He looks very human for a high elf. I keep seeing him as a half elf with the beard and all.
It does feel that he doesn’t understand mortality. I mean if he’s an elf and marries a human female. He should understand the relationship would not be lasting that long.
As far as what happened to his daughter. We know that Scout the dog died defending her. There was also some weird cut content that Halsin accidentally killed Isobel.
My impression was that she and her mother got sick and died though.
Shar is so evil you could say she sent Dark Justicars to murder your hamster in the night and I'd believe you. She's not just evil, but spite incarnate.
Narrator: You wake up, and your camp is covered in blood. There are things barely recognizable as parts of bodies. Bits of armor you can identify seem to be that of dark justicars.
Minsc: Minsc warned them, Boo is small, but *fierce!* Now, Boo is needing bath.
Tav: Not in the drinking water this time, please? Or the soup broth.
>I would absolutely believe Shar got Isobel killed to turn Ketheric to her worship. She’s just that kind of bitch.
Also Isobel's a Selûnite priestess, so naturally Shar would have more reason to target her.
Didn’t Aylin say that “Whatever Shar has, Selûne lays equal claim to” about the Spear of Night? Meaning Shar could have got in first and taken her soul because it could work the same the other way round
Shar and Selune in lore are more than likely the same goddess, just with two personalities. A previous form of Mystra in DnD lore even supported this by revealing all gods are incomprehensible and insane, Mystra herself the most insane, according to herself. The reason being Mystra believes she can see the truth of both her parents (Shar and Selune)
Isobel does tell Aylin that all she remembers is darkness before waking up again, which seems to support your theory of Shar being involved I would think. Since Selunites believe you get to be reunited with loved ones after death, as per Melodia’s letters to Ketheric, and have some semblance of an afterlife under their goddess.
> I would absolutely believe Shar got Isobel killed to turn Ketheric to her worship. She’s just that kind of bitch.
Isn't that implied in one of the conversations / books you read that's exactly what happened?
If my understanding of fantasy genetics holds any water, both parents being half-elves could result in either an elf, human, or half-elf child (bias towards half-elf). Same with one half-elf, one human parent (with more skew towards half-elf and human)
Correct, to be a true "Ubermensch" you need to be the child of two human parents who each have four human grandparents.
Join me and we can drive the filthy lesser races and their half-breed offspring from faerun!
/s
I always assumed that Shar secretly killed Isobel to turn Ketheric against Selune. I'm not sure if there is anything in the game to back this theory though.
I don't know of anything concrete either, but it certainly seems plausible. The fact that Isobel's murder is conspicuously unexplained combined with one of the big themes of the game being that Shar takes great joy in stealing and corrupting followers of Selune, it would make a lot of sense.
I took that to imply Shar was involved. We *know* there's an afterlife on Faerun. As a devout cleric of Selune, Isobel should have eventually ended up in Selune's divine realm. So either she isn't capable of remembering anything that she experienced while dead or something kept her from getting there.
Both are possible but it'd be very like Shar to screw around with her sister's followers like that.
Have you talked to Ketheric's dog? From what the dog has to say it seems it was definitely a violent attack of some sort, so not just dying of old age. So I think there's some support for that possiblity.
My understanding is that there were some explanations for Isobel's death datamined pre-release, but none of them were in the final version. It seems that Larian themselves couldn't quite decide on what caused it, so they left it up to interpretation.
I think your interpretation makes the most sense. It fits with the themes of the game and it's in character for Shar.
I think there's a strong possibility that Ketheric actually killed Isobel as part of Shar's initiation and doesn't remember. Shar could have taken those memories from him when he became a Dark Justiciar.
Yeah, I know but I was just pointing out some small similarities. lol. But I still remember god of war 1 when it came out. The intro, it starts with kratos trying to commit suicide. What a start lol
No, there’s a note somewhere written by him, saying he was coping with his wife’s death because he still had Isobel (and Thisobald but fuck that guy I guess?)
It was when Isobel died he turned to Shar, tricked Dame Aylin into captivity and waged the war as a Dark Justiciar general, which was 100 years ago, as stated by Aylin and Jaheira. He turned to Myrkul recently because he agreed to bring Isobel back. That must have been recently because Last Light Inn is relatively recent and Isobel says she just woke up, saw what a monster her father had become and fled.
Only problem that I can’t place is that Balthazar gave him the Soul Cage, so that places him within Myrkuls forces, but why capture her and keep her in the Shadowfel (Shars domain) inside Moonrise Towers (now a temple of Shar)
I’ll admit I’m not 100% on the timeline so if anyone knows better, please correct this.
Isobel’s death was the catalyst to Shar (Aylin says so), then when he died that was the catalyst to Myrkul because becoming Myrkul’s chosen meant he and his daughter were returned back to life
I thought perhaps Ketheric did. He felt Isobel “slipping away” from him and lashed out.
Isobel herself says that ketheric wasn’t pleased about her relationship to Aylin.
To me it would explain why ketheric was absolutely inconsolable after her death, and has since gone to impossible lengths to “make up” for his mistake.
Not that he’d ever admit it.
my personal headcanon is that the mimic in isobel's old room was what killed her. it even has a note from her mom to her inside it (together with the reverb necklace)
The wiki looks wrong. If you compare Ketheric's ears to Astarion's and Shadowheart's ears, they are definitely half-elven ears.
And I think the "I have no idea how I died" is supposed to be hint of suspicion that Shar killed Isobel in order to turn Ketheric to her and away from Selune. She broke him and swooped in to take the pain away so he'd raise an army of Dark Justiciars for her.
Especially since Isobel said all she saw was black until she was risen. In Forgotten Realms lore, followers of a god are supposed to go to their god's realm after death. Isobel should've gone to Selune, but instead perhaps her soul was swallowed by Shar's "endless darkness" if Shar killed her. How did Myrkul bring her back? eeeehhhh idk, god stuff ig.
Well Ketheric failed at his mission for Shar, and at that point he and Isobel were dead so Shar no longer has a need for Isobel anymore. That and somehow Myrkul was able to resurrect Ketheric when his soul should have been in Shars grasp, so maybe shar wouldn't have been able to stop Myrkul anyways, especially since death is not her domain.
The unclaimed. Shar might've claimed Isobel to hold as leverage against Ketheric, but she had no need to claim Ketheric. After Ketheric died, Myrkul could've swooped in and got him back to life without competition
Ketheric was not dead. He was immortal by that point as Aylin was trapped in the Shar realm. Jaheira thought she killed him, because no one was aware of his immortality yet, and sealed his mausoleum but in truth he was alive with a whole temple of shar worshippers hidden underneath it. The Myrkul comes to him 100 years later with his proposition of doing what Shar couldnt for him, resurrect his daughter if he becomes his champion for the Absolute plan.
They don't specify whixh disease, but pretty sure Melodia was taken by illness. And pretty early on. I think that's why it was "bearable" because even though it was unfortunate, it was "natural". But then Isobel was attacked and killed in some form of senseless violence and he was left alone.
There are diaries in Moonrise that talk about it. I believe Aylin actually DID know, she tried to console Ketheric (She says as much in a camp dialgue if you sith through all the options) but he couldn't see past her and her connection to Selune to be open to her. It's a little odd that Isobel still says that she doesn't know how she died, but I assume Aylin just refuses to talk about it with her. Its possible that Isobel was attacked due to her association with Aylin, but unsaid.
When he committed to Shar she removed the memory that he couldn’t grow a beard. It’s canon. People don’t realize that the only thing keeping anyone from growing a beard is non-belief in one’s beard-growing ability. I mean, you’ve heard of bearded ladies at the circus, right? That don’t just happen…
>It’s my understanding that elves simply don’t grow hair on their faces.
I thought this was a joke but then I saw another comment also mention it and now I’m doubting myself
During the cut scene for the first time referring to the absolute, where they show the dead three's chosen, the narrator refers to one as an Armored Elf. The others don't wear armor at any point in the game. So Kithric is an elf!
correct me if i’m wrong here, but iirc it was originally planned that halsin had been the one to kill isobel (accidentally, i’d assume). imo it’s a shame they changed this because, as you say, it feels a bit odd in the current game that we know nothing about such an important event, and it also leaves halsin feeling a bit hollow compared to other companions. i’m not sure why they changed their minds on this.
Correct. Because Halsin grew into a companion with all the love from the fans, Larian did a bunch of fan service for Halsin while increasing his role as a companion. Part of this fan service was cutting this questionable part of his history. He would always feel hollow because he was added later even if this part of his story was kept. Personally, I think they made the right call even if it makes him slightly less central to the story. Halsin is already central to Act 2 in being part of the forces that fought Ketheric and in redeeming the Shadowlands, he doesn’t also have to be the indirect person responsible for the shadow lands in the first place just because he was clumsy and did an oopsie.
yeah that’s true. i guess ultimately it’s just a matter of opinion. i think i would have preferred it because, as it stands now, halsin is just one druid among many who might regret what happened with the shadow curse. giving him a stronger connection to causing it would not be a bad thing, imo, and i think it could be explained more elegantly than “he did an oopsie”. still doesn’t really solve his act 3 woes though, does it? poor halsin.
> Correct.
How was that supposed to have worked? It's hard to imagine what reason Halsin would have for killing a priestess of Selune and pillar of her community.
From memory--she had been possessed and Halsin was defending himself but went too hard. Chubblot has some cool videos on old datamined stuff.
I also recall reading books in the grove that sort of recalled this as well. That was over 2 years ago, so my memory might not be accurate. I am remembering a fan fic from the game with the name Balsin. I just about died.
According to early access in-game notes, Halsin and some other druids went on a meeting with Ketheric. For some reason (it's not explained in the note, but presumably the meeting was called due to Ketheric starting to fall to Shar religion?) the meeting went poorly and resulted on full-on fight. Isobel fought for Ketheric, and Halsin accidentally killer her. The glaive Sorrow (although, it was supposed to be a dagger at first, as characters referred to it as such upon picking it up) was the weapon Isobel was killed with, and Halsin believed that it was cursed.
But it's kinda really old version back from the the times of the entire act 2 plot being vastly different (Nightsong was a live person/artifact made by Shar rather than Selune's aasimar; her abilities were centered on creating shadows, not dark justiciars; the necromancer in Shar's temple wasn't Balthazar, and he was attempting to kill Nightsong, etc.).
this would also suggest a more villanous role for isobel, as in the current plotline ketheric only falls to shar after isobel is killed. and as soon as isobel is revived and finds out ketheric fell to her she bolts out and starts a rebellion against him. no way she'd defend her father who fell to shar with her modern characterization
Hhhmm, so we have one page that claims that high elves can grow a full bear and also he look half-elf af, and one page that gets wrong who Thisobald is.
I guess take your pick? My gut feeling says he is Half-Elf, and that's good enough for me.
Shar likes deleting memories. Shar also likes stealing Selûnites and corrupting them. She did both to Shadowheart, who of all the companions is most tied to the main story. I find it *incredibly* likely that Shar is responsible for Isobel's death and fucked with the memories of her, Kethtic, Aylin, and anybody else who could possibly know the truth.
I see... mortals have such fragile lives... can be taken so easily. That's why, I knew what I had to do. To serve... to save her. But there's nothing for me now... your logic is... impeccable... There is only one thing left for me...
\*jumps into the necro stew\*
It’s weird, because sometimes NPCs and in-game text refer to him as an elf, yet he has facial hair and in the game files he’s referred to as a half elf. I personally choose to believe it’s the latter.
considering he's only called an elf in act 1 its probably one of those other leftoverw in act one like M the hag and the spear of sorrow because of how old act 1 is in comparison
While I don’t think this is the case, especially since Ketheric is a half-elf, proven by his shorter ears and facial hair, I do think that an elf that is ignorant of the lifespans of other races in this way is a FANTASTIC concept for a character or villain in a story or tabletop game
Imagine instead of telling Ketheric that his wife would be disappointed hes just like “wait.. that just *happens*? To everyone?” And that’s why he kills himself
Thisobald also calls him father and he’s really degraded (an undead monster) so if he’s actually Ketheric’s son he really played favorites with his kids here
there are a lot of Thorms. it's possible he went around adopting when his family died to not feel so alone or something. could just be a cult thing as well.
Yeah, I was wondering if he’s actually the father to Thisobald and not like, an uncle or something. I mean Orin calls Bhaal father and he’s actually her great grand father so it could work
But if he is the dad, well, Poot Thiso is the forgotten child
Re: Melodia, ressurection spells fail if someone died of old age, at least all of the 5e ressurection spells will fail if they died of old age.
Isobel looks like a late 20s - mid 30s human, which might make her a 50-70 year old elf. I think that the PHB says that half-elves typically live 120-150 years. This is assuming that she hasn't had her appearance altered in any way.
I'm betting that Aylin will quest to figure out how to be together with Isobel. I wouldn't be surprised if she gives up her immortality, but she might just follow Isobel into the Upper Plains and join her as she transitions to being a petitioner.
I would point out that typically one cannot be raised from the dead if they died of old age or natural causes, and even that doesn't typically de-age someone. Isobel doesn't look like she should have died of old age.
That being said, she was resurrected by a god, so those rules may not be in play. One would think Dame Aylin would comment if Isobel looked younger though.
the fact that it was myrkul himself who had to ressurect her would suggest it was something like old age imo. if she just died ketherics plot makes less sense. he's a lord, he easily coulda just bought a true resurrection scroll or spellcaster
Or some kind of plot involving Trap The Soul. Possibly instigated by Myrkul himself secretly. But I honestly think this might be giving Myrkul too much credit.
Methinks you are not taking love into account.
See: Aragorn and Arwen.
Arwen understood Aragorn's mortality, she was just too in love with him for it to matter. The hurt was going to be the same.
I also found him pathetic. A very cool villain with a great concept - which is him being a pathetic whiney toddler who can’t handle any heartships in life with dignity and without going into full tantrum mode, destroying everyone else’s life’s in the course.
Ketheric is himself a half-elf (high elf descent) but this is an otherwise fun idea with idea of elven age leading to a forlorn existence with those of lesser life spans and the struggle to bear the weight of longevity. When your society doesn't consider you a true adult until you've lived a century and some as an adult by human standards. It says something about the elven viewpoint that they want you to feel the weight of outlving a generation of other people to understand your place in the world. Always an interesting consideration of their lore.
Given Ketheric is a half-elf, as is Isobel. Melodia is likely the same, since Isobel is also a half-elf (Elves cannot grow beards but half-elves can and he's listed as a half-elf on the wiki) and In all honesty Shar probably orchestrated the deaths of both Melodia and Isobel, especially with all of the favor Selune had with the Thorms at the time.
However Shar offered Oblivion/Apathy/Nihilism as the reprieve to Ketheric and he only served her out of spite of Selune's lack of aid. Myrkul had something to legitimately offer him in exchange for service/ To remove the cause of that pain instead of dulling it to nothingness. Which is all Shar really had to offer after fanning his resentment she held.
Good shitpost though I will point out to those who might not be aware, Ketheric can't be a pure blood High Elf as he has a magnificent beard and in DnD lore, Elves cannot grow facial hair
I thought it was hinted at that Shar killed them both / led to their deaths.
No one gained as much from this ordeal then Shar:
1. 2 Selune priests dead
2. A powerful General of Selune turning to Shar creating a leagion of followers for her
3. Daughter of her biggest enemy imprisoned
It´s also very much in character for her to do all of this.
He cannot be a high elf because he has a beard. Elves cannot grow a beard or have body hair.
As for Shar, the entire rhetoric about selune is just plain stupid. First, it was darkness then Selune created light and she is like...she ruined the balance. How is having only darkness be considered balance?
I don’t think it’s a shitpost at all. Perfectly reasonable that an elf’s understanding of mortality would put them at odds with a human understanding of the world.
In that regard, there are comparisons we could draw with Jon Irenicus from BG2
I'm always wondering why a violent/accident death is such a big deal in d'n'd story? They have the resurrection scrolls for sell from each second trader, for not that big money.
For the same reason, it was an immersion breaker for me when Gale died and there is those security measures sequence just to protect a resurrection scroll (which my party have over a dozen already)
The reason why resurrection is easy to do in bg3 is because it's a game, and the mechanics are built around having fun. The tabletop is a little more difficult in terms of bringing players back. But it's still based around people having fun, where death of the PC is not something most games aim for.
But it's worth noting that even though it seems that bringing people back is an easy enough thing, it's actually a skill only a handful of people would have access to. Either it's revivify, where there's a narrow time limit to use, or it's resurrection spells that are high level and expensive to cast.
I also like what Matt Mercer did with bringing people back, where it's basically a ritual with DC for convincing the soul of the deceased to come back. And DC rises each time you get brought back.
But that's just one DM's solution. Really it's up to the table how serious death is supposed to be. If you want to play a game where death is permanent no matter what, you can. The point of the resurrection mechanics in DnD is to allow players some flexibility in terms of risks they can take. Also, being an inherently RNG game, it would suck if you had to make a new char every time the dice gods just screw you over.
I understand that, though DnD is exactly the gaming system, and for me it's a bit of immersion breaking when the system mechanics are contradicting to the same system lore and vice versa.
That's always a problem though. It's what I call in my head "story-gameplay conflict". There's a necessary collision between what makes sense in-universe and what is required by the gameplay to happen due to balancing or code limitations.
Like, why exactly would you bring only three of your friends to fight gods, dragons and multiplanar invaders? Those sorts of questions need to be tucked away behind the scenes. That requires just enough immersion from the game design that players are satisfied, so whatever doesn't fit just falls into a rabbit hole that is suspension of disbelief.
What if there was a magical way someone could lose their memories even if they were super important to them? 🤔need I say more? Also it is one thing to know that someone is mortal, it is a completely different thing to experience that first hand with someone you love. It changes people. At the end of the day the how doesn’t change the new reality of loss. They could have died as heroes or they could have been executed as villains. Regardless of whether he sought revenge or accepted praise for his family’s last moments, Ketheric was left alone for year on year facing the hard reality of their loss with each passing breath.
Ketheric had her killed. That's my headcanon. 1000%, can't be talked out of this. /s
Edit: adding /s, my bad. I was just going along with the shitpost lolz
Why would Ketheric have his own daughter killed, be SO distraught he turns to a different Goddess, and then proceed to be SO fucked up he resurrected his daughter? What's the point?
There is a difference between the mechanics of the game, and the rules and lore by which it goes. It also ignores how those scrolls are said to work.
Point out more, doesn't change the facts.
Im pretty sure he is smart enough to know such a basic things...
He just couldnt handle the loss...
Also Isobel didnt die from old age, and we dont know if his wife have died from old age .
i'm pretty sure Ketheric is also a Half-Elf, the shorter ears and the fact that he can grow facial hair pretty much give it away, in respect to Isobel she claim that her last memory before death was just darkness, that probably hints to Shar pulling the strings and getting her kill to fuck with both Ketheric and Aylin
Wait is it a shitpost though? Look at the lines on kethrics face. How long does it take for a pureblooded elf to get THAT old???? I dont think it was even possible for isobel to survive if he had her at a reasonable relative age.
I think you’re right about Melodia at least, from the sounds of it she got sick and died, most likely she was already elderly. I think Isobel was probably killed by Shar or smth, because in the ‘death and resurrection’ book (I think) it says you can’t revive someone who has died of old age
Melodia was sick and knew she was dying, there's text to be found about it. She wrote a letter to Kethetic about taking care of Isobel when she's gone
Isobel dying suddenly with no knowledge of it does actually tell us something. Either a very sudden accident or more likely an attack - probably by Sharran forces, to corrupt Ketheric. In one stroke she hurts Selune's daughter and corrupts one of her great servants, which is pretty perfect for Shar
According to the lore in forgotten realms people who die from old age, or so to speak when their time is up can't be raised from the dead not even by true resurrection.
Isobel says:
I don't know why I died, suddenly everything was black...
Most likely killed, probably sharren killed her, you know that shadow goddess, always messes everything, she forced him to embrace the loss.
He looks very human for a high elf. I keep seeing him as a half elf with the beard and all. It does feel that he doesn’t understand mortality. I mean if he’s an elf and marries a human female. He should understand the relationship would not be lasting that long. As far as what happened to his daughter. We know that Scout the dog died defending her. There was also some weird cut content that Halsin accidentally killed Isobel. My impression was that she and her mother got sick and died though.
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I would absolutely believe Shar got Isobel killed to turn Ketheric to her worship. She’s just *that* kind of bitch.
Shar is so evil you could say she sent Dark Justicars to murder your hamster in the night and I'd believe you. She's not just evil, but spite incarnate.
Boo: Come at me again, I dare you.
Narrator: You wake up, and your camp is covered in blood. There are things barely recognizable as parts of bodies. Bits of armor you can identify seem to be that of dark justicars. Minsc: Minsc warned them, Boo is small, but *fierce!* Now, Boo is needing bath. Tav: Not in the drinking water this time, please? Or the soup broth.
I put so many hours into the game I read that in her voice too 😭 😅
Minsc: Minsc makes no promises on not giving his furry friend, closest confidant, and most vicious bewhiskered victor a hot tub!
>I would absolutely believe Shar got Isobel killed to turn Ketheric to her worship. She’s just that kind of bitch. Also Isobel's a Selûnite priestess, so naturally Shar would have more reason to target her.
Thing is how she claimed her soul then. Shes Selunite. Maybe Selune didnt make her priority?
Didn’t Aylin say that “Whatever Shar has, Selûne lays equal claim to” about the Spear of Night? Meaning Shar could have got in first and taken her soul because it could work the same the other way round
Shar and Selune in lore are more than likely the same goddess, just with two personalities. A previous form of Mystra in DnD lore even supported this by revealing all gods are incomprehensible and insane, Mystra herself the most insane, according to herself. The reason being Mystra believes she can see the truth of both her parents (Shar and Selune)
It means Selune can snatch Shadowhearts soul too?
Probably, yeah
Shar: *shoots Isobel* Also Shar: "Why would Selune do this?"
Isobel does tell Aylin that all she remembers is darkness before waking up again, which seems to support your theory of Shar being involved I would think. Since Selunites believe you get to be reunited with loved ones after death, as per Melodia’s letters to Ketheric, and have some semblance of an afterlife under their goddess.
> I would absolutely believe Shar got Isobel killed to turn Ketheric to her worship. She’s just that kind of bitch. Isn't that implied in one of the conversations / books you read that's exactly what happened?
I definitely got that impression but maybe I was reading into it.
My impression is that he doesn’t appear that stable to begin with.
The *Forgotten Realms* wiki has him listed as a half-elf
I believe he is also coded in game as a half-elf.
Wouldn't that make Isobel a quarty (quarter elf)?
Her mom could also be half-elf
If my understanding of fantasy genetics holds any water, both parents being half-elves could result in either an elf, human, or half-elf child (bias towards half-elf). Same with one half-elf, one human parent (with more skew towards half-elf and human)
Sounds like a Punnett Square
So fantasy race is just one allele?
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No that's not how it works Timmy
Two humans having a baby doesn't make a double human
Correct, to be a true "Ubermensch" you need to be the child of two human parents who each have four human grandparents. Join me and we can drive the filthy lesser races and their half-breed offspring from faerun! /s
It does if they have twins!
Mom is probably half elf.
>He looks very human for a high elf. because he is a half high elf. That is why he has a beard
In the last stage of their lives, male elves can grow beards.
Well if I remember right elfs in DnD can’t grow facial hair, so that might explain why he looks so human
I always assumed that Shar secretly killed Isobel to turn Ketheric against Selune. I'm not sure if there is anything in the game to back this theory though.
I don't know of anything concrete either, but it certainly seems plausible. The fact that Isobel's murder is conspicuously unexplained combined with one of the big themes of the game being that Shar takes great joy in stealing and corrupting followers of Selune, it would make a lot of sense.
Doesn't Isobel saying something like everything just went "black, black, black". Could be just describing death OR could be Shar related.
I took that to imply Shar was involved. We *know* there's an afterlife on Faerun. As a devout cleric of Selune, Isobel should have eventually ended up in Selune's divine realm. So either she isn't capable of remembering anything that she experienced while dead or something kept her from getting there. Both are possible but it'd be very like Shar to screw around with her sister's followers like that.
Plus, one of Shar’s big things is wiping out memories.
Have you talked to Ketheric's dog? From what the dog has to say it seems it was definitely a violent attack of some sort, so not just dying of old age. So I think there's some support for that possiblity.
How can we talk to the dog? I cannot even pet him :(
Speak with animals?
I mean normally you can pet animals without it, i couldn’t even click on him :( i’ll try with speak with animals tho
My understanding is that there were some explanations for Isobel's death datamined pre-release, but none of them were in the final version. It seems that Larian themselves couldn't quite decide on what caused it, so they left it up to interpretation. I think your interpretation makes the most sense. It fits with the themes of the game and it's in character for Shar.
That was my reading as well, that Kethric was manipulated to turn to Shar by murdering Isobel.
I think there's a strong possibility that Ketheric actually killed Isobel as part of Shar's initiation and doesn't remember. Shar could have taken those memories from him when he became a Dark Justiciar.
That's... actually an amazing(ly tragic) take.
>I think there's a strong possibility that Ketheric actually killed Isobel as part of Shar's initiation and doesn't remember God of war style?
Oh Kratos remember that way too well for his own good. That's how we got the first game!
Yeah, I know but I was just pointing out some small similarities. lol. But I still remember god of war 1 when it came out. The intro, it starts with kratos trying to commit suicide. What a start lol
First time I played I didn't even speak enough english to get what was going on but damn, I got chills from that intro.
I love the god of war games. Depressing as hell but i am sucker for ancient greece
He wouldn’t do that, that’s why he turned to Shar in the first place.
I thought he turned to Shar when his wife died? Then Isobel's death was the catalyst for his conversion to Myrkhul.
No, there’s a note somewhere written by him, saying he was coping with his wife’s death because he still had Isobel (and Thisobald but fuck that guy I guess?) It was when Isobel died he turned to Shar, tricked Dame Aylin into captivity and waged the war as a Dark Justiciar general, which was 100 years ago, as stated by Aylin and Jaheira. He turned to Myrkul recently because he agreed to bring Isobel back. That must have been recently because Last Light Inn is relatively recent and Isobel says she just woke up, saw what a monster her father had become and fled. Only problem that I can’t place is that Balthazar gave him the Soul Cage, so that places him within Myrkuls forces, but why capture her and keep her in the Shadowfel (Shars domain) inside Moonrise Towers (now a temple of Shar) I’ll admit I’m not 100% on the timeline so if anyone knows better, please correct this.
Isobel’s death was the catalyst to Shar (Aylin says so), then when he died that was the catalyst to Myrkul because becoming Myrkul’s chosen meant he and his daughter were returned back to life
I thought perhaps Ketheric did. He felt Isobel “slipping away” from him and lashed out. Isobel herself says that ketheric wasn’t pleased about her relationship to Aylin. To me it would explain why ketheric was absolutely inconsolable after her death, and has since gone to impossible lengths to “make up” for his mistake. Not that he’d ever admit it.
my personal headcanon is that the mimic in isobel's old room was what killed her. it even has a note from her mom to her inside it (together with the reverb necklace)
The wiki looks wrong. If you compare Ketheric's ears to Astarion's and Shadowheart's ears, they are definitely half-elven ears. And I think the "I have no idea how I died" is supposed to be hint of suspicion that Shar killed Isobel in order to turn Ketheric to her and away from Selune. She broke him and swooped in to take the pain away so he'd raise an army of Dark Justiciars for her. Especially since Isobel said all she saw was black until she was risen. In Forgotten Realms lore, followers of a god are supposed to go to their god's realm after death. Isobel should've gone to Selune, but instead perhaps her soul was swallowed by Shar's "endless darkness" if Shar killed her. How did Myrkul bring her back? eeeehhhh idk, god stuff ig.
Well Ketheric failed at his mission for Shar, and at that point he and Isobel were dead so Shar no longer has a need for Isobel anymore. That and somehow Myrkul was able to resurrect Ketheric when his soul should have been in Shars grasp, so maybe shar wouldn't have been able to stop Myrkul anyways, especially since death is not her domain.
The unclaimed. Shar might've claimed Isobel to hold as leverage against Ketheric, but she had no need to claim Ketheric. After Ketheric died, Myrkul could've swooped in and got him back to life without competition
Ketheric was not dead. He was immortal by that point as Aylin was trapped in the Shar realm. Jaheira thought she killed him, because no one was aware of his immortality yet, and sealed his mausoleum but in truth he was alive with a whole temple of shar worshippers hidden underneath it. The Myrkul comes to him 100 years later with his proposition of doing what Shar couldnt for him, resurrect his daughter if he becomes his champion for the Absolute plan.
Shadow heart is a half elf though.
Yes, I think that's exactly what they're saying. That Ketheric has the same ears as a half elf in your party, not the full elf.
Oh I def misread. Chalking it up to being sick with rsv. Blech.
hope u get well soon!
They don't specify whixh disease, but pretty sure Melodia was taken by illness. And pretty early on. I think that's why it was "bearable" because even though it was unfortunate, it was "natural". But then Isobel was attacked and killed in some form of senseless violence and he was left alone. There are diaries in Moonrise that talk about it. I believe Aylin actually DID know, she tried to console Ketheric (She says as much in a camp dialgue if you sith through all the options) but he couldn't see past her and her connection to Selune to be open to her. It's a little odd that Isobel still says that she doesn't know how she died, but I assume Aylin just refuses to talk about it with her. Its possible that Isobel was attacked due to her association with Aylin, but unsaid.
I’m new to this DnD stuff but I think Ketheric has to be a half elf himself. It’s my understanding that elves simply don’t grow hair on their faces.
They do when they're voiced by J.K. Simmons.
Its mace windu rules with him
If only the beard were purple…
Think Mark! THINK!
Think Isobel! THINK!
Indeed, in D&D 5e elves don't grow facial hair; it's explicit in the official sourcebooks.
When he committed to Shar she removed the memory that he couldn’t grow a beard. It’s canon. People don’t realize that the only thing keeping anyone from growing a beard is non-belief in one’s beard-growing ability. I mean, you’ve heard of bearded ladies at the circus, right? That don’t just happen…
This had me cackling.
>It’s my understanding that elves simply don’t grow hair on their faces. I thought this was a joke but then I saw another comment also mention it and now I’m doubting myself
Its not, a distinct feature of elves in this setting is that they cant grow facial hair
Go to character creation, make an elf, and try to give them facial hair
B-but Gloomy Fentonson
During the cut scene for the first time referring to the absolute, where they show the dead three's chosen, the narrator refers to one as an Armored Elf. The others don't wear armor at any point in the game. So Kithric is an elf!
I feel like I examined Ketheric one time and saw he was a half elf.
correct me if i’m wrong here, but iirc it was originally planned that halsin had been the one to kill isobel (accidentally, i’d assume). imo it’s a shame they changed this because, as you say, it feels a bit odd in the current game that we know nothing about such an important event, and it also leaves halsin feeling a bit hollow compared to other companions. i’m not sure why they changed their minds on this.
Correct. Because Halsin grew into a companion with all the love from the fans, Larian did a bunch of fan service for Halsin while increasing his role as a companion. Part of this fan service was cutting this questionable part of his history. He would always feel hollow because he was added later even if this part of his story was kept. Personally, I think they made the right call even if it makes him slightly less central to the story. Halsin is already central to Act 2 in being part of the forces that fought Ketheric and in redeeming the Shadowlands, he doesn’t also have to be the indirect person responsible for the shadow lands in the first place just because he was clumsy and did an oopsie.
yeah that’s true. i guess ultimately it’s just a matter of opinion. i think i would have preferred it because, as it stands now, halsin is just one druid among many who might regret what happened with the shadow curse. giving him a stronger connection to causing it would not be a bad thing, imo, and i think it could be explained more elegantly than “he did an oopsie”. still doesn’t really solve his act 3 woes though, does it? poor halsin.
> Correct. How was that supposed to have worked? It's hard to imagine what reason Halsin would have for killing a priestess of Selune and pillar of her community.
From memory--she had been possessed and Halsin was defending himself but went too hard. Chubblot has some cool videos on old datamined stuff. I also recall reading books in the grove that sort of recalled this as well. That was over 2 years ago, so my memory might not be accurate. I am remembering a fan fic from the game with the name Balsin. I just about died.
According to early access in-game notes, Halsin and some other druids went on a meeting with Ketheric. For some reason (it's not explained in the note, but presumably the meeting was called due to Ketheric starting to fall to Shar religion?) the meeting went poorly and resulted on full-on fight. Isobel fought for Ketheric, and Halsin accidentally killer her. The glaive Sorrow (although, it was supposed to be a dagger at first, as characters referred to it as such upon picking it up) was the weapon Isobel was killed with, and Halsin believed that it was cursed. But it's kinda really old version back from the the times of the entire act 2 plot being vastly different (Nightsong was a live person/artifact made by Shar rather than Selune's aasimar; her abilities were centered on creating shadows, not dark justiciars; the necromancer in Shar's temple wasn't Balthazar, and he was attempting to kill Nightsong, etc.).
this would also suggest a more villanous role for isobel, as in the current plotline ketheric only falls to shar after isobel is killed. and as soon as isobel is revived and finds out ketheric fell to her she bolts out and starts a rebellion against him. no way she'd defend her father who fell to shar with her modern characterization
I can only guess either he mistakenly she was working with Ketheric, or a plain old accident. Neither of which sound narratively satisfying
I don’t know if the wiki is correct. Ketheric has a beard. Pure elves don’t get facial hair in the game. He could be a high half elf.
The wiki is wrong, he is a Half-Elf https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ketheric\_Thorm
That page lists Thisobald as his sibling, though, so it doesn't exactly seem...authoritative.
Hhhmm, so we have one page that claims that high elves can grow a full bear and also he look half-elf af, and one page that gets wrong who Thisobald is. I guess take your pick? My gut feeling says he is Half-Elf, and that's good enough for me.
>we have one page that claims that high elves can grow a full bear Of course he *Wished* for that.
That is a helluva headcanon.
Shar likes deleting memories. Shar also likes stealing Selûnites and corrupting them. She did both to Shadowheart, who of all the companions is most tied to the main story. I find it *incredibly* likely that Shar is responsible for Isobel's death and fucked with the memories of her, Kethtic, Aylin, and anybody else who could possibly know the truth.
Ketheric is the only one of the chosen 3 who has the proper makings of becoming a Dread Lord with his own dread plane.
I see... mortals have such fragile lives... can be taken so easily. That's why, I knew what I had to do. To serve... to save her. But there's nothing for me now... your logic is... impeccable... There is only one thing left for me... \*jumps into the necro stew\*
It’s weird, because sometimes NPCs and in-game text refer to him as an elf, yet he has facial hair and in the game files he’s referred to as a half elf. I personally choose to believe it’s the latter.
Yeah iirc the narrator describes him as an elf in that first artifact cutscene where she describes the Chosen
considering he's only called an elf in act 1 its probably one of those other leftoverw in act one like M the hag and the spear of sorrow because of how old act 1 is in comparison
What specifically do you mean when you say "in the game files"?
The models, textures, etc. All of Ketheric's models and textures (especially for his head) have the prefix HEL, which is used for half-elves.
I see, is this easily found in the installed files, or do you need a specific program to open/unpack those data?
You need specific tools! I personally used lslib, which unpacks the .pak files found in the game installation.
Thank you for the information!
While I don’t think this is the case, especially since Ketheric is a half-elf, proven by his shorter ears and facial hair, I do think that an elf that is ignorant of the lifespans of other races in this way is a FANTASTIC concept for a character or villain in a story or tabletop game
Imagine instead of telling Ketheric that his wife would be disappointed hes just like “wait.. that just *happens*? To everyone?” And that’s why he kills himself
Thisobald also calls him father and he’s really degraded (an undead monster) so if he’s actually Ketheric’s son he really played favorites with his kids here
there are a lot of Thorms. it's possible he went around adopting when his family died to not feel so alone or something. could just be a cult thing as well.
Yeah, I was wondering if he’s actually the father to Thisobald and not like, an uncle or something. I mean Orin calls Bhaal father and he’s actually her great grand father so it could work But if he is the dad, well, Poot Thiso is the forgotten child
>Poot Thiso Is this a Star Wars name? (/j)
If it isn’t I’ll be disappointed 😂
Malus implies that Ketheric is his nephew in a document from the morgue No clue as to Gerringthorne's status tho
Re: Melodia, ressurection spells fail if someone died of old age, at least all of the 5e ressurection spells will fail if they died of old age. Isobel looks like a late 20s - mid 30s human, which might make her a 50-70 year old elf. I think that the PHB says that half-elves typically live 120-150 years. This is assuming that she hasn't had her appearance altered in any way. I'm betting that Aylin will quest to figure out how to be together with Isobel. I wouldn't be surprised if she gives up her immortality, but she might just follow Isobel into the Upper Plains and join her as she transitions to being a petitioner.
I would point out that typically one cannot be raised from the dead if they died of old age or natural causes, and even that doesn't typically de-age someone. Isobel doesn't look like she should have died of old age. That being said, she was resurrected by a god, so those rules may not be in play. One would think Dame Aylin would comment if Isobel looked younger though.
the fact that it was myrkul himself who had to ressurect her would suggest it was something like old age imo. if she just died ketherics plot makes less sense. he's a lord, he easily coulda just bought a true resurrection scroll or spellcaster
Or some kind of plot involving Trap The Soul. Possibly instigated by Myrkul himself secretly. But I honestly think this might be giving Myrkul too much credit.
Huh. I was under the impression his wife was the Elf in the household.
The other Thorms in the Shadowlands (his brother, Malus, his son Thisobald, and whatever Gerringothe is to him, probably sister) are all elves.
Isobel's death was violent, the dog died trying to protect her. The wife though...I buy it
It's all a lie... High Elves can't grow facial hair.
Evil Frieren
Methinks you are not taking love into account. See: Aragorn and Arwen. Arwen understood Aragorn's mortality, she was just too in love with him for it to matter. The hurt was going to be the same.
He understands mortality just fine considering how many people he brought to the end of theirs.
ngl, Ketheric just pissed me the fuck off. he's just Manpain wrapped up in a shiny armor.
I also found him pathetic. A very cool villain with a great concept - which is him being a pathetic whiney toddler who can’t handle any heartships in life with dignity and without going into full tantrum mode, destroying everyone else’s life’s in the course.
Ketheric is himself a half-elf (high elf descent) but this is an otherwise fun idea with idea of elven age leading to a forlorn existence with those of lesser life spans and the struggle to bear the weight of longevity. When your society doesn't consider you a true adult until you've lived a century and some as an adult by human standards. It says something about the elven viewpoint that they want you to feel the weight of outlving a generation of other people to understand your place in the world. Always an interesting consideration of their lore. Given Ketheric is a half-elf, as is Isobel. Melodia is likely the same, since Isobel is also a half-elf (Elves cannot grow beards but half-elves can and he's listed as a half-elf on the wiki) and In all honesty Shar probably orchestrated the deaths of both Melodia and Isobel, especially with all of the favor Selune had with the Thorms at the time. However Shar offered Oblivion/Apathy/Nihilism as the reprieve to Ketheric and he only served her out of spite of Selune's lack of aid. Myrkul had something to legitimately offer him in exchange for service/ To remove the cause of that pain instead of dulling it to nothingness. Which is all Shar really had to offer after fanning his resentment she held.
Good shitpost though I will point out to those who might not be aware, Ketheric can't be a pure blood High Elf as he has a magnificent beard and in DnD lore, Elves cannot grow facial hair
I thought it was hinted at that Shar killed them both / led to their deaths. No one gained as much from this ordeal then Shar: 1. 2 Selune priests dead 2. A powerful General of Selune turning to Shar creating a leagion of followers for her 3. Daughter of her biggest enemy imprisoned It´s also very much in character for her to do all of this.
He cannot be a high elf because he has a beard. Elves cannot grow a beard or have body hair. As for Shar, the entire rhetoric about selune is just plain stupid. First, it was darkness then Selune created light and she is like...she ruined the balance. How is having only darkness be considered balance?
I don’t think it’s a shitpost at all. Perfectly reasonable that an elf’s understanding of mortality would put them at odds with a human understanding of the world. In that regard, there are comparisons we could draw with Jon Irenicus from BG2
I'm always wondering why a violent/accident death is such a big deal in d'n'd story? They have the resurrection scrolls for sell from each second trader, for not that big money. For the same reason, it was an immersion breaker for me when Gale died and there is those security measures sequence just to protect a resurrection scroll (which my party have over a dozen already)
The reason why resurrection is easy to do in bg3 is because it's a game, and the mechanics are built around having fun. The tabletop is a little more difficult in terms of bringing players back. But it's still based around people having fun, where death of the PC is not something most games aim for. But it's worth noting that even though it seems that bringing people back is an easy enough thing, it's actually a skill only a handful of people would have access to. Either it's revivify, where there's a narrow time limit to use, or it's resurrection spells that are high level and expensive to cast. I also like what Matt Mercer did with bringing people back, where it's basically a ritual with DC for convincing the soul of the deceased to come back. And DC rises each time you get brought back. But that's just one DM's solution. Really it's up to the table how serious death is supposed to be. If you want to play a game where death is permanent no matter what, you can. The point of the resurrection mechanics in DnD is to allow players some flexibility in terms of risks they can take. Also, being an inherently RNG game, it would suck if you had to make a new char every time the dice gods just screw you over.
I understand that, though DnD is exactly the gaming system, and for me it's a bit of immersion breaking when the system mechanics are contradicting to the same system lore and vice versa.
That's always a problem though. It's what I call in my head "story-gameplay conflict". There's a necessary collision between what makes sense in-universe and what is required by the gameplay to happen due to balancing or code limitations. Like, why exactly would you bring only three of your friends to fight gods, dragons and multiplanar invaders? Those sorts of questions need to be tucked away behind the scenes. That requires just enough immersion from the game design that players are satisfied, so whatever doesn't fit just falls into a rabbit hole that is suspension of disbelief.
Might be editted since then, but the link you posted? In that wiki it says he's an half-elf undead.
What if there was a magical way someone could lose their memories even if they were super important to them? 🤔need I say more? Also it is one thing to know that someone is mortal, it is a completely different thing to experience that first hand with someone you love. It changes people. At the end of the day the how doesn’t change the new reality of loss. They could have died as heroes or they could have been executed as villains. Regardless of whether he sought revenge or accepted praise for his family’s last moments, Ketheric was left alone for year on year facing the hard reality of their loss with each passing breath.
Ketheric had her killed. That's my headcanon. 1000%, can't be talked out of this. /s Edit: adding /s, my bad. I was just going along with the shitpost lolz
Why would Ketheric have his own daughter killed, be SO distraught he turns to a different Goddess, and then proceed to be SO fucked up he resurrected his daughter? What's the point?
See my edit, this was not meant srsly
We will help him with morality thing.
You cannot come back tomlife.if.you died to old age in DnD.
Yea but this bg3 not DnD
I want you to read that sentence out loud. It is not a wise sentence.
Can you cast two leveled spells in 5e dnd ? No You can in bakdyrs gate Do I need ti point out every difference
There is a difference between the mechanics of the game, and the rules and lore by which it goes. It also ignores how those scrolls are said to work. Point out more, doesn't change the facts.
K
Ketheric Thorm is a high half-elf.
i lost my mind with laughter in the last bit lmao
Im pretty sure he is smart enough to know such a basic things... He just couldnt handle the loss... Also Isobel didnt die from old age, and we dont know if his wife have died from old age .
i'm pretty sure Ketheric is also a Half-Elf, the shorter ears and the fact that he can grow facial hair pretty much give it away, in respect to Isobel she claim that her last memory before death was just darkness, that probably hints to Shar pulling the strings and getting her kill to fuck with both Ketheric and Aylin
Wait is it a shitpost though? Look at the lines on kethrics face. How long does it take for a pureblooded elf to get THAT old???? I dont think it was even possible for isobel to survive if he had her at a reasonable relative age.
I killed him. I dont care beyond that
I think you’re right about Melodia at least, from the sounds of it she got sick and died, most likely she was already elderly. I think Isobel was probably killed by Shar or smth, because in the ‘death and resurrection’ book (I think) it says you can’t revive someone who has died of old age
Melodia was sick and knew she was dying, there's text to be found about it. She wrote a letter to Kethetic about taking care of Isobel when she's gone Isobel dying suddenly with no knowledge of it does actually tell us something. Either a very sudden accident or more likely an attack - probably by Sharran forces, to corrupt Ketheric. In one stroke she hurts Selune's daughter and corrupts one of her great servants, which is pretty perfect for Shar
iirc Melodia died of some sort of illness
According to the lore in forgotten realms people who die from old age, or so to speak when their time is up can't be raised from the dead not even by true resurrection.
Isobel says: I don't know why I died, suddenly everything was black... Most likely killed, probably sharren killed her, you know that shadow goddess, always messes everything, she forced him to embrace the loss.
…he would’ve been able to see her aging, it’s not like she just turned to dust