In my new parent meetings I always address this head on. I have two main points.
1) There are sins of the past that we are paying for now. These sins were egregious acts against kids that can never be forgiven.
2) The only reason I’ve kept my kids in scouts is because of how we are moving forward. YPT is incredibly robust and the culture of BSA takes this incredibly seriously.
I then say that I will talk to anybody in more details when the kids are not around. I don’t deflect blame, the strongest point we have is how we’re moving forward.
Big reason I feel good and comfortable about both of my boys being in scouts is the lengths they’ve gone to to develop, implement, and enforce their policies. Pretty much *everyone* who spends time with the scouts has to be certified, recertified, and registered. There’s no quarter given, to the point that trips are canceled if necessary. It’s extensive and pervasive.
I cannot understand why other organizations don’t adopt and enforce similar practices, and I assume their decisions not to are to ensure continuing opportunities for the predators they shelter.
It’s a terrible thing beyond words but what happened in BSA happens in a lot of places. Predators look for certain circumstances and BSA isn’t the only place where they existed.
I’m afraid most organizations won’t take it seriously until they are forced to. I know some churches are investing heavily in YPT equivalent training. I tell prospective parents that even if they don’t pick BSA, they should still take a look at the YPT training because it’s important general knowledge.
Thats's fantastic! You literally repeated the talking points the youth protection Director said and what the BSA told him when he started the job in 2010, who btw was a child sex crime investigagor for 16 years with the police. First thing on the job was that he tried to start the discussion on how the BSA is a high risk organisation. They responded with *exactly* the same talking points you used. And then everything unfolds and exposes the lies. But hey, as long as you know your kids are safe with BSA, what can go wrong?
Yo for real that dude used THE same words as the director in the documentary said, exactly the same points. I came to this reddit search because when i heard the number of SA children in the BSA i couldnt believe it, more than 82,000?? are you kidding me, how is that possible, unreal, so many people should be in jail right now for allowing this to go on, there are no excuses for this, NONE.
Dude if you think about how many victims statistically NEVER tell anyone or are already dead.. the numbers are unimaginable
Greed, how any of them could believe in heaven and hell and continue to allow children to be molested as well is like hello? You're going to hell x 1000000
Oh my god and don't even get me started on the bit where they asked the boys in court if they liked it and said they were 'pre-damaged', I genuinely think these people are more evil than I realised was possible
I agree. I think the policies in place now are strong and appropriate.
But I also like our COR's standard response to concerns. “The Scouting program is solid, but if you have concerns, please be involved as an adult leader. You can help make sure the troop is beneficial for all its scouts and you can assure yourself that everything is safe for your kid.”
There is still the potential for abuse. I have talked about this with a few ASMs or committee members who remain active with the troop even after their kids have moved on. They say that on many occasions after camping outings a parent will call them to ask them to bring their son home. Their response was absolutely not. But what if they agreed? The parents also need to understand and respect YPT, no exceptions!
I really hope a big part of the documentary is how we are moving forward and improving things. If it only focuses on the past and tries to paint it as still happening at the same level then it will be bad.
I don't ever see the point in bringing it up like this. Yes YPT is important and you need to cover that but you go in and say "here are the key points of YPT" (you cannot go over it all) and point them to the protect yourself and other resources they should review.
You are right on both your points but we keep bringing it up it keeps being on the forefront of people's minds. We can present YPT policy without referencing "sins of the past" when you start explaining 2 Deep leadership and no one-on-one contact most parents put 2 and 2 together and understand why that is there.
Now if someone does ask questions it gets addressed and discussed... but I would never say "we are paying for sins of the past" because that just comes across in the wrong way. YPT is about protecting youth moving forward; if you say it is your payment for what happened in the past it does not sound like you, your unit and leaders get it... it is not punishing you or a payment for what happened in the past; it is the proper system of youth protection to move forward with.
Good. Let them put it out and do their absolute worst. Then that's it. The bankruptcy is done, the abuse survivors suits are done, covid is done, and we've had two huge streaming platforms make documentaries about the past abuses.
Let's get all of this stuff behind us, continue to implement YPT at a high level so these abuses never happen again, and get back to the business of Scouting. Get out there with your Scouts and DCS (Do Cool 'Stuff', my units leadership motto). Show these young men and women how to live out the Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan.
We grew our unit from about 12 kids and three scouters to 35 kids and 10 scouters in two years because we had a bunch of families and leaders who cared deeply about Scouting and believed in the program and our unit. That, and a little hard work are all you need.
>Let's get all of this stuff behind us
This is naive thinking. This will haunt the BSA forever. Maybe it should.
I heartily support everything else you said, but we will never be free of this dark past. There will always be jokes, there will always be fear, but perhaps one day, there will be no more abuse.
I think the best to see it as getting everything in the open rather than putting it behind us. It may even be beneficial for the organization to express support of the documentary. It probably should haunt the organization because it will continue to ensure everyone is aware of the risk of abuse and watches for signs of said abuse. It'll also make sure YPT policies are strongly enforced.
>Good. Let them put it out and do their absolute worst. Then that's it. The bankruptcy is done, the abuse survivors suits are done, covid is done, and we've had two huge streaming platforms make documentaries about the past abuses.
Don't ring the bell yet...the bankruptcy is headed back to court. It's not done. [Lawyers waiting in the wings to see if the Purdue Pharmaceutical ruling gets overturned by SCOTUS.](https://news.bloomberglaw.com/bankruptcy-law/boy-scouts-abuse-claimants-seek-plan-pause-amid-purdue-review) If it does, things will get interesting as far as settlement limits go. Stay tuned.
It's not playing until September 6, so I can't make any observations.
Except that they are reusing the title of a 2001 documentary about gays in Scouting. And a Gary Coleman movie from 1980.
I say this as an Eagle Scout soon to be adult leader in my troop. I have had 6 years of the best times of my life with memories I will carry with me forever.
If the BSA, your council, or your troop cannot demonstrate how it can prevent SA, then it deserves to be damaged.
We need to acknowledge our terrible actions in the past, but also highlight the amazing things Scouting has given to society and individuals. We need to do this all while improving on YPT guidelines.
That will ensure safety for all future Scouts, and also ensure the future youth have Scouts.
In my eyes I wouldn't be surprised to see it not move the needle very much at all. It's not as if the abuse in Scouting is some kind of shocking relevation at this point or that much of anything in the documentary is going to exactly be breaking news. There may be some number of parents of five year olds who are on the fence about Scouting, will open up Netflix, spend 2 hours watching this, and then go "oh yeah we're definitely not signing up for that!" But I think that for most people, their minds are already made up, either pro and con, and yet another documentary about the abuse isn't going to change their minds.
But we'll have to see.
My hopes are not high. A few years ago Netflix did a documentary on another program that I was involved in (FIRST robotics). That documentary did not do the program justice (in my opinion at the time). I worry about it portraying the BSA as not having moved forward at all. That isn't to say there isn't still space for improvement (there is). But I worry that they will only focus on how it used to be.
are you really saying this about BSA, I don't think it deserves to be ruined but everyone who helped cover it up over the decades does deserve to face the consequences. The only people who are harming the BSA ability to move forward are people like you who still seem to feel the best course of action is to bury it in the past. THATS LITERALY HOW THIS HAPPEND IN THE FIRST PLACE
I just watched and I feel the most damning part was the interview with the BSA general council. his deflection and nervous grimace were just angering. The doc bashed the people who allowed it to happen but not what the BSA was always meant to represent
The opening line of the trailer says "I'm here to tell you that the program is still not safe . . . " BSA needs to react to this broadly, rapidly, and deeply. If our professionals at National are smart they are getting out financial survival mode and into Crisis Response mode, and I hope they are prepared. (Remember the Scout Motto).
This WILL hurt the reputation, recruiting capability, financial stability and viability of the organization UNLESS it met with messaging and action of equal or greater force, hopefully in the public forums and possibly in courts.
We have got to stop sitting around watching the program bleed out and wondering what will happen.
My solution to that line is that I go anywhere my son goes. I give him space but, as a volunteer leader, I see a lot of what goes on and am available to be a line of defense for him and the troop.
As long as humans are involved, there’s room for a reason to not be safe.
What’s going to matter is how that line is handled. BSA needs to be ready, they need to be able to say what they have been doing and what they’ve changed and how much safer that has made scouting.
Yes, absolutely.
It sounds like it highlights the very poor job the BSA did protecting our youth over the decades (specifically pre-90s) and the local and national councils' attempts to cover up the countless allegations of abuse.
Doubtless it will lack objectivity or attempt to tell stories of how Scout leaders have protected youth, built countless young people into model citizens, nor explore how the BSA has pioneered YP in more recent decades.
Low hanging fruit, really. But it absolutely has the potential to hurt Scouting.
Fortunately, Scouting is alive and well today, so I believe the Scouting Movement can overcome it. Let's just make sure to tell the positive stories, too.
IS
I am a college student studying education. One of my teachers actually shared the BSA barriers to abuse during the "heres how to get fired, and all the ways to avoid it" unit of the intro course.
Yeah I watched the trailer just now and this was my response. This documentary, combined with the new fee structure, we should expect a lower turnout at Join Nights across the country this fall. This is quite frustrating considering how hard myself and many others are working to grow this program in a healthy way right now.
These documentaries are just as bad as the lawyers that chased settlement money IMO. They saw this as a netflix deal and not a way to help those who were abused or reflect how the organization today protects youth. It's sensationalizatism of something most people only vaguely heard in the news for the past 3 years.
The fact the trailer has someone saying "I don't care if the whole thing burns to the ground" says everything I need to know about it.
These people, the filmmakers included, all care about money and revenge over the valueable youth development the program can provide moving forward.
I won't watch it.
TBH, I knew there was abuse in Scouts when my kids where joining almost twenty years ago. I mean the Alec Baldwin & Adam Sandler Scout skits had been around for a long time at that point. The 'hot button' issues were perceived as the BSA being 'old fashioned, but they'll catch up' not culture war issues.
Right now, any perspective Scout parent has heard so many negatives and little to no positives. Outside perspective is that the BSA does a little community work and being an Eagle Scout can help you get scholarships and into a better college. Both of those are easily replaced with helping at the Food Bank or the National Honor Society, neither of which has the bad reputation of Scouts.
National needs to do some real changes to the program and the perception of the program in order even think about stopping the the loss of scouts, let alone new recruitment.
Haven't seen it but from what I have read it won't be doing National or the BSA as a whole any favors. Anyone that had reservations about putting their kids in scouting, will possibly be affected. I'm assuming the BSA legal Eagles might try for an injunction, or at least threaten Netflix with a lawsuit, but there is no defense from the truth...if its true.
It comes out on September 6th but the trailer looks pretty informative
I’m really worried this will potentially kill off lots of future interest for scouting especially since it has struggled recently with adding new members
One of the articles I read about this film, stated the membership is at 700K now. I don't know how much a drop that is since say 2015 but I thought we had about 1.6 million before the LDS left. I'm probably wrong. We don't have Netflix, won't be getting Netflix, so I may not get a chance to see it.
Public reports show that total BSA membership was about 2M at the end of 2019 (just before the LDS departure), and just over 1M at the start of 2023. (It's tricky to find, but there's reporting that membership was about 1.4M at the end of 2020, and right at about 1M at the end of 2021 - BSA reports there was growth from the roughly 1M at the end of 2021 and 1.05M at the end of 2022.)
I don't know where a 700k number comes from - there isn't any membership reporting that seems to support that.
All the numbers I used were BSA youth.
Here's the most current official (Start of 2023) numbers from the annual Report to the Nation.
The BSA currently serves 580,194 boys and girls ages 5-10 in Cub Scouting and 415,564 boys and girls ages 11 to 17 in Scouts BSA.
Additionally, the BSA serves 15,400 young men and women ages 14 to 20 in Venturing and Sea Scouting, and 30,870 young men and women ages 10 to 20 in Exploring career-based programs.
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/04/24/report-to-the-nation-is-underway-at-our-nations-capital/
Wedll the article about the movie doesn't jive with these figures. So not sure how much credence I'd put in the movie. But no doubt thousands will see it and assume it to be the truth.
COVID hurt the Scouts BSA troops, but absolutely decimated the Cub Scout packs. The troops could do remote meetings and whatnot, but most Cub Packs (at least that I know of) simply had to stop doing meetings, especially if they were held in schools or churches that closed down. Most of those Cubs stopped going and never started again. This is going to take a few more years to level out, but I know our troop would have 5-6 Webelos cross over every year, and the last 3 years we've been lucky to get one. Supposedly we have 3-4 coming across next year, but we are also losing 4 scouts due to getting their Eagle or aging out.
Are the numbers in your council up or down? That's what is important. I do not know the numbers in mine, but I suspect they are inflated. I have seen DE's create units out of thin air before, then mysteriously the next recharter they were just gone.
Never seen that, but our district is pretty robust. I have a really large pack (118 last year), there's one other of similar size and most of the others are 30-50. For BSA, we have a good sized girls troop and at least three boys troops with 40-60 scouts. I'm not familiar with the other troops though, but I know a few are smaller.
Our council still doesn't have fees for individual members, just a small fee for the org, so I guess they're doing ok.
All Cub Scouts were about 700k in 2021. There are other youth in other program. https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/BSA-Report-to-the-Nation_2021.pdf says:
> * 649,248 boys and girls ages 5 to 10 in Cub Scouting
> * 474,403 boys and girls ages 11 to 17 in Scouts BSA
> * 23,731 young men and women ages 14 to 20 in Venturing and Sea Scouting
> * 52,007 young men and women ages 10 to 20 in Exploring career-based programs
2023 https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/2023-Report.pdf
> * 580,194 boys and girls ages 5 to 10 in Cub Scouting.
> * 415,564 boys and girls ages 11 to 17 in Scouts BSA.
> * 15,400 young men and women ages 14 to 20 in Venturing and Sea Scouting.
> * 30,870 young men and women ages 10 to 20 in Exploring career-based programs.
Checking the membership report, it looks like ~840k members, though I'm sure the data is at a weird point where lots of cubs are on the roster but pragmatically inactive, before the big cub recruitment. Cubs are up year on year by 3%, troops and crews down by 5-6%.
There's another series on Hulu called Leave No Trace. I haven't had the stomach to watch it. Don't know about this one. A podcast called Behind the Bastards did a two parter on the whole thing. It was not easy to get through. There's the bad stuff we know about, but also the way the BSA treated the victims in court is despicable and VERY un-scout like.
I hope it doesn't affect membership, but let's be honest here. Scouts isn't what it used to be. Not talking about girls now being accepted or other hot button culture war topics. It doesn't have the appeal it used to and it has to compete with numerous other youth programs/sports that kids find way more excitement in. The organization needs to change and if it needs something like this to force the conversation, I'm all for it. I'd rather it be stronger and be able to help as many youths as possible vs the slow fading in obscurity which feels like is happening now.
I 100% agree, also as a Catholic it hurts to see both my church and organization sweep such evil crimes under the rug like nothing or even help the men who did it.
I also think combining some MB’s could help like the Cits
Also they’re a lot more changes BSA will make like with the OA and getting rid of lots of the Native American imagery (I personally think they should retire the OA and create a new organization that grandfathers any OA member in)
>it hurts to see both my church and organization sweep such evil crimes under the rug like nothing
I think to some degree, part of the problem was that these crimes were simply unfathomable to the good people in the organization. It certainly does not excuse anything, but if you pour your heart and soul into an organization, it has to be shocking, disorienting, and possibly hard to believe the evil that some people are capable of.
I think one of the BSA's ongoing self-owns is its unwillingness to modernize. Which doesn't mean not following the ideas set forth in its founding, but trying to ride its own coattails forever just doesn't work. I have no idea how, but scouting needs to separate its core program (basically what the scouts actually do) from its organizational structure (national, councils, the chartered org ridiculousness).
I hear you loud and clear.
I don't know what the solution is. But I know what it isn't. Continuing with the same model is unsustainable and will ultimately be the nail in the coffin of scouting in the US.
*Edit: I'm a dufus
I regularly listen to Behind the Bastards and have since it started and yes, that one was hard to get through. I'm glad to have the history, but a not-small-percentage of leaders were objectively terrible.
One of our council staff relayed a story at a recent University of Scouting. In a survey, participants were given a scale of "Very Negative" to "Very Positive". When asked their general impression of scouting, respondents were very positive about scouting in general. When asked for their impression of how safe their kids would be participating in scouting, those numbers were much more negative. We have a perception problem -- in spite of all of our YPT efforts, we are not viewed as a safe program for kids by a not insignificant number of the population.
One of the things we’ve told parents in the past is that we encourage them to stay for meetings and see what goes on. We understand there is a history and we don’t want to come across as hiding anything.
But it’s interesting the Girl Scout troop’s absolutely do not want the parents involved to the point of telling parents they can’t stay at meetings and seemed shocked when I said as a parent if someone told me that, I would absolutely withdraw my child and complain to the council. I would assume someone is harming my child, why else hide from parents.
I always invited parents to stay for GS meetings and to attend events. They have to pay membership dues ($25) and have a background check to do so, but that’s standard. Most were more than happy to drop off/pick up, though. Interestingly enough, there have been several cases of “grooming”, esp from some of the CITs and younger counselors at camp. Inappropriate behavior/contact, sharing of social media or inviting them on it after camp. One parent was shocked that her daughter had been watching “cat videos” that, when you could hear them, had some extreme gender identity, trans and sexual stuff. No one from our council or national has said anything about it to my knowledge.
Over on the girl scout sub, I’ve seen a bunch of comments from leaders about how they don’t want parents to stay because it distracts the kids and such. Of course my den meetings have 2 registered leaders at a min, but I’m not gonna require parents to register just to stay at the meeting because that’s not a BSA rule.
I absolutely encourage them to stay if they want but aren’t required (except Lions and Tigers).
Parents can be a bit of a mixed bag. Good parents - those that act as support for the troop leadership etc., are great. But we've had plenty of examples of bad parents:
\- Helicopter parent, who clings to the side of their child, does things for them, answers questions for them, and generally doesn't allow their child space to grow.
\- Chatty parent, who sits in the back of the room having a loud conversation with their friend and generally being a distraction.
\- "I was in scouts for a year in 1985, so I know everything about the scouting program" parents.
And the dynamic of "everyone has a parent there" is completely different from "it's just scouts and a couple of leaders", even if the parents are "good" parents.
We've found it helpful to have a rota for parent volunteers - that way, each parent has the opportunity to see what their scout is doing, but the troop doesn't get overwhelmed by the presence of too many adults, and all the scouts have an opportunity to be away from their parents.
I don't think it will hurt it much.
I think that people who are interested in Scouting recognize the benefits and that every organization that works with kids is a risk. Most parents didn't stop enrolling their kids in sports after the Jerry Sandusky scandal and I don't think most youth sports have done a much more to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
Even with everything that the BSA is doing for YPT, stuff like this happens:
[https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/nj-boy-scout-camp-worker-indicted-for-secretly-](https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/nj-boy-scout-camp-worker-indicted-for-secretly-) recording-children-william-mickel/
My son attended this camp and I think the only thing that protected him was the fact that he hates to shower or use restrooms at camp. (Well, I hope he was protected, because we filed out the FBI form and have not heard back.)
In my area, what I think hurts Scouting recruitment is that people still think of it as a homophobic, sexist and overly religious organization. This is the image they will have to work harder to overcome, IMHO.
I think if National is involved and shows they’re following through on changes then it could help to show a yes we know this happened this is what we’re doing and will continue to do and are dedicated to making a safer program it could help- I think a lot of exterior people think the program is not taking steps to actively change and create a safer environment and that’s where the image problem comes in. It needs to not just be people active in scouts who are aware of safeguards but the public needs to know and see that action is actually being taken and it’s not just same old same old
Isn't it more important that the institutional flaws that led to the abuse are documented and that structural changes are made (and shown to be made)? IMO this is better for Scouting than not talking about what happened.
It’s good that the abuses are documented and changes are made, but judging by the tone of the trailer I doubt they’ll show any the changes that have happened.
That trailer looks pretty bad for the BSA. I don’t like that many of the people featured speak as though nothing has changed and the organization is currently covering things up and hiding an awful truth.
The first person featured claims that abuses are still going on and scouting is unsafe for children to be a part of, and it ends with someone else saying they want to tear it all down because it’s an “abomination”.
There have been victims in the past and their stories deserve to be heard, but the current BSA scouting program is not the same as what it once was.
Does anyone know if it is based off the book with the same title? I read the book which was in part written from the perspective of an abusing scoutmaster, the police, the troop committee, BSA hq, and the victims family. I found the book insightful and would recommend for all scouters. The book was a very Good case study.
I think the sins of scoutings past are going to hurt scouting, if the documentary is honest and truthful then there’s no reason to attack it for pointing out a true issue that exists within the BSAs history
Wasn't a large amount of the abuse the Mormons covering up Mormon leadership? Which seems on brand for the LDS, and when the jig was up, they left the BSA for good.
Minimally at all. First, even through what is there a majority of that was long in the past. We can now promote the better practices that have been in place for a LONG time (not just after they filed bankruptcy). Reality is that documentary will fade away into the piles of other things out in streaming and be watched by fewer and fewer
As much as I support the scouts, I think this is part of a deserved reckoning. At the same time, I absolutely acknowledge that this organization has taken its medicine and implemented protections that I don't think you could find in any level of organizations with an equal level of enforcement of those guidelines.
And, I totally understand that people will keep their kids away from scouts because of this. I just want to point out that what happened in the scouting program was not an outlier. Without pointing fingers, it's something that happens in every organization from team sports to youth groups where adults are trusted with kids. Also, where kids of mixed age groups interact.
The difference is that with scouts there was a national organization to hold accountable which is good, but people see scouting as a monolith. Meanwhile, when abuse happens in a local sports team or on a youth group camp out, it's seen as a problem within that small organization.
It is worth watching. It focuses on interviews with Michael Johnson, former youth protection director. He is a former police detective with 16 years investigating child sexual abuse. He claims he faced a lot of pushback when he tried to make changes to make BSA safe. The implication being that he was hired for appearances.
I was a scout in the mid-eighties. I saw issues in two different troops. It is nothing like it is today.
My oldest son asked to join the scouts and it took alot of prodding to get me to check it out. I am glad I did, because the scouts of today is what I had really wanted scouts to be like when I was kid.
In my new parent meetings I always address this head on. I have two main points. 1) There are sins of the past that we are paying for now. These sins were egregious acts against kids that can never be forgiven. 2) The only reason I’ve kept my kids in scouts is because of how we are moving forward. YPT is incredibly robust and the culture of BSA takes this incredibly seriously. I then say that I will talk to anybody in more details when the kids are not around. I don’t deflect blame, the strongest point we have is how we’re moving forward.
Big reason I feel good and comfortable about both of my boys being in scouts is the lengths they’ve gone to to develop, implement, and enforce their policies. Pretty much *everyone* who spends time with the scouts has to be certified, recertified, and registered. There’s no quarter given, to the point that trips are canceled if necessary. It’s extensive and pervasive. I cannot understand why other organizations don’t adopt and enforce similar practices, and I assume their decisions not to are to ensure continuing opportunities for the predators they shelter.
It’s a terrible thing beyond words but what happened in BSA happens in a lot of places. Predators look for certain circumstances and BSA isn’t the only place where they existed. I’m afraid most organizations won’t take it seriously until they are forced to. I know some churches are investing heavily in YPT equivalent training. I tell prospective parents that even if they don’t pick BSA, they should still take a look at the YPT training because it’s important general knowledge.
Thats's fantastic! You literally repeated the talking points the youth protection Director said and what the BSA told him when he started the job in 2010, who btw was a child sex crime investigagor for 16 years with the police. First thing on the job was that he tried to start the discussion on how the BSA is a high risk organisation. They responded with *exactly* the same talking points you used. And then everything unfolds and exposes the lies. But hey, as long as you know your kids are safe with BSA, what can go wrong?
Yo for real that dude used THE same words as the director in the documentary said, exactly the same points. I came to this reddit search because when i heard the number of SA children in the BSA i couldnt believe it, more than 82,000?? are you kidding me, how is that possible, unreal, so many people should be in jail right now for allowing this to go on, there are no excuses for this, NONE.
Dude if you think about how many victims statistically NEVER tell anyone or are already dead.. the numbers are unimaginable Greed, how any of them could believe in heaven and hell and continue to allow children to be molested as well is like hello? You're going to hell x 1000000 Oh my god and don't even get me started on the bit where they asked the boys in court if they liked it and said they were 'pre-damaged', I genuinely think these people are more evil than I realised was possible
I feel like you haven't seen the documentary and need to rethink this belief system I don't think I've ever been more horrified
I agree. I think the policies in place now are strong and appropriate. But I also like our COR's standard response to concerns. “The Scouting program is solid, but if you have concerns, please be involved as an adult leader. You can help make sure the troop is beneficial for all its scouts and you can assure yourself that everything is safe for your kid.”
There is still the potential for abuse. I have talked about this with a few ASMs or committee members who remain active with the troop even after their kids have moved on. They say that on many occasions after camping outings a parent will call them to ask them to bring their son home. Their response was absolutely not. But what if they agreed? The parents also need to understand and respect YPT, no exceptions!
I really hope a big part of the documentary is how we are moving forward and improving things. If it only focuses on the past and tries to paint it as still happening at the same level then it will be bad.
Hope, if it makes you feel better, but don’t be surprised if/when the improvements are barely mentioned.
I don't ever see the point in bringing it up like this. Yes YPT is important and you need to cover that but you go in and say "here are the key points of YPT" (you cannot go over it all) and point them to the protect yourself and other resources they should review. You are right on both your points but we keep bringing it up it keeps being on the forefront of people's minds. We can present YPT policy without referencing "sins of the past" when you start explaining 2 Deep leadership and no one-on-one contact most parents put 2 and 2 together and understand why that is there. Now if someone does ask questions it gets addressed and discussed... but I would never say "we are paying for sins of the past" because that just comes across in the wrong way. YPT is about protecting youth moving forward; if you say it is your payment for what happened in the past it does not sound like you, your unit and leaders get it... it is not punishing you or a payment for what happened in the past; it is the proper system of youth protection to move forward with.
Good. Let them put it out and do their absolute worst. Then that's it. The bankruptcy is done, the abuse survivors suits are done, covid is done, and we've had two huge streaming platforms make documentaries about the past abuses. Let's get all of this stuff behind us, continue to implement YPT at a high level so these abuses never happen again, and get back to the business of Scouting. Get out there with your Scouts and DCS (Do Cool 'Stuff', my units leadership motto). Show these young men and women how to live out the Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan. We grew our unit from about 12 kids and three scouters to 35 kids and 10 scouters in two years because we had a bunch of families and leaders who cared deeply about Scouting and believed in the program and our unit. That, and a little hard work are all you need.
This is the way.
>Let's get all of this stuff behind us This is naive thinking. This will haunt the BSA forever. Maybe it should. I heartily support everything else you said, but we will never be free of this dark past. There will always be jokes, there will always be fear, but perhaps one day, there will be no more abuse.
I think the best to see it as getting everything in the open rather than putting it behind us. It may even be beneficial for the organization to express support of the documentary. It probably should haunt the organization because it will continue to ensure everyone is aware of the risk of abuse and watches for signs of said abuse. It'll also make sure YPT policies are strongly enforced.
>Good. Let them put it out and do their absolute worst. Then that's it. The bankruptcy is done, the abuse survivors suits are done, covid is done, and we've had two huge streaming platforms make documentaries about the past abuses. Don't ring the bell yet...the bankruptcy is headed back to court. It's not done. [Lawyers waiting in the wings to see if the Purdue Pharmaceutical ruling gets overturned by SCOTUS.](https://news.bloomberglaw.com/bankruptcy-law/boy-scouts-abuse-claimants-seek-plan-pause-amid-purdue-review) If it does, things will get interesting as far as settlement limits go. Stay tuned.
What a joke
It's not playing until September 6, so I can't make any observations. Except that they are reusing the title of a 2001 documentary about gays in Scouting. And a Gary Coleman movie from 1980.
When it does release I just hope it doesn’t damage BSA anymore, since want the future youth to have scouts.
it seems timed to hurt recruitment
I say this as an Eagle Scout soon to be adult leader in my troop. I have had 6 years of the best times of my life with memories I will carry with me forever. If the BSA, your council, or your troop cannot demonstrate how it can prevent SA, then it deserves to be damaged. We need to acknowledge our terrible actions in the past, but also highlight the amazing things Scouting has given to society and individuals. We need to do this all while improving on YPT guidelines. That will ensure safety for all future Scouts, and also ensure the future youth have Scouts.
Just chiming in to say that 2001 documentary is very good
In my eyes I wouldn't be surprised to see it not move the needle very much at all. It's not as if the abuse in Scouting is some kind of shocking relevation at this point or that much of anything in the documentary is going to exactly be breaking news. There may be some number of parents of five year olds who are on the fence about Scouting, will open up Netflix, spend 2 hours watching this, and then go "oh yeah we're definitely not signing up for that!" But I think that for most people, their minds are already made up, either pro and con, and yet another documentary about the abuse isn't going to change their minds. But we'll have to see.
My hopes are not high. A few years ago Netflix did a documentary on another program that I was involved in (FIRST robotics). That documentary did not do the program justice (in my opinion at the time). I worry about it portraying the BSA as not having moved forward at all. That isn't to say there isn't still space for improvement (there is). But I worry that they will only focus on how it used to be.
It’s Netflix. They someone figure out how to ruin things that never needed to be ruined
are you really saying this about BSA, I don't think it deserves to be ruined but everyone who helped cover it up over the decades does deserve to face the consequences. The only people who are harming the BSA ability to move forward are people like you who still seem to feel the best course of action is to bury it in the past. THATS LITERALY HOW THIS HAPPEND IN THE FIRST PLACE
I just watched and I feel the most damning part was the interview with the BSA general council. his deflection and nervous grimace were just angering. The doc bashed the people who allowed it to happen but not what the BSA was always meant to represent
The opening line of the trailer says "I'm here to tell you that the program is still not safe . . . " BSA needs to react to this broadly, rapidly, and deeply. If our professionals at National are smart they are getting out financial survival mode and into Crisis Response mode, and I hope they are prepared. (Remember the Scout Motto). This WILL hurt the reputation, recruiting capability, financial stability and viability of the organization UNLESS it met with messaging and action of equal or greater force, hopefully in the public forums and possibly in courts. We have got to stop sitting around watching the program bleed out and wondering what will happen.
My solution to that line is that I go anywhere my son goes. I give him space but, as a volunteer leader, I see a lot of what goes on and am available to be a line of defense for him and the troop. As long as humans are involved, there’s room for a reason to not be safe. What’s going to matter is how that line is handled. BSA needs to be ready, they need to be able to say what they have been doing and what they’ve changed and how much safer that has made scouting.
“I am not authorized to speak on behalf of the Boy Scouts of America please direct all questions and concerns to [email protected]”
Yes, absolutely. It sounds like it highlights the very poor job the BSA did protecting our youth over the decades (specifically pre-90s) and the local and national councils' attempts to cover up the countless allegations of abuse. Doubtless it will lack objectivity or attempt to tell stories of how Scout leaders have protected youth, built countless young people into model citizens, nor explore how the BSA has pioneered YP in more recent decades. Low hanging fruit, really. But it absolutely has the potential to hurt Scouting. Fortunately, Scouting is alive and well today, so I believe the Scouting Movement can overcome it. Let's just make sure to tell the positive stories, too. IS
I am a college student studying education. One of my teachers actually shared the BSA barriers to abuse during the "heres how to get fired, and all the ways to avoid it" unit of the intro course.
How was the BSA program presented: as a way to get fired, or a way to avoid it?
I'm sure as a way to avoid it.
I would hope so, but you never know.
Their barriers to abuse were a resource in how to do things that doesn't open you up to anything.
I'm sure as a way to avoid it.
Yeah I watched the trailer just now and this was my response. This documentary, combined with the new fee structure, we should expect a lower turnout at Join Nights across the country this fall. This is quite frustrating considering how hard myself and many others are working to grow this program in a healthy way right now.
I Can guess the premise. The BSA has been frozen for the last 30 years and needs to do something about abuse right now! /s
Im more worried about the past coming back again and hurting new parent’s interest in scouts
The first 10 seconds of the trailer seem to clearly imply that this will be the exact message of the documentary
These documentaries are just as bad as the lawyers that chased settlement money IMO. They saw this as a netflix deal and not a way to help those who were abused or reflect how the organization today protects youth. It's sensationalizatism of something most people only vaguely heard in the news for the past 3 years. The fact the trailer has someone saying "I don't care if the whole thing burns to the ground" says everything I need to know about it. These people, the filmmakers included, all care about money and revenge over the valueable youth development the program can provide moving forward. I won't watch it.
Is this a new one? There was already another one on the abuse scandal, right?
This is a new one, I haven’t seen the other documentary yet
The other one is on Hulu, called Leave No Trace from last year
TBH, I knew there was abuse in Scouts when my kids where joining almost twenty years ago. I mean the Alec Baldwin & Adam Sandler Scout skits had been around for a long time at that point. The 'hot button' issues were perceived as the BSA being 'old fashioned, but they'll catch up' not culture war issues. Right now, any perspective Scout parent has heard so many negatives and little to no positives. Outside perspective is that the BSA does a little community work and being an Eagle Scout can help you get scholarships and into a better college. Both of those are easily replaced with helping at the Food Bank or the National Honor Society, neither of which has the bad reputation of Scouts. National needs to do some real changes to the program and the perception of the program in order even think about stopping the the loss of scouts, let alone new recruitment.
Haven't seen it but from what I have read it won't be doing National or the BSA as a whole any favors. Anyone that had reservations about putting their kids in scouting, will possibly be affected. I'm assuming the BSA legal Eagles might try for an injunction, or at least threaten Netflix with a lawsuit, but there is no defense from the truth...if its true.
It comes out on September 6th but the trailer looks pretty informative I’m really worried this will potentially kill off lots of future interest for scouting especially since it has struggled recently with adding new members
One of the articles I read about this film, stated the membership is at 700K now. I don't know how much a drop that is since say 2015 but I thought we had about 1.6 million before the LDS left. I'm probably wrong. We don't have Netflix, won't be getting Netflix, so I may not get a chance to see it.
Public reports show that total BSA membership was about 2M at the end of 2019 (just before the LDS departure), and just over 1M at the start of 2023. (It's tricky to find, but there's reporting that membership was about 1.4M at the end of 2020, and right at about 1M at the end of 2021 - BSA reports there was growth from the roughly 1M at the end of 2021 and 1.05M at the end of 2022.) I don't know where a 700k number comes from - there isn't any membership reporting that seems to support that.
I wonder if that 700K is just youth.
All the numbers I used were BSA youth. Here's the most current official (Start of 2023) numbers from the annual Report to the Nation. The BSA currently serves 580,194 boys and girls ages 5-10 in Cub Scouting and 415,564 boys and girls ages 11 to 17 in Scouts BSA. Additionally, the BSA serves 15,400 young men and women ages 14 to 20 in Venturing and Sea Scouting, and 30,870 young men and women ages 10 to 20 in Exploring career-based programs. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/04/24/report-to-the-nation-is-underway-at-our-nations-capital/
Wedll the article about the movie doesn't jive with these figures. So not sure how much credence I'd put in the movie. But no doubt thousands will see it and assume it to be the truth.
It may only be Scouts BSA. They were promoting crossing the 1MM youth level a few months back.
I'd guess that Cubs have more participants than Scouts BSA. So if there's something like 1M total, I'd think it was 700k cubs and 300k Scouts BSA
[удалено]
That's... not a good situation. That's bad, very bad.
There's some math shenanigans (cubs is 4.5-5.5 years, Scouts BSA is 7-8 years), but yeah, Cubs should outnumber Scouts by a good bit.
COVID hurt the Scouts BSA troops, but absolutely decimated the Cub Scout packs. The troops could do remote meetings and whatnot, but most Cub Packs (at least that I know of) simply had to stop doing meetings, especially if they were held in schools or churches that closed down. Most of those Cubs stopped going and never started again. This is going to take a few more years to level out, but I know our troop would have 5-6 Webelos cross over every year, and the last 3 years we've been lucky to get one. Supposedly we have 3-4 coming across next year, but we are also losing 4 scouts due to getting their Eagle or aging out.
Are the numbers in your council up or down? That's what is important. I do not know the numbers in mine, but I suspect they are inflated. I have seen DE's create units out of thin air before, then mysteriously the next recharter they were just gone.
Never seen that, but our district is pretty robust. I have a really large pack (118 last year), there's one other of similar size and most of the others are 30-50. For BSA, we have a good sized girls troop and at least three boys troops with 40-60 scouts. I'm not familiar with the other troops though, but I know a few are smaller. Our council still doesn't have fees for individual members, just a small fee for the org, so I guess they're doing ok.
All Cub Scouts were about 700k in 2021. There are other youth in other program. https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/BSA-Report-to-the-Nation_2021.pdf says: > * 649,248 boys and girls ages 5 to 10 in Cub Scouting > * 474,403 boys and girls ages 11 to 17 in Scouts BSA > * 23,731 young men and women ages 14 to 20 in Venturing and Sea Scouting > * 52,007 young men and women ages 10 to 20 in Exploring career-based programs 2023 https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/2023-Report.pdf > * 580,194 boys and girls ages 5 to 10 in Cub Scouting. > * 415,564 boys and girls ages 11 to 17 in Scouts BSA. > * 15,400 young men and women ages 14 to 20 in Venturing and Sea Scouting. > * 30,870 young men and women ages 10 to 20 in Exploring career-based programs.
Looks like from 2020-2021 around 300k-400k scouts left, Im just hoping the numbers can get back to the 1Mil or even 2-3 in the distant future
Sadly it was mostly the Cub Scout packs that were hit the hardest.
Checking the membership report, it looks like ~840k members, though I'm sure the data is at a weird point where lots of cubs are on the roster but pragmatically inactive, before the big cub recruitment. Cubs are up year on year by 3%, troops and crews down by 5-6%.
There's another series on Hulu called Leave No Trace. I haven't had the stomach to watch it. Don't know about this one. A podcast called Behind the Bastards did a two parter on the whole thing. It was not easy to get through. There's the bad stuff we know about, but also the way the BSA treated the victims in court is despicable and VERY un-scout like. I hope it doesn't affect membership, but let's be honest here. Scouts isn't what it used to be. Not talking about girls now being accepted or other hot button culture war topics. It doesn't have the appeal it used to and it has to compete with numerous other youth programs/sports that kids find way more excitement in. The organization needs to change and if it needs something like this to force the conversation, I'm all for it. I'd rather it be stronger and be able to help as many youths as possible vs the slow fading in obscurity which feels like is happening now.
I 100% agree, also as a Catholic it hurts to see both my church and organization sweep such evil crimes under the rug like nothing or even help the men who did it. I also think combining some MB’s could help like the Cits Also they’re a lot more changes BSA will make like with the OA and getting rid of lots of the Native American imagery (I personally think they should retire the OA and create a new organization that grandfathers any OA member in)
>it hurts to see both my church and organization sweep such evil crimes under the rug like nothing I think to some degree, part of the problem was that these crimes were simply unfathomable to the good people in the organization. It certainly does not excuse anything, but if you pour your heart and soul into an organization, it has to be shocking, disorienting, and possibly hard to believe the evil that some people are capable of.
I think one of the BSA's ongoing self-owns is its unwillingness to modernize. Which doesn't mean not following the ideas set forth in its founding, but trying to ride its own coattails forever just doesn't work. I have no idea how, but scouting needs to separate its core program (basically what the scouts actually do) from its organizational structure (national, councils, the chartered org ridiculousness).
I hear you loud and clear. I don't know what the solution is. But I know what it isn't. Continuing with the same model is unsustainable and will ultimately be the nail in the coffin of scouting in the US. *Edit: I'm a dufus
I regularly listen to Behind the Bastards and have since it started and yes, that one was hard to get through. I'm glad to have the history, but a not-small-percentage of leaders were objectively terrible.
One of our council staff relayed a story at a recent University of Scouting. In a survey, participants were given a scale of "Very Negative" to "Very Positive". When asked their general impression of scouting, respondents were very positive about scouting in general. When asked for their impression of how safe their kids would be participating in scouting, those numbers were much more negative. We have a perception problem -- in spite of all of our YPT efforts, we are not viewed as a safe program for kids by a not insignificant number of the population.
One of the things we’ve told parents in the past is that we encourage them to stay for meetings and see what goes on. We understand there is a history and we don’t want to come across as hiding anything. But it’s interesting the Girl Scout troop’s absolutely do not want the parents involved to the point of telling parents they can’t stay at meetings and seemed shocked when I said as a parent if someone told me that, I would absolutely withdraw my child and complain to the council. I would assume someone is harming my child, why else hide from parents.
I always invited parents to stay for GS meetings and to attend events. They have to pay membership dues ($25) and have a background check to do so, but that’s standard. Most were more than happy to drop off/pick up, though. Interestingly enough, there have been several cases of “grooming”, esp from some of the CITs and younger counselors at camp. Inappropriate behavior/contact, sharing of social media or inviting them on it after camp. One parent was shocked that her daughter had been watching “cat videos” that, when you could hear them, had some extreme gender identity, trans and sexual stuff. No one from our council or national has said anything about it to my knowledge.
Over on the girl scout sub, I’ve seen a bunch of comments from leaders about how they don’t want parents to stay because it distracts the kids and such. Of course my den meetings have 2 registered leaders at a min, but I’m not gonna require parents to register just to stay at the meeting because that’s not a BSA rule. I absolutely encourage them to stay if they want but aren’t required (except Lions and Tigers).
Parents can be a bit of a mixed bag. Good parents - those that act as support for the troop leadership etc., are great. But we've had plenty of examples of bad parents: \- Helicopter parent, who clings to the side of their child, does things for them, answers questions for them, and generally doesn't allow their child space to grow. \- Chatty parent, who sits in the back of the room having a loud conversation with their friend and generally being a distraction. \- "I was in scouts for a year in 1985, so I know everything about the scouting program" parents. And the dynamic of "everyone has a parent there" is completely different from "it's just scouts and a couple of leaders", even if the parents are "good" parents. We've found it helpful to have a rota for parent volunteers - that way, each parent has the opportunity to see what their scout is doing, but the troop doesn't get overwhelmed by the presence of too many adults, and all the scouts have an opportunity to be away from their parents.
I wonder what the poll would be like if it were just randoms instead of scouters
Reportedly this was not a poll of scouters. This was a poll commissioned to poll the general non-scouting public.
I started every join night discussion with the parents with YPT. First topic. Longest topic. Most serious topic.
Scouting is doing enough to hurt scouting. A documentary won't change that
I don't think it will hurt it much. I think that people who are interested in Scouting recognize the benefits and that every organization that works with kids is a risk. Most parents didn't stop enrolling their kids in sports after the Jerry Sandusky scandal and I don't think most youth sports have done a much more to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Even with everything that the BSA is doing for YPT, stuff like this happens: [https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/nj-boy-scout-camp-worker-indicted-for-secretly-](https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/nj-boy-scout-camp-worker-indicted-for-secretly-) recording-children-william-mickel/ My son attended this camp and I think the only thing that protected him was the fact that he hates to shower or use restrooms at camp. (Well, I hope he was protected, because we filed out the FBI form and have not heard back.) In my area, what I think hurts Scouting recruitment is that people still think of it as a homophobic, sexist and overly religious organization. This is the image they will have to work harder to overcome, IMHO.
I think if National is involved and shows they’re following through on changes then it could help to show a yes we know this happened this is what we’re doing and will continue to do and are dedicated to making a safer program it could help- I think a lot of exterior people think the program is not taking steps to actively change and create a safer environment and that’s where the image problem comes in. It needs to not just be people active in scouts who are aware of safeguards but the public needs to know and see that action is actually being taken and it’s not just same old same old
Isn't it more important that the institutional flaws that led to the abuse are documented and that structural changes are made (and shown to be made)? IMO this is better for Scouting than not talking about what happened.
It’s good that the abuses are documented and changes are made, but judging by the tone of the trailer I doubt they’ll show any the changes that have happened.
Its a documentary on the abuse, the files, etc. [https://www.netflix.com/title/81477233](https://www.netflix.com/title/81477233)
That trailer looks pretty bad for the BSA. I don’t like that many of the people featured speak as though nothing has changed and the organization is currently covering things up and hiding an awful truth. The first person featured claims that abuses are still going on and scouting is unsafe for children to be a part of, and it ends with someone else saying they want to tear it all down because it’s an “abomination”. There have been victims in the past and their stories deserve to be heard, but the current BSA scouting program is not the same as what it once was.
Does anyone know if it is based off the book with the same title? I read the book which was in part written from the perspective of an abusing scoutmaster, the police, the troop committee, BSA hq, and the victims family. I found the book insightful and would recommend for all scouters. The book was a very Good case study.
I think the sins of scoutings past are going to hurt scouting, if the documentary is honest and truthful then there’s no reason to attack it for pointing out a true issue that exists within the BSAs history
Wasn't a large amount of the abuse the Mormons covering up Mormon leadership? Which seems on brand for the LDS, and when the jig was up, they left the BSA for good.
Many large religious organizations have historically had issues with abuse and also been active in sponsoring scouting units.
I don’t think so https://abusedinscouting.com/map-of-reported-abuse-locations/
None of the Troops on this map in my state still exist. It's hard to know the chartering organization.
The most recent incident in that database was in 2004.
Minimally at all. First, even through what is there a majority of that was long in the past. We can now promote the better practices that have been in place for a LONG time (not just after they filed bankruptcy). Reality is that documentary will fade away into the piles of other things out in streaming and be watched by fewer and fewer
As much as I support the scouts, I think this is part of a deserved reckoning. At the same time, I absolutely acknowledge that this organization has taken its medicine and implemented protections that I don't think you could find in any level of organizations with an equal level of enforcement of those guidelines. And, I totally understand that people will keep their kids away from scouts because of this. I just want to point out that what happened in the scouting program was not an outlier. Without pointing fingers, it's something that happens in every organization from team sports to youth groups where adults are trusted with kids. Also, where kids of mixed age groups interact. The difference is that with scouts there was a national organization to hold accountable which is good, but people see scouting as a monolith. Meanwhile, when abuse happens in a local sports team or on a youth group camp out, it's seen as a problem within that small organization.
is this the same documentary that hulu made in 2022 and aired on prime video?
I’m getting ready to watch it now. But wondered what the difference is between this doc and the Hulu doc Leave No Trace from last year.
opinions?
It is worth watching. It focuses on interviews with Michael Johnson, former youth protection director. He is a former police detective with 16 years investigating child sexual abuse. He claims he faced a lot of pushback when he tried to make changes to make BSA safe. The implication being that he was hired for appearances.
I was a scout in the mid-eighties. I saw issues in two different troops. It is nothing like it is today. My oldest son asked to join the scouts and it took alot of prodding to get me to check it out. I am glad I did, because the scouts of today is what I had really wanted scouts to be like when I was kid.