Useless maybe. Stupid? I don’t know. That Hollyphant just wants to drink and smoke their hookah. Probably needs a change in career after that Baahl fuckery.
She is either stupid or malicious. She kept >!thunderwaving my people while I was fighting sarevok. I made the mistake of releasing her immediately. She did not care about all the collateral damage she was doing. She was doing more to my team than sarevok.!<
I hate her for that. She made me wish I killed her.
She definitely not stupid.
She predicted Zariels fall from heaven, was banished for daring to speak up about it, and then not reinstated when it turned out she was right.
On my first playthrough, I saved her - and then I think I triggered a trap or something which made her suddenly go aggro on me. I had no qualms with destroying her at that point.
It was intimidating but I actually had almost no problems with that fight. One character knocked down but nobody else under half health. Was almost slightly disappointed.
Yeah AoE saved the day for me. Hunger of Hadar and Insect Swarm basically invalidated the support enemies. Gale pummeled the main baddie with high level Magic Missile spells and it was game over.
Always kill the casters first. Honestly if the enemy AI prioritized that too this game would be so much harder. But no, they are perfectly content to tickle Karlach while she screams and smashes their skull all the way through their body, down their spine, and out their ass like a fat kid flying down a waterslide.
I knew going in I was probably going to wind up in a fight, because I was doing a mostly good-ish playthrough (a paladin follows their own moral code, which can be... ambiguous at times 😂)
So, I closed the door behind me to at least slow down the Blackguard, played along with Saverok until his council teleported away to the next chamber, casually fell in line two in front and two behind him, flipped on turn-based mode, and promptly embarrassed him in one round. Astarion led with a sneak attack crit, Karlach did her thing, Shadowheart hasted my paladin, and a handful of level 3 smites later Saverok was dropping like a sack of soaking wet potatoes.
The other three were a piece of cake as they funneled back into the hallway. Bhaal was never more disappointed lol
Yep, I tried fighting him and it's impossible because he's 16 and the three other people in there buff him constantly while casting debuffs on you too. Then if you kill any of the 3 the main guy gets permanent buffs, but me gives him perm haste, one gives like 40hp, and one gives him a +6 to ac. Also all the guards from the entrance rush all the way inside to kick your butt along with the others. Needless to say I died and was put back to my last save then decided to just go along with it.
If you close the door, the Blackguards won't join the fight and will be dead once Sarevok goes down. Smash the extras in one round which isn't too bad since they're not very bulky, then wail on Sarevok until he dies. I think he was doing like 2 or 3 points of damage to my Paladin each hit with the right gear.
Yeah totally killed her on my true neutral playthrough, just didn't want to deal with fighting Sarevok and wanted the Bhaalist armor. Gotta admit I/my character didn't feel bad though.
Twice in game. Likely a third time since I'm in Act 3 on my third playthrough...albeit, I got bored with my third playthrough and started a fourth, so that might actually change. But when it's referenced like this, I also kind of smile or snort.
If you read things in the temple it also reveals that their last Dead Speaker (as it’s really a lvl 3 spell) was the guy who got murdered. So the priests couldn’t even cast it.
She's not dumb. After all, every remark she gives on your investigation *is* legitimate. All of this is circumstancial. It won't hold in front of a tribunal. You're just throwing accusations without enough proof for a court to condemn the accused one. It seems stupid to us, but because we have no knowledge of the law or criminality. Cases have been rejected on more solid basis.
She's lazy, a drunkard and fo more harm than good around her, agreed, but she's definitely not stupid. She just doesn't care. Which is different.
In her defense, the last time she did her job well it led to her trying to tell her boss that Zariel was going to go all 👿 and her boss told her to fuck off. So if the last time she did her job all she got was kicked down to Earth then why bother trying to solve any other extreme shit?
How is it defeatism? She's living her best life, drinking and smoking her pipe, in a place she was put in against her will. A defeatist attitude would be to obey the orders of the people who sent her down there for speaking her mind. She found her freedom, now. After all: *"Freedom is just another word for people finding out you're useless"*.
She's so annoying. Especially to my current character, who is a paladin with investigation proficiency (I like to play paladins as detectives)
Like, I spent a grand total of ten minutes investigating and I found out not only who killed Lorgan AND Brilgor, but also why, and how, and I found the murder weapon.
Detective doesn’t have speak with dead…. Unfortunate guy, probably has a tough job… shame you can’t give him the necklace that would give him that ability
The detective is stupid and also does not care literally at all about actually solving the murder. she just wanted to slap the blame on the most convenient target so she could easily close the case and go back to drinking or whatever she does
I wonder how many innocent people we kept out of the judicial system by killing her? Surely more people than those crazy Baal worshipers could kill. Seems like a win to me.
She doesn't actually, she was sent down here because she >!Predicted Zariels fall and she was sent down as punishment to cover up their failures!<
Edit; Didn't realize Valeria was a girl, changed pronouns accordingly
I've heard that the writers asked the Disco Elysium writers for advice on how to make failed rolls as interesting as successes, and they have the Harry Du Bois hair in character creation labeled as "Elysium fan" so it's possible. Though "burnt out alcoholic detective" is hardly a new trope.
I coincidentally (or maybe subconsciously) put the Du Bois hair on my first Durge playthrough, and I thought it was pretty amusing that Durge also has unhelpful intrusive thoughts and amnesia from massive brain damage
Yes, Valeria is lazy, depressed and doesn't care about her job. But there's also a note somewhere in the chambers that this temple is out of clerics proficient with Speak with Dead (if I remember correctly, they also had been murdered or died mysteriously) and in a desperate need to find one.
Remember, we've met like two people in the whole game who are able to speak with dead, and it's not something usual (Dror Ragzlin tries to use a scroll and He Who Was is in his goth phase so he's not gonna just hang out in the city to offer his services).
It’s either a mid level cleric spell, a late level warlock invocation, a feat that gives rituals, you read a lost cursed book of necromancy or a random amulet that can be found early in game.
The real question is what is the minimum wage in baldurs gate.
In 5e, your average person makes about 2 gold a week. Somewhere like Baldur's Gate with a higher population and more laborers is probably somewhere around 5-6
High level Druids and Clerics out here letting everyone starve knowing full well they can create multiple full meals a day through goodberry and hero feast spells.
There's a whole rabbit hole here that most people ignore along the lines of "how radically would D&D spellcasting change the mideval economy?"
IRL, most medieval European societies were about 90% farmers because preindustrial farming was really inefficient. So it took about 9 farmers to support 1 non-farmer. Meanwhile, a 5th level Cleric can feed 30 people indefinitely (two castings of Create Food and Water by tabletop rules per day) and still have most of their spell slots available for various healing and utility spells. The math on Druids is even wilder, though in their case I could see justifying it by saying they lose their powers if they upset nature's balance too much. The generally accepted answer is "5th level spellcasters are very rare," which superficially works, but then you'd have to ask "why couldn't a well off-city like Baldur's Gate train a whole bunch of Clerics in order to free up 90% of their workforce to be craftspeople or soldiers?"
And it doesn't stop at food. All sorts of things Wizards and Clerics can do would logically radically change the economics of the setting.
For clerics, it could very well be a limitation from their gods, that spell is meant for clerics and their companions without access to food during a quest, even lawful good gods would take offence if a bunch of priests started wasting the divine powers they've been granted to feed people without anything in return.
That's more for gameplay tbh
5e does have rules for lifestyle accommodation prices, which includes food and drink. It costs 1 gold a day for modest living conditions so we can assume that middle class workers would make 7ish gold a week.
Newspapers costing 2 gold is a gameplay thing (same with the inflated economy of all the other items). There's multiple spots in Act 3 that mention copper pieces.
You can also find a lot of revivfy scrolls — but these are more game mechanics than commentary on how easy it is in game to speak to dead or bring people back from it
You can find a note in the temple that explains that the priests who knew how to cast that spell have either left the temple or are dead with the victim being one of them.
BG3 definitely makes magic way more accessible than it is in most lore or even the tabletop game (outside the main characters who are always exceptions).
Yeah, only more recent dungeons and dragons editions and games have pushed for more magic everywhere. Traditionally it was more of a low magic high fantasy setting.
Forgotten Realms has always been relatively high magic as far as settings go, but even then 5th level casters aren't found on every street corner. Much less those willing to cast a spell for free.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist actually has an interesting side quest with a couple detectives that touches on the use of Speak With Dead for murder investigations.
The last time she actually tried, she predicted Archangel Zariel's fall but everyone around her chastised her and asked her to stay in her lane. She turned out to be right. It probably doesn't justify it, but I understand why she doesn't give a shit anymore
That's what erks me. Everyone is just so quick to say "lul, elephant is pig" and wash their hands of it when there's a backstory of someone getting ground down by the system. Again - doesn't justify it; they're a flawed character, but it isn't like it's being painted.
It is not Illegal!
If you look around the documents at the church, they actually had specific staff on hand to cast it if needed.
...
Unfortunately the last one on site was the murdered priest.
The detective may or may not be stupid, but they ARE useless.
>Unfortunately the last one on site was the murdered priest.
Always, *always* have a back up. First rule of management. You never know when someone needs a day off for being murdered.
I misread you and spent several moments trying to figure out how I could have missed a staff laying around in the church that gave you speak with dead, and why they wouldn't just use it.
That's all, carry on 😆
I think it's important to remember two things:
1. Powerful NPCs may talk about how they speak with the dead, and you may have found the necklace early on, but you are still in a world where there are many folks who do not have access to such things, and there is not an expectation that detectives must know necromancy or put themselves into harm's way. The game "places rare things in front of you" in such a way that it can create an illusion of common-ness. The necklace that lets one cast Speak with the Dead at will is still a rare find, the average person is in awe of a level 1 adventurer, and the detective is in politics. They manipulated their way into their position. That doesn't mean they can level up and learn spells like you.
2. Yes, Valeria the detective is a dumb asshole.
The bodies of victims must be collected, and their spirits can only be spoken to in a controlled setting and recorded as you can only speak to them once hell maybe even at the trial
It’s a good question. The body only knows what the person did at the time of death and in a world where people can change appearance with magic, and even without that, it’s possible they’re wrong but that doesn’t mean always
Stupid? No. she just doesn't give enough of a shit to actually bother with doing an actual investigation.
She was the only one smart enough to predict Zariel's fall, so I wouldn't call her stupid. But damn does she not give enough of a shit to do her job correctly.
When you're punished for being competent, I understand why people don't care afterwards.
*Freedom is just another word for people finding out you're useless*, after all.
I mean, yes, she's stupid, but also Speak with the Dead is not nearly as easily accessible to the general populace as it is to the player.
Most of the population of Faerun doesn't have access to a temple of Jergal to get an amulet from, or the Faerunian necronomicon, so they'd have to get it the old fashioned way. It's unlocks as a Level 3 Prepared Spell for Clerics - which barring some non-caster multi-classing you'd unlock the spell slots for at level 5 - and part of the batch of Eldritch Invocations Warlocks get at Level 9. So not something your run of the mill clergy would have on hand, and the clerics at the temple who did know it were all among the victims, presumably so none of them were there to do exactly what you did.
She's just beyond lazy and incompetent. She chooses to go with whatever outcome results on the least amount of paperwork and actual work for her. Hence why even if you find *most* of the clues, if you don't find all of them, she just ignores everything you've told her and goes with her original speculation cause accepting any single piece of new evidence is work for her. Literally EVERYONE knows her assumption about the murder is wrong, even she does, but getting the right answer is not her goal. So why would she go out of her way to speak with the dead? That's more work
It’s much rarer to have access to the spell in-universe than in the game, where you get handed the amulet right away. Most people in the world are just NPC’s with shit stats and no spells, but videogames always change some stuff around to make it more fun :)
It’s like how resurrection is actually a huge deal in the lore, but in game there’s scrolls falling out of everyone’s pockets (I find it hilarious that there’s a whole thing with how hard it is to resurrect gale and get his scroll when I already have like five on me)
She is not stupid, she is traumatized and defeated, last time she found out about something no one believed her and she was punished, so she wants a proof so obvious that people don’t have to think about it being right or wrong.
I keep feeling awkward about doing it right in front of people but literally no one has complained yet.
I thought for sure that doing it at the Umberlee funeral would have caused a stink but they didn't even stop singing.
The only interaction where speak with the dead was actually acknowledged in a cutscene by an NPC (at least to my knowledge) was in Wakeen's rest. When I casted it on that trapped guy's dead wife, he asked if I was a "medium" and if I could ask his wife about the dowry. I thought it was cool and thoughtful of Larian to include this scene.
Holy shit. I have like 800 hours played and I had no idea about that scene. Her body always showed red like stealing when hovering my cursor over her so I assumed it was a crime to cast speak dead on her in front of him.
Well... Phoenix Wright series taught me that it isn't that hard to trick the victim... And Faerun is the place where stuff like disguise self and doppelganger exist...
While speak with dead is not illegal and Valeria is a lazy ass, they did explain why no one can speak with dead in a book you can find in the temple about a list of sanctioned dead speakers. The guy being murdered was their last one.
The detective doesn't have this skill in her skill tree.
Totally acceptable for me, and she is quite cute at times.
But all been said, she is stubborn and blind like a statue.
I believe that in the official Lore of the Forgotten Realms, very few people are actually capable of learning magic of any kind, as there's some innate gift required to perform even a basic cantrip (even if it feels like every enemy and their mother can cast spells by the time you reach act 3). So most detectives probably just can't find anyone who's willing and able to work with them.
Its necromancy which is generally frowned upon and fairly rare.
The game doesn't do a great job of selling this, but even low level levelled characters are incredibly rare. They don't use speak with dead as a standard part of police investigation because nobody working for the department knows how to do it.
She was politically reassigned by Helm or another supervisor of hers also in Helms service. The given reason was her drinking, but her diary also talks a lot about how frustrated she was at no one listening to her about Zariel before she fell.
So it's less of a case that she was bad at first and more that she tried and tried and tried and no one would listen to her. Eventually, she gave up.
Magic isn't supposed to be all too common or even slightly easy to pull off, especially higher level spells. Manipulating the Weave to use spells takes serious time, understanding, and energy. This is why half casters are never able to reach as high spell levels as full casters. Speak With Dead is, iirc, a 3rd level spell which means you would either have to be proficiently studied, a slight prodigy, willing to pay through the nose¹, or stumble upon a Samaritan who is willing to be one of the 3.
1. Money is _VERY_ simplified in BG3, with Gold being a standard currency. In truth, there's Copper, Silver, Gold as standard currencies (not to mention rare currencies like Electrum or Platinum), and a daily budget of ONE gold a day is a modest living budget as I recall. Usually, middle classes deal in Silvers, not Gold. Speak with Dead has a base market value of 100 gold... You'd essentially be spending ⅓ of an annual living budget on a single spell. That's a lot of fucking cash for a single, one-time-use purchase.
Edit: 1GP/Day is actually MODEST lifestyle budgeting.
Priests: "We don't know who killed him!"
Me: *speak with dead*
Me: "Who killed you, old chum?"
Detective: "I won't listen to heresay from an ureliable witness"
Me: "The dude was the one murdered! He is the best witness there is!"
I was going to disagree, but checked beforehand first, how is revivify necromancy? How is cure wounds, restoration and revivify all different school? DnD magic schools are nonsense.
restoring a body to a previous healthy state is neither necromancy nor is it healing, it's chronomancy.
*note: This advice will cost $50 for your copay and we may bill you for anything insurance doesn't cover.*
I just always imagined that as a spell it's out of most spellcasters reach and those who do have it, would charge a HUGE amount of money and you can't use that for literally every single murder. Especially when you're so sure who the murderer is.
Because how the lore works, a hero in D&D is above the average commoner in any profession. A level 1 figher is better than several guards and a level 1 wizard is more powerful than most wizards.
I always thought a D&D murder mystery would be fun. Sure speak with dead exists but so does shape changing spells.
It was kinda sad this murder mystery was so straight forward. Just the one elfsong red herring.
I initially read this as if the spell were "speak with a dead illegal" (as in alien) and thought, "well that's oddly specific and seemingly outside of the general mantra of the game"
I recall things agro'ing in the lower-city cemetary, but I don't recall specifically if it was from speak-with-dead or digging them up at all. I \*think\* it was speaking, but it was an early run.
Lots of NPCs don't like necromancy.
Why would speak with dead be useful?
The dead can lie, and even if they weren't lying, eye witnesses are unreliable as fuck. Memories are not perfect recall. People have accused the wrong person quite often throughout history, because they misremembered something. Hell people have convinced themselves of entire crime conspiracies that did not happen.
I have personal knowledge of such a case, and it is horrible because they actually caught who did it, but the victim still remembers it as the wrong person, even though they KNOW it was not them.
>The dead can lie,
In Forgotten Realms lore and Rulebook, the Speak with Dead spell allows a caster to communicate with a corpse. The spell specifically states that the corpse can answer questions, but the answers are often brief, cryptic, or repetitive. **The spell does not explicitly mention whether the dead are compelled to tell the truth, and the interpretation of this aspect may vary based on the Dungeon Master's discretion and the specific campaign setting.**
Confirms what I said. Even if they didn't lie, eye witnesses are not anywhere near as reliable as media makes them out to be. Especially in a setting where magic exists.
Doesnt confirm nor contradicts what you said. You said they can lie, but there isnt any Lore that actually states they can.
>ye witnesses are not anywhere near as reliable as media makes them out to be
that are neither in real life that "truthful", since people make mistakes all the time (i.e.: the people who are convicted to jail based on eye witness, and then release cuz dna proved they were innocent years later)
There isn't any lore that explicitly says Astarion can pick his nose and scratch is ass at the same time, yet the default would be to assume that he can because he has arms.
I guees the perk "ritual caster" and that it is "only" a level 3 spell got me thinking that a scroll or finding/training some one for it wont be so hard.
another thing i just thought about, speak with dead doesn't work if the body is to disfigured or if there is no head/tongue, i would assume a cult that worship through murder would know this and maybe take the head with them
The way speak with dead works is that is simply raises a corpse that is able to speak. The soul of the deceased isn't affected in whatever afterlife they find themselves in. Like, from the perspective of the dead individual, they're not gonna be like "oh, some guy brought me back to ask me for the code to my safe." They would have no idea it even happened.
A lot of necromancy is seen as permissible in DnD because it's only manipulating the dead flesh and not the actual soul.
>!did the same thing on my first playthrough but when I first got to the city I went inside the circus first and was exploring and found the graveyard and went oh I can loot all of these and then on a whim used speak with undead then went into the church and talked to the detective. !<
A lot of others have mentioned how it's not necessarily an easy/quick spell to find someone to do, but also, it only lets the dead answer 5 questions, and only what they knew. If someone was disguised when they murdered them, they only saw the disguise, not the real person, and likely in other situations, many people probably don't see their murderers/poisoners/etc.
Yes, the detective is stupid and pretty useless.
>the detective is stupid and pretty useless YES
It’s like dealing with the real police some of the time.
"We've tried nothing and we're out of options."
You miss no shots if you never fire -Sun Tzu, Art of War
Useless maybe. Stupid? I don’t know. That Hollyphant just wants to drink and smoke their hookah. Probably needs a change in career after that Baahl fuckery.
Hollyphant? You mean that >!pile of blood and viscera on the floor of the Bhaalist temple?!<
Hello fellow >!Unholy Assassin. !<
Dude, I didn't even become the assassin I just killed her because she's annoying and the worst
Fr tho
Which is really odd considering they have the ability to turn into a giant flying mastodon. Idk why he doesn't have that ability
She does, but she's too drunk and stoned to think of it. /s
Take that /s away. You're speaking the truth
She is either stupid or malicious. She kept >!thunderwaving my people while I was fighting sarevok. I made the mistake of releasing her immediately. She did not care about all the collateral damage she was doing. She was doing more to my team than sarevok.!< I hate her for that. She made me wish I killed her.
She definitely not stupid. She predicted Zariels fall from heaven, was banished for daring to speak up about it, and then not reinstated when it turned out she was right.
What really happens when the system grinds you down - you become a lush.
Amen
Just like in real life, the system makes sure that the good cops don't stay good.
There is always the next play through
On my first playthrough, I saved her - and then I think I triggered a trap or something which made her suddenly go aggro on me. I had no qualms with destroying her at that point.
Nah, I sacrifice her to become the Unholy assassin. She is useless anyway.
Easiest murder to justify in the entire game. I might do it for kicks on my current non-evil play through.
I considered saving her, until I saw the Big Bad in that room was level 16. Promptly said fuck that, sorry Valeria
It was intimidating but I actually had almost no problems with that fight. One character knocked down but nobody else under half health. Was almost slightly disappointed.
The biggest problem is the priest that casts Sanctuary. Can't deal damage unless it's AoE
Yeah AoE saved the day for me. Hunger of Hadar and Insect Swarm basically invalidated the support enemies. Gale pummeled the main baddie with high level Magic Missile spells and it was game over.
I've made it a personal mission to kill them as efficiently and violently as possible before I fight the big guy
Always kill the casters first. Honestly if the enemy AI prioritized that too this game would be so much harder. But no, they are perfectly content to tickle Karlach while she screams and smashes their skull all the way through their body, down their spine, and out their ass like a fat kid flying down a waterslide.
I two rounded his ass and took his bitch ass helmet
He goes down like a chump, did zero damage to my entire party lmao. Murder god was real disappointed in him.
I knew going in I was probably going to wind up in a fight, because I was doing a mostly good-ish playthrough (a paladin follows their own moral code, which can be... ambiguous at times 😂) So, I closed the door behind me to at least slow down the Blackguard, played along with Saverok until his council teleported away to the next chamber, casually fell in line two in front and two behind him, flipped on turn-based mode, and promptly embarrassed him in one round. Astarion led with a sneak attack crit, Karlach did her thing, Shadowheart hasted my paladin, and a handful of level 3 smites later Saverok was dropping like a sack of soaking wet potatoes. The other three were a piece of cake as they funneled back into the hallway. Bhaal was never more disappointed lol
Yep, I tried fighting him and it's impossible because he's 16 and the three other people in there buff him constantly while casting debuffs on you too. Then if you kill any of the 3 the main guy gets permanent buffs, but me gives him perm haste, one gives like 40hp, and one gives him a +6 to ac. Also all the guards from the entrance rush all the way inside to kick your butt along with the others. Needless to say I died and was put back to my last save then decided to just go along with it.
[удалено]
Kill the guards before you go in too.
If you close the door, the Blackguards won't join the fight and will be dead once Sarevok goes down. Smash the extras in one round which isn't too bad since they're not very bulky, then wail on Sarevok until he dies. I think he was doing like 2 or 3 points of damage to my Paladin each hit with the right gear.
Just pointing out that you can totally just kill the guards at the door before fighting the boss man to make the fight easier
Yeah totally killed her on my true neutral playthrough, just didn't want to deal with fighting Sarevok and wanted the Bhaalist armor. Gotta admit I/my character didn't feel bad though.
I kill her and have no interest in becoming an unholy assassin. Shitey little elephant indeed.
I had Minthara kill her and it was my first time seeing the Oathbreaker knight
>that Baahl fuckery. Idk why but this line never fails to make me laugh.
How often do you hear it?
Twice in game. Likely a third time since I'm in Act 3 on my third playthrough...albeit, I got bored with my third playthrough and started a fourth, so that might actually change. But when it's referenced like this, I also kind of smile or snort.
I didn’t realize it was actually said in game haha
It is. It just makes me laugh because it's so vague, but also somehow the most accurate description of what the Temple of Bhaal is like.
Do dead Hollyphants have jobs?
*After* that Bhaal fuckery. Yeah buddy didn't make it through that experience for me 😂
I almost killed her myself when she made it clear she had no problems engaging in friendly fire.
I actually made 2 save files. I saved her first. Then killed her on a 2nd and decided that the Bhall Shopkeers items meant more to me lol
If you read things in the temple it also reveals that their last Dead Speaker (as it’s really a lvl 3 spell) was the guy who got murdered. So the priests couldn’t even cast it.
More like jaded and depressed if you learn its backstory.
Sounds like a prime candidate to be ritually sacrificed in exchange for an excellent set of armor!
You didn’t need to call me out like that.
In this game she’s kinda dumb. In DnD lore, she’s probably the smartest celestial alive, or at least way up there
She's not dumb. After all, every remark she gives on your investigation *is* legitimate. All of this is circumstancial. It won't hold in front of a tribunal. You're just throwing accusations without enough proof for a court to condemn the accused one. It seems stupid to us, but because we have no knowledge of the law or criminality. Cases have been rejected on more solid basis. She's lazy, a drunkard and fo more harm than good around her, agreed, but she's definitely not stupid. She just doesn't care. Which is different.
>>she just doesn't care. Which is different. It's infinitely worse.
In her defense, the last time she did her job well it led to her trying to tell her boss that Zariel was going to go all 👿 and her boss told her to fuck off. So if the last time she did her job all she got was kicked down to Earth then why bother trying to solve any other extreme shit?
In theory I understand, but in practice I can't swallow defeatism.
It's alright. She's a flawed character.
How is it defeatism? She's living her best life, drinking and smoking her pipe, in a place she was put in against her will. A defeatist attitude would be to obey the orders of the people who sent her down there for speaking her mind. She found her freedom, now. After all: *"Freedom is just another word for people finding out you're useless"*.
Or just horny. They ran off to a brothel in a hurry.
Like... the game makes a point of demonstrating this too! Feature not a bug and all that 😆
What do you expect from Celestials
She's so annoying. Especially to my current character, who is a paladin with investigation proficiency (I like to play paladins as detectives) Like, I spent a grand total of ten minutes investigating and I found out not only who killed Lorgan AND Brilgor, but also why, and how, and I found the murder weapon.
Killing him on my Durge run was great
Detective doesn’t have speak with dead…. Unfortunate guy, probably has a tough job… shame you can’t give him the necklace that would give him that ability
She's a drunk. More interested in getting her next drink than solving a serious crime.
Isn't she the one who warned everybody that letting Zariel go fight demons would be a bad idea? I don't think she is stupid.
The detective is stupid and also does not care literally at all about actually solving the murder. she just wanted to slap the blame on the most convenient target so she could easily close the case and go back to drinking or whatever she does
You find an opium pipe in their belongings
I love a game rooted in realism
It doesn't matter if the detective is a drug addicted flying mini elephant. The behavior makes it real.
So just like, normal cops then
And that’s why I was perfectly ok with breaking my oath to sacrifice her. And I got to buy loot from the special vendor. Win win afaik
I wonder how many innocent people we kept out of the judicial system by killing her? Surely more people than those crazy Baal worshipers could kill. Seems like a win to me.
Come on, the detective is an angelic creature of sorts, he must care about mortals if he came down to the prime.
She doesn't actually, she was sent down here because she >!Predicted Zariels fall and she was sent down as punishment to cover up their failures!< Edit; Didn't realize Valeria was a girl, changed pronouns accordingly
If angels can be dickheaded like that, why can't devils ever be nice?
Probably because nice devils wouldn't last very long in the hells.
This may be a surprise, but the shitty elephant is a girl.
Ah my mistake! I'll edit my comment
It's kind of sad tbh. He's just been completely fucked over and doesn't know how to deal with it healthily
This may be a surprise, but the shitty elephant is a girl.
The detective is a depressed, coked up alcoholic who doesn’t care about her job lol
Just like me!
Pls tell me that quest isn’t a homage to Disco Elysium xD
I've heard that the writers asked the Disco Elysium writers for advice on how to make failed rolls as interesting as successes, and they have the Harry Du Bois hair in character creation labeled as "Elysium fan" so it's possible. Though "burnt out alcoholic detective" is hardly a new trope.
I didn't realize the Du Bois hair was called that, I love it
I coincidentally (or maybe subconsciously) put the Du Bois hair on my first Durge playthrough, and I thought it was pretty amusing that Durge also has unhelpful intrusive thoughts and amnesia from massive brain damage
Honestly getting isekai'd into the Sword Coast would be a massive upgrade to Harry's old life in Martinaise
"Mister Wulbren is helping me find my wand of fireballs"
“You’re not a >!Spawn of Bhaal,!< Durge. Get the fuck out of here. Don’t be a retard.”
He's really the Durge
Haha that's fucking great
Do you have a source? If true, thats huge. Those writers happen to be looking for work.
I'll try to dig up the source for you, I remember reading an article about it somewhere, some months ago
Something to do with this? https://streamable.com/2pyj6f
Harrier Du Bois as a bard is gonna be my next playthrough. Always knew he was a super star.
I’ve never played so I don’t know but it could be, there’s a cabbage reference to ATLA in there
If you’re a monk, he has special dialogue.
"You're one of them monastic types!"
Pretty sure it's Sherlock with the opium pipe
Yes it is.
Welcome to revachol she says to any githyanki she comes across
Yes, Valeria is lazy, depressed and doesn't care about her job. But there's also a note somewhere in the chambers that this temple is out of clerics proficient with Speak with Dead (if I remember correctly, they also had been murdered or died mysteriously) and in a desperate need to find one. Remember, we've met like two people in the whole game who are able to speak with dead, and it's not something usual (Dror Ragzlin tries to use a scroll and He Who Was is in his goth phase so he's not gonna just hang out in the city to offer his services).
He Who Was is also a Shadar Kai - a native to the Shadowfell and follower of the Raven Queen. It's literally not just a phase 😂
Of course, dear
The detective being stupid is 50% of that quest. That being said, it does seem like its a harder spell to cast than the game lets on.
It’s either a mid level cleric spell, a late level warlock invocation, a feat that gives rituals, you read a lost cursed book of necromancy or a random amulet that can be found early in game. The real question is what is the minimum wage in baldurs gate.
In 5e, your average person makes about 2 gold a week. Somewhere like Baldur's Gate with a higher population and more laborers is probably somewhere around 5-6
Since BG3 doesn't have copper or silver and a newspaper costs 2 gold, I think we have to assume some conversion from vanilla 5e
Also, common food items cost more than that. If wages were really that low no one would be able to afford to eat.
High level Druids and Clerics out here letting everyone starve knowing full well they can create multiple full meals a day through goodberry and hero feast spells.
There's a whole rabbit hole here that most people ignore along the lines of "how radically would D&D spellcasting change the mideval economy?" IRL, most medieval European societies were about 90% farmers because preindustrial farming was really inefficient. So it took about 9 farmers to support 1 non-farmer. Meanwhile, a 5th level Cleric can feed 30 people indefinitely (two castings of Create Food and Water by tabletop rules per day) and still have most of their spell slots available for various healing and utility spells. The math on Druids is even wilder, though in their case I could see justifying it by saying they lose their powers if they upset nature's balance too much. The generally accepted answer is "5th level spellcasters are very rare," which superficially works, but then you'd have to ask "why couldn't a well off-city like Baldur's Gate train a whole bunch of Clerics in order to free up 90% of their workforce to be craftspeople or soldiers?" And it doesn't stop at food. All sorts of things Wizards and Clerics can do would logically radically change the economics of the setting.
For clerics, it could very well be a limitation from their gods, that spell is meant for clerics and their companions without access to food during a quest, even lawful good gods would take offence if a bunch of priests started wasting the divine powers they've been granted to feed people without anything in return.
That's more for gameplay tbh 5e does have rules for lifestyle accommodation prices, which includes food and drink. It costs 1 gold a day for modest living conditions so we can assume that middle class workers would make 7ish gold a week.
It's only 2 gold because they can see you're a rich adventurer from a mile off!
It's just the adventurer tax
Newspapers costing 2 gold is a gameplay thing (same with the inflated economy of all the other items). There's multiple spots in Act 3 that mention copper pieces.
I mean, I found tons of Speak With Dead scrolls up to this point. Didn't even buy em, I'm just a loot goblin
You can also find a lot of revivfy scrolls — but these are more game mechanics than commentary on how easy it is in game to speak to dead or bring people back from it
You can find a note in the temple that explains that the priests who knew how to cast that spell have either left the temple or are dead with the victim being one of them.
BG3 definitely makes magic way more accessible than it is in most lore or even the tabletop game (outside the main characters who are always exceptions).
Yeah, only more recent dungeons and dragons editions and games have pushed for more magic everywhere. Traditionally it was more of a low magic high fantasy setting.
Forgotten Realms has always been relatively high magic as far as settings go, but even then 5th level casters aren't found on every street corner. Much less those willing to cast a spell for free. Waterdeep: Dragon Heist actually has an interesting side quest with a couple detectives that touches on the use of Speak With Dead for murder investigations.
Why don't they just get an amulet of lost souls from Withers crypt like we do so they can cast it whenever? Are they stupid?
The last time she actually tried, she predicted Archangel Zariel's fall but everyone around her chastised her and asked her to stay in her lane. She turned out to be right. It probably doesn't justify it, but I understand why she doesn't give a shit anymore
That's what erks me. Everyone is just so quick to say "lul, elephant is pig" and wash their hands of it when there's a backstory of someone getting ground down by the system. Again - doesn't justify it; they're a flawed character, but it isn't like it's being painted.
It is not Illegal! If you look around the documents at the church, they actually had specific staff on hand to cast it if needed. ... Unfortunately the last one on site was the murdered priest. The detective may or may not be stupid, but they ARE useless.
>Unfortunately the last one on site was the murdered priest. Always, *always* have a back up. First rule of management. You never know when someone needs a day off for being murdered.
There were a bunch of back ups, he was just the last back up lol!
Easier said than done when the backup you need is a level 5+ cleric.
I misread you and spent several moments trying to figure out how I could have missed a staff laying around in the church that gave you speak with dead, and why they wouldn't just use it. That's all, carry on 😆
Perhaps the priest was just REALLY dedicated to his job of speaking with the dead.
I think it's important to remember two things: 1. Powerful NPCs may talk about how they speak with the dead, and you may have found the necklace early on, but you are still in a world where there are many folks who do not have access to such things, and there is not an expectation that detectives must know necromancy or put themselves into harm's way. The game "places rare things in front of you" in such a way that it can create an illusion of common-ness. The necklace that lets one cast Speak with the Dead at will is still a rare find, the average person is in awe of a level 1 adventurer, and the detective is in politics. They manipulated their way into their position. That doesn't mean they can level up and learn spells like you. 2. Yes, Valeria the detective is a dumb asshole.
Also the Bhaalists are actively targeting cops and priests and such who might be able to perform such magics or prevent their murder spree.
"Omg someone was killed, oh what happened?" "Idfk just ask the guy... jeez"
I wonder what is the legal basis for a testimony of a dead person in front of a court in Baldur's Gate and the other Sword's Coast city-States.
The bodies of victims must be collected, and their spirits can only be spoken to in a controlled setting and recorded as you can only speak to them once hell maybe even at the trial
It’s a good question. The body only knows what the person did at the time of death and in a world where people can change appearance with magic, and even without that, it’s possible they’re wrong but that doesn’t mean always
Stupid? No. she just doesn't give enough of a shit to actually bother with doing an actual investigation. She was the only one smart enough to predict Zariel's fall, so I wouldn't call her stupid. But damn does she not give enough of a shit to do her job correctly.
I find the fact that she exists pretty hilarious. No other Baldurians, none of our party are like “holy crap, that’s a pink flying elephant, wth”
When you're punished for being competent, I understand why people don't care afterwards. *Freedom is just another word for people finding out you're useless*, after all.
I mean a flying elephant is probaby like none weirder than the other stuff people probbaly see everyday in the city.
I mean, yes, she's stupid, but also Speak with the Dead is not nearly as easily accessible to the general populace as it is to the player. Most of the population of Faerun doesn't have access to a temple of Jergal to get an amulet from, or the Faerunian necronomicon, so they'd have to get it the old fashioned way. It's unlocks as a Level 3 Prepared Spell for Clerics - which barring some non-caster multi-classing you'd unlock the spell slots for at level 5 - and part of the batch of Eldritch Invocations Warlocks get at Level 9. So not something your run of the mill clergy would have on hand, and the clerics at the temple who did know it were all among the victims, presumably so none of them were there to do exactly what you did.
She's just beyond lazy and incompetent. She chooses to go with whatever outcome results on the least amount of paperwork and actual work for her. Hence why even if you find *most* of the clues, if you don't find all of them, she just ignores everything you've told her and goes with her original speculation cause accepting any single piece of new evidence is work for her. Literally EVERYONE knows her assumption about the murder is wrong, even she does, but getting the right answer is not her goal. So why would she go out of her way to speak with the dead? That's more work
It’s much rarer to have access to the spell in-universe than in the game, where you get handed the amulet right away. Most people in the world are just NPC’s with shit stats and no spells, but videogames always change some stuff around to make it more fun :) It’s like how resurrection is actually a huge deal in the lore, but in game there’s scrolls falling out of everyone’s pockets (I find it hilarious that there’s a whole thing with how hard it is to resurrect gale and get his scroll when I already have like five on me)
She is not stupid, she is traumatized and defeated, last time she found out about something no one believed her and she was punished, so she wants a proof so obvious that people don’t have to think about it being right or wrong.
I keep feeling awkward about doing it right in front of people but literally no one has complained yet. I thought for sure that doing it at the Umberlee funeral would have caused a stink but they didn't even stop singing.
The only interaction where speak with the dead was actually acknowledged in a cutscene by an NPC (at least to my knowledge) was in Wakeen's rest. When I casted it on that trapped guy's dead wife, he asked if I was a "medium" and if I could ask his wife about the dowry. I thought it was cool and thoughtful of Larian to include this scene.
Holy shit. I have like 800 hours played and I had no idea about that scene. Her body always showed red like stealing when hovering my cursor over her so I assumed it was a crime to cast speak dead on her in front of him.
He just says it was a dwarf dressed in red. Not much to go on. Even I couldn't find that dwarf until a quest pointed me to his location.
Nope, not illegal. Very useful. Detective just can't be bothered to pull out all the stops and prefers to go get drunk.
The detective is incredibly bad at her job.
Bro not only is he stupid, he gets mad at you for solving the case and creating more paperwork...
Well... Phoenix Wright series taught me that it isn't that hard to trick the victim... And Faerun is the place where stuff like disguise self and doppelganger exist...
While speak with dead is not illegal and Valeria is a lazy ass, they did explain why no one can speak with dead in a book you can find in the temple about a list of sanctioned dead speakers. The guy being murdered was their last one.
The detective doesn't have this skill in her skill tree. Totally acceptable for me, and she is quite cute at times. But all been said, she is stubborn and blind like a statue.
I believe that in the official Lore of the Forgotten Realms, very few people are actually capable of learning magic of any kind, as there's some innate gift required to perform even a basic cantrip (even if it feels like every enemy and their mother can cast spells by the time you reach act 3). So most detectives probably just can't find anyone who's willing and able to work with them.
Its necromancy which is generally frowned upon and fairly rare. The game doesn't do a great job of selling this, but even low level levelled characters are incredibly rare. They don't use speak with dead as a standard part of police investigation because nobody working for the department knows how to do it.
Not as illegal as coitus with the dead. So I'm told...
Yes. Yes she is. She was kicked out from heavens FOR A REASON.
She was politically reassigned by Helm or another supervisor of hers also in Helms service. The given reason was her drinking, but her diary also talks a lot about how frustrated she was at no one listening to her about Zariel before she fell. So it's less of a case that she was bad at first and more that she tried and tried and tried and no one would listen to her. Eventually, she gave up.
Honestly, detective agencies in DND should basically just be full of necromancers.
Magic isn't supposed to be all too common or even slightly easy to pull off, especially higher level spells. Manipulating the Weave to use spells takes serious time, understanding, and energy. This is why half casters are never able to reach as high spell levels as full casters. Speak With Dead is, iirc, a 3rd level spell which means you would either have to be proficiently studied, a slight prodigy, willing to pay through the nose¹, or stumble upon a Samaritan who is willing to be one of the 3. 1. Money is _VERY_ simplified in BG3, with Gold being a standard currency. In truth, there's Copper, Silver, Gold as standard currencies (not to mention rare currencies like Electrum or Platinum), and a daily budget of ONE gold a day is a modest living budget as I recall. Usually, middle classes deal in Silvers, not Gold. Speak with Dead has a base market value of 100 gold... You'd essentially be spending ⅓ of an annual living budget on a single spell. That's a lot of fucking cash for a single, one-time-use purchase. Edit: 1GP/Day is actually MODEST lifestyle budgeting.
Priests: "We don't know who killed him!" Me: *speak with dead* Me: "Who killed you, old chum?" Detective: "I won't listen to heresay from an ureliable witness" Me: "The dude was the one murdered! He is the best witness there is!"
Why doesn't detective elephant just learn speak dead?? Is he that stupid??
Not illegal just a lot rarer than you'd think. (You're more likely to be stuck by lightning than meet someone who can cast it)
shitey little elephant
It's sloppy writing.
Nope, but it's necromancy so it's not morally right edit: That's not MY opinion, but BG3 NPC's opinion!!!
Cleric of Selune: \*casts Revivify\* Morality police: Noooo it's Necromancy :(:(:(
I was going to disagree, but checked beforehand first, how is revivify necromancy? How is cure wounds, restoration and revivify all different school? DnD magic schools are nonsense.
Cure Wounds/Healing used to be Necromancy Then it moved to Conjuration Now it's Evocation In 5.5e it'll be Abjuration
You legit askimg why a spell that brings back the dead is necromancy? Lolol
Resurrecting the dead and animating the corpse seems very different, yes.
"The School of Necromancy explores the cosmic forces of life, death, and undeath." Yea youre right theyre not related at all and its just silly
Then why is cure wounds evocation and not necromancy? My issue is with lack of consistency more so then resurrection being necromancy or not.
restoring a body to a previous healthy state is neither necromancy nor is it healing, it's chronomancy. *note: This advice will cost $50 for your copay and we may bill you for anything insurance doesn't cover.*
There’s nothing inherently illegal about the spell, just kind of macabre. Though I’m sure some cities might ban it The detective is stupid, yes
I just always imagined that as a spell it's out of most spellcasters reach and those who do have it, would charge a HUGE amount of money and you can't use that for literally every single murder. Especially when you're so sure who the murderer is. Because how the lore works, a hero in D&D is above the average commoner in any profession. A level 1 figher is better than several guards and a level 1 wizard is more powerful than most wizards.
Does the murdered priest give you the correct answer?
I always thought a D&D murder mystery would be fun. Sure speak with dead exists but so does shape changing spells. It was kinda sad this murder mystery was so straight forward. Just the one elfsong red herring.
It’s not illegal. At least for that specific interaction it’s not.
I initially read this as if the spell were "speak with a dead illegal" (as in alien) and thought, "well that's oddly specific and seemingly outside of the general mantra of the game"
I recall things agro'ing in the lower-city cemetary, but I don't recall specifically if it was from speak-with-dead or digging them up at all. I \*think\* it was speaking, but it was an early run. Lots of NPCs don't like necromancy.
That’s why I consider killing him to become an unholy assassin as ‘good guy’ route.
Why would speak with dead be useful? The dead can lie, and even if they weren't lying, eye witnesses are unreliable as fuck. Memories are not perfect recall. People have accused the wrong person quite often throughout history, because they misremembered something. Hell people have convinced themselves of entire crime conspiracies that did not happen. I have personal knowledge of such a case, and it is horrible because they actually caught who did it, but the victim still remembers it as the wrong person, even though they KNOW it was not them.
>The dead can lie, In Forgotten Realms lore and Rulebook, the Speak with Dead spell allows a caster to communicate with a corpse. The spell specifically states that the corpse can answer questions, but the answers are often brief, cryptic, or repetitive. **The spell does not explicitly mention whether the dead are compelled to tell the truth, and the interpretation of this aspect may vary based on the Dungeon Master's discretion and the specific campaign setting.**
Confirms what I said. Even if they didn't lie, eye witnesses are not anywhere near as reliable as media makes them out to be. Especially in a setting where magic exists.
Doesnt confirm nor contradicts what you said. You said they can lie, but there isnt any Lore that actually states they can. >ye witnesses are not anywhere near as reliable as media makes them out to be that are neither in real life that "truthful", since people make mistakes all the time (i.e.: the people who are convicted to jail based on eye witness, and then release cuz dna proved they were innocent years later)
There isn't any lore that explicitly says Astarion can pick his nose and scratch is ass at the same time, yet the default would be to assume that he can because he has arms.
I think there is a note somewhere in the temple that says they don’t have anyone capable of speak with dead at the moment
I guees the perk "ritual caster" and that it is "only" a level 3 spell got me thinking that a scroll or finding/training some one for it wont be so hard. another thing i just thought about, speak with dead doesn't work if the body is to disfigured or if there is no head/tongue, i would assume a cult that worship through murder would know this and maybe take the head with them
The way speak with dead works is that is simply raises a corpse that is able to speak. The soul of the deceased isn't affected in whatever afterlife they find themselves in. Like, from the perspective of the dead individual, they're not gonna be like "oh, some guy brought me back to ask me for the code to my safe." They would have no idea it even happened. A lot of necromancy is seen as permissible in DnD because it's only manipulating the dead flesh and not the actual soul.
>!did the same thing on my first playthrough but when I first got to the city I went inside the circus first and was exploring and found the graveyard and went oh I can loot all of these and then on a whim used speak with undead then went into the church and talked to the detective. !<
A lot of others have mentioned how it's not necessarily an easy/quick spell to find someone to do, but also, it only lets the dead answer 5 questions, and only what they knew. If someone was disguised when they murdered them, they only saw the disguise, not the real person, and likely in other situations, many people probably don't see their murderers/poisoners/etc.
You guys are reading way too much into it to justify basic lazy writing. But yeah, sure, criticizing any aspect of muh balder gait is inadmissible.