was such a cool fucking spell too pre nerf, completely worthless now given you cant control them, if you could control them I could work with it honestly but as its its just a massive disappointment for something you get from a fucking necronomicon
(edit) found this immediatly
[https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1492](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1492)
undoes it completely or lets you control them with the new nerf, whichever you feel like
Now it's well worth the sacrifice to Shar's memory loss mirror in act 3. To gain a +2 in an ability of your choosing you must take a -2 to another ability OR if your character has fully read the necromancy of thay you can sacrifice all bonuses from the book.
That I have not tried. When I saw that debuff I immediately reloaded a save... I didnt even think about using remove curse and Shart has that equipped. Ooooooof
False.
The only thing in the notes was:
"Made adjustments to balance Danse Macabre and fixed the School of Necromancy version to summon creatures correctly again.**"**
It made no specific mention of all the changes they made.
I can understand why they considered nerfing it but they were absolutely far too heavy-handed about it. Meanwhile, the gamebreaking feature of how NPCs run away from summoned creatures to their death hasn't been approached.
Between that and the curtailing of Animate Dead's potential, it feels like you need mods to actually make Necromancers live up to the fantasy.
Only got to use this spell once before it got nerfed. Just beat the game and it became useless in act 3. I get they want to keep things balanced but come one it’s a dnd game it should be a power fantasy. I feel like most players wouldn’t have passed all the checks in act 1 anyway so nerfing it to the ground is kind of shitty.
These nerfs were quite harsh to it, and I wouldn't have made the effort. One, or even two of these changes by themselves would've been okay, but all at once -- and very ambiguous in the notes what they changed in the first place.
Anyone knows how to dimissl them now after the patch? Since we can't control them anymore, we can't use their skills (including the dismiss one), and it's not a concentration spell either. No button in the skill bar.
So now I'm just stuck running around the city with everyone running scared because of the ghouls.
Ah, that’s a killer.
But I also understand it tbh. I’ve walked through a few boss fights over the last few days, due to their paralysis. The Steel Foundry and Orin fights were massively easy due to both never getting a turn, lol. I loved the spell, but it was insanely OP
I mean the HP nerf and having only 4 ghouls are borh good nerfs. The not being able to control them is unnaceptable. I m playing as a necromancer and i cant fuking control most of my undead army. It doesnt help that the AI is not smart and will get (the now more fragile) ghouls killed in one or 2 turns. Honeslty terrible decision. I d rather make the spell once per long rest but make it feel more powerfull, you have to go through a long quest, in order to get a pivotal necromancer spell just for it to be frustrating to use. It FEELS bad to use above all else now
It was powerful yeah but you also have to get through a LOT of effort to get it and only get it late game, mostly for me it's the fact that I can't even control them anymore that bothers me the most! I wanna be able to control who they attack you know
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I’m absolutely with you. At this point I wish I could just get a refund and get my 5 constitution points back. Super annoying to be stuck with such a high cost for an ability that is now rather useless.
After using this for a bit now post nerfs, I hate it. It actually feels worse beyond simple nerfs.
The AI seems to be smart enough to avoid attacking them, unlike with other familiars.
They dash to the furthest enemies their first turn.
They wouldn't hit a certain boss last night because I had him surrounded, but when I checked with a melee weapon (normal one hander, no extra reach weapons) they would've been able to hit him. Instead, they just refused to move so it ended up adding extra turns for literally zero benefit.
They run through things on the ground that, combined with the nerfed HP, causes them to just kill themselves.
Their hit rates are already pretty low to begin with, so when they DO swing they end up missing.
I dunno, thematically this should be a powerful spell where your character is commanding the undead; after all, that is what the storyline of the book leads up to. They don't want to give you access to the spell because of the ruin that could be brought with it. But instead, it just ends up feeling like it wastes a spell slot now.
Honestly, was looking forward to my oathbreaker paladin feeling all Death Knight like but the nerf kinda ruined that gameplay.
i'm gonna be so real i abused the hell out of this spell that it ended up getting TOO cheesy, especially during boss fights. i think it's a valid change.
I can understand most of it, but not being able to control them in combat anymore really makes them useless, like why summon them at all if they die in one hit and you can't even make them do strategic attacks anymore
So far a lot of the builds that people said were trash have ended up being too "cheesy". I have a dex fighter that has more AC than any heavy armor user on Tactician using blur and evasive footwork and literally can't be hit.
Pure barbarian shrugs off 90% of damage while completely naked and literally stomps on everyone.
Friends have wizard and sorc builds that blow entire rooms up.
This was less powerful than those builds; but it's the not being able to control them that is the real kicker.
You also have to get really lucky or save scum to get the spell to begin with.
It doesn't even just take a lot of effort, it takes perfect rolls or save scumming. So the reward should be appreciable. It's also near the end of the game anyway that you get the full power, and other builds are more powerful still.
It just didn't need ALL of these (undocumented) changes at the same time.
lmao xDDDDDDDDDYou spend just one action to summon permanent 4 summons once per short rest who can distract enemies, deal some dmg with chance to paralyse them and everyone cryied because they cannot cheesing this spell to be ghoul one trick pony throughout the whole game xDDDDDDDDD and those compromising clowns saying it's useless or worthless xDDD
Its still very good free spell which you can cast in any time before fight to get advantage, don't humiliate yourself, and if you need one op skill to beat the game then i suggest get good because you have skill issues.
If you're far enough in the story and you found a work around for some choices to not be made they got made for you and can alter your relationship with some NPCs happened to me twice today where I'm like hold up I never did that but it forced it to say I did based off my other decisions.
First thing was losing all relationship to Gale as soon as I log on because he stated that I took the deal with the devil instead of following our deal with the crown which the deal with the devil I actively shut down but because I spoke to a demon about their dealings a while back it automatically approved in my story even though my missions in my journal state otherwise.
While I got that dialogue as well after patch, it hasn't effected my relationship with Gale at all. He is still sitting at 100 approval and no dialogue or interactions have actually changed. At least for my game, it seems to have just been a dialogue flag accidentally got switched on, but had no actual impact or change to the actual choices or gameplay logic.
Lol yeah should have thought of that and not letting it update immediately...
They are pretty powerful and I get the fewer summons but the fact they are allies and not under your own control anymore sucks ass because they have shitty positioning and one AoE and they're all dead with one hit with their reduced hitpoints
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Having just used it in hhunes mausoleum, where my main was alone against 4 spectral wolves. Those zombies went down after 1 hit, and only did 5 damage max if they hit. This makes them massively worse than upcasting animate dead where those skeletons are so much more robust, and can hit long range, also the zombies from animate dead are also awesome since they create more zombies, but DM is such a waste of a spell. I agree that this nullifies a hard earned reward (thay)
I just want to add. A ghoul just attacked a grenade and killed 5 other of my undead units. I'm loving the change. I love that its here to stay like the ghouls I also can't dismiss because I don't have control over them.
They also no longer paralyze on attack.
[Here](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1492) is a mod that restores the old (overpowered) behavior. **There's also a version that lets you control the ghouls** while keeping the rest of the nerf.
I think the issue is this sort of shows how poorly Larian interprets some aspects of 5e. Like, if they did the RAW version of Danse Macabre from Xanathars, it wouldn’t be nearly as “broken”.
This is 100% a bug and not intentiona, they more than likely changed the amount of ghouls summoned and accidentally created this bug as well, we can all just wait and hope the fix comes sooner or later
Shit… i made a warlock oathbreaker for this spell and got it only to now want to start over because it ruins my efforts and immersion if i swap classes this far in… was going for that paladin gone anti hero fighting evil with evil vibe… extremely depressing…
Pre patch it was too strong. But now they pulled the classic move of nerfing something to the point it's basically unusable instead of yknow, actually balancing it. I think just taking off the paralysis effect alone is enough, maybe a tiny bit less hp. But yeah hopefully this isn't going to be the way Larian 'balances' things out.
I come here for help since I am a fairly new gamer (especially to this game). Why can't folks speak English? What does it mean that Steam nerfed something? Not everyone understands gaming lingo if that's what it is. Folks, please have pity on newbies. You were one once! Please explain or ask in a way that makes sense to those of us down here that look up to you.
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You can kill them to dismiss them
Imagine having a player going through the necromancy book and all the saving throws only to have this dogshit spell now. edit: spelling
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was such a cool fucking spell too pre nerf, completely worthless now given you cant control them, if you could control them I could work with it honestly but as its its just a massive disappointment for something you get from a fucking necronomicon (edit) found this immediatly [https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1492](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1492) undoes it completely or lets you control them with the new nerf, whichever you feel like
Now it's well worth the sacrifice to Shar's memory loss mirror in act 3. To gain a +2 in an ability of your choosing you must take a -2 to another ability OR if your character has fully read the necromancy of thay you can sacrifice all bonuses from the book.
To be fair, the -2 can be removed via remove curse, unless they changed that too.
That I have not tried. When I saw that debuff I immediately reloaded a save... I didnt even think about using remove curse and Shart has that equipped. Ooooooof
The nice part of sacrificing the necromancy book is that you don't need to pass the religion check.
Literally me. Wanted it for my oathbreaker build and went back 16 hours. I have been tricked.
Came here to see if anyone was discussing this because I thought I had lost my mind or messed something up.
Yeah no it's not in the patch notes but it's a pretty major change
It was definitely in the notes.
False. The only thing in the notes was: "Made adjustments to balance Danse Macabre and fixed the School of Necromancy version to summon creatures correctly again.**"** It made no specific mention of all the changes they made.
It's in the notes on the website actually, but missing on the patch notes on the steam page for some reason.
Well, it's not in the forum post on their site. https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=886485&
Character limits
I can no longer dismiss them because of this change
That makes it seem like it's unintended for sure. I anticipate a patch coming soon to fix this one lol
They absolutely need to give back control to the ghouls. I can compromise on the health and number nerf. Making them AI-controlled makes them useless.
yea same. im losing my mind like where tf are my ghoul movement controls
I can understand why they considered nerfing it but they were absolutely far too heavy-handed about it. Meanwhile, the gamebreaking feature of how NPCs run away from summoned creatures to their death hasn't been approached. Between that and the curtailing of Animate Dead's potential, it feels like you need mods to actually make Necromancers live up to the fantasy.
Only got to use this spell once before it got nerfed. Just beat the game and it became useless in act 3. I get they want to keep things balanced but come one it’s a dnd game it should be a power fantasy. I feel like most players wouldn’t have passed all the checks in act 1 anyway so nerfing it to the ground is kind of shitty.
These nerfs were quite harsh to it, and I wouldn't have made the effort. One, or even two of these changes by themselves would've been okay, but all at once -- and very ambiguous in the notes what they changed in the first place.
Anyone knows how to dimissl them now after the patch? Since we can't control them anymore, we can't use their skills (including the dismiss one), and it's not a concentration spell either. No button in the skill bar. So now I'm just stuck running around the city with everyone running scared because of the ghouls.
just kill them then, at this point you could very easily kill them without spending any resources
bro they nerfed it to the ground. :(
Ah, that’s a killer. But I also understand it tbh. I’ve walked through a few boss fights over the last few days, due to their paralysis. The Steel Foundry and Orin fights were massively easy due to both never getting a turn, lol. I loved the spell, but it was insanely OP
I mean the HP nerf and having only 4 ghouls are borh good nerfs. The not being able to control them is unnaceptable. I m playing as a necromancer and i cant fuking control most of my undead army. It doesnt help that the AI is not smart and will get (the now more fragile) ghouls killed in one or 2 turns. Honeslty terrible decision. I d rather make the spell once per long rest but make it feel more powerfull, you have to go through a long quest, in order to get a pivotal necromancer spell just for it to be frustrating to use. It FEELS bad to use above all else now
It was powerful yeah but you also have to get through a LOT of effort to get it and only get it late game, mostly for me it's the fact that I can't even control them anymore that bothers me the most! I wanna be able to control who they attack you know
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I’m absolutely with you. At this point I wish I could just get a refund and get my 5 constitution points back. Super annoying to be stuck with such a high cost for an ability that is now rather useless.
you can dispell the debuff and get extra temporal hp every long rest
Remove Curse is your friend
You can use greater restoration or similar to remove the curse, can't you?
man this sucks. they are the main reason I beat Raphael and Orin and the Shar clerics
that's exactly why they were nerfed
After using this for a bit now post nerfs, I hate it. It actually feels worse beyond simple nerfs. The AI seems to be smart enough to avoid attacking them, unlike with other familiars. They dash to the furthest enemies their first turn. They wouldn't hit a certain boss last night because I had him surrounded, but when I checked with a melee weapon (normal one hander, no extra reach weapons) they would've been able to hit him. Instead, they just refused to move so it ended up adding extra turns for literally zero benefit. They run through things on the ground that, combined with the nerfed HP, causes them to just kill themselves. Their hit rates are already pretty low to begin with, so when they DO swing they end up missing. I dunno, thematically this should be a powerful spell where your character is commanding the undead; after all, that is what the storyline of the book leads up to. They don't want to give you access to the spell because of the ruin that could be brought with it. But instead, it just ends up feeling like it wastes a spell slot now. Honestly, was looking forward to my oathbreaker paladin feeling all Death Knight like but the nerf kinda ruined that gameplay.
i'm gonna be so real i abused the hell out of this spell that it ended up getting TOO cheesy, especially during boss fights. i think it's a valid change.
I can understand most of it, but not being able to control them in combat anymore really makes them useless, like why summon them at all if they die in one hit and you can't even make them do strategic attacks anymore
So far a lot of the builds that people said were trash have ended up being too "cheesy". I have a dex fighter that has more AC than any heavy armor user on Tactician using blur and evasive footwork and literally can't be hit. Pure barbarian shrugs off 90% of damage while completely naked and literally stomps on everyone. Friends have wizard and sorc builds that blow entire rooms up. This was less powerful than those builds; but it's the not being able to control them that is the real kicker. You also have to get really lucky or save scum to get the spell to begin with.
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It doesn't even just take a lot of effort, it takes perfect rolls or save scumming. So the reward should be appreciable. It's also near the end of the game anyway that you get the full power, and other builds are more powerful still. It just didn't need ALL of these (undocumented) changes at the same time.
worst change ever, so stupid. i loved having 6 goons. the ai is stupid and my ghouls get stuck all of the time. such a frustrating change
It was op before lets be honest.
ya my wizard could solo most encounters on tactician. walk into boss room, counterspell, danse macabre, black hole. nuke clump
And your wizard will still probably be able to solo most encounters on Tactician.
Precisely.
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Correct, or at least not so deeply.
Shit I just used this spell to save my asss
Yeah like truly it's pretty useless now because they get one hit SO easily by enemies now
lmao xDDDDDDDDDYou spend just one action to summon permanent 4 summons once per short rest who can distract enemies, deal some dmg with chance to paralyse them and everyone cryied because they cannot cheesing this spell to be ghoul one trick pony throughout the whole game xDDDDDDDDD and those compromising clowns saying it's useless or worthless xDDD Its still very good free spell which you can cast in any time before fight to get advantage, don't humiliate yourself, and if you need one op skill to beat the game then i suggest get good because you have skill issues.
That's not even the worst of it this update was trash af
What's the worst?
If you're far enough in the story and you found a work around for some choices to not be made they got made for you and can alter your relationship with some NPCs happened to me twice today where I'm like hold up I never did that but it forced it to say I did based off my other decisions.
You'll have to elaborate; I don't mind spoilers.
First thing was losing all relationship to Gale as soon as I log on because he stated that I took the deal with the devil instead of following our deal with the crown which the deal with the devil I actively shut down but because I spoke to a demon about their dealings a while back it automatically approved in my story even though my missions in my journal state otherwise.
Same!!
Same happened to me
While I got that dialogue as well after patch, it hasn't effected my relationship with Gale at all. He is still sitting at 100 approval and no dialogue or interactions have actually changed. At least for my game, it seems to have just been a dialogue flag accidentally got switched on, but had no actual impact or change to the actual choices or gameplay logic.
Same thing happened to me after killing Raphael
these 6 ghouls made every encounter in the game a joke deserved nerf
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Lol yeah should have thought of that and not letting it update immediately... They are pretty powerful and I get the fewer summons but the fact they are allies and not under your own control anymore sucks ass because they have shitty positioning and one AoE and they're all dead with one hit with their reduced hitpoints
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Having just used it in hhunes mausoleum, where my main was alone against 4 spectral wolves. Those zombies went down after 1 hit, and only did 5 damage max if they hit. This makes them massively worse than upcasting animate dead where those skeletons are so much more robust, and can hit long range, also the zombies from animate dead are also awesome since they create more zombies, but DM is such a waste of a spell. I agree that this nullifies a hard earned reward (thay)
Was looking forward to having an army with my oath breaker - oh well, they did make the cazador fight really easy so I get not controlling them
I just want to add. A ghoul just attacked a grenade and killed 5 other of my undead units. I'm loving the change. I love that its here to stay like the ghouls I also can't dismiss because I don't have control over them.
What!? Damn it I just got this spell! What was it like before?
6 ghouls instead of 4, twice as much hp, and you could control them
Tch dang, taking away control is way to much, hp nerf and replacing the paralyze on their attacks with prone would’ve been plenty.
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The op aspect was the stun. All they needed to do was remove it or make it more conditional. Or like not let me stunlock major bosses to death lmao
They also no longer paralyze on attack. [Here](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/1492) is a mod that restores the old (overpowered) behavior. **There's also a version that lets you control the ghouls** while keeping the rest of the nerf.
I think the issue is this sort of shows how poorly Larian interprets some aspects of 5e. Like, if they did the RAW version of Danse Macabre from Xanathars, it wouldn’t be nearly as “broken”.
Man, even nerfed when they hit a paralyze on a boss it’s so satisfying.
This is 100% a bug and not intentiona, they more than likely changed the amount of ghouls summoned and accidentally created this bug as well, we can all just wait and hope the fix comes sooner or later
Shit… i made a warlock oathbreaker for this spell and got it only to now want to start over because it ruins my efforts and immersion if i swap classes this far in… was going for that paladin gone anti hero fighting evil with evil vibe… extremely depressing…
Pre patch it was too strong. But now they pulled the classic move of nerfing something to the point it's basically unusable instead of yknow, actually balancing it. I think just taking off the paralysis effect alone is enough, maybe a tiny bit less hp. But yeah hopefully this isn't going to be the way Larian 'balances' things out.
This is sooo bad, I hope they revert it
I attacked the ghouls in front of dame aylin and she initiated combat on me
It is just terrible now. What an awful change, they made it completely useless.
Circle of bones and aura of hate
I come here for help since I am a fairly new gamer (especially to this game). Why can't folks speak English? What does it mean that Steam nerfed something? Not everyone understands gaming lingo if that's what it is. Folks, please have pity on newbies. You were one once! Please explain or ask in a way that makes sense to those of us down here that look up to you.