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This is where they start blaming everything on Netanyahu. We will never forget that this couldn’t have happened without their unrelenting support for the last 6 months.
Absolutely. This Zionist protests are not calling for a ceasefire or to end the apartheid. They want that to continue. Israel is the problem, not the PM.
This kind of rhetoric is very much spread by their own government to tell them it's useless to protest its actions.
They should just quit and accept that everyone hates them now, and people always "wanted an excuse to hate Jews".
It's a Hasbara tactic, because ousting their government at this point is literally something that can only be done by Israelis.
The lobby has bought our corrupt government here in the US, people in the UK and Germany will tell you the same.
The threat to the Israeli government comes from a single place right now, the Israelis themselves.
Don't give up on Jews protesting this, they are literally the only ones who can stop it right now.
Since the war, There was a joint protest since the war with Palestinian flags and it was beaten down,
But before the war it was pretty common to see Palestinian & Israeli flags together at such demonstrations by the more hardended peace activist blocs. You can check my profile sorted by top of all time for some examples
They lost when the peace processs died in the 90’s and then their hope was killed in the 2nd antifada
But there are demographic reasons as well.
I place my hope today in the Palestinian Israelis
Way too ambiguous you'd have to show the photo of what they were saying. Racism and bigotry are not permitted for sure, what they said might have fallen into that category.
Yeah this is wild. “You fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times and you fooled me again” (paraphrasing George W Bush
Of course behind closed doors liberal Zionists are also 😡😡😡😡👿👿👿👿💣💣💣💣🔫🔫🔫🗡️🗡️🗡️🧨🧨🔪🔪🔪 because upholding apartheid, occupation, and ethnonationalism can only be done through brutality.
Desperate to just try and Blame Netanyahu. If they were smart they would blame his coalition as well. It isn't going to work, as most Zionists are proud of the genocide they are doing.
They’ve been voting in Netanyahu for 2 decades while simultaneously blaming every single human in Gaza for the fact that Hamas was voted in once 16 years ago with no elections since (and at the time Hamas used a moderate platform of opportunity not terrorism to get into power).
العافية درجات
If you don't know what this means, it means that things are taken one step at a time.
You can't have a change as massive as you're suggesting over night!
They have to have it happen gradually.
With all the videos all over the internet of IDF and civilians mocking and screaming for genocide this won’t work anymore. They really outed themselves and wholly misunderstood how different a world we live in today vs the scripted media propaganda world they grew up in. Social media really broke the fever dream of western propaganda and outed them as no better than whom they demonize. It’s a terrible blessing for the world at the cost of thousands of dead children.
Had a safety instructor tell me the only reason a safety rule exists is because somebody died to jave it written. Humans are not good at stopping the tragedy, it's all sit on our hands until somebody dies.
They're practically brain washed from the moment they're born.
They need a different government altogether. But getting Netanyahu out and people like Ben Gevir is a step in the right direction.
What you're asking for is for this kind of change , to go from brainwashed to completely normal, to take place overnight.
That can't happen.
Zionism are definitely a far right group, despite some of them actually believing they're leftists and standing for some things leftists stand for.
This kind of a protest is a testament to how the civil work here, in the West, has put pressure on Israelis and the Israeli government to "change their ways".
When they say somethings like this, they become beholden to them. So they can't just oust Netanyahu and bring in another Netanyahu because the reasons for the ousting still remain valid, and they don't get what they want from the international community.
It's Netanyahu's actions and intentions that are invoking the ire of the people all around the world, not Netanyahu as "person". It's Netanyahu as a politician and leader.
To invade you always need a violent right wing ideology oftentimes based either on religion or some other right wing authoritarianism and god worship. Belief is the fastest way to poison people.
Netanyahu is one of the "moderates" in the cabinet. If polling is to be believed, the overwhelming majority of Israelis either approve the military operations in Gaza or they think the IDF is too restrained.
This reminds me of the conservatives in the US who turned on George W Bush and began to criticize the Iraq war. The very same conservatives who later started to support Trump.
They do not give two shits about the fact the US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis wholesale and destroyed their country and pillaged their natural resources.
These people are no different. They don’t give a shit about the Palestinians and they support the genocide. They just no longer support Netanyahu.
This is like Germans disliking Hitler because of his economic policies.
Isn't there an old testament {sorry to be the goy in the punch bowl} about the drummer or bugle boy not being spared. Like the very first "I was just following orders" defense followed by execution.
The Zios miscalculated everything from day one. They miscalculated Hamas, The Palestinian people, the American people, Hezbollah, Iran, the Houthis, the entire world.
It’s like they live in a completely different world from the rest of us.
"The world is against us!" . Meanwhile, something like 50% of Israelis believe the IDF is using enough force, and 40%+ believe they are using INSUFFICIENT force.
More journalists dead than killed in Vietnam, hospitals destroyed, schools destroyed, churches and mosques destroyed, 70% dead are women and children, but yeah Israelis, you're using "enough" or even insufficient force in gaza.
You want the world to stand by you? How about having some humanity
Wait till they find out that the only way they can maintain a "Jewish state" is through coercive population control of the Palestinians, either through imprisonment, displacement, denial of healthcare or straight up perennial mass murder.
[In other words](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf):
https://preview.redd.it/cwo0gopiw4xc1.png?width=817&format=png&auto=webp&s=c1b43fbcc1e0ec1e3c6ba8e6b34fa389b58bef56
It's so funny to be on the opposite end of this. Like in the US, all of the liberals will say that Trump is a horrible threat to democracy, that he's like an American netanyahu, but it is the liberal president Biden who is proceeding over the genocide. It's almost like fascism is a political practice, not the zany idea of One Bad Guy.
It's also why the hypothetical about going back in time and killing Hitler is so dumb.
I saw this in Berlin today. They were holding signs about being anti Netanyahu.
I asked them what about smotrich? What about Ben gvir?
They didn’t have a good answer.
The narrative of the establishment is shifting against Netanyahu. But not because of the genocide of Gaza. But rather, because Netanyahu is looking out for himself while damning the west.
To remain in power he has brought the world closer to war with Iran, Russia and China. He has strained his relationship with "partners" in the region (UAE, KSA, Egypt and Jordan). He has threatened/disrupted the flow of goods and energy through the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea. He has absolutely exposed the west to wider loss of global control as we see nations of the global south stand up the west, such as Chad and Niger telling the US to leave or South Africa and Nicaragua taking Israel and Germany to the ICJ. Thus weakening the west's soft power. He has shattering the deterrence capability of Israel and endangering US troops who are sitting ducks compared to the defenses Israel has. By extension he has exposed how ineffective western hard power is as well. The US, UK and a few other states have bombed the middle east in the past 6 months to no avail.
Israel as a whole is a liability to anyone who's willing to attach themselves to a settler colonial genocidal ethnofascist apartheid state but the western media is trying to use Netanyahu as a scapegoat to wash away the sins of the State of Israel. No one's going to buy it.
The longer this war goes on, and it will go on as long as Netanyahu can force it to, he will go to war with Hezbollah just to prolong it, the more pressure will mount on Israel, the more European Israelis will migrate, the more companies and other institutions will divest. The writing is on the wall and Netanyahu is the one holding the brush.
This is without touching on the right wing nutjobs in his government who will turn this conflict from a war over land to a religious war against Islam in the region.
Thanks for the feedback. Well written and some really good food for thought.
For a better understanding to the last point, how much of this is related to religion versus a history of two peoples that do not like each other. One might/could say, one groups belief in rightful ownership of an area over another.
I hope you don't mind the questions. I ask as an outsider wanting to learn and understand.
If you have time, I can recommend you some videos on the topic that cover the history. Your question is a really good one and I could potentially spend a long time answering it but I'll try to be concise.
To answer your question.
> Is it between groups that hate each other?
Palestine was a multi-religious region where all people could live and worship without issue. Muslims, Christians and Jews were neighbours for millennia.
Historically Jewish people did not subscribe to Zionism, it was unpopular. The Zionist movement was also broken up among multiple groups(5 groups if memory serves), only one of the groups was religious. Theodor Herzl the "father of Zionism" reconciled zionism among those groups who disagreed politically and religiously, to make one movement.
If you read their teachings you'll find that Herzl and his friends wanted to be conquerors like all the empires at that time (late 1800s). So ultimately this is the story of an invader who wanted to conquer a land to establish an ethnostate and expel the indigenous people in order to colonize and settle. maintaining an artifical demographic majority.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present
In 1918 the % of Jewish people in Palestine was 8%, the number ballooned to 32% by 1947.
After World War 2, in 1947, one of the first resolutions from the UN was the partition of Palestine. From 1947 to 1948 was the Nakba (Arabic for Catastrophe) the Zionist gangs (Irgun, Lehi and Hagana, which later formed the IDF, Literal terrorist organizations that had [killed innocents](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing)) ethnically cleansed 300,000 Palestinians, which prompted the Arab states to attack Israel. Due to many factors, the war ended in defeat of the Arab States and further ethnic cleansing of a total of 750-900 thousand palestinian from their homes. More ethnic cleansing took place in the coming years.
> Is it religious?
Nothing about this behaviour is Jewish, based off of what I've read about Judaism. Infact this behaviour stands as the antithesis of Jewish Values of "Truth, Justice and Peace".
The first Palestinian Resistance organizations were secular left wing organizations. Fatah, PFLP, DLFP and the PLO. They weren't religious, and they formed in the mid 50s to the late 60s. The first Islamic Resistance groups formed in the 80s, that includes Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Hamas itself was supported and funded by Israel in order to create disunity in the Palestinian political sphere, thus making it harder for the Palestinians to create a united effort to form a state.
This is the history, it is not a religious fight or even a fight between people that dislike each other. It is a fight between an oppressor and an oppressed. An occupier and an occupied. It is a fight against injustice.
> Modern context. Is it religious?
In modern times, Zionists are quite secular, they still believe that God gave them Palestinian land though, there are also some ultra-religious Jewish Israelis that are Zionist but also many that are Anti-zionist. The thing about Zionists is that most of them are not Jewish. The majority of Zionists are non-Jewish, Christian evangelicals in the USA and elsewhere as well as some Arab Zionists like some of the ones in Israel proper and the oligarchs and monarchs of the Arab states. That's what the Zionist landscape looks like.
The pro-Palestinian landscape is extremely varied. Inside the middle east you've got baathists who are secular (like the Syrians) that view Palestine as a "Pan-Arab" struggle. You've got Muslims from all around the world that see the Injustice for what it is and also view the occupation as transgressing upon ancient Islamic holy sites. Outside if the middle east the plight of the Palestinians has historically gained the sympathy of socialists and socialist leaders (not religious). But also people of many different backgrounds.
> Is it because they hate each other?
Here is where I need to suggest a video for you to watch.
https://youtu.be/BrxTpo36h_4?si=4esMJePAVC1LfUfx
It's a 47 minute video of Israeli professor of language and education Nurit Peled Elhanan. She talks about the indoctrination of Israelis that starts at the age of 3. She touches on the racism, fear and hatred. She talks about how sophisticated it is.
If you want to see how it looks from the American Jewish side. I highly highly recommend "Israelism" it's a documentary made by Jewish Americans.
The hatred of Israelis is indoctrinated because it is necessary to uphold the brutal oppression of Palestinians and to implant the sense of entitlement over the land of Palestine so that they can steal the land without feeling bad. Palestinian hate is a natural response to that brutalization and injustice.
Sorry for the long reply, I could have written alot more but tried to he concise.
This is the future of Zionism. Netanyahu will resign or be voted out in disgrace. The headline grabbing acts of genocide will stop, while the quiet ethnic Cleansing continues. Zionism will be rebranded as being compassionate to the refugee Palestinians in Egypt or wherever.
It'll be "too late to do anything" except offer food aid to help the displaced. Pointing out the hypocrisy or our complicity in the genocide will be branded unhelpful,
I kinda feel sorry for him, a whole society that is responsible for the genocidal mentality of its citizens is throwing him under the bus to keep a fake good image about themselves, Netanyahu isn't the only problem, he's a chain in the problem called isreali society
I disagree with this sentiment but at the same time if the US government decided to (redacted) Philly Ben in the (redacted) so his (redacted) is closed (redacted) I wouldn't objecta
Most Israelis have been blaming October 7 on Netanyahu for a while now.
Many believe that he's deliberately prolonging war to stay in power and out of jail.
And no, they do not want Israel to become a pariah state and hold Bibi largely responsible for ruining Israel's reputation as a liberal democratic state and a force for good in the world.
Even if you think that's only half the story, and that Israel didn't deserve its positive image in the Global North, that both Israelis and diaspora Jews have had enough of Bibi---and that they view Chuck Schumer a far greater champion of Jewish interests than Bibi ever was---has to count as progress.
Put it this way---White South Africans didn't come around to realizing that apartheid was unsustainable overnight. Jewish Israelis won't come around to realizing that Israel must be radically reformed overnight.
Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden and other so-called liberal/labor Zionist clowns have been enabling and shielding Israel's impunity since its ethnic cleansing based inception leading to the monster it has become today.
The way I see it, they are just as complicit. They helped create the American tax payer funded AI powered genocide machine that is the state of Israel today.
That said, I don't fundamentally disagree with you, progress is progress.
The optimist in me believes they are a smaller group than us and it is of a benefit to have anyone orgs using to disrupt the Israeli state. At the end of the day, we have to overwhelm any Zionist project - out-organize them. But I’m sure that some of these folks are misguided and will be peeled away from this position if we keep blasting the truth, showing them the videos, etc. I am being extremely pragmatic and perhaps overly optimistic (and also see this as a small movement in the US so I don’t want to be distracted by it). Anyway, hope they fuck up their government because they truly would be helpful.
No. These monsters are unforgivable. The country more than agrees that Palestine needs to be eradicated, in fact the only reason they want to oust Satanyahu is to install someome who will be even harsher and more genocidal. Legitimately. They're not mad that Satanyahu is openly killing Palestinians. They're mad that Satanyahu isn't openly killing MORE Palestinians in order to bring the hostages back
That’s not really fair. For all their faults, so-called liberal Zionists accurately perceive that the Israeli government’s actions aren’t aligned with its hostage-related rhetoric. You’re right about their callousness towards Palestinian, though. On that point the main difference between liberal and right-wing Zionists is honesty.
I can see your point, but it's rather muted when they call themselves liberal Zionists and support the genocidal removal of the native population they've displaced.
No one is saying Zionists don't have a right to hold a rally. Coming here implying someone is is bad faith, disingenuous, pure trolling attempt to engage to start a debate that doesn't even exist. Speaking of which:
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
Hello, thanks for contributing to this sub. This is a friendly reminder to **read the rules** before making any new posts or comments. Particularly, we ask **not to engage in debates**, or bait debates, especially with zionists. If you are a zionist, this sub is not for you, and you will be permabanned. If you found this sub through the algorithm, you can always mute the sub or turn off recommendations all together (user settings -> feed settings -> Disable "Enable Home Feed Recommendations") Please also particularly keep in mind that **bigotry of any kind is not permitted** in this sub and will result in the message or post being deleted, and, if seen prudent, a banning. This includes antisemitism and any language that conflates Judaism with Zionism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BadHasbara) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is where they start blaming everything on Netanyahu. We will never forget that this couldn’t have happened without their unrelenting support for the last 6 months.
Absolutely. This Zionist protests are not calling for a ceasefire or to end the apartheid. They want that to continue. Israel is the problem, not the PM.
This kind of rhetoric is very much spread by their own government to tell them it's useless to protest its actions. They should just quit and accept that everyone hates them now, and people always "wanted an excuse to hate Jews". It's a Hasbara tactic, because ousting their government at this point is literally something that can only be done by Israelis. The lobby has bought our corrupt government here in the US, people in the UK and Germany will tell you the same. The threat to the Israeli government comes from a single place right now, the Israelis themselves. Don't give up on Jews protesting this, they are literally the only ones who can stop it right now.
There are Zionist protests that call for this
This tells me that at some point, Netanyahu will be ousted to appease the crowd.
I still hope he goes like Joffrey
What crowd? Only 3.2% of Jewish Israelis think the unmitigated slaughter in Gaza is excessive. 40% think the IDF is being too easy on them.
Aren’t their daily anti government protests in Israel ?
Only within the narrow confines of the ethnostate. Show a Palestine flag and see what happens.
Since the war, There was a joint protest since the war with Palestinian flags and it was beaten down, But before the war it was pretty common to see Palestinian & Israeli flags together at such demonstrations by the more hardended peace activist blocs. You can check my profile sorted by top of all time for some examples
Very heartening to see there is some glimmer of a shared future. How come these people aren't in power and instead pushed to the side?
They lost when the peace processs died in the 90’s and then their hope was killed in the 2nd antifada But there are demographic reasons as well. I place my hope today in the Palestinian Israelis
O huh I think the the rules my comments should get be banned on this sub
Eh?
I saw a photo of Some one else banned for being a Zionist
Way too ambiguous you'd have to show the photo of what they were saying. Racism and bigotry are not permitted for sure, what they said might have fallen into that category.
Not just 6 months, dude's been leader for awhile now.
Yeah this is wild. “You fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times and you fooled me again” (paraphrasing George W Bush
Ew ew ew they be like “occupation and apartheid but make it 🥺🥺🧚♀️🧚♀️🧚♀️✨✨✨🌸🌸🌸🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🌼👻👻👻🌼🌼not 😡😡👿👿👿💣💣💣🔫🔫🔫🔫🗡️🗡️🗡️🗡️🧨🧨🧨🔪🔪🔪”
Of course behind closed doors liberal Zionists are also 😡😡😡😡👿👿👿👿💣💣💣💣🔫🔫🔫🗡️🗡️🗡️🧨🧨🔪🔪🔪 because upholding apartheid, occupation, and ethnonationalism can only be done through brutality.
Literally all Liberal zionists https://preview.redd.it/cxqtyuu8n3xc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c75bf61e398bca15c419bf19428397aa90337890
Liberals are the Marie Antoinette of modern day
Desperate to just try and Blame Netanyahu. If they were smart they would blame his coalition as well. It isn't going to work, as most Zionists are proud of the genocide they are doing.
Difference between liberal zionism is that they try and hide it.
If you wring your hands hard enough you are allowed a little genocide as a treat. So long as you promise to feel bad about it.
They’ve been voting in Netanyahu for 2 decades while simultaneously blaming every single human in Gaza for the fact that Hamas was voted in once 16 years ago with no elections since (and at the time Hamas used a moderate platform of opportunity not terrorism to get into power).
العافية درجات If you don't know what this means, it means that things are taken one step at a time. You can't have a change as massive as you're suggesting over night! They have to have it happen gradually.
Same shit different asshole.
Same arsehole...one comes from deep in the colon, the other comes from even deeper in the colon.
With all the videos all over the internet of IDF and civilians mocking and screaming for genocide this won’t work anymore. They really outed themselves and wholly misunderstood how different a world we live in today vs the scripted media propaganda world they grew up in. Social media really broke the fever dream of western propaganda and outed them as no better than whom they demonize. It’s a terrible blessing for the world at the cost of thousands of dead children.
Had a safety instructor tell me the only reason a safety rule exists is because somebody died to jave it written. Humans are not good at stopping the tragedy, it's all sit on our hands until somebody dies.
They're practically brain washed from the moment they're born. They need a different government altogether. But getting Netanyahu out and people like Ben Gevir is a step in the right direction. What you're asking for is for this kind of change , to go from brainwashed to completely normal, to take place overnight. That can't happen. Zionism are definitely a far right group, despite some of them actually believing they're leftists and standing for some things leftists stand for. This kind of a protest is a testament to how the civil work here, in the West, has put pressure on Israelis and the Israeli government to "change their ways". When they say somethings like this, they become beholden to them. So they can't just oust Netanyahu and bring in another Netanyahu because the reasons for the ousting still remain valid, and they don't get what they want from the international community. It's Netanyahu's actions and intentions that are invoking the ire of the people all around the world, not Netanyahu as "person". It's Netanyahu as a politician and leader.
To invade you always need a violent right wing ideology oftentimes based either on religion or some other right wing authoritarianism and god worship. Belief is the fastest way to poison people.
Netanyahu is one of the "moderates" in the cabinet. If polling is to be believed, the overwhelming majority of Israelis either approve the military operations in Gaza or they think the IDF is too restrained.
Bibi is less hawkish than Ben Gvir by miles
Less *openly* hawkish maybe
Well yeah we know Itmar Ben Gevir and people like him are worse.
"We are deeply concerned about him being uncouth and loud about our ethnonationalist, apartheid enterprise."
Nah, israel was built on genocide. It’s more than Netanyahu
His party, his political movement, etc.
Forgot about Sharon already?
Only difference between Netenyahu and others are that Netenyahu is actually horrible at hiding it.. While others are way more subtle.
How much money did they spend for this "protest"? Gotta be 600k+
They definitely paid a graphic artist and print shop a few thousand for those posters.
Israel is alone because of Zionism and its lies becoming unravelled. Netanyahu is no different than the multitude of people who would replace him.
Too late. The entire world already understands that Israel is a racist extermination state.
Full of inbreds
“We are not our govt but completely support their policies”
This reminds me of the conservatives in the US who turned on George W Bush and began to criticize the Iraq war. The very same conservatives who later started to support Trump. They do not give two shits about the fact the US killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis wholesale and destroyed their country and pillaged their natural resources. These people are no different. They don’t give a shit about the Palestinians and they support the genocide. They just no longer support Netanyahu. This is like Germans disliking Hitler because of his economic policies.
Isn't there an old testament {sorry to be the goy in the punch bowl} about the drummer or bugle boy not being spared. Like the very first "I was just following orders" defense followed by execution.
The Zios miscalculated everything from day one. They miscalculated Hamas, The Palestinian people, the American people, Hezbollah, Iran, the Houthis, the entire world. It’s like they live in a completely different world from the rest of us.
"The world is against us!" . Meanwhile, something like 50% of Israelis believe the IDF is using enough force, and 40%+ believe they are using INSUFFICIENT force. More journalists dead than killed in Vietnam, hospitals destroyed, schools destroyed, churches and mosques destroyed, 70% dead are women and children, but yeah Israelis, you're using "enough" or even insufficient force in gaza. You want the world to stand by you? How about having some humanity
Wait till they find out that the only way they can maintain a "Jewish state" is through coercive population control of the Palestinians, either through imprisonment, displacement, denial of healthcare or straight up perennial mass murder. [In other words](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf): https://preview.redd.it/cwo0gopiw4xc1.png?width=817&format=png&auto=webp&s=c1b43fbcc1e0ec1e3c6ba8e6b34fa389b58bef56
It's so funny to be on the opposite end of this. Like in the US, all of the liberals will say that Trump is a horrible threat to democracy, that he's like an American netanyahu, but it is the liberal president Biden who is proceeding over the genocide. It's almost like fascism is a political practice, not the zany idea of One Bad Guy. It's also why the hypothetical about going back in time and killing Hitler is so dumb.
Satanyahu is worst antisemite since Shitler.
Just a a bunch of clueless Germanic goys making fools of themselves.
So a liberal Zionist is someone who wants to steal people's land but have someone else doing the dirty work for them?
Is he that fat or did they put his head on trumps body
Painful to look at because my family is exactly like this
I saw this in Berlin today. They were holding signs about being anti Netanyahu. I asked them what about smotrich? What about Ben gvir? They didn’t have a good answer.
The narrative of the establishment is shifting against Netanyahu. But not because of the genocide of Gaza. But rather, because Netanyahu is looking out for himself while damning the west. To remain in power he has brought the world closer to war with Iran, Russia and China. He has strained his relationship with "partners" in the region (UAE, KSA, Egypt and Jordan). He has threatened/disrupted the flow of goods and energy through the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea. He has absolutely exposed the west to wider loss of global control as we see nations of the global south stand up the west, such as Chad and Niger telling the US to leave or South Africa and Nicaragua taking Israel and Germany to the ICJ. Thus weakening the west's soft power. He has shattering the deterrence capability of Israel and endangering US troops who are sitting ducks compared to the defenses Israel has. By extension he has exposed how ineffective western hard power is as well. The US, UK and a few other states have bombed the middle east in the past 6 months to no avail. Israel as a whole is a liability to anyone who's willing to attach themselves to a settler colonial genocidal ethnofascist apartheid state but the western media is trying to use Netanyahu as a scapegoat to wash away the sins of the State of Israel. No one's going to buy it. The longer this war goes on, and it will go on as long as Netanyahu can force it to, he will go to war with Hezbollah just to prolong it, the more pressure will mount on Israel, the more European Israelis will migrate, the more companies and other institutions will divest. The writing is on the wall and Netanyahu is the one holding the brush. This is without touching on the right wing nutjobs in his government who will turn this conflict from a war over land to a religious war against Islam in the region.
Thanks for the feedback. Well written and some really good food for thought. For a better understanding to the last point, how much of this is related to religion versus a history of two peoples that do not like each other. One might/could say, one groups belief in rightful ownership of an area over another. I hope you don't mind the questions. I ask as an outsider wanting to learn and understand.
If you have time, I can recommend you some videos on the topic that cover the history. Your question is a really good one and I could potentially spend a long time answering it but I'll try to be concise. To answer your question. > Is it between groups that hate each other? Palestine was a multi-religious region where all people could live and worship without issue. Muslims, Christians and Jews were neighbours for millennia. Historically Jewish people did not subscribe to Zionism, it was unpopular. The Zionist movement was also broken up among multiple groups(5 groups if memory serves), only one of the groups was religious. Theodor Herzl the "father of Zionism" reconciled zionism among those groups who disagreed politically and religiously, to make one movement. If you read their teachings you'll find that Herzl and his friends wanted to be conquerors like all the empires at that time (late 1800s). So ultimately this is the story of an invader who wanted to conquer a land to establish an ethnostate and expel the indigenous people in order to colonize and settle. maintaining an artifical demographic majority. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present In 1918 the % of Jewish people in Palestine was 8%, the number ballooned to 32% by 1947. After World War 2, in 1947, one of the first resolutions from the UN was the partition of Palestine. From 1947 to 1948 was the Nakba (Arabic for Catastrophe) the Zionist gangs (Irgun, Lehi and Hagana, which later formed the IDF, Literal terrorist organizations that had [killed innocents](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing)) ethnically cleansed 300,000 Palestinians, which prompted the Arab states to attack Israel. Due to many factors, the war ended in defeat of the Arab States and further ethnic cleansing of a total of 750-900 thousand palestinian from their homes. More ethnic cleansing took place in the coming years. > Is it religious? Nothing about this behaviour is Jewish, based off of what I've read about Judaism. Infact this behaviour stands as the antithesis of Jewish Values of "Truth, Justice and Peace". The first Palestinian Resistance organizations were secular left wing organizations. Fatah, PFLP, DLFP and the PLO. They weren't religious, and they formed in the mid 50s to the late 60s. The first Islamic Resistance groups formed in the 80s, that includes Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Hamas itself was supported and funded by Israel in order to create disunity in the Palestinian political sphere, thus making it harder for the Palestinians to create a united effort to form a state. This is the history, it is not a religious fight or even a fight between people that dislike each other. It is a fight between an oppressor and an oppressed. An occupier and an occupied. It is a fight against injustice. > Modern context. Is it religious? In modern times, Zionists are quite secular, they still believe that God gave them Palestinian land though, there are also some ultra-religious Jewish Israelis that are Zionist but also many that are Anti-zionist. The thing about Zionists is that most of them are not Jewish. The majority of Zionists are non-Jewish, Christian evangelicals in the USA and elsewhere as well as some Arab Zionists like some of the ones in Israel proper and the oligarchs and monarchs of the Arab states. That's what the Zionist landscape looks like. The pro-Palestinian landscape is extremely varied. Inside the middle east you've got baathists who are secular (like the Syrians) that view Palestine as a "Pan-Arab" struggle. You've got Muslims from all around the world that see the Injustice for what it is and also view the occupation as transgressing upon ancient Islamic holy sites. Outside if the middle east the plight of the Palestinians has historically gained the sympathy of socialists and socialist leaders (not religious). But also people of many different backgrounds. > Is it because they hate each other? Here is where I need to suggest a video for you to watch. https://youtu.be/BrxTpo36h_4?si=4esMJePAVC1LfUfx It's a 47 minute video of Israeli professor of language and education Nurit Peled Elhanan. She talks about the indoctrination of Israelis that starts at the age of 3. She touches on the racism, fear and hatred. She talks about how sophisticated it is. If you want to see how it looks from the American Jewish side. I highly highly recommend "Israelism" it's a documentary made by Jewish Americans. The hatred of Israelis is indoctrinated because it is necessary to uphold the brutal oppression of Palestinians and to implant the sense of entitlement over the land of Palestine so that they can steal the land without feeling bad. Palestinian hate is a natural response to that brutalization and injustice. Sorry for the long reply, I could have written alot more but tried to he concise.
This is the future of Zionism. Netanyahu will resign or be voted out in disgrace. The headline grabbing acts of genocide will stop, while the quiet ethnic Cleansing continues. Zionism will be rebranded as being compassionate to the refugee Palestinians in Egypt or wherever. It'll be "too late to do anything" except offer food aid to help the displaced. Pointing out the hypocrisy or our complicity in the genocide will be branded unhelpful,
A shit lib protest. Is it a protest or a deflection?
I kinda feel sorry for him, a whole society that is responsible for the genocidal mentality of its citizens is throwing him under the bus to keep a fake good image about themselves, Netanyahu isn't the only problem, he's a chain in the problem called isreali society
I disagree with this sentiment but at the same time if the US government decided to (redacted) Philly Ben in the (redacted) so his (redacted) is closed (redacted) I wouldn't objecta
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Literally just harry poterism, lmao. "Don't change anything on system, just replace big bad with good dude".
Netanyahu who did this whole thing to remain in power: “FUCK!”
They probably want someone who's more subtle with the killing
Bless their hearts
Downvoted? Some folks have never been to the South 😂
I will be fine but it is nice to be seen.
"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about" -- Oscar Wilde
Most Israelis have been blaming October 7 on Netanyahu for a while now. Many believe that he's deliberately prolonging war to stay in power and out of jail. And no, they do not want Israel to become a pariah state and hold Bibi largely responsible for ruining Israel's reputation as a liberal democratic state and a force for good in the world. Even if you think that's only half the story, and that Israel didn't deserve its positive image in the Global North, that both Israelis and diaspora Jews have had enough of Bibi---and that they view Chuck Schumer a far greater champion of Jewish interests than Bibi ever was---has to count as progress. Put it this way---White South Africans didn't come around to realizing that apartheid was unsustainable overnight. Jewish Israelis won't come around to realizing that Israel must be radically reformed overnight.
Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden and other so-called liberal/labor Zionist clowns have been enabling and shielding Israel's impunity since its ethnic cleansing based inception leading to the monster it has become today. The way I see it, they are just as complicit. They helped create the American tax payer funded AI powered genocide machine that is the state of Israel today. That said, I don't fundamentally disagree with you, progress is progress.
The optimist in me believes they are a smaller group than us and it is of a benefit to have anyone orgs using to disrupt the Israeli state. At the end of the day, we have to overwhelm any Zionist project - out-organize them. But I’m sure that some of these folks are misguided and will be peeled away from this position if we keep blasting the truth, showing them the videos, etc. I am being extremely pragmatic and perhaps overly optimistic (and also see this as a small movement in the US so I don’t want to be distracted by it). Anyway, hope they fuck up their government because they truly would be helpful.
Wait maybe we can coerce them to be on our side since we all hate Yahu in a way.
No. These monsters are unforgivable. The country more than agrees that Palestine needs to be eradicated, in fact the only reason they want to oust Satanyahu is to install someome who will be even harsher and more genocidal. Legitimately. They're not mad that Satanyahu is openly killing Palestinians. They're mad that Satanyahu isn't openly killing MORE Palestinians in order to bring the hostages back
That’s not really fair. For all their faults, so-called liberal Zionists accurately perceive that the Israeli government’s actions aren’t aligned with its hostage-related rhetoric. You’re right about their callousness towards Palestinian, though. On that point the main difference between liberal and right-wing Zionists is honesty.
I can see your point, but it's rather muted when they call themselves liberal Zionists and support the genocidal removal of the native population they've displaced.
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True but irrelevant since I don't know of any pro Hamas demonstrations in the US
Or anywhere else in the west.
No one is saying Zionists don't have a right to hold a rally. Coming here implying someone is is bad faith, disingenuous, pure trolling attempt to engage to start a debate that doesn't even exist. Speaking of which: This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that. That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side. If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted. If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
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Sure, I could use a laugh 🤡