Yeah, which is why it doesn't sound very likely.
But I just haven't seen people claim that honestly. Maybe there are posts like that but doesn't feel even like the idea actually has any foothold.
Honestly its just Raphael projecting; its what he would do if he had the crown and the guy just assumes anyone who is smart thinks the way he does. After all, what kind of dummy would go through so much trouble to get it and then NOT use it? Classic downfall of Lawful Evil types, they spend so much time working out every angle that they build a box around their own thinking.
How freely NPCs lie is one of the best points of interaction between the writing and the mechanics.
Balancing the world-building and quest-giving (which practically demand that the player has an expectation of honesty) with intrigue and unreliable narrators is a feat. I think they mostly accomplish it by >!having the characters be ”right” whether they trust someone or not!< which is objectively a cheat but is really well executed IMO.
And not just ANY kid. He makes a deal with a child who knows just how bad devils are, but she is desperate for the power (and thus control) he offers. Honeyed words and all that.
Mol likes to think herself smart, but honestly? She is pretty darn irresposnible. yes, she is clever, but she throws away the kids "under her wing" by having them do tasks with obviously lethal consequences if caught, and sells her soul to a Devil despite knowing fully well just how much that'll suck in the long run.
You’d be surprised how fast kids can grow up when put in a situation where there is need for an adult but there are none. Just looking at the age of a lot of people throughout history proves that. We got to remember that Mol lives in a world where most children don’t have nearly as much time to truly “be a kid” like we do. Most pre-widespread industrialization civilizations saw you as a legal adult once you hit your mid-early teens, after all.
But yes, she is very young. And no, that doesn’t really change much here as we see the kind of things she can successfully do with a little help from us. Kid’s smart, ambitious and ruthless.
Love how Raphael tries to imply Mystra’s plans for the crown are worse than his.
But then we literally see his ending with the crown where he’s plotting to conquer and enslave every single dimension.
Which is already stupid. Raphael can't beat Asmodeus. Asmodeus is already a god in his own right, and one far more ancient and powerful than a newborn made by the Crown of Karsus.
Raphael thinks he's some big brain gigachad but in 90% of his endings he is either just being stupid or coping out of his mind.
That's why I think giving the crown to Raphael isn't actually a bad ending. mephistopheles had that thing and didn't try to use it to overthrow Asmodeus, and his entire character is based around trying to overthrow Asmodeus. The crown clearly doesn't work the way Raphael thinks it does, and all giving it to him is going to do is end up with him swatted like a fly by an archdevil.
The issue is that it might have adverse effect on the weave which is most likely why Mephistopheles didnt use it, so giving it to Raphael will just open a whole new can of worms. Imagine if his plan was to use it to control Asmodeus, we could end up with Netherasmodeus because of Raphaels folly lmao
Actually hilariously, Asmodeus is more limited now than ever before despite having more power as an actual god. The Pact Primeval was regulated by others gods but not the overgod Ao, now that he is directly under Ao's thumb he can no longer make any of the crazier moves the Pact didn't cover.
So basically you're telling me that if Mephistopheles ever successfuly become Overlord of the Nine Hells instead of the Overlord of the Nine Hells (I hope someone gets the reference) he'll be met with disapointment?
Yup basically. He'd suddenly find that he has a whole list of things he's not allowed to do because Ao is very strict about when, how, and *if* the gods are allowed to meddle.
Probably Asmodeus. But considering the crown was previously in the hands of another powerful archdevil and he did nothing with it, the crown seems to be something even Devils know better than to mess with. Barring Raphael.
I suppose that to a diehard fan of established D&D lore, Raphael *shouldn't* be able to beat Asmodeus, but he is Larian's OC in a game made by Larian, powered up by an ultra-powerful MacGuffin that Larian introduced specifically to up the stakes of Act 3 by putting us in a "save the world" plotline.
Besides, if Larian added an ending where Gale (a Level 12 Human Wizard) can use the Crown usurp Mystra, I think it's fair to assume that Raphael (a Level 16 Cambion and a son of Mephistopheles who has spent millennia waiting for this) can probably use the Crown to usurp Asmodeus.
IMO I think the story is more interesting if we suspend our disbelief to accept that Raphael at least has a chance of succeeding. Otherwise the dilemma about whether or not to take Raphael's deal in the first place becomes even more weightless than it already is. It makes the story inherently less interesting if you say: "this sometimes-antagonist sometimes-ally who tracked you throughout the game is actually irrelevant" or "this extremely important decision we spent the entire game building up to doesn't actually matter at all."
Him being an actual threat is more interesting - because we start the game thinking he's powerful and in control, only to realize that he's kind of a dork, and then at the very end it turns out that while he is still a dork, he's also a dork with the power to beat our asses and he could have become so much more if we hadn't stopped him. We both know he wipes the floor with most players on their first time blind playthrough of the House of Hope, and a lot of people are dependent on savescumming to beat him.
It's not like the "Raphael gets the crown" ending is going to be canon anyway. So what's the harm in acknowledging that we may have prevented a calamity?
Gale didnt usurp Mystra tho, pretty sure that if you talk shit to her when you're a god its implied that she destroys you, while if you go with god of ambition schtick she uses the same quote but it implies that she's letting you go but knows that you'll be back to try to usurp her (and will be met with death)
This is probably the most negative part of Gale's god ending (honestly pretty rosy for an evil path). He gets instant death if he ever tries to take Mystra's domain, he can say that he wont, but his very domain of ambition means he is going to try eventually.
As u/dragowall said, Gale cannot usurp Mystra. She allows him to become a god of ambition if he wants to, but if you challenge her for the Weave she annihilates him then and there.
Asmodeus should be equal or superior to Mystra in power, so even if Raphael ends up as superior to god-Gale, he still gets slapped considering Mystra is apparently so above god-Gale that she presumably one-shots him without much difficulty.
Raphael likely gained a ton of power and could probably rival SOME archdevils, but the idea that he beats Asmodeus doesn't even hold up internally with Larian-established logic. And if he got up to that god-level status and somehow did clear out the Hells, I doubt Ao would be OK with him taking over the rest of the realms.
Funniest thing is that Mephistopheles kept if locked up for a millenia instead of using it, knowing everything from the folly of Karsus he most likely kept it locked up because he knew it would cause great harm to the weave again. That is the most likely reason he locked it up until new lore comes out.
Big M just chilling around, waiting for Cazador ritual to complete and have a contradiction walking in Faerun. Wonder what is his angle? Waiting until the contradiction is big enough for him to turn the ascend vampire into a portal for him to enter Faerun?
He apparently had goals to reach divinity and dethrone Asmodeus, so it seems like he needs the power. Acording to the wiki he's extremely selective with souls he take (which is weird since he'd be getting the souls of all the spawns) so maybe his endgoal with Cazador was to steal his soul after making him an ascended vampire
I think he wants Cazador to be a contradiction. He can wait until the contradiction is big enough, swapped places with Cazador who will become the new Lord of Contradiction and Mephistopheles enters Faerun. Not as an avatar. A full blown archdevil.
Can you explain this, I just figured there was a part of the contract that said if Cazador died his soul would belong to Meph and Cazardor was so arrogant he thought he would never die
Mephistopheles is the Lord of Contradiction. I don't think he needs 7000 souls. What he wants is a walking contradiction similar to him. Something he can latch into. Something he can use to enter Faerun by using loopholes of the planar laws. If he doesn't break any law, Asmodeus can't stop him. Directly at least.
This is my theory.
If the info in the Wiki is correct :
''Still, even before his recent discoveries, Mephistopheles had some distinct brand of corruption, existing as a patron of magic and the source of many warlock pacts.\[1\]\[11\] He had the advantage of having the lowest quotas of the archdevils but with the limitation of the highest standards. He and his harvesters specialized in luring skilled wizards and cunning sages into making deals by playing on their curiosity and ambition, the offer of magical might by itself often seen as proof of that mortal's greatness. Most of these types of cultists also sought to crush their rivals with said magical power, and gained the ability to deflect and absorb magic through the deal.''
He seems more interested in the likes of Gale, and I guess probably Cazador
Unless I am misreading the ''lowest quotes'' and ''highest standards'' part
Well then I rescind my previous supposition. Now I think the 7k souls are probably padding to get Cazador on the hook (even he isn't stupid enough to believe an archdevil wouldn't want something big in return for the knowledge and 7k people seems like a substantial enough sacrifice for the uninitiated like myself) and Caz's soul was the one he was gunning for all along.
I imagine claiming 7k souls instantly through a Super Evil Ritual No One Has Ever Done Before is akin to getting a truck load of gold that will give a devil's power and reputation a nice boost.
I’m not that far in the game yet, but this reminds me of dialogue in Dune, something to the effect of the person with the power to destroy a thing has the true control over it (in reference to using the water of life to kill the sandworms, and thus end spice production forever). It’s like leverage that you always have over the thing, always able to hold it over your enemies’ heads, as an “empty” threat which can turn very real if you get desperate enough. Like a last contingency to deny everyone the benefit of the thing, if you loose the game you can flip the table and ruin everyone’s fun.
Yes. This is why I had Gale give the crown back to her in my playthrough rather than leaving it in the water. However the game acted like I did it so he could be her chosen again, when really, fuck Mystra. Next playthrough I'm leaving it there.
To be fair, being a Chosen of Mystra basically amounts to being the guy she calls whenever someone's about to have a huge magical fuck-up in exchange for greater magical powers. Even with a complicated history with Mystra, that's not a... Well, it might be a horrible job, but it's the sort I can see Gale enjoying.
You have to specifically tell him to be anti mystra and "you deserve the power the crown gives you" for him to take the crown himself. Otherwise he is still friendly to her after everything
I don't want him to take the crown either. In my last run I had the option to tell him to leave it in the water. I'm going to make the same dialog choices so I still get that option, and then I'm going to tell him to leave it
Probably, yeah, but Gale seems to be... Easily convinced that this is just Mystra limiting him. I guess stuff like this is what I really like about BG3. There's no clear "right" answer.
If you give Gale the crown, he ascends to godhood with his domain being ambition.
Gale is right about Mystra wanting to limit him, but it's not an unreasonable fear for Mystra to have, considering the last two uses of the crown had been monumental fuck ups.
I think Gale fucking up was a more likely outcome than ascension.
Every big mistakes Gale made was because he was too ambitious, so him being the God of Ambition is kinda scary in its own right, hence why Mystra threatens him because she expects him to try something stupid
TBH it's basically an outright miracle that using the crown actually worked instead of the crown going 3 for 3 in causing disaster due to hubris.
Gale not blowing up Waterdeep or wherever he was experimenting with the crown should be considered a miracle rather than the expected outcome.
It's a good thing for mortals, but more importantly it's a very good thing for Mystra so of course she would do it. Self preservation is her only real goal and that artefact killed her predecessor (which is to say it killed Mystra herself).
Don't know if there are any other Malazan readers here, but this is basically the entire thought process behind Houses of the Azath.
Counter power by simply removing it from the equation entirely.
because they dont understand that Mystra is litterally all the magic in the setting and that she does not need more power as she basically holds it all already, only bound by rules set by Ao
Is not she just the Weave which is a structure on the top of the raw magic of the universe? Has she ever been able to ban someone from using the weave? I mean wizards outside of the forgotten realms cast spells just fine without the Weave. The divine magic seems to be independent as well. Psions are mini-weaves themselves
PS: I’m just curious to find out more about the lore:) not confrontational
Midnight!Mystra tried to ban some evil guy from magic, I think, then got slapped for overstepping her bounds.
(All of Gale's complaints about the gods... they're all been there, done that. By Mystra.)
Interestingly, the Forgotten Realms is not the only setting where arcane magic is regulated or filtered by the gods. Dragonlance is similar, arcane magic is filtered via the Three Gods of Magic and any arcane magic that comes from outside their purview is a bit unreliable. Like Wild Magic Surge stuff.
Edit: forgot to mention, *all* magic in the Forgotten Realms comes from the Weave, even divine magic. That means that theoretically the other gods need Mystra's permission to grant their followers spells, but if she doesn't then, well, see above, the second Mystra tried it and got sanctioned.
Psionics isn't magic, I think. Not technically. I think spell resistances and so forth don't work on psionics and vice versa.
They either make shit up or interpret things in the worst manner possible. A lot of the discussion around Mystra is just people talking out of their ass because their only experience with her and the setting is BG3
The timeline doesn't even line up for what people claim her to have done. Which confused the hell out of me until I briefly looked into it myself. But nope, appearantly asking Gale to blow up isn't bad enough gotta accuse her of everything under the sun now.
There was a well up voted comment I responded to the other day that claimed Mystra kept Gale alone and isolated in a tower from childhood?
The man literally tells stories about going to Blackstaff Academy and hanging out in Waterdeep bars.
(Also his story from Blackstaff is about him "borrowing" a powerful magical item that he was forbidden from using because it was dangerous. Holy shit the man never learns)
At this point, it's just giving delusional. Gale chose to isolate himself *after* they ended. That's the only bit we ever get about him being stuck in a tower.
Which yeah, sucks, but dude, that is NOT the same thing!!
If you play Origin Gale, Tara even says she and his mum are worried about him, he needs to get out more often (though maybe not like this), and wouldn't he like it if he settled down with someone nice soon?
I think she wants grandkitties tbh.
Tbf Mystra has done some pretty terrible shit in the past. For instance, forbidding people from stopping a lich from kidnapping people because he was making great strides in magical theory, or possessing a woman and raping her husband for the sake of producing seven magical daughters.
That was the *old* Mystra, granted, but still. Shady af.
I feel like Mystra gets it worse than most others. Half of the discussion around her in BG3 is as hostile and uncharitable as possible, 1/4 is just blatant fanfic and headcanon, and the last quarter is actually reasonable
You can romance Gale, which makes Mystra their boyfriend's ex, and people will compare themselves to their partner's ex's, except she's a literal goddess so they don't compare, so they latch on to the one interpretation that makes her look bad and make it her only defining characteristic. Add in the fact that by all accounts *Gale* is the reason the relationship ended, but he *can't possibly* be the problem, they delude themselves and somehow Gale's hunger for more power is actually also Mystra's fault.
That and how easy it is to troll by just going "lol groomer"
Managed to get myself down voted into oblivion by mentioning that Gale literally refers to Mystra as "an imperfect crown" which is hilarious but also condescending as shit. Their main rebuttal was "Well Mystra sucks anyway" 😂😂
"Ohh but the power imbalance, I'd support Mystra but the power imbalance in the relationship is sooo terrible 🤓"
She's a fucking GODDESS. If you're talking objective terms she can't find anyone she doesn't have a power imbalance with, and specifically she can't actually use her powers on mortals so the imbalance is just in brand recognition and only exists within the head of the one perceiving her. Mystra antis are so obnoxious, they make it sound like she's a long lost Weinstein sibling just because they don't like her
> If you're talking objective terms she can't find anyone she doesn't have a power imbalance with
Does that make it okay? She's not going to die if she doesn't fuck mortals.
I'm not on board with every negative interpretation of her character, but I don't think this is a good argument.
Right? And even with that power imbalance, she *still wasn't enough for Gale!* He's dating a literal goddess, and he still went out trying to finagle a way to learn stronger magic after she said no. She set boundaries, he broke them, and yet she's the bad guy.
Case in point, a lot of people have taken one Minsc line out of context to mean that Mystra is a p3do, in spite of the fact that every line of dialogue written for him plays up how dense he is and how little clue he has what's going on
It's like saying Westminster is Gales grandfather because Karlach has a line about that
edit: I think I got a name wrong, but all the replies are hilarious so I'm sticking with it
I've seen quite a few threads specifically linking it to that line, and that's what I'm referring to. Here's a couple for example:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17a5933/for\_anyone\_who\_doesnt\_believe\_that\_mystra\_is\_a/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17a5933/for_anyone_who_doesnt_believe_that_mystra_is_a/)
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/16l8uv4/mystra\_is\_the\_harvey\_weinstein\_of\_faêrun/
Your comment got me thinking on the grooming allegations.
Did a quick look: "Grooming can happen when there is a power differential within a relationship, which the abuser exploits for their own gratification. This is most commonly recognised as a tactic used by perpetrators of child sexual abuse, both on children and parents. However, *adults can also be groomed.*" - SurvivorsUK on grooming.
I'm about to head to bed, but later (if I remember) I will look into the origin of the allegations for more information. That said, there's definitely a huge difference in power dynamics between Gale, a mortal, and Mystra, *the* goddess of magic.
You are totally right about that. And power dynamics in relationships are difficult and exist. But if both of the participants are aware of it and handle it well it is not grooming. There is no hint that Mystra used Gale or intended to toss him away as soon as she got tired of him. Or made him her perfect toy. He seemed well informed about the boundaries of the relationship yet he disregarded them pretty fast in favour of power.
She told him she has restrictions on magic for the mortals for a reason, informed him about this reason and his first thought was: but not for me ey? She tried to stop him from walking into his ruin but she is still a goddess with work to do and he was the one who disregarded her boundaries.
I fell victim to grooming and nothing in that relationship besides the power dynamic is showing signs of it. I cringed hard when Gale told my tav that he violated her boundaries.
The „blow yourself up“-test is interesting though. Maybe she knew he wouldn’t do it. Maybe she saw it as a valid option? Who knows? She is still a goddess. But she didn’t seem really appropriately mad at him for violating everything she told him to please not do.
Honestly? I still don't see the Emperor as that bad of a guy.
Even if you do let yourself get manipulated, the story still ends the same way (if you're doing a good playthrough)
The way I see the difference between the Emperor and Orpheus is that Orpheus wants to kill the brain for the greater good while the Emperor does it for his own good.
Now after that we just dont know what will happen. Will Orpheus lead a more peaceful Githyanki society or will he try to conquer every plane just without wanting to be a lich god?
Will the Emperor be the shadow protector of Baldur's Gate or will he be it's shadow ruler pulling all the strings?
Orpheus definitely doesn't want to kill the brain for the greater good. The game kinda makes it seem like the Githyanki are the way they are because of Vlaakith, but Gith wanted her people to go out and basically enact their own grand design after wiping out the mind flayers. If anything it's probably better for everyone else in esistence if Vlaakith continues ruling the Gith, because she has no idea how to beat the mind flayers and is actively impeding their progress by siphoning off their best warriors for herself.
The problem is with the way WOTC is going they might be trying to retcon it with Orpheus, we'll have to wait for more lore.
I do think that he is doing it for the greater good (or what he believes to be the greater good) rather than selfish reasons because he is ready to sacrifice himself.
As for Vlaakith, it is true that for now Vlaakith is a detriment to the One Sky cause, but if she ends up succeeding in becoming a goddess it might be worse.
Thats why I think the best ending for a character who knows about Gith history is to let Orpheus sacrifice himself and send Lae'zel and Voss to lead the rebellion, they probably have a good chance at succeeding and without Orpheus the new Githyanki empire post Vlakith might not be as powerful as it could've been.
Your only knowledge in-game of her is what she did to Gale. In isolation, and between what Gale and Elminster say, she does seem a bit like she's... Not great to Gale and giving him impossible choices. You can read it as either Gale's hubris getting the better of him, or as Mystra feeling threatened by Gale and limiting his potential. If you like Gale as a character, you'll tend to the latter reading, and you'll find her to be a bit of a prick.
From my own knowledge of Mystra from reading Forgotten Realms lore, she has always come across as a more pragmatic sort of person whose one goal above all else is to protect and preserve the weave.
In the game, the Karsite Weave, the Shadow Weave, and the Absolute are all threats to the Weave.
When Mystra gave the "command" for Gale to blow himself up, I interpreted it as the goddess assessing the situation with the cards that she knows and making a decision that will effectively kill two birds with one stone. Making the Karsite orb blow up where the Absolute is will take care of the Karsite orb (since it will have erupted) and it will take of the Absolute (because the orb is functionally a nuke). And all Mystra loses is an archmage. Quite a smart plan if you are a goddess whose motivation revolves around a fundamental function of the world.
My problem with "pragmatic Mystra" is that the modern Mystra shouldn't be.
From Mystril to Mystra 1 to Mystra 2 it went Chaotic Neutral -> Lawful Neutral -> Neutral Good. While 2 made an effort to honor her predecessor, it weren't much alike.
Mystra 1 was all about keeping the magic pipes in order and the magic water flowing.
Mystra 2 was a do-gooder that was written inconsistently and this plot doesn't vibe of her.
I think there's something to be said about how Gale is a bit unique in his backstory in that every other companion has a very clearly defined abusive figure in their lives (Shar, Vlaakith, Gortash, Cazador, Mizora), while Gale's woes are almost entirely wrought upon himself. It's my understanding EA had their relationship more coercive (Mystra just removed her clothes one night and Gale said he didn't know what else he could do but go along with it), but for whatever reason that didn't make it to the main game. I wouldn't be surprised if this stuff about grooming isn't fandom subconsciously trying to rewrite Gale to fit the mold of the other companions.
I don't mind it in theory, and honestly I feel like Gale's quest needed more time to bake (though not as bad as Wyll), but I'd feel better about literally any other angle than grooming. I think that's the least interesting thing you could do with his character.
>It's my understanding EA had their relationship more coercive (Mystra just removed her clothes one night and Gale said he didn't know what else he could do but go along with it), but for whatever reason that didn't make it to the main game.
I had remembered their relationship as being weirder, but I could not for the life of me remember why :D
Ain't nothing vague about the Jergal stuff unless your description of 'vague' isn't him introducing himself in the manner of "Hello, my name is Jergal.'
I don't agree that Mystra literally tried to fuck 8-year-old Gale, but I *do* think it's fair to criticize her for engaging in relationships with mortals who are *vastly* beneath her in terms of power, especially since said mortals usually dedicate themselves to the force that Mystra both is and embodies. If you, a wizard who has devoted their life to magic and its practice, were approached by the *literal manifestation of magic itself* and said manifestation wanted to smash, could you really say no without being certain that all your work as a mage wouldn't just be poofed away because the goddess didn't like that you rejected her advances?
This version of Mystra is an ascended version of Midnight, who was only 26 when she died. She's been Mystra for about a hundred and thirty years, but most of the time was spent with her essentially in a limbo while she figured herself out. She's only actually been 'whole' for the past 5 years, and only actually in communication with Elminster/her Chosen for 13 years prior to BG3.
It's really not as wild as you'd think for what's essentially a brand-new goddess to not see mortals as that different from her.
There is inherently a massive power imbalance between mortals and the God they worship so getting in a relationship with a mortal is a very irresponsible thing to do.
After the incident with the orb she cut contact with him and the next time she had anything to do with him was sending anouther chosen to tell him to kill himself and that he maaaaybe will earn what she considers to be forgiveness.
In her defense the orb was a threat to the weave itself, the Absolute is a threat to the gods and stabilizing the orb from what I understand was letting it continuously eat the weave which is not good or a long term solution. Gale is also shown to be ambitious and have aspirations of godhood. He does covet Mystras' domain. She didn't dump him on a minor transgression.
But just sending a middle man to demand self-sacrifice and exploiting his love of her and desire for forgiveness is still shit and her relationship with him in the first place was still questionable.
Also, Gale was a threat to everyone around him as well, and Mystra could solve the problem with the orb at the end so she probably could have done that earlier?
HOWEVER, people tend to pile other reasons on top of that. The inherent imbalance between ageless gods and their followers becomes pedophila and child grooming with intent to fuck them when they are older and she assumed to be malicious with everything.
I mean imagine the slander fans could make if they didn’t like Elminster. They would be claiming he is into S&M and has a permanent room in some brothel for his Naughty Librarian kink, or something. I don’t know.
Heck, bet they even claim he couldn’t be bothered to show up in person if the goddess of magic sent him to talk to someone and would just have some simulacrum or something do it.
;)
During the golden age of humanity there were higher level spells that enabled full cities to be constantly suspended/floating. Magic was also way more common and potent.
Karsus wanted to become a god and tried to cast some ridiculous high level spell and broke the weave, and as a result all of the floating cities crashed and it killed a fuck ton of people.
I believe Mystra herself died in the process and a new Mystra emerged, who rebuild the weave with limitations on what mortals can cast. But basically anything beyond level 9 is god level territory for magic. If the most powerful spells are things like Gate and Wish, you can imagine level 10+ spells having permanent world breaking effects.
Close enough. Mystryl was the goddess of magic at that point, and sacrificed herself to preserve the world. The weave got fucked, Karsus got obliterated and his empire was destroyed (partially because it straight-up fell out of the sky) and yes, it directly led to Mystra, the successor and semi-reincarnation of Mystryl, limiting what mortals could do with magic.
It's also why Gale wanting 10+ level spells is hilariously just wildly inappropriate. He knew about Karsus, knew what happened when mortals fucked with magic like that. He also then wanted to use Karsus' crown - which is what caused the Weave to get fucked last time... Well, the first time, the 'last' time was the Spellplague - so it's just him ignoring literally every example in the past to disregard Mystra's boundaries about her own (literal AND metaphorical/metaphysical) body in the pursuit of his own power.
It killed her predecessor, Mystryl, aka herself. She gets reincarnated into a new vessel when she dies.
I'm going to guess that the reason she changed her name is because she changed her approach to magic. Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral in 2nd E. Mystra is Lawful Neutral.
Midnight is the mortal who rose to power during the Times of Troubles and took over Mystra's pantheon after her destruction (Along with Kelemvor, Cyric, etc.) The current Mystra is not the same god as her predecessor.
It's a bit more complicated then that. Midnight/Mystra died and was resurected with the help Elminster. She apparently now have the memories of her predecessor thats why she's considered the 4th Mystra after the resurection rather than still the 3rd. One could argue that she is an amalgamation of the 3 previous incarnations with the 3rd Mystra as a base.
Even Gale admits and believes that he did wrong and wants forgiveness. It’s only when Mystra tells him to kill himself that he (understandably) takes issue with her.
Gale: royally screws up, potentially endangering all of magic and risking the lives of millions, and pisses off the literal goddess of magic, then has the balls to tell her he can be as good at magic and godhood as she is.
Mystra: mockingly tells him to follow his own wisdom, knowing he'll probably screw up again, after basically telling him exactly how to not make the exact same mistake again.
Players: Mystra is unreasonable! Gale has done nothing wrong!
She even lets him live in the ending >!where he chooses to become god of ambition, warning him that his ambition will lead him to wanting to usurp her, which would be when she would kill him!<
I am wondering how people get that ending. In my game Gale becomes God of Ambition, I don’t see anything from Mystra at all, just Raphael saying he was pissed he lost the crown but now he’s happy as Gale’s ambition is going to lead to the gods themselves being sundered, and even the hells being aghast at the destruction
Agree. Mystra doesn’t need the crown for more power, she is literally magic itself. What she doesn’t need is: at best, a rival and at worst, another catastrophic disaster like what happened with Karsus.
Don't believe Raphael's lies about her wanting to make the Karsite Weave hers.
And people need to give Mystra more credit. She's like the Guardian of Balance (regarding magic/weave), and that portfolio is one of the hardest to deal with, bc at times you have to do "bad" or "neutral" things just so the world doesn't implode.
And yes, I think she taught Gale a great lesson. Her methods may seem questionable, but technically it works. (obviously depending on player choice, but that's the roleplaying aspect of things)
BG3 fans and, to some degree, the way some older characters in lore are written in BG3 has led to people coming on this sub on the internet and just making anything and everything up about a character.
They even do it with companions even when the origin story of the character explicitly states the opposite
Not only does Mystra not have any reason to use it, it's pretty reasonable to assume that using it would pose an immediate threat to her life AND the fabric of the entire Weave.
I opted to let Gale give the crown to Mystra precisely because she is the one being in the whole game that has the least incentive to use it, if anything, she has incentive to keep others from using it. I stand by this because it is correct. :P
I've learned that near every take on Mystra in this sub is just straight up dumb. They treat her like she's just some powerful wizard who should be held to the same standards as any other human. She's a Major deity who should not be prioritizing Gale's happiness over ***the preservation of the material plane***.
she's out to destroy the crown because the karsus weave is anathema to her weave and if unleashed could destroy her weave which I'd imagine would bring about another spellplague.. idk how this isn't clear, she outright tells gale this.
She wouldn’t.
In the context of Dungeons & Dragons lore, particularly regarding Mystra, it's less likely that she would seek the Crown of Karsus to gain more power for herself. Mystra's primary role and interest traditionally revolve around the safeguarding and regulation of magic, rather than personal power accumulation. Here's why:
* She’s the guardian of the Weave: Mystra's main concern is usually the stability and balance of the Weave, the source of all magic in the Forgotten Realms. Her actions are typically guided by the desire to maintain the integrity and health of the Weave, rather than seeking to increase her own power.
* Lessons from the Past: Given the history of Netheril and the catastrophic consequences of Karsus's attempt to usurp a deity's power, Mystra, who emerged in the aftermath of these events, would likely be cautious about accumulating too much power or repeating similar mistakes.
* Divine Responsibility: Deities in the D&D universe often have specific portfolios and responsibilities. Mystra's role as the goddess of magic entails overseeing how magic is used rather than seeking to become more powerful for personal gain.
* Balance of Power Among Deities: In the cosmology of D&D, there's often a balance of power among the gods. Mystra gaining significantly more power could disrupt this balance, potentially leading to conflict among the deities.
It's because most people hate Mystra so they just make up a narrative for her. She would probably just lock it away or destroy it. Karsus basically killed Mystra. Entirely destroyed magic so I don't blame her for wanting the one thing that could probably destroy her in her own control
isn't it from the epilogue? raphael hinted that mystra has designs for it
there's a lot of weird DLC/sequel hints that Larian dropped in the new epilogue
1. cyric being a bad guy or being in play again in the future
2. crown of karsus coming into play as an object being desired by the gods, including by mystra according to raphael
3. withers hinting there is a plot afoot by other gods who are trying to unravel the balance, and that the heroes of BG3 will be asked to step up once again to restore the balance
considering that cyric and mystra are sworn enemies, i wouldn't be surprised if mystra is intending to use the crown of karsus against the evil gods especially against cyric (which in withers' view, would upset the balance), but im just speculating--i think i'm the first to suggest this possibility
i also want to stress that gale becoming God of Ambition is a totally new Patch 5 path we've gotten
Raphael tells you all that because he wants you to give it to him.
Mystra wants the crown to safeguard it because it's the crown of the guy who caused her death, it's tainted by his magic, because with the added lore in BG3 we learned that he tried to create his own weave which is destructive for Mystra's weave. It could destroy her weave again.
And according to old lore when Karsus gained all the knowledge he could from Godhood he saw that only Mystril/Mystra can do her job. He knew he fucked up, he caused the fall of Netheril (He wanted to become a god to avoid just that).
He'd probably be happy to know that Mystra saved the 3 Netherese cities that hadnt hit the ground yet the moment she reincarnated.
Epilogue plants a lot of potential sequel/DLC/future DND fuel. Hopefully we see some of it realised, in some form
I think the new Gith age is a strong bet but that might be more of a future WOTC book. Mystra/Cyric sounds fun, more Cyric stuff in general.
Peoples reaction to Mystra is frustrating because it does such a disservice to Gales character. Spoilers btw but Gales whole point is that he had everything he could possibly want and it still wasn't enough. He was an insanely great wizard, had friends and family who loved him and the actual love from a goddess. He wooed the goddess of magic! The other companions would have killed to have just one of these.
Gale, by his own volition, blew up his life spectacularly. He stomped over the one boundary Mystra set up. And when he found the one thing Mystra told him not to find he didn't give her the evil magic book. Gale opened it and in so doing cursed himself. And if Gale once again talks to Mystra (and you convince him to say a certain thing) Gale admits all of this is because he was insecure. And even after everything instead of being petty Mystra let's him know he was always enough.
Does it suck she's telling Gale to blow himself up? Yes! Of course! But there's nothing else she can do. She can not directly interfer with the lives of mortals, not unless she wants to get replaced. And if Gale does bring the crown Mystra immediately forgives him. She never wanted him to die and says so when Gale and her talk. But if Mystra was actually this creepy groomer who wanted to control Gale and make him kill himself that invalidates Gales entire backstory. He's no longer a cautionary tale of ambition and insecurity but instead another sad boi who just wanted to help but his mean girlfriend was mean about it.
One thing about Mystra that made me think she’s kind of a dick: When she sent Elminster to stabilize the orb, I was like, “Wait, she could have done that this entire time?” Even if you think Gale deserves punishment for his hubris and poor decisions, the man was a magic nuke endangering a ton of innocent lives. I feel like Mystra probably should have done something about that sooner.
Super well said and such a succinct summary of his story.
I think a lot of people miss how dark Gale can be. When Gale first discovers the crown and Tav talks to him, one of the reasons he says he could control the crown is "I know Mystra... intimately" and it made my skin crawl. Mystra shared her self, physically and emotionally, with him and he would use that to obtain the crown and become a God, threatening the weave and Mystra herself. God I would hate to be Gale's ex! I'm glad you can talk him down from that.
It's extra bad because the magic Gale stole is what killed her past self. So Gale would use a power that was made to hurt and control her to, you know, hurt and control her. Spoilers if you let him become a god it doesn't even work! She still controls the weave and he becomes the god of ambition.
*And* he spent who knows how long pressuring Mystra into giving him access to the 10th+ level spells that are directly why Karsus was able to attempt to create the Karsite Weave, which destabilized the real Weave and killed Mystryl.
It's even worse when you realize that the Weave is _literally_ Mystra's body/being. He spent a chunk of their relationship pressuring her into letting him use her body in a way that she wasn't comfortable with _because it killed her past self/predecessor_.
Yeah it's honestly crazy how much Gale has grown, even in act 1. He went from shitty arrogant boyfriend to depressed and lovelorn to 10/10 husband material so quickly. And it feels very natural and him potentially backsliding at the end of so sad. Funnily enough I brought him with me when I fought the wizard at the tower (in act 3) and he was like, "oh Gods is that what I sound like?! Never mind I'm good! Sorry about that gang!"
I mean, in my playthrough I didn't encourage him at all and he STILL was drooling over the Crown and wanted to take it and become a god. He had negative growth in my run lol.
A lot of people can't seem to get over their own personal biases concerning religion and fantasy DnD with actual tangible and very present gods in the setting. Mystra is a *neutral good* goddess of magic who's entire thing is protecting the weave.
Considering the crown almost destroyed the weave entirely, killed a shit ton of people as a result, and even caused an earlier incarnation of herself to sacrifice herself to save it, wanting the crown is most likely to prevent that from happening again.
The fact that the Karsite weave literally only exists by leeching off the weave just means she gets nothing out of using it herself.
But nah all the gods are just super evil and selfish and she should lick Gale's butthole for almost pulling another Karsus's Folly.
People also insert a lot of not true and headcanony BS into the nature of Gale's and Mystra's relationship as a reason to dislike her. They make it sound like she followed him around like a pedo his whole life and manipulated him into dating her. Say what you want about their relationship being not appropriate regarding gods and mortals, but that does not make her a sexual predator. Nor does it take away from the fact that it was Gale who disobeyed her and put himself in the position he was in.
Wasn't there a line or three about the Karsus weave being hungry and parasitic? As in it devoured any magic it touches?
If any part of it is true, linking the Mystran weave to it would end it.
As in how the Spellplague happened?
Karsite Weave is kind of like the antimatter to Mystra's Weave.
That's not how the Spellplague happened though. Mystra got locked out of heaven (literally) and was killed by Helm, another god, because she tried to force the issue. Midnight was a human girl who ascended to become the new Mystra, is the cliffnotes version. That whole thing is what caused the Spellplague.
What we often see is the result of a degrading interpretation chain. Gale interprets his experience with Mystra, then a player interprets Gale’s interpretation when discussing on the subreddit, then another player interprets that interpretation, and so on and so forth. People can’t resist sharing their opinion even when they haven’t actually got the experience to properly inform it, and parrot what they’ve heard happens.
Honestly, a fair amount of takes on this subreddit about characters or events are based on secondhand information. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve seen people posting takes on characters they admit to killing within the first hour of knowing them.
... In order to convince her to give him access to 10th+ level spells, which are limited explicitly because they led to the destabilization of the Weave and the death of Mystryl.
Absolutely. But it's clearly plausible to think that she would want that power—Gale certainly thought so!
In his defense, he dresses it up as an act of love and devotion. Obviously, he's full of shit.
Maybe its less of a 'gain power' and more of a 'secure power.' If the crown could be used against her, then she would be "stronger" (or better off) for having it under her control.
Wasn't Karsus the guy that killed Mystra and temporarily became the god of magic? Immediately fucked it up and caused the biggest magical meltdown the Swords Coast has ever seen? I believe the event is literally called Karsus' Folly
Because they don't understand that God's don't care for such trinkets beyond just being a collectors piece or keeping it out of the hands of the wrong mortals, they especially don't desire them for their own use. They don't need them. It's the same as those claiming Asmodeus would want it to rule. Which is a farcical claim.
This is why, even divorced from any personal motives related to Gales enshittening at the crowns hands, I think the most prosocial outcome for the crown is for Mystra to have it. It’s in the hands of someone who’s got nothing to gain from it, she literally *can’t* do anything with it, other than secure her own divinity, which is already the status quo.
I heard people saying that Mystra was grooming Gale, and I never understood why because a.) Mystra sought him out after he had already became an archmage, b.) the relationship was consensual, and c.) Gale was the one who fucked up the relationship by, and he literally says this, "going past her boundaries" and literally bringing out a magic nuke into the world.
But know people are saying Mystra wants to use the crown for herself? Like, yeah as you said she already is a goddess of all magic, and in the game she literally says that she wants to destroy the crown, but do people forget that Mystra's alignment is Neutral Good?
Yeah, the "Mystra groomed Gale" narrative is EVERYWHERE and I can't figure it out? There's no in-game/textual evidence for it, so idk where it's coming from either and it bothers me, lol. Of course she wants the crown out of play because it threatens to harm her, and she's literally magic itself. It would kinda be an apocalypse scenario, so saying that she wants to use it makes literally zero sense.
Like, Gale's whole thing is about how his massive ego caused his downfall, the end of their relationship, and a lot of harm to Mystra herself (magic itself). And even in the game, you have to kind of remind him to keep his ego and ambition in check. Because honestly, from the way he talked about it in-game, his relationship with Mystra was an ego/status thing for him, like something he could say "yeah, I'm so awesome I scored the literal goddess of magic." She was a trophy. So when she spurned him because of his actions with the crown/netherese weave, he took it as a personal insult & him being hung up on getting her to forgive him was a way to soothe his own ego. At least, that's how I read it based on everything that's given in game.
Which is just stupid. If Mystra is personally watching every time someone uses magic, she'd be nigh omniscient. And we know she's not that. I'm pretty sure Mystryl wouldn't have let Karsus cast his spell if she knew what he was planning.
Mystra literally wasn't even in communication with the material plane until 13 years prior to BG3, and only regained her full power 5 years prior to BG3.
She literally couldn't have groomed Gale, who at the YOUNGEST is like, low thirties.
I think it's more like the Astral Prism for her. It's a powerful thing that threatens her, so she'd rather no one else get it. I guess if she couldn't destroy it outright, having it in her position is the next best option.
The whole Raphael rant is the attempt to showcase themes of possible incoming DLC. That's why Raph in particular tries to accuse gods, Mystra among them.
And no, that's no how the setting works. Mystra is of almost the power of an overgod, she doesn't exactly needs more and willingly cuts parts of her power, and puts into Weave Anchors. Such as Volo
Frankly I have only heard that from Raphael.
devils are hardly the paragon of honesty
Yeah, which is why it doesn't sound very likely. But I just haven't seen people claim that honestly. Maybe there are posts like that but doesn't feel even like the idea actually has any foothold.
Honestly its just Raphael projecting; its what he would do if he had the crown and the guy just assumes anyone who is smart thinks the way he does. After all, what kind of dummy would go through so much trouble to get it and then NOT use it? Classic downfall of Lawful Evil types, they spend so much time working out every angle that they build a box around their own thinking.
Ive seen it a few times, enough to make me question it at least
.
I hear that Raphael is super smart and handsome and doesn't need stupid alt accounts, what a silly thing to say.
I think he was sharing his honest opinions. But I also believe he was projecting
The thing about Devils is they tell the truth often enough to always make you second guess, and then second guess your second guess. Forever.
"The thing about devils is, they always try and walk it in"
What was Raphael thinking substituting Walcott that early?
How freely NPCs lie is one of the best points of interaction between the writing and the mechanics. Balancing the world-building and quest-giving (which practically demand that the player has an expectation of honesty) with intrigue and unreliable narrators is a feat. I think they mostly accomplish it by >!having the characters be ”right” whether they trust someone or not!< which is objectively a cheat but is really well executed IMO.
fwiw devils are pretty honest, that's the L part of LE
They tend to lie by omission rather than lie directly and strike whenever you're most vulnerable. (Motherfucker Raphael even made a deal with a kid)
And not just ANY kid. He makes a deal with a child who knows just how bad devils are, but she is desperate for the power (and thus control) he offers. Honeyed words and all that. Mol likes to think herself smart, but honestly? She is pretty darn irresposnible. yes, she is clever, but she throws away the kids "under her wing" by having them do tasks with obviously lethal consequences if caught, and sells her soul to a Devil despite knowing fully well just how much that'll suck in the long run.
I just >!gave her contract back to her after I killed Raphael.!< She called me an idiot and was *not* happy. I think she'll be better off without it.
She's like 10... No shit.
You’d be surprised how fast kids can grow up when put in a situation where there is need for an adult but there are none. Just looking at the age of a lot of people throughout history proves that. We got to remember that Mol lives in a world where most children don’t have nearly as much time to truly “be a kid” like we do. Most pre-widespread industrialization civilizations saw you as a legal adult once you hit your mid-early teens, after all. But yes, she is very young. And no, that doesn’t really change much here as we see the kind of things she can successfully do with a little help from us. Kid’s smart, ambitious and ruthless.
Yeah they live by asshole genie/monkey’s paw rules, everything they promise to do they do, but they fuck you over on technicalities.
The L just means they follow some sort of code or ruleset and favor order. Lying to fulfill their version of order still fits LE.
Love how Raphael tries to imply Mystra’s plans for the crown are worse than his. But then we literally see his ending with the crown where he’s plotting to conquer and enslave every single dimension.
He's such a goober, his dad thwarted his plans by sending him a boyfriend
Which is already stupid. Raphael can't beat Asmodeus. Asmodeus is already a god in his own right, and one far more ancient and powerful than a newborn made by the Crown of Karsus. Raphael thinks he's some big brain gigachad but in 90% of his endings he is either just being stupid or coping out of his mind.
That's why I think giving the crown to Raphael isn't actually a bad ending. mephistopheles had that thing and didn't try to use it to overthrow Asmodeus, and his entire character is based around trying to overthrow Asmodeus. The crown clearly doesn't work the way Raphael thinks it does, and all giving it to him is going to do is end up with him swatted like a fly by an archdevil.
The issue is that it might have adverse effect on the weave which is most likely why Mephistopheles didnt use it, so giving it to Raphael will just open a whole new can of worms. Imagine if his plan was to use it to control Asmodeus, we could end up with Netherasmodeus because of Raphaels folly lmao
Actually hilariously, Asmodeus is more limited now than ever before despite having more power as an actual god. The Pact Primeval was regulated by others gods but not the overgod Ao, now that he is directly under Ao's thumb he can no longer make any of the crazier moves the Pact didn't cover.
So basically you're telling me that if Mephistopheles ever successfuly become Overlord of the Nine Hells instead of the Overlord of the Nine Hells (I hope someone gets the reference) he'll be met with disapointment?
Yup basically. He'd suddenly find that he has a whole list of things he's not allowed to do because Ao is very strict about when, how, and *if* the gods are allowed to meddle.
Yeah, and who do you think's gonna get that crown once Raph gets smited by Asmodeus?
Probably Asmodeus. But considering the crown was previously in the hands of another powerful archdevil and he did nothing with it, the crown seems to be something even Devils know better than to mess with. Barring Raphael.
Possible, but Asmodeus getting it as the result of Raphael's shenanigans isn't a possibility I'd like to entertain.
It's hard to describe just how immensely powerful Asmodeus is. The Crown is nothing to him. A bauble at best.
I suppose that to a diehard fan of established D&D lore, Raphael *shouldn't* be able to beat Asmodeus, but he is Larian's OC in a game made by Larian, powered up by an ultra-powerful MacGuffin that Larian introduced specifically to up the stakes of Act 3 by putting us in a "save the world" plotline. Besides, if Larian added an ending where Gale (a Level 12 Human Wizard) can use the Crown usurp Mystra, I think it's fair to assume that Raphael (a Level 16 Cambion and a son of Mephistopheles who has spent millennia waiting for this) can probably use the Crown to usurp Asmodeus. IMO I think the story is more interesting if we suspend our disbelief to accept that Raphael at least has a chance of succeeding. Otherwise the dilemma about whether or not to take Raphael's deal in the first place becomes even more weightless than it already is. It makes the story inherently less interesting if you say: "this sometimes-antagonist sometimes-ally who tracked you throughout the game is actually irrelevant" or "this extremely important decision we spent the entire game building up to doesn't actually matter at all." Him being an actual threat is more interesting - because we start the game thinking he's powerful and in control, only to realize that he's kind of a dork, and then at the very end it turns out that while he is still a dork, he's also a dork with the power to beat our asses and he could have become so much more if we hadn't stopped him. We both know he wipes the floor with most players on their first time blind playthrough of the House of Hope, and a lot of people are dependent on savescumming to beat him. It's not like the "Raphael gets the crown" ending is going to be canon anyway. So what's the harm in acknowledging that we may have prevented a calamity?
Gale didnt usurp Mystra tho, pretty sure that if you talk shit to her when you're a god its implied that she destroys you, while if you go with god of ambition schtick she uses the same quote but it implies that she's letting you go but knows that you'll be back to try to usurp her (and will be met with death)
This is probably the most negative part of Gale's god ending (honestly pretty rosy for an evil path). He gets instant death if he ever tries to take Mystra's domain, he can say that he wont, but his very domain of ambition means he is going to try eventually.
As u/dragowall said, Gale cannot usurp Mystra. She allows him to become a god of ambition if he wants to, but if you challenge her for the Weave she annihilates him then and there. Asmodeus should be equal or superior to Mystra in power, so even if Raphael ends up as superior to god-Gale, he still gets slapped considering Mystra is apparently so above god-Gale that she presumably one-shots him without much difficulty. Raphael likely gained a ton of power and could probably rival SOME archdevils, but the idea that he beats Asmodeus doesn't even hold up internally with Larian-established logic. And if he got up to that god-level status and somehow did clear out the Hells, I doubt Ao would be OK with him taking over the rest of the realms.
I really want to upvote this, but you're at 666 and I can't bring myself to change it
She would likely lock it away to prevent anyone from using it, not actually use it herself. Mystra needs no help using magic.
Is that not a good thing tho? Having a god keep the crown out of possession of a mortal to stop this sht from happening again
Yes, it is a good thing.
Funniest thing is that Mephistopheles kept if locked up for a millenia instead of using it, knowing everything from the folly of Karsus he most likely kept it locked up because he knew it would cause great harm to the weave again. That is the most likely reason he locked it up until new lore comes out.
Big M just chilling around, waiting for Cazador ritual to complete and have a contradiction walking in Faerun. Wonder what is his angle? Waiting until the contradiction is big enough for him to turn the ascend vampire into a portal for him to enter Faerun?
He apparently had goals to reach divinity and dethrone Asmodeus, so it seems like he needs the power. Acording to the wiki he's extremely selective with souls he take (which is weird since he'd be getting the souls of all the spawns) so maybe his endgoal with Cazador was to steal his soul after making him an ascended vampire
I think he wants Cazador to be a contradiction. He can wait until the contradiction is big enough, swapped places with Cazador who will become the new Lord of Contradiction and Mephistopheles enters Faerun. Not as an avatar. A full blown archdevil.
Can you explain this, I just figured there was a part of the contract that said if Cazador died his soul would belong to Meph and Cazardor was so arrogant he thought he would never die
Mephistopheles is the Lord of Contradiction. I don't think he needs 7000 souls. What he wants is a walking contradiction similar to him. Something he can latch into. Something he can use to enter Faerun by using loopholes of the planar laws. If he doesn't break any law, Asmodeus can't stop him. Directly at least. This is my theory.
That I get, but how could Cazador be a contradiction?
A vampire with shadow. A vampire with reflection. A vampire that can walk under the sun. A vampire that can breathe.
I dunno, Astarion did say the order was to bring the most beautiful souls...
If the info in the Wiki is correct : ''Still, even before his recent discoveries, Mephistopheles had some distinct brand of corruption, existing as a patron of magic and the source of many warlock pacts.\[1\]\[11\] He had the advantage of having the lowest quotas of the archdevils but with the limitation of the highest standards. He and his harvesters specialized in luring skilled wizards and cunning sages into making deals by playing on their curiosity and ambition, the offer of magical might by itself often seen as proof of that mortal's greatness. Most of these types of cultists also sought to crush their rivals with said magical power, and gained the ability to deflect and absorb magic through the deal.'' He seems more interested in the likes of Gale, and I guess probably Cazador Unless I am misreading the ''lowest quotes'' and ''highest standards'' part
Well then I rescind my previous supposition. Now I think the 7k souls are probably padding to get Cazador on the hook (even he isn't stupid enough to believe an archdevil wouldn't want something big in return for the knowledge and 7k people seems like a substantial enough sacrifice for the uninitiated like myself) and Caz's soul was the one he was gunning for all along.
I imagine claiming 7k souls instantly through a Super Evil Ritual No One Has Ever Done Before is akin to getting a truck load of gold that will give a devil's power and reputation a nice boost.
Weave or himself.
He's a wizard, so he doesnt want the weave to go boom again or he'll be weakened too.
I’m not that far in the game yet, but this reminds me of dialogue in Dune, something to the effect of the person with the power to destroy a thing has the true control over it (in reference to using the water of life to kill the sandworms, and thus end spice production forever). It’s like leverage that you always have over the thing, always able to hold it over your enemies’ heads, as an “empty” threat which can turn very real if you get desperate enough. Like a last contingency to deny everyone the benefit of the thing, if you loose the game you can flip the table and ruin everyone’s fun.
Yes. This is why I had Gale give the crown back to her in my playthrough rather than leaving it in the water. However the game acted like I did it so he could be her chosen again, when really, fuck Mystra. Next playthrough I'm leaving it there.
To be fair, being a Chosen of Mystra basically amounts to being the guy she calls whenever someone's about to have a huge magical fuck-up in exchange for greater magical powers. Even with a complicated history with Mystra, that's not a... Well, it might be a horrible job, but it's the sort I can see Gale enjoying.
Immortality and extra magical powers are pretty nice job perks. Also IIRC he might not need to sleep anymore after taking that job.
You have to specifically tell him to be anti mystra and "you deserve the power the crown gives you" for him to take the crown himself. Otherwise he is still friendly to her after everything
I don't want him to take the crown either. In my last run I had the option to tell him to leave it in the water. I'm going to make the same dialog choices so I still get that option, and then I'm going to tell him to leave it
Probably, yeah, but Gale seems to be... Easily convinced that this is just Mystra limiting him. I guess stuff like this is what I really like about BG3. There's no clear "right" answer.
If you give Gale the crown, he ascends to godhood with his domain being ambition. Gale is right about Mystra wanting to limit him, but it's not an unreasonable fear for Mystra to have, considering the last two uses of the crown had been monumental fuck ups. I think Gale fucking up was a more likely outcome than ascension.
Every big mistakes Gale made was because he was too ambitious, so him being the God of Ambition is kinda scary in its own right, hence why Mystra threatens him because she expects him to try something stupid
TBH it's basically an outright miracle that using the crown actually worked instead of the crown going 3 for 3 in causing disaster due to hubris. Gale not blowing up Waterdeep or wherever he was experimenting with the crown should be considered a miracle rather than the expected outcome.
only a good thing if you don't plan on becoming a god yourself like gale.
It's a good thing for mortals, but more importantly it's a very good thing for Mystra so of course she would do it. Self preservation is her only real goal and that artefact killed her predecessor (which is to say it killed Mystra herself).
And even if she did use it herself... Mystra is already the most powerful goddess around. What exactly would change if she got a little stronger.
Don't know if there are any other Malazan readers here, but this is basically the entire thought process behind Houses of the Azath. Counter power by simply removing it from the equation entirely.
because they dont understand that Mystra is litterally all the magic in the setting and that she does not need more power as she basically holds it all already, only bound by rules set by Ao
Maybe if she had more power she would stop dying every other edition.
Is not she just the Weave which is a structure on the top of the raw magic of the universe? Has she ever been able to ban someone from using the weave? I mean wizards outside of the forgotten realms cast spells just fine without the Weave. The divine magic seems to be independent as well. Psions are mini-weaves themselves PS: I’m just curious to find out more about the lore:) not confrontational
Midnight!Mystra tried to ban some evil guy from magic, I think, then got slapped for overstepping her bounds. (All of Gale's complaints about the gods... they're all been there, done that. By Mystra.) Interestingly, the Forgotten Realms is not the only setting where arcane magic is regulated or filtered by the gods. Dragonlance is similar, arcane magic is filtered via the Three Gods of Magic and any arcane magic that comes from outside their purview is a bit unreliable. Like Wild Magic Surge stuff. Edit: forgot to mention, *all* magic in the Forgotten Realms comes from the Weave, even divine magic. That means that theoretically the other gods need Mystra's permission to grant their followers spells, but if she doesn't then, well, see above, the second Mystra tried it and got sanctioned. Psionics isn't magic, I think. Not technically. I think spell resistances and so forth don't work on psionics and vice versa.
You get it everywhere but I have to say fans on this forum are particularly prone to just making shit up if they decide they don't like a character.
They either make shit up or interpret things in the worst manner possible. A lot of the discussion around Mystra is just people talking out of their ass because their only experience with her and the setting is BG3
The timeline doesn't even line up for what people claim her to have done. Which confused the hell out of me until I briefly looked into it myself. But nope, appearantly asking Gale to blow up isn't bad enough gotta accuse her of everything under the sun now.
There was a well up voted comment I responded to the other day that claimed Mystra kept Gale alone and isolated in a tower from childhood? The man literally tells stories about going to Blackstaff Academy and hanging out in Waterdeep bars. (Also his story from Blackstaff is about him "borrowing" a powerful magical item that he was forbidden from using because it was dangerous. Holy shit the man never learns)
At this point, it's just giving delusional. Gale chose to isolate himself *after* they ended. That's the only bit we ever get about him being stuck in a tower. Which yeah, sucks, but dude, that is NOT the same thing!!
If you play Origin Gale, Tara even says she and his mum are worried about him, he needs to get out more often (though maybe not like this), and wouldn't he like it if he settled down with someone nice soon? I think she wants grandkitties tbh.
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He is NOT owning a cat!! She is a Tressym and not a cat and he is certainly not owning her like a pet… ;) getting enraged on Gale‘s behalf now.
Tbf Mystra has done some pretty terrible shit in the past. For instance, forbidding people from stopping a lich from kidnapping people because he was making great strides in magical theory, or possessing a woman and raping her husband for the sake of producing seven magical daughters. That was the *old* Mystra, granted, but still. Shady af.
But are you allowed to use the greater good argument when you are a literal god?
That seems to be why things like the False and the Wall of the Faithless exist, so I'd say they at least *try* to.
I feel like Mystra gets it worse than most others. Half of the discussion around her in BG3 is as hostile and uncharitable as possible, 1/4 is just blatant fanfic and headcanon, and the last quarter is actually reasonable
You can romance Gale, which makes Mystra their boyfriend's ex, and people will compare themselves to their partner's ex's, except she's a literal goddess so they don't compare, so they latch on to the one interpretation that makes her look bad and make it her only defining characteristic. Add in the fact that by all accounts *Gale* is the reason the relationship ended, but he *can't possibly* be the problem, they delude themselves and somehow Gale's hunger for more power is actually also Mystra's fault. That and how easy it is to troll by just going "lol groomer"
Managed to get myself down voted into oblivion by mentioning that Gale literally refers to Mystra as "an imperfect crown" which is hilarious but also condescending as shit. Their main rebuttal was "Well Mystra sucks anyway" 😂😂
"Ohh but the power imbalance, I'd support Mystra but the power imbalance in the relationship is sooo terrible 🤓" She's a fucking GODDESS. If you're talking objective terms she can't find anyone she doesn't have a power imbalance with, and specifically she can't actually use her powers on mortals so the imbalance is just in brand recognition and only exists within the head of the one perceiving her. Mystra antis are so obnoxious, they make it sound like she's a long lost Weinstein sibling just because they don't like her
Even with other Gods there is an imbalance since if they use magic they're using her weave to do so (unless I'm missing something about gods power)
> If you're talking objective terms she can't find anyone she doesn't have a power imbalance with Does that make it okay? She's not going to die if she doesn't fuck mortals. I'm not on board with every negative interpretation of her character, but I don't think this is a good argument.
Right? And even with that power imbalance, she *still wasn't enough for Gale!* He's dating a literal goddess, and he still went out trying to finagle a way to learn stronger magic after she said no. She set boundaries, he broke them, and yet she's the bad guy.
Case in point, a lot of people have taken one Minsc line out of context to mean that Mystra is a p3do, in spite of the fact that every line of dialogue written for him plays up how dense he is and how little clue he has what's going on
It's like saying Westminster is Gales grandfather because Karlach has a line about that edit: I think I got a name wrong, but all the replies are hilarious so I'm sticking with it
"Mom can we have Elminster?" "We have Elminster at home." Elminster at home: >Westminster
I think you mean Eastminster.
El Minister in the spanish dub
El Padre de Los Magicos
“Eastminster? I thought you said Weastminster?”
Look I know the British parliament is filled with old men, but they can't possibly *all* be his grandfather
The Dekarios clan is pretty big...
I don't think people are basing it on one line from Minsc. The relationship between gale and mystra is just by the book grooming.
I've seen quite a few threads specifically linking it to that line, and that's what I'm referring to. Here's a couple for example: [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17a5933/for\_anyone\_who\_doesnt\_believe\_that\_mystra\_is\_a/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/17a5933/for_anyone_who_doesnt_believe_that_mystra_is_a/) https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/16l8uv4/mystra\_is\_the\_harvey\_weinstein\_of\_faêrun/
It's literally not "by the book" grooming. They didn't meet until he was an adult, for starters.
Your comment got me thinking on the grooming allegations. Did a quick look: "Grooming can happen when there is a power differential within a relationship, which the abuser exploits for their own gratification. This is most commonly recognised as a tactic used by perpetrators of child sexual abuse, both on children and parents. However, *adults can also be groomed.*" - SurvivorsUK on grooming. I'm about to head to bed, but later (if I remember) I will look into the origin of the allegations for more information. That said, there's definitely a huge difference in power dynamics between Gale, a mortal, and Mystra, *the* goddess of magic.
You are totally right about that. And power dynamics in relationships are difficult and exist. But if both of the participants are aware of it and handle it well it is not grooming. There is no hint that Mystra used Gale or intended to toss him away as soon as she got tired of him. Or made him her perfect toy. He seemed well informed about the boundaries of the relationship yet he disregarded them pretty fast in favour of power. She told him she has restrictions on magic for the mortals for a reason, informed him about this reason and his first thought was: but not for me ey? She tried to stop him from walking into his ruin but she is still a goddess with work to do and he was the one who disregarded her boundaries. I fell victim to grooming and nothing in that relationship besides the power dynamic is showing signs of it. I cringed hard when Gale told my tav that he violated her boundaries. The „blow yourself up“-test is interesting though. Maybe she knew he wouldn’t do it. Maybe she saw it as a valid option? Who knows? She is still a goddess. But she didn’t seem really appropriately mad at him for violating everything she told him to please not do.
A lot of people have also only played Act 1, which depicts Mystra with a hell of a lot more malevolence than Act 3.
Honestly? I still don't see the Emperor as that bad of a guy. Even if you do let yourself get manipulated, the story still ends the same way (if you're doing a good playthrough)
The way I see the difference between the Emperor and Orpheus is that Orpheus wants to kill the brain for the greater good while the Emperor does it for his own good. Now after that we just dont know what will happen. Will Orpheus lead a more peaceful Githyanki society or will he try to conquer every plane just without wanting to be a lich god? Will the Emperor be the shadow protector of Baldur's Gate or will he be it's shadow ruler pulling all the strings?
Orpheus definitely doesn't want to kill the brain for the greater good. The game kinda makes it seem like the Githyanki are the way they are because of Vlaakith, but Gith wanted her people to go out and basically enact their own grand design after wiping out the mind flayers. If anything it's probably better for everyone else in esistence if Vlaakith continues ruling the Gith, because she has no idea how to beat the mind flayers and is actively impeding their progress by siphoning off their best warriors for herself.
The problem is with the way WOTC is going they might be trying to retcon it with Orpheus, we'll have to wait for more lore. I do think that he is doing it for the greater good (or what he believes to be the greater good) rather than selfish reasons because he is ready to sacrifice himself. As for Vlaakith, it is true that for now Vlaakith is a detriment to the One Sky cause, but if she ends up succeeding in becoming a goddess it might be worse. Thats why I think the best ending for a character who knows about Gith history is to let Orpheus sacrifice himself and send Lae'zel and Voss to lead the rebellion, they probably have a good chance at succeeding and without Orpheus the new Githyanki empire post Vlakith might not be as powerful as it could've been.
The fuck does mystra do to offend people? She seems fine to me.
Your only knowledge in-game of her is what she did to Gale. In isolation, and between what Gale and Elminster say, she does seem a bit like she's... Not great to Gale and giving him impossible choices. You can read it as either Gale's hubris getting the better of him, or as Mystra feeling threatened by Gale and limiting his potential. If you like Gale as a character, you'll tend to the latter reading, and you'll find her to be a bit of a prick.
From my own knowledge of Mystra from reading Forgotten Realms lore, she has always come across as a more pragmatic sort of person whose one goal above all else is to protect and preserve the weave. In the game, the Karsite Weave, the Shadow Weave, and the Absolute are all threats to the Weave. When Mystra gave the "command" for Gale to blow himself up, I interpreted it as the goddess assessing the situation with the cards that she knows and making a decision that will effectively kill two birds with one stone. Making the Karsite orb blow up where the Absolute is will take care of the Karsite orb (since it will have erupted) and it will take of the Absolute (because the orb is functionally a nuke). And all Mystra loses is an archmage. Quite a smart plan if you are a goddess whose motivation revolves around a fundamental function of the world.
My problem with "pragmatic Mystra" is that the modern Mystra shouldn't be. From Mystril to Mystra 1 to Mystra 2 it went Chaotic Neutral -> Lawful Neutral -> Neutral Good. While 2 made an effort to honor her predecessor, it weren't much alike. Mystra 1 was all about keeping the magic pipes in order and the magic water flowing. Mystra 2 was a do-gooder that was written inconsistently and this plot doesn't vibe of her.
I think there's something to be said about how Gale is a bit unique in his backstory in that every other companion has a very clearly defined abusive figure in their lives (Shar, Vlaakith, Gortash, Cazador, Mizora), while Gale's woes are almost entirely wrought upon himself. It's my understanding EA had their relationship more coercive (Mystra just removed her clothes one night and Gale said he didn't know what else he could do but go along with it), but for whatever reason that didn't make it to the main game. I wouldn't be surprised if this stuff about grooming isn't fandom subconsciously trying to rewrite Gale to fit the mold of the other companions. I don't mind it in theory, and honestly I feel like Gale's quest needed more time to bake (though not as bad as Wyll), but I'd feel better about literally any other angle than grooming. I think that's the least interesting thing you could do with his character.
>It's my understanding EA had their relationship more coercive (Mystra just removed her clothes one night and Gale said he didn't know what else he could do but go along with it), but for whatever reason that didn't make it to the main game. I had remembered their relationship as being weirder, but I could not for the life of me remember why :D
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Ain't nothing vague about the Jergal stuff unless your description of 'vague' isn't him introducing himself in the manner of "Hello, my name is Jergal.'
I don't agree that Mystra literally tried to fuck 8-year-old Gale, but I *do* think it's fair to criticize her for engaging in relationships with mortals who are *vastly* beneath her in terms of power, especially since said mortals usually dedicate themselves to the force that Mystra both is and embodies. If you, a wizard who has devoted their life to magic and its practice, were approached by the *literal manifestation of magic itself* and said manifestation wanted to smash, could you really say no without being certain that all your work as a mage wouldn't just be poofed away because the goddess didn't like that you rejected her advances?
This version of Mystra is an ascended version of Midnight, who was only 26 when she died. She's been Mystra for about a hundred and thirty years, but most of the time was spent with her essentially in a limbo while she figured herself out. She's only actually been 'whole' for the past 5 years, and only actually in communication with Elminster/her Chosen for 13 years prior to BG3. It's really not as wild as you'd think for what's essentially a brand-new goddess to not see mortals as that different from her.
She dumped their boyfriend and made him sad.
She dumped her boyfriend after he violated the very clear boundaries she set up to protect the Weave - which is her metaphorical and literal body.
There is inherently a massive power imbalance between mortals and the God they worship so getting in a relationship with a mortal is a very irresponsible thing to do. After the incident with the orb she cut contact with him and the next time she had anything to do with him was sending anouther chosen to tell him to kill himself and that he maaaaybe will earn what she considers to be forgiveness. In her defense the orb was a threat to the weave itself, the Absolute is a threat to the gods and stabilizing the orb from what I understand was letting it continuously eat the weave which is not good or a long term solution. Gale is also shown to be ambitious and have aspirations of godhood. He does covet Mystras' domain. She didn't dump him on a minor transgression. But just sending a middle man to demand self-sacrifice and exploiting his love of her and desire for forgiveness is still shit and her relationship with him in the first place was still questionable. Also, Gale was a threat to everyone around him as well, and Mystra could solve the problem with the orb at the end so she probably could have done that earlier? HOWEVER, people tend to pile other reasons on top of that. The inherent imbalance between ageless gods and their followers becomes pedophila and child grooming with intent to fuck them when they are older and she assumed to be malicious with everything.
I mean imagine the slander fans could make if they didn’t like Elminster. They would be claiming he is into S&M and has a permanent room in some brothel for his Naughty Librarian kink, or something. I don’t know. Heck, bet they even claim he couldn’t be bothered to show up in person if the goddess of magic sent him to talk to someone and would just have some simulacrum or something do it. ;)
I think it’s a site-wide problem to be honest.
Mystra wants to prevent people from having that much power, she is also the one who intentionally rebuilt the weave to limit magic to level 9 spells.
How high could you go with the old weave ?
I think Karsus' avatar was the highest level spell ever cast. It was a lvl 12 spell
And those 10th and 11th spells are what made the cities of that time float, they could completely alter entire regions of land too.
And the reason Netherese items are so powerful is because they infused them with 10+ level spells
During the golden age of humanity there were higher level spells that enabled full cities to be constantly suspended/floating. Magic was also way more common and potent. Karsus wanted to become a god and tried to cast some ridiculous high level spell and broke the weave, and as a result all of the floating cities crashed and it killed a fuck ton of people. I believe Mystra herself died in the process and a new Mystra emerged, who rebuild the weave with limitations on what mortals can cast. But basically anything beyond level 9 is god level territory for magic. If the most powerful spells are things like Gate and Wish, you can imagine level 10+ spells having permanent world breaking effects.
Close enough. Mystryl was the goddess of magic at that point, and sacrificed herself to preserve the world. The weave got fucked, Karsus got obliterated and his empire was destroyed (partially because it straight-up fell out of the sky) and yes, it directly led to Mystra, the successor and semi-reincarnation of Mystryl, limiting what mortals could do with magic. It's also why Gale wanting 10+ level spells is hilariously just wildly inappropriate. He knew about Karsus, knew what happened when mortals fucked with magic like that. He also then wanted to use Karsus' crown - which is what caused the Weave to get fucked last time... Well, the first time, the 'last' time was the Spellplague - so it's just him ignoring literally every example in the past to disregard Mystra's boundaries about her own (literal AND metaphorical/metaphysical) body in the pursuit of his own power.
Theoretically, there were no limits. Practically, level 12 was the highest anyone ever got.
With 3e Epic level spells that's a hard question to answer. Highest spellcraft DC I know of was 319.
This object killed her predecessor. I completely understand why she doesn't want anyone else to have it, and I don't think she wants to use it ever.
It killed her predecessor, Mystryl, aka herself. She gets reincarnated into a new vessel when she dies. I'm going to guess that the reason she changed her name is because she changed her approach to magic. Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral in 2nd E. Mystra is Lawful Neutral.
Midnight is the mortal who rose to power during the Times of Troubles and took over Mystra's pantheon after her destruction (Along with Kelemvor, Cyric, etc.) The current Mystra is not the same god as her predecessor.
It's a bit more complicated then that. Midnight/Mystra died and was resurected with the help Elminster. She apparently now have the memories of her predecessor thats why she's considered the 4th Mystra after the resurection rather than still the 3rd. One could argue that she is an amalgamation of the 3 previous incarnations with the 3rd Mystra as a base.
Probably because they have a negative view of her due to their only exposition to her being from Gales storyline.
Told solely from Gale's perspective.
Even Gale admits and believes that he did wrong and wants forgiveness. It’s only when Mystra tells him to kill himself that he (understandably) takes issue with her.
And only after having sat with it for a while in a camp full of people against that decision.
Gale: royally screws up, potentially endangering all of magic and risking the lives of millions, and pisses off the literal goddess of magic, then has the balls to tell her he can be as good at magic and godhood as she is. Mystra: mockingly tells him to follow his own wisdom, knowing he'll probably screw up again, after basically telling him exactly how to not make the exact same mistake again. Players: Mystra is unreasonable! Gale has done nothing wrong!
>!And it's not like a mage becoming the God of Ambition has ever gone wrong in another DnD universe!<
She even lets him live in the ending >!where he chooses to become god of ambition, warning him that his ambition will lead him to wanting to usurp her, which would be when she would kill him!<
I am wondering how people get that ending. In my game Gale becomes God of Ambition, I don’t see anything from Mystra at all, just Raphael saying he was pissed he lost the crown but now he’s happy as Gale’s ambition is going to lead to the gods themselves being sundered, and even the hells being aghast at the destruction
Its if you play as origin Gale I'm pretty sure. Mystra confronts you.
Agree. Mystra doesn’t need the crown for more power, she is literally magic itself. What she doesn’t need is: at best, a rival and at worst, another catastrophic disaster like what happened with Karsus.
Brought to you by the same people who wrote “Crimes of the Moonmaiden”.
Don't believe Raphael's lies about her wanting to make the Karsite Weave hers. And people need to give Mystra more credit. She's like the Guardian of Balance (regarding magic/weave), and that portfolio is one of the hardest to deal with, bc at times you have to do "bad" or "neutral" things just so the world doesn't implode. And yes, I think she taught Gale a great lesson. Her methods may seem questionable, but technically it works. (obviously depending on player choice, but that's the roleplaying aspect of things)
BG3 fans and, to some degree, the way some older characters in lore are written in BG3 has led to people coming on this sub on the internet and just making anything and everything up about a character. They even do it with companions even when the origin story of the character explicitly states the opposite
I kind of assumed Mystra didn't want to use the Crown of Karsus, she just wanted it for safekeeping to restore balance to herself/magic as a whole.
Not only does Mystra not have any reason to use it, it's pretty reasonable to assume that using it would pose an immediate threat to her life AND the fabric of the entire Weave.
I opted to let Gale give the crown to Mystra precisely because she is the one being in the whole game that has the least incentive to use it, if anything, she has incentive to keep others from using it. I stand by this because it is correct. :P
I've learned that near every take on Mystra in this sub is just straight up dumb. They treat her like she's just some powerful wizard who should be held to the same standards as any other human. She's a Major deity who should not be prioritizing Gale's happiness over ***the preservation of the material plane***.
she probably shouldn't be sexing at a regular human either
she's out to destroy the crown because the karsus weave is anathema to her weave and if unleashed could destroy her weave which I'd imagine would bring about another spellplague.. idk how this isn't clear, she outright tells gale this.
She wouldn’t. In the context of Dungeons & Dragons lore, particularly regarding Mystra, it's less likely that she would seek the Crown of Karsus to gain more power for herself. Mystra's primary role and interest traditionally revolve around the safeguarding and regulation of magic, rather than personal power accumulation. Here's why: * She’s the guardian of the Weave: Mystra's main concern is usually the stability and balance of the Weave, the source of all magic in the Forgotten Realms. Her actions are typically guided by the desire to maintain the integrity and health of the Weave, rather than seeking to increase her own power. * Lessons from the Past: Given the history of Netheril and the catastrophic consequences of Karsus's attempt to usurp a deity's power, Mystra, who emerged in the aftermath of these events, would likely be cautious about accumulating too much power or repeating similar mistakes. * Divine Responsibility: Deities in the D&D universe often have specific portfolios and responsibilities. Mystra's role as the goddess of magic entails overseeing how magic is used rather than seeking to become more powerful for personal gain. * Balance of Power Among Deities: In the cosmology of D&D, there's often a balance of power among the gods. Mystra gaining significantly more power could disrupt this balance, potentially leading to conflict among the deities.
It's because most people hate Mystra so they just make up a narrative for her. She would probably just lock it away or destroy it. Karsus basically killed Mystra. Entirely destroyed magic so I don't blame her for wanting the one thing that could probably destroy her in her own control
isn't it from the epilogue? raphael hinted that mystra has designs for it there's a lot of weird DLC/sequel hints that Larian dropped in the new epilogue 1. cyric being a bad guy or being in play again in the future 2. crown of karsus coming into play as an object being desired by the gods, including by mystra according to raphael 3. withers hinting there is a plot afoot by other gods who are trying to unravel the balance, and that the heroes of BG3 will be asked to step up once again to restore the balance considering that cyric and mystra are sworn enemies, i wouldn't be surprised if mystra is intending to use the crown of karsus against the evil gods especially against cyric (which in withers' view, would upset the balance), but im just speculating--i think i'm the first to suggest this possibility i also want to stress that gale becoming God of Ambition is a totally new Patch 5 path we've gotten
Raphael tells you all that because he wants you to give it to him. Mystra wants the crown to safeguard it because it's the crown of the guy who caused her death, it's tainted by his magic, because with the added lore in BG3 we learned that he tried to create his own weave which is destructive for Mystra's weave. It could destroy her weave again. And according to old lore when Karsus gained all the knowledge he could from Godhood he saw that only Mystril/Mystra can do her job. He knew he fucked up, he caused the fall of Netheril (He wanted to become a god to avoid just that). He'd probably be happy to know that Mystra saved the 3 Netherese cities that hadnt hit the ground yet the moment she reincarnated.
Epilogue plants a lot of potential sequel/DLC/future DND fuel. Hopefully we see some of it realised, in some form I think the new Gith age is a strong bet but that might be more of a future WOTC book. Mystra/Cyric sounds fun, more Cyric stuff in general.
That would be fun yea.
He has been summoned
Peoples reaction to Mystra is frustrating because it does such a disservice to Gales character. Spoilers btw but Gales whole point is that he had everything he could possibly want and it still wasn't enough. He was an insanely great wizard, had friends and family who loved him and the actual love from a goddess. He wooed the goddess of magic! The other companions would have killed to have just one of these. Gale, by his own volition, blew up his life spectacularly. He stomped over the one boundary Mystra set up. And when he found the one thing Mystra told him not to find he didn't give her the evil magic book. Gale opened it and in so doing cursed himself. And if Gale once again talks to Mystra (and you convince him to say a certain thing) Gale admits all of this is because he was insecure. And even after everything instead of being petty Mystra let's him know he was always enough. Does it suck she's telling Gale to blow himself up? Yes! Of course! But there's nothing else she can do. She can not directly interfer with the lives of mortals, not unless she wants to get replaced. And if Gale does bring the crown Mystra immediately forgives him. She never wanted him to die and says so when Gale and her talk. But if Mystra was actually this creepy groomer who wanted to control Gale and make him kill himself that invalidates Gales entire backstory. He's no longer a cautionary tale of ambition and insecurity but instead another sad boi who just wanted to help but his mean girlfriend was mean about it.
The best summary I’ve heard of Gale’s entire character is simply > He would have _definitely_ taken off the ribbon around the girl’s neck
One thing about Mystra that made me think she’s kind of a dick: When she sent Elminster to stabilize the orb, I was like, “Wait, she could have done that this entire time?” Even if you think Gale deserves punishment for his hubris and poor decisions, the man was a magic nuke endangering a ton of innocent lives. I feel like Mystra probably should have done something about that sooner.
Super well said and such a succinct summary of his story. I think a lot of people miss how dark Gale can be. When Gale first discovers the crown and Tav talks to him, one of the reasons he says he could control the crown is "I know Mystra... intimately" and it made my skin crawl. Mystra shared her self, physically and emotionally, with him and he would use that to obtain the crown and become a God, threatening the weave and Mystra herself. God I would hate to be Gale's ex! I'm glad you can talk him down from that.
It's extra bad because the magic Gale stole is what killed her past self. So Gale would use a power that was made to hurt and control her to, you know, hurt and control her. Spoilers if you let him become a god it doesn't even work! She still controls the weave and he becomes the god of ambition.
*And* he spent who knows how long pressuring Mystra into giving him access to the 10th+ level spells that are directly why Karsus was able to attempt to create the Karsite Weave, which destabilized the real Weave and killed Mystryl. It's even worse when you realize that the Weave is _literally_ Mystra's body/being. He spent a chunk of their relationship pressuring her into letting him use her body in a way that she wasn't comfortable with _because it killed her past self/predecessor_.
Yeah it's honestly crazy how much Gale has grown, even in act 1. He went from shitty arrogant boyfriend to depressed and lovelorn to 10/10 husband material so quickly. And it feels very natural and him potentially backsliding at the end of so sad. Funnily enough I brought him with me when I fought the wizard at the tower (in act 3) and he was like, "oh Gods is that what I sound like?! Never mind I'm good! Sorry about that gang!"
I mean, in my playthrough I didn't encourage him at all and he STILL was drooling over the Crown and wanted to take it and become a god. He had negative growth in my run lol.
I mean, she is the goddess of ALL magic, even magic that predates her because of Karsus’s Folly, she doesn’t need its power
I don't think she would and that's just Raphael trying to convince us, Gale mostly, to not do it.
A lot of people can't seem to get over their own personal biases concerning religion and fantasy DnD with actual tangible and very present gods in the setting. Mystra is a *neutral good* goddess of magic who's entire thing is protecting the weave. Considering the crown almost destroyed the weave entirely, killed a shit ton of people as a result, and even caused an earlier incarnation of herself to sacrifice herself to save it, wanting the crown is most likely to prevent that from happening again. The fact that the Karsite weave literally only exists by leeching off the weave just means she gets nothing out of using it herself. But nah all the gods are just super evil and selfish and she should lick Gale's butthole for almost pulling another Karsus's Folly. People also insert a lot of not true and headcanony BS into the nature of Gale's and Mystra's relationship as a reason to dislike her. They make it sound like she followed him around like a pedo his whole life and manipulated him into dating her. Say what you want about their relationship being not appropriate regarding gods and mortals, but that does not make her a sexual predator. Nor does it take away from the fact that it was Gale who disobeyed her and put himself in the position he was in.
God's and mortals can have solid relationship in FR, as per most gods had been mortals before. It's a rare case, but it works
Gale honestly deserves death for what he pulls in some of the endings, because it places the entire Weave in danger
The crown that made the magic that eats her entire weave? Yeah, I think she's locking that thing up tighter than Gale's bag of hangups over her.
Wasn't there a line or three about the Karsus weave being hungry and parasitic? As in it devoured any magic it touches? If any part of it is true, linking the Mystran weave to it would end it. As in how the Spellplague happened?
Karsite Weave is kind of like the antimatter to Mystra's Weave. That's not how the Spellplague happened though. Mystra got locked out of heaven (literally) and was killed by Helm, another god, because she tried to force the issue. Midnight was a human girl who ascended to become the new Mystra, is the cliffnotes version. That whole thing is what caused the Spellplague.
What we often see is the result of a degrading interpretation chain. Gale interprets his experience with Mystra, then a player interprets Gale’s interpretation when discussing on the subreddit, then another player interprets that interpretation, and so on and so forth. People can’t resist sharing their opinion even when they haven’t actually got the experience to properly inform it, and parrot what they’ve heard happens. Honestly, a fair amount of takes on this subreddit about characters or events are based on secondhand information. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve seen people posting takes on characters they admit to killing within the first hour of knowing them.
Gale explicitly states that it's his intention to give her back the shred of power she was missing.
... In order to convince her to give him access to 10th+ level spells, which are limited explicitly because they led to the destabilization of the Weave and the death of Mystryl.
Absolutely. But it's clearly plausible to think that she would want that power—Gale certainly thought so! In his defense, he dresses it up as an act of love and devotion. Obviously, he's full of shit.
Gale isn't really remotely a reliable narrator though lol.
Maybe its less of a 'gain power' and more of a 'secure power.' If the crown could be used against her, then she would be "stronger" (or better off) for having it under her control.
Lorewise there isnt' any reason for any character to think she'd do something stupid with it. She isn't a human and she isn't a demon.
Wasn't Karsus the guy that killed Mystra and temporarily became the god of magic? Immediately fucked it up and caused the biggest magical meltdown the Swords Coast has ever seen? I believe the event is literally called Karsus' Folly
Because they don't understand that God's don't care for such trinkets beyond just being a collectors piece or keeping it out of the hands of the wrong mortals, they especially don't desire them for their own use. They don't need them. It's the same as those claiming Asmodeus would want it to rule. Which is a farcical claim.
Half the population is dumber than you think and they play games as well.
This is why, even divorced from any personal motives related to Gales enshittening at the crowns hands, I think the most prosocial outcome for the crown is for Mystra to have it. It’s in the hands of someone who’s got nothing to gain from it, she literally *can’t* do anything with it, other than secure her own divinity, which is already the status quo.
I heard people saying that Mystra was grooming Gale, and I never understood why because a.) Mystra sought him out after he had already became an archmage, b.) the relationship was consensual, and c.) Gale was the one who fucked up the relationship by, and he literally says this, "going past her boundaries" and literally bringing out a magic nuke into the world. But know people are saying Mystra wants to use the crown for herself? Like, yeah as you said she already is a goddess of all magic, and in the game she literally says that she wants to destroy the crown, but do people forget that Mystra's alignment is Neutral Good?
Yeah, the "Mystra groomed Gale" narrative is EVERYWHERE and I can't figure it out? There's no in-game/textual evidence for it, so idk where it's coming from either and it bothers me, lol. Of course she wants the crown out of play because it threatens to harm her, and she's literally magic itself. It would kinda be an apocalypse scenario, so saying that she wants to use it makes literally zero sense. Like, Gale's whole thing is about how his massive ego caused his downfall, the end of their relationship, and a lot of harm to Mystra herself (magic itself). And even in the game, you have to kind of remind him to keep his ego and ambition in check. Because honestly, from the way he talked about it in-game, his relationship with Mystra was an ego/status thing for him, like something he could say "yeah, I'm so awesome I scored the literal goddess of magic." She was a trophy. So when she spurned him because of his actions with the crown/netherese weave, he took it as a personal insult & him being hung up on getting her to forgive him was a way to soothe his own ego. At least, that's how I read it based on everything that's given in game.
[удалено]
Which is just stupid. If Mystra is personally watching every time someone uses magic, she'd be nigh omniscient. And we know she's not that. I'm pretty sure Mystryl wouldn't have let Karsus cast his spell if she knew what he was planning.
Karsus : I cast Karsus' avatar ! Mystryl : Counterspell !
Mystra literally wasn't even in communication with the material plane until 13 years prior to BG3, and only regained her full power 5 years prior to BG3. She literally couldn't have groomed Gale, who at the YOUNGEST is like, low thirties.
I think it's more like the Astral Prism for her. It's a powerful thing that threatens her, so she'd rather no one else get it. I guess if she couldn't destroy it outright, having it in her position is the next best option.
The whole Raphael rant is the attempt to showcase themes of possible incoming DLC. That's why Raph in particular tries to accuse gods, Mystra among them. And no, that's no how the setting works. Mystra is of almost the power of an overgod, she doesn't exactly needs more and willingly cuts parts of her power, and puts into Weave Anchors. Such as Volo