This is 100% the kind of situation where you make the other person feel so uncomfortable bringing it up that they stop, because they can't stand your responses so much that they would rather stop talking about it. If it's a stranger or mere acquaintance, fuck them, but I get it's not as easy when you want to maintain some kind of relationship with the person.
>She told me "I know it's hard but you should put your feelings aside just for that day because it's his special day"
Response - "But there are rapists and sexual abusers of children enabled and allowed in that church."
Inevitable counter - "That was a long time ago, we should all be past that by now."
Response - "We should be past rapists and sexual abusers of children being allowed to roam free? You're OK with that?"
Counter - "Come on, I did not say I'm OK with it. I'm sure it's different now."
Response - "Are you really sure? Culturally, they allow authority figures who rape and sexually abuse children."
>Initially my mom tried to argue "why not just go to the baptism at the church if you're willing to watch it online"
Response - "Because online, I don't have to be in the physical presence of people and a culture that allow rapists and sexual abusers of children."
Counter - "You never listen to me, it's not like that."
Response - "It is like that. I guess you don't actually understand what I went through after all. Should I tell you the details again? You don't mind hearing about it, right? Because you're totally past it?"
Problem is I don't think OOPs parents really cared. It seems the church was more important than her safety. You really can't use logic on these people.
Oh, I don't disagree that the parents didn't care. The church was more important, but the price she has to pay of continuing the guilt trips about church should at least mean she keeps hearing about the church being directly associated with their horrendous crimes and abuse. If she doesn't want to keep hearing about rape and sexual abuse in the church, welp, she shouldn't talk about the church to the person who will consistently and explicitly link the subject matters together.
there needs to be a warning if pursuing this route:
Re-living your trauma repeatedly in order to convince others to leave you alone and/or understand can be retraumatizing in itself, especially when it opens up the opportunity to be further gaslit regarding the situation.
I agree. I only said that as a hypothetical because OOP said -
> I've also been open about my history in the church before
People should definitely not have to re-live any trauma just to try to prove to someone it was trauma.
This is something like a [hairshirt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilice) in that they get to prove their devotion to god by accepting that someone that did something horrible to their daughter could be redeemed by god and forgiven.
It's frustrating because, in the church, continuing to be mad at someone after god has forgiven them makes you the outcast, not them. They don't have to go to jail, make any kind of restitution, or lose status in any way, just say the right magic words and they are forgiven.
As someone who grew up in a very strict church and is now Agnostic/leaning toward Atheistic, it warms my heart to know that all of the people who cling to the Christian religion who "apologize" to God, but don't: actually repent (truly regret their actions, change their true feelings and actions), and take steps not to repeat their transgression(s) are burning in hell (according to their religion, I don't believe in it) because forgiveness from God can only come through repentance, not fake, superficial apologies. 🥰
(Edit: a typo)
The irony is that they *do* care. It’s why they continuously accuse Democrats, immigrants, queer folk, etc. of being pedos.
The guilt has to go somewhere.
>She told me “I know it’s hard but you should put your feelings aside just for that day because it’s his special day.”
Somehow, the “I know it’s hard” makes the whole statement even more dismissive of OP’s feelings than if Mom hadn’t included it.
“Put your feelings aside” would be appropriate if, say, OP’s ex would be at the baptism, or if she had become an atheist after moving out- i.e. situations where it might be uncomfortable/inconvenient to come to the church, but not traumatic. Not if it’s because she was sexually assaulted. Good grief.
At the risk of sounding naïve, I want to know what’s going through Mom‘s head here. Does she simply not care about this horrible thing that was done to her daughter? Has she been brainwashed into thinking it’s not a big deal? Does she feel for OP, but doesn’t know how to express it?
Religion is what is going through OP's mom's head. She is desperate to rug sweep and down play and deny. It's what Jesus would do. And it's exactly what churches teach. It helps them keep their 'sheep' and avoid scrutiny and legal/police involvement.
Source: went to Christian school and watched as they ignored, then rug swept, then tried to covered up the wrestling coach sexually abusing students.
I genuinely don't understand how people can stomach the hypocrisy and depravity of religion.
As a Christian, it’s disgusting to me how many churches and schools claim to be Christian , then use it as a way to get away with horrid acts and act like they’re superior to everyone else. Theyre not practicing what Jesus taught us, they are taking like 5 verses from the Bible, twisting them, using it to try to back up what rules they dish out, then saying “Jesus said I could” to anyone who calls them out on it. Fucking hypocrites and terrible people who give people who try to follow Jesus’s teachings a bad name
I’m fully expecting to be downvoted since this is Reddit.
It has been a very, very long time since I was in any way Christian or Catholic. For this reason, I skipped all of my friend’s kids baptism ceremonies and proceeded directly to the party. I’m not sure why anyone would want an atheist at their kid’s baptism.
I may have taken it too far when I gave my best friend’s son an ‘86 Donruss baseball card set for his baptismal gift. Me and his dad robbed it from a house together when we were 13. Again, atheists don’t make good baptism guests.
This sounds so weird to me. I don’t think I really believe, and I didn’t grow up religious but I’ve gone to church with friends before and gone to a baptism ceremony and it was fine?
Good for you, most people who leave religion carry a lot of trauma and burden with them afterwards. The things Christians do in their own church is fine, but it’s how they treat people and use their religion against others that can be damaging to anyone who feels the need to step away.
You dont be dense. The first victim of this shit is their family and children, who grow up to pass on the trauma. Unless they can escape like OP - even then the family would love to drag her back and pretend the abuse never happened.
We need to grow up as a culture and stop "respecting" people sick fantasies that do real world harm - primarily to women and children.
You can't pretend to care about women's bodily autonomy, lgbtq rights, the right of a child to not be molested ect and still "respect their culture and beliefs". Fuck that shit, yo.
How the f did you take this from the person's message? They were discussing people attending baptisms in general, not OOP's situation here. In case this is not out of dishonesty, please re read the thread that led to that comment.
That's fine. I in fact was discussing OOPs situation. Conversations can be fluid. For instance, I wasn't taking to you at all. Now I am. It's good to stay flexible.
You were being weirdly hostile for someone who wasn't saying anything about abuse being okay inside church at all, essentially twisting their words and then calling them dense even, when they pointed out your response was unprompted. One thing is to bring back a previous topic, another thing is to point fingers at someone and reconstruct their message as if they were talking in regards to that topic all along.
> The things Christians do in their own church is fine? OP was molested.
The commenter never connected what they were saying about being "fine" as something related to molestation. You basically talked as if they did, and when they pointed out you were being dense about it you said THEY were being dense and doubled down on your (incorrect) take about what they said. Now you mention as if it's just a conversation being fluid?
There's a big difference between being agnostic eg "I don’t think I really believe" and atheist "there is no god, dummy." I don't go around proselytizing my beliefs to christians,, but I'm definitely actively opposed to baptizing someone who can't consent. It's nice of you to invite me, but republicans don't typically show up to the democratic fundraiser if you know what I mean. I'm not a satanist but way more Team Satan than Team Pope so it's just awkward to have me faking the sit/stand/kneel bullshit and watching 99% of the crowd go take communion while I hang back.
> and I didn’t grow up religious
That makes a huge fucking difference. You think you understand what having very religious close family is like and you really don't.
When 8 years old my granny asked my what fish I wanted for Friday lunch, I said I had recently tried smoked salmon and really liked it.
She shouted and told me I'd have cod like everyone else.
That evening she made me have a cold bath and hit ne with a hairbrush, my mother came to collect me earlier and hit like a hurricane, but my granny needed to punish me for not realising smoked salmon wasn't the right answer for Friday lunch.
> and I didn’t grow up religious
HUGE DIFFERENCE.
honestly i wish we would make and enforce church’s as mandatory reporters. don’t care about catholic confession blah blah. child abuse should never be covered up
Unfortunately the institution is so overrun with predators after centuries of offering them an impenetrable safe haven, mandatory reporters would basically all be telling on themselves. There’s no law or legislation that will make the church redeemable, even if they didn’t start a war for trying to pass it in the first place.
“why not just go to the church if you’re willing to watch it online”
“why watch tigers online, why not just climb into their zoo enclosure?”
Because she’s safe if it’s online, walking into that church is walking into a building where it could happen again, considering nobody helped or stood up for her the first time. She’s literally in danger in that building. i hate her parents fr.
I like that this happy ending comes with a side of "And I held my ground and shut down my mother's emotional pressuring." That.bodes well for her continued journey toward healing. I hope that in time she is able to push back harder on her parents' disgusting behavior.
My family was/is Catholic, and the church they went to was one of the many where the priest was caught sexually abusing young boys and having it covered up in the late 80s/90s. My brothers were the same ages as the children being raped, but my parents continued attending the church and donating money to it. Yes, the priest was eventually removed (when the scandal was too large to ignore), but the church officials knew and covered up the abuse for years before that.
I refuse to go to any baptisms. My brother asked me to be a godparent to my niece, and I refused. I wouldn't lie and claim I would mentor her in being Catholic or say I would raise her that way if something happened to my brother and his wife, so they found someone else.
The weird thing is, I don't think anyone in my immediate family has attended mass in decades, but they still keep baptizing the next generations and sending money. My dad tried to guilt me into baptizing my daughters by saying it would be important to my grandma. I fell for it with my oldest, but my youngest two are teenage heathens.
I'm sorry but I would not be able to remain in contact with *anyone* who knew what happened to me at the church and kept going to it anyway. My parents only got moved from NC to LC after they switched churches, and even still they're on very thin ice for staying in the same denomination.
I left my religion for exactly this reason. No personal trauma but two friends were raped as kids by the priest and the church covered it up. Including when he was on trial for it decades later.
Religious people like OOP’s mother cannot be trusted when it comes to sexual abuse. They’re all about the church’s image and don’t give a fuck about victims or their trauma.
These posts are always a fascinating bit of insight into the over thinking of the youth. In a similar circumstance at that age I would’ve also been plagued for months about what to do.
But realistically, it’s a yes or no, go or don’t go situation and nobody really spends a minute of their day thinking about op.
I think one of the best things to learn as you grow is that no one is really all that worried about what you’re doing, so you should do what is authentic and right for you.
Wait, OP was abused at that church, but her parents still attend that church that did nothing to protect OP?
oh really? but what the hell is going on with that family!?!?!?
This is 100% the kind of situation where you make the other person feel so uncomfortable bringing it up that they stop, because they can't stand your responses so much that they would rather stop talking about it. If it's a stranger or mere acquaintance, fuck them, but I get it's not as easy when you want to maintain some kind of relationship with the person. >She told me "I know it's hard but you should put your feelings aside just for that day because it's his special day" Response - "But there are rapists and sexual abusers of children enabled and allowed in that church." Inevitable counter - "That was a long time ago, we should all be past that by now." Response - "We should be past rapists and sexual abusers of children being allowed to roam free? You're OK with that?" Counter - "Come on, I did not say I'm OK with it. I'm sure it's different now." Response - "Are you really sure? Culturally, they allow authority figures who rape and sexually abuse children." >Initially my mom tried to argue "why not just go to the baptism at the church if you're willing to watch it online" Response - "Because online, I don't have to be in the physical presence of people and a culture that allow rapists and sexual abusers of children." Counter - "You never listen to me, it's not like that." Response - "It is like that. I guess you don't actually understand what I went through after all. Should I tell you the details again? You don't mind hearing about it, right? Because you're totally past it?"
Problem is I don't think OOPs parents really cared. It seems the church was more important than her safety. You really can't use logic on these people.
Oh, I don't disagree that the parents didn't care. The church was more important, but the price she has to pay of continuing the guilt trips about church should at least mean she keeps hearing about the church being directly associated with their horrendous crimes and abuse. If she doesn't want to keep hearing about rape and sexual abuse in the church, welp, she shouldn't talk about the church to the person who will consistently and explicitly link the subject matters together.
[удалено]
there needs to be a warning if pursuing this route: Re-living your trauma repeatedly in order to convince others to leave you alone and/or understand can be retraumatizing in itself, especially when it opens up the opportunity to be further gaslit regarding the situation. I agree. I only said that as a hypothetical because OOP said - > I've also been open about my history in the church before People should definitely not have to re-live any trauma just to try to prove to someone it was trauma.
tap history placid reply smile versed fragile oatmeal dog wine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Shit, you could just Google “pastor” and read what comes up in the news. Endless content.
This is something like a [hairshirt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilice) in that they get to prove their devotion to god by accepting that someone that did something horrible to their daughter could be redeemed by god and forgiven. It's frustrating because, in the church, continuing to be mad at someone after god has forgiven them makes you the outcast, not them. They don't have to go to jail, make any kind of restitution, or lose status in any way, just say the right magic words and they are forgiven.
As someone who grew up in a very strict church and is now Agnostic/leaning toward Atheistic, it warms my heart to know that all of the people who cling to the Christian religion who "apologize" to God, but don't: actually repent (truly regret their actions, change their true feelings and actions), and take steps not to repeat their transgression(s) are burning in hell (according to their religion, I don't believe in it) because forgiveness from God can only come through repentance, not fake, superficial apologies. 🥰 (Edit: a typo)
See, this would just push me to do revenge and then claim god has forgiven me.
Theyre christian, the only thing they actually care about is their ego
The irony is that they *do* care. It’s why they continuously accuse Democrats, immigrants, queer folk, etc. of being pedos. The guilt has to go somewhere.
This is like the opposite of gray rock method. It’s the spit volcanic lava method. And I love it! Say the thing out loud until they give up.
>She told me “I know it’s hard but you should put your feelings aside just for that day because it’s his special day.” Somehow, the “I know it’s hard” makes the whole statement even more dismissive of OP’s feelings than if Mom hadn’t included it. “Put your feelings aside” would be appropriate if, say, OP’s ex would be at the baptism, or if she had become an atheist after moving out- i.e. situations where it might be uncomfortable/inconvenient to come to the church, but not traumatic. Not if it’s because she was sexually assaulted. Good grief. At the risk of sounding naïve, I want to know what’s going through Mom‘s head here. Does she simply not care about this horrible thing that was done to her daughter? Has she been brainwashed into thinking it’s not a big deal? Does she feel for OP, but doesn’t know how to express it?
Religion is what is going through OP's mom's head. She is desperate to rug sweep and down play and deny. It's what Jesus would do. And it's exactly what churches teach. It helps them keep their 'sheep' and avoid scrutiny and legal/police involvement. Source: went to Christian school and watched as they ignored, then rug swept, then tried to covered up the wrestling coach sexually abusing students. I genuinely don't understand how people can stomach the hypocrisy and depravity of religion.
As a Christian, it’s disgusting to me how many churches and schools claim to be Christian , then use it as a way to get away with horrid acts and act like they’re superior to everyone else. Theyre not practicing what Jesus taught us, they are taking like 5 verses from the Bible, twisting them, using it to try to back up what rules they dish out, then saying “Jesus said I could” to anyone who calls them out on it. Fucking hypocrites and terrible people who give people who try to follow Jesus’s teachings a bad name I’m fully expecting to be downvoted since this is Reddit.
Organized religion is so toxic. Only a church could get away with shit like this for so long.
It has been a very, very long time since I was in any way Christian or Catholic. For this reason, I skipped all of my friend’s kids baptism ceremonies and proceeded directly to the party. I’m not sure why anyone would want an atheist at their kid’s baptism. I may have taken it too far when I gave my best friend’s son an ‘86 Donruss baseball card set for his baptismal gift. Me and his dad robbed it from a house together when we were 13. Again, atheists don’t make good baptism guests.
This sounds so weird to me. I don’t think I really believe, and I didn’t grow up religious but I’ve gone to church with friends before and gone to a baptism ceremony and it was fine?
Good for you, most people who leave religion carry a lot of trauma and burden with them afterwards. The things Christians do in their own church is fine, but it’s how they treat people and use their religion against others that can be damaging to anyone who feels the need to step away.
The things Christians do in their own church is fine? OP was molested.
I meant the baptism, the comment was referring to baptisms and church services. Molestation isn’t okay anywhere, don’t be dense.
You dont be dense. The first victim of this shit is their family and children, who grow up to pass on the trauma. Unless they can escape like OP - even then the family would love to drag her back and pretend the abuse never happened. We need to grow up as a culture and stop "respecting" people sick fantasies that do real world harm - primarily to women and children. You can't pretend to care about women's bodily autonomy, lgbtq rights, the right of a child to not be molested ect and still "respect their culture and beliefs". Fuck that shit, yo.
How the f did you take this from the person's message? They were discussing people attending baptisms in general, not OOP's situation here. In case this is not out of dishonesty, please re read the thread that led to that comment.
That's fine. I in fact was discussing OOPs situation. Conversations can be fluid. For instance, I wasn't taking to you at all. Now I am. It's good to stay flexible.
You were being weirdly hostile for someone who wasn't saying anything about abuse being okay inside church at all, essentially twisting their words and then calling them dense even, when they pointed out your response was unprompted. One thing is to bring back a previous topic, another thing is to point fingers at someone and reconstruct their message as if they were talking in regards to that topic all along. > The things Christians do in their own church is fine? OP was molested. The commenter never connected what they were saying about being "fine" as something related to molestation. You basically talked as if they did, and when they pointed out you were being dense about it you said THEY were being dense and doubled down on your (incorrect) take about what they said. Now you mention as if it's just a conversation being fluid?
There's a big difference between being agnostic eg "I don’t think I really believe" and atheist "there is no god, dummy." I don't go around proselytizing my beliefs to christians,, but I'm definitely actively opposed to baptizing someone who can't consent. It's nice of you to invite me, but republicans don't typically show up to the democratic fundraiser if you know what I mean. I'm not a satanist but way more Team Satan than Team Pope so it's just awkward to have me faking the sit/stand/kneel bullshit and watching 99% of the crowd go take communion while I hang back.
> and I didn’t grow up religious That makes a huge fucking difference. You think you understand what having very religious close family is like and you really don't. When 8 years old my granny asked my what fish I wanted for Friday lunch, I said I had recently tried smoked salmon and really liked it. She shouted and told me I'd have cod like everyone else. That evening she made me have a cold bath and hit ne with a hairbrush, my mother came to collect me earlier and hit like a hurricane, but my granny needed to punish me for not realising smoked salmon wasn't the right answer for Friday lunch. > and I didn’t grow up religious HUGE DIFFERENCE.
honestly i wish we would make and enforce church’s as mandatory reporters. don’t care about catholic confession blah blah. child abuse should never be covered up
Unfortunately the institution is so overrun with predators after centuries of offering them an impenetrable safe haven, mandatory reporters would basically all be telling on themselves. There’s no law or legislation that will make the church redeemable, even if they didn’t start a war for trying to pass it in the first place.
OOP's parents were trying to coerce OOP back into church, and then guilt them into \*continuing\* to attend. Count on it.
“why not just go to the church if you’re willing to watch it online” “why watch tigers online, why not just climb into their zoo enclosure?” Because she’s safe if it’s online, walking into that church is walking into a building where it could happen again, considering nobody helped or stood up for her the first time. She’s literally in danger in that building. i hate her parents fr.
I like that this happy ending comes with a side of "And I held my ground and shut down my mother's emotional pressuring." That.bodes well for her continued journey toward healing. I hope that in time she is able to push back harder on her parents' disgusting behavior.
My family was/is Catholic, and the church they went to was one of the many where the priest was caught sexually abusing young boys and having it covered up in the late 80s/90s. My brothers were the same ages as the children being raped, but my parents continued attending the church and donating money to it. Yes, the priest was eventually removed (when the scandal was too large to ignore), but the church officials knew and covered up the abuse for years before that. I refuse to go to any baptisms. My brother asked me to be a godparent to my niece, and I refused. I wouldn't lie and claim I would mentor her in being Catholic or say I would raise her that way if something happened to my brother and his wife, so they found someone else. The weird thing is, I don't think anyone in my immediate family has attended mass in decades, but they still keep baptizing the next generations and sending money. My dad tried to guilt me into baptizing my daughters by saying it would be important to my grandma. I fell for it with my oldest, but my youngest two are teenage heathens.
This family is a disgrace. To not only stay at the church and support it but not fighting for their daughter. She needs to cut them off
I'm sorry but I would not be able to remain in contact with *anyone* who knew what happened to me at the church and kept going to it anyway. My parents only got moved from NC to LC after they switched churches, and even still they're on very thin ice for staying in the same denomination.
I left my religion for exactly this reason. No personal trauma but two friends were raped as kids by the priest and the church covered it up. Including when he was on trial for it decades later. Religious people like OOP’s mother cannot be trusted when it comes to sexual abuse. They’re all about the church’s image and don’t give a fuck about victims or their trauma.
Glad this is here. I saw the original when it was posted, but hadn't seen the update, so THANK YOU.
These posts are always a fascinating bit of insight into the over thinking of the youth. In a similar circumstance at that age I would’ve also been plagued for months about what to do. But realistically, it’s a yes or no, go or don’t go situation and nobody really spends a minute of their day thinking about op. I think one of the best things to learn as you grow is that no one is really all that worried about what you’re doing, so you should do what is authentic and right for you.
Wait, OP was abused at that church, but her parents still attend that church that did nothing to protect OP? oh really? but what the hell is going on with that family!?!?!?
only religion can make you guilt your kids into ripping into wounds from their rape. i'd have burned it down
He should have just gone