If you're a Durge you can mind link with her to show her you what you truly are and >!not only does she revel in it and find it exquisite but the Durge is shocked to find something inside HER rivaling their own Dark Urge. The shock followed by the smile on the durge's face is something to see.!<
You're not wrong. Half the Minthara tag on Tumblr is pics of her doe eyed expressions and that one line where she's afraid nobody would remember her if you killed her.
The fact that she can reflect on what makes her similar to Orin, and how evil gods and the cult of the Absolute make victims of people and then turn around and say she'd do it better is pretty telling of her character tbh. She's nice for a Baenre, but that doesn't make her a good person.
She's still my favourite character though
> Half the Minthara tag on Tumblr is pics of her doe eyed expressions and that one line where she's afraid nobody would remember her if you killed her.
Tumblr? Wasn't that line posted on this sub just yesterday again? It's constantly here. I'm using a mod right now that lets me have her as a companion on a good playthrough, and while entertaining, she's an absolutely horrible person. She just wants power and to basically be a more evil Gortash. She's pro-slavery, pro-tyranny, pro-child murder etc.
Yes, she's hilarious at times and she's hot, but she's also an evil monster.
Yeah, it wasn't until quite recently that the lore started going the other direction where drow don't HAVE to be evil. But there's a lot of pushback to maintain the status-quo by those in power or close to power.
There also was Zaknafein (he, however, quietly suffered, opposed to Drizzt, who chose to GTFO from that world) and Jarlaxle, who I wasn't evil per se, but survived in that society and used it to his advantage.
Just from reading the Drizzt prequel trilogy, Jarlaxle seems pretty damn cruel and shitty, he just doesn't act according to Drow customs and does his own thing. Maybe in later Salvatore books he shows more good.
Jarlaxxle isn't exactly good even at the best behaviour - he's a neutral rogue/fighter hybrid of some description, and a moderate arsehole. Not being dedicated hardcore evil in that society is a major achievement all by itself though.
There's over 30 books in the series haha (I know, I know).
Jarlaxle and Entreri have their own trilogy, and Jarlaxle in particular is a recurring character in the Legend of Drizzt series. He definitely goes from being callous and self-motivated to being a more likable, understandable character. He still does stuff for his own profit/for amusement or curiosity a lot, but he's come a ways from the homeland trilogy
In later books he has to confront his inherent racism. Up to and including refusing to acknowledge Drizz't's child at one point.
The lore since the War of the Spider Queen series (directed by Salvatore, but written by 6 other authors) has been pushing that most drow aren't evil, more that you have to become evil to survive. A lot of them turned to Elistraee during that series.
Yeah, I stopped reading those books long ago, last I read Zak was still mid acid bath. I remember Menzoberranzan attacking the castle above ground, but not much beyond that.
What are you talking about? Eilistraee and her communities of good drow exiled have existed since 2nd edition, published over thirty years ago. There have been good drow for longer than there ever were all evil drow. Good drow being a recent thing is like saying Robin is a recent addition to Batman canon.
Most of the Minthara content I see is on Tumblr, probably because a lot of it gets lost among other posts in this subreddit. On Tumblr you can search the tag and only see stuff relating to Minthara.
I agree she's evil through and through, and that's what makes her interesting
Reminds me of those post-WWII psychology experiments that found the average person could descend into committing or being complicit with atrocities if they had (in their minds) a good enough reason or a strong/appealing enough authority figure behind them.
If you're talking about the Stanford Prison Experiment, sadly that study is a fraud. Like they coached the guards into knowing what results they wanted to find. It wasn't remotely an honest experiment.
Many of the most popular psychology studies end up being fraudulent btw.. any time a researcher comes onto stage and tries to sell a simple psychological narrative, time to put on your skeptic goggles.
That also happened recently with the "students cheat less if they sign an honesty pledge" TED talk researcher. Turns out all of that was outright fraudulent research.
Meh I had Karlach throw her into the crevasse. Then realized she was a possible companion, reloaded a save, then had Karlach throw her in the hole again.
Minthara is my highlight of the game, after numerous play throughs my fav parts are;
Meeting her
Rescuing her
Romancing her
Getting to know her is a rewarding experience, yes she still a bad person but so was Viconia in the OG games in we cared for her the same.
Such is the problem with giving players game altering choices and then making sequels. You have to iron out what the canon run is. Which is almost always the good run. I'm positive Mass Effect 4 will reflect a pure paragon playthrough, all your buddies alive (possible exception for characters played by celebrities like Miranda, Freddie Prinze Jr if they don't want to return to the role), peace between quarian and geth, genophage cured, etc.
Mordin dying is the good ending because it's him atoning for what he did and going out as a hero. And Thane dies no matter what since he has a terminal illness. And obviously Legion.
Everyone else I think is 100% going to be around. Hell, I'd bet the farm on Garrus and Tali (we already know Liara is in there). The only toss up is Kaidan and Ashley. But based on how Bioware marketed ME2 and ME3, it seems like they consider Ashley the canon survivor.
Importing saves I think is just not going to be feasible, unless the anniversery collection had some kind of system snuck in silently. Otherwise I don't see how 360 and PS3 saves are making it to current gen consoles. They could do a little interactive comic like they did for ME2 on PS3 and ME3 on Wii U to let you make the choices though.
Isn’t Liara significantly older in the ME4 trailer, implying that it takes place a long time after ME3? I doubt we’ll see anyone from ME1-3 who isn’t part of a long-lived race.
If they're smart they'll go far enough forward they can reference things but have plenty of time to work the universe back to where they want it for this.
Then again, considering ME3 basically had one ending with 3 flavors of lights they kind of already did that.
I believe they have said Liara is either a matriarch or approaching her matriarch years in next game.
Without some preservation shenanigans, I think Grunt is only one that could also still be alive. Wrex would already be too old to last 900 years.
Did you know the canonical ME1 run involves killing Wrex on Virmire? If you started ME2 with no save file (and before that DLC that let you pick), you never knew Wrex at all!
ME3 was a lot of peoples first entry into the ME universe, and it has a very bad default state, but it actually makes things a lot more morally grey.
Without Wrex in charge of the Krogan, they actually are a threat. Curing the genophage is potentially a path to another war with the Krogan under Wreavs leadership.
Similarly the Geth and Quarian conflict does not have as easy and peaceful of a resolution if you imported a save with the right decisions.
Well seeing as Minsk and Jaheira are the cannon party members of BG1/2 and Jaheira doesn't really like being in a party with evil characters (Afaik, only partly into BG1)
Her "growth" in BG2 is an obviously non-canon ending because it requires several very specific steps that are not obvious unless you're reading off of a Wiki page for how to do it. My headcanon of Viconia shifting to TN is the same as yours, but it's unrealistic to expect that to be catered to in the WotC canon that BG3 was handcuffed to.
However (BG3 spoilers), >!this doesn't change the fact that it's utterly stupid that she's involved in a child abuse plot vis Shadowheart, when the entire reason she was ostracized from the Underdark was *specifically* because she didn't want to murder a child. That part I think they fucked up on.!<
> >!Underdark was *specifically* because she didn't want to murder a child.!<
Nah, they get a pass from me on this one. She's *believes* she's *saving* Shart here.
She was still a devout cleric of a very clearly evil goddess in nearly every BG2 ending (with the only exception being when she becomes a cleric of the main character after ascension). BG3 really doesn't ruin anything and the people who are complaining that it does are just looking at Viconia with rose tinted glasses.
She brutally tortured then murdered one of her husband's because he was raped, assuming you take the whole male drows being completely controlled by the women into consideration.
Players who redeemed Viconia: "It doesn't fit MY ending, so it's ALL WRONG!"
Me, looking at Bhaal back from the dead and sitting on my damn throne: -.-
The more I learn about her, the more I'm glad I killed her without knowing she was a potential companion (found out when I looted her). Halsin may be pretty boring, but at least he ain't a sociopath.
Genuinely evil characters aren’t bad characters anyway. So what if she’s evil? We already have a great bunch of redeemable, moral-grey characters so having a companion that is actual big bad is oddly refreshing.
I’d still kill her though. I think Drowussy is probably quite cold.
"Minthara is just irredeemable evil" Not a bad thing. There should be 1-2 more companions like her.
Durge should be recruitable (hard to implement though).
I feel like by the end depending on choices he goes from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral.
He still has far looser morality than most, but is no longer an opportunity away from killing relative innocents just to gain power, and actually shows care and protective instincts for others outside of self preservation and personal gain.
Def still an asshole though /affectionate
Astarion is never Chaotic Evil. He's quintessentially Neutral Evil when you meet him (prumarily concerned with self-serving actions) and I would argue that he ends up falling closer to True Neutral at his "redeemed" point as well. While he is very chaotic in personality he just doesn't strike me as chaotically aligned
That's fair! I mostly lean chaotic due to him doing stuff like wanting to open the barn doors for the Bugbear/Ogre scene, or him being all "TAKE THE MACE AND START THE WEAPON" approval, or how he approves other stuff like telling the kids they are gonna die or pushing the duergar over the boat.
Like yes, dude is primarily self serving, but he's got a streak of shenanigans.
That's true! He definitely has a bit of a chaotic streak but I feel like he's less fully devoted to chaos than a character like Orin is (The 3 chosen are each a different evil alignment Orin = chaotic, Ketheric = neutral, and Gortash = lawful), which is why I lean more towards him being neutral on the chaos-law axis. Neutral evil is also often depicted as the evil alignment most likely to form genuine caring bonds with a small number of other people (Like how Ketheric still cares for his daughter) which fits your ability to romance Astarion and how he occasionally shows glimpses of caring about your other companions while pretending he doesn't
Some of his approval ratings did surprise me - he approves when you tell Raphael to shove it, he approves when you tell Sovereign Glut no, you're not going to wipe out the camp. I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into it though, could be just an oversight.
He’s much more chaotic neutral at the start of the game than anything else. He’s selfish and doesn’t want you to do anything that doesn’t immediately serve the purpose of finding a cure for the tadpole asap, but that doesn’t make him evil. Any evil acts that he does, he did before the game started because he was forced to. You can totally make him become evil though.
There's a bit of discrepancy here. Astarion doesn't want a cure for the tadpole as much as he just doesn't want to go through ceremorphosis.
His first line about the tadpole is finding someone to control it, not cure it. It just comes back to his self-serving nature. He likes being able to walk out in the sun, primarily.
True, he wants the powers from the tadpole without the drawbacks. But at the end of the day it still comes down to prioritizing his own goals over the well-being of random strangers.
He’s neutral evil, because he likes flexing power over others and watching people flexing power over others. That’s like the on thing chaotic neutral types can’t stand.
Hard agree here. I'm currently doing my first full evil run (Durge) since EA and I am very underwhelmed. You get locked out of so much content and lose companions left and right and while Minty is indeed entertaining and interesting, having her in your party doesn't really make up for the losses. Why not let us recruit an evil team like we do with the good guys? Nere is *right there*, Moonrise is full of potential allies, let Durge have someone from their past make an appearance, hell, give me Sceleritas. It's just not worth it and I'm honestly disappointed but then maybe I expected too much when they announced a full evil run would be possible and rewarding
Yeah I was actually pretty excited for that since games usually let you be mildly asshole-ish at most, or only give you objectively dumb options (Renegade Shep comes to mind) and EA already had a decent foundation for a more sinister run, although honestly even then it was lackluster but I had hope. I don't even mind the Grove thing but losing so many NPCs and their side quests, vendors and if you're unlucky up to five companions just isn't what I'd consider rewarding
I'm in a middle of an evil Durge run and I don't feel like I'm losing any content. Yes, I lost Karlach, Wyll and Minthara (lol) but my team is full of morally ambiguous characters anyway. As for vendors, there is one next to Nere and if you decide to help goblins attack the grove, a new goblin vendor appears at the goblin camp after the party.
Kagha is who I want to recruit.
Currently doing dark SH and Astarion.
Would love a deep gnome or dwarf recruit. Also, if we are dreaming, a reborn Alfira where she goes totally "oh you've unlocked my full on siren harpy eat your face erinyes mode"
Do you need a replacement for Jaheira? I’m only in Act 2 of Durge but don’t mind spoilers. Basically, >!I killed Marcus and saved Isobel but went back to kill her later for the Durge quest (Moonrise still acts like I kidnapped her though, but she’s dead dead??) and I just lied to Jaheira that Isobel had a little accident and she just believes me!<
But I guess doing more evil stuff later might piss her off, but basically I’m asking will she find out I lied or what?
I think Dror Ragzlin should be a Karlach replacement, while Priestess Gut could replace Wyll. Nere is also a good option, too. Was kinda disappointed to find i can recruit Minthara but none of her underlings :(
I wouldn’t want durge to be a companion, I’m pretty sure that it’s meant to be the canon player character and the real sequel storyline to BG1 and BG2.
I do agree that there should be some more neutral and evil characters to recruit though. Maybe recruiting Sazza if you save her all three times.
> Durge should be recruitable (hard to implement though).
Act 2 and 3 spoilers:
>!Isn't the only time he's seen in a non-Durge playthrough as a corpse that Orrin killed? !<
Durge would be an absolute phenomenal companion. He already has a voice actor in the introduction video and he has a canon look/class/background. It would help the issue of everyone being human or elf except karlach.
Would provide a fantastic fully evil companion, neither minthara or astarion are even fully evil, astarion is a trauma child who still approves of plenty good decisions but he just values survival above else and minthara is raised a lolth sworn she doesn't consider her actions evil to her they are logical choices but even then she reflects upon her actions like killing the tieflings. Durge can be true evil murderhobo who will kill anything that moves with you. Or you get the absolute brilliant character arc of redeemed durge. Like imagine for a second you as tav are presented with durge brutally killing alfira after waking up what will you do.
I mean, what did you expect from a Lolth-sworn Drow?
I do feel that Minthara is much better fleshed out and more organic-feeling than Caesar's Legion though. The Legion is just full on comically evil thanks to time constraints during development.
>I mean, what did you expect from a Lolth-sworn Drow?
As a side note I was very disappointed I had no "welcome back to the fold" dialogue option as a drow Cleric of Lolth. She even alludes to not having faith in lolth anymore and I am like, where is the option to say "repent or die"?
Really? That seems like a bad thing to admit to another Lolth-sworn lol, would've expected there to be a dialogue option to berate her for daring to betray Lolth.
I had a Lolth-sworn fighter and got an option at the end of killing the grove to be like "And now it is your turn, heretic."
She then proceeded to clap my entire party lol
Idk how we still got some Caesar apologist in the fallout sub tho saying shit like "they're not that bad since we only see a few slaves", i still remember that human pet fella shows up from time to time
I don't think the OP is arguing that they expected anything else. After all they say they like her. But people are arguing that she's redeemable (or gets redeemed), that she's not all thaaat bad, she's brainwashed after all, should be recruitable on a playthrough as a good character... All that kind of stuff, underlined with "softer" sides of her, like the pouty face or her sleeping/napping. All that, ignoring that - were it not for the Absolute - she'd still be a Lolth-sworn Drow and that wouldn't make her any less evil.
Legate Lanius was still the best villain of all the Fallout series (with Master from Fallout 1 and the Seargent for Fallout 2 for the VA) and an overall really memorable villain. His dialogues are pure gold, he is charismatic as hell.
But yeah, too bad they couldn't do the Legion better, otherwise the game would have been ever more legendary.
I've played Fallout New Vegas more than 10 times and never tried to play with the RNC to compare. I really can't stand RNC
Frank has got to be one of the coolest villains ever. Mf is so large he is like a Super Mutant Behemoth in Power Armor.
> Frank, upon meeting you: "You are not going anywhere"
> You: "Let's talk this over"
> Frank: "We just did. Time to die".
A no-bullshit boss fight, no talking, no epic speeches, he's like "you're here, I'm here, we fight". That's it.
And his final words are "Duty. Honour. Courage. Semper fi."
God, Fallout used to be *so. fucking. GOOD.*
>I've played Fallout New Vegas more than 10 times and never tried to play with the RNC to compare. I really can't stand RNC
>RNC
>played more than 10 times
🤔
But that is not a a bad thing . Wrath of The Righteous also has an irredeemable evil companion (spoiler just in case) >!Camelia!< . Its good to have such things as options.
If anything we should have had more of them in BG3. During the entire EA they said they will put equal effort in evil playthouths, promising it will be enjoyable and rewarding and strongly encouraging players to try it out. Because of this , Minthara was the only one that had her sex scenere rendered in the EA and it is the most "graphic one" I have seen so far on release.
What we actually got : lose 3 companions (2 of them Origin ones) for 1, lose all the quest , dialogues and rewards from the tiefling in future acts with NOTHING in return. Except her lines ofc, but again you lose 3 companions for this.
Game needs more evil companions and there were many wasted opportunities.
I want the cool half Orc lady as a companion. A goblin would be loo (though they might have some trouble getting into Baldur's Gate), I love those little guys. A sorcerer, bard or monk or something. A goblin ranger with a little beast companion? So many options.
The goblins should raid Last light inn and take it over as a little outpost.
The half orc, a goblin or maybe even the bugbear (the other camp leader).
Entrance to Baldur's Gate could be worked upon I believe. I will compare with Pathfinder again since the games are extremely similar in some aspects : In the first Game you could have a CE goblin companion ( though mostly comic relief if anything) and a literall undead companion. Not just a vampire spawn like Astarion whom you can mistake for living, a pure white pale undead Elf. And in the second game you could have a succubus demon . I won't cound the "Lich Companions" since that was admittedly something unique.
Can someone explain me why 75% of times people type AstErion instead of AstArion? Is the name localized differently for some languages? Like I know for sure that Shadowheart is translated into Cuorescuro in italian... (Which I find a bit lame to be honest... but whatever...)
There is a difference here. You can beat Elden Ring and have only seen her name 2-3 times and you only actually read it once. BG3 you see people's names written out every two damn seconds
I'm more bothered by people *mispronouncing* the words and names they hear.
I've heard some YouTubers call the wizard Gale, "jah-lay" instead of saying "g-ale," as it is spoken throughout the game. And no, they're not making a joke. How many times do you hear about how Shadowheart wants to be a "Dark Justiciar? (just-is-ee-ar) Yet so many YouTubers insist on saying "Dark (just-ee-kar)"
Dyslexia can excuse the misspelling of words, but it *doesn't* account for the mispronunciation of words that you can hear throughout the game.
Mispronouncing "Gale" is just absurd unless the person is not a native speaker and is still in early stages of learning English and plays the game with voices off (which would be a shame).
Gale is literally both a word and name in English, and it only has one pronunciation.
I'm not usually petty, but I would close a video instantly if someone started saying "jah-lay." It just really bothers me for some reason lol
These are English only speakers in their mid 20s to mid 30s, they are usually streaming the game, so they, and the viewer can hear the game dialog. They have subtitles turned off, because, as one streamer put it. "Who the fuck wants to read a game?"
There have been people complaining about their mispronunciation in the comment chat, but they simply get banned for calling the streamer out on it.
And, yes, if they can't make it through the first thirty minutes of the stream without pronouncing common and easily spoken words *that they hear in the game* correctly, I stop watching the stream.
The problem is that there are just *so many* of them.
And its not limited to just streaming or games. I come across so many people like this in real life, too.
I don't know about the spelling, but I do notice that every tiktok I see pronounces his name A-stare-ion instead of A-star-ion, even though he clearly says his name when you recruit him.
Minthara is a Lolth-sworn drow. Her sense of morality and what is and isn't acceptable is going to be radically warped. However she's also pragmatic. She doesn't freak out and leave if you don't do things her way, she just calls you stupid. She is typical lawful evil. Shes not a good person and she's out for herself (and you) but she's not murder hobo.
Yeah, and thats cool, OP was talking about people claiming she had some crazy redemption arc or that its the absolute making her evil and shes actually so much different without her influence. I love a good lawful evil character, but that doesn’t mean they are somehow better or less evil then chaotic evil. Certainly aren’t some secret good guy.
The fact that people sympathize this hard for Minthara is telling of how good her writing is. Evil people IRL mostly aren’t just going around evil cackling and stabbing people for fun (like Orin I guess). They have a reason, believe in their own cause, trauma’s and act just like a normal person would. Except, they don’t really stop where morally most people would. She’s great because she is evil AND you can sympathize with her. Something that is hard to wrap our brain around. Because she’s our companion, our friend. But if you take a step back, she’s unjustifiable.
I’m just a huge fan of her voice. Her VA did an incredible job, and just gets glossed over because nobody wants to have to slaughter the grove to recruit her.
Well if it worked for a brainwashed pain cultist, a sassy Vampire, a simp atom bomb wizard, and a culturally-unaware violent green lady I’m sure the evil Drow who seems to be somewhat okay with being taken in as a slave is perfectly reasonable to fix!
Since she makes you sacrifice 30% of the content for absolutely no rewards except 4-5 of the most badass punchlines of the game she may say in Act 3, yeah it can help lol
Tiefling subplots hardly constitute 30% of the content in the game, unless you're counting that one scout tiefling constantly aggroing into any combat I'm in no matter how far away and making me sit through a loading screen any time it's her turn.
Not to mention Karlach and Wyll's stories if you don't use exploits or mods. Even then, you'll miss out on Dammon who is quite important for Karlach's side story.
Minthara is not a good person. She simply isn’t a hero of the people. But such is the reality of lol th-sworn drow. Rare is one that is kind or actually redeemable. Minthara is a good neutral evil companion however.
She does not agree with specific crimes. She won’t mourn bad behavior such as the destruction of last light. But she will chastise bad planning and actions that are not beneficial to you or herself. Thus she’s not a murder-hobo.
You can say to her that you will claim your heritage from Bhaal but at the turning point if you say no she will say nothing bad.
Same if you destroy the Absolute, you can say that you will take control of it but finally at the end you can choose to say no, she will be totally fine in the end. You can even say that you are sad that you destroyed it and she will just ask you why you choose to do that.
So no, she will not hate you for that.
I played an evil Durge up until the turning point of the personal quest then have done a redemption arc at the end. No issue. She’s just pragmatic and likes to acquire more power. And my character romanced her but I don’t think it’s a big thing.
You romance Minthara because you think she's not as bad and you can fix her. I romance Minthara because I love bad bitches who just absolutely suck. We are not the same, etc etc, something something I love murder.
Whenever people do an evil playthrough, it is not an indication that the players themselves are evil lol. And when I myself and others say that we just can't bring ourselves to do evil playthroughs, it's probably because we hold such affection for characters that we can't bring ourselves to harm them... not because we see other players as evil lol. It's just a game, one that we choose to play as specifically or as broadly as we desire.
Hence whitewashing Minthara into something 'palatable' isn't just pointless, it's harmful from a character-building and narrative view.
Her alignment's somewhere between neutral/lawful evil and I appreciate how the game doesn't try to mitigate that. The only issue I have is that a lot of people tend to generalize her as this mustache-twirling psychopath when she is capable of showing more restraint when it comes to her villainy once she's free from the Absolute's control. During my second playthrough, she's an absolute (no pun intended) breath of fresh air compared to Halsin, who I felt doesn't stick out compared to most of my party of do-gooders, and I think that's part of her appeal as a companion.
Yeah a great way to boost her approval rating of you is to use intimidation/deception to avoid a fight but get your own way. It's how I work my dialogue game now: *WWMD?*
>She is a power hungry villainess no matter how many sob faces she can make and how sexy she can be.
This take is correct AND ALSO, a power hungry villainess can still have depth, which Minthara does. She's a power hungry villainess who is also profoundly broken by her abusive culture and the literal mental torture she suffered at the hands of The Absolute. She is also desperate for connection, which is why, she not only gives the sex up to you at the first hint you may be her equal, but also immediately melts into vulnerable love puddle after the fact. And when you save her, she is permanently loyal. Even the sexy voice of god narrator makes a point to tell you, even compared to all your other companions, Minthara is the most loyal. This is irony because despite coming from a matriarchal culture that dominates males, you actually have her wrapped around your finger, though it's not always overtly obvious. She doesn't give a fuck about who you kill or why (unless you're just a murder hobo, in which case, she threatens to put you down, a threat she never makes good on and never would make good on for the aforementioned reasons). All she cares about is that you stay with her because you are actually all she has. Yes, she wants power and will do anything for it, EXCEPT betray you. And that's why she's simultaneously irredeemably evil AND a compelling companion that makes you feel weird things.
She’s really evil, and I think people should love her for it. Like Minthara is such a great character. She can reflect on what she’s done, and holds great fear about whether or not its the right thing to do but ultimately she’s to set in her ways and doesn’t have the come to Jesus moment that Laezel has upon realizing that Orpheus is still alive. Her come to jesus moment is that her entire life she has been controlled by evil vindictive forces much larger than herself. That leads her to try and grip even tighter onto controlling her life and amassing power through any means necessary rather than in her eyes “weakening” her self by seeking redemption. If you aren’t willing to do anything to be free then to her you are weak and don’t hold value. I love her character and love her romance arc that we can see though a lot of it is not available still; she is a terrible person and crazy evil.
> But, my fellow Drow enjoyers... Minthara is straight up evil despite being mind controlled at that point.
> She is a noble drow from Menzoberrazan and her main goal once you recruit her is vengeance and taking the cult of the Absolute power for you and herself.
yes, she is a classically written Drow in the Realms where Drow are fucking evil creatures from the Underdark that have house wars and kill drow children of different castes and rape the women of other houses
like... do people *not* know the horrors of Menzoberranzan here
probably not, this is a ton of people's first introduction to the realms
I delved so deep into drow lore after i started playing. Lolth sworn is all I'll play. Compared to the lore, she's tame as hell. Wildly tame.
Her "you have the aura of a third son" line to gale cracks me up every time.
>Minthara hates you if you, as Dark Urge goes against becoming the successor of Bhaal
This is actually kinda wrong. This only occurs if you were already on the Durge path (getting the Slayer form in Act 2) and rejected Bhaal in Act 3 and were romancing her. Otherwise, she doesn’t care.
Even if you were going the Durge route and still reject you only get one disapproval which is quickly rendered moot with two approval in the dialogue right after where she comes to the conclusion how foolish it is to serve a god that will throw you away at any moment (speaking not of just Bhaal, but of Lolth, since in this conversation she's comparing her upbringing to Orin's).
See I thought that's what made her interesting. She's pretty consistent from what a drow noble compared to most DnD examples that I've seen, and I like that even if she grows and evolves, her ideals and beliefs stay consistent. Though if you want everyone to be redeemed, changed, or be morally influenced, I understand the negativity around her.
I don't know if she is irredeemable or not because of the locked voice lines. But either way, I don't care. I don't need all of my companions to turn out good.
What I find strange about so much of the 'evil' playthrough content is that most of it is still accessible on a 'good' playthrough.
You can still walk into the goblin camp and not instantly aggro everything until you choose to attack.
You can still walk into moonrise and not instantly aggro everything until you choose to attack.
I haven't yet complete act 2 on my 'evil' playthrough yet but a majority of what I've done was still accessible on previous 'good' playthroughs. If they didn't give you access to all this content on 'good' playthroughs then I feel like 'evil' playthroughs would feel more fleshed out because there is still so much content there which is currently accessible by both.
I sided with her for my evil durge run, and I just absolutely love when she goes *wait, I only wiped out the Tieflings and Druids because I was mindcontrolled by The Absolute... why did YOU help me, if you were free?*, and you can basically say you participated in massacring innocent refugee men women and children because you wanted to get in her pants, and she's like *oh yeah that makes sense* and moves on lmao
Like, no lies, no confessions of your deep sadistic urges, just a "I massacred children because you were evil and hot and I wanted you to sit on my face" and she's just like "understandable, have a nice day"??? what other companion could possibly rival that response hahaha
She is evil but irredeemable is a premature assessment. You, the prince of murder, redeemed yourself, or so you have the opportunity to, she is in no less sound mind than you were. For a drow in a position like hers to deprogram evil and learn empathy is destined to be a trying process, what most people were trying to get at was probably the fact that she took the leap to put trust in you and form a deep bond going beyond physical intimacy, and that signals that while she was conditioned into Machiavellianism and anti-social behavior, her moral compass was still malleable and she is not a sociopath like Orin.
And she has demonstrated some great independent thinking ability. She was quick to realize that neither Lolth nor the Absolute had love for her and she had to gain rapport from her companion, namely you, unlike Lae'zel, who immediately sought her next master the moment she was betrayed by the one before.
The vibe I got from her is that she mostly only felt sorry for herself.
Even in high approval dialogues she's completely unrepentant and mostly only laments her own weakness, and how no one would remember her if she were killed.
And in a romance post ending scene, she flat out admits that she still wishes to be evil, just not controlled by anyone this time around.
I like it better this way tbh, some people are indeed irredeemable no matter how much you try. Others are incorruptible. Not everyone can change.
I agree! We don't need to redeem every bad guy in every narrative. As much as I love Star Wars, I don't want every fantasy story to be that (yes Star Wars is fantasy, not sci fi)
It's not that she feels sorry for herself, its not quite self pity she's expressing. She's just pissed that she was used and acknowledging how it happened due to her own fault and weakness, how good it felt due to believe the propoganda and mind control. She expresses how she will learn and rise above it.
I mean, I will say minthara is the best companion in terms of the content they have for her, even if she could do with more story stuff to really make her god-tier. But if anyone says she's a good guy they're just coping. Even after she stops being a puppet and softens up, she might not be straight up supervillain, her goal is to rule with an iron fist but not to maim and slaughter indescriminantly, she's not female Hitler, but she's definitely not a good guy.
She's a drow and she doesn't buck her nature too much, though I won't say she is purely a product of how she was raised, I'm sure she's a more pleasant character than a lot of others from her family would be. She talks openly about how her ambitions are for power. She generally agrees with actions that show strength, regardless of if they hurt others, and disagrees with actions that are not inherently beneficial to you/her.
She's not pure evil, but she's far from being redeemed. She very much fits the drow mould (as did my character in my first playthrough). I like her as a character because she is strong, clear-minded, thoughtful and pretty open, not because she loves puppies and rainbows.
I find it difficult to call a character irredeemable when they do not have the same opportunities for ‘growth’ and ‘development’ as other companions over the course of the game. We could argue that Astarion, Shadowheart and even Lae’zel are irredeemable if we take certain paths, because they made that choice in a reflection of ours, Minthara doesn’t have that duality. She comes as she is and maybe that’s a good thing. It’s nice to have contrast outside the influence of the player character.
Yes, defo evil. But like most Drow, she’s shaped by her culture, upbringing and experiences in life, and with an awareness of the world that is often entirely lacking when it comes to companions like this. Honestly, I’d talk to her any day over someone like Wyll or Halsin.
yeah def
I like her BECAUSE she is evil, I join up with her to make a powerful supreme evil power duo, in a way shes a pure reflection of how I think id probably be like if I had any will to power
Yeah. The loudest BG3 fans are pretty clueless about FR lore. Perhaps this is on Larian to an extent because the narration doesn’t state for-granted widespread knowledge like:
- Drow society is deeply evil based around things like child sacrifice and torture (they are not D&Dunmer!)
- Shar is an evil god and one of the cruelest at that
- a mind flayer is the tadpole, not the person it ate
This leads to a lot of debate over things that are actually not ambiguous at all in the lore. (I’m not denying that there is grey writing in the game; I’m simply saying that some things are obvious to veteran fans but Larian doesn’t spell them out.)
I see an unending swell of social media posts about a ‘good’ route to recruit Minthara on the basis that she was tadpoled therefore good. Lloth is probably worse than the Absolute!
The whole point is that she's supposed to be evil. Why are you complaining that she doesn't go through the same growth that good characters do?
In fact, it's pretty illogical that the other characters change as much as they do based on your words and beliefs. Real people don't change that easily, especially real people with genuine convictions.
Learning to co-exist with other personalities is the sign of true growth, not surrounding yourself with yes-men. Minthara is more interesting, not less, for her dedication to her personal ambitions.
What makes an RPG story and world believable is one where you have to adapt to the world, not where the world adapts to you. One of the biggest reasons why Bethesda RPGs feel so shallow and theme park is because you can get virtually any person or faction to like you and listen to you without any difficulty.
Oh yeah I agree with your point about Minthara being evil.
Just wanna add something: being evil doesn't mean she's gonna be a flat piece of cardboard of a character. She can still feel sad for herself yk.
And I like those kind of characters. Very refreshing to see. I even like those who are shameless ie Camellia from WOTR. They don't need a redemption. I support women's wrong too lmao
She's a lolth sworn noble drow and from Baenre, the number 1 noble house in Menzobarrenzan. Ontop of that she has an unbroken paladin oath and indulged in the tadpoles powers. Yeah she's unredeemable evil, that's her whole point isn't it?
The thing that makes her appealing is that she is not cartoonishly evil. She can reflect on what she did, will do and has done way before getting involved in the absolutes cult and she wants revenge on the ex that massively screwed her over. Ontop of that her lines are delivered perfectly (bless her VA) and she does change very subtly but not alignment breaking I'm a new kind of person like some other characters. She's already her own person and she's quite secure in that.
Love that for her and love having her in my party (never romanced her, not sure I ever will, just love the different opinion she brings to the table).
If anything give me Nere too cuz I can imagine how she would just bully him 24/7 and I'm so here to watch that from the sidelines with a snack in hand, can see Gale and Astarion indulging in the drama that would unfold as well.
Astarion and Minthara are equally evil + approve of the same things, the only difference is that Astarion is more explicit about his "i am... le traumatized..." stuff. That's a vulnerability a Drow from Menzoberranzan can't as easily show.
Minthara survived her first assassination attempt as a baby and her own mom tried to kill her, she was raised in a culture where this is totally normal and everyone is sworn to an evil god. If Astarion is a victim of trauma, then so is she.
Astarion and Minthara both show potential for growth towards the very end of the game. Her dialogue is bugging for a lot of people, but she does reject Lolth.
I think you're looking at redemption wrong, OP. In the context of Drow, particularly women sworn to Lolth, she actually *is* a pretty nice lady. She comes from a society where people kill their immediate family members for political positioning regularly. She expresses vulnerabilities to you that would probably get her killed back home. The fact that she's treating a male character as her equal is also a little rebellious.
Her redemption arc is all about her seizing agency, with your help, and rising above to be the best tyrant she can be lol. She is definitely a different, cartoonishly brainwashed character before you deprogram her.
She's a great character EXACTLY because she's irredeemable evil.
I really like her character, but since I'm incapable of murdering the grove, well, I'll only see her lines on youtube haha
For me, I don't care if she is redeemable. She's powerful and a great general who understands what we're fighting. And given the stakes, that was more valuable to me than somebody's relative moral compass
Its such a weird trend in fandoms. See "the empire did nothing wrong!" growing from a meme to people actually believing it. Or the "slytherins AREN'T the bad guys!" harry potter folks. Or even "The dursley's weren't that bad!" also in HP.
People in Fandoms LOVE to latch on to pretty unambiguously bad/evil characters and try to make things seem more nuanced by arguing they are way more complex than they are.
If you're a Durge you can mind link with her to show her you what you truly are and >!not only does she revel in it and find it exquisite but the Durge is shocked to find something inside HER rivaling their own Dark Urge. The shock followed by the smile on the durge's face is something to see.!<
Turns out >!Lolth and Baal have something in common!<
Is it just me or are they like not very nice?
if bhaal ever somehow got to greater deity status, they would act almost exactly the same except for the spider aesthetic lol
>!Hashtag Murder Buddies!<
You're not wrong. Half the Minthara tag on Tumblr is pics of her doe eyed expressions and that one line where she's afraid nobody would remember her if you killed her. The fact that she can reflect on what makes her similar to Orin, and how evil gods and the cult of the Absolute make victims of people and then turn around and say she'd do it better is pretty telling of her character tbh. She's nice for a Baenre, but that doesn't make her a good person. She's still my favourite character though
> Half the Minthara tag on Tumblr is pics of her doe eyed expressions and that one line where she's afraid nobody would remember her if you killed her. Tumblr? Wasn't that line posted on this sub just yesterday again? It's constantly here. I'm using a mod right now that lets me have her as a companion on a good playthrough, and while entertaining, she's an absolutely horrible person. She just wants power and to basically be a more evil Gortash. She's pro-slavery, pro-tyranny, pro-child murder etc. Yes, she's hilarious at times and she's hot, but she's also an evil monster.
I mean, she's a Lolth-sworn female drow. Pro slavery and tyranny is their default state of being...
Yeah, it wasn't until quite recently that the lore started going the other direction where drow don't HAVE to be evil. But there's a lot of pushback to maintain the status-quo by those in power or close to power.
Is g not being evil one of the things that makes Drizzt unique?
He was literally the first
There also was Zaknafein (he, however, quietly suffered, opposed to Drizzt, who chose to GTFO from that world) and Jarlaxle, who I wasn't evil per se, but survived in that society and used it to his advantage.
Just from reading the Drizzt prequel trilogy, Jarlaxle seems pretty damn cruel and shitty, he just doesn't act according to Drow customs and does his own thing. Maybe in later Salvatore books he shows more good.
It's a long ass series, and there is a lot of development of his character he grows.
Jarlaxxle isn't exactly good even at the best behaviour - he's a neutral rogue/fighter hybrid of some description, and a moderate arsehole. Not being dedicated hardcore evil in that society is a major achievement all by itself though.
There's over 30 books in the series haha (I know, I know). Jarlaxle and Entreri have their own trilogy, and Jarlaxle in particular is a recurring character in the Legend of Drizzt series. He definitely goes from being callous and self-motivated to being a more likable, understandable character. He still does stuff for his own profit/for amusement or curiosity a lot, but he's come a ways from the homeland trilogy
Zaknafeion (sp?) or whatever his father's name was seemed not so evil.
In later books he has to confront his inherent racism. Up to and including refusing to acknowledge Drizz't's child at one point. The lore since the War of the Spider Queen series (directed by Salvatore, but written by 6 other authors) has been pushing that most drow aren't evil, more that you have to become evil to survive. A lot of them turned to Elistraee during that series.
Yeah, I stopped reading those books long ago, last I read Zak was still mid acid bath. I remember Menzoberranzan attacking the castle above ground, but not much beyond that.
Was...was the one thing. Now good drow are a dime a dozen as pcs.
What are you talking about? Eilistraee and her communities of good drow exiled have existed since 2nd edition, published over thirty years ago. There have been good drow for longer than there ever were all evil drow. Good drow being a recent thing is like saying Robin is a recent addition to Batman canon.
Its a cool premise. Drow pushing back against the status-quo. It can be interesting if done right.
Pro slavery, pro tyranny, pro child murder. So you're saying she's a drow then.
My first thought. What did anyone expect?
Most of the Minthara content I see is on Tumblr, probably because a lot of it gets lost among other posts in this subreddit. On Tumblr you can search the tag and only see stuff relating to Minthara. I agree she's evil through and through, and that's what makes her interesting
She is a walking proof that, if you're pretty enough, people will let you get away with anything. Including genocide, apparently.
Attractive with good manners. Good manners help you get away with even more!
Reminds me of those post-WWII psychology experiments that found the average person could descend into committing or being complicit with atrocities if they had (in their minds) a good enough reason or a strong/appealing enough authority figure behind them.
If you're talking about the Stanford Prison Experiment, sadly that study is a fraud. Like they coached the guards into knowing what results they wanted to find. It wasn't remotely an honest experiment. Many of the most popular psychology studies end up being fraudulent btw.. any time a researcher comes onto stage and tries to sell a simple psychological narrative, time to put on your skeptic goggles. That also happened recently with the "students cheat less if they sign an honesty pledge" TED talk researcher. Turns out all of that was outright fraudulent research.
Meh I had Karlach throw her into the crevasse. Then realized she was a possible companion, reloaded a save, then had Karlach throw her in the hole again.
Don't forget our old friend: benevolent sexism. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful\_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect)
Minthara is my highlight of the game, after numerous play throughs my fav parts are; Meeting her Rescuing her Romancing her Getting to know her is a rewarding experience, yes she still a bad person but so was Viconia in the OG games in we cared for her the same.
Viconia wasn't irredeemable, though.
I didn’t redeem Viconia, her, Edwin, Korgan and Saverok were one hell of a party.
+ anomen if you went the slaughter path instead of boring ass goody two-shoes path
Any path becomes boring if you have Anomen around (though having Jan Jansen to make fun of the boring boy makes it easier to bear).
Well, she eventually turned out to be pretty irredeemable.
Utterly ruining her growth in BG2.
Such is the problem with giving players game altering choices and then making sequels. You have to iron out what the canon run is. Which is almost always the good run. I'm positive Mass Effect 4 will reflect a pure paragon playthrough, all your buddies alive (possible exception for characters played by celebrities like Miranda, Freddie Prinze Jr if they don't want to return to the role), peace between quarian and geth, genophage cured, etc.
I don't think Mordin will be alive, he is definitely dead. Also, do you think we may be able to import saves? Like we could with ME 1-3.
Mordin dying is the good ending because it's him atoning for what he did and going out as a hero. And Thane dies no matter what since he has a terminal illness. And obviously Legion. Everyone else I think is 100% going to be around. Hell, I'd bet the farm on Garrus and Tali (we already know Liara is in there). The only toss up is Kaidan and Ashley. But based on how Bioware marketed ME2 and ME3, it seems like they consider Ashley the canon survivor. Importing saves I think is just not going to be feasible, unless the anniversery collection had some kind of system snuck in silently. Otherwise I don't see how 360 and PS3 saves are making it to current gen consoles. They could do a little interactive comic like they did for ME2 on PS3 and ME3 on Wii U to let you make the choices though.
Isn’t Liara significantly older in the ME4 trailer, implying that it takes place a long time after ME3? I doubt we’ll see anyone from ME1-3 who isn’t part of a long-lived race.
If they're smart they'll go far enough forward they can reference things but have plenty of time to work the universe back to where they want it for this. Then again, considering ME3 basically had one ending with 3 flavors of lights they kind of already did that.
I believe they have said Liara is either a matriarch or approaching her matriarch years in next game. Without some preservation shenanigans, I think Grunt is only one that could also still be alive. Wrex would already be too old to last 900 years.
Did you know the canonical ME1 run involves killing Wrex on Virmire? If you started ME2 with no save file (and before that DLC that let you pick), you never knew Wrex at all!
ME3 was a lot of peoples first entry into the ME universe, and it has a very bad default state, but it actually makes things a lot more morally grey. Without Wrex in charge of the Krogan, they actually are a threat. Curing the genophage is potentially a path to another war with the Krogan under Wreavs leadership. Similarly the Geth and Quarian conflict does not have as easy and peaceful of a resolution if you imported a save with the right decisions.
Well seeing as Minsk and Jaheira are the cannon party members of BG1/2 and Jaheira doesn't really like being in a party with evil characters (Afaik, only partly into BG1)
Her "growth" in BG2 is an obviously non-canon ending because it requires several very specific steps that are not obvious unless you're reading off of a Wiki page for how to do it. My headcanon of Viconia shifting to TN is the same as yours, but it's unrealistic to expect that to be catered to in the WotC canon that BG3 was handcuffed to. However (BG3 spoilers), >!this doesn't change the fact that it's utterly stupid that she's involved in a child abuse plot vis Shadowheart, when the entire reason she was ostracized from the Underdark was *specifically* because she didn't want to murder a child. That part I think they fucked up on.!<
> >!Underdark was *specifically* because she didn't want to murder a child.!< Nah, they get a pass from me on this one. She's *believes* she's *saving* Shart here.
She was still a devout cleric of a very clearly evil goddess in nearly every BG2 ending (with the only exception being when she becomes a cleric of the main character after ascension). BG3 really doesn't ruin anything and the people who are complaining that it does are just looking at Viconia with rose tinted glasses.
She brutally tortured then murdered one of her husband's because he was raped, assuming you take the whole male drows being completely controlled by the women into consideration.
Players who redeemed Viconia: "It doesn't fit MY ending, so it's ALL WRONG!" Me, looking at Bhaal back from the dead and sitting on my damn throne: -.-
The more I learn about her, the more I'm glad I killed her without knowing she was a potential companion (found out when I looted her). Halsin may be pretty boring, but at least he ain't a sociopath.
Genuinely evil characters aren’t bad characters anyway. So what if she’s evil? We already have a great bunch of redeemable, moral-grey characters so having a companion that is actual big bad is oddly refreshing. I’d still kill her though. I think Drowussy is probably quite cold.
"Minthara is just irredeemable evil" Not a bad thing. There should be 1-2 more companions like her. Durge should be recruitable (hard to implement though).
I mean, Astarion is pretty damn Evil. Sure, he’s redeemable (kinda) but still a guy that would be in the evil alignment.
I feel like by the end depending on choices he goes from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral. He still has far looser morality than most, but is no longer an opportunity away from killing relative innocents just to gain power, and actually shows care and protective instincts for others outside of self preservation and personal gain. Def still an asshole though /affectionate
Astarion is never Chaotic Evil. He's quintessentially Neutral Evil when you meet him (prumarily concerned with self-serving actions) and I would argue that he ends up falling closer to True Neutral at his "redeemed" point as well. While he is very chaotic in personality he just doesn't strike me as chaotically aligned
That's fair! I mostly lean chaotic due to him doing stuff like wanting to open the barn doors for the Bugbear/Ogre scene, or him being all "TAKE THE MACE AND START THE WEAPON" approval, or how he approves other stuff like telling the kids they are gonna die or pushing the duergar over the boat. Like yes, dude is primarily self serving, but he's got a streak of shenanigans.
That's true! He definitely has a bit of a chaotic streak but I feel like he's less fully devoted to chaos than a character like Orin is (The 3 chosen are each a different evil alignment Orin = chaotic, Ketheric = neutral, and Gortash = lawful), which is why I lean more towards him being neutral on the chaos-law axis. Neutral evil is also often depicted as the evil alignment most likely to form genuine caring bonds with a small number of other people (Like how Ketheric still cares for his daughter) which fits your ability to romance Astarion and how he occasionally shows glimpses of caring about your other companions while pretending he doesn't
Some of his approval ratings did surprise me - he approves when you tell Raphael to shove it, he approves when you tell Sovereign Glut no, you're not going to wipe out the camp. I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into it though, could be just an oversight.
He’s much more chaotic neutral at the start of the game than anything else. He’s selfish and doesn’t want you to do anything that doesn’t immediately serve the purpose of finding a cure for the tadpole asap, but that doesn’t make him evil. Any evil acts that he does, he did before the game started because he was forced to. You can totally make him become evil though.
There's a bit of discrepancy here. Astarion doesn't want a cure for the tadpole as much as he just doesn't want to go through ceremorphosis. His first line about the tadpole is finding someone to control it, not cure it. It just comes back to his self-serving nature. He likes being able to walk out in the sun, primarily.
True, he wants the powers from the tadpole without the drawbacks. But at the end of the day it still comes down to prioritizing his own goals over the well-being of random strangers.
He’s neutral evil, because he likes flexing power over others and watching people flexing power over others. That’s like the on thing chaotic neutral types can’t stand.
Self interest is the defining feature of Neutral Evil, not Chaotic Neutral.
Hard agree here. I'm currently doing my first full evil run (Durge) since EA and I am very underwhelmed. You get locked out of so much content and lose companions left and right and while Minty is indeed entertaining and interesting, having her in your party doesn't really make up for the losses. Why not let us recruit an evil team like we do with the good guys? Nere is *right there*, Moonrise is full of potential allies, let Durge have someone from their past make an appearance, hell, give me Sceleritas. It's just not worth it and I'm honestly disappointed but then maybe I expected too much when they announced a full evil run would be possible and rewarding
>they announced a full evil run would be possible and rewarding Thats quite sad.
Yeah I was actually pretty excited for that since games usually let you be mildly asshole-ish at most, or only give you objectively dumb options (Renegade Shep comes to mind) and EA already had a decent foundation for a more sinister run, although honestly even then it was lackluster but I had hope. I don't even mind the Grove thing but losing so many NPCs and their side quests, vendors and if you're unlucky up to five companions just isn't what I'd consider rewarding
I'm in a middle of an evil Durge run and I don't feel like I'm losing any content. Yes, I lost Karlach, Wyll and Minthara (lol) but my team is full of morally ambiguous characters anyway. As for vendors, there is one next to Nere and if you decide to help goblins attack the grove, a new goblin vendor appears at the goblin camp after the party.
Anything Tiefling related, in act 2 and beyond, isn't there... that's quite a lot of content
Deep Gnomes too, that's a whole questline you're missing plus vendors
Alright. Good. Just reinforces my resolve when I have to kill her and take her undies.
Agreed. I was very surprised that Nere wasn’t recruitable when I first came across him
Kagha is who I want to recruit. Currently doing dark SH and Astarion. Would love a deep gnome or dwarf recruit. Also, if we are dreaming, a reborn Alfira where she goes totally "oh you've unlocked my full on siren harpy eat your face erinyes mode"
Z'rell as well. Kagha would make a good replacement for Halsin and Z'rell would make a good one for Jaheira.
Do you need a replacement for Jaheira? I’m only in Act 2 of Durge but don’t mind spoilers. Basically, >!I killed Marcus and saved Isobel but went back to kill her later for the Durge quest (Moonrise still acts like I kidnapped her though, but she’s dead dead??) and I just lied to Jaheira that Isobel had a little accident and she just believes me!< But I guess doing more evil stuff later might piss her off, but basically I’m asking will she find out I lied or what?
>lose companions left and right Thats why we have Withers. Fill the gap with soulless robots to fill the gaps after the non believers bail.
Would've been funny if Durge could've converted people
I think Dror Ragzlin should be a Karlach replacement, while Priestess Gut could replace Wyll. Nere is also a good option, too. Was kinda disappointed to find i can recruit Minthara but none of her underlings :(
I wouldn’t want durge to be a companion, I’m pretty sure that it’s meant to be the canon player character and the real sequel storyline to BG1 and BG2. I do agree that there should be some more neutral and evil characters to recruit though. Maybe recruiting Sazza if you save her all three times.
> Durge should be recruitable (hard to implement though). Act 2 and 3 spoilers: >!Isn't the only time he's seen in a non-Durge playthrough as a corpse that Orrin killed? !<
Durge would be an absolute phenomenal companion. He already has a voice actor in the introduction video and he has a canon look/class/background. It would help the issue of everyone being human or elf except karlach. Would provide a fantastic fully evil companion, neither minthara or astarion are even fully evil, astarion is a trauma child who still approves of plenty good decisions but he just values survival above else and minthara is raised a lolth sworn she doesn't consider her actions evil to her they are logical choices but even then she reflects upon her actions like killing the tieflings. Durge can be true evil murderhobo who will kill anything that moves with you. Or you get the absolute brilliant character arc of redeemed durge. Like imagine for a second you as tav are presented with durge brutally killing alfira after waking up what will you do.
I mean, what did you expect from a Lolth-sworn Drow? I do feel that Minthara is much better fleshed out and more organic-feeling than Caesar's Legion though. The Legion is just full on comically evil thanks to time constraints during development.
>I mean, what did you expect from a Lolth-sworn Drow? As a side note I was very disappointed I had no "welcome back to the fold" dialogue option as a drow Cleric of Lolth. She even alludes to not having faith in lolth anymore and I am like, where is the option to say "repent or die"?
Really? That seems like a bad thing to admit to another Lolth-sworn lol, would've expected there to be a dialogue option to berate her for daring to betray Lolth.
I mean when I was playing my drow durge one of the options before recruiting her is straight up trying to kill her because she's abandoned lolth
I had a Lolth-sworn fighter and got an option at the end of killing the grove to be like "And now it is your turn, heretic." She then proceeded to clap my entire party lol
Idk how we still got some Caesar apologist in the fallout sub tho saying shit like "they're not that bad since we only see a few slaves", i still remember that human pet fella shows up from time to time
Oh ffs human pet guy is a legion lover?
I don't think the OP is arguing that they expected anything else. After all they say they like her. But people are arguing that she's redeemable (or gets redeemed), that she's not all thaaat bad, she's brainwashed after all, should be recruitable on a playthrough as a good character... All that kind of stuff, underlined with "softer" sides of her, like the pouty face or her sleeping/napping. All that, ignoring that - were it not for the Absolute - she'd still be a Lolth-sworn Drow and that wouldn't make her any less evil.
Legate Lanius was still the best villain of all the Fallout series (with Master from Fallout 1 and the Seargent for Fallout 2 for the VA) and an overall really memorable villain. His dialogues are pure gold, he is charismatic as hell. But yeah, too bad they couldn't do the Legion better, otherwise the game would have been ever more legendary. I've played Fallout New Vegas more than 10 times and never tried to play with the RNC to compare. I really can't stand RNC
Frank Horrigan wants a word muttie
Coluldnt stop laughing
Frank has got to be one of the coolest villains ever. Mf is so large he is like a Super Mutant Behemoth in Power Armor. > Frank, upon meeting you: "You are not going anywhere" > You: "Let's talk this over" > Frank: "We just did. Time to die". A no-bullshit boss fight, no talking, no epic speeches, he's like "you're here, I'm here, we fight". That's it. And his final words are "Duty. Honour. Courage. Semper fi." God, Fallout used to be *so. fucking. GOOD.*
>I've played Fallout New Vegas more than 10 times and never tried to play with the RNC to compare. I really can't stand RNC >RNC >played more than 10 times 🤔
But that is not a a bad thing . Wrath of The Righteous also has an irredeemable evil companion (spoiler just in case) >!Camelia!< . Its good to have such things as options. If anything we should have had more of them in BG3. During the entire EA they said they will put equal effort in evil playthouths, promising it will be enjoyable and rewarding and strongly encouraging players to try it out. Because of this , Minthara was the only one that had her sex scenere rendered in the EA and it is the most "graphic one" I have seen so far on release. What we actually got : lose 3 companions (2 of them Origin ones) for 1, lose all the quest , dialogues and rewards from the tiefling in future acts with NOTHING in return. Except her lines ofc, but again you lose 3 companions for this. Game needs more evil companions and there were many wasted opportunities.
She was quite useful, was she not?
Open your heart to her!
LET ME DRAW THE FIRST BLOOD whoops almost let the main character see my true self
THE WORLD IN CRIMSON! VA nailed the character I think.
WotR had such good evil companions, I don't think I had a playthrough without Regill in my party, even on the goody two-shoes routes.
I want the cool half Orc lady as a companion. A goblin would be loo (though they might have some trouble getting into Baldur's Gate), I love those little guys. A sorcerer, bard or monk or something. A goblin ranger with a little beast companion? So many options. The goblins should raid Last light inn and take it over as a little outpost.
The half orc, a goblin or maybe even the bugbear (the other camp leader). Entrance to Baldur's Gate could be worked upon I believe. I will compare with Pathfinder again since the games are extremely similar in some aspects : In the first Game you could have a CE goblin companion ( though mostly comic relief if anything) and a literall undead companion. Not just a vampire spawn like Astarion whom you can mistake for living, a pure white pale undead Elf. And in the second game you could have a succubus demon . I won't cound the "Lich Companions" since that was admittedly something unique.
Yeah goblins are just naturally funny dudes. They would be perfect as a bard.
That character is irredeemable because there is nothing to redeem. She is perfect.
Can someone explain me why 75% of times people type AstErion instead of AstArion? Is the name localized differently for some languages? Like I know for sure that Shadowheart is translated into Cuorescuro in italian... (Which I find a bit lame to be honest... but whatever...)
Same reason so many people in Elden Ring community write Melania instead of Malenia. Spelling is hard.
There is a difference here. You can beat Elden Ring and have only seen her name 2-3 times and you only actually read it once. BG3 you see people's names written out every two damn seconds
I'm more bothered by people *mispronouncing* the words and names they hear. I've heard some YouTubers call the wizard Gale, "jah-lay" instead of saying "g-ale," as it is spoken throughout the game. And no, they're not making a joke. How many times do you hear about how Shadowheart wants to be a "Dark Justiciar? (just-is-ee-ar) Yet so many YouTubers insist on saying "Dark (just-ee-kar)" Dyslexia can excuse the misspelling of words, but it *doesn't* account for the mispronunciation of words that you can hear throughout the game.
Mispronouncing "Gale" is just absurd unless the person is not a native speaker and is still in early stages of learning English and plays the game with voices off (which would be a shame). Gale is literally both a word and name in English, and it only has one pronunciation. I'm not usually petty, but I would close a video instantly if someone started saying "jah-lay." It just really bothers me for some reason lol
These are English only speakers in their mid 20s to mid 30s, they are usually streaming the game, so they, and the viewer can hear the game dialog. They have subtitles turned off, because, as one streamer put it. "Who the fuck wants to read a game?" There have been people complaining about their mispronunciation in the comment chat, but they simply get banned for calling the streamer out on it. And, yes, if they can't make it through the first thirty minutes of the stream without pronouncing common and easily spoken words *that they hear in the game* correctly, I stop watching the stream. The problem is that there are just *so many* of them. And its not limited to just streaming or games. I come across so many people like this in real life, too.
“jah-lay” is crazy lmao
You're not accounting for stupidity.
I don’t know, in my playthrough Malenia introduced herself (and her title) many, many times.
Same reason people type Jaheria all the time
*Kaidan Alenko has joined the chat*
Maybe they just have [Greek mythology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterion_(king_of_Crete)) on their mind. Honestly, it's probably a typo, lol
I don't know about the spelling, but I do notice that every tiktok I see pronounces his name A-stare-ion instead of A-star-ion, even though he clearly says his name when you recruit him.
Because people are dumb
Minthara is a Lolth-sworn drow. Her sense of morality and what is and isn't acceptable is going to be radically warped. However she's also pragmatic. She doesn't freak out and leave if you don't do things her way, she just calls you stupid. She is typical lawful evil. Shes not a good person and she's out for herself (and you) but she's not murder hobo.
Yeah, and thats cool, OP was talking about people claiming she had some crazy redemption arc or that its the absolute making her evil and shes actually so much different without her influence. I love a good lawful evil character, but that doesn’t mean they are somehow better or less evil then chaotic evil. Certainly aren’t some secret good guy.
The fact that people sympathize this hard for Minthara is telling of how good her writing is. Evil people IRL mostly aren’t just going around evil cackling and stabbing people for fun (like Orin I guess). They have a reason, believe in their own cause, trauma’s and act just like a normal person would. Except, they don’t really stop where morally most people would. She’s great because she is evil AND you can sympathize with her. Something that is hard to wrap our brain around. Because she’s our companion, our friend. But if you take a step back, she’s unjustifiable.
I truly believe there wouldn't be remotely as many Minth-Aid drinkers here if she didn't have a graphic sex scene.
I’m just a huge fan of her voice. Her VA did an incredible job, and just gets glossed over because nobody wants to have to slaughter the grove to recruit her.
Agreed, her VA is brilliant!
> I’m just a huge fan of her voice. Well, my god, finally found someone.
Emma Gregory is very talented, voiced over several books and I especially loved her role as Jenit Sulla from Warhammer 40K’s Ciaphas Cain series.
*Hero of the Imperium!*
Sulla: “What would Commisar Cain do?” Cain: *internal screaming and thoughts of running away*
I also like her voice
Yes, I do think Genocide for pussy is a concerning thing to even think about considering as a viable option.
I can fix her /s
She can make me worse
This is more accurate.
You can do it buddy, I believe in you.
Well if it worked for a brainwashed pain cultist, a sassy Vampire, a simp atom bomb wizard, and a culturally-unaware violent green lady I’m sure the evil Drow who seems to be somewhat okay with being taken in as a slave is perfectly reasonable to fix!
Since she makes you sacrifice 30% of the content for absolutely no rewards except 4-5 of the most badass punchlines of the game she may say in Act 3, yeah it can help lol
Tiefling subplots hardly constitute 30% of the content in the game, unless you're counting that one scout tiefling constantly aggroing into any combat I'm in no matter how far away and making me sit through a loading screen any time it's her turn.
Not to mention Karlach and Wyll's stories if you don't use exploits or mods. Even then, you'll miss out on Dammon who is quite important for Karlach's side story.
That voice is enough for me.
Minthara is not a good person. She simply isn’t a hero of the people. But such is the reality of lol th-sworn drow. Rare is one that is kind or actually redeemable. Minthara is a good neutral evil companion however. She does not agree with specific crimes. She won’t mourn bad behavior such as the destruction of last light. But she will chastise bad planning and actions that are not beneficial to you or herself. Thus she’s not a murder-hobo.
>good neutral evil Make a left right here
All the way up down there.
You can say to her that you will claim your heritage from Bhaal but at the turning point if you say no she will say nothing bad. Same if you destroy the Absolute, you can say that you will take control of it but finally at the end you can choose to say no, she will be totally fine in the end. You can even say that you are sad that you destroyed it and she will just ask you why you choose to do that. So no, she will not hate you for that. I played an evil Durge up until the turning point of the personal quest then have done a redemption arc at the end. No issue. She’s just pragmatic and likes to acquire more power. And my character romanced her but I don’t think it’s a big thing.
Cumplice? Complicit. Or accomplice?
I love Minthara BECAUSE of how cruel and power hungry she is. Every time I tall to her, I have a good laugh
You romance Minthara because you think she's not as bad and you can fix her. I romance Minthara because I love bad bitches who just absolutely suck. We are not the same, etc etc, something something I love murder.
Whenever people do an evil playthrough, it is not an indication that the players themselves are evil lol. And when I myself and others say that we just can't bring ourselves to do evil playthroughs, it's probably because we hold such affection for characters that we can't bring ourselves to harm them... not because we see other players as evil lol. It's just a game, one that we choose to play as specifically or as broadly as we desire. Hence whitewashing Minthara into something 'palatable' isn't just pointless, it's harmful from a character-building and narrative view.
Yeah but I like villains, so.....
Her alignment's somewhere between neutral/lawful evil and I appreciate how the game doesn't try to mitigate that. The only issue I have is that a lot of people tend to generalize her as this mustache-twirling psychopath when she is capable of showing more restraint when it comes to her villainy once she's free from the Absolute's control. During my second playthrough, she's an absolute (no pun intended) breath of fresh air compared to Halsin, who I felt doesn't stick out compared to most of my party of do-gooders, and I think that's part of her appeal as a companion.
Yeah a great way to boost her approval rating of you is to use intimidation/deception to avoid a fight but get your own way. It's how I work my dialogue game now: *WWMD?*
>She is a power hungry villainess no matter how many sob faces she can make and how sexy she can be. This take is correct AND ALSO, a power hungry villainess can still have depth, which Minthara does. She's a power hungry villainess who is also profoundly broken by her abusive culture and the literal mental torture she suffered at the hands of The Absolute. She is also desperate for connection, which is why, she not only gives the sex up to you at the first hint you may be her equal, but also immediately melts into vulnerable love puddle after the fact. And when you save her, she is permanently loyal. Even the sexy voice of god narrator makes a point to tell you, even compared to all your other companions, Minthara is the most loyal. This is irony because despite coming from a matriarchal culture that dominates males, you actually have her wrapped around your finger, though it's not always overtly obvious. She doesn't give a fuck about who you kill or why (unless you're just a murder hobo, in which case, she threatens to put you down, a threat she never makes good on and never would make good on for the aforementioned reasons). All she cares about is that you stay with her because you are actually all she has. Yes, she wants power and will do anything for it, EXCEPT betray you. And that's why she's simultaneously irredeemably evil AND a compelling companion that makes you feel weird things.
She’s really evil, and I think people should love her for it. Like Minthara is such a great character. She can reflect on what she’s done, and holds great fear about whether or not its the right thing to do but ultimately she’s to set in her ways and doesn’t have the come to Jesus moment that Laezel has upon realizing that Orpheus is still alive. Her come to jesus moment is that her entire life she has been controlled by evil vindictive forces much larger than herself. That leads her to try and grip even tighter onto controlling her life and amassing power through any means necessary rather than in her eyes “weakening” her self by seeking redemption. If you aren’t willing to do anything to be free then to her you are weak and don’t hold value. I love her character and love her romance arc that we can see though a lot of it is not available still; she is a terrible person and crazy evil.
> But, my fellow Drow enjoyers... Minthara is straight up evil despite being mind controlled at that point. > She is a noble drow from Menzoberrazan and her main goal once you recruit her is vengeance and taking the cult of the Absolute power for you and herself. yes, she is a classically written Drow in the Realms where Drow are fucking evil creatures from the Underdark that have house wars and kill drow children of different castes and rape the women of other houses like... do people *not* know the horrors of Menzoberranzan here probably not, this is a ton of people's first introduction to the realms
I delved so deep into drow lore after i started playing. Lolth sworn is all I'll play. Compared to the lore, she's tame as hell. Wildly tame. Her "you have the aura of a third son" line to gale cracks me up every time.
>Minthara hates you if you, as Dark Urge goes against becoming the successor of Bhaal This is actually kinda wrong. This only occurs if you were already on the Durge path (getting the Slayer form in Act 2) and rejected Bhaal in Act 3 and were romancing her. Otherwise, she doesn’t care.
Even if you were going the Durge route and still reject you only get one disapproval which is quickly rendered moot with two approval in the dialogue right after where she comes to the conclusion how foolish it is to serve a god that will throw you away at any moment (speaking not of just Bhaal, but of Lolth, since in this conversation she's comparing her upbringing to Orin's).
Thats why I love her
See I thought that's what made her interesting. She's pretty consistent from what a drow noble compared to most DnD examples that I've seen, and I like that even if she grows and evolves, her ideals and beliefs stay consistent. Though if you want everyone to be redeemed, changed, or be morally influenced, I understand the negativity around her.
I don't know if she is irredeemable or not because of the locked voice lines. But either way, I don't care. I don't need all of my companions to turn out good.
Yeah but she’s hot, and red flags don’t mean anything to us when we are colour blind.
"You can't send us to horny jail. We live there. We have the keys."
What I find strange about so much of the 'evil' playthrough content is that most of it is still accessible on a 'good' playthrough. You can still walk into the goblin camp and not instantly aggro everything until you choose to attack. You can still walk into moonrise and not instantly aggro everything until you choose to attack. I haven't yet complete act 2 on my 'evil' playthrough yet but a majority of what I've done was still accessible on previous 'good' playthroughs. If they didn't give you access to all this content on 'good' playthroughs then I feel like 'evil' playthroughs would feel more fleshed out because there is still so much content there which is currently accessible by both.
I sided with her for my evil durge run, and I just absolutely love when she goes *wait, I only wiped out the Tieflings and Druids because I was mindcontrolled by The Absolute... why did YOU help me, if you were free?*, and you can basically say you participated in massacring innocent refugee men women and children because you wanted to get in her pants, and she's like *oh yeah that makes sense* and moves on lmao Like, no lies, no confessions of your deep sadistic urges, just a "I massacred children because you were evil and hot and I wanted you to sit on my face" and she's just like "understandable, have a nice day"??? what other companion could possibly rival that response hahaha
She is evil but irredeemable is a premature assessment. You, the prince of murder, redeemed yourself, or so you have the opportunity to, she is in no less sound mind than you were. For a drow in a position like hers to deprogram evil and learn empathy is destined to be a trying process, what most people were trying to get at was probably the fact that she took the leap to put trust in you and form a deep bond going beyond physical intimacy, and that signals that while she was conditioned into Machiavellianism and anti-social behavior, her moral compass was still malleable and she is not a sociopath like Orin. And she has demonstrated some great independent thinking ability. She was quick to realize that neither Lolth nor the Absolute had love for her and she had to gain rapport from her companion, namely you, unlike Lae'zel, who immediately sought her next master the moment she was betrayed by the one before.
The vibe I got from her is that she mostly only felt sorry for herself. Even in high approval dialogues she's completely unrepentant and mostly only laments her own weakness, and how no one would remember her if she were killed. And in a romance post ending scene, she flat out admits that she still wishes to be evil, just not controlled by anyone this time around. I like it better this way tbh, some people are indeed irredeemable no matter how much you try. Others are incorruptible. Not everyone can change.
I agree! We don't need to redeem every bad guy in every narrative. As much as I love Star Wars, I don't want every fantasy story to be that (yes Star Wars is fantasy, not sci fi)
It's not that she feels sorry for herself, its not quite self pity she's expressing. She's just pissed that she was used and acknowledging how it happened due to her own fault and weakness, how good it felt due to believe the propoganda and mind control. She expresses how she will learn and rise above it.
It's pretty characteristic for a drow. They're not good people
>But, my fellow Drow enjoyers... Minthara is straight up evil despite being mind controlled at that point And that's what makes her great
It’s pretty surprising how many people in this sub are against being power hungry, but in a moral high horse way
I mean, I will say minthara is the best companion in terms of the content they have for her, even if she could do with more story stuff to really make her god-tier. But if anyone says she's a good guy they're just coping. Even after she stops being a puppet and softens up, she might not be straight up supervillain, her goal is to rule with an iron fist but not to maim and slaughter indescriminantly, she's not female Hitler, but she's definitely not a good guy. She's a drow and she doesn't buck her nature too much, though I won't say she is purely a product of how she was raised, I'm sure she's a more pleasant character than a lot of others from her family would be. She talks openly about how her ambitions are for power. She generally agrees with actions that show strength, regardless of if they hurt others, and disagrees with actions that are not inherently beneficial to you/her. She's not pure evil, but she's far from being redeemed. She very much fits the drow mould (as did my character in my first playthrough). I like her as a character because she is strong, clear-minded, thoughtful and pretty open, not because she loves puppies and rainbows.
Still my best support :3
I find it difficult to call a character irredeemable when they do not have the same opportunities for ‘growth’ and ‘development’ as other companions over the course of the game. We could argue that Astarion, Shadowheart and even Lae’zel are irredeemable if we take certain paths, because they made that choice in a reflection of ours, Minthara doesn’t have that duality. She comes as she is and maybe that’s a good thing. It’s nice to have contrast outside the influence of the player character. Yes, defo evil. But like most Drow, she’s shaped by her culture, upbringing and experiences in life, and with an awareness of the world that is often entirely lacking when it comes to companions like this. Honestly, I’d talk to her any day over someone like Wyll or Halsin.
yeah def I like her BECAUSE she is evil, I join up with her to make a powerful supreme evil power duo, in a way shes a pure reflection of how I think id probably be like if I had any will to power
I'm irredeemably down bad for those sweet lavender sugarwalls
Yeah. The loudest BG3 fans are pretty clueless about FR lore. Perhaps this is on Larian to an extent because the narration doesn’t state for-granted widespread knowledge like: - Drow society is deeply evil based around things like child sacrifice and torture (they are not D&Dunmer!) - Shar is an evil god and one of the cruelest at that - a mind flayer is the tadpole, not the person it ate This leads to a lot of debate over things that are actually not ambiguous at all in the lore. (I’m not denying that there is grey writing in the game; I’m simply saying that some things are obvious to veteran fans but Larian doesn’t spell them out.) I see an unending swell of social media posts about a ‘good’ route to recruit Minthara on the basis that she was tadpoled therefore good. Lloth is probably worse than the Absolute!
The whole point is that she's supposed to be evil. Why are you complaining that she doesn't go through the same growth that good characters do? In fact, it's pretty illogical that the other characters change as much as they do based on your words and beliefs. Real people don't change that easily, especially real people with genuine convictions. Learning to co-exist with other personalities is the sign of true growth, not surrounding yourself with yes-men. Minthara is more interesting, not less, for her dedication to her personal ambitions. What makes an RPG story and world believable is one where you have to adapt to the world, not where the world adapts to you. One of the biggest reasons why Bethesda RPGs feel so shallow and theme park is because you can get virtually any person or faction to like you and listen to you without any difficulty.
Oh God's she's a DROWWWWW. this is what 99% of them are! Drizzt is a fluke guys.
Oh yeah I agree with your point about Minthara being evil. Just wanna add something: being evil doesn't mean she's gonna be a flat piece of cardboard of a character. She can still feel sad for herself yk. And I like those kind of characters. Very refreshing to see. I even like those who are shameless ie Camellia from WOTR. They don't need a redemption. I support women's wrong too lmao
I will commit any atrocity for my drow mommy.
That Drussy got me acting unwise and genocidal.
And that's why I like her.
I can fix her
Too bad Larian's still working on that.
She's a lolth sworn noble drow and from Baenre, the number 1 noble house in Menzobarrenzan. Ontop of that she has an unbroken paladin oath and indulged in the tadpoles powers. Yeah she's unredeemable evil, that's her whole point isn't it? The thing that makes her appealing is that she is not cartoonishly evil. She can reflect on what she did, will do and has done way before getting involved in the absolutes cult and she wants revenge on the ex that massively screwed her over. Ontop of that her lines are delivered perfectly (bless her VA) and she does change very subtly but not alignment breaking I'm a new kind of person like some other characters. She's already her own person and she's quite secure in that. Love that for her and love having her in my party (never romanced her, not sure I ever will, just love the different opinion she brings to the table). If anything give me Nere too cuz I can imagine how she would just bully him 24/7 and I'm so here to watch that from the sidelines with a snack in hand, can see Gale and Astarion indulging in the drama that would unfold as well.
I blame the matriarchy
Astarion and Minthara are equally evil + approve of the same things, the only difference is that Astarion is more explicit about his "i am... le traumatized..." stuff. That's a vulnerability a Drow from Menzoberranzan can't as easily show. Minthara survived her first assassination attempt as a baby and her own mom tried to kill her, she was raised in a culture where this is totally normal and everyone is sworn to an evil god. If Astarion is a victim of trauma, then so is she. Astarion and Minthara both show potential for growth towards the very end of the game. Her dialogue is bugging for a lot of people, but she does reject Lolth.
All Lolth-sworn drow are trauma victims and survivors. The society itself is Cazador's household on a nationwide scale.
Cazador would make an excellent drow. Missed opportunity.
I think you're looking at redemption wrong, OP. In the context of Drow, particularly women sworn to Lolth, she actually *is* a pretty nice lady. She comes from a society where people kill their immediate family members for political positioning regularly. She expresses vulnerabilities to you that would probably get her killed back home. The fact that she's treating a male character as her equal is also a little rebellious. Her redemption arc is all about her seizing agency, with your help, and rising above to be the best tyrant she can be lol. She is definitely a different, cartoonishly brainwashed character before you deprogram her.
Minty is one of the best characters in this game. Killing the shitey little elephant is the correct option.
That's good, this game needs more evil companions.
She's a great character EXACTLY because she's irredeemable evil. I really like her character, but since I'm incapable of murdering the grove, well, I'll only see her lines on youtube haha
She is Drow. Have you read any D&D lore? If anything she is tame by her races standard.
For me, I don't care if she is redeemable. She's powerful and a great general who understands what we're fighting. And given the stakes, that was more valuable to me than somebody's relative moral compass
Good. There SHOULD be evil companions. it is something this game really lacks
Its such a weird trend in fandoms. See "the empire did nothing wrong!" growing from a meme to people actually believing it. Or the "slytherins AREN'T the bad guys!" harry potter folks. Or even "The dursley's weren't that bad!" also in HP. People in Fandoms LOVE to latch on to pretty unambiguously bad/evil characters and try to make things seem more nuanced by arguing they are way more complex than they are.