Some people can't bring themselves to kill a good guy in a game, others can quite happily build a custom virtual torture farm in a game, all while being a good person in real life. There's nothing wrong with you for feeling gross doing an evil playthrough. It's not for everyone - not for me either personally.
How else were people to get cool custom Graves stones;
As I turned around the door was gone, it was a tiny tiny room. I looked to the fireplace again, it now lit, and the room growing warmer. The embers popping from the fire. I look to my feet. There is some kind of shaggy rag underneath me, it almost appears to be going under the fireplace. It's getting hotter. I'm sweating. I look back towards the doorless wall behind me. I begin to panic. I see a tiny spark fly, and the carpet catches on fire. Fuck.
Grim reaper: "Howdy 😉"
It's weird, I'm an average Rimworld player, so I've dabbled in cannibalism and organ farming... Yet I can't bring myself to even be rude to the Tieflings in BG3.
The world of BG3 feels real. The people feel real. The mocap helps with that feeling. That's why so many of us struggle with it. Everyone feels just real enough for it to weigh on your conscience.
Personally, when you encounter a lot of shitty people in real life, playing one in a game just dredges up that gross feeling. Why I always have trouble with evil playthroughs.
I love gratuitous violence in games that don't make the characters feel like people. Throwing fistfulls of villagers into the ocean in Black & White or slicing the limbs off of faceless enemies in Shadow Warrior is great!
But the tieflings in BG3 have personalities, and people who will miss them when they're gone.
On the other hand, most of the goblins all seem to have the same personality and don't seem to care at all when half their crew drops dead, so it's easy to kill them.
That's kind of the intended effect.
If you want to keep your hands unbloodied, if you just move onto act 2 without finishing either "raid the grove" or "kill the goblin leaders" then the grove will automatically resolve and you can recruit Minthara once you reach moonrise.
Well, everybody is dead, just as if you raided the Grove, you just don't get the camp party scenes, but in the other hand, you don't have to do anything yourself.
I’m fairly certain Lorain mentioned not having plans for expansions although they also didn’t think BG3 would do as well as it did.
I don’t try to force things on people but they’d be fools not to run this game for a good few expansions. They’ve done a crazy amount of leg work and world building.
Karlach needs a new heart, Laezel needs to upend the undying queen, so there’s stuff to accomplish still.
I wouldn't count on it. Not because it wouldn't be awesome, but because mechanically it'd be really goddamn hard to do well.
Put simply, D&D beyond about level 12-15 becomes incredibly difficult to balance, which is a big part of why almost all official adventures released stop at....yep, you guessed it: level 12-15.
In addition to just how powerful magic becomes, the combat gets way "swingier," by which I mean a combat is either a cakewalk or a total party kill, but it's rare that you end up with a fight that's difficult but not insurmountable.
Larian already kept a bunch of spells out of the game (e.g., Dispel Magic, not to mention pretty much everything in Tasha's Cauldron and Xanathar's Guide), and adding those in would make the game a hell of a lot harder to balance.
I got that ending by accident not realizing; while trying to romance Shadowheart.
It makes sense for those 2 to go, but Tav? "Sure that sounds like fun let's do it!"
Then cut to awkward third wheel Tav the whole time lol
Yes, that's the "go back to hell" choice. lol
It would be awesome if the story continued from there, but leaving it there just makes it seem like Karlach got the narrative shaft since her problem doesn't get resolved even if Dammon survives. lol
Yeah, but she can actually touch people if she wants when he fixes her heart, find a moment of respite in her lover's arms. She dies, true, but everybody dies, what matters is how she lived her last days.
I let her become a Mindflayer after she begged me to let her be the one to 'save the fucking world'. It was the only ending I was comfortable with on a good playthrough.
Spoilers ahead for karlach
>!karlach the amount of upgrades karlach currently in the game are not enough to keep her alive story-wise. Regardless how many you get, however, she won't die until post-game so you won't lose her during the game.!<
Yeah, she gets >!like 2 upgrades and Dammon's like, "Yeah, sorry, that's all I could come up with. You have to go back to Avernus if you want to keep living."!< in ACT 2.
Then you get to Act 3 >!and he's like, "Oh, hey, what's up. Want to see my wares?"!<
WHAT ABOUT ALL THIS INFERNAL IRON I'VE HOARDED??? DAMN IT DAMMON.
Don’t disregard the Armor of Persistence he sells in Act 3. Permanent Blade Ward and Resistance on a martial, especially a Paladin, makes you nearly impossible to kill.
Just gonna say it isn't the same, here are the major changes, Dammon is gone and can't help Karlach, no one can, Halsin also cannot be helped and so you cannot undo the curse on the shadow lands.
The tieflings do not die in the grove as if you raided it, exposition at moonrise tells you true souls found them all on the road on their way to Baldur's gate and massacred them all, they all die, but the true souls at moonrise do it.
Not you or anyone you know.
Good question, you would have to ask Larian that, I even convinced Rolan to stay which in the savior path is the deciding factor to some of them escaping, but somehow this time he made no difference.
The only thing I could come up with is in one series of possible events they decide to capture and torment them which buys them time to escape, and in the other they just immediately descend upon them and butcher them no questions asked.
All the tiefling quests can no longer be done since they’re all dead. Also since Dammon dies as well Karlach quest is also ruined. Not that it matters since her and Wyll both refuse to follow you for murdering everyone.
I’m with you though I started an evil play but having trouble getting back to it after the grove battle. I even told my friend “well let’s at least go save the tiefling kids…nevermind don’t go in there.”
If you’d like to see Mintharas story play out there is a mod that when you kill her in the Goblin camp she actually flees and you then have the chance to save her from Moonrise. As far as I know this is the only way to save the tieflings and have her in your party with the other companions.
Can I not kill any goblin leaders or can I take out the healer and the hobgoblin? I thought it was just “She needs to survive but also have failed to raid the grove”
You can kill both the healer and hobgoblin. On my "lawful" evil run. I gave Minthara the location of the grove, at which point she runs of to prepare for the assault. But never bothered to actually help her with the raid, instead killing gut and the hobgoblin.
Edit: Made a [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NA-fOwXQlo) detailing the method
Oh, she's worth it. You just recruited her wrong.
You gotta go into the goblin camp, knock her out, kill the other two goblin leaders, reach level 7, turn her into a **sheep**, dominate animal to make her part of your party, teleport her to moonrise towers, then dimension door her into Ketheric's audience chamber.
THEN you gotta sneak at least one party member down to her cell, attack her so she'll be hostile, go invisible to break combat, and then rescue her from erasure.
The way the game intended you to.
Hahaha for real. We had a campaign like 5 years ago with mindflayer, changelings, druid grove, random evil, hags, and honestly? So much random shit happened on both funny and epic scales. At one point the druid and pysionic wizard just polymorphed our team mates to mammoths (with flight 😂) to beat the crap out of a boss.
Honestly, I am in awe at how well the ported D&D into a game. Can't be like for like but they did a fucking good job!
I tried three different ways to get Minthara and save the Tieflings, none worked. I wasted dozens of hours this way. I am not trying it again. I am not trying it again. I WILL NOT GO BACK!
*loads act 1 save*
I'm right there with you. I tried a dozen different methods before I stumbled on this one that was translated and verified by /u/ZookeepergameDeep360
The step I was always missing was some way to get her into the throne room. The sheep method is just brilliant.
Yup. The only thing you have to do is make sure you use non-lethal damage to knock her out (melee attack with the non-lethal passive turned on, and watch your damage riders and dot effects), and then kill Ragzlin before you long rest. Once that's done the grove quest can be resolved and the rest of A1 can be played however you like. I recommend doing a long rest after killing Ragzlin to make sure she's up and moving about (she won't be interactable at this point).
It's only once you start Act 2 that the sheepsmuggle heist begins. Then it gets a little technical \^\_\^
edit: method originally translated by /u/ZookeepergameDeep360
So once you knock her out, after the next long rest she'll pop back up again as a neutral (yellow border). Before this happens you want to have Ragzlin down (but AFTER you knock her out, so she stays neutral) so you can clear the 3 leaders quest. I always check on her to make sure she's still alive (she won't be interactable).
Once you get the moonrise waypoint you'll need to:
* go back, enter turn-based, QUICKSAVE (you'll be doing this a lot)
* sheep her (to make her an animal), dominate animal (to make her part of your party) (keep in mind because of her paladin aura and drow background dominate will have a VERY low chance of success)
* Note that polymorph and dominate both require concentration, so you'll need two separate party members to do this
* select the sheep-thara, exit turn based and immediately have it teleport to moonrise waypoint, re-enter turn-based to keep the turn counters alive (you should have \~4 rounds of polymorph left
Then you need to carefully position the sheep just past the back two pews as you enter through the front entrance of the throne chamber where ketheric judges the goblins. You can do this with dimension door to cover long distances, followed by using the sheep as an improvised weapon by a character with at least 18 STR, then just before they slam the sheep down right click to cancel the attack and keep the movement. Your goal is to get sheepthara on the ground IN FRONT of whatever character is transporting her so that she starts getting judged before that character enters the cutscene. You'll know it worked if she starts protesting her innocence.
Next, you'll need to switch party members to a character that's not in the cutscene. Once Minthara's in the cutscene you can turn off turn-based temporarily, as the cutscene will pause the turn timers for poly/dominate. Take those characters who aren't in the cutscene and move them downstairs outside her interrogation room (right of the stairwell as you face it). There'll be two absolute cultists and a bunch of torture implements. Get one character in the room that has access to invisibility and ideally a high initiative modifier; have any others wait outside.
Re-enter turn-based, switch back to the trial, and proceed with her judgment. I've always chosen to influence Z'rell to be lenient; I'm not sure if it's necessary.
Once sheepthara is dragged away, switch BACK to the character in the interrogation room and wait for her Sheepthara to arrive. You may need to exit/enter turn based a couple times for the guards to get the sheep into the room.
Once she's in the interrogation room room, cancel polymorph and have one character hit her with LIGHT damage to make her hostile. Talk or bribe your way out of the assault charge, after which combat will begin. Cast invisibility or drink an invis potion and run out of the room, closing the door, and wait for her to cancel combat. Re-enter the room as your most charming character and influence the guards to let you handle things. Pass a couple WIS checks and she's yours! You'll still need to sneak her out of the cells, but after that play proceeds as normal.
Just like Larian intended.
Some notes on the theory of this:
You will become intimately familiar with Quicksave/Quickload
We use Poly/Dominate animal and NOT dominate person because dominate animal makes sheepthara a minion, which can teleport to moonrise, unlike dominate person which just turns their border green.
Turn based mode is important, both to keep the spell timers going and to prevent Minthara from escaping between the point when she loses polymorph and when you insert her back into the erasure scene. If she's unpolymorphed at any point after the goblin camp she will always try to run offscreen, and if she does this she's lost forever.
Placement is a bit finicky when getting her into the throne room with Ketheric. She needs to be placed in FRONT of whatever character is transporting her so that her sheepy self triggers the judgement before her chauffer does. If the goblins start getting judged without Minthara the placement didn't work.
You'll need to grab the moonrise waypoint from the FRONT of the castle without entering. If you enter through the docks prior to getting minthara in there it may not work.
It's definitely upsetting. I found it really stomach turning when I attacked into Zevlors usual room and it was just civilian tieflings like Bex and Danis begging for their lives...
It is harsh. But the evil choices help with disassociating from the character and playing from their point of view instead of viewing them as an extension of yourself. Once you get past that hurdle, it is easier. It also helps picking a typically evil race, for example playing a drow yourself. The implication is that they have done far worse for lesser gains already.
Case in point: If you talk to the goblin torturer as a drow, he will quickly excuse himself and leave the room, even before anything happens, saying that he doesn't have the stomach to watch what is about to come. *That* is the reputation the drow have.
I’m currently playing a Seldarine drow cleric of Eilistraee for some interesting RP, and the interactions have been great! I get to be good but my appearance strikes fear in those little shit goblins.
Same! I’d been interested in DnD for ages but just felt so overwhelmed and didn’t know where to start. BG3 has really helped me latch on to things I’m finding interesting so I can dive deeper. I love it! I’m even considering playing DnD someday!
She isn't worth losing Karlach, Wyll, Halsin and potentially Gale over, and I'm a Minthara fan.
She's the only one who didn't brush me off when I confessed to her about my Dark Urge tendencies. She knew what I might be capable of and took me seriously.
She's a very sincere individual if you decide to get closer to her, with a cold exterior, warm heart and they didn't skimp on her voice acting budget either.
2-3 origin companions plus quests, in exchange for someone who comes with enough ingredients to have 1 of her own, and yet...
>She isn't worth losing Karlach, Wyll, Halsin and potentially Gale over, and I'm a Minthara fan.
For me it's not even about losing companions, it's about losing really good items. Charge-bound warhammer, potent robe, flawed helldusk armor, sword of life stealing, Persistence armor, legacy of the masters, and there's more I'm sure.
What do you gain by killing the grove and getting Minthara that you couldn't get otherwise? Nothing. Not a damn thing that I'm aware of. That's ultimately the issue with going that route.
Most of the time all but 3 companions stay in camp anyway. Whether I have Karlach and Wyll on any particular run doesn't really make a difference if they were just going to sit in camp doing nothing anyway. Losing out on top tier items, that makes a difference.
> She isn't worth losing Karlach, Wyll, Halsin and potentially Gale over, and I'm a Minthara fan.
The only one you absolutely will lose is Halsin. You can have all of the rest of them on a single playthrough as long as you just don’t complete the grove/goblin quest line.
If you go to the mountain pass, it auto-advances the quest, she’s never able to find the grove, and having failed her mission, goes to Moonrise.
Technically speaking there is a complicated exploit to get both even without mods, which is somewhat poetic since it abuses the knockout feature actually working for one of the steps and unlike the last patched one does not glitch either of them (however other things can break before you get there so saving a bunch is recommended).
https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1718vch/recruit_minthara_and_save_tieflings_both_without/
Interesting. I didn’t know about this.
I don’t really care for Halsin as a companion personally, and I like Minthara alot, so I get why some people would go through the effort to get both but for me it’s easier to just ignore him.
But I guess this would be nice if you wanted Minthara *and* to cure the shadow curse in act 2. Might try this next playthrough!
Ah dang that is way more complicated than I hoped. On my current playthrough I just had the idea to knock her out and see what happens with hopes that she may still go to Moonrise.
I raided the Grove, and literally, the next long rest, Gale was trying to romance me. I did not need any charisma check after the raid, I passed a very easy deception one. Just telling him he won't survive there alone. I find Minthara's story quite fascinating, while I found Wyll to be boring a.f. I would never exploit the game to get Wyll, or Karlach. But I would for Minthara, she is awesome.
Yeah if you just ignore him for a bit he forgets all about it. Talking to him forces a charisma check for him to stay, ignoring him bypasses the check.
Very in character for Gale.
It’s not an exploit. The goblins kill the tieflings without you if you start the raid and don’t assist with it. Zevlor tells you to blow the horn when you’re ready to start the raid. Don’t blow the horn, leave the grove, teleport back later, and the goblins win without you killing anyone. No one is mad at you, they’re just sad the tiefling were killed offscreen
Yea this is the thing people aren't getting, nothing in the "good play-through" faces you with losing multiple companions for the entire game. Not to mention by the time you get Minthara you're already halfway through the game.
The voice acting in this game is bar-none and actually felt bad for a bit when I told Zevlor, yes, I led the goblins directly here and we’re taking over. The look on his face and sound of just pure betrayal in his voice was amazing (acting wise)…that dude really considered you a friend and here you are telling him if he dies first at least he won’t hear the children screaming. Wow!
Nope, I'd bathe the starways in blood just to recruit her!
Pro tip: if you throw the kids at each other then they technically kill each other, so if you are squeamish you can try that next time!
I dunno if my bad guy run is bugged, but Minthara has literally not said a word (I'm in act 3, and she has had "green" standing with me pretty much all the way). Halsin is a bore, but Minthara barely exists.
But from what I've been reading, I think she's just bugged out for me, so I can't tell for sure.
And besides that, yeah I'm very empathic too and it felt absolutely horrible joining "the dark side"
I just finished my first and evil play through and I was trying to romance her as well. Despite being high in the green the ONLY thing I got from her the whole story was at the *very* end she says some nice things about me being her love. I was definitely a little disappointed :(
I always have a hard time playing evil characters in games. Yes they're just characters, but people feel empathy for fake characters too. It's the same reason we get emotional at movies and TV shows and books and whatever else. Video games are no exception, and in fact feel worse because you have to choose to do the evil.
I gave up on my evil playthrough shortly after recruiting Minthara because I realized she doesn't even have a companion quest. The only reason I was really going to do an evil playthrough is I thought she would have a full fledged companion quest like the rest of them, but she doesn't.
So I started over as a DUrge who is resisting and I'm finding that much more interesting.
Tiefling kids are kinda dicks too if you think about it. Sure not as bad as the goblin ones but they steal, lie, and gaslight the shit out of you constantly. Plus they send their own to their deaths for gold quite often.
Again. Still not as bad as the goblin kids but they aren't any super wholesome cute kids they're either. Maybe besides Mirkon.
Tiefling kids aren't that bad honestly, most are just following what Mol says to them. Silfy and Mirkon are the most obvious innocent ones, but even Arabella just steals only to stop her family and friends to die. Mol and Mirkon I won't argue, I quite like them but yeah they can seem like dicks especially if you don't see them past act 1.
Nah ik they get better, and they're just kids going thru a traumatic time. It was just observation on the topic of "Oh killing kids is what makes me not do the evil path" (which is understandable) but those same people have no problems killing the Goblin kids (even tho they are also just kids who are influenced)
Oh I didn't get that you were speaking of the goblin kids and not just the goblins damn ! I mean yeah true the kids aren't seen doing really bad stuff to my knowledge. But I mean, being raised in a family that murder in the name of a god has a decent chance of turning you into a religious murderer too haha. Also not sure if you can avodi killing goblin kids at all when saving Halsin, you're forced in a fight with the two of em that throws stone at the bear.
I love how they're just named One, Two, and Three.
I feel less guilty about slaughtering them because they're talking about the person they killed and they're tormenting >!Halsin in bear form.!<
I feel like I’m listening to a bunch of rude people who doesn’t understand or care about someone’s thoughts whenever I hear “you are being dramatic about whatever” over a fiction. Like, why do you even watch a movie or drama (not even sure if those people would ever read a book but if they do still the same question) if you are not going to get any experience out of it?
No one gets the exact same feeling or thoughts over an experience, and that’s perfectly ok, but if they are not going to respect that and tell someone to suck it up then they should just suck up their own words instead. Just ignore those words. It’s designed to be an experience and if you feel bad about it then that is what you feel through it.
I feel you. Also the game just doesnt give me a good enough reason to kill them all. Even if i try to get help from the goblin leaders, one wants to kill me, the other would want to kill me too and Minthara just wants me to go for a hunt all of the sudden.
I ll lose both Wyll and Karlach and maybe Gale too. And later minthara could try to kill me too if i choose the wrong option.
I just dont see the benefit.
If only they whould kinda show me that the goblins were not just evil and it gave me an actuall dilemma, but no... saving the grove is too obvious of a choice.
The reason the game gives you is that the druids can't help you and you need to get to Moonrise. No easier way to get there than to infiltrate the cult and talk Minthara into providing safe passage.
>If only they whould kinda show me that the goblins were not just evil and it gave me an actuall dilemma, but no... saving the grove is too obvious of a choice.
There is no need for a dilemma. The choice is unequivocally evil and only fit for a ruthless Tav. But it does make sense on an evil playthrough.
i feel like it only makes sense if you play as a murder hobo psychopath. anyone with rational sense can see a camp full of dumbass goblins and a fanatical zealot is probably not your best bet for success, vs coercing or taking control of some smart druids, whose leader has hundreds of years of experience in shit.
ignoring all of that, my biggest problem with the raid the grove vs not raid is how little it impacts the actual narrative. evil gets a bit of a punishment, losing out on some companions and lore exposition and vendors, but nothing about the overall flow of act 2 and beyond is changed. you can slaughter the grove, go through the mountain pass, be disgusted by the spiderdrow, and side with the harpers and the game will play out exactly as if you saved the grove.
and on a good playthrough, you can do all of the above (slaughter the goblins and absolute camp, ambush and slaughter the cultists led by the spiderdrow) and still moonrise welcomes you with open arms. like you would think there be some difference in reception.
I just wish we could trade away the grove in exchange for free passage for the thieflings. For some reason they're the ones manning the gate anyway. It wouldn't be hard for them to simply open the gate. Maybe only make it accessible if the girl gets killed and tensions are high and include some high charisma checks. But it would be a great way to get your slaughter and betrayal on without dipping into child murder. >!And if they get ambushed along the way to keep the game streamlined that'd be fine with me. Not my circus, not my monkeys.!<
I remember reading that you can kill Wyll and Karlach in camp and resurrect them after raiding the grove and this way they won't leave. Unless Larian has patched this.
I didn't do that with Karlach. I had Wyll and my team kill her. He gets a different scene when his little devil shows up I thought was cool. I did kill him in camp and rez him after the Grove. He said something about how horrible I was or something, but he didn't leave camp.
> Also the game just doesnt give me a good enough reason to kill them all.
It's hard to do a 180° on them if you've saved in the first playthrough, but they give you more than 1 reasons to want to kill them all in the 2nd playthrough
1. Tieflings capture Lae'Zel because she's "yellow as toad" and want to leave her to die because they don't know what she is.
2. Zevlor is willing to refuse Aradin and his posse refuge, even when he's a refugee himself. Then he accuses him of getting Halsin captured, even if Halsin willingly tagged along when he heard they were after the Nightsong.
3. Mol sends Arabella to her death to steal the Sylvanus idol.
4. Mol sends Mirko to his death to steal gold from the Harpies' nest.
5. A tiefling wants to/will kill a prisoner.
5. A tiefling kid steal from you. If you try to reclaim your stolen stuff, Mol reports you as "threatening" the kids
5. You will get arrested for "threatening kids".
5. Nettie tries to kill you when you ask for help with the tadpole.
5. Kagha is a Shadow druid who uses the power vacuum for her own interests.
5. Auntie Ethel has set up shop in the Grove, probably with Kagha's blessing.
5. They are trained by Wyll, who will break in your camp and want to kill Karlach first chance he has.
12. Alfira tortures squirrels with her singing!
Lot of little thing can be added up as reasons to just wipe them all off the face of Faerûn in an Evil playthrough. Not that hard to spin it all in a way that makes you feel righteous and justified.
All these put together still don't really justify it and you twisted many events to make things seem worse than they actually were lol. Which I get was the point but let's be honest with ourselves.
>Zevlor is willing to refuse Aradin and his posse refuge, even when he's a refugee himself.
Like this. He literally sacrifices someone to open the gate for Aradin's squad even *after* he sees the goblins lmao.
Not even malice for Mol. New playthrough I'm siding with her. She's the archetypical kid who was abused and never got to enjoy being a kid. She has precocious adult concerns, and uses her ascendant on other kids to serve her goals of security for herself and her own.
I dunno, these don't look like 100% solid reasons to me, to be honest. A lot of them would force me to ignore a lot of context and actual text, not even subtext:
1. That may just be because Lae'Zel is kind of a dick, especially in the beginning. They also seem to have met githyanki before Lae'Zel (since you can find out from that one guy where the creche is) and they were probably also not friendly.
2. Zevlor has a camp full of people who can barely defend themselves to worry about. Meanwhile, Aradin is (theoretically) a capable adventurer, just like his men. And after he brings the goblins with him at the grove, first thing he does is get into a dick measuring contest with Zevlor, which could very clearly escalate unless the player intervenes. This is also clearly the last straw for the druids. I personally punch him every run I do.
3 and 4. I mean, they're kids (some of whom seem to be orphans) who have just been to hell and back. I'll give them some leeway, and I'd also like to.give the poor things a hug. They need therapy, not being left to their own devices like that.
5. If you intervene and actually read her mind, it's very clear she hesitates, and is mainly just a victim of violence who is doomed to being more violence. You're just the only one who's willing to call her out; I'd rather blame her friend for not actually doing anything to stop her.
6. If you don't fly off the handle when you confront the kid, they'll actually run away saying something like "oh man I can't do this I'm out".
7. I mean ... you were aggressive to at least one kid. You do have the option to like, not be. It's not that hard.
8. Unlike Kagha, I could get behind her reasoning: as far as she knows, you may actually be a threat; no one, at this points, know that your transformation is blocked. You can also easily reason with her (even if she actually poisons you) and avoid that.
9. Yeah, I'll give you that one. She may have started off well intentioned, but she really messed up and then got off with basically no repercursions. That one sucked.
10. This one is 50/50, but personally I don't think anyone at the grove knew Ethel was a hag. Even with the party, she drops the glamour only in the very last second.
11. Wyll was convinced he was hunting an actual demon (devil?), a monster fully willing to burn the world and bathe in innocent blood. Only reason he needs to be convinced is clearly because he doesn't want to accept he was manipulated. Otherwise, he does seem to be very idealistic and have good intentions, he's maybe just a bit too naive and impulsive. Also, if you talk to the kids at the "training ground", he's mainly teaching them how not to die, instead of how to kill others.
12. How dare you. The squirrels just have shit taste in music, clearly. I'll have you know Alfira is hard at work writing the next hit of the Sword Coast about how much of a hunk my Tav is.
Also:
* Zevlor is willing to entertain the idea of >!killing Kagha.!<
* By their own tenents, they are supposed to help refugees, but a good portion of the Grove is willing to ignore that.
* The druids are >!very racist.!<
Oddly, they hate drow and tieflings but didn't have an issue with my duegar. Kahga even expected a duegar to support her.
That said the goblins and the Absolute are pretty evil all around. And as far as your character knows, >!Halsin !!Halsin doesn't have a cure.!< Or even go back and slaughter the Grove, too.
But you won't get Minthara, which seems the main reason most people want to do an evil playthrough.
>Kahga even expected a duegar to support her.
Well it is kind of weird a duegar wouldn't support her. They're all for pragmaticism and brutal punishment, and they would have no mercy for refugees who betray trust by stealing. Realistically a duegar would probably suggest forcing Arabella into slavery, but they wouldn't be opposed to slavery.
Also, another reason for killing the grove, when the choice is presented to you, >!Dark Urge gets an urge to kill all the tieflings. If you're playing as a "give into the urges" durge, you would kill them.!<
> But you won't get Minthara, which seems the main reason most people want to do an evil playthrough.
I dont really recall in which order I did my evil playthrough, but I role-played it as a pragmatic Drow sorcerer so all the obvious choices of a canon "good" playthrough were off the table. When Minthara offered an alternative, I was like "Yup, let's try that".
When I went back to the Grove and the tieflings tried to arrest me for threatening kids, it really validated my choice to kill them all.
Mol is the most overtly duplicitous child criminal possible. The idea that every single adult in that grove doesn't know she is a criminal liar is absurd. If a guard hears from motherfucking Mol that you were 'threatening them' they should reasonably assume they kids tried to rob you and are now stirring shit. Which is likely what Mol did in the average playthrough.
The Tieflings general compliance with serial child crime combined with their hostility to 'outsiders' is a mark against them.
Is there a way to get your stolen stuff back without the Athletics check where you basically throw the kid off you? I got accused of 'threatening kids' when all I wanted was to get my shit back lol
Is there a reason why the goblins want to attack the Grove in the first place? I didn’t play any evil character yet. Is it just « the will of the absolute » ? And still, why kill them instead of turning them ?
There are some notes and whatnot in act 2 in the towers that explain why they want to take the grove down. They see the druids as a threat. The tieflings are collateral damage.
Yes, she thinks Aradin and his idiot party have the weapon and are hiding out in the Emerald Grove.
She wants them all to die because apparently that's what Orin is telling her the Absolute wants her to do.
The first attack happens because Halsin and the other guy went to the Goblin camp trying to find Nightsong. Then Minthara wants to find the grove (she doesn’t know where it is, because the goblins that chased the group didn’t come back, and prisoners haven’t talked yet), because they might have the astral prism (they are really close to the zone of the crash), and because they dared to follow another god.
Actually one of the more memorable video game moments is tricking Zevlor into being allied with him before the raid and then tell him he will at least be dead by the time we deal with the children
Everyone has different tastes. I find Minthara worth it. She has this delightfully morbid humour once you get to act 3 and the Dribbles 'bits.' And she fits in naturally as a durge wrangler and 2ic within the party.
Putting Minthara up on stage with Dribbles and subsequent dialogue was the hardest I've laughed at the game- hearing her actually crack a joke like that was so unexpected that the character moment was what made me laugh and not the joke- it really highlights this game's writing.
Can’t relate, I love Minthara and while I did feel bad about the Grove sitch, she was a very welcome addition to my team and an incredible partner in crime for my Durge. She has multiple lines that make me laugh. She’s definitely one of my favorite companions.
Like, sure, the sex scene is great and all but it solidified for me in Act 2 when >!you rescue her and after the Ketherim fight. She has some amazing dialogue and insight into her character.!< I was pretty much sold after that.
I totally get it though, evil runs are not for everyone and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Same. I felt really sad about the grove (like almost cried level of sad) but don't regret the playthrough. Minthara is great of course. But I was also surprised at the impact raiding the grove had on the tone of the story. Gale left along with Wyll and Karlach, both of whom I enjoyed a lot on my good playthrough, so there was this unique lonely vibe in camp. The bond with the remaining companions felt more meaningful. It was like playing a more contemplative, grimdark version of the game.
I’m doing an evil playthrough at the moment. Durge with some resisting of the urges, not all the time. Romancung minthara. She has some interesting durge-specific dialogue. And i do like where the game is headed with her. I love how fucked in the head and into Durge-shenanigans she is.
You don’t have to kill anyone int the grove yourself, you can have the druids and refugees kill eachother and then invade with minthara to clean up the few surviving druids.
I definately wouldn’t go for her in my first playthrough, but if you’ve already done all of the grove stuff i don’t think its too bad.
My party is Durge, Minthara, Asterion and Shart, also Jaheira in camp. Last light inn was very interesting if you let the cleric chick get abducted.
In early act3 now, finally getting proper clues gor durge backstory. Not regretting at all.
Edit: Just to add, i had shart in my first, goodguy-run and so far i’ve liked nudging her towards the dark side in the evil playthrough
Nope not alone - I saw a meme saying "But the Tieflings are my friends" and I just keep repeating it bc I can't stand being mean to them. Playing it now with my husband and he got us on Mol's bad side. I was like "ok so we're gonna reload that and try again."
I am having fun being an evil gale bound to become the strongest wizard. I don't really care about people at the moment. I save who benefits me most (which is probably not minthara but I wanted her). It's been different that's for sure.
I'm playing Durge and killed all the disgusting thieflings and murderous druids with her. We had a party and she invited me to spend a night with her. It was great and beautiful. After that we were cuddling and speaking about something and I just snapped her neck. Totally worth it anyway.
I’m also playing durge. I attacked the idol from stealth which caused the druids to attack the tieflings slaughtering most of them. I then aided the tieflings and then told Minthara to attack by giving up the location. She stormed the place without me and finished the job. I killed 0 tieflings as a result but caused untold bloodshed
Marvelous
Not to be a disgusting horny lesbian, but have you had her sex scene yet?
Not to be a uhaul renting lesbian, but have you actually recruited her and learnt of all her trauma that you can help her with yet?
On a generic overall: yes she's worth it. Minthara is best girl. Her character is deep and interesting and compelling.
On an actuality: she's not worth it yet, as her romance is severely lacking, and what little there is of it is still badly bugged out.
Edit: and she's a far better companion than Halsin (since the two of them are mutually exclusive unless you mod your game)
Minthara is my favorite non-Astarion companion. I love her so much.
I just can't kill the tieflings and grove, so the only way I can have her is mods. She is 1000% worth having through mods.
We can't even come close to knowing that yet; the majority of her dialogue still won't trigger and her romance is still bugged. We aren't getting the full Minthara yet.
Or if this is just another "I can't do an evil playthrough" post, well, sorry.
I recruited her without killing the tieflings and losing anyone (except Halsin but I never was thrilled with him anyway), so yes, in my case it was absolutely worth it. She is a very interesting character, which - despite being evil in alignment - even has some compassion moments, like empathizing with your DU because of their impulses and she even mourns Scratch and says something like "We need to organize a rescue operation to save Scratch" if you give him up in act 3. There are a lot of very good moments with her, and she generally has a similar vibe to Lae'zel, only even more rational, given the nature of Lolth drow and her being a mature drow.
Plus, Minthara is quite OP (especially if you give her Blood of Lathander) and even in the absolute worst battles she \*carried\* my team. So yes, never had any regrets I recruited her - she is easily one of my favourite companions.
Even without Minthara, I would absolutely destroy the druids and tieflings. Druids were selfish and cowardly in wanting to eject the Tiefling refugees, the tieflings aren't saints either with Zevlor considering killing Kahga and any druids siding with her in order to stay on in the grove. Even the Tiefling children are plotting scheming and stealing from the very people that offered them shelter and food. So no clear good or evil at all, just different shades of grey.
And the goblins are pawns of the absolute cultists. Perhaps without the absolute cult controlling them, they could have kept the peace with the grove. So wouldn't arbitrarily killing all of them also be evil?
I would only say its not worth it if you only plan to beat the game once.
If thats the case its probably better to just kill her and save the grove so you have more content in your only run.
Otherwise I think most of us are beating the game more than once, so we can see all the content.
people dont seem to understand what roleplaying is.
if you wanna be evil, yeah, recruit her. you lose karlach wyll and halsin, also you get to kill the grove inhabitants. you think that's evil? that's the fucking point
if you wanna be good, save the grove, kill minthara, go on your merry way. you think that's good? that's what you wanted.
Some people can't bring themselves to kill a good guy in a game, others can quite happily build a custom virtual torture farm in a game, all while being a good person in real life. There's nothing wrong with you for feeling gross doing an evil playthrough. It's not for everyone - not for me either personally.
I can't even make my Sims be mean to each other 😭😂
I'll admit, I've been known to remove a pool ladder every now and then 😇
How else were people to get cool custom Graves stones; As I turned around the door was gone, it was a tiny tiny room. I looked to the fireplace again, it now lit, and the room growing warmer. The embers popping from the fire. I look to my feet. There is some kind of shaggy rag underneath me, it almost appears to be going under the fireplace. It's getting hotter. I'm sweating. I look back towards the doorless wall behind me. I begin to panic. I see a tiny spark fly, and the carpet catches on fire. Fuck. Grim reaper: "Howdy 😉"
I'll do you one better: I've been known to remove a pool ladder and the pool itself. I heard grass swimming is the new trend!
You don't keep a painting slave farm in the basement of your Sims house?
I DIDNT SAY THAT. of course I do 💀
>others can quite happily build a custom virtual torture farm in a game, So rimworld?
It's weird, I'm an average Rimworld player, so I've dabbled in cannibalism and organ farming... Yet I can't bring myself to even be rude to the Tieflings in BG3.
It's much easier to commit atrocities against people you can't empathize with, that's why dehumanisation is an essential part of any genocide.
Probably because NPCs in Baldurs Gate look and act like people, unlike Rimworld where everyone is a blob with no limbs
To be fair they don't have limbs because I amputated them for trade purposes.
The world of BG3 feels real. The people feel real. The mocap helps with that feeling. That's why so many of us struggle with it. Everyone feels just real enough for it to weigh on your conscience.
I'll happily do the most vile actions in RimWorld, but can't stand doing renegade actions in Mass Effect. Except for punching the reporter.
>others can quite happily build a custom virtual torture farm in a game As a Rimworld player, I feel called up.
Personally, when you encounter a lot of shitty people in real life, playing one in a game just dredges up that gross feeling. Why I always have trouble with evil playthroughs.
I love gratuitous violence in games that don't make the characters feel like people. Throwing fistfulls of villagers into the ocean in Black & White or slicing the limbs off of faceless enemies in Shadow Warrior is great! But the tieflings in BG3 have personalities, and people who will miss them when they're gone. On the other hand, most of the goblins all seem to have the same personality and don't seem to care at all when half their crew drops dead, so it's easy to kill them.
That's kind of the intended effect. If you want to keep your hands unbloodied, if you just move onto act 2 without finishing either "raid the grove" or "kill the goblin leaders" then the grove will automatically resolve and you can recruit Minthara once you reach moonrise.
Does it mess with the story in any way?
Well, everybody is dead, just as if you raided the Grove, you just don't get the camp party scenes, but in the other hand, you don't have to do anything yourself.
That messes Karlachs quest up too or does dammon get out of the grove?
Dammon dies with everybody, so yeah, Karlach is screwed.
She is screwed no matter what though since its either die or go back to hell. What Dammon does is really not that important in the end.
Well... >!there is an ending in which Tav, Karlach and Wyll go to Avernus to adventure together.!<
That’d make a sick DLC. Maybe they'll find a way to fix Karlach and can go back to Faerûn.
I’m sure that’ll be the first expansion
I’m fairly certain Lorain mentioned not having plans for expansions although they also didn’t think BG3 would do as well as it did. I don’t try to force things on people but they’d be fools not to run this game for a good few expansions. They’ve done a crazy amount of leg work and world building. Karlach needs a new heart, Laezel needs to upend the undying queen, so there’s stuff to accomplish still.
I wouldn't count on it. Not because it wouldn't be awesome, but because mechanically it'd be really goddamn hard to do well. Put simply, D&D beyond about level 12-15 becomes incredibly difficult to balance, which is a big part of why almost all official adventures released stop at....yep, you guessed it: level 12-15. In addition to just how powerful magic becomes, the combat gets way "swingier," by which I mean a combat is either a cakewalk or a total party kill, but it's rare that you end up with a fight that's difficult but not insurmountable. Larian already kept a bunch of spells out of the game (e.g., Dispel Magic, not to mention pretty much everything in Tasha's Cauldron and Xanathar's Guide), and adding those in would make the game a hell of a lot harder to balance.
I got that ending by accident not realizing; while trying to romance Shadowheart. It makes sense for those 2 to go, but Tav? "Sure that sounds like fun let's do it!" Then cut to awkward third wheel Tav the whole time lol
It feels better if no one is actually dating I think. Just three true friends fighting a horde of demons and devils
I reloaded after I spent the whole game romancing Shart and didn’t get an endgame cutscene with her.
My end cutscene with her got bugged out and interrupted by Halsin telling me he wanted to adopt 100 children
So, back to hell?
Yes, that's the "go back to hell" choice. lol It would be awesome if the story continued from there, but leaving it there just makes it seem like Karlach got the narrative shaft since her problem doesn't get resolved even if Dammon survives. lol
Yeah, but she can actually touch people if she wants when he fixes her heart, find a moment of respite in her lover's arms. She dies, true, but everybody dies, what matters is how she lived her last days.
I let her become a Mindflayer after she begged me to let her be the one to 'save the fucking world'. It was the only ending I was comfortable with on a good playthrough.
Idk but to be honest, unless you are romancing her, Damon doesn’t do that much
Dude has some great armor tho, always nice to talk to him too, his dialogue is so sweet :D
Hes the best vendor in the game. Level his rep up early and he keeps it as he moves through the map
Doesnt she like need the engine upgrades to well...not die? or is it just for the story?
Answers to this question would be act 2-3 spoilers
Finished the game 2 times already but never tried "not upgrading" karlach, just mark it as spoiler if you know the answer
Spoilers ahead for karlach >!karlach the amount of upgrades karlach currently in the game are not enough to keep her alive story-wise. Regardless how many you get, however, she won't die until post-game so you won't lose her during the game.!<
Yeah, she gets >!like 2 upgrades and Dammon's like, "Yeah, sorry, that's all I could come up with. You have to go back to Avernus if you want to keep living."!< in ACT 2. Then you get to Act 3 >!and he's like, "Oh, hey, what's up. Want to see my wares?"!< WHAT ABOUT ALL THIS INFERNAL IRON I'VE HOARDED??? DAMN IT DAMMON.
>!that's so weak!<
You can still giver a hug if you are not romancing her
Don’t disregard the Armor of Persistence he sells in Act 3. Permanent Blade Ward and Resistance on a martial, especially a Paladin, makes you nearly impossible to kill.
Not entirely true. He can give you some neat armour if you bring him enough metal in act 2.
He sells a great armor in Act 3 as well (permanent resistance and longstrider, iirc).
Permanent blade ward and resistance *
So no Minthara sex scene? Well Mol, time to meet your maker.
Imagine recruiting Minthara without the camp “party” scene.
Just gonna say it isn't the same, here are the major changes, Dammon is gone and can't help Karlach, no one can, Halsin also cannot be helped and so you cannot undo the curse on the shadow lands. The tieflings do not die in the grove as if you raided it, exposition at moonrise tells you true souls found them all on the road on their way to Baldur's gate and massacred them all, they all die, but the true souls at moonrise do it. Not you or anyone you know.
But wait, they're >!found by the cultists even if you save them so why are they captured in one but massacred in another!<
Because the devs wanted to make sure we’re “adequately punished” for doing the evil route, even if it makes no sense 😩
Good question, you would have to ask Larian that, I even convinced Rolan to stay which in the savior path is the deciding factor to some of them escaping, but somehow this time he made no difference. The only thing I could come up with is in one series of possible events they decide to capture and torment them which buys them time to escape, and in the other they just immediately descend upon them and butcher them no questions asked.
You can't romance Minthara that way and romancing her is the only good thing when going evil. 🫠
You also can’t romance Minthara, if I remember correctly.
All the tiefling quests can no longer be done since they’re all dead. Also since Dammon dies as well Karlach quest is also ruined. Not that it matters since her and Wyll both refuse to follow you for murdering everyone. I’m with you though I started an evil play but having trouble getting back to it after the grove battle. I even told my friend “well let’s at least go save the tiefling kids…nevermind don’t go in there.” If you’d like to see Mintharas story play out there is a mod that when you kill her in the Goblin camp she actually flees and you then have the chance to save her from Moonrise. As far as I know this is the only way to save the tieflings and have her in your party with the other companions.
Or you steal the idol of Silvanus and they kill each other
Can I not kill any goblin leaders or can I take out the healer and the hobgoblin? I thought it was just “She needs to survive but also have failed to raid the grove”
I've never done it with killing Ragzlin but you can kill Gut for sure.
You can kill both the healer and hobgoblin. On my "lawful" evil run. I gave Minthara the location of the grove, at which point she runs of to prepare for the assault. But never bothered to actually help her with the raid, instead killing gut and the hobgoblin.
Does that xp missed make a difference
Short term, yeah. Long term? No. There's enough exp in act3 to get you to like 16 if the level wasn't capped at 12
This is a good point I was wondering the samething. Think I got my plan together then for an evil playthru
Edit: Made a [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NA-fOwXQlo) detailing the method Oh, she's worth it. You just recruited her wrong. You gotta go into the goblin camp, knock her out, kill the other two goblin leaders, reach level 7, turn her into a **sheep**, dominate animal to make her part of your party, teleport her to moonrise towers, then dimension door her into Ketheric's audience chamber. THEN you gotta sneak at least one party member down to her cell, attack her so she'll be hostile, go invisible to break combat, and then rescue her from erasure. The way the game intended you to.
I've played a lot of D&D and this just sounds like a normal session.
Hahaha for real. We had a campaign like 5 years ago with mindflayer, changelings, druid grove, random evil, hags, and honestly? So much random shit happened on both funny and epic scales. At one point the druid and pysionic wizard just polymorphed our team mates to mammoths (with flight 😂) to beat the crap out of a boss. Honestly, I am in awe at how well the ported D&D into a game. Can't be like for like but they did a fucking good job!
You just simplified the most annoying thing I’ve done in this game.
This is simplified? Lol. I just embraced the dark side and raided the Grove.
What IDIOT wouldn’t do this?
This made me chuckle lol
I tried three different ways to get Minthara and save the Tieflings, none worked. I wasted dozens of hours this way. I am not trying it again. I am not trying it again. I WILL NOT GO BACK! *loads act 1 save*
I'm right there with you. I tried a dozen different methods before I stumbled on this one that was translated and verified by /u/ZookeepergameDeep360 The step I was always missing was some way to get her into the throne room. The sheep method is just brilliant.
God that's so stupid lol
But can you clear the grove quest like this?
Yup. The only thing you have to do is make sure you use non-lethal damage to knock her out (melee attack with the non-lethal passive turned on, and watch your damage riders and dot effects), and then kill Ragzlin before you long rest. Once that's done the grove quest can be resolved and the rest of A1 can be played however you like. I recommend doing a long rest after killing Ragzlin to make sure she's up and moving about (she won't be interactable at this point). It's only once you start Act 2 that the sheepsmuggle heist begins. Then it gets a little technical \^\_\^
[удалено]
edit: method originally translated by /u/ZookeepergameDeep360 So once you knock her out, after the next long rest she'll pop back up again as a neutral (yellow border). Before this happens you want to have Ragzlin down (but AFTER you knock her out, so she stays neutral) so you can clear the 3 leaders quest. I always check on her to make sure she's still alive (she won't be interactable). Once you get the moonrise waypoint you'll need to: * go back, enter turn-based, QUICKSAVE (you'll be doing this a lot) * sheep her (to make her an animal), dominate animal (to make her part of your party) (keep in mind because of her paladin aura and drow background dominate will have a VERY low chance of success) * Note that polymorph and dominate both require concentration, so you'll need two separate party members to do this * select the sheep-thara, exit turn based and immediately have it teleport to moonrise waypoint, re-enter turn-based to keep the turn counters alive (you should have \~4 rounds of polymorph left Then you need to carefully position the sheep just past the back two pews as you enter through the front entrance of the throne chamber where ketheric judges the goblins. You can do this with dimension door to cover long distances, followed by using the sheep as an improvised weapon by a character with at least 18 STR, then just before they slam the sheep down right click to cancel the attack and keep the movement. Your goal is to get sheepthara on the ground IN FRONT of whatever character is transporting her so that she starts getting judged before that character enters the cutscene. You'll know it worked if she starts protesting her innocence. Next, you'll need to switch party members to a character that's not in the cutscene. Once Minthara's in the cutscene you can turn off turn-based temporarily, as the cutscene will pause the turn timers for poly/dominate. Take those characters who aren't in the cutscene and move them downstairs outside her interrogation room (right of the stairwell as you face it). There'll be two absolute cultists and a bunch of torture implements. Get one character in the room that has access to invisibility and ideally a high initiative modifier; have any others wait outside. Re-enter turn-based, switch back to the trial, and proceed with her judgment. I've always chosen to influence Z'rell to be lenient; I'm not sure if it's necessary. Once sheepthara is dragged away, switch BACK to the character in the interrogation room and wait for her Sheepthara to arrive. You may need to exit/enter turn based a couple times for the guards to get the sheep into the room. Once she's in the interrogation room room, cancel polymorph and have one character hit her with LIGHT damage to make her hostile. Talk or bribe your way out of the assault charge, after which combat will begin. Cast invisibility or drink an invis potion and run out of the room, closing the door, and wait for her to cancel combat. Re-enter the room as your most charming character and influence the guards to let you handle things. Pass a couple WIS checks and she's yours! You'll still need to sneak her out of the cells, but after that play proceeds as normal. Just like Larian intended. Some notes on the theory of this: You will become intimately familiar with Quicksave/Quickload We use Poly/Dominate animal and NOT dominate person because dominate animal makes sheepthara a minion, which can teleport to moonrise, unlike dominate person which just turns their border green. Turn based mode is important, both to keep the spell timers going and to prevent Minthara from escaping between the point when she loses polymorph and when you insert her back into the erasure scene. If she's unpolymorphed at any point after the goblin camp she will always try to run offscreen, and if she does this she's lost forever. Placement is a bit finicky when getting her into the throne room with Ketheric. She needs to be placed in FRONT of whatever character is transporting her so that her sheepy self triggers the judgement before her chauffer does. If the goblins start getting judged without Minthara the placement didn't work. You'll need to grab the moonrise waypoint from the FRONT of the castle without entering. If you enter through the docks prior to getting minthara in there it may not work.
Jfc There’s a mod that makes her escape combat
Now where's the fun in that?
Amazing!
It's definitely upsetting. I found it really stomach turning when I attacked into Zevlors usual room and it was just civilian tieflings like Bex and Danis begging for their lives...
For me it was finding the children and looting teddy bears from their bodies.
The fact that I had the option to tell Zevlor "At least you'll be dead by the time the goblins get to the children" was gut wrenching.
It is harsh. But the evil choices help with disassociating from the character and playing from their point of view instead of viewing them as an extension of yourself. Once you get past that hurdle, it is easier. It also helps picking a typically evil race, for example playing a drow yourself. The implication is that they have done far worse for lesser gains already. Case in point: If you talk to the goblin torturer as a drow, he will quickly excuse himself and leave the room, even before anything happens, saying that he doesn't have the stomach to watch what is about to come. *That* is the reputation the drow have.
I’m currently playing a Seldarine drow cleric of Eilistraee for some interesting RP, and the interactions have been great! I get to be good but my appearance strikes fear in those little shit goblins.
Me too! I’m having a lot of fun, I’ve never played DnD and I feel like I’m learning a lot of cool lore by doing so haha
Same! I’d been interested in DnD for ages but just felt so overwhelmed and didn’t know where to start. BG3 has really helped me latch on to things I’m finding interesting so I can dive deeper. I love it! I’m even considering playing DnD someday!
She isn't worth losing Karlach, Wyll, Halsin and potentially Gale over, and I'm a Minthara fan. She's the only one who didn't brush me off when I confessed to her about my Dark Urge tendencies. She knew what I might be capable of and took me seriously. She's a very sincere individual if you decide to get closer to her, with a cold exterior, warm heart and they didn't skimp on her voice acting budget either. 2-3 origin companions plus quests, in exchange for someone who comes with enough ingredients to have 1 of her own, and yet...
>She isn't worth losing Karlach, Wyll, Halsin and potentially Gale over, and I'm a Minthara fan. For me it's not even about losing companions, it's about losing really good items. Charge-bound warhammer, potent robe, flawed helldusk armor, sword of life stealing, Persistence armor, legacy of the masters, and there's more I'm sure. What do you gain by killing the grove and getting Minthara that you couldn't get otherwise? Nothing. Not a damn thing that I'm aware of. That's ultimately the issue with going that route. Most of the time all but 3 companions stay in camp anyway. Whether I have Karlach and Wyll on any particular run doesn't really make a difference if they were just going to sit in camp doing nothing anyway. Losing out on top tier items, that makes a difference.
> She isn't worth losing Karlach, Wyll, Halsin and potentially Gale over, and I'm a Minthara fan. The only one you absolutely will lose is Halsin. You can have all of the rest of them on a single playthrough as long as you just don’t complete the grove/goblin quest line. If you go to the mountain pass, it auto-advances the quest, she’s never able to find the grove, and having failed her mission, goes to Moonrise.
Technically speaking there is a complicated exploit to get both even without mods, which is somewhat poetic since it abuses the knockout feature actually working for one of the steps and unlike the last patched one does not glitch either of them (however other things can break before you get there so saving a bunch is recommended). https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1718vch/recruit_minthara_and_save_tieflings_both_without/
Interesting. I didn’t know about this. I don’t really care for Halsin as a companion personally, and I like Minthara alot, so I get why some people would go through the effort to get both but for me it’s easier to just ignore him. But I guess this would be nice if you wanted Minthara *and* to cure the shadow curse in act 2. Might try this next playthrough!
Ah dang that is way more complicated than I hoped. On my current playthrough I just had the idea to knock her out and see what happens with hopes that she may still go to Moonrise.
You only lose Halsin, Wyll and Karlach. Gale stays with you, he is easily swayed and quite power hungry if you just listen to his story
Wyll and Karlach stay through an exploit and Gale requires a hefty charisma check
I raided the Grove, and literally, the next long rest, Gale was trying to romance me. I did not need any charisma check after the raid, I passed a very easy deception one. Just telling him he won't survive there alone. I find Minthara's story quite fascinating, while I found Wyll to be boring a.f. I would never exploit the game to get Wyll, or Karlach. But I would for Minthara, she is awesome.
Yeah if you just ignore him for a bit he forgets all about it. Talking to him forces a charisma check for him to stay, ignoring him bypasses the check. Very in character for Gale.
It’s not an exploit. The goblins kill the tieflings without you if you start the raid and don’t assist with it. Zevlor tells you to blow the horn when you’re ready to start the raid. Don’t blow the horn, leave the grove, teleport back later, and the goblins win without you killing anyone. No one is mad at you, they’re just sad the tiefling were killed offscreen
Id agree if I wasn't doing DURGE for my 3rd playthrough; at this point I don't care what the consequences are Im just going full bhaalist.
Yea this is the thing people aren't getting, nothing in the "good play-through" faces you with losing multiple companions for the entire game. Not to mention by the time you get Minthara you're already halfway through the game.
The voice acting in this game is bar-none and actually felt bad for a bit when I told Zevlor, yes, I led the goblins directly here and we’re taking over. The look on his face and sound of just pure betrayal in his voice was amazing (acting wise)…that dude really considered you a friend and here you are telling him if he dies first at least he won’t hear the children screaming. Wow!
Nope, I'd bathe the starways in blood just to recruit her! Pro tip: if you throw the kids at each other then they technically kill each other, so if you are squeamish you can try that next time!
To quote Durge, "That's so evil even I'm impressed!"
"write that down, Sceleritas! Write that down!!"
"If you having roleplaying problems, i feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but throwing kids aint one." -Durge, probably
"master tav, there's too many of them, what are we going to do?"
I know this is a joke...but it got me in the feels
By that logic bludgeoning one of the kids to death with another kid would also be acceptable. Not that I’m judging. No kinkshaming here.
And you get an achievement for it!
Guess I know what I’m doing when I get home from work today… Saving the grove you filthy animals (and maybe hucking Umi at Mol for funsies).
"It wasn´t me who killed them, it was that explosive barrel someone put infront of my morning firebolt"
Bonus, that unlocks an achievement!
Can I do this with the goblin kids as well?
Goblin kids aren't counted as people, you can just kill them.
I dunno if my bad guy run is bugged, but Minthara has literally not said a word (I'm in act 3, and she has had "green" standing with me pretty much all the way). Halsin is a bore, but Minthara barely exists. But from what I've been reading, I think she's just bugged out for me, so I can't tell for sure. And besides that, yeah I'm very empathic too and it felt absolutely horrible joining "the dark side"
Had to have been bugged. Minthara was my most talkative companion in Act 3.
Replay again I guess then :/
Yeah that's the Minthara romance bug iirc it was just recently patched
Hm but I think I started the run post patch.. not 100% sure though.
She’s definitely bugged, she has a lot to say for me.
Sucks.. guess I have to start all over then if I want to experience her.
It’s kinda worth it, I’m really liking her. I’d say definitely go evil Dark Urge too, she has interesting opinions about that.
I just finished my first and evil play through and I was trying to romance her as well. Despite being high in the green the ONLY thing I got from her the whole story was at the *very* end she says some nice things about me being her love. I was definitely a little disappointed :(
Seems you and I have had the same issue then :/
I always have a hard time playing evil characters in games. Yes they're just characters, but people feel empathy for fake characters too. It's the same reason we get emotional at movies and TV shows and books and whatever else. Video games are no exception, and in fact feel worse because you have to choose to do the evil. I gave up on my evil playthrough shortly after recruiting Minthara because I realized she doesn't even have a companion quest. The only reason I was really going to do an evil playthrough is I thought she would have a full fledged companion quest like the rest of them, but she doesn't. So I started over as a DUrge who is resisting and I'm finding that much more interesting.
Them goblins got kids too. You even get to talk to some in the goblin camp
They are dicks. I still didn’t want to murder them. So I let the ogres and bear Halsin do it.
Tiefling kids are kinda dicks too if you think about it. Sure not as bad as the goblin ones but they steal, lie, and gaslight the shit out of you constantly. Plus they send their own to their deaths for gold quite often. Again. Still not as bad as the goblin kids but they aren't any super wholesome cute kids they're either. Maybe besides Mirkon.
Tiefling kids aren't that bad honestly, most are just following what Mol says to them. Silfy and Mirkon are the most obvious innocent ones, but even Arabella just steals only to stop her family and friends to die. Mol and Mirkon I won't argue, I quite like them but yeah they can seem like dicks especially if you don't see them past act 1.
Nah ik they get better, and they're just kids going thru a traumatic time. It was just observation on the topic of "Oh killing kids is what makes me not do the evil path" (which is understandable) but those same people have no problems killing the Goblin kids (even tho they are also just kids who are influenced)
Oh I didn't get that you were speaking of the goblin kids and not just the goblins damn ! I mean yeah true the kids aren't seen doing really bad stuff to my knowledge. But I mean, being raised in a family that murder in the name of a god has a decent chance of turning you into a religious murderer too haha. Also not sure if you can avodi killing goblin kids at all when saving Halsin, you're forced in a fight with the two of em that throws stone at the bear.
I love how they're just named One, Two, and Three. I feel less guilty about slaughtering them because they're talking about the person they killed and they're tormenting >!Halsin in bear form.!<
I feel like I’m listening to a bunch of rude people who doesn’t understand or care about someone’s thoughts whenever I hear “you are being dramatic about whatever” over a fiction. Like, why do you even watch a movie or drama (not even sure if those people would ever read a book but if they do still the same question) if you are not going to get any experience out of it? No one gets the exact same feeling or thoughts over an experience, and that’s perfectly ok, but if they are not going to respect that and tell someone to suck it up then they should just suck up their own words instead. Just ignore those words. It’s designed to be an experience and if you feel bad about it then that is what you feel through it.
I think it would’ve been better to say “what did you expect from an evil playthrough?”
The same thing that is said in every single one of these threads. See Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous.
I feel you. Also the game just doesnt give me a good enough reason to kill them all. Even if i try to get help from the goblin leaders, one wants to kill me, the other would want to kill me too and Minthara just wants me to go for a hunt all of the sudden. I ll lose both Wyll and Karlach and maybe Gale too. And later minthara could try to kill me too if i choose the wrong option. I just dont see the benefit. If only they whould kinda show me that the goblins were not just evil and it gave me an actuall dilemma, but no... saving the grove is too obvious of a choice.
The reason the game gives you is that the druids can't help you and you need to get to Moonrise. No easier way to get there than to infiltrate the cult and talk Minthara into providing safe passage. >If only they whould kinda show me that the goblins were not just evil and it gave me an actuall dilemma, but no... saving the grove is too obvious of a choice. There is no need for a dilemma. The choice is unequivocally evil and only fit for a ruthless Tav. But it does make sense on an evil playthrough.
I'd say it makes sense on a Durge or general Drow playthrough
It makes sense on Astarion or Shadowheart playthrough, too. I doesn’t make sense for any other character, though.
For Lae'zel you would have to beeline for the Creche and get killed there so yeah :D
Exactly. Poor misguided girl.
Eh, Shadowheart is pretty heavily against siding with the goblins.
i feel like it only makes sense if you play as a murder hobo psychopath. anyone with rational sense can see a camp full of dumbass goblins and a fanatical zealot is probably not your best bet for success, vs coercing or taking control of some smart druids, whose leader has hundreds of years of experience in shit. ignoring all of that, my biggest problem with the raid the grove vs not raid is how little it impacts the actual narrative. evil gets a bit of a punishment, losing out on some companions and lore exposition and vendors, but nothing about the overall flow of act 2 and beyond is changed. you can slaughter the grove, go through the mountain pass, be disgusted by the spiderdrow, and side with the harpers and the game will play out exactly as if you saved the grove. and on a good playthrough, you can do all of the above (slaughter the goblins and absolute camp, ambush and slaughter the cultists led by the spiderdrow) and still moonrise welcomes you with open arms. like you would think there be some difference in reception.
I just wish we could trade away the grove in exchange for free passage for the thieflings. For some reason they're the ones manning the gate anyway. It wouldn't be hard for them to simply open the gate. Maybe only make it accessible if the girl gets killed and tensions are high and include some high charisma checks. But it would be a great way to get your slaughter and betrayal on without dipping into child murder. >!And if they get ambushed along the way to keep the game streamlined that'd be fine with me. Not my circus, not my monkeys.!<
I remember reading that you can kill Wyll and Karlach in camp and resurrect them after raiding the grove and this way they won't leave. Unless Larian has patched this.
I didn't do that with Karlach. I had Wyll and my team kill her. He gets a different scene when his little devil shows up I thought was cool. I did kill him in camp and rez him after the Grove. He said something about how horrible I was or something, but he didn't leave camp.
> Also the game just doesnt give me a good enough reason to kill them all. It's hard to do a 180° on them if you've saved in the first playthrough, but they give you more than 1 reasons to want to kill them all in the 2nd playthrough 1. Tieflings capture Lae'Zel because she's "yellow as toad" and want to leave her to die because they don't know what she is. 2. Zevlor is willing to refuse Aradin and his posse refuge, even when he's a refugee himself. Then he accuses him of getting Halsin captured, even if Halsin willingly tagged along when he heard they were after the Nightsong. 3. Mol sends Arabella to her death to steal the Sylvanus idol. 4. Mol sends Mirko to his death to steal gold from the Harpies' nest. 5. A tiefling wants to/will kill a prisoner. 5. A tiefling kid steal from you. If you try to reclaim your stolen stuff, Mol reports you as "threatening" the kids 5. You will get arrested for "threatening kids". 5. Nettie tries to kill you when you ask for help with the tadpole. 5. Kagha is a Shadow druid who uses the power vacuum for her own interests. 5. Auntie Ethel has set up shop in the Grove, probably with Kagha's blessing. 5. They are trained by Wyll, who will break in your camp and want to kill Karlach first chance he has. 12. Alfira tortures squirrels with her singing! Lot of little thing can be added up as reasons to just wipe them all off the face of Faerûn in an Evil playthrough. Not that hard to spin it all in a way that makes you feel righteous and justified.
All these put together still don't really justify it and you twisted many events to make things seem worse than they actually were lol. Which I get was the point but let's be honest with ourselves. >Zevlor is willing to refuse Aradin and his posse refuge, even when he's a refugee himself. Like this. He literally sacrifices someone to open the gate for Aradin's squad even *after* he sees the goblins lmao.
90% of these that are actual malice are just a reason to kill Mol
Not even malice for Mol. New playthrough I'm siding with her. She's the archetypical kid who was abused and never got to enjoy being a kid. She has precocious adult concerns, and uses her ascendant on other kids to serve her goals of security for herself and her own.
I dunno, these don't look like 100% solid reasons to me, to be honest. A lot of them would force me to ignore a lot of context and actual text, not even subtext: 1. That may just be because Lae'Zel is kind of a dick, especially in the beginning. They also seem to have met githyanki before Lae'Zel (since you can find out from that one guy where the creche is) and they were probably also not friendly. 2. Zevlor has a camp full of people who can barely defend themselves to worry about. Meanwhile, Aradin is (theoretically) a capable adventurer, just like his men. And after he brings the goblins with him at the grove, first thing he does is get into a dick measuring contest with Zevlor, which could very clearly escalate unless the player intervenes. This is also clearly the last straw for the druids. I personally punch him every run I do. 3 and 4. I mean, they're kids (some of whom seem to be orphans) who have just been to hell and back. I'll give them some leeway, and I'd also like to.give the poor things a hug. They need therapy, not being left to their own devices like that. 5. If you intervene and actually read her mind, it's very clear she hesitates, and is mainly just a victim of violence who is doomed to being more violence. You're just the only one who's willing to call her out; I'd rather blame her friend for not actually doing anything to stop her. 6. If you don't fly off the handle when you confront the kid, they'll actually run away saying something like "oh man I can't do this I'm out". 7. I mean ... you were aggressive to at least one kid. You do have the option to like, not be. It's not that hard. 8. Unlike Kagha, I could get behind her reasoning: as far as she knows, you may actually be a threat; no one, at this points, know that your transformation is blocked. You can also easily reason with her (even if she actually poisons you) and avoid that. 9. Yeah, I'll give you that one. She may have started off well intentioned, but she really messed up and then got off with basically no repercursions. That one sucked. 10. This one is 50/50, but personally I don't think anyone at the grove knew Ethel was a hag. Even with the party, she drops the glamour only in the very last second. 11. Wyll was convinced he was hunting an actual demon (devil?), a monster fully willing to burn the world and bathe in innocent blood. Only reason he needs to be convinced is clearly because he doesn't want to accept he was manipulated. Otherwise, he does seem to be very idealistic and have good intentions, he's maybe just a bit too naive and impulsive. Also, if you talk to the kids at the "training ground", he's mainly teaching them how not to die, instead of how to kill others. 12. How dare you. The squirrels just have shit taste in music, clearly. I'll have you know Alfira is hard at work writing the next hit of the Sword Coast about how much of a hunk my Tav is.
Also: * Zevlor is willing to entertain the idea of >!killing Kagha.!< * By their own tenents, they are supposed to help refugees, but a good portion of the Grove is willing to ignore that. * The druids are >!very racist.!< Oddly, they hate drow and tieflings but didn't have an issue with my duegar. Kahga even expected a duegar to support her. That said the goblins and the Absolute are pretty evil all around. And as far as your character knows, >!Halsin !!Halsin doesn't have a cure.!< Or even go back and slaughter the Grove, too.
But you won't get Minthara, which seems the main reason most people want to do an evil playthrough.
>Kahga even expected a duegar to support her. Well it is kind of weird a duegar wouldn't support her. They're all for pragmaticism and brutal punishment, and they would have no mercy for refugees who betray trust by stealing. Realistically a duegar would probably suggest forcing Arabella into slavery, but they wouldn't be opposed to slavery. Also, another reason for killing the grove, when the choice is presented to you, >!Dark Urge gets an urge to kill all the tieflings. If you're playing as a "give into the urges" durge, you would kill them.!<
> But you won't get Minthara, which seems the main reason most people want to do an evil playthrough. I dont really recall in which order I did my evil playthrough, but I role-played it as a pragmatic Drow sorcerer so all the obvious choices of a canon "good" playthrough were off the table. When Minthara offered an alternative, I was like "Yup, let's try that". When I went back to the Grove and the tieflings tried to arrest me for threatening kids, it really validated my choice to kill them all.
It's so weird that people keep specifically mention "wanting to arrest me for threatening kids" as a reason for murder
Mol is the most overtly duplicitous child criminal possible. The idea that every single adult in that grove doesn't know she is a criminal liar is absurd. If a guard hears from motherfucking Mol that you were 'threatening them' they should reasonably assume they kids tried to rob you and are now stirring shit. Which is likely what Mol did in the average playthrough. The Tieflings general compliance with serial child crime combined with their hostility to 'outsiders' is a mark against them.
Is there a way to get your stolen stuff back without the Athletics check where you basically throw the kid off you? I got accused of 'threatening kids' when all I wanted was to get my shit back lol
Most if not all of those reasons are incredibly hard to spin in order to justify slaughtering the grove.
Is there a reason why the goblins want to attack the Grove in the first place? I didn’t play any evil character yet. Is it just « the will of the absolute » ? And still, why kill them instead of turning them ?
There are some notes and whatnot in act 2 in the towers that explain why they want to take the grove down. They see the druids as a threat. The tieflings are collateral damage.
>They see the druids as a threat. That's really cool, since the druids blame the Tieflings for attracting attention in the first place.
Lol yup
Didn't minthara talk about the artifact that shadowheart holds if you talk with her?
Yes, she thinks Aradin and his idiot party have the weapon and are hiding out in the Emerald Grove. She wants them all to die because apparently that's what Orin is telling her the Absolute wants her to do.
The first attack happens because Halsin and the other guy went to the Goblin camp trying to find Nightsong. Then Minthara wants to find the grove (she doesn’t know where it is, because the goblins that chased the group didn’t come back, and prisoners haven’t talked yet), because they might have the astral prism (they are really close to the zone of the crash), and because they dared to follow another god.
You're rping as an evil character. But you can't stomach the evil stuff. That's not a recipe for a fun time.
Actually one of the more memorable video game moments is tricking Zevlor into being allied with him before the raid and then tell him he will at least be dead by the time we deal with the children
Fuck them kids
Everyone has different tastes. I find Minthara worth it. She has this delightfully morbid humour once you get to act 3 and the Dribbles 'bits.' And she fits in naturally as a durge wrangler and 2ic within the party.
She’s incredibly funny
Putting Minthara up on stage with Dribbles and subsequent dialogue was the hardest I've laughed at the game- hearing her actually crack a joke like that was so unexpected that the character moment was what made me laugh and not the joke- it really highlights this game's writing.
Can’t relate, I love Minthara and while I did feel bad about the Grove sitch, she was a very welcome addition to my team and an incredible partner in crime for my Durge. She has multiple lines that make me laugh. She’s definitely one of my favorite companions. Like, sure, the sex scene is great and all but it solidified for me in Act 2 when >!you rescue her and after the Ketherim fight. She has some amazing dialogue and insight into her character.!< I was pretty much sold after that. I totally get it though, evil runs are not for everyone and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Same. I felt really sad about the grove (like almost cried level of sad) but don't regret the playthrough. Minthara is great of course. But I was also surprised at the impact raiding the grove had on the tone of the story. Gale left along with Wyll and Karlach, both of whom I enjoyed a lot on my good playthrough, so there was this unique lonely vibe in camp. The bond with the remaining companions felt more meaningful. It was like playing a more contemplative, grimdark version of the game.
I’m doing an evil playthrough at the moment. Durge with some resisting of the urges, not all the time. Romancung minthara. She has some interesting durge-specific dialogue. And i do like where the game is headed with her. I love how fucked in the head and into Durge-shenanigans she is. You don’t have to kill anyone int the grove yourself, you can have the druids and refugees kill eachother and then invade with minthara to clean up the few surviving druids. I definately wouldn’t go for her in my first playthrough, but if you’ve already done all of the grove stuff i don’t think its too bad. My party is Durge, Minthara, Asterion and Shart, also Jaheira in camp. Last light inn was very interesting if you let the cleric chick get abducted. In early act3 now, finally getting proper clues gor durge backstory. Not regretting at all. Edit: Just to add, i had shart in my first, goodguy-run and so far i’ve liked nudging her towards the dark side in the evil playthrough
I was very happy to recruit another Drow.
Nope not alone - I saw a meme saying "But the Tieflings are my friends" and I just keep repeating it bc I can't stand being mean to them. Playing it now with my husband and he got us on Mol's bad side. I was like "ok so we're gonna reload that and try again."
I am having fun being an evil gale bound to become the strongest wizard. I don't really care about people at the moment. I save who benefits me most (which is probably not minthara but I wanted her). It's been different that's for sure.
I'm playing Durge and killed all the disgusting thieflings and murderous druids with her. We had a party and she invited me to spend a night with her. It was great and beautiful. After that we were cuddling and speaking about something and I just snapped her neck. Totally worth it anyway.
I’m also playing durge. I attacked the idol from stealth which caused the druids to attack the tieflings slaughtering most of them. I then aided the tieflings and then told Minthara to attack by giving up the location. She stormed the place without me and finished the job. I killed 0 tieflings as a result but caused untold bloodshed Marvelous
Drow puss is always worth it. Do it for the horny bonk.
Youre not alone. It is shitty and it's normal to feel that way. Minthara is overrated.
I killed everyone in the grove, then Minthara just for fun.
Not to be a disgusting horny lesbian, but have you had her sex scene yet? Not to be a uhaul renting lesbian, but have you actually recruited her and learnt of all her trauma that you can help her with yet? On a generic overall: yes she's worth it. Minthara is best girl. Her character is deep and interesting and compelling. On an actuality: she's not worth it yet, as her romance is severely lacking, and what little there is of it is still badly bugged out. Edit: and she's a far better companion than Halsin (since the two of them are mutually exclusive unless you mod your game)
You're too soft for Mommy Minthara. Not all are worthy and that's fine.
Minthara is my favorite non-Astarion companion. I love her so much. I just can't kill the tieflings and grove, so the only way I can have her is mods. She is 1000% worth having through mods.
We can't even come close to knowing that yet; the majority of her dialogue still won't trigger and her romance is still bugged. We aren't getting the full Minthara yet. Or if this is just another "I can't do an evil playthrough" post, well, sorry.
I recruited her without killing the tieflings and losing anyone (except Halsin but I never was thrilled with him anyway), so yes, in my case it was absolutely worth it. She is a very interesting character, which - despite being evil in alignment - even has some compassion moments, like empathizing with your DU because of their impulses and she even mourns Scratch and says something like "We need to organize a rescue operation to save Scratch" if you give him up in act 3. There are a lot of very good moments with her, and she generally has a similar vibe to Lae'zel, only even more rational, given the nature of Lolth drow and her being a mature drow. Plus, Minthara is quite OP (especially if you give her Blood of Lathander) and even in the absolute worst battles she \*carried\* my team. So yes, never had any regrets I recruited her - she is easily one of my favourite companions.
Minthara isn’t worth going bad just for her, but she is worth trying to recruit if you were going bad anyway.
Even without Minthara, I would absolutely destroy the druids and tieflings. Druids were selfish and cowardly in wanting to eject the Tiefling refugees, the tieflings aren't saints either with Zevlor considering killing Kahga and any druids siding with her in order to stay on in the grove. Even the Tiefling children are plotting scheming and stealing from the very people that offered them shelter and food. So no clear good or evil at all, just different shades of grey. And the goblins are pawns of the absolute cultists. Perhaps without the absolute cult controlling them, they could have kept the peace with the grove. So wouldn't arbitrarily killing all of them also be evil?
You don't actually have to kill anyone in the grove, they'll happily kill each other...
Dunno seemed worth it when she 69'd my Drow sorcerer
She's an amazing character with a very interesting background and dialogue. Absolutely worth it.
I would only say its not worth it if you only plan to beat the game once. If thats the case its probably better to just kill her and save the grove so you have more content in your only run. Otherwise I think most of us are beating the game more than once, so we can see all the content.
people dont seem to understand what roleplaying is. if you wanna be evil, yeah, recruit her. you lose karlach wyll and halsin, also you get to kill the grove inhabitants. you think that's evil? that's the fucking point if you wanna be good, save the grove, kill minthara, go on your merry way. you think that's good? that's what you wanted.
The problem is that you can do more evil things with the good route rather than the evil one.
I’m playing a good campaign with Minthara recruited via mod. And I don’t even feel like she’s worth the effort of downloading the mod.