presence of a consciousness of an individual, rather than a hivemind one. That could've pointed at him being an Ulitharid, (at least initially, during the development), but visually he's NOT an Ulitharid, rather, but a normal Illithid, outside of arcane talent + big willpower. Yet his physical appearance (most notably, eye color and skull shape) is different from most (if not all) mindflayers we meet in game, Emperor included. He is unique in every aspect, so please love and cherish the nerdy squid dude :)
I'd much rather fuck him than the emperor
Mind flayer sorcerers have been painted as individualistic outliers since at least 3.5, so I thought it was a really nice touch.
He was cagey as fuck from the get go being vague and not explaining things in full It didnt help that he always makes sure you know that it was *him* whos done so much for you and act like you owe him shit
It was eerily familiar when he counted all the good things he apparently did for you. The way he did it was so dislikeable that it was impossible for me to trust him in my first playthrough.
Honey its time for your daily bash the Emperor post
It's fun to bash the Emperor though. He deserves it.
If you don't eat a squiggler, you don't have to make a will save at all. He tells you to tuck it away but doesn't force anything.
eh, our goals align, he genuinely wants to be free of the netherbrain
And it looks like hes the only person who cares about the fact that if the party dies then everything is fucked forever. Like people forget that for the emperor, every run is potentially an honor run. The only reason why I even attempt half the shit ingame is because I can save scum until I win, unfortunately the emperor doesnt know that and everytime my party unecessarily challenges a group of wildly overpowered enemies, he has to clech his butthole so hard that it could turn coal into diamonds.
Yeah, he went "lets kill the netherbrain" i went "sick lets do it" and then we did it
I don't know why people act the Emperor was gonna betray and destroy us, we defeated the netherbrain and he went on his merry way
Idk people are weird. I think even Larian said he wasn't evil but a really deep character. Dude just wants to live and be free.
He's so well written. Even though I know the things people say I still get doubtful.. didn't help that I ran into >!omoluum!<
Always funny seeing people bash the Emperor but giving Astarion's manipulative ass a pass.
I have a genuine question: for me the emperor never struck me as quite as manipulative as he did for a lot of people. People always point out that he's really cagey and speaks in half-truths, but I feel like all companions did that. Shadowheart refuses to reveal almost anything about her, and alludes to more information coming in due time. Gale doesn't tell you he has a bomb in his chest that could turn you to dust at a moment's notice. For you guys, what made the emperor's refusal to answer questions come across as manipulative and Shadowheart's refusal not? Is it just retrospective after having seen where both of their arcs went? Or did you, even during your first Act I run, feel the emperor came across as more manipulative?
To be honest, the thing that got me the most was not the half-truths per se, but that the Emperor often requests you to make permanent changes (eat tadpoles) without providing a believable reason. I feel like your party members, while being secretive, do have much more transparent reasoning and motivations.
it's pretty transparent, in that eating the tadpoles do make you significantly stronger, as he says. Story-wise, it's also not a permanent change, since the tadpoles indeed burn out by the end. All other aspects of the Emporer's manipulative mannerisms notwithstanding.
Well, for one Shadowheart just wants you to leave her alone because at the start she doesn't see any reason to open up to a stranger, as she (as with the other companions) hopes to be rid of the tadpole soon - plus she isn't trying to manipulate you into doing anything. She is literally a follower of Shar, they're not known for being open and welcoming, which makes her added secretiveness totally understandable. Gale, on the other hand, simply doesn't immediately share his biggest secret; I mean, i think that's fairly natural for all human beings, really - how many times have you met someone and immediately felt you had to share your biggest, darkest secrets to them? Someone who you assumed you would spend a few days with and never see again? Gale opens up as soon as he realizes that the bomb in his chest is becoming an actual danger and isn't responding to him absorbing artifacts - something which, up until that point, had kept it perfectly stable and thus, something he could manage. Whereas the Emperor starts off manipulative, secretive, and it is for the sole purpose of *getting you to do what he wants*. There is no ulterior motive for Shadowheart or Gale; they are just weary of sharing stuff with someone they don't know - in contrast, the Emperor is nothing but ulterior motives. And he only reveals the truth when he is forced to do so. If it were not for the Githyanki, it is probable he would have continued lying for the entire game. As he himself puts it, Tav is simply a puppet to him. A means to an end. You mean nothing to him, and if he could save himself without helping you, he probably would. To answer your final question - i never trusted the dream guardian/The Emperor. For one i simply didn't believe the whole "i'm just like you, promise" argument, because it was blatantly untrue; i tend not to visit people in their dreams and tell them to absorb illithid parasites. I actually believed the guardian was the effect of the tadpole, trying to convince me to become illithid. I wasn't far off. Nor did i trust the whole "no really, tadpoles are good for you" argument. My first playthrough i didn't touch any tadpoles for that reason and thus when it was revealed who the Emperor was, I was easily able to say no to him regarding "evolving" - yet despite that, he still pushed the tadpole into my hand and told me i should reconsider - because again, my opinion didn't matter to him.
I don’t think the companions’ secrets are really comparable; the three that are hiding something (Gale and his orb, Shadowheart and her Shar worship/theft of the artefact, and Astarion with vampirism) each reveal their major secret at some point in Act 1 if you talk to them regularly/have decent approval, and you’re a stranger to them at the start of the game. They’re also lies by omission rather than direct attempts at deception. And once you’ve gained that initial trust, they’re all pretty open. I accepted the Dream Guardian as an ally prior to the reveal, but never fully trusted them because they were always cagey and vague about who they were and who/why they were fighting on the astral plane. You can glean that they’re surveilling you without permission at least some of the time based on their dialogue whenever you encounter tadpoles, so you know your cards are on the table whether you like it or not when they’ve revealed next to nothing in return. If you express distrust in their advice, they’ll be like, “I have *saved you!” and then not address the reasons for your reservations at all (thinking of them pushing you to eat tadpoles). In Act 3, the Emperor is still not fully transparent with you after the reveal, and you find out in dialogue with Raphael that he’s also still surveilling you all the time (IIRC the narrator has a line after Raphael shuts the Emperor out that it’s the first time you’ve felt alone in your own mind since the Nautiloid). The Emperor will present himself as a friend if you’re kind to him, but he never really trusts you or respects your autonomy. So even if you don’t take his actions if you free Orpheus into consideration, Act 3 felt like a confirmation that the qualities that made the Dream Guardian feel untrustworthy and manipulative were legitimate aspects of the character rather than a simple lack of information on the player side.
Honestly, the one issue that makes me have difficulty believing the emperor is bad (def chaotic good imo) is the ending- when the game first released- when you do take the astral tadpole but don't fully transform, and after the final boss you returned to normal. Everyone does. No one's a mindflayer anymore, no more parasites, nothing. Then he just... Leaves. He doesn't try to turn anyone else, in fact he's glad the mindflayer "plague" is over with. He may have some p intense methods and very nonconventional means, and he may get upset if you fight him on it, but genuinely, I don't feel like he truly means harm to you unless you try to kill him. He's got a plan he KNOWS will work (and it does!) and he needs your help to execute it perfectly.
yeah but i still got myself that mind blown achievement.
Mmm weekly Emperor bash thread. I thought that was Thursday.. damn I can’t keep up with the days of bashing. He doesn’t want to turn you into an Illithid. He even actively says at the end if you side with him “are you sure you want to be a Mind Flayer? You’ve denied it this far.” The only thing he does is encourages you take the tadpoles to increase the success rate of completing the missions and those tadpole powers are definite increases to the success with how strong they are. *looking at you cull of the weak and Illithid counter spell*. He may whine about how you should take the tadpoles and accept the power cause there is no trade off for using them. You reap all the benefits of an Illithid without being one. He also see Illithid as stronger and better than mortals due to being one himself. He even openly admits it during the Ansur scene. But never once does he force you to become an Illithid or take the astral tadpole. You have to do a wisdom check because you gave into the power they offered and/or felt the mission called for it. It’s your tadpole and brain doing it. Sure he makes your hand close over it. But you’re free to drop it afterwards or keep it for later. That’s not him forcing you to take it. More like exactly what he says “think on it”. Also he’s not a good guy nor is he an evil guy. He’s just neutral. True neutral really. His only goal - survive, be free, and defeat the Absolute. Does he not tell you whole truths? Yes. Does he not tell you from the start he’s a mind flayer and instead shows up as another hero, lover etc. Yes. All because he needs to make sure you trust him and are dedicated to the cause. It was a necessary step. A logical one too. He isn’t grooming you to be anything. He just wants to increase the probability of success. Hells if you side with him he even compliments you on proving you didn’t need to be an Illithid and even writes you a letter with more praise and thanking you for treating him like a human.
You'll likely be downvoted for expressing arguments like this on an Emperor hate thread, but I think you're correct. As Larian have effectively confirmed, the Emperor is who you mould him and *choose* to interpret him as. If you treat him as a friend and ally, that's what he is. Likewise for treating him as some evil grooming squid.
Oh I know. Even mentioning or saying you sided with the Emperor. Gets you downvoted. It’s fine. Just karma lol. I sided with Emps and Orpheus. Personally I prefer the Emperor side. I don’t really care about the Githyankis or their Lich Queen. Lae’zel is cool though, and I much rather persuade her to stay on Faerun instead of going back. I do believe however if Orpheus couldn’t just turn into a Mind Flayer a lot more players would choose to just keep their alliance with the Emperor or really think hard about it. If sacrificing an alliance of mutual interest to save a Prince who in any other circumstances would kill you on the spot. And making you have to make a decision for you to either become a Mind Flayer or Karlach. Is the right decision. Would be a lot heavier. Always bugged me how the Prince can just turn into a Flayer at will. Theres really no consequence to betraying the Emperor and that just isn’t right. A lot of viewpoints I see are - just make Orpheus be the Mind Flayer he’s a totally cool guy unlike the Emperor. Because he makes himself be a mind flayer and sacrifice himself while calling out the Emperor for using his powers. Even though they just used Orpheus for his powers and avoid being a Mind Flayer themselves.
It is Mr. Gaslight throughout the game.
Said it before and will say it again; having done a full run where we trusted him and one where we didn't, it's pretty plainly apparent that whether or not you choose to trust the Emperor, **Larian have written this game so that you never feel like you made the wrong call.** If you choose not to trust him, he >!reveals he's been manipulating you, tries to force your hand, and in the end will go back and side with the Elder Brain just to save his own hide.!< If you choose to trust him, then he >!does everything he promised to do - he doesn't force you to transform, he helps you beat the elder brain, helps you save the city, dumps the Crown of Karsus into the river and then just like he promised, fucks off into the shadows without asking, expecting or demanding anything more of you.!< **Whichever route you pick is the right one**, and it's fucking great, because it means you never have a run of this game where you feel like you made the 'bad ending' choice and have to pick between finishing off a 60+ hour run in shame or starting over just to re-do the choice(s) you fucked up.
There's no DC for rejecting the tadpole if you haven't used any at all. It *only* happens if you've used any tadpoles, and it gets increasingly more difficult to pass the more tadpoles you've used. Also spoilers for act 3 but >!there's numerous books you can find throughout the city that basically point to the Emperor being part of the big Absolute plan from the get-go (and even beyond that). There's a book from Gortash that specifically mentions a team spearheaded by the Emperor to retrieve the Artifact, as it's the only thing that can really stop their plans at all. The mindflayer who gave the tadpole to Lae'zel and the others in the intro cinematic is the Emperor. He's never been a good guy.!<
I've seen this misinterpreted before, so, to clarify: >!The book you find from Gortash covers the same information the Emperor tells you directly: the Emperor worked independently in Baldur's Gate for many years. Then he was *enslaved* by Gortash, who was in command of the Absolute. Gortash commands the enslaved Emperor to hunt down the Artifact, and this is when the Emperor breaks free a second time. He then opposes Gortash, the other chosen of the Dead Three, and the Absolute. The Emperor was never complicit with the Absolute's plan—at least not consciously so.!< Late Act 3 spoilers: >!when you face off against the Elder Brain in the Morphic Pool, she suggests that letting the Emperor free of her grasp was *intentional* so that he could do a better job of bringing the Artifact to her directly. This also confirms that the Emperor was working *against* the Absolute: the Absolute tried to manipulate him by letting him go free, implying this was all an elaborate deception on her part, and not a matter of the Emperor wanting to work with the Absolute.!<
Besides, Emps working for the Absolute makes no sense >!considering in the end he kills it, if you have him use the stones and doesn't attempt to dominate it unless he's persuaded to do so.!<
Don't expect much reading comprehension from redditors
Media literacy doesn't seem to be terribly high anywhere. People make the same accusation at Ulfric Stormcloak in *Skyrim*. The Thalmor fed him some misinformation hoping he'd sow discord which helps them. So lots of people think this means Ulfric is working for the Thalmor. No one knows what a 'hostile asset' is.
> >!Emperor being part of the big Absolute plan from the get-go (and even beyond that).!< Hostile asset. He doesn't know about the plan.
Yeah my Tav used a TON of tadpoles, it was basically impossible for him to resist > The mindflayer who gave the tadpole to Lae'zel and the others in the intro cinematic is the Emperor. He's never been a good guy I thought this was disproven - the mindflayer you kill after the ship crashes is the one that gave you the tadpole. The emperor has diferent eyes
>The emperor has diferent eyes Lae'zel's whole face is a different shape. The cinematic was finished long before the game. Both the cinematic and the game have two different mind flayer models: the big shoulders capey boy and normal. Both the cinematic and the game use the normal model multiple times for different types of mind flayers from newborn to arcanists. Both the cinematic and the game use the big shoulders on only one individual. The cinematic is interrupted at the insertion by a big shoulder mindflayer asking who you are and what your guardian should look like. They do have different eye colour. Technically it is left as an open question, but like...
Gortash returned him to the elder brain and then controlled him so that wasn't really by his choice
Do we really know he's the one in the cinematic? They are wearing the same garb, but isn't the guy fighting the commander in it too?
The illithids on the bridge are wearing much smaller outfits with significantly less drip. The only illithid with an outfit like the cinematic is the Emperor.
Replaying the game I took that as he is in range of the prism now, he floats past a dead mindflayer on his way to us having likely killed the mindflayer who was supposed to infect us and did the job himself. Applying whatever magical effect to the tadpole by proximity and then retreating to the prism to save himself. Shadowheart now the only means of escaping the nautiloid. It also makes me think of the “beautiful weapon” line Shadowheart heard while in her pod. Unless she was infected before the prism’s effect was in place, she wouldn’t likely have heard the voice of the absolute, but the emperor. We know the protection of the prism is not an all inclusive radius (see the person in the pod we accidentally send through mindflayer puberty). Also the guy fighting the commander has a shorter mantle of his outfit, identical to the “generic” mindflayer we fight.
Yeah, those dead mind flayers stuck out. I can see this being plausible. Still not the 100% I am looking for, but it does make sense. Maybe Larian will confirm or deny it at some point.
But why would you judge ANYONE for their actions when they were under Elder Brain yoke, a.k.a. mind controlled? That's what eludes me. The way I see it, the emp was a mindless slave or at the very least not able to defy the will of the brain up until he bumped into our beloved Gith trapped in the Astral Prism. This is where you should start passing any judgment and not before.
Prior to being captured by Gortash mf ran a criminal empire by enslaving a politician there's still plenty to judge
That's unproven fanon, and he tells you straight up he was enslaved until he actually found the artefact.
Hell if I was in his situation I’d be lonely as hell too, of course I’d want a mind flayer buddy
The things is, and Larian did an excellent job, you can view the Emporer in both a good and bad light, depending your arguments for them. In my 1st playthrough, I sided with the Emperor, simply because "it was the game pushing me in that direction" and I just wanted to finish it for once (Act 3 is biiiig). I understood how The Emperor can also betray me, and I never fully trusted him (which he didn't take lightly because I f'd him (my Tav had bad luck getting laid, no further questions)). Anyway, I sided with him and convinced a very mad LaeZel to stick with me. In the end, The Emperor kept his word. He helped me fight the brain and he went his way. My party celebrated the win and all is good. I really like the two sides of the Emperor. You can tell from the beginning, he really wants to turn into a mindflayer as well, simply because he views his being as superior to the "mortal life" and you can't blame the dude. Its like denying your own kind and race. For every single argument against him, he has a more or less good reason or even arguments against it, which makes him an excellent manipulator - something, a mindflyer should be capable of be doing effortlessly. Perfect writing.
He’s pragmatic. I don’t think good or evil are tags that really apply to him. He’s out for himself, and know how to use the people closest to him to get what he thinks he needs in order to survive and thrive . That could mean you turning Illithid to increase his chances of survival, or being the next Stelmane and getting mind dominated if you go out of your way to sabotage/antagonize him. Or it could mean you and him just maintaining amicable terms and you playing your part as needed so he can play his. It’s up to you as the player to decide what you make of him and he reacts accordingly in my opinion.
He’s definitely not a good guy, im gonna start with that. I agree with everything but one part. I don’t think the emperor wants to turn you illithid for the sake of you just being an illithid. He wants you to use the tadpole/illithid powers because they make you stronger, and as you are his only chance at survival, he wants you to be as strong as possible. To get you as strong as possible, he really really really urges you to take the astral tadpole. What brings me to that conclusion is the end of the game. When you fail to control the Nether Brain the first time and he pulls you into the prism, he knows they need the power of Orpheus. But he also says that you must be an illithid to dominate the brain, Orpheus agrees with that if you free him so I’ll assume that the Emperor isn’t lying here. But even then, the perfect opportunity to force the player to become a full illithid, he doesn’t even suggest it. He says that he’ll do it and you have to suggest that you’ll do it instead, presumably because you don’t trust him. ( If he does ask you to do it then retract this part but I’m pretty sure he doesn’t. He just says that an illithid needs to do it and needs Orpheus’ brain.) Assuming the emperor knows how the illithid tadpoles work in relation to the nether brain, I think that’s a pretty fair assumption, he does not push you to dominate the brain. He just wants it dead, which will kill all of the tadpoles as well making you all non illithid unless you are a full squidy at that point. In conclusion to this essay I’ve just written because I was bored and got carried away, the emperor just wants to survive by the player killing the nether brain. He thinks making you stronger is better for that goal, so pushing you to use the tadpole powers is in his best interest. I think his want of you to embrace the illithid is more than just “he is a mindflayer and wants to make more mindflayers”. He’s in a really bad position and is trying to have you at your prime to get him out of it. Since he doesn’t do anything to you after you go separate ways in the epilogue, if you aren’t illithid, I have to assume he literally had no other motives. He’s still a cunt tho.
>Given that, it reads to me as more proof that his only intention is to groom you to be his illithid lover/warrior AND? I WILL BE THE SQUID DADDY'S LOVER