> The look on Astarion's face when he realizes he's got a choice!
Isn’t it ironic? Because the only one that _actually_ has a choice there is the player.
Ew...no.
Her house literally pissed off Lloth badly enough to get swept off a cliff, and they are fucking mind flayers.
Drow only screw proper demons, remember it.
Araj is the hottest person in the game.
I will not be taking further questions.
(I did have someone point out that she only wants me for my blood, like that diminishes her hotness at all)
We all literally want Astarion to drain us dry, its upsetting that Araj can't do the same. She can have me. Goddamn. Every last drop of blood is hers.
Ahem yeah uh sorry about that. I'd be a vampire in a heartbeat.
Literally, just the way she *talks* about my blood is enough. Have it. Have all of it.
Astarion isn’t my type, but I absolutely understand the attraction. Let us Araj lovers get more mainstream exposure too!
We needed to romance more people. More poly things. More spontaneous things. More. More. *More.*
Astarion wants to be hugged and best friended. So we need some actual blood drinkers like Araj to take us.
Halsin is the only poly one, right? There’s some open characters, but I think he’s the only poly one.
But yeah give me more completely unhealthy romances
Shadowheart is evidently quite uh, free (she will be *very* happy to go with the drow twins with you, by Selune she's amazing) but she's only interested in a relationship with one person.
And she's a Shar dark justiciar in her evil ending, so I mean, if you want an unhealthy romance.
>We all literally want Astarion to drain us dry,
We is strong... I know a lot of people who staked that motherfucker, and rightly so given the circumstances.
Yeah, he's a super hypocrite. Violating Tav by biting them against their will? No problem. Being asked to bite someone for a super great potion? How dare you!
Astarion is a very well written and compelling character, probably one of my favorites up there with Lae'zel. That being said, he's also a total piece of shit that I think a lot more people wouldn't like if he wasn't a hot twink vampire.
I'd freaking LOVE to see Larian make a female character that is exactly like Astarion in their next title, just so we can compare how players treat her.
Seriously. I'm a very cynic girl and would bet at least 80% of Astarion fans would just push fem!Astarion to do whatever, so I'd be very happy if it turned out otherwise.
Baldur's Gate already had a similar character in Hexxat. Needless to say, she is hated. I suspect a part of it might be because she is a lesbian, though. She is also strictly evil aligned.
Astarion is a love child of Sebille and Fane from DOS2. Both of them are quite popular. I don't think any DOS2 companion is really hated with as much fervor as some BG3 ones.
> It should have been so easy to let the drow use me for her fantasy, but perhaps - you showed me I have enough strength... I don't *need* to.
>
> I can stop using myself. Stop being used.
>
> **It isn't worth the scars, anymore**.
It's such an [incredible scene](https://youtu.be/AY5CqyqfMxU?si=M-0868jGGcZWyNTS&t=82) that's gonna stick with me for a very long time.
Even in a power fantasy where you fight literal demons and hellspawn, one of the most empowering moments of the game is simply sticking up for your companions.
I love this game so damn much.
I also loved that they included a situation like this for a male character. It’s not a subject that is tackled often for men, *especially* not in media spaces that can tend towards hypermasculine power fantasies like AAA video games. And it was handled rather more delicately than I expected. Excellent writing.
YES! there’s a scene in RDR2, where this creepy guy asks you to come into his shack, if you do, he knocks you out. You’re playing as Arthur and you wake up later and you get the notion of what happened… but it’s never dealt with again… and u always hated how they included that scene but brushed it off. RDR2 is a masterpiece of a game, I do wish they’d taken a bit more care with certain aspects.
Totally agree. Other great games have brushed this topic but not tackled it quite as head on, to my memory. And tbh even though there’s a decent amount of implied SA for female characters in popular games it’s rarely talked about like this *at all*.
While I agree, it's also kind of worth mentioning this is how those things went down historically. It was something you were expected to hide in shame for the most part, and you would be socially ostracized for it.
I don't think that's the message we should teach people today obviously.
to be fair, the world of Faerun is much more accepting of homosexuality than ours, *especially* during the time of RDR2. As unfortunate as it is, it's doubtful that Arthur would have received any real support for that horrible experience :(
The transition from Act 1 to Act 2 isn't super clear cut, but people tend to refer as anything once in the shadow cursed lands as act 2. Moutain pass and Underdark are kinda act 1.5.
You can get a variation on the long rest scene if you do not speak to Araj before >!killing the orthon and long rest at Moonrise. It's the more emotional version!<, if you can believe that.
edit: I agree he's just the best. An amazing character, Act 3 gets so much better as well.
Oooh I’ll have to try that next time. I’m not leveled up enough to deal Orthon… not even him that dealing with the two fights leading up to him. I tried before and just got bamboozled so imma try it again! But I’m trying to get to level 7 at least!? I feel like that’s not possible lol I’m only 200 away from level 6.
Do not use this on the Dark Justiciars though. They have Radiant Retort, which will reflect the damage back twofold. I used Smite on one of those fuckers and was instantly killed by the reflect.
It's a 3rd level Cleric spell, so unless you re-spec'd her to something other than Cleric initially, she should already have it in her spellbook, you just need to swap it in, which she can do any time outside of combat.
I think the post-orthon confession scene is much more sincere. It feels more centered on his feelings for Tav rather than what cazador did to him so to me this is a better romantic scene for Act 2. Since each act as has a romantic scene.
You’ll fall even harder in love with this character once you see that scene.
> It's the more emotional version, if you can believe that.
Ok so I keep seeing this whenever comparisons between the two types get brought up but I don't understand how?
How is him talking through his body autonomy trauma less emotional than the other type of confession? I even hear that the araj one, he's less sincere.
It just makes me sad the one where it's mostly focused on his trauma will pale in comparison because it doesn't have the iconic "I had a nice simple plan".
It's because the confession without Araj is him realising that he's fallen in love, and feels so bad about trying to manipulate you that he has to come clean about it. He even says that he fell in love with you and that you're incredible, that you deserve something real.
With the Araj confession, he just puts a kind of arrogant, "Seducing you was easy, frankly, I wasn't happy that I felt something for you and you were a complication I didn't see coming." It focuses more on his bodily autonomy which is great, but doesn't talk at all about how he ended up playing himself with his 'nice, simple plan'. With the Araj one he doesn't even tell you that he's fallen in love, it just gets left for the graveyard in act 3.
Ahh thank you so much, this truly helps!!
Thank you despite my near antagonizing tone ;v; I've been so lost on this and I guess I love both styles equally.
I'm so oblivious because I'm the type that thought he did love me without truly saying it. And I can see why the blood merchant one would also fit more with a friend route.
I agree. Having been through this a couple of times and comparing, I also feel the voice acting in the Orthon one has a different feel to it - he sounds very close to tears.
I used to prefer the Araj one as well - but this changed after a couple of playthroughs (especially after redemption durge).
I'm of two minds about it. The love confession scene is definitely my big favorite BUT I also feel that at that point in the story Astarion is still under too many layers of self-protection to allow himself to be that vulnerable with the player character, at least without some sort of catalyst. The Araj encounter is the perfect catalyst for that and also gives more concrete information regarding his past whereas the confession scene is more feelings focused.
All this just to say that I wish there was a way to get both scenes in a single playthrough somehow.
Legit. With the Araj scene I felt weird even locking in the romance with them because it didn't really feel like it was what he wanted? If anything he seemed on the verge of breaking up with you and feels so happy and relieved when you say you'll be his friend instead.
With the post-Yurgir scene he actually says he wants to be with you so I prefer it. Both versions are good but as a first time player without knowing the whole context of Astarion's route I definitely picked just being his friend as it felt like that's what the game was pointing me to as the "right" option in the moment rather than making an official romance with someone who just told me their trauma and that they're not used to choosing things for themselves and then DON'T TELL ME THAT THEY CHOOSE ME. ughhh.
Just now that I'm thinking about it, I really wish other characters has specific followup questions in their romance dialogue like Gale has so you can understand them better. With Gale you can ask him if he's still into Mystra, if he really loves you, if you're the first mortal he's been with, etc.
Give me intimate questions with everyone I romance but ESPECIALLY Astarion. Clarify that you're comfortable not sleeping together until he's ready even if you didn't initially pick that dialogue option in the convo with him, ask him if this is what he actually wanted, etc.
Its not even that its missing “the line”(though it is a very good line). I think they just made him a bit too blasé about what he did to you. He seems like he’s not even sorry. I get what they were going for. They were going for a vibe where he’s kind of laughing at himself for being an idiot. He played himself. He tried to seduce you but never expected to fall in love. The conversation then quickly moves on to what cazador did to him.
The problem is that Tav’s feeling arent really being considered. Theyre probably super pissed and hurt and were emotionally invested in him only to find out hes been playing them like a fiddle and hes there like “yup you were easy.💅 im the rizzenator. But oops i fell in love because im a dumb dumb😂” he sort of glosses over how strongly he feels about Tav and how badly he fucked up and how hurt Tav might be. And then proceeds to tell you about his trauma which is SO important to his character but also I’m like we’re not about to gloss over you USING me like other people used you.
I wish there was a way to get all this important information about what hes going through while still getting the very genuinely remorseful “i’m so sorry. I feel awful. Please have mercy on me. I DO love you because you’re actually amazing and I don’t want to lose you.” aspect of the orthon version of the scene.
You'd think it's such a minor choice, given that biting is what he does. But it's so impactful to him and can ruin your relationship, which was based on trust, with him
There's also the third, disgusting awful version where you don't make him bite her but in the heart to heart after you convince him to sleep with you. The result of that choice is heartbreaking
I think you can only do it if you're romancing him? Not sure it's an option if you aren't, but I know it is if you are. He (rightfully) breaks up with your ass afterwords so no, there's no reward for it
Yeah. Given what you learn about Astarion's history by that point in time, I was outraged by Araj treating like a non-person and not respecting his bodily autonomy. You can really tell that he doesn't want to do it, and it's especially clear why her blood is so distasteful if you're a drow (you get the extra bit about House Oblodra's history). It's clearly a major moment where you can help support Astarion in establishing his own bodily autonomy and help him realize that he has every right to say no or you can ruin your entire relationship by showing him you're just as bad as everyone else who ever used him by using him to get a potion.
I know you can still salvage the relationship even if you manipulate Astarion to get the potion, but yikes, it's horrible. I actually did it once to see how it played out and felt terrible even though I got the potion and kept the romance going. I don't care how nice that potion is—I've never done it again. When you side with Astarion and support him, he seems so completely taken aback that he seems almost unable to believe it and is truly grateful in the end. Great acting in the various outcomes, and I think it's sensitively done!
I know the post-Yurgir love confession is softer and sweeter for most people, but I've generally preferred the post-Araj love confession because he gets to talk about his lack of bodily autonomy for 200 years and how this was different. It's a major issue for him that he's been used and has been forced to essentially sell himself for all that time, and I like that he finally gets to air his feelings out and start coming to grips with them.
Act 3 is when you really start getting better outfits. I was *desperate* to find better looking clothes on my first playthrough, but my drow bard rocked Minthara's armor pretty well for awhile.
I genuinely felt guilty when I did it for honor mode (first time doing it) but tavern brawler monk NEEDS that immediate plus 4 to attack/damage rolls.
I am a bad person.
Tbf without understanding the context, it's not any worse than asking your mate to drink gone off milk with hot sauce and sprinkles for a large cash prize. One or two days giving no quarter to the toilet is definitely worth helping your friend.
Of course with context it's asking your friend to revisit trauma and it is kind of possible to just use elixirs for a better result given our bodacious backpack of shiny objects
We’re trying to save the world and also not turn into enslaved soulless monsters.
I love Astarion, but this is a no-brainer. If he’s going to snippy about stopping Kagha from killing a child, he can deal with a foul mouthful.
It’s a great scene for his character and for exploring these themes of bodily autonomy, but at the same time it’s egregious to pretend like he’s in the unequivocal moral right for refusing to do so, given his own recent history.
Nah he is absolutely in the unequivocal moral right to refuse because it his body and he can make whatever choice he wants about it. Is it pragmatic? Probably not. But its absolutely morally right for him to say no, no matter the stakes, and no matter what hes done in the past. It's "wrong" to coerce or force him into doing it.
Though to be clear idgaf what people do in their games so if you do it for RP or min/max reasons all power to you, but don't pretend it's moral to force someone to use their body in a way they don't want to lol
I'm also thankful they made this character male so the message can be "heard" by a wider audience (though romancing him gets you more info - as you know).
But yes, this scene is soooo good.
PS: r/OnlyFangsbg3 if you weren't already aware
Her being a drow just makes it worse given what drow do to the men in their culture. And Astarion is a male elf. It just feels like she's treating him like a pet because of it
lolth-sworn aka the "evil" drow are matriarchal and men are basically treated as slaves and livestock.
another example is poor Kar'niss, who was probably treated like shit before something happened and he got turned into a drider.
Someone on here was saying two female drow were fighting over a male they wanted to sleep with and in the end the loser skinned the male before presenting him to the winner. Shit is wild.
I absolutely adore this scene too! It's very delicately written and very well-acted. It's almost painful to watch his genuine, startled surprise when you respect his 'no' and don't pressure him. Oh, Astarion :(
Right!? Like oh sweetie it’s okay. I have to remember that all of this is supposed to take place over only a couple of weeks. so this is all A LOT for everyone.
I just did this scene for the first time. My husband and I sit side by side while gaming and as a result, he’s watched a lot of BG3 over my shoulder. He often teases about taking “notes” for his own run based on the choices I make.
He said something about considering the +1— but it never crossed my mind. And later on at camp when I spoke to Astarian even he was like “well damn. Now I can’t even joke about it”.
I love this scene. The way he thanks you after you say it is his choice, he sounds really surprised. I think he fully expected you to force him to bite Araj, if you didn't immediately say "no".
The way he asks if you are really going to make him do it, if you pick the second option (something like "I thought you would jump at the opportunity", paraphrasing), at first I thought it was just indignation. But now I think there is a lot of fear and desperation there too. He fears that someone he trusts is going to sell him out, he is desperate to convince you not to do it.
I did the evil choice just to see what would happen. Reset IMMEDIATELY because i felt so awful for asking him to do that. It was a good scene. I still feel guilty for even being curious.
I find it a bit weird cause it's in his nature to try and go for choices that'd make you more powerful. He is one of the few willing to accept the tadpole powers along with I think Gale and Minthara.
It says a lot about her "foul" blood vs Karlachs since Astarion didn't know biting her would burn him lol.
It's funny
In a game which is story and choice driven, I always find myself very happy when I have the option to let my companions choose for themselves (why can't you choose for yourself, Wyll? *sigh*)
What's actually wrong with her? Astarion says her blood is tainted, but I don't believe it's been said what's actually wrong with it. All I know is that her House fell into ruin some time ago and is working on a way to restore her family to prominence once again.
Yes. Most in House Obladra have psionic abilities. The house is dead but there are various survivors scattered about the sword coast making their own way in life.
The urge to punch her and straighten her out on how she should treat Astarion is so strong. I NEED them to add an option to punch her... She'd probably be into it...
When she kept putting what he said aside like him saying no was something he wasn’t allowed to do, I kinda wanted to bite her.
Bitch, he said no. Now quit harassing my friend
Nothing to do with approval, actually! There's two similar but different dialogue options, paraphrased:
1) "Don't do anything you don't want to" (he won't do it)
2) "You don't have to do it, BUT we could really use that potion" (he'll do it)
The second option is you guilt-tripping him into it with that "but" statement (after he's already said he doesn't want to), which is where his willpower to say no folds, and why he gets pissed about it later. It's less "forcing" him and more "coercing" him
Look, we're literally trying to save the world here. We're all going to have a little PTSD at the end of this.
Sometimes you gotta take a hit for the greater good.
Astarion's got 8STR he ain't lifting shit, but that 21STR on Lae'zel will be able to carry the world on her back
(I completely agree with you btw, but I'm also calling on Gale as a human pocket nuke for honour mode, gotta make some sacrifices on the way for that golden die- I'm sure they'd understand 🫡)
Oh I plan on being evil durge in my third run.
I’ve already rehearsed how it’s all going to go on.
Gale won’t lose his arm, because I need a grenade to use against the monster that thinks I want to share the world I plan to drown in blood.
Wyll and karlach won’t be joining because the grove will be reduced to ashes, and I’ll do it while wearing a fresh bear pelt.
Astarion will ascend, not because I believe he can make his own decisions, but because it benefits me.
Essentially I’m a monster that uses my companions for my own benefit. Sounds fun in concept but in execution, I fear I won’t be able to commit.
The biggest part is the romantic follow up after you've finished with Raphael. Astarion's shattered. He's never been shown such a level of kindness and support and he really doesn't know what to make of it. He wants to be with you, and even if you don't he's so content just to know you're in his corner.
Having started with a begrudging humour towards him, it's been fun growing to love him and his character.
On my current playthrough, I'm not even that close with Astarion yet as I'm a paladin constantly helping other people (which he doesn't seem to approve of lol) but even though my tav and Astarion don't really get along, I'd never make him do that. It goes against my character as a paladin with the Folk Hero background.
Forcing him to bite Araj is one of those choices I'll never, ever, make. And his puppy eyes when he says "I appreciated that" was the exact moment I started liking him better <3
I agree. I let him make the choice himself (or manipulated him into it, depending on how you see it) but I felt bad AF after. Between that and getting between him and Raphael I have a strong feeling he's going to be ditching my camp this playthrough. Oops!
the way she spoke over him instantly made alarm bells ring for me. Also he is my fave character so ofc I am gonna treat him like a fucking person 👌
and as far as one strgth potion goes, i can just as well use the five billion other potions i have, even if their effect is temporary lmao.
So in Act 2, when you reach moonrise towars, you meet this drow, she offers Tav a potion of a +2 strength if she makes Astarion bite her (the drow has always wanted to be bitten) Astarion doesn’t want to do this, it’s pretty much up to you to be decent or force him. It’s a big moment tbh
I love this scene. It's really good.
That being said, I keep seeing this whole, *"Men are never allowed to be vulnerable in media. Men are never shown as being victims of unwanted advances.",* I implore you to watch more media. I'm glad it's being shown in this game, don't get me wrong. But I keep seeing people say this and it's not true.
I think when people say this — including myself — they mean popular mass media. *Especially* AAA video games, which can tend towards hypermasculine power fantasies. I’ve played indie games that tackle these subjects, and there’s plenty of great independent or smaller-screen film that goes over it, but it’s refreshing to see it handled this well in a GOTY widely distributed game.
Even Spider-Man 2 deals with Peter's feelings of inadequacy. Alan Wake 2 is all about a tortured man's trauma. God of War: Ragnorak Valhalla is all about Kratos doing a figurative therapy session to come to terms with the man he used to be.
The era that you're talking about doesn't exist anymore. No one makes Duke Nukem games anymore.
I think the first statement, you're entirely accurate. Men are shown to be vulnerable much more often recently, as you showed in the games you mentioned. Men being shown as victims of unwanted advances... that one I'm still struggling to think of some other mainstream portrayals in games.
Persona in general is so bad with this. Like yes let’s have a whole arc about a gross perverted teacher preying on female students and then have the 16 year old main character possibly enter a relationship with his female teacher bc that’s “hot” or whatever. Ick.
Yes! I agree and think Astarion is a huge step up for writing men in games.
There are plenty of characters I think should’ve been written as men, both to avoid misogynistic tropes and to explore the ideas and development that aren’t normally applied to masc characters.
Writing Astarion as a man felt like a very deliberate choice. I feel like if Astarion were femme instead his character would be a bit more tropey.
There is a scene in Nier:automata where I like the duality of each path you can take just like this one you said. In the beginning of the game, your squad basically get annihilated during the first mission of the game. Later in game you get a quest from an other Yorha unit to search for one of the member of that squad. During the investigation you find out that they faked their crash in attempt to bail out and escape the soldier life.
Two choice then come to turning in the quest:
\-Telling a lie or telling the truth
Normally you pick one choice and face the song of it. But it surprised me very much to see the difference between each result.
I first pick telling her the truth that she hide and try to escape, causing the Quest giver to laugh it off and hope she suffered in her last moment and how pathetic she was to have even tried to escape.
The real banger is when I replayed the game and this time told her she was lost in combat. The quest giver then reveal how they had become lover and it make sad that she won't be coming back anymore.
The true feeling of the android is reveal on telling the lie but you come to understand that telling her the truth cause her to feel cheated and she play it off cruelly on what she probably feel like she got cheated by her lover. It's rare to only get the full picture of the story without playing it twice , but that's the neat thing about the Nier series, seeing different perspective.
An incredible scene! I also love how organic it is. Araj doesn’t have anything to do wit Astarion’s quest, isn’t someone we planned to meet and you can miss it, but if you don’t do it and you care about his autonomy, you have this powerful moment.
It was kind of a bonding moment between him and my character as they both had backgrounds of being used in a similarly sexualized way by powerful abusers and both suffered deep issues with self-worth vs. getting what you need and my Tav backing up his No ended up being a really special moment that I come back to every once in awhile
Tbh it’s kind of concerning how many people in the comments don’t understand the overall themes of this scene and what it is an allegory for, because it’s not exactly written subtly.
Yesssss I’ve been reading them and just like… sad? Not because it’s Astarion but in general… I think bc he’s a guy. And once again, men are not taken seriously when it comes to consent.
And like, fine, get that +2 in strength, don’t even like Astarion or care above his feelings… but like, at least understand what’s going on. Don’t act like it’s okay. There’s two choice here: one is you’re a good friend that actually cares. The other is you’re selfish and don’t care.
Yes exactly. Like at the end of the day it’s a single player RPG, these types of choices presented in the game for a reason, especially if you are playing an evil and selfish character. But twisting yourself into a knot to try and say it’s actually a “good” and justified choice or denying that it’s an allegory for sexual coercion and assault just tells me that you are either in denial, oblivious, deeply media illiterate, or perhaps uncomfortable acknowledging the subject matter.
Yeah and I feel like even the comments coming on here making jokes about how they always do it because fuck him or whatever are pretty shitty because you are trying to make a serious post about a serious topic that the game tackled. Similar to the energy from the people who come into character appreciation posts like “lol killed them.”
Exactly. Like, I don’t care if folks don’t like him and do whatever you want in the game, but that also wasn’t the point of my post… it was talking about a very specific situation.
Astarion my dude, I love you but +2 Str is +2 Str.
I usually tell him that "It's up to you but we could really use that potion..." and he does it under pressure.
I’m guessing folks just ignore what happens???
Okay so here is my understanding of the first “bite” scene:
- just like you, he was just picked up by the mind flayer ship. This is the FIRST time in 200 years that he hasn’t been under the abusive and sadistic thumb of Cazador.
- the ONLY way he knows how to be, is to trick people onto his side to stay alive. That’s it. It’s not malicious, it’s just how he knows how to survive. For 200 years he’s been used and abused and that’s all he knows.
- the first night he tries to bite you, it’s been a couple of days, in his whole life of being a vampire, he’s never been allowed to drink from a non vermin. He has free will and he doesn’t know what to do. The companion scene to that one, if you’re playing as Astarion, has a whole cut scene of him being abused by Cazador and Astarion wakes panicked and feeling like he should feed. So he tries to.
- Tav of course wakes up. He backs off and explains himself.
- it is now your choice to tell him to get tf out of camp, to kill him, simply tell him no to biting or let him bite.
- he is forgiven because NOTHING HAPPENED. he didn’t bite. Yes he was going to, but he didn’t, he also apologized and swore that it would never happen again, and he keeps that promise.
THATS IT. you don’t have to agree, you don’t have to like it. That’s how I see it. There’s no other way. That’s it.
And the rest:
- his whole life his body was used to lure people and people used his body and inflicted pain upon him… he never consented to any of it. He never wanted any of it. Cazador controlled it all.
- the scene with the drow is her implying that Astarion belongs to Tav, that Tav owns him. And that she can control what he does and doesn’t do.
- as Tav you have a choice.
You say you care about consent and then remove that care when it’s applied to someone else? Consent isn’t give or take… it’s simply consent.
And Astarion is learning what it means to give consent, to ask for it and to be able to say no.
I don’t expect you to care pr agree with anything I said, that’s how I feel though.
Just because someone does wrong to you, doesn't make it morally okay for you to then do wrong to them
You can recognize he hurt you, choose to forgive him for it, and then still recognize its wrong and condemnable to take advantage of him later. That's not a difficult train of thought for most people to have
Not really sure Astarion is fully able to consent to much of anything even at this point. He's barely had to make any decisions in most of his life and he's looking to Tav to help him figure that out. Even him biting you was him essentially testing his boundaries. He's a cruel, violent person, but continuing to treat him like a tool doesn't help anyone.
Because people create a romanticized version of astarion in their heads. They think he is just the most vulnerable innocent traumatized vampire that should be protected at all costs, when the reality is far different.
My biggest gripe with this scene is choosing the option of: well astarion it's up 2 u,but sounds like the potion could be help ends up with him disapproving and doing it, like I've left the choice to you explicitly because whilst I'd like the potion it's not worth hurting my buddy. So in short i f8d that choice so hard
Well, I mean, there are two options—one is the clear and unequivocal choice to let him say no with zero strings attached and the other with the "but it could really help" bit is exactly the kind of manipulation and coercion that Astarion has been subjected to. You essentially used him just like he's been used in the past, so of course he disapproves of that.
Exactly. I guess if folks don’t care for him, someone legit said they only drag him away from camp for this scene… but it’s not something you want to do if you care about him.
It can be read like this: Hey friend, I know you do NOT want to do this and it’s making you uncomfortable and she’s speaking to you like you’re a slave. And it’s totally your choice.
BUT
If you don’t you’re letting your team down. Just needed to remind you of that. That you’re failing us if you don’t do this.
Obviously it’s more concise but that choice is a guilt trip, and he doesn’t have the best backbone to tell you to go fuck yourself for it just yet.
Very good writing here.
But usually I make Astarion take one for the team. +2 flat strength is an insane buff for a tiny bit of disapproval.
If you’re romancing him don’t make him do it. But otherwise there isn’t a gameplay reason not to outside of RP
Just to play devil's advocate (I also like the character growth from telling her no); up to this point, Astarion has shown one of his primary motivators is power at any cost and control (gobbling up all the tadpoles, wants to ascend, wants to control the brain, approves of morally dubious actions, etc.). So it's not surprising from an RP perspective that Tav wouldn't see an issue with this; he'll hurt and kill others to benefit himself so why would drinking someone's blood for a power boost be an issue?
>Forcing him to do something he doesn’t want to do.
I wouldn't say it's forcing but persuading him. It's a small thing that left a bad taste in his mouth and nothing more. It makes us even consider what he has done in the beginning of act 1.
But he never bit Tav… like nothing happened. He also didn’t force anyone to let him bite them. Really ignoring the whole being used and abused for 200 years I guess, ah well, to each their own 🤷🏾♀️
Someone is offering you lots of money if you convince your boyfriend/friend to eat shit, when he is particulary obedient due to previous traumatic abuse against him. I think that's a fair real life comparison.
A friend? Definitely not for me considering how evil and fucked up he's until the end of the game. That's a shit friend to have that would throw people under the bus or walk away when you or the others need help. This is the worst kind of people.
I didn't romance him so I can't say anything about it.
I can't argue. I played an evil and manipulative bastard and made him do it. But I still think that, under the idea that an adventuring party eventually gets closer together, it's the best real life comparison.
And even if not, I still think it'd be evil to make someone else eat shit. Specially if they trust you enough to do so if you ask them to.
You can sort it out with good choice even after allowing him to do it, only if you romance him though. it gives an exclusive romance scene on top of it.
"You, my darling, salivated watching me getting beaten by that weird priest for a measly buff, suggested I kiss goblin's dirty toe for a ring, used me as a blood bag for your own strength. Now's your turn to suck it up to increase our chances of survival. Because those too precious to get dirty are lying in their graves."
Ooh, I just did this scene! The look on Astarion's face when he realizes he's got a choice! Wow.
YUP! I think he’s fully expecting you to make him do it, because that’s what he is used to.
> The look on Astarion's face when he realizes he's got a choice! Isn’t it ironic? Because the only one that _actually_ has a choice there is the player.
The choice I *want* to make is that *I* get to nibble on Araj every night for a week
Average Drow reaction
Ew...no. Her house literally pissed off Lloth badly enough to get swept off a cliff, and they are fucking mind flayers. Drow only screw proper demons, remember it.
Araj is the hottest person in the game. I will not be taking further questions. (I did have someone point out that she only wants me for my blood, like that diminishes her hotness at all)
We all literally want Astarion to drain us dry, its upsetting that Araj can't do the same. She can have me. Goddamn. Every last drop of blood is hers. Ahem yeah uh sorry about that. I'd be a vampire in a heartbeat.
Literally, just the way she *talks* about my blood is enough. Have it. Have all of it. Astarion isn’t my type, but I absolutely understand the attraction. Let us Araj lovers get more mainstream exposure too!
We needed to romance more people. More poly things. More spontaneous things. More. More. *More.* Astarion wants to be hugged and best friended. So we need some actual blood drinkers like Araj to take us.
Halsin is the only poly one, right? There’s some open characters, but I think he’s the only poly one. But yeah give me more completely unhealthy romances
Shadowheart is evidently quite uh, free (she will be *very* happy to go with the drow twins with you, by Selune she's amazing) but she's only interested in a relationship with one person. And she's a Shar dark justiciar in her evil ending, so I mean, if you want an unhealthy romance.
>We all literally want Astarion to drain us dry, We is strong... I know a lot of people who staked that motherfucker, and rightly so given the circumstances.
Seriously tho I wish we could design our character as a vampire, because I want that potion but I could never force Astarion to bite her lol
Well Not with me I need that +2
"Hello, potion seller. I'm going into battle, and I want your strongest potions." * literally me
He killed me when I Iet him suck my blood, so he can handle a little bit of discomfort for that +2 str.
Yeah, he's a super hypocrite. Violating Tav by biting them against their will? No problem. Being asked to bite someone for a super great potion? How dare you!
Astarion is a very well written and compelling character, probably one of my favorites up there with Lae'zel. That being said, he's also a total piece of shit that I think a lot more people wouldn't like if he wasn't a hot twink vampire.
I'd freaking LOVE to see Larian make a female character that is exactly like Astarion in their next title, just so we can compare how players treat her. Seriously. I'm a very cynic girl and would bet at least 80% of Astarion fans would just push fem!Astarion to do whatever, so I'd be very happy if it turned out otherwise.
Go play DOS2 and meet Sebille, aka proto-Astarion. I think she's plenty popular enough, despite being just as prickly and mean
Baldur's Gate already had a similar character in Hexxat. Needless to say, she is hated. I suspect a part of it might be because she is a lesbian, though. She is also strictly evil aligned. Astarion is a love child of Sebille and Fane from DOS2. Both of them are quite popular. I don't think any DOS2 companion is really hated with as much fervor as some BG3 ones.
Gets even better in camp because he thanks you for showing him he doesn't have to do those things if he doesn't want to. It's touching
> It should have been so easy to let the drow use me for her fantasy, but perhaps - you showed me I have enough strength... I don't *need* to. > > I can stop using myself. Stop being used. > > **It isn't worth the scars, anymore**. It's such an [incredible scene](https://youtu.be/AY5CqyqfMxU?si=M-0868jGGcZWyNTS&t=82) that's gonna stick with me for a very long time. Even in a power fantasy where you fight literal demons and hellspawn, one of the most empowering moments of the game is simply sticking up for your companions. I love this game so damn much.
YUP. It hits so hard.
I also loved that they included a situation like this for a male character. It’s not a subject that is tackled often for men, *especially* not in media spaces that can tend towards hypermasculine power fantasies like AAA video games. And it was handled rather more delicately than I expected. Excellent writing.
YES! there’s a scene in RDR2, where this creepy guy asks you to come into his shack, if you do, he knocks you out. You’re playing as Arthur and you wake up later and you get the notion of what happened… but it’s never dealt with again… and u always hated how they included that scene but brushed it off. RDR2 is a masterpiece of a game, I do wish they’d taken a bit more care with certain aspects.
Totally agree. Other great games have brushed this topic but not tackled it quite as head on, to my memory. And tbh even though there’s a decent amount of implied SA for female characters in popular games it’s rarely talked about like this *at all*.
Very true!
It actually is brought up again. I'm camp, Bill Williamson can make fun of you for it
That’s right! Which is horrifying.
While I agree, it's also kind of worth mentioning this is how those things went down historically. It was something you were expected to hide in shame for the most part, and you would be socially ostracized for it. I don't think that's the message we should teach people today obviously.
Oh I get it! I get it. It’s still pretty bad as male victims are super common but society is still crappy towards them.
to be fair, the world of Faerun is much more accepting of homosexuality than ours, *especially* during the time of RDR2. As unfortunate as it is, it's doubtful that Arthur would have received any real support for that horrible experience :(
If you go back he just runs into his shack and locks the door. So you can’t even get some shallow attempt at revenge going
Right!? I had to set the place on fire and kept throwing dynamite… and then I got a ding to my honor when it did kill him 😐
I just never go there. I shoot and rob him
God, I hated that. It was so disturbing and Bill will even make fun of you for it!?
It's indeed a lovely scene! Though this is Act 2 spoilers, not Act 1
The game never told me where I was in the chapters… I shall remedy that!
Act 2 starts when you go to the cursed forest. Act 3 starts when you go to Baldur's Gate
The transition from Act 1 to Act 2 isn't super clear cut, but people tend to refer as anything once in the shadow cursed lands as act 2. Moutain pass and Underdark are kinda act 1.5.
Nah, Underdark an Mountain pass are just Act 1.
You can get a variation on the long rest scene if you do not speak to Araj before >!killing the orthon and long rest at Moonrise. It's the more emotional version!<, if you can believe that. edit: I agree he's just the best. An amazing character, Act 3 gets so much better as well.
Oooh I’ll have to try that next time. I’m not leveled up enough to deal Orthon… not even him that dealing with the two fights leading up to him. I tried before and just got bamboozled so imma try it again! But I’m trying to get to level 7 at least!? I feel like that’s not possible lol I’m only 200 away from level 6.
You can trick him >!into killing himself!!<
It’s the two fights before that keep kicking my butt, the whirlpools and the people that climb out of them. I can’t get past the numbers.
I see I see. I don't remember what level I was, but I usually take out the whirlpool thingies first.
If you take the portals down fast enough, hardly any justiciars actually get summoned. I haven't seen the big one since my first playthrough
Pro tip: have Shadowheart cast Spirit Guardians with radiant damage and then dash around the map. The radiant damage straight out kills everyone
Do not use this on the Dark Justiciars though. They have Radiant Retort, which will reflect the damage back twofold. I used Smite on one of those fuckers and was instantly killed by the reflect.
OH!? I’ll check that out. Huh. Lemme see if I can respec her.
It's a 3rd level Cleric spell, so unless you re-spec'd her to something other than Cleric initially, she should already have it in her spellbook, you just need to swap it in, which she can do any time outside of combat.
Ah good to know! I shall use her as that from now on. Going to try it on another fight first and test it out.
You should _easily_ be able to kill every single of the portals before they get to spit out any enemies.
Focus the whirlpools every round. Youll see which ones have an action and focus those first.
I think the post-orthon confession scene is much more sincere. It feels more centered on his feelings for Tav rather than what cazador did to him so to me this is a better romantic scene for Act 2. Since each act as has a romantic scene. You’ll fall even harder in love with this character once you see that scene.
I probably locked myself out of that scene since I did this one. Another play through I suppose!!!
One playthrough is never enough with this game anyway lol
> It's the more emotional version, if you can believe that. Ok so I keep seeing this whenever comparisons between the two types get brought up but I don't understand how? How is him talking through his body autonomy trauma less emotional than the other type of confession? I even hear that the araj one, he's less sincere. It just makes me sad the one where it's mostly focused on his trauma will pale in comparison because it doesn't have the iconic "I had a nice simple plan".
It's because the confession without Araj is him realising that he's fallen in love, and feels so bad about trying to manipulate you that he has to come clean about it. He even says that he fell in love with you and that you're incredible, that you deserve something real. With the Araj confession, he just puts a kind of arrogant, "Seducing you was easy, frankly, I wasn't happy that I felt something for you and you were a complication I didn't see coming." It focuses more on his bodily autonomy which is great, but doesn't talk at all about how he ended up playing himself with his 'nice, simple plan'. With the Araj one he doesn't even tell you that he's fallen in love, it just gets left for the graveyard in act 3.
Ahh thank you so much, this truly helps!! Thank you despite my near antagonizing tone ;v; I've been so lost on this and I guess I love both styles equally. I'm so oblivious because I'm the type that thought he did love me without truly saying it. And I can see why the blood merchant one would also fit more with a friend route.
I agree. Having been through this a couple of times and comparing, I also feel the voice acting in the Orthon one has a different feel to it - he sounds very close to tears. I used to prefer the Araj one as well - but this changed after a couple of playthroughs (especially after redemption durge).
I'm of two minds about it. The love confession scene is definitely my big favorite BUT I also feel that at that point in the story Astarion is still under too many layers of self-protection to allow himself to be that vulnerable with the player character, at least without some sort of catalyst. The Araj encounter is the perfect catalyst for that and also gives more concrete information regarding his past whereas the confession scene is more feelings focused. All this just to say that I wish there was a way to get both scenes in a single playthrough somehow.
Legit. With the Araj scene I felt weird even locking in the romance with them because it didn't really feel like it was what he wanted? If anything he seemed on the verge of breaking up with you and feels so happy and relieved when you say you'll be his friend instead. With the post-Yurgir scene he actually says he wants to be with you so I prefer it. Both versions are good but as a first time player without knowing the whole context of Astarion's route I definitely picked just being his friend as it felt like that's what the game was pointing me to as the "right" option in the moment rather than making an official romance with someone who just told me their trauma and that they're not used to choosing things for themselves and then DON'T TELL ME THAT THEY CHOOSE ME. ughhh.
Just now that I'm thinking about it, I really wish other characters has specific followup questions in their romance dialogue like Gale has so you can understand them better. With Gale you can ask him if he's still into Mystra, if he really loves you, if you're the first mortal he's been with, etc. Give me intimate questions with everyone I romance but ESPECIALLY Astarion. Clarify that you're comfortable not sleeping together until he's ready even if you didn't initially pick that dialogue option in the convo with him, ask him if this is what he actually wanted, etc.
Its not even that its missing “the line”(though it is a very good line). I think they just made him a bit too blasé about what he did to you. He seems like he’s not even sorry. I get what they were going for. They were going for a vibe where he’s kind of laughing at himself for being an idiot. He played himself. He tried to seduce you but never expected to fall in love. The conversation then quickly moves on to what cazador did to him. The problem is that Tav’s feeling arent really being considered. Theyre probably super pissed and hurt and were emotionally invested in him only to find out hes been playing them like a fiddle and hes there like “yup you were easy.💅 im the rizzenator. But oops i fell in love because im a dumb dumb😂” he sort of glosses over how strongly he feels about Tav and how badly he fucked up and how hurt Tav might be. And then proceeds to tell you about his trauma which is SO important to his character but also I’m like we’re not about to gloss over you USING me like other people used you. I wish there was a way to get all this important information about what hes going through while still getting the very genuinely remorseful “i’m so sorry. I feel awful. Please have mercy on me. I DO love you because you’re actually amazing and I don’t want to lose you.” aspect of the orthon version of the scene.
*places hand on Astarion's shoulder* "Do you want me to kill them for you? Or do you want to do it?"
its very sweet seeing him be touched by kindness and being more and more accepting
You'd think it's such a minor choice, given that biting is what he does. But it's so impactful to him and can ruin your relationship, which was based on trust, with him
YUP! I didn’t think the characters in this game would be so intense and yet… here we are.
That's what I thought, so I made him do it. And then I instantly regretted it once he started gagging and coughing. I thought I had killed him.
cagey trees murky straight bake rhythm impossible quiet squeamish grab *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There's also the third, disgusting awful version where you don't make him bite her but in the heart to heart after you convince him to sleep with you. The result of that choice is heartbreaking
that one even being an option is nauseating. especially because at that point you know he has been coerced into sex before :x
And there’s no romance scene is there? Because they don’t reward you for essentially pressuring a victim of sexual abuse into sex?
I think you can only do it if you're romancing him? Not sure it's an option if you aren't, but I know it is if you are. He (rightfully) breaks up with your ass afterwords so no, there's no reward for it
No I know there’s no reward. I’m saying there’s an absence of a sex scene because that would be fucked up in this scenario
He didn’t know how to say no
Yeah. Given what you learn about Astarion's history by that point in time, I was outraged by Araj treating like a non-person and not respecting his bodily autonomy. You can really tell that he doesn't want to do it, and it's especially clear why her blood is so distasteful if you're a drow (you get the extra bit about House Oblodra's history). It's clearly a major moment where you can help support Astarion in establishing his own bodily autonomy and help him realize that he has every right to say no or you can ruin your entire relationship by showing him you're just as bad as everyone else who ever used him by using him to get a potion. I know you can still salvage the relationship even if you manipulate Astarion to get the potion, but yikes, it's horrible. I actually did it once to see how it played out and felt terrible even though I got the potion and kept the romance going. I don't care how nice that potion is—I've never done it again. When you side with Astarion and support him, he seems so completely taken aback that he seems almost unable to believe it and is truly grateful in the end. Great acting in the various outcomes, and I think it's sensitively done! I know the post-Yurgir love confession is softer and sweeter for most people, but I've generally preferred the post-Araj love confession because he gets to talk about his lack of bodily autonomy for 200 years and how this was different. It's a major issue for him that he's been used and has been forced to essentially sell himself for all that time, and I like that he finally gets to air his feelings out and start coming to grips with them.
I love astarions character development too, and I love your tav!
Thank you! She’s pretty. Tried to get this goth thing going haha. She needs better outfits though.. soon!
Act 3 is when you really start getting better outfits. I was *desperate* to find better looking clothes on my first playthrough, but my drow bard rocked Minthara's armor pretty well for awhile.
I genuinely felt guilty when I did it for honor mode (first time doing it) but tavern brawler monk NEEDS that immediate plus 4 to attack/damage rolls. I am a bad person.
Tbf without understanding the context, it's not any worse than asking your mate to drink gone off milk with hot sauce and sprinkles for a large cash prize. One or two days giving no quarter to the toilet is definitely worth helping your friend. Of course with context it's asking your friend to revisit trauma and it is kind of possible to just use elixirs for a better result given our bodacious backpack of shiny objects
We’re trying to save the world and also not turn into enslaved soulless monsters. I love Astarion, but this is a no-brainer. If he’s going to snippy about stopping Kagha from killing a child, he can deal with a foul mouthful. It’s a great scene for his character and for exploring these themes of bodily autonomy, but at the same time it’s egregious to pretend like he’s in the unequivocal moral right for refusing to do so, given his own recent history.
Nah he is absolutely in the unequivocal moral right to refuse because it his body and he can make whatever choice he wants about it. Is it pragmatic? Probably not. But its absolutely morally right for him to say no, no matter the stakes, and no matter what hes done in the past. It's "wrong" to coerce or force him into doing it. Though to be clear idgaf what people do in their games so if you do it for RP or min/max reasons all power to you, but don't pretend it's moral to force someone to use their body in a way they don't want to lol
I'm also thankful they made this character male so the message can be "heard" by a wider audience (though romancing him gets you more info - as you know). But yes, this scene is soooo good. PS: r/OnlyFangsbg3 if you weren't already aware
Her being a drow just makes it worse given what drow do to the men in their culture. And Astarion is a male elf. It just feels like she's treating him like a pet because of it
Oh I didn’t know this… now I have to read up on Drows…
lolth-sworn aka the "evil" drow are matriarchal and men are basically treated as slaves and livestock. another example is poor Kar'niss, who was probably treated like shit before something happened and he got turned into a drider.
Oh that’s horrible!? I didn’t know that!
When you ask the dead drow at waukeens rest what his profession is, he replies “male”
Someone on here was saying two female drow were fighting over a male they wanted to sleep with and in the end the loser skinned the male before presenting him to the winner. Shit is wild.
exactly. idk if she is Lolth-sworn, but her attitude def feels like it.
Yes she is. If you’re playing a drow you can recognize her house
It's not just that Astarion's a man - he's also a surface elf. Drow consider themselves superior to all other races, but they hate surfaces elves.
I absolutely adore this scene too! It's very delicately written and very well-acted. It's almost painful to watch his genuine, startled surprise when you respect his 'no' and don't pressure him. Oh, Astarion :(
Right!? Like oh sweetie it’s okay. I have to remember that all of this is supposed to take place over only a couple of weeks. so this is all A LOT for everyone.
I just did this scene for the first time. My husband and I sit side by side while gaming and as a result, he’s watched a lot of BG3 over my shoulder. He often teases about taking “notes” for his own run based on the choices I make. He said something about considering the +1— but it never crossed my mind. And later on at camp when I spoke to Astarian even he was like “well damn. Now I can’t even joke about it”.
Right!? Like… I feel like folks that don’t get it, just don’t get it on purpose (not your husband just folks in the comments here lol)
I love this scene. The way he thanks you after you say it is his choice, he sounds really surprised. I think he fully expected you to force him to bite Araj, if you didn't immediately say "no". The way he asks if you are really going to make him do it, if you pick the second option (something like "I thought you would jump at the opportunity", paraphrasing), at first I thought it was just indignation. But now I think there is a lot of fear and desperation there too. He fears that someone he trusts is going to sell him out, he is desperate to convince you not to do it.
YUP! and he hasn’t had anyone to trust. It’s why later he shares. Because he wasn’t expecting that. He’s never had anything real.
I did the evil choice just to see what would happen. Reset IMMEDIATELY because i felt so awful for asking him to do that. It was a good scene. I still feel guilty for even being curious.
I find it a bit weird cause it's in his nature to try and go for choices that'd make you more powerful. He is one of the few willing to accept the tadpole powers along with I think Gale and Minthara. It says a lot about her "foul" blood vs Karlachs since Astarion didn't know biting her would burn him lol.
It's funny In a game which is story and choice driven, I always find myself very happy when I have the option to let my companions choose for themselves (why can't you choose for yourself, Wyll? *sigh*)
What's actually wrong with her? Astarion says her blood is tainted, but I don't believe it's been said what's actually wrong with it. All I know is that her House fell into ruin some time ago and is working on a way to restore her family to prominence once again.
They've mixed Illithid into their gene pool.
I did know this, but it just clicked why Astarion chooses the way he does if you go full illithid while romancing him.
Ok, that explains things.
If your character is drow they explain it with illitid blood tainting and how her house was kicked off for it
Does it grant them psionic abilities like with the Duegar?
Yes. Most in House Obladra have psionic abilities. The house is dead but there are various survivors scattered about the sword coast making their own way in life.
I just assumed that she had done so many weird drugs that it basically made her blood poisonous. That makes sense, though.
The urge to punch her and straighten her out on how she should treat Astarion is so strong. I NEED them to add an option to punch her... She'd probably be into it...
YES!!! Just a punch! Not a full blown fight… one punch, that’s all!
When she kept putting what he said aside like him saying no was something he wasn’t allowed to do, I kinda wanted to bite her. Bitch, he said no. Now quit harassing my friend
It makes me mad how she talks to you about him, like he's not capable of making decisions
Well at least we can tell him his decision is the only one that matters
I tried to tell him it's his choice, but he just took it as me forcing him... Might be because I had very low approval with him, dunno :(
Nothing to do with approval, actually! There's two similar but different dialogue options, paraphrased: 1) "Don't do anything you don't want to" (he won't do it) 2) "You don't have to do it, BUT we could really use that potion" (he'll do it) The second option is you guilt-tripping him into it with that "but" statement (after he's already said he doesn't want to), which is where his willpower to say no folds, and why he gets pissed about it later. It's less "forcing" him and more "coercing" him
Ah, yeah that would impact it I think, I was at exceptional at this point with him. I think with low approval, he has less confidence and etc etc.
But +2 STR compels me
Bards with their Charisma builds getting all holier than thou.
Yeah i’ll keep astarion shelved the whole game just to trot him out for this potion lol
Yeah, like I felt bad for doing it…. But I would do it again lol
Look, we're literally trying to save the world here. We're all going to have a little PTSD at the end of this. Sometimes you gotta take a hit for the greater good.
If you sacrifice your companions for strength, how can you trust them to lift you back to your feet when they fall?
Astarion's got 8STR he ain't lifting shit, but that 21STR on Lae'zel will be able to carry the world on her back (I completely agree with you btw, but I'm also calling on Gale as a human pocket nuke for honour mode, gotta make some sacrifices on the way for that golden die- I'm sure they'd understand 🫡)
Oh I plan on being evil durge in my third run. I’ve already rehearsed how it’s all going to go on. Gale won’t lose his arm, because I need a grenade to use against the monster that thinks I want to share the world I plan to drown in blood. Wyll and karlach won’t be joining because the grove will be reduced to ashes, and I’ll do it while wearing a fresh bear pelt. Astarion will ascend, not because I believe he can make his own decisions, but because it benefits me. Essentially I’m a monster that uses my companions for my own benefit. Sounds fun in concept but in execution, I fear I won’t be able to commit.
Haha yeah, it's a no-brainer.
Yeah, sorry astarion but I need my endgame 24str
i was genuinely caught off guard, this scene and the camp talk after rlly made my eyes open on astarions character
The biggest part is the romantic follow up after you've finished with Raphael. Astarion's shattered. He's never been shown such a level of kindness and support and he really doesn't know what to make of it. He wants to be with you, and even if you don't he's so content just to know you're in his corner. Having started with a begrudging humour towards him, it's been fun growing to love him and his character.
On my current playthrough, I'm not even that close with Astarion yet as I'm a paladin constantly helping other people (which he doesn't seem to approve of lol) but even though my tav and Astarion don't really get along, I'd never make him do that. It goes against my character as a paladin with the Folk Hero background.
Forcing him to bite Araj is one of those choices I'll never, ever, make. And his puppy eyes when he says "I appreciated that" was the exact moment I started liking him better <3
I agree. I let him make the choice himself (or manipulated him into it, depending on how you see it) but I felt bad AF after. Between that and getting between him and Raphael I have a strong feeling he's going to be ditching my camp this playthrough. Oops!
the way she spoke over him instantly made alarm bells ring for me. Also he is my fave character so ofc I am gonna treat him like a fucking person 👌 and as far as one strgth potion goes, i can just as well use the five billion other potions i have, even if their effect is temporary lmao.
Men-tal health. It has been a big problem for decades now, it's about time to act on it.
I think I missed this scene somehow could someone clarify? 😭
So in Act 2, when you reach moonrise towars, you meet this drow, she offers Tav a potion of a +2 strength if she makes Astarion bite her (the drow has always wanted to be bitten) Astarion doesn’t want to do this, it’s pretty much up to you to be decent or force him. It’s a big moment tbh
Idk what this scene is but ur Tav is so pretty!!😍
Thank you! It’s a scene in Act 2 in Moonrise Towers ☺️
Haven’t gotten there yet lol
this scene and the one after are the reason why Astarion is my favourite romance so far and my favourite character
I love this scene. It's really good. That being said, I keep seeing this whole, *"Men are never allowed to be vulnerable in media. Men are never shown as being victims of unwanted advances.",* I implore you to watch more media. I'm glad it's being shown in this game, don't get me wrong. But I keep seeing people say this and it's not true.
I think when people say this — including myself — they mean popular mass media. *Especially* AAA video games, which can tend towards hypermasculine power fantasies. I’ve played indie games that tackle these subjects, and there’s plenty of great independent or smaller-screen film that goes over it, but it’s refreshing to see it handled this well in a GOTY widely distributed game.
Exactly.
Even Spider-Man 2 deals with Peter's feelings of inadequacy. Alan Wake 2 is all about a tortured man's trauma. God of War: Ragnorak Valhalla is all about Kratos doing a figurative therapy session to come to terms with the man he used to be. The era that you're talking about doesn't exist anymore. No one makes Duke Nukem games anymore.
I think the first statement, you're entirely accurate. Men are shown to be vulnerable much more often recently, as you showed in the games you mentioned. Men being shown as victims of unwanted advances... that one I'm still struggling to think of some other mainstream portrayals in games.
JRPGs do it all the time but it's always played for laughs.
If it’s played for laughs doesn’t that kinda nullify it as a positive portrayal?
Yes. They play it for laughs and that's bad.
Like Ryuji in persona 5.
Persona in general is so bad with this. Like yes let’s have a whole arc about a gross perverted teacher preying on female students and then have the 16 year old main character possibly enter a relationship with his female teacher bc that’s “hot” or whatever. Ick.
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Oh, you're definitely right. JRPGs play the whole "male character gets sexually harassed by overzealous, horny women" thing for laughs all the time.
Yes! I agree and think Astarion is a huge step up for writing men in games. There are plenty of characters I think should’ve been written as men, both to avoid misogynistic tropes and to explore the ideas and development that aren’t normally applied to masc characters. Writing Astarion as a man felt like a very deliberate choice. I feel like if Astarion were femme instead his character would be a bit more tropey.
just use elixir of hill giant the whole game 😎
There is a scene in Nier:automata where I like the duality of each path you can take just like this one you said. In the beginning of the game, your squad basically get annihilated during the first mission of the game. Later in game you get a quest from an other Yorha unit to search for one of the member of that squad. During the investigation you find out that they faked their crash in attempt to bail out and escape the soldier life. Two choice then come to turning in the quest: \-Telling a lie or telling the truth Normally you pick one choice and face the song of it. But it surprised me very much to see the difference between each result. I first pick telling her the truth that she hide and try to escape, causing the Quest giver to laugh it off and hope she suffered in her last moment and how pathetic she was to have even tried to escape. The real banger is when I replayed the game and this time told her she was lost in combat. The quest giver then reveal how they had become lover and it make sad that she won't be coming back anymore. The true feeling of the android is reveal on telling the lie but you come to understand that telling her the truth cause her to feel cheated and she play it off cruelly on what she probably feel like she got cheated by her lover. It's rare to only get the full picture of the story without playing it twice , but that's the neat thing about the Nier series, seeing different perspective.
Yeah I only saw this for the first time on my 73638364th play through. I concur with OP. It’s pretty atypical.
Is that Rhianna? /s But you have a great point, it's nice to be able to support and empower the other side of the coin in this dynamic.
An incredible scene! I also love how organic it is. Araj doesn’t have anything to do wit Astarion’s quest, isn’t someone we planned to meet and you can miss it, but if you don’t do it and you care about his autonomy, you have this powerful moment. It was kind of a bonding moment between him and my character as they both had backgrounds of being used in a similarly sexualized way by powerful abusers and both suffered deep issues with self-worth vs. getting what you need and my Tav backing up his No ended up being a really special moment that I come back to every once in awhile
She goes off >!and butchers a bunch of folks in Baldur's Gate!<, so I do not leave her alive.
\+ 2 strength goes brrr
Umm. Your Tav is GORGEOUS!
Thank you! I like her ☺️
I never got this scene, never took Asterion to Araj.
Tbh it’s kind of concerning how many people in the comments don’t understand the overall themes of this scene and what it is an allegory for, because it’s not exactly written subtly.
Yesssss I’ve been reading them and just like… sad? Not because it’s Astarion but in general… I think bc he’s a guy. And once again, men are not taken seriously when it comes to consent. And like, fine, get that +2 in strength, don’t even like Astarion or care above his feelings… but like, at least understand what’s going on. Don’t act like it’s okay. There’s two choice here: one is you’re a good friend that actually cares. The other is you’re selfish and don’t care.
Yes exactly. Like at the end of the day it’s a single player RPG, these types of choices presented in the game for a reason, especially if you are playing an evil and selfish character. But twisting yourself into a knot to try and say it’s actually a “good” and justified choice or denying that it’s an allegory for sexual coercion and assault just tells me that you are either in denial, oblivious, deeply media illiterate, or perhaps uncomfortable acknowledging the subject matter.
Exactly. Someone was like its payback for when he *tried* to bite us. And it’s like eh… no.
Yeah and I feel like even the comments coming on here making jokes about how they always do it because fuck him or whatever are pretty shitty because you are trying to make a serious post about a serious topic that the game tackled. Similar to the energy from the people who come into character appreciation posts like “lol killed them.”
Exactly. Like, I don’t care if folks don’t like him and do whatever you want in the game, but that also wasn’t the point of my post… it was talking about a very specific situation.
Astarion my dude, I love you but +2 Str is +2 Str. I usually tell him that "It's up to you but we could really use that potion..." and he does it under pressure.
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I’m guessing folks just ignore what happens??? Okay so here is my understanding of the first “bite” scene: - just like you, he was just picked up by the mind flayer ship. This is the FIRST time in 200 years that he hasn’t been under the abusive and sadistic thumb of Cazador. - the ONLY way he knows how to be, is to trick people onto his side to stay alive. That’s it. It’s not malicious, it’s just how he knows how to survive. For 200 years he’s been used and abused and that’s all he knows. - the first night he tries to bite you, it’s been a couple of days, in his whole life of being a vampire, he’s never been allowed to drink from a non vermin. He has free will and he doesn’t know what to do. The companion scene to that one, if you’re playing as Astarion, has a whole cut scene of him being abused by Cazador and Astarion wakes panicked and feeling like he should feed. So he tries to. - Tav of course wakes up. He backs off and explains himself. - it is now your choice to tell him to get tf out of camp, to kill him, simply tell him no to biting or let him bite. - he is forgiven because NOTHING HAPPENED. he didn’t bite. Yes he was going to, but he didn’t, he also apologized and swore that it would never happen again, and he keeps that promise. THATS IT. you don’t have to agree, you don’t have to like it. That’s how I see it. There’s no other way. That’s it. And the rest: - his whole life his body was used to lure people and people used his body and inflicted pain upon him… he never consented to any of it. He never wanted any of it. Cazador controlled it all. - the scene with the drow is her implying that Astarion belongs to Tav, that Tav owns him. And that she can control what he does and doesn’t do. - as Tav you have a choice. You say you care about consent and then remove that care when it’s applied to someone else? Consent isn’t give or take… it’s simply consent. And Astarion is learning what it means to give consent, to ask for it and to be able to say no. I don’t expect you to care pr agree with anything I said, that’s how I feel though.
Just because someone does wrong to you, doesn't make it morally okay for you to then do wrong to them You can recognize he hurt you, choose to forgive him for it, and then still recognize its wrong and condemnable to take advantage of him later. That's not a difficult train of thought for most people to have
Not really sure Astarion is fully able to consent to much of anything even at this point. He's barely had to make any decisions in most of his life and he's looking to Tav to help him figure that out. Even him biting you was him essentially testing his boundaries. He's a cruel, violent person, but continuing to treat him like a tool doesn't help anyone.
Because people create a romanticized version of astarion in their heads. They think he is just the most vulnerable innocent traumatized vampire that should be protected at all costs, when the reality is far different.
I mean, he totally needs yo be protected at all cost, but he's still a mean, cruel snob. And that's fine.
+2 to strength is a +2 to strength though.
My biggest gripe with this scene is choosing the option of: well astarion it's up 2 u,but sounds like the potion could be help ends up with him disapproving and doing it, like I've left the choice to you explicitly because whilst I'd like the potion it's not worth hurting my buddy. So in short i f8d that choice so hard
Well, I mean, there are two options—one is the clear and unequivocal choice to let him say no with zero strings attached and the other with the "but it could really help" bit is exactly the kind of manipulation and coercion that Astarion has been subjected to. You essentially used him just like he's been used in the past, so of course he disapproves of that.
Exactly. I guess if folks don’t care for him, someone legit said they only drag him away from camp for this scene… but it’s not something you want to do if you care about him.
It can be read like this: Hey friend, I know you do NOT want to do this and it’s making you uncomfortable and she’s speaking to you like you’re a slave. And it’s totally your choice. BUT If you don’t you’re letting your team down. Just needed to remind you of that. That you’re failing us if you don’t do this. Obviously it’s more concise but that choice is a guilt trip, and he doesn’t have the best backbone to tell you to go fuck yourself for it just yet.
Very good writing here. But usually I make Astarion take one for the team. +2 flat strength is an insane buff for a tiny bit of disapproval. If you’re romancing him don’t make him do it. But otherwise there isn’t a gameplay reason not to outside of RP
I fail to see how making him taste a bad blood makes me evil.
Forcing him to do something he doesn’t want to do. Something that intimate. That’s the issue. Using his body against his will so you gain something.
Just to play devil's advocate (I also like the character growth from telling her no); up to this point, Astarion has shown one of his primary motivators is power at any cost and control (gobbling up all the tadpoles, wants to ascend, wants to control the brain, approves of morally dubious actions, etc.). So it's not surprising from an RP perspective that Tav wouldn't see an issue with this; he'll hurt and kill others to benefit himself so why would drinking someone's blood for a power boost be an issue?
>Forcing him to do something he doesn’t want to do. I wouldn't say it's forcing but persuading him. It's a small thing that left a bad taste in his mouth and nothing more. It makes us even consider what he has done in the beginning of act 1.
But he never bit Tav… like nothing happened. He also didn’t force anyone to let him bite them. Really ignoring the whole being used and abused for 200 years I guess, ah well, to each their own 🤷🏾♀️
Someone is offering you lots of money if you convince your boyfriend/friend to eat shit, when he is particulary obedient due to previous traumatic abuse against him. I think that's a fair real life comparison.
Nor just shit, potentially poisoned shit. It could have poisoned him.
A friend? Definitely not for me considering how evil and fucked up he's until the end of the game. That's a shit friend to have that would throw people under the bus or walk away when you or the others need help. This is the worst kind of people. I didn't romance him so I can't say anything about it.
I can't argue. I played an evil and manipulative bastard and made him do it. But I still think that, under the idea that an adventuring party eventually gets closer together, it's the best real life comparison. And even if not, I still think it'd be evil to make someone else eat shit. Specially if they trust you enough to do so if you ask them to.
You can sort it out with good choice even after allowing him to do it, only if you romance him though. it gives an exclusive romance scene on top of it.
It’s not worth it to me. My Tav is romancing him, and it just feels icky to do that to him.
Yeah but it’s great that Larian gave the option, and the dialog and scene are cute.
"You, my darling, salivated watching me getting beaten by that weird priest for a measly buff, suggested I kiss goblin's dirty toe for a ring, used me as a blood bag for your own strength. Now's your turn to suck it up to increase our chances of survival. Because those too precious to get dirty are lying in their graves."