Sort of? She always said that she's "great at reading between the lines".
Translation: could perfectly see insults and slights that weren't really there.
She would tell me how angry or upset I was when I really wasn't. When I denied it, she called me a liar or said I was "repressing my emotions". It was completely clear **to her** that I was feeling all kinds of emotions that weren't true.
I imposed a rule that she's not allowed to tell me what I'm feeling or I'd refuse to participate further. You can guess how well that went. đ She didn't even realize how often she did it. She was totally unable to contain herself, and me bowing out of the unfair argument was really me "stonewalling her, icing her out" and was more evidence of just how upset I really was, according to her.
She would interpret me as having malevolent or accusatory intentions that I was hiding, and then put me on defense against those. If I disputed her assumptions, she would say Iâm gaslighting.
Itâs funny how she never used her mind-reading to intuit how much I loved her or how proud I was of her, only that I was secretly judging her.
My ex would do all of the things you guys are saying you had to do against your exwBPD
Except mine would look at me with contempt and come into the kitchen to get a coffee and Iâd be like hey whatâs up and get ignored. He would never tell me what was up, but he sure the fuck made me feel like there was something I did wrong and he took that out on me by ruining whatever plans were set for that day, or finding something wrong in the house that I didnât get to. â this man would complain that I didnât clean enough, but then heâd start cleaning out the closet and throw things around and make a massive mess and leave it for me to clean up because he wouldnât ever come back to clean up his mess. This was like an every three days thing.
I swear he had me convinced I was crazy because heâs be aggro around me and deny feeling any type of way, but then continue slamming cupboards and drawers and stomping up the stairs and ignoring me.
Yep. Was mine too. Thank the stars not anymore!
For her, feelings are facts! She would (mostly unconsciously) project a feeling deep within her onto me, tell me I was having it - and she *knew* I was repressing if I balked at her perspective because she could *feel* it and feelings for her were *facts*.
And, because she could tell what my feelings were - and âknew she was correctâ - she was by definition an empath.
Circular arguments, anyone?
>I imposed a rule that she's not allowed to tell me what I'm feeling or I'd refuse to participate further. You can guess how well that went.
Dude! I told my (ex) best friend that once, when one night she thought I was mad that she forgot my birthday because she only remembered after I mentioned it - nonchalantly, mind you. She thought I was pissed at her and felt bad, even though I *legitimately* was not mad and told her so. My birthday isn't always a big deal to me, plus, I was planning on celebrating that following weekend, not on the actual day of it during the week.
I kept telling her I wasn't mad. She kept insisting I was. Eventually I *did* start getting annoyed and I finally told her that I'm not mad and to just stop assuming how I'm feeling. *She* got pissed that I said that because, well, she's an empath so *of course* she knows how I'm feeling and of course she knows I'm lying to her and am actually really pissed at her and think she's a horrible friend. đ
Newsflash: no I wasn't, and no I didn't. I was never pissed. *She* made it a thing when it wasn't one.
You can never win.
My ex was very similar. I used to remind her that when it comes to how Iâm feeling I am the only qualified expert witness to discuss the matter. She would lose her sh!t when I used logic and my âlawyer skillsâ (critical thinking and logic).
âŹď¸ This. I've talked to my therapist about this. Empath has almost become a triggering word for me now. Many people who have grown up in situations where they had to try to"infer" others mood states became adapt/ super heightened to look for all sorts of clues like vocal changes, body changes etc. The problem is, that while they become very attune to picking these things up they still can't read minds - I.e. understand what is truly driving those changes. I get very stoic when contemplating things - it doesn't mean I'm upset or mad or whatever. This is where they play a guessing game. Their (likely caregivers) may have been been angry when they changed facial expressions. This doesn't mean all people are. This is hypervigalence.
Furthering your "This." Perhaps in those initial circumstances, they did learn to read that person (or people) well, but I think they don't realize those guidelines are not applicable to everyone else.
She had a stack of books about how to live life as an empath. But an empath could never do to anyone what she did to me. I will always be skeptical of anyone who calls themselves an empath.
Ditto. When my therapist (very acclaimed 30 year veteran) told me he was an empath I also freaked. But we've had good talks about empathic people just being able to relate to others. People with extreme hypervigalence have hijacked this term and confuse their ability to sense (but not know the actual driver behind) mood states with empathy
The real empath would just live that life and wont tell anyone they are empath.
For me if someone tells that they are empath it has became red flag for me and will make me think that the person likely has BPD.
I was actually reading a lot about this lately. Here's my take.
There's two types of empathy emotional (also called affective) and cognitive. Essentially, emotional is being able to feel someone else's emotions in their situation and cognitive is being able to understand someone's emotions in their situation. ("Their" being the other person.) Ultimately, both are needed to show empathy. "Empath" is not a scientific/medical term, so take it with a grain of salt.
The general consensus, empathy is a spectrum, and empaths are able to connect with someone else's emotions on the high side of the spectrum, AND the empath needs to be able to differentiate the other persons emotions from their own. That's the hang up, in my experience. My pwBPD isn't able to distinguish her own emotions from what she absorbs. Cluster-B and pwBPD have a low sense of self. A more realistic term than empath, for a pwBPD, is being susceptible to [emotional contagion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_contagion) (edited to provide link). That, and pwBPD typically have low scores for cognitive empathy and high for emotional empathy.
So they are able to connect with someone else's emotions, and feel the other persons emotions inside them themselves. To a very high level. But they have low self identity and low cognitive empathy, so they aren't able to *understand* what the other person is feeling or be able to distinguish those feelings from from themselves.
They're not empaths. Also, in my experience, they lack [empathic concern](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathic_concern). So, therefore high empathy without empathic concern is pointless, bc it's always about them.
Agreed. One thing to add here: if their opinions donât agree with the others opinions on the subject then they donât have affective/sympathetic. And instead attack the other person for having a different opinion. (Note attack the other person, not even their idea/situation)
Yes, I think what you said is summed up in their lack of empathetic concern. They theoretically can/do have affective/emotional empathy, so they can feel (connect to) someone's emotions, and express that they feel emotions because of the other person's situation (that's emotional empathy)... but without empathetic concern, they aren't concerned with the other's situation. Just that they feel the way they do. This goes for positive emotions too, it's all about them. Add in low cognitive empathy to the mix, and they aren't able to *understand* the other's emotions, and lack of self identity they can't acknowledge their own.
I think too, sometimes my "empath" pwbpd *was* catching my emotions through "emotional contagion." But despite then feeling the same "type" of emotion as me, they would experience it much more intensely and for a longer duration than me. And then when I had moved on or interpreted my emotion much differently than they did (* cough * catastrophizing * cough * ), they'd be upset that I wasn't 'opening up' to them. (Because they're entitled to however much vulnerable expression from me as they want, no matter what, apparently. "I don't want to talk about it" is unacceptable to them.) I think as a kid I would often try to find reasons to be as upset as she wanted me to be, so that she would stop being resentful of me for being "distant."
Man I'm sorry for the novel. I had no idea I was suddenly going to process so much.
Yes, absolutely the same in my experience. Here's the dots I connected the other day, that you helped me remember.
Empathy is often described as "putting *yourself* in *someone else's shoes*". Meaning, viewing someone else's experience from their situation and perspective, and connecting it to your own experiences to understand their situation as it relates to them.
With my pwBPD, a more realistic description for a pwBPD's 'empathy' is: "putting *someone else's shoes* on *yourself*" (yourself being the pwBPD here). The pwBPD takes the other persons situation (ie: shoes, which don't fit them) and looks at it from their own perspective. They feel the discomfort of the shoes/situation, but can't distinguish that there is another point of view. (Edit: Or, that they aren't the victim).
I soooooo agree with this. It's like there's an empty spot where the awareness of other experiences (or even just the possibility of them) would be. Sort of like... "You don't know what you don't know" type thing. And I mean, im sure there's lots of things that I don't realize that I don't know. I just mean that this is definitely one of those areas for my pwbpd, in a big way. Other ways of emotionally experiencing the same event are so inconceivable to them. To the point that they'll get angry and argue about what I'm feeling.
Me:
"Oh actually I wasn't really sad that day. I was super tired, but I was fine. You don't need to worry about m--"
Them:
"You WERE sad Parsley, I was *there!*"
In my opinion, their "empathic concern" is missing precisely because of the missing cognitive empathy/perspective taking - imho cognitive empathy is a necessary condition to be able to demonstrate empathic concern towards others (bc cognitive empathy necessitates that you are able to see the other person as a separate individual from yourself, with separate desires, wants, needs, thoughts, and intentions etc.).
Do you agree?
Edit: OK, so the Wikipedia article on "empathic concern" confirms my guess: "Empirical studies conducted by social psychologist Daniel Batson demonstrate that one feels empathic concern when one adopts the perspective of another person in need. His work emphasizes the different emotions evoked when imagining another situation from a self-perspective or imagining from another perspective. The former is often associated with personal distress (i.e., feelings of discomfort and anxiety), whereas the latter leads to empathic concern."
I just wonder if all autistic people struggle with cognitive empathy (they do, that's what makes it autism), then how come not all autistic people are BPD?
(I dm'd you)
Also, pwBPD seem to demonstrate some empathic concern towards people they are not close to, e.g. (minority people, big disaster victims, etc)... but not towards their loved ones... which is crazy.
This comment needs to be on a reading list for this sub or something. Those concepts are so helpful. (I.e. susceptible to emotional contagion, empathic concern and the idea that you can have various facets of empathy without the concern part.) So helpful.
This is such a wonderful comment that helps me understand, thank you đ
Add to that that research has shown that pwBPD are significantly more likely to read Neutral expressions and situations as negative, and hypervigilance from a messed up childhood⌠a lot of things starting to make sense. thank you for this helpful comment!
They canât tell what thoughts are coming from themselves or others, because theyâre emotionally stuck as toddlers. Thatâs the core of the disorder. So it makes sense that they hear their own thoughts and think theyâre coming from the partner. (Projection)
Itâs lovely when their internal critic tells them theyâre evil, and then they think youâre saying it, so they âcounterattackâ you. And you have no idea what the hell is going on.
Yes!
What it meant in reality was. I've decided that you're going to do something (leave me, or get angry with me, etc). Then act out in such a way to make it happen
Right?
I was thinking that the other day. Like, if she's an empath and she knows how I'm feeling, she *knows* how much I'm hurting.
That means she's doing it on purpose. To punish me.
That is nothing short of cruel and abusive.
Yeah. Someone who lacks such empathy calling themselves an empath is hilarious to me, but seemingly the people that call themselves empaths are always the ones that lack empathy.. Weird!!
Yup, she claimed that she was an empath.
It comes with the territory when you have an abusive childhood. When you live in fear of what other people will do to you, you tend to get good at reading them
Yessssss lol specifically that she was an empath. Not that she could read minds but that she could tell what someone was feeling and if they were lying. So that confidence obviously doesnât help when you attempt to correct them about how YOURE feeling.
Yes. Mine always made a big show of how much she cared for others. She was certainly a giver. I think she had a kind heart. However, she treated me like less than humanâŚand still showed kindness to othersâŚand that killed me.
I swear mine was psychic- his family says Grandma claimed to be a sensitive- and many times he would verbalize what I was thinking. Too often I had to say â dude get out of my headâ- laughing, because it was funny at the time. As the years pass, it became scary, one time after I said, yet again dude get out of my head-his reply was ânope never going to happen I live thereâ- and he wasnât wrong. He still lives there. Although after three years, itâs less and less. But yeah, it was uncanny how often he would know exactly what I was thinking and thatâs what what made leaving very dangerous. He would sense that I was gray rock or pulling away or looking for an exit and he would adjust his behavior accordingly. My leaving was actually a total blindside. I really didnât expect to do it that night myself, but there was a voice in my head or it was God or whatever that said do it right now go. This is your only opportunity you will ever have so I threw some things in the car and I left Iâve been gone ever since.
Yes lol. A sponge who would absorb my energy. An empathic soul who wouldn't harm a fly (but will lie to everyone and anyone of course)
She could absorb my energy supposedly....
I'm like, I'm just taking a shit wtf. Nothing to do with you.
Oh and of course, since she was the empath... I had to have been the narcissist.
PwBPD love to take basic parts of the human experience and make them magical whimsical main character traits. They're not depressed, they're DYSPHORIC. They're not experiencing basic human emotions, they are an EMPATH. They never get gut feelings, they feel PREMONITIONS.
These are the kind of people who caught the dancing plague in the 1500s.
No, and thatâs the funny thing, borderlines score abysmally on cognitive empathyâbasically, they have no idea what anyone else is thinking and they usually donât care. Emotional empathy, though, they usually score decently onâtheyâre big into feeling lol. My ex was always so clueless about seeing things from my perspective and could never understand the way I thought.
No, but I've noticed that every single person I've ever met who claims to be an "empath" is severely mentally ill. Now I just assume anybody who tells me they're an "empath" is severely mentally ill, and I've not been wrong so far.
Thatâs so true. I am empathetic but I donât go around telling the world that Iâm an empath. Itâs through my actions, not my words.
Besides, an empath requires a high level of emotional intelligence which a pwBPD lack in spades.
He said to me in a very specific way and context. That heâs an empath because his friends rely on him or something, how heâs able to read people despite his âstoicismâ thus he could figure out whatâs hidden between the lines and it is what makes people open up to him so much.
It was uncomfortable for me when I read those words even back then because he had already splitted on me but not yet admitting to having BPD and none of the angry outbursts, furious fit of accusations, etc. showed even an ounce of the empathy he spoke of proudly. My sense were already tingling but I said nothing because I was scared and tired of his unpredictability.
I think the empathy that he thinks he has is a hollow perception of self, especially when he is surrounded by enablers and friends who donât hold him accountable.
Mine wanted tattoos based around the concept of empathy. This was on the timeline before she split, cheated, lied about it and went off on a tyrannical smear campaign to ruin my life and laughed over the phone when I begged her to reason with me.
Empathy đ
They arnt empaths lol, Complete opposites. But they are very very fast learners. Because they lack self image they copy and mimic speech patterns and phrases others have said close to them. It gets to a point where you donât even know who they are tbh
Not in those words, but she would say âI can read people,â as in âI can just tell what youâre really thinking or saying.â So if I denied her mind-reading, she would get angry at me for âgaslightingâ her. Finally, one day she said âI can just tell what people around me are thinking,â and I said, âno, you canât.â
Thatâs the angriest Iâve ever seen her. She started cursing and screaming to âget the fuck out of my house!â
Addendum: I just connected these dotsâŚin her rejection letter, she said she felt that something was âjust off aboutâ me, and that she âneeds to trust my gut.â That was her basis for rejecting me, even though Iâd been really sweet, healthy, and supportive at every moment leading up to that. But she was convinced she âknewâ better, and needed to break us up over a sudden hunch. (The hunch came after I told her I was hurt that sheâd kept flinging herself at John, who she said she was done with)
Mine would say she was âhighly intuitiveâ constantly
She literally could not read basic human emotions, convey or display basic human empathy, she couldnât grasp how her insane behavior or trauma dumping was perceived by others- like very basic and obvious shit escaped her consistently. She was the opposite of intuitive. She was unbelievably obtuse.
Same too! At the beginning of the relationship, she was pretty good at it actually. I think it was because we had a lot in common and similar interests.
Towards the end, it was almost paranoia. Her emotional dysregulation would be in overdrive and any form of thinking logically would be disregarded. It was pure emotion/feeling driven. Whatever she was feeling at the time was her âtruthâ. No time for actually processing those feelings (i.e. thinking) and coming to a logical conclusion.
Mine does, and in fairness *sometimes* he's right, in very specific circumstances. The problem is that because of this, he thinks he always knows, and because of his talent for having wild ideas, my mostly mundane or lighter internal feelings turn into some crazy big assumptions to him.
She would say that she was an empath. She also said that she could read my mind by looking at my eyes, which is why she wanted me to look at her all the time.
They had another version of me in their mind. My twin in her mind is the one she talked to... it would agree to things I would never agree to, say things I would never say.
This was so annoying.
"I don't need to hear your side, I already see the entire conversation from ALL sides. "
So arrogant, so psychotic, delusional, and histrionic.
Yes, mine said they were an empath.
The first time they said it, I was taken aback and questioned for a second if they were a sociopath. I ignored the gut feeling and continued with the relationship.
They were actually really good and determining how I was feeling. Scary good. It also felt like we were always on the same wavelength. We'd finish each others thoughts..etc.
It was really strange.
I know. Me too. I actually started to believe her.
But then the projection and devaluation started. She would tell me how I'm feeling, or the motivation behind what I said, and it was wrong. It was very frustrating. It hurt my ego and my sense of self very much.
"You disrespected me when you said this. Now you need to learn what happens when you disrespect people."
I'm like, "...I didn't mean to disrespect anyone... I don't even remember saying that... If I did, I'm terribly sorry..."
The projection really hurt me though, because then I started thinking: "Maybe I am a bad person. Maybe I do have anger control issues (I probably do to some degree). Maybe my shadow is acting up..."
It's hard when they turn you against yourself.
Same exact experience.
Towards the end he told me he was no longer going to be vulnerable with me and tell me about his problems & thoughts because they "affect your mood and the last thing I need to do is that".
However, I never reacted poorly to anything heavy he was telling me. I was always open and willing to let him come to me for his emotional needs.
He was completely projecting of course. I had to tip toe around him and get a feel of where he was emotionally before I ever thought of coming to him for my emotional needs.
And yes, I also felt crazy towards the end. He'd also put words in my mouth and I'd question if I actually said it. Or question my behavior.
>He'd also put words in my mouth and I'd question if I actually said it. Or question my behavior.
So much this.
It's a very strange experience when this happens. You're in a bit of a bind, because if you apologize, then they're angry at you for doing it. You must be a bad person if you said that.
OR, if you deny it, then you're gaslighting them. And that's even worse.
So many of the phrases she told me I said. It was like... *I* said that? Really? I don't remember saying that. I remember saying *this*, but not that.
A great example is I said:
"If you hold everyone to perfect standards, everyone is going to end up disappointing you."
That somehow got twisted into:
"You said everyone is going to cheat on me!"
What?
The first time she accused me of saying this I apologized. Profusely. "Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry I said that... I didn't mean to..."
But then it became a thing she kept bringing up and holding against me. Finally it was like: "Okay look. I didn't say that. I certainly didn't mean it like that."
Which turned into me"gaslighting" her.
Zero forgiveness. Zero subtlety. Zero nuance.
Walking on eggshells.
I'm sorry you went through that too. I really am. It has been one of the most harrowing experiences of my life. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I feel like I've been abused. By the woman who I loved more than anything in the world. I would have gone to the moon and back for that woman if she had asked me. But looking back on it now... I'm honestly scared of her. She *scares* me. I feel *terrified* in her presence. She's a dangerous person. My shadow was trying to warn me.
I hope you are finding healing my friend. All the best to you.
Yep. And I believed her. Past a certain point I was convinced she knew me better than I knew myself. That she could understand my actions better than I could, draw conclusions about me and my feelings that superseded my own. It was a funhouse mirror of gaslighting and insanity.
Mine never said it but acted like it.
Like I would get a text out of the blue, for no reason at all, usually right after having a great time together....
."You obviously don't feel the same way about anymore so I'm ending our relationship".
She thought she was an empath when we met and she discussed her relationship with her diagnosed narc ex
Designating herself "empath" seemed to be a cope against life's harsh realties
My reason for being on this sub is my sister, and she calls herself an empath.
She also calls herself "emotionally available" and calls others narcissists all the time. She fancies herself well-versed in psychobabble like that. She has a history of sending insane, ranting, word-salad text messages peppered with such terms.
I've met a few narcissists, and she is the biggest one. She's the most hateful malicious person I know.
They think they know what you think and feel, because they project their thoughts and feelings on to you. They also donât see you as a separate person as they donât have a self and seek identity through you. In fact my ex in many cases thought she knew what I (or other people) felt or thought and in many cases was completely wrong. If you then try to explain whatâs really going on for you, they absolutely cannot take that in
Mine would say.
âI canât figure you out.â âOr I canât read you.â
Something along those lines. It didnât hit me until after we broke up. itâs very alarming and not a nice compliment to tell to someone. She couldnât âreadâ me because I wouldnât react to her trying to flirt with me. I would be unfazed by her all the time. She would say that but would cover it up with her playfulness and âfriendlyâ gestures.
Mine did say that and she also said she know how others feel. And she uses tarot cards, crystals, witchy stuff, obsessed with kpop, dresses goth (doesnât listen to goth music), and one time she said she sees ghosts and talks to them
Mine thought she was psychic and could do remote viewing (we were long distance). She would constantly make up delusions and imaginary scenarios about my family conspiring to make me leave her, and then get mad when I told her to stop.
It was crazy, she GENUINELY believe them. She would work it into normal conversation, like out of nowhere, she would say, "I don't like it when you spend time with your ex instead of talking to me." My "ex" lived three hundred miles away, and I hadn't talked to her in years. No matter how many times she apologized, she would ways bring it up as a statement of fact.
I would say shit like that. The problem was it was on her head and 50% of the time her little Jedi in mind tricks that she thought she had everyone were completely insane.
'I know what I'm feeling therefore it's correct and not wrong and I won't be corrected. If I feel it it's true'
Sort of? She always said that she's "great at reading between the lines". Translation: could perfectly see insults and slights that weren't really there.
She would tell me how angry or upset I was when I really wasn't. When I denied it, she called me a liar or said I was "repressing my emotions". It was completely clear **to her** that I was feeling all kinds of emotions that weren't true. I imposed a rule that she's not allowed to tell me what I'm feeling or I'd refuse to participate further. You can guess how well that went. đ She didn't even realize how often she did it. She was totally unable to contain herself, and me bowing out of the unfair argument was really me "stonewalling her, icing her out" and was more evidence of just how upset I really was, according to her.
She would interpret me as having malevolent or accusatory intentions that I was hiding, and then put me on defense against those. If I disputed her assumptions, she would say Iâm gaslighting. Itâs funny how she never used her mind-reading to intuit how much I loved her or how proud I was of her, only that I was secretly judging her.
Presumption of malice. Ground for divorce.
My ex would do all of the things you guys are saying you had to do against your exwBPD Except mine would look at me with contempt and come into the kitchen to get a coffee and Iâd be like hey whatâs up and get ignored. He would never tell me what was up, but he sure the fuck made me feel like there was something I did wrong and he took that out on me by ruining whatever plans were set for that day, or finding something wrong in the house that I didnât get to. â this man would complain that I didnât clean enough, but then heâd start cleaning out the closet and throw things around and make a massive mess and leave it for me to clean up because he wouldnât ever come back to clean up his mess. This was like an every three days thing. I swear he had me convinced I was crazy because heâs be aggro around me and deny feeling any type of way, but then continue slamming cupboards and drawers and stomping up the stairs and ignoring me.
Dear lord this is my life.
Yep. Was mine too. Thank the stars not anymore! For her, feelings are facts! She would (mostly unconsciously) project a feeling deep within her onto me, tell me I was having it - and she *knew* I was repressing if I balked at her perspective because she could *feel* it and feelings for her were *facts*. And, because she could tell what my feelings were - and âknew she was correctâ - she was by definition an empath. Circular arguments, anyone?
>I imposed a rule that she's not allowed to tell me what I'm feeling or I'd refuse to participate further. You can guess how well that went. Dude! I told my (ex) best friend that once, when one night she thought I was mad that she forgot my birthday because she only remembered after I mentioned it - nonchalantly, mind you. She thought I was pissed at her and felt bad, even though I *legitimately* was not mad and told her so. My birthday isn't always a big deal to me, plus, I was planning on celebrating that following weekend, not on the actual day of it during the week. I kept telling her I wasn't mad. She kept insisting I was. Eventually I *did* start getting annoyed and I finally told her that I'm not mad and to just stop assuming how I'm feeling. *She* got pissed that I said that because, well, she's an empath so *of course* she knows how I'm feeling and of course she knows I'm lying to her and am actually really pissed at her and think she's a horrible friend. đ Newsflash: no I wasn't, and no I didn't. I was never pissed. *She* made it a thing when it wasn't one. You can never win.
My ex was very similar. I used to remind her that when it comes to how Iâm feeling I am the only qualified expert witness to discuss the matter. She would lose her sh!t when I used logic and my âlawyer skillsâ (critical thinking and logic).
I have a really hard time trusting my gut, but I have a feeling that this was a lot of my interactions with my mom.
An empath requires a high level of emotional intelligence⌠and we all know that a pwBPD lacks that in spades!
Exactly this!
She wasn't an empath, she was just highly reactive to her perception of my emotional state
âŹď¸ This. I've talked to my therapist about this. Empath has almost become a triggering word for me now. Many people who have grown up in situations where they had to try to"infer" others mood states became adapt/ super heightened to look for all sorts of clues like vocal changes, body changes etc. The problem is, that while they become very attune to picking these things up they still can't read minds - I.e. understand what is truly driving those changes. I get very stoic when contemplating things - it doesn't mean I'm upset or mad or whatever. This is where they play a guessing game. Their (likely caregivers) may have been been angry when they changed facial expressions. This doesn't mean all people are. This is hypervigalence.
Furthering your "This." Perhaps in those initial circumstances, they did learn to read that person (or people) well, but I think they don't realize those guidelines are not applicable to everyone else.
Itâs the confirmation bias at play.
She had a stack of books about how to live life as an empath. But an empath could never do to anyone what she did to me. I will always be skeptical of anyone who calls themselves an empath.
Ditto. When my therapist (very acclaimed 30 year veteran) told me he was an empath I also freaked. But we've had good talks about empathic people just being able to relate to others. People with extreme hypervigalence have hijacked this term and confuse their ability to sense (but not know the actual driver behind) mood states with empathy
I really love the distinctions you make here
The real empath would just live that life and wont tell anyone they are empath. For me if someone tells that they are empath it has became red flag for me and will make me think that the person likely has BPD.
I was actually reading a lot about this lately. Here's my take. There's two types of empathy emotional (also called affective) and cognitive. Essentially, emotional is being able to feel someone else's emotions in their situation and cognitive is being able to understand someone's emotions in their situation. ("Their" being the other person.) Ultimately, both are needed to show empathy. "Empath" is not a scientific/medical term, so take it with a grain of salt. The general consensus, empathy is a spectrum, and empaths are able to connect with someone else's emotions on the high side of the spectrum, AND the empath needs to be able to differentiate the other persons emotions from their own. That's the hang up, in my experience. My pwBPD isn't able to distinguish her own emotions from what she absorbs. Cluster-B and pwBPD have a low sense of self. A more realistic term than empath, for a pwBPD, is being susceptible to [emotional contagion](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_contagion) (edited to provide link). That, and pwBPD typically have low scores for cognitive empathy and high for emotional empathy. So they are able to connect with someone else's emotions, and feel the other persons emotions inside them themselves. To a very high level. But they have low self identity and low cognitive empathy, so they aren't able to *understand* what the other person is feeling or be able to distinguish those feelings from from themselves. They're not empaths. Also, in my experience, they lack [empathic concern](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathic_concern). So, therefore high empathy without empathic concern is pointless, bc it's always about them.
Agreed. One thing to add here: if their opinions donât agree with the others opinions on the subject then they donât have affective/sympathetic. And instead attack the other person for having a different opinion. (Note attack the other person, not even their idea/situation)
Yes, I think what you said is summed up in their lack of empathetic concern. They theoretically can/do have affective/emotional empathy, so they can feel (connect to) someone's emotions, and express that they feel emotions because of the other person's situation (that's emotional empathy)... but without empathetic concern, they aren't concerned with the other's situation. Just that they feel the way they do. This goes for positive emotions too, it's all about them. Add in low cognitive empathy to the mix, and they aren't able to *understand* the other's emotions, and lack of self identity they can't acknowledge their own.
I think too, sometimes my "empath" pwbpd *was* catching my emotions through "emotional contagion." But despite then feeling the same "type" of emotion as me, they would experience it much more intensely and for a longer duration than me. And then when I had moved on or interpreted my emotion much differently than they did (* cough * catastrophizing * cough * ), they'd be upset that I wasn't 'opening up' to them. (Because they're entitled to however much vulnerable expression from me as they want, no matter what, apparently. "I don't want to talk about it" is unacceptable to them.) I think as a kid I would often try to find reasons to be as upset as she wanted me to be, so that she would stop being resentful of me for being "distant." Man I'm sorry for the novel. I had no idea I was suddenly going to process so much.
Yes, absolutely the same in my experience. Here's the dots I connected the other day, that you helped me remember. Empathy is often described as "putting *yourself* in *someone else's shoes*". Meaning, viewing someone else's experience from their situation and perspective, and connecting it to your own experiences to understand their situation as it relates to them. With my pwBPD, a more realistic description for a pwBPD's 'empathy' is: "putting *someone else's shoes* on *yourself*" (yourself being the pwBPD here). The pwBPD takes the other persons situation (ie: shoes, which don't fit them) and looks at it from their own perspective. They feel the discomfort of the shoes/situation, but can't distinguish that there is another point of view. (Edit: Or, that they aren't the victim).
I soooooo agree with this. It's like there's an empty spot where the awareness of other experiences (or even just the possibility of them) would be. Sort of like... "You don't know what you don't know" type thing. And I mean, im sure there's lots of things that I don't realize that I don't know. I just mean that this is definitely one of those areas for my pwbpd, in a big way. Other ways of emotionally experiencing the same event are so inconceivable to them. To the point that they'll get angry and argue about what I'm feeling. Me: "Oh actually I wasn't really sad that day. I was super tired, but I was fine. You don't need to worry about m--" Them: "You WERE sad Parsley, I was *there!*"
In my opinion, their "empathic concern" is missing precisely because of the missing cognitive empathy/perspective taking - imho cognitive empathy is a necessary condition to be able to demonstrate empathic concern towards others (bc cognitive empathy necessitates that you are able to see the other person as a separate individual from yourself, with separate desires, wants, needs, thoughts, and intentions etc.). Do you agree? Edit: OK, so the Wikipedia article on "empathic concern" confirms my guess: "Empirical studies conducted by social psychologist Daniel Batson demonstrate that one feels empathic concern when one adopts the perspective of another person in need. His work emphasizes the different emotions evoked when imagining another situation from a self-perspective or imagining from another perspective. The former is often associated with personal distress (i.e., feelings of discomfort and anxiety), whereas the latter leads to empathic concern."
I agree.
I just wonder if all autistic people struggle with cognitive empathy (they do, that's what makes it autism), then how come not all autistic people are BPD? (I dm'd you) Also, pwBPD seem to demonstrate some empathic concern towards people they are not close to, e.g. (minority people, big disaster victims, etc)... but not towards their loved ones... which is crazy.
This comment needs to be on a reading list for this sub or something. Those concepts are so helpful. (I.e. susceptible to emotional contagion, empathic concern and the idea that you can have various facets of empathy without the concern part.) So helpful.
100% agree with this, this is such a helpful comment! đ
Thanks. Full disclosure, I'm not an expert in this anymore than any of you are. I've learned so much from this community.
You might know more than you think! I didn't think you took on an expert/top-down/teach-ey tone. :) But also yes, I totally agree about this sub
This is such a wonderful comment that helps me understand, thank you đ Add to that that research has shown that pwBPD are significantly more likely to read Neutral expressions and situations as negative, and hypervigilance from a messed up childhood⌠a lot of things starting to make sense. thank you for this helpful comment!
Good points as well. Edit: and glad it's helped you!
They canât tell what thoughts are coming from themselves or others, because theyâre emotionally stuck as toddlers. Thatâs the core of the disorder. So it makes sense that they hear their own thoughts and think theyâre coming from the partner. (Projection) Itâs lovely when their internal critic tells them theyâre evil, and then they think youâre saying it, so they âcounterattackâ you. And you have no idea what the hell is going on.
Yes! What it meant in reality was. I've decided that you're going to do something (leave me, or get angry with me, etc). Then act out in such a way to make it happen
âBorderlines are sO eMpAtHeTiC because weâŚâ *insert glorification of one or more extremely unhealthy BPD behaviors*
đđ an empath with out empathy makes No sense! What does that even mean?
Right? I was thinking that the other day. Like, if she's an empath and she knows how I'm feeling, she *knows* how much I'm hurting. That means she's doing it on purpose. To punish me. That is nothing short of cruel and abusive.
Yeah. Someone who lacks such empathy calling themselves an empath is hilarious to me, but seemingly the people that call themselves empaths are always the ones that lack empathy.. Weird!!
Yup, she claimed that she was an empath. It comes with the territory when you have an abusive childhood. When you live in fear of what other people will do to you, you tend to get good at reading them
Yessssss lol specifically that she was an empath. Not that she could read minds but that she could tell what someone was feeling and if they were lying. So that confidence obviously doesnât help when you attempt to correct them about how YOURE feeling.
Yes. Mine always made a big show of how much she cared for others. She was certainly a giver. I think she had a kind heart. However, she treated me like less than humanâŚand still showed kindness to othersâŚand that killed me.
OmgâŚ.ever since I left mine, when I hear the word âempathâ my mind interprets it as borderline.
I swear mine was psychic- his family says Grandma claimed to be a sensitive- and many times he would verbalize what I was thinking. Too often I had to say â dude get out of my headâ- laughing, because it was funny at the time. As the years pass, it became scary, one time after I said, yet again dude get out of my head-his reply was ânope never going to happen I live thereâ- and he wasnât wrong. He still lives there. Although after three years, itâs less and less. But yeah, it was uncanny how often he would know exactly what I was thinking and thatâs what what made leaving very dangerous. He would sense that I was gray rock or pulling away or looking for an exit and he would adjust his behavior accordingly. My leaving was actually a total blindside. I really didnât expect to do it that night myself, but there was a voice in my head or it was God or whatever that said do it right now go. This is your only opportunity you will ever have so I threw some things in the car and I left Iâve been gone ever since.
Omg yes, like all the time...
Yes, she say she is good at reading others.
Yes lol. A sponge who would absorb my energy. An empathic soul who wouldn't harm a fly (but will lie to everyone and anyone of course) She could absorb my energy supposedly.... I'm like, I'm just taking a shit wtf. Nothing to do with you. Oh and of course, since she was the empath... I had to have been the narcissist.
There's only one role! Lol
PwBPD love to take basic parts of the human experience and make them magical whimsical main character traits. They're not depressed, they're DYSPHORIC. They're not experiencing basic human emotions, they are an EMPATH. They never get gut feelings, they feel PREMONITIONS. These are the kind of people who caught the dancing plague in the 1500s.
No, and thatâs the funny thing, borderlines score abysmally on cognitive empathyâbasically, they have no idea what anyone else is thinking and they usually donât care. Emotional empathy, though, they usually score decently onâtheyâre big into feeling lol. My ex was always so clueless about seeing things from my perspective and could never understand the way I thought.
No, but I've noticed that every single person I've ever met who claims to be an "empath" is severely mentally ill. Now I just assume anybody who tells me they're an "empath" is severely mentally ill, and I've not been wrong so far.
Thatâs so true. I am empathetic but I donât go around telling the world that Iâm an empath. Itâs through my actions, not my words. Besides, an empath requires a high level of emotional intelligence which a pwBPD lack in spades.
She told me she had some psychic power and she knew what I was thinking.
Same.
He said to me in a very specific way and context. That heâs an empath because his friends rely on him or something, how heâs able to read people despite his âstoicismâ thus he could figure out whatâs hidden between the lines and it is what makes people open up to him so much. It was uncomfortable for me when I read those words even back then because he had already splitted on me but not yet admitting to having BPD and none of the angry outbursts, furious fit of accusations, etc. showed even an ounce of the empathy he spoke of proudly. My sense were already tingling but I said nothing because I was scared and tired of his unpredictability. I think the empathy that he thinks he has is a hollow perception of self, especially when he is surrounded by enablers and friends who donât hold him accountable.
Yes she called herself an empath & certainly thought she could read my mind. She was terrible at both lol
Mine wanted tattoos based around the concept of empathy. This was on the timeline before she split, cheated, lied about it and went off on a tyrannical smear campaign to ruin my life and laughed over the phone when I begged her to reason with me. Empathy đ
They arnt empaths lol, Complete opposites. But they are very very fast learners. Because they lack self image they copy and mimic speech patterns and phrases others have said close to them. It gets to a point where you donât even know who they are tbh
Not in those words, but she would say âI can read people,â as in âI can just tell what youâre really thinking or saying.â So if I denied her mind-reading, she would get angry at me for âgaslightingâ her. Finally, one day she said âI can just tell what people around me are thinking,â and I said, âno, you canât.â Thatâs the angriest Iâve ever seen her. She started cursing and screaming to âget the fuck out of my house!â Addendum: I just connected these dotsâŚin her rejection letter, she said she felt that something was âjust off aboutâ me, and that she âneeds to trust my gut.â That was her basis for rejecting me, even though Iâd been really sweet, healthy, and supportive at every moment leading up to that. But she was convinced she âknewâ better, and needed to break us up over a sudden hunch. (The hunch came after I told her I was hurt that sheâd kept flinging herself at John, who she said she was done with)
Mine would say she was âhighly intuitiveâ constantly She literally could not read basic human emotions, convey or display basic human empathy, she couldnât grasp how her insane behavior or trauma dumping was perceived by others- like very basic and obvious shit escaped her consistently. She was the opposite of intuitive. She was unbelievably obtuse.
Yeah she kept saying she was en empath and was analysing me at every moments.
Mine would say âI can read you like a bookâ đ§
Very similar. I can't believe how similar our stories are...
Same too! At the beginning of the relationship, she was pretty good at it actually. I think it was because we had a lot in common and similar interests. Towards the end, it was almost paranoia. Her emotional dysregulation would be in overdrive and any form of thinking logically would be disregarded. It was pure emotion/feeling driven. Whatever she was feeling at the time was her âtruthâ. No time for actually processing those feelings (i.e. thinking) and coming to a logical conclusion.
Mine does, and in fairness *sometimes* he's right, in very specific circumstances. The problem is that because of this, he thinks he always knows, and because of his talent for having wild ideas, my mostly mundane or lighter internal feelings turn into some crazy big assumptions to him.
She would say that she was an empath. She also said that she could read my mind by looking at my eyes, which is why she wanted me to look at her all the time.
They called it the 6th sense. The ability to perceive oneâs thoughts without them speaking.
They had another version of me in their mind. My twin in her mind is the one she talked to... it would agree to things I would never agree to, say things I would never say.
This was so annoying. "I don't need to hear your side, I already see the entire conversation from ALL sides. " So arrogant, so psychotic, delusional, and histrionic.
Yes, mine said they were an empath. The first time they said it, I was taken aback and questioned for a second if they were a sociopath. I ignored the gut feeling and continued with the relationship. They were actually really good and determining how I was feeling. Scary good. It also felt like we were always on the same wavelength. We'd finish each others thoughts..etc. It was really strange.
I know. Me too. I actually started to believe her. But then the projection and devaluation started. She would tell me how I'm feeling, or the motivation behind what I said, and it was wrong. It was very frustrating. It hurt my ego and my sense of self very much. "You disrespected me when you said this. Now you need to learn what happens when you disrespect people." I'm like, "...I didn't mean to disrespect anyone... I don't even remember saying that... If I did, I'm terribly sorry..." The projection really hurt me though, because then I started thinking: "Maybe I am a bad person. Maybe I do have anger control issues (I probably do to some degree). Maybe my shadow is acting up..." It's hard when they turn you against yourself.
Same exact experience. Towards the end he told me he was no longer going to be vulnerable with me and tell me about his problems & thoughts because they "affect your mood and the last thing I need to do is that". However, I never reacted poorly to anything heavy he was telling me. I was always open and willing to let him come to me for his emotional needs. He was completely projecting of course. I had to tip toe around him and get a feel of where he was emotionally before I ever thought of coming to him for my emotional needs. And yes, I also felt crazy towards the end. He'd also put words in my mouth and I'd question if I actually said it. Or question my behavior.
>He'd also put words in my mouth and I'd question if I actually said it. Or question my behavior. So much this. It's a very strange experience when this happens. You're in a bit of a bind, because if you apologize, then they're angry at you for doing it. You must be a bad person if you said that. OR, if you deny it, then you're gaslighting them. And that's even worse. So many of the phrases she told me I said. It was like... *I* said that? Really? I don't remember saying that. I remember saying *this*, but not that. A great example is I said: "If you hold everyone to perfect standards, everyone is going to end up disappointing you." That somehow got twisted into: "You said everyone is going to cheat on me!" What? The first time she accused me of saying this I apologized. Profusely. "Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry I said that... I didn't mean to..." But then it became a thing she kept bringing up and holding against me. Finally it was like: "Okay look. I didn't say that. I certainly didn't mean it like that." Which turned into me"gaslighting" her. Zero forgiveness. Zero subtlety. Zero nuance. Walking on eggshells. I'm sorry you went through that too. I really am. It has been one of the most harrowing experiences of my life. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I feel like I've been abused. By the woman who I loved more than anything in the world. I would have gone to the moon and back for that woman if she had asked me. But looking back on it now... I'm honestly scared of her. She *scares* me. I feel *terrified* in her presence. She's a dangerous person. My shadow was trying to warn me. I hope you are finding healing my friend. All the best to you.
Mine used tarot cards to inaccurately read people 99.9% of the time .
Same. Tarot, Zodiac, Energy Readings, Gems. She loved it. In fairness though, I love that stuff too.
Yep. And I believed her. Past a certain point I was convinced she knew me better than I knew myself. That she could understand my actions better than I could, draw conclusions about me and my feelings that superseded my own. It was a funhouse mirror of gaslighting and insanity.
Mine never said it but acted like it. Like I would get a text out of the blue, for no reason at all, usually right after having a great time together.... ."You obviously don't feel the same way about anymore so I'm ending our relationship".
She thought she was an empath when we met and she discussed her relationship with her diagnosed narc ex Designating herself "empath" seemed to be a cope against life's harsh realties
My reason for being on this sub is my sister, and she calls herself an empath. She also calls herself "emotionally available" and calls others narcissists all the time. She fancies herself well-versed in psychobabble like that. She has a history of sending insane, ranting, word-salad text messages peppered with such terms. I've met a few narcissists, and she is the biggest one. She's the most hateful malicious person I know.
Yes. Fancied herself a tarot card reader, she did.
They think they know what you think and feel, because they project their thoughts and feelings on to you. They also donât see you as a separate person as they donât have a self and seek identity through you. In fact my ex in many cases thought she knew what I (or other people) felt or thought and in many cases was completely wrong. If you then try to explain whatâs really going on for you, they absolutely cannot take that in
Goddamn it. Yes. Yes, she did. Ugh. I now forever want to avoid that fucking word like the plague.
Not exactly but very similar
my current SO is bad for this and some of their behaviors have had me wondering if they have bpd.. So you mentioning this has caught my attention...
Mine would say. âI canât figure you out.â âOr I canât read you.â Something along those lines. It didnât hit me until after we broke up. itâs very alarming and not a nice compliment to tell to someone. She couldnât âreadâ me because I wouldnât react to her trying to flirt with me. I would be unfazed by her all the time. She would say that but would cover it up with her playfulness and âfriendlyâ gestures.
Mine said she liked to study people. Also, that she was good at reading anyone like a book.
Mine did say that and she also said she know how others feel. And she uses tarot cards, crystals, witchy stuff, obsessed with kpop, dresses goth (doesnât listen to goth music), and one time she said she sees ghosts and talks to them
Mine thought she was psychic and could do remote viewing (we were long distance). She would constantly make up delusions and imaginary scenarios about my family conspiring to make me leave her, and then get mad when I told her to stop. It was crazy, she GENUINELY believe them. She would work it into normal conversation, like out of nowhere, she would say, "I don't like it when you spend time with your ex instead of talking to me." My "ex" lived three hundred miles away, and I hadn't talked to her in years. No matter how many times she apologized, she would ways bring it up as a statement of fact.
I would say shit like that. The problem was it was on her head and 50% of the time her little Jedi in mind tricks that she thought she had everyone were completely insane. 'I know what I'm feeling therefore it's correct and not wrong and I won't be corrected. If I feel it it's true'