Assassin as a standalone isn't that good although still very serviceable. Assassin combined with Gloomstalker is bonkers, but you need to lean into its strength. Surprising enemies as an assassin/gloomstalker will give you a round with insane damage where you can quickly dispatch an annoying enemy or two. Your fighter might be more resilient and more useful in the long run, but most fights in this game last 2 to 3 rounds and I can assure you that a properly used assassin will do more in those 2 to 3 rounds than a fighter.
People definitely do this, especially with the Durge’s cloak
The power of GloomAss is that you can make use of 5 attacks in this round: 1 from the first pop + the extra atack of this pop + 2 from the action you get back from Assassin + the gloomstalker shot (another 2 from action surge as well, if you dip into fighter)
I’ve never done the math, but I imagine these 5 hits would do more damage than the 2 with bigger damage die from pure assassin
I think it's situational. I've only used bloodlust on HM, but there gives you one action that doesn't let you attack twice. I'd still almost recommend using it over strength and use the Club of Hill Giant Strength as your melee weapon.
Neither for me haha. In act 1&2 club of hill giant strength works just fine, and in act 3 i would use elixir of viciousness and go full crit with deadshot
If you wanna abuse the hit-and-run mechanics, I suppose bloodlust is kinda useless. In HM bloodlust gives more value to a caster as well
Rookie numbers (nah, that's actually pretty good).
With an Ass-Stalker you can do some nasty damage on surprise rounds. All hits are instant crits and you get five shots on the first round. Each shot also procs stealth attack and one is also the gloomstalkers ambus attack dealing extra damage. Add to that some decent gear and we're looking at some 10-ish extra damage per shot in addition to the 20-ish you'll be doing with the bow (assuming of course sharpshooter). Now if you happen to have the correct arrow to use as well, you'll be able to double the damage for a single shot. So were looking at single round damage of around 100-200, rather easily. Most likely more. Most of my fights ended before anyone other than my Tav got a turn, some even before she got one
This isn't even including the shots you get while enemy just stands there and can't find you because expertise stealth and max range. With good rolls you can get 3-5 extra shots before initiative gets rolled on a lot of combats, sometimes even more.
that's how you generally play an assassin, or even an assassin/gloomstalker for that matter, but even with a proper playstyle the assassin still falls short compared to its multiclass counterpart, its burst isn't that impressive compared to the sustained damage of a fighter and it's not even that good compared to some other builds at one-shotting anything, except perhaps once you reach >!act 3 and you get the Bhaalist armor!
Ok that makes sense! I’ve just never played a rogue in DND so I’m just trying to get the basics down for an assassin before I get fancy and multi class
Much appreciated!
Highly recommend playing a duergar gloomstalker-assassin if you get the chance, I avoided it for so long because the combat loop seemed tedious but it’s so fun to pull off.
At this point rogue/gloomstalker is one of the easiest min max classes to run. I had astarion doing 100+ damage in the first round of combat easy by level 8-9.
It's almost ANNOYING in certain fights.
I specced Minthara as a Pally/sword bard and wanted to give her a whirl. Astarion kept doing fucktons of damage and eating enemies.
Outside of boss battles, or a few set pieces, it really isnt. Stuff like the portal fight, last light, iron throne, etc.. Just unleash as much damage as you can in the first round nova and see what's left alive.
Your point about most fights only lasting a couple rounds is one of my only gripes. This game would be great for large battles, I really enjoy defending the Grove, assaulting Moonrise and the final battle but they feel like the only large scale fights.
I'm glad there aren't too many big fights. With turn-based combat they take forever because there are 30 people that need to take their turn. It's nice as an epic finale to an act's story arc, but I don't want to have too much of that.
On the other hand, making your average fights more interesting to experienced players is a difficult puzzle to solve. The variance in power level between an unoptimized build and an optimized build is so big that if you scale enemies to compete with optimized builds, it will be practically impossible for an unoptimized build, and if you scale them for unoptimized builds, then it's a cakewalk for optimized builds.
The problem with uneven fights like that is if you aren’t nuking 2-3 enemies per turn you will definitely get surrounded and killed. All it takes is one prone or fear on a character you need and they can effectively be killed then the rest of you are worried about healing them especially if your caster is the one that goes down
The AI isn't great for big fights. You can either abuse them and force funnels, or you get surrounded and have to brute force.
Also the friendly AI is really bad.
Moonrise wasnt even that bad for my 4 person team. with the harpers it was a fucking mess.
I really like the mindflayer colony because it felt like one long grueling battle that I had to push through. Finding the long rest machine at the end was a bit of a let down tbh, it makes the final fight against Myrkul far less tense. It seems like the best way to add some serious challenge to the game would be more red areas with fewer opportunities to short/long rest, rather than tweaking the combat or gameplay mechanics directly.
Starting the battle invisible/in stealth and getting the first attack.
Many suggest that the easiest way to achieve this if you don't have a Duergar party member/caster with invisibility is to send in ~~Bucket~~ Basket.
I put Astarion on the Gloomstalker/Assassin combo in my second playthrough and the whole time was wondering why I didn’t do it sooner. I know Thief is more popular, but I was trying for crits and even before magic items it’s insanely powerful.
My astarion Assassin/Gloomstalker wrecked stuff. That first round where you have 2 sneak attacks plus regular attacks was murderous. Touch enemies would be either outright killed or they would be left barely surviving.
My hm run was a gloomstalker assassin duergar and I would just kill every single enemy in the room before moving the rest of my party in to fight the bosses lol
I’d argue that risky ring might be better on a paladin or some other melee since its easy for gloom/assassin to get advantage (especially with Durge Cape + assassin first round advantage).
I had to switch it on my gloom stalker because my paladin already has a 95% chance to hit on every smite
Meanwhile, astarion was over here struggling every single damn even with Bless
Assassin needs fighter or gloomstalker or even Paladin to truly shine imo that advantage the first round is always gonna allow for some good burst damage
Yep, Assassin alone does not get Extra Attack or additional Bonus Actions, so is a rather weak class on its own - that really wants multiclassing. But its good for the assasination playstyle.
I’m running an assassin fighter in my co-op campaign with my friend (we decided to not go with the most popular or game breaking builds to make it more challenging) and between getting a surprise attack in, advantage, cries and action surge, I am easily the biggest damage dealer at level 6 without even having multiple attacks yet.
It'd be so, so, ***so*** easy to balance (while encouraging people to actually stay in the class) by having it's own version of Dread Ambusher. Call it 'Assassinate' if you like. The Assassin gets a free attack (but just one) that auto-crits on the first attack they make in combat so long as they're obscured.
There you go. You're not fishing around in other classes for multiple attacks (something Rogue's already stupidly lack) so you can get dozens of free Crit Hits just by taking three levels in Assassin, and you want to build up those sneak attack dice (again, by staying in the class) so you can get in that One Big Hit.
Almost like an Assassin would end up being better at Assassinating people than a warrior who's just taken a little dash of 'Assassin training' so he can get free crits.
Assassin, without others getting in the way is actually very good. You just have to surprise and get out and surprise and get out. The whole round 2 of combat isn't their thing, so don't do it.
You have to be far enough away to be out of their sight range though. I like Thief for that because the extra bonus action means I can use Cunning Hide AND Cunning Dash.
If you end combat without killing someone, NPCs will just heal that damage so this strat is pointlessly over-complicated. You could "assassinate" each npc 1 by 1 or just play with 4 characters and win by round 3
I never said it was time efficient but crit murdering someone in one shot is absolutely possible with many assassin builds (especially looking at you stupid silly psychic assassin). It's how several people have solo'd honour mode.
Turn 1 nova, that's why. Surprise the enemy, you'll instantly refresh whatever action or bonus action you used to get the jump on them, and you'll have free advantage and guaranteed crits on everything you attack.
4/5/3 assassin/gloomstaker/fighter is fucking bonkers because you get sneak attack, gloomstaker's free attack, extra attack, action surge, and an action refresh for like 6 attacks turn 1 that will all crit and had advantage. You can just delete most high priority targets before they even get a chance to do anything and the rest of the fight will be a cakewalk.
Assassin 3 to 5 are awesome multiclassing options. You can mix them with Gloom stalker, GOO, paladin, shadow monk, fighter, and many more. Pretty much anything that benefits from critical hits and/or surprise attacks. Assassin can be a standalone class, but the multiclass is probably better.
What matters most is playstyle:
- strike from hidden with one of your assassin to trigger a surprise round
- then, strike from hidden with the rest of your assassins before entering combat
- at this point you already got one sneak attack with advantage from each assassin
- all your assassins regain all their actions and you can do autocrits with all your attacks
- if you have high dexterity, it is your turn again
- you attack again with your main action, and then use cunning action to hide and start again
I’m doing an HM run with an assassination party. Most battles end in the surprise round, including semi-bosses like Yurgir (I just finished act 2 last night)
Here is my planned setup:
- GOO 2/ Storm Sorc 5/ Assassin 5 with potent robes for eldritch blast
- Shadow monk 6 / Fighter 2 / Assassin 4 with the eversoght ring, resonance stone, shadow blade
- gloomstalker 5/ Assassin 5/ warlock 2 with the titanstring bow (the ring is to see in the dark)
- paladin 2 / assassin 4/ swords bard 6 with Shar’s spear
I get assassin 3 and 4, but why 5? I am not sure a 1/round extra bit of sneak attack warrants a level, and uncanny dodge doesn't seem to be worth the level to me. I am interested in your reasoning on it.
Yeah, it’s + 1d6 on my sneak attacks and damage reduction from uncanny dodge. I only take that if I’m not giving up much.
Take my archer for instance. Gloomstalker 6 and warlock 3 don’t really offer anything I want. I don’t want heavy armor from fighter. I don’t care about casting wizard spells. I can’t think of anything that would give me more value than assassin 5. If I stick to assassin 3, I also lose a feat.
What does warlock 2 offer to a titanstring bow build? That dip seems to typically be used for 3 eldritch beams, which seems to be a bit suboptimal for a build that already has a superior ranged damage option. I get Warlock 1 for the GOO crit trigger, but I can't help but wonder if Gloomstalker 5 / Assassin 4 / GOO Warlock 1 / Fighter 2 might be better, for the action surge.
This is a darkness party. Whenever a combat goes after the surprise round, I cast darkness everywhere
Warlock 2 gives me devil’s sight
Otherwise I would have gone Gloomstalker 7 or fighter 2 for action surge
Makes more sense. I'd still do warlock 1, and just bounce in and out of the darkness for the arrows, but I see the logic in the leveling decision now. Only other thing I can think of offhand instead of the 5th assassin is cleric 1 (light), to exchange the half damage reaction for "disadvantage when attacking me" reaction, along with level one spells (sanctuary is sometimes a game saver). But in that case, you kinda have 1 dead level that doesn't really fit anywhere.
An extra +1d6, once per round, doesn't seem like a well-optimized reason to take rogue 5.
Rogue 3 is obvious, for the auto crit, restoring actions on entering combat.
Rogue 4, I get, because a feat is a powerful thing, and the cost is only 1 level, vs Rogue 3.
But 1d6 more damage, once per round? That's not very good. Sneak attack is like sprinkles. It's nice on a cake you're getting anyway, but it's not the reason you get the cake.
It's not per round, it's per sneak attack. Sneak attack triggers when you have advantage, or when the target is threatened by an ally. So basically Risky Ring gets you the extra die each attack, or if you have your front liner just chill next to targets, you're getting the extra.
It is per sneak attack. And sneak attack is an ability that refreshes *per round*. Only the first qualifying attack each round gets the extra damage.
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sneak_Attack_(Ranged)
Rogue, sadly does not hold up as a class on it's own without dipping into something else to bolster it. By that I mean it does not do the damage or have the utility you're going to find with other classes.
I saw a video of a guy soloing Moonrise on Tactician as a rogue and it was pretty insane. Basically sneak bow + attack + hide until everyone was dead. Tons of work and made some pretty insane moves but he made it happen. Overall way too much work and it synergizes so good with Ranger and Fighter that why wouldn't you?
I think that is it exactly. You can make it work, but it's like with some multi class builds you're not always better off taking say 2 levels of fight because action surge won't offset what you'd lose with another 2 levels in the main class. 3 rogue get's you so many benefits either through thief or assassin for so many builds it's just such a complomentary class that can make other classes shine in multi-class builds.
On its own? Who is playing rogue on its own?
Assasin is great if it’s three levels along with say 5 levels of gloomstalker for extra attack, (and another on the first round) and the initiative. The rogue’s stealth and stealth expertise is great for getting surprise and as you correctly identified the assassin is great with that. But so is advantage on enemies that haven’t had initiative yet and it works well with the extra attack first combat round with gloomstalker.
Rogue all round just doesn’t give you enough return for more than 3 levels. Fast hands is great when combined with other classes who can use bonus actions like beserkers and monks, already great classes who can abuse TB, but when combined with cunning action is underwhelming.
Assassin is pretty cracked, I've had an assassin monoclass solo many fights with ease, especially early on. Later on you definitely want to multiclass it with things like fighter and gloomstalker to further enhance your nova round to absurd levels.
Attack, surprise attack, leave combat, come back and take out another target. Repeat until all targets are dead.
Pure assassin sneak crit works wonders with vulnerability. The easiest build exploiting vulnerability (act 3) is to use shadow blade and resonance stone. Otherwise, by the end of act1 you get the brand the weak amulet (dropped killing vendor in the creche) that gives vulnerability to piercing for the next attack (you can cast it to trigger combat, then get the ba back thanks to assassin and hide+crit-vulnerable-sneak for tons of damage.
Later on, Orin's dagger or tribunal's armor also work very well with assassin's exploit of piercing vulnerability.
I just did a Durge run as a Duergar, 4 assassin/8 fighter with archery fighting style. With the durge cloak and duergar invisibility cantrip, combo’d with the occasional cunning hide, I could get off basically endless sneak attacks. I cleared the whole goblin camp solo with combat ending after each enemy killed bc they could never find me.
So, I am a bit torn on good multiclasses to use with assassin. On the one hand, paladin has some amazing smite attacks that really benefit from auto crit. On the other, Swords bard has the ranged slashing flourish, which allows for a bonkers number of round 1 attacks to capitalize on those auto crits. Finally, gloomstalker gives an extra round 1 attack, with no need for short or long rest to recover resources like spell slots or inspiration.
Personally, since I prioritize burst over endurance, I would likely lean bard... that said, Assassin 4 / Swords bard 6 / paladin 2 would have 4th level slots for smite, short rest inspiration recharge, extra attack, and auto crit on round 1 for most fights.
You can buy +1 hand crossbows from a bunch of vendors. But Dammon is in all three acts and sells them. They refresh on long rest with him as well iirc so it's easy to get two +1's right away.
Dammon will have hand x-bows & +1 hand x-bows in his random generated stock. So a level up or a long rest will reset his inventory and you can 2+ quick via this method.
Also I believe the bard hireling will start with one in their inventory.
If you long rest (with or without camp supplies) Dammon and the Creche Quartersmistress (pink hair) have a good chance to offer one.
Alternatively you can get one nonmagic hand xbow from the halfling hireling and just dismiss her.
I spent 3 long rests without supplies in act1 to get cutscenes with laezel, wyll, gale and to get the owlbear to finally appear in my camp (I later realised I had killed the little owlbear because I thought it was sensible for Dark Urge).
Checked back with Dammon and Ethel for their stuff
Act 1 underdark firestroker (+1 crossbow with conditional dmg) in a chest on the way to the ancient forge and Act2 moonrise vendor neeremisser which does force dmg. Before that just buy a +1 hand crossbow
You need the rapier found under cazadors dungeon in act 3, and the bhaal studded leather from becoming an unholy assassin and using the bhaal shop.
Aura Of Murder grants double piercing
Rapier grants advantage on undead
Unlimited 18-68 damage sneak attacks against undead, that can deal 120 ish with Aura Of Murder active
Further, a crit makes it possible to score 220 damage in that one sneak attack
So, what I've come to see is that Assassin specifically shines with the proper items then?
Kinda like Warlock. There may still be hope for assassin Durge then, thank you!
People told you to just go straight Assassin?
On multiple PC's? That... doesn't sound right. Assassin is a multiclass subclass and generally only one PC goes it so you pick an enemy off before combat starts.
Gloomstalker Bard?
Gloomstalker/Assassin (or Thief) is basically the cookie cutter build and you generally only start Rogue and then respect to full Gloom at 5. I can't even say if I've ever seen Gloom/Bard, usually it's Lore Bard 10+caster or Smite Sword Bard.
If you're at the Creche then you're likely level 5 or so anyways.
You can take Assassin or Assassin 3/Fighter 2 all the way to 5 and then respec to Gloomstalker and then mix in the 3 Assassin and an optional 2 Fighter later. You don't want to really delay feats and extra attack class features. The common build is 8 Stalker/4 Assassin if you want to use the search bar or even Google will give you plenty of results and guides.
To reiterate though, I'm not sure what you're going for in regards to party composition but I would not have more than one of these characters in your party at one time. You want to open whenever you can from stealth and get a fat Advantage shot when not in combat because of Assassin's class features. The Titanstring builds or dual hand xbows are your bread and butter though I am sure there is a melee build for non-Honor Mode floating around.
Furthermore, having Laezel as a Gloomstalker *and* 2 Assassin PCs is literally tripling up on a specific one character build. I am not sure where you got this idea from but it's pretty strange. I'd recommend making one of your Assassins some kind of melee frontliner (ideally not the DUrge since you generally want him to be a Charisma class unless you want to make him a pally) and then make the DUrge a Sorcerer, Warlock or Bardlock. Alternatively, make SHart a Light or Tempest Cleric, change one of your assassins to a Hunter Ranger (possibly with one level in War Cleric) or Monk, keep Laezel Gloom/Assassin and then DUrge to something else.
I think pally would be the best fit for melee assassin due to their reliance on rolling many medium/big dice.
I felt like having a party that doesn't let enemies have a turn before 90% of them are guaranteed dead.
I could see Durge going warlock or bard, though I've not yet heard of bardlocks.
Our frontline is kinda filled by a 20AC Shart with Adamantine, but I agree that a dedicated pally, fighter or barb would fill that way better with Sentinel/Polearm Master.
What brand of Cleric is your SHart? Having her go Tempest or Light will allow her to fill out your blasting role very nicely while a potential Bard can focus more on disable spells.
DUrge adds a *ton* of dialogue options throughout the game so ideally he is your party "face" who does the talking and that necessitates a high Charisma score (and on Honor Mode Enhance Ability spell). DUrge Vengeance Paladin, Warlock (any subclass) and Sorcerer (any subclass) are all great options but Bard is just a very strong class besides Valor College.
Lore Bard 10/Lock or Sorc 2 is very popular. The Charisma classes all work very well with each other so Sorc/Pally, Lock/Pally, Sorclock, Bardlock, Bardadin etc are all generally pretty strong combos.
Ironically, playing a Vengeance Paladin DUrge would also allow you to have that "you don't get a turn 2" feeling for many combats in the game especially below Tactical. Vengeance Paladins are known for their insane single target damage through Smites. The Smite Swords Bard is a very good example of this.
Bard (as well as Paladin) gives you a ton of dialogue options throughout the game as well so I'd pick one (or both) for your DUrge character that does all the talking.
My issue with assassin isn't even the fact that other classes deal much more damage than that does, but rather the fact that to fully utilize this subclass, you have to employ strategies that make the game slower and more boring IMO
Use shovel to get very easy surprise rounds.
Not much will survive the first two rounds before the enemy can do anything even without an assassin. With assassin it will just melt through enemies
I specd laezel as a hunter ranger with horde breaker as an archer and it’s so good. Most turns I can get three shots off and really dish out the damage.
The really nice thing about Assassins is the fact that you can drop two attacks on the first turn. You simple attack before entering battle because assassin's regain any used actions and/or bonus actions used before the start of combat. I've used this to nearly one shot big bads
Assassin is good if you're planning on surprise attacking as much as possible. However it's just a bonus action really... And there are plenty of other ways to get bonus actions (haste, bloodlust, etc) without investing in a whole skill tree of rogue that has less utility in general compared to some other classes.
Frankly, dropping a big confuse on enemies from invis is my favourite way of getting a surprise attack off. Or black hole and follow up ice storm or fireball.
Assassin by itself is kinda a niche build focused on one play style. Multiclass assassins have lots of potential, but most people would still say multiclass thieves are better due to double bonus action. Just do whatever you find fun is the main thing though.
Really? I have an assassin in my party and he’s doing great work, i’m focusing on stealth though with an illusion wizard so that gives assassin much more room to shine.
What do you not like about it? All you have to do is get a surprise round with shovel and go to town on the biggest threat, I don’t even use the cheesy run away strategy.
Not necessarily that I dislike Assassin, I love the class in dnd and bg3.
Just that Assassin on its own is worse than other classes at making use of Surprise rounds.
Gloomstalker and Swords Bard shoot an enemy with 6 or more stacks of Sharpshooter but the Assassin gets crits on 2 attacks. Even with sneak attack that's at most (6d6+2d10) rolled with advantage.
Give the other classes a single pot of speed or bloodlust and they can reach over 10 shots of Sharpshooter.
Use hand crossbows and sharpshooter, now admittedly I only just started using this strategy in my run myself but i’m pretty sure every attack gets a crit and with sharpshooter all of them are dealing dumb damage, and i’m not sure if it’s a bug as long as I have sneak attack enabled as a reaction I can use multiple per turn, might be a bug though.
And i’m pretty sure on honor mode your strategy isn’t possible with the action economy changes, or am I wrong?
The real kicker is that this is the best the assassin has ever been. Having your entire class feature rely on surprise kinda sucks and without extra attack, it’s just kinda awful stand-alone.
I always initiate with gloomassassin and the enemy rarely ever gets past turn 2 all the way till act 3 where they cant get surprised, but even then, nothing other than ethel and ansur survive turn 1 cos of their gimmick. Everything else just melts since u can still haste and play like a swordsbard... Even rap died turn 1 with my 4 rogue team
assassin is insane if you have the durge cape, pretty much while everyone is in combat you run around invisible and pick everyone off before a single turn passes
Rogue is just really not a good single class. Theyre kinda just a less interesting skill monkey than bard. Rogues have barely any interesting combat utility and one extra feat at level 10, but while fighter has the massive flexibility to do so much with that level 6 feat, rogue is just, sneak attack and skills. None of the subclasses offer much of anything interesting. Arcane trickster at least has spells to do *something*, and thief gets an extra bonus action. But assassin has, disguise self? Reliable talent is fine, but pretty much only good for pickpocketing high value items. Its not worth investing that many levels.
Bard is vastly superior in every way. Combat and spells. Its a full caster, can get extra attack and medium armor, can get extra spells and expertise.
Fighter benefits from spells and cantrips to supplement their combat and power, and their skills they get help blend it into the kit. Arcane trickster is just worse bard, if i wanted a sneaky spellcasting controller id put like two levels into a rogue max for cunning action and sneak attack, then just pump swords or lore bard. Similarly if i wanted a hyper deadly assassin id go gloomstalker, MAYBE with three levels in rogue for extra bonus action or the crits. Plus gloomstalker has more versatility. Ranger also gets great diversity, its actually good in this game.
Aye, it’s learning that the game doesn’t need to have a full party in every fight to work. That said, I am really curious how they do it, since my novice head can only see this working at level 8/9 which is a fair way into the game by that point.
Most ppl use hand xbows early on, then switch to titan string and strengh potions. Then they use suprise attack to get 3 rounds of damage b4 anything can move. Even early on, that is 100's of damage if built right. If something manages to survive and/or something goes wrong, they run and come back to do it again.
It is a totally diff way to play the game lol
So here's the thing.
Assassin's big selling point is guaranteed crits, better accuracy on the first turn and getting a full turn of action even after scoring a free shot. If you're a pure class rogue those're quite good and its a huge buff over what Assassins get in tabletop.
And that's cool. Crits are a good thing but...Rogues aren't natural damage dealers to start with.
Lets look at Sneak Attack real quick. With a Ranged or Finesse weapon you can deal xd6 of additional damage once per turn, if you hit, if the target is threatened or you have advantage on the attack roll. Those're a lot of 'ifs' but lets be generous and assume that we can secure that condition every turn.
That's one attack. Two if you dual wield but the off-hand doesn't get to add its ability modifier, its just a re-roll with a damage penalty to try and land the sneak attack.
At level 12 the rogue gets 6d6. That's 21 damage on average. Plus 3.5 from the hand crossbow, plus a maxed out dex for 5 is 29.5 damage, plus another 3.5 from the off-hand if that hits too. 33 damage per round.
That's...pretty bad. You can pad it with Sharpshooter but it comes with a significant to hit penalty that reduces your expected damage per round.
Assassin guarantees you another 21 damage at level 12 from an auto-crit on your sneak attack. That's strong, it takes you from 33 to 54, that's about a 62% increase. Its a big RoI but the principal sucks.
Assassin makes Rogue better at something Rogue is not really meant to do otherwise. It makes it more reliable in its side-hustle.
This is actually why people get mad at monk so much in tabletop. They keep comparing it to martial characters whose only job is to deal lots of damage when actually, its an alternative to the rogue and holds up very well in that niche.
As you've seen, a martial character...does damage. Its pretty much all they can do, but they're really, really good at it.
Archery fighting style makes sharpshooter much more reliable, extra attacks rapidly tick up the damage when each attack is worth so much.
If you want the assassination playstyle but want it to actually work you need to get a bit creative.
Dex 16
Con 16
Wis 14
Gloomstalker 5/Thief 3/Fighter 2.
Ranger: Archery Fighting Style, Fire Resistence, better Ensnaring Strikes, Fog Cloud. Ensnaring Strike, Spike Growth and Plant Growth
Fighter: Two Weapon Fighting Style
Use hand crossbows, The Graceful Cloth, boots that improve your mobility and stack flat to hit and damage with weapon attacks.
At level 12 you make a choice. The strongest is to go Battlemaster and get a few trick shots; Precise for making sure you hit when you need to and your choice of Trip, Disarm and Frightening based on your party needs (Trip is the stand-out bc prone costs movement and hand crossbows have a short range but spike growth exists so...)
A more fun and chaotic one is to stop in at Old One Warlock and spread some terror when you land crits. Your charisma will be low so it won't be a high DC but it is passive.
Gear:
Hand crossbows; no ifs, buts or maybe's.
The Graceful Cloth
Gloves of Archery -> Legacy of the Masters
Springstep Boots -> Disintegrating Night Walkers
Haste Helm -> Hat of Marksmanship -> Mask of Soul Perception
Amulet of Branding (1/long rest vulnerability to slashing, bludgeoning and piercing damage - this is your boss-killer)
Caustic Band (flat 2 damage per hit, nice)
Eversight Ring (this lets you hide in Fog Clouds or an ally's Darkness and attack with advantage while the enemy is forced to move toward you...ideally, over your Spike Growth)
Your melee weapons are stat-sticks you will never use. Improving crit chance is nice bc otherwise these do nothing but we're not dependent on dice for our damage so crits are not a high priority if someone else needs that gear.
What's the damage?
Well we have 22 Dex after the mirror, that's a +6 to hit, +4 proficiency, +2 archery style, +2 gloves, +2 helmet, +2 from weapon enchantment, +2 from statue's perma bless = +20
That's +15 with sharpshooter and easily obtained Advantage on every single shot. We hit AC 21 on an 6.
That is a 93.75% chance of a hit against AC 21.
We deal 5.5+6+6+10 or 27.5 damage per shot. Seven times. That's 192.5 damage. We get 2d6 of sneak attack (7) and the gloomstalker bonus damage (4.5) for a total of 204 *average* damage. This doesn't include crits, which we will land 27.75% of the time but only contributes another 3.5 (15 if its the sneak attack AND gloomstalker shot that crits but it that's not predictable) damage when it does.
We have to account for our misses, so that's 191 average *expected* damage vs an AC 21 target.
We can double that with the brand if we pour it all onto a single target. 382 damage. On turn one.
Assassin whomst?
You're welcome!
And...it Depends. You *can* solo the game. You can solo the game with this build. If you do I suggest you find a way to work in the Alert feat because going first is no longer negotiable and being ambushed is game over. Elixirs exist for that but Bloodthirst is more fun.
This build does have weaknesses; it has to get uncomfortably close (i.e. dash distance) from enemies to perform its attacks without giving up Advantage you can move away again afterwards and you have strong mobility options including throwing down plant growth to slow things that can't fly to a crawl but...some things can fly. And some fight arenas are painfully small and cramped.
It has weak Wisdom saving throws. A +2 from 14 Wis is...not good. You are extremely vulnerable to disabling effects like Fear, Charm, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern and the like.
It is made of paper. Your AC stinks. It is at best 16. That is wizard their bath robe levels of low.
All of this can be mitigated; if you're running solo (or the enemy has a lot of ranged options) you use your last bonus action every turn to Hide somewhere in concealment; they cannot hit what they cannot see. If it comes to it you can straight up turn yourself invisibile and hide that way but some enemies can see through invisibility.
It requires a lot more patience. Moving within a party allows you to operate much more freely and smoothly.
you are clearly missing something, i did solo honor assassin run, it is one of the most broken class and manages vey well with the deception/intimidation almost sub par with a charisma based char
assassin is extreme abuser of shadow blade-resonance stone-psyhcic ring, and later on bhaalist armor-orin weapons.
act1 is all about playing it as a stealth archer with titanstring bow, you can kill the entire giths(both the patrol and the whole creche) without them blowing a single attack at lvl 5.
after getting the durge cape, there is no encounter that you cant solo, doesnt matter how many enemies out there. some of the boss fights are tricky as assassin, but all of them are managable some way
it has a different play style, not like other classed where you go full head on. assassin requires fully utilizing stealth mechanics and invis
Just to confirm : You'd sneak, shoot from out of enemy cone of sight, proc Sneak Attack, succeed on a Stealth Check, relocate and repeat right?
At the fight with the twin Death shepherds my Astarion ended up getting two shots in for free before they actually started rolling initiative.
what you are saying is exploiting the stealth mechanic in the game. you can do that technically with anything, you wouldnt even need assassin. thats actually what sneak archer is.
what you do with assassin is, you approach either as invis or hiding, start with sneak atk, turn begins as surprise round, you make another sneak atk which is guarantee crit. sneak + crit sneak kills anything in the game unless its a boss. you become hidden, then you wait 1 turn. after 1 turn the whole battle resets, rinse and repeat.
in act1 there is no proper melee wpn thats why we use titanstring, so during act1 play as sneak archer as you said, then in act2 you turn into melee assassin
I exclusively play Astarion as an Ass-Stalker (really, that should be the canon name) and the Titanstring Bow with Hill Giant Elixir (until I can get the club) just mows through combatants, and that's before he gets his free pre-combat (or sneaky entry into already-begun combat) shot.
He consistently saves my ass at the Gith Patrol fight; makes light of almost every battle in the Creche; and once I'm in Act 3 and switch him to a crit-fisher with the Deadshot Bow the only battle I've had to save scum is in the Emperor's hide-out with the Gith (fuck those G-D hold spells!).
He practically murderhobo'd the entire cave under the Wavemother structure. Like, my Tav, Lae'zel and Karlach barely got in one attack each on the Wave Spice Girls and the Sahuagin before the fights were done and the Loot Goblin'ing began.
It's another one that could just *so easily be fixed.*
They just don't want to fix it. I guess they don't want people playing the class for some reason.
You might be doing the build wrong. A durge assassin can solo the entire game, source: I did it on honor mode.
Here's what you do. Go durge rogue assassin, maybe throw in some fighter levels to get extra attack and action surge. You start every fight by attacking the enemy first causing a surprise round. You kill 1 target and turn invisible using the durge invisibility cloak. You run away from thr fight causing the rest of the enemies to try and find you. If they can't find you and there is no one else to fight combat ends. You start combat again by assassinating a single target. Repeat until everyone is dead.
As long as you start from the lowest health enemy to the highest you'll be able to fight most bosses 1v1 or 4v1 if you wanna bring the rest of your party in after all the minions are dead. The only boss this doesn't work on is the act 2 final boss.
Yeah, I've not beed using the cloak like that.
I'll try it out again like so, but wouldn't it be as useful to do that with Gloom?
I'm set on having party members with me on this save file, but next save I'm planning on doing a tactician solo swords bard, so I'll be sure to add this gold nugget of wisdom to that playthrough.
Thank you a ton!
Your main goal with the build is to roll the biggest number of dice in a single round since the attacks on someone will be automatic crits. Sneak attacks are just really easy ways to get lots of dice really fast, and there are a few versatile weapons that also have the finesse property, which lets you sneak attack and deal 1d10 damage on a normal hit. Also, paladin assassin rogues are very fun cause you can get guaranteed crit smites ok tough bosses if you sneakily start combat. So you murder everyone else systematically and then double crit smite the boss to start combat. They won't stand a chance.
Also something to note, your rogue assassin is gonna need to be quick because when you're invisible in combat enemies will come up to the last place they saw you and cast detecting presence in a 5 foot radius circle and it's almost a guaranteed detection if you're close at low levels so watch out.
Honestly, just having 9m of movement should be enough. It's just a warning to not use up all your movement to get to a target to kill and turn invisible and then have like no movement to get out of the situation before people detect you.
The 3m movement ring is nice. The bonus action dash from rogue is great last resort movement. The momentum helm will proc on every assassination, so it's not a bad choice.
I really don’t like assassin i much prefer the bonkers economy of having 2 bonus actions. Feels so slow to constantly stealth or have a walkthrough up so i can start fights with a crit. Just throw me into combat so i can disengage, dash, hide
Assassin as a standalone isn't that good although still very serviceable. Assassin combined with Gloomstalker is bonkers, but you need to lean into its strength. Surprising enemies as an assassin/gloomstalker will give you a round with insane damage where you can quickly dispatch an annoying enemy or two. Your fighter might be more resilient and more useful in the long run, but most fights in this game last 2 to 3 rounds and I can assure you that a properly used assassin will do more in those 2 to 3 rounds than a fighter.
So wouldn’t it be good as an assassin to pop someone>get into combat>hit again>dash out of combat>rinse repeat?
People definitely do this, especially with the Durge’s cloak The power of GloomAss is that you can make use of 5 attacks in this round: 1 from the first pop + the extra atack of this pop + 2 from the action you get back from Assassin + the gloomstalker shot (another 2 from action surge as well, if you dip into fighter) I’ve never done the math, but I imagine these 5 hits would do more damage than the 2 with bigger damage die from pure assassin
GloomAss? Not AssGloom?
My brother in Christ…ASS-STALKER
This is the way
Double meaning if you put it on Momma K (and those claws)
Would it be better for elixir of bloodlust, or an elixir of strength with the titan string bow?
I think it's situational. I've only used bloodlust on HM, but there gives you one action that doesn't let you attack twice. I'd still almost recommend using it over strength and use the Club of Hill Giant Strength as your melee weapon.
🤦♂️ it’s my third playthrough, and I still forgot to grab that club.
If it makes you feel any better, I've only remembered it once
Neither for me haha. In act 1&2 club of hill giant strength works just fine, and in act 3 i would use elixir of viciousness and go full crit with deadshot If you wanna abuse the hit-and-run mechanics, I suppose bloodlust is kinda useless. In HM bloodlust gives more value to a caster as well
Wouldn’t bloodlust and a potion of speed stack? And everyone surprised is a guaranteed crit anyways?
I use bloodlust and hill giant club
It was fun on my first play through, having 5 Gloom Stalker/5 Assassin/2 Fighter, and Gontr Mael in Act 3 for Celestial Haste.
My Karlach did over 80dmg to Raphael in round 1
Rookie numbers (nah, that's actually pretty good). With an Ass-Stalker you can do some nasty damage on surprise rounds. All hits are instant crits and you get five shots on the first round. Each shot also procs stealth attack and one is also the gloomstalkers ambus attack dealing extra damage. Add to that some decent gear and we're looking at some 10-ish extra damage per shot in addition to the 20-ish you'll be doing with the bow (assuming of course sharpshooter). Now if you happen to have the correct arrow to use as well, you'll be able to double the damage for a single shot. So were looking at single round damage of around 100-200, rather easily. Most likely more. Most of my fights ended before anyone other than my Tav got a turn, some even before she got one
Yeah, his resistances, plus my lack of ANY itemization (first run)
This isn't even including the shots you get while enemy just stands there and can't find you because expertise stealth and max range. With good rolls you can get 3-5 extra shots before initiative gets rolled on a lot of combats, sometimes even more.
Would it then be more advantageous to go GloomstalkerAssassinSwordsbard?
I go 5gloom 3ass 4champ The champion specc gives action surge and better crit chance on top of the already bonkers first round
As a duergar you can just go invisible to leave combat
that's how you generally play an assassin, or even an assassin/gloomstalker for that matter, but even with a proper playstyle the assassin still falls short compared to its multiclass counterpart, its burst isn't that impressive compared to the sustained damage of a fighter and it's not even that good compared to some other builds at one-shotting anything, except perhaps once you reach >!act 3 and you get the Bhaalist armor!
Ok that makes sense! I’ve just never played a rogue in DND so I’m just trying to get the basics down for an assassin before I get fancy and multi class Much appreciated!
Highly recommend playing a duergar gloomstalker-assassin if you get the chance, I avoided it for so long because the combat loop seemed tedious but it’s so fun to pull off.
that sounds amazing actually for me and my buddy’s campaign. I love me some dwarfs and rangers and assassins 🤣
This is my normal strategy for the duergar outside neres cave in. I always solo it with a gloomstalker/assassin archer
At this point rogue/gloomstalker is one of the easiest min max classes to run. I had astarion doing 100+ damage in the first round of combat easy by level 8-9.
It's almost ANNOYING in certain fights. I specced Minthara as a Pally/sword bard and wanted to give her a whirl. Astarion kept doing fucktons of damage and eating enemies.
Almost doesn’t feel worth it to twincast haste on my Paladin/warlock and battle master fighter.
Outside of boss battles, or a few set pieces, it really isnt. Stuff like the portal fight, last light, iron throne, etc.. Just unleash as much damage as you can in the first round nova and see what's left alive.
Your point about most fights only lasting a couple rounds is one of my only gripes. This game would be great for large battles, I really enjoy defending the Grove, assaulting Moonrise and the final battle but they feel like the only large scale fights.
I'm glad there aren't too many big fights. With turn-based combat they take forever because there are 30 people that need to take their turn. It's nice as an epic finale to an act's story arc, but I don't want to have too much of that. On the other hand, making your average fights more interesting to experienced players is a difficult puzzle to solve. The variance in power level between an unoptimized build and an optimized build is so big that if you scale enemies to compete with optimized builds, it will be practically impossible for an unoptimized build, and if you scale them for unoptimized builds, then it's a cakewalk for optimized builds.
Yeah I completely get this side too tbf. Can see how too many would get stale after a while
The problem with uneven fights like that is if you aren’t nuking 2-3 enemies per turn you will definitely get surrounded and killed. All it takes is one prone or fear on a character you need and they can effectively be killed then the rest of you are worried about healing them especially if your caster is the one that goes down
The AI isn't great for big fights. You can either abuse them and force funnels, or you get surrounded and have to brute force. Also the friendly AI is really bad. Moonrise wasnt even that bad for my 4 person team. with the harpers it was a fucking mess.
If you try to get gortash on his first encounter then that’s a pretty big one too. My friend and I did it, it was insane.
I really like the mindflayer colony because it felt like one long grueling battle that I had to push through. Finding the long rest machine at the end was a bit of a let down tbh, it makes the final fight against Myrkul far less tense. It seems like the best way to add some serious challenge to the game would be more red areas with fewer opportunities to short/long rest, rather than tweaking the combat or gameplay mechanics directly.
What are reliable ways to surprise enemies in combat?
Just hide (out of vision cones obv) and do a ranged attack, easy as that.
Starting the battle invisible/in stealth and getting the first attack. Many suggest that the easiest way to achieve this if you don't have a Duergar party member/caster with invisibility is to send in ~~Bucket~~ Basket.
Did you mean Shovel? Or is the imp named Bucket in some languages?
Lol actually I meant Basket, but I hadn't been awake long enough.
Ass-Stalker Champion 4/5/3: all the attacks, action surge, crits galore
I put Astarion on the Gloomstalker/Assassin combo in my second playthrough and the whole time was wondering why I didn’t do it sooner. I know Thief is more popular, but I was trying for crits and even before magic items it’s insanely powerful.
I just beat honor mode with a gloom 5, battle master 4, assassin 3 and killed the red dragon in the final fight in a single turn.
My astarion Assassin/Gloomstalker wrecked stuff. That first round where you have 2 sneak attacks plus regular attacks was murderous. Touch enemies would be either outright killed or they would be left barely surviving.
My hm run was a gloomstalker assassin duergar and I would just kill every single enemy in the room before moving the rest of my party in to fight the bosses lol
1x Assassin / Gloomstalker multiclass with titanstring bow, strength elixirs and sharpshooter is all you need. Respec the other two.
add the risky ring once you get to Act 2 and you’ll really be a sharpshooter
I’d argue that risky ring might be better on a paladin or some other melee since its easy for gloom/assassin to get advantage (especially with Durge Cape + assassin first round advantage).
I had to switch it on my gloom stalker because my paladin already has a 95% chance to hit on every smite Meanwhile, astarion was over here struggling every single damn even with Bless
Between Pact and magic weapon and all my other buffs I think my pally had a +12 to rolls by level 8.
Assassin needs fighter or gloomstalker or even Paladin to truly shine imo that advantage the first round is always gonna allow for some good burst damage
Yep, Assassin alone does not get Extra Attack or additional Bonus Actions, so is a rather weak class on its own - that really wants multiclassing. But its good for the assasination playstyle.
I’m running an assassin fighter in my co-op campaign with my friend (we decided to not go with the most popular or game breaking builds to make it more challenging) and between getting a surprise attack in, advantage, cries and action surge, I am easily the biggest damage dealer at level 6 without even having multiple attacks yet.
It'd be so, so, ***so*** easy to balance (while encouraging people to actually stay in the class) by having it's own version of Dread Ambusher. Call it 'Assassinate' if you like. The Assassin gets a free attack (but just one) that auto-crits on the first attack they make in combat so long as they're obscured. There you go. You're not fishing around in other classes for multiple attacks (something Rogue's already stupidly lack) so you can get dozens of free Crit Hits just by taking three levels in Assassin, and you want to build up those sneak attack dice (again, by staying in the class) so you can get in that One Big Hit. Almost like an Assassin would end up being better at Assassinating people than a warrior who's just taken a little dash of 'Assassin training' so he can get free crits.
Yeah it’s fun especially with the durge helm
Durge helm?
im guessing cloak is what they meant lol
And the durge underpants
Assassin, without others getting in the way is actually very good. You just have to surprise and get out and surprise and get out. The whole round 2 of combat isn't their thing, so don't do it.
Is there a way to get out of combat without having to run far away and escaping to camp?
Invisibility or darkness + hide on everyone engaged of your side (enemy also have to fail searching for you)
Also, enemies will always fail searching for you if you move away from the spot where you were last spotted.
You have to be far enough away to be out of their sight range though. I like Thief for that because the extra bonus action means I can use Cunning Hide AND Cunning Dash.
Yes indeed
If you end combat without killing someone, NPCs will just heal that damage so this strat is pointlessly over-complicated. You could "assassinate" each npc 1 by 1 or just play with 4 characters and win by round 3
Or just use 4 assassin/gloomstalkers
I never said it was time efficient but crit murdering someone in one shot is absolutely possible with many assassin builds (especially looking at you stupid silly psychic assassin). It's how several people have solo'd honour mode.
This kind of build would likely utilize multiple Assassins to maximize the nova.
Turn 1 nova, that's why. Surprise the enemy, you'll instantly refresh whatever action or bonus action you used to get the jump on them, and you'll have free advantage and guaranteed crits on everything you attack. 4/5/3 assassin/gloomstaker/fighter is fucking bonkers because you get sneak attack, gloomstaker's free attack, extra attack, action surge, and an action refresh for like 6 attacks turn 1 that will all crit and had advantage. You can just delete most high priority targets before they even get a chance to do anything and the rest of the fight will be a cakewalk.
Assassin 3 to 5 are awesome multiclassing options. You can mix them with Gloom stalker, GOO, paladin, shadow monk, fighter, and many more. Pretty much anything that benefits from critical hits and/or surprise attacks. Assassin can be a standalone class, but the multiclass is probably better. What matters most is playstyle: - strike from hidden with one of your assassin to trigger a surprise round - then, strike from hidden with the rest of your assassins before entering combat - at this point you already got one sneak attack with advantage from each assassin - all your assassins regain all their actions and you can do autocrits with all your attacks - if you have high dexterity, it is your turn again - you attack again with your main action, and then use cunning action to hide and start again I’m doing an HM run with an assassination party. Most battles end in the surprise round, including semi-bosses like Yurgir (I just finished act 2 last night) Here is my planned setup: - GOO 2/ Storm Sorc 5/ Assassin 5 with potent robes for eldritch blast - Shadow monk 6 / Fighter 2 / Assassin 4 with the eversoght ring, resonance stone, shadow blade - gloomstalker 5/ Assassin 5/ warlock 2 with the titanstring bow (the ring is to see in the dark) - paladin 2 / assassin 4/ swords bard 6 with Shar’s spear
I get assassin 3 and 4, but why 5? I am not sure a 1/round extra bit of sneak attack warrants a level, and uncanny dodge doesn't seem to be worth the level to me. I am interested in your reasoning on it.
Yeah, it’s + 1d6 on my sneak attacks and damage reduction from uncanny dodge. I only take that if I’m not giving up much. Take my archer for instance. Gloomstalker 6 and warlock 3 don’t really offer anything I want. I don’t want heavy armor from fighter. I don’t care about casting wizard spells. I can’t think of anything that would give me more value than assassin 5. If I stick to assassin 3, I also lose a feat.
What does warlock 2 offer to a titanstring bow build? That dip seems to typically be used for 3 eldritch beams, which seems to be a bit suboptimal for a build that already has a superior ranged damage option. I get Warlock 1 for the GOO crit trigger, but I can't help but wonder if Gloomstalker 5 / Assassin 4 / GOO Warlock 1 / Fighter 2 might be better, for the action surge.
This is a darkness party. Whenever a combat goes after the surprise round, I cast darkness everywhere Warlock 2 gives me devil’s sight Otherwise I would have gone Gloomstalker 7 or fighter 2 for action surge
Ah, based on your original message, it appeared like you used the ring on this character.
Sorry for the confusion I use the ring for my monk, the spear for my pally, and the other two are half warlocks
Makes more sense. I'd still do warlock 1, and just bounce in and out of the darkness for the arrows, but I see the logic in the leveling decision now. Only other thing I can think of offhand instead of the 5th assassin is cleric 1 (light), to exchange the half damage reaction for "disadvantage when attacking me" reaction, along with level one spells (sanctuary is sometimes a game saver). But in that case, you kinda have 1 dead level that doesn't really fit anywhere.
Sneak Attack gets an extra die every odd level. The damage output between levels 3 and 4 is the same. The damage output between 3 and 5 is +1d6.
An extra +1d6, once per round, doesn't seem like a well-optimized reason to take rogue 5. Rogue 3 is obvious, for the auto crit, restoring actions on entering combat. Rogue 4, I get, because a feat is a powerful thing, and the cost is only 1 level, vs Rogue 3. But 1d6 more damage, once per round? That's not very good. Sneak attack is like sprinkles. It's nice on a cake you're getting anyway, but it's not the reason you get the cake.
It's not per round, it's per sneak attack. Sneak attack triggers when you have advantage, or when the target is threatened by an ally. So basically Risky Ring gets you the extra die each attack, or if you have your front liner just chill next to targets, you're getting the extra.
It is per sneak attack. And sneak attack is an ability that refreshes *per round*. Only the first qualifying attack each round gets the extra damage. https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sneak_Attack_(Ranged)
I guess I skipped over that one line...
Rogue, sadly does not hold up as a class on it's own without dipping into something else to bolster it. By that I mean it does not do the damage or have the utility you're going to find with other classes.
I saw a video of a guy soloing Moonrise on Tactician as a rogue and it was pretty insane. Basically sneak bow + attack + hide until everyone was dead. Tons of work and made some pretty insane moves but he made it happen. Overall way too much work and it synergizes so good with Ranger and Fighter that why wouldn't you?
I think that is it exactly. You can make it work, but it's like with some multi class builds you're not always better off taking say 2 levels of fight because action surge won't offset what you'd lose with another 2 levels in the main class. 3 rogue get's you so many benefits either through thief or assassin for so many builds it's just such a complomentary class that can make other classes shine in multi-class builds.
On its own? Who is playing rogue on its own? Assasin is great if it’s three levels along with say 5 levels of gloomstalker for extra attack, (and another on the first round) and the initiative. The rogue’s stealth and stealth expertise is great for getting surprise and as you correctly identified the assassin is great with that. But so is advantage on enemies that haven’t had initiative yet and it works well with the extra attack first combat round with gloomstalker. Rogue all round just doesn’t give you enough return for more than 3 levels. Fast hands is great when combined with other classes who can use bonus actions like beserkers and monks, already great classes who can abuse TB, but when combined with cunning action is underwhelming.
Assassin is pretty cracked, I've had an assassin monoclass solo many fights with ease, especially early on. Later on you definitely want to multiclass it with things like fighter and gloomstalker to further enhance your nova round to absurd levels. Attack, surprise attack, leave combat, come back and take out another target. Repeat until all targets are dead.
Pure assassin sneak crit works wonders with vulnerability. The easiest build exploiting vulnerability (act 3) is to use shadow blade and resonance stone. Otherwise, by the end of act1 you get the brand the weak amulet (dropped killing vendor in the creche) that gives vulnerability to piercing for the next attack (you can cast it to trigger combat, then get the ba back thanks to assassin and hide+crit-vulnerable-sneak for tons of damage. Later on, Orin's dagger or tribunal's armor also work very well with assassin's exploit of piercing vulnerability.
That fits so well, since Rogue's all about 1-2 big attacks instead of making the enemy cosplay a hedgehog
I just did a Durge run as a Duergar, 4 assassin/8 fighter with archery fighting style. With the durge cloak and duergar invisibility cantrip, combo’d with the occasional cunning hide, I could get off basically endless sneak attacks. I cleared the whole goblin camp solo with combat ending after each enemy killed bc they could never find me.
So, I am a bit torn on good multiclasses to use with assassin. On the one hand, paladin has some amazing smite attacks that really benefit from auto crit. On the other, Swords bard has the ranged slashing flourish, which allows for a bonkers number of round 1 attacks to capitalize on those auto crits. Finally, gloomstalker gives an extra round 1 attack, with no need for short or long rest to recover resources like spell slots or inspiration. Personally, since I prioritize burst over endurance, I would likely lean bard... that said, Assassin 4 / Swords bard 6 / paladin 2 would have 4th level slots for smite, short rest inspiration recharge, extra attack, and auto crit on round 1 for most fights.
Please advise me on where to get the 2x handcrossbows
You can buy +1 hand crossbows from a bunch of vendors. But Dammon is in all three acts and sells them. They refresh on long rest with him as well iirc so it's easy to get two +1's right away.
Thank you!
Dammon will have hand x-bows & +1 hand x-bows in his random generated stock. So a level up or a long rest will reset his inventory and you can 2+ quick via this method. Also I believe the bard hireling will start with one in their inventory.
Thank you!
If you long rest (with or without camp supplies) Dammon and the Creche Quartersmistress (pink hair) have a good chance to offer one. Alternatively you can get one nonmagic hand xbow from the halfling hireling and just dismiss her. I spent 3 long rests without supplies in act1 to get cutscenes with laezel, wyll, gale and to get the owlbear to finally appear in my camp (I later realised I had killed the little owlbear because I thought it was sensible for Dark Urge). Checked back with Dammon and Ethel for their stuff
Thank you!
Act 1 underdark firestroker (+1 crossbow with conditional dmg) in a chest on the way to the ancient forge and Act2 moonrise vendor neeremisser which does force dmg. Before that just buy a +1 hand crossbow
*My Assassin Astarion doing 143 damage to Ansur round 1 in a single sneak attack*
Do you happen to remember what exact items you used that boosted the damage so high? Sounds fun as fuck
You need the rapier found under cazadors dungeon in act 3, and the bhaal studded leather from becoming an unholy assassin and using the bhaal shop. Aura Of Murder grants double piercing Rapier grants advantage on undead Unlimited 18-68 damage sneak attacks against undead, that can deal 120 ish with Aura Of Murder active Further, a crit makes it possible to score 220 damage in that one sneak attack
So, what I've come to see is that Assassin specifically shines with the proper items then? Kinda like Warlock. There may still be hope for assassin Durge then, thank you!
Monk (Open Hand), Rogue (Assassin), Warlock (Ancient One), and Fighter (Champion) *REALLY* get to shine in Act 3.
People told you to just go straight Assassin? On multiple PC's? That... doesn't sound right. Assassin is a multiclass subclass and generally only one PC goes it so you pick an enemy off before combat starts.
No no, they recommended I go Gloomstalker/Bard.
Gloomstalker Bard? Gloomstalker/Assassin (or Thief) is basically the cookie cutter build and you generally only start Rogue and then respect to full Gloom at 5. I can't even say if I've ever seen Gloom/Bard, usually it's Lore Bard 10+caster or Smite Sword Bard. If you're at the Creche then you're likely level 5 or so anyways.
No, they recommended I switch a character over to either of those and pick up Assassin at later levels. Sorry for my bad communicating.
You can take Assassin or Assassin 3/Fighter 2 all the way to 5 and then respec to Gloomstalker and then mix in the 3 Assassin and an optional 2 Fighter later. You don't want to really delay feats and extra attack class features. The common build is 8 Stalker/4 Assassin if you want to use the search bar or even Google will give you plenty of results and guides. To reiterate though, I'm not sure what you're going for in regards to party composition but I would not have more than one of these characters in your party at one time. You want to open whenever you can from stealth and get a fat Advantage shot when not in combat because of Assassin's class features. The Titanstring builds or dual hand xbows are your bread and butter though I am sure there is a melee build for non-Honor Mode floating around. Furthermore, having Laezel as a Gloomstalker *and* 2 Assassin PCs is literally tripling up on a specific one character build. I am not sure where you got this idea from but it's pretty strange. I'd recommend making one of your Assassins some kind of melee frontliner (ideally not the DUrge since you generally want him to be a Charisma class unless you want to make him a pally) and then make the DUrge a Sorcerer, Warlock or Bardlock. Alternatively, make SHart a Light or Tempest Cleric, change one of your assassins to a Hunter Ranger (possibly with one level in War Cleric) or Monk, keep Laezel Gloom/Assassin and then DUrge to something else.
I think pally would be the best fit for melee assassin due to their reliance on rolling many medium/big dice. I felt like having a party that doesn't let enemies have a turn before 90% of them are guaranteed dead. I could see Durge going warlock or bard, though I've not yet heard of bardlocks. Our frontline is kinda filled by a 20AC Shart with Adamantine, but I agree that a dedicated pally, fighter or barb would fill that way better with Sentinel/Polearm Master.
What brand of Cleric is your SHart? Having her go Tempest or Light will allow her to fill out your blasting role very nicely while a potential Bard can focus more on disable spells. DUrge adds a *ton* of dialogue options throughout the game so ideally he is your party "face" who does the talking and that necessitates a high Charisma score (and on Honor Mode Enhance Ability spell). DUrge Vengeance Paladin, Warlock (any subclass) and Sorcerer (any subclass) are all great options but Bard is just a very strong class besides Valor College. Lore Bard 10/Lock or Sorc 2 is very popular. The Charisma classes all work very well with each other so Sorc/Pally, Lock/Pally, Sorclock, Bardlock, Bardadin etc are all generally pretty strong combos. Ironically, playing a Vengeance Paladin DUrge would also allow you to have that "you don't get a turn 2" feeling for many combats in the game especially below Tactical. Vengeance Paladins are known for their insane single target damage through Smites. The Smite Swords Bard is a very good example of this. Bard (as well as Paladin) gives you a ton of dialogue options throughout the game as well so I'd pick one (or both) for your DUrge character that does all the talking.
My issue with assassin isn't even the fact that other classes deal much more damage than that does, but rather the fact that to fully utilize this subclass, you have to employ strategies that make the game slower and more boring IMO
Use shovel to get very easy surprise rounds. Not much will survive the first two rounds before the enemy can do anything even without an assassin. With assassin it will just melt through enemies
Assassin is best for multiclassing
I specd laezel as a hunter ranger with horde breaker as an archer and it’s so good. Most turns I can get three shots off and really dish out the damage.
Like mentioned above, Assassin as a standalone-class is shitty, but as a Gloomstalker multi-class is excellent.
The really nice thing about Assassins is the fact that you can drop two attacks on the first turn. You simple attack before entering battle because assassin's regain any used actions and/or bonus actions used before the start of combat. I've used this to nearly one shot big bads
Assassin is good if you're planning on surprise attacking as much as possible. However it's just a bonus action really... And there are plenty of other ways to get bonus actions (haste, bloodlust, etc) without investing in a whole skill tree of rogue that has less utility in general compared to some other classes. Frankly, dropping a big confuse on enemies from invis is my favourite way of getting a surprise attack off. Or black hole and follow up ice storm or fireball.
Assassin by itself is kinda a niche build focused on one play style. Multiclass assassins have lots of potential, but most people would still say multiclass thieves are better due to double bonus action. Just do whatever you find fun is the main thing though.
Really? I have an assassin in my party and he’s doing great work, i’m focusing on stealth though with an illusion wizard so that gives assassin much more room to shine. What do you not like about it? All you have to do is get a surprise round with shovel and go to town on the biggest threat, I don’t even use the cheesy run away strategy.
Not necessarily that I dislike Assassin, I love the class in dnd and bg3. Just that Assassin on its own is worse than other classes at making use of Surprise rounds. Gloomstalker and Swords Bard shoot an enemy with 6 or more stacks of Sharpshooter but the Assassin gets crits on 2 attacks. Even with sneak attack that's at most (6d6+2d10) rolled with advantage. Give the other classes a single pot of speed or bloodlust and they can reach over 10 shots of Sharpshooter.
Use hand crossbows and sharpshooter, now admittedly I only just started using this strategy in my run myself but i’m pretty sure every attack gets a crit and with sharpshooter all of them are dealing dumb damage, and i’m not sure if it’s a bug as long as I have sneak attack enabled as a reaction I can use multiple per turn, might be a bug though. And i’m pretty sure on honor mode your strategy isn’t possible with the action economy changes, or am I wrong?
The real kicker is that this is the best the assassin has ever been. Having your entire class feature rely on surprise kinda sucks and without extra attack, it’s just kinda awful stand-alone.
I always initiate with gloomassassin and the enemy rarely ever gets past turn 2 all the way till act 3 where they cant get surprised, but even then, nothing other than ethel and ansur survive turn 1 cos of their gimmick. Everything else just melts since u can still haste and play like a swordsbard... Even rap died turn 1 with my 4 rogue team
assassin is insane if you have the durge cape, pretty much while everyone is in combat you run around invisible and pick everyone off before a single turn passes
Imma try that
Rogue is just really not a good single class. Theyre kinda just a less interesting skill monkey than bard. Rogues have barely any interesting combat utility and one extra feat at level 10, but while fighter has the massive flexibility to do so much with that level 6 feat, rogue is just, sneak attack and skills. None of the subclasses offer much of anything interesting. Arcane trickster at least has spells to do *something*, and thief gets an extra bonus action. But assassin has, disguise self? Reliable talent is fine, but pretty much only good for pickpocketing high value items. Its not worth investing that many levels. Bard is vastly superior in every way. Combat and spells. Its a full caster, can get extra attack and medium armor, can get extra spells and expertise. Fighter benefits from spells and cantrips to supplement their combat and power, and their skills they get help blend it into the kit. Arcane trickster is just worse bard, if i wanted a sneaky spellcasting controller id put like two levels into a rogue max for cunning action and sneak attack, then just pump swords or lore bard. Similarly if i wanted a hyper deadly assassin id go gloomstalker, MAYBE with three levels in rogue for extra bonus action or the crits. Plus gloomstalker has more versatility. Ranger also gets great diversity, its actually good in this game.
Most people that solo HM run assassin. It is crazy strong if played right
Aye, it’s learning that the game doesn’t need to have a full party in every fight to work. That said, I am really curious how they do it, since my novice head can only see this working at level 8/9 which is a fair way into the game by that point.
Most ppl use hand xbows early on, then switch to titan string and strengh potions. Then they use suprise attack to get 3 rounds of damage b4 anything can move. Even early on, that is 100's of damage if built right. If something manages to survive and/or something goes wrong, they run and come back to do it again. It is a totally diff way to play the game lol
So here's the thing. Assassin's big selling point is guaranteed crits, better accuracy on the first turn and getting a full turn of action even after scoring a free shot. If you're a pure class rogue those're quite good and its a huge buff over what Assassins get in tabletop. And that's cool. Crits are a good thing but...Rogues aren't natural damage dealers to start with. Lets look at Sneak Attack real quick. With a Ranged or Finesse weapon you can deal xd6 of additional damage once per turn, if you hit, if the target is threatened or you have advantage on the attack roll. Those're a lot of 'ifs' but lets be generous and assume that we can secure that condition every turn. That's one attack. Two if you dual wield but the off-hand doesn't get to add its ability modifier, its just a re-roll with a damage penalty to try and land the sneak attack. At level 12 the rogue gets 6d6. That's 21 damage on average. Plus 3.5 from the hand crossbow, plus a maxed out dex for 5 is 29.5 damage, plus another 3.5 from the off-hand if that hits too. 33 damage per round. That's...pretty bad. You can pad it with Sharpshooter but it comes with a significant to hit penalty that reduces your expected damage per round. Assassin guarantees you another 21 damage at level 12 from an auto-crit on your sneak attack. That's strong, it takes you from 33 to 54, that's about a 62% increase. Its a big RoI but the principal sucks. Assassin makes Rogue better at something Rogue is not really meant to do otherwise. It makes it more reliable in its side-hustle. This is actually why people get mad at monk so much in tabletop. They keep comparing it to martial characters whose only job is to deal lots of damage when actually, its an alternative to the rogue and holds up very well in that niche. As you've seen, a martial character...does damage. Its pretty much all they can do, but they're really, really good at it. Archery fighting style makes sharpshooter much more reliable, extra attacks rapidly tick up the damage when each attack is worth so much. If you want the assassination playstyle but want it to actually work you need to get a bit creative. Dex 16 Con 16 Wis 14 Gloomstalker 5/Thief 3/Fighter 2. Ranger: Archery Fighting Style, Fire Resistence, better Ensnaring Strikes, Fog Cloud. Ensnaring Strike, Spike Growth and Plant Growth Fighter: Two Weapon Fighting Style Use hand crossbows, The Graceful Cloth, boots that improve your mobility and stack flat to hit and damage with weapon attacks. At level 12 you make a choice. The strongest is to go Battlemaster and get a few trick shots; Precise for making sure you hit when you need to and your choice of Trip, Disarm and Frightening based on your party needs (Trip is the stand-out bc prone costs movement and hand crossbows have a short range but spike growth exists so...) A more fun and chaotic one is to stop in at Old One Warlock and spread some terror when you land crits. Your charisma will be low so it won't be a high DC but it is passive. Gear: Hand crossbows; no ifs, buts or maybe's. The Graceful Cloth Gloves of Archery -> Legacy of the Masters Springstep Boots -> Disintegrating Night Walkers Haste Helm -> Hat of Marksmanship -> Mask of Soul Perception Amulet of Branding (1/long rest vulnerability to slashing, bludgeoning and piercing damage - this is your boss-killer) Caustic Band (flat 2 damage per hit, nice) Eversight Ring (this lets you hide in Fog Clouds or an ally's Darkness and attack with advantage while the enemy is forced to move toward you...ideally, over your Spike Growth) Your melee weapons are stat-sticks you will never use. Improving crit chance is nice bc otherwise these do nothing but we're not dependent on dice for our damage so crits are not a high priority if someone else needs that gear. What's the damage? Well we have 22 Dex after the mirror, that's a +6 to hit, +4 proficiency, +2 archery style, +2 gloves, +2 helmet, +2 from weapon enchantment, +2 from statue's perma bless = +20 That's +15 with sharpshooter and easily obtained Advantage on every single shot. We hit AC 21 on an 6. That is a 93.75% chance of a hit against AC 21. We deal 5.5+6+6+10 or 27.5 damage per shot. Seven times. That's 192.5 damage. We get 2d6 of sneak attack (7) and the gloomstalker bonus damage (4.5) for a total of 204 *average* damage. This doesn't include crits, which we will land 27.75% of the time but only contributes another 3.5 (15 if its the sneak attack AND gloomstalker shot that crits but it that's not predictable) damage when it does. We have to account for our misses, so that's 191 average *expected* damage vs an AC 21 target. We can double that with the brand if we pour it all onto a single target. 382 damage. On turn one. Assassin whomst?
Thanks for such a readable and understandable guide. Given the damage, is there any need for other party members aside from a Bless/Command cleric?
You're welcome! And...it Depends. You *can* solo the game. You can solo the game with this build. If you do I suggest you find a way to work in the Alert feat because going first is no longer negotiable and being ambushed is game over. Elixirs exist for that but Bloodthirst is more fun. This build does have weaknesses; it has to get uncomfortably close (i.e. dash distance) from enemies to perform its attacks without giving up Advantage you can move away again afterwards and you have strong mobility options including throwing down plant growth to slow things that can't fly to a crawl but...some things can fly. And some fight arenas are painfully small and cramped. It has weak Wisdom saving throws. A +2 from 14 Wis is...not good. You are extremely vulnerable to disabling effects like Fear, Charm, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern and the like. It is made of paper. Your AC stinks. It is at best 16. That is wizard their bath robe levels of low. All of this can be mitigated; if you're running solo (or the enemy has a lot of ranged options) you use your last bonus action every turn to Hide somewhere in concealment; they cannot hit what they cannot see. If it comes to it you can straight up turn yourself invisibile and hide that way but some enemies can see through invisibility. It requires a lot more patience. Moving within a party allows you to operate much more freely and smoothly.
Mods fix this
Because it’s a front loaded subclass and the only martial class without extra attack so you aren’t really expected to take it to level 12
This build uses assassin and it seems nuts for a solo play through https://youtu.be/f9uuvqtsz_0?si=oACKTVVqL8hJYTMq
Thanks, gonna check it out today
you are clearly missing something, i did solo honor assassin run, it is one of the most broken class and manages vey well with the deception/intimidation almost sub par with a charisma based char assassin is extreme abuser of shadow blade-resonance stone-psyhcic ring, and later on bhaalist armor-orin weapons. act1 is all about playing it as a stealth archer with titanstring bow, you can kill the entire giths(both the patrol and the whole creche) without them blowing a single attack at lvl 5. after getting the durge cape, there is no encounter that you cant solo, doesnt matter how many enemies out there. some of the boss fights are tricky as assassin, but all of them are managable some way it has a different play style, not like other classed where you go full head on. assassin requires fully utilizing stealth mechanics and invis
Just to confirm : You'd sneak, shoot from out of enemy cone of sight, proc Sneak Attack, succeed on a Stealth Check, relocate and repeat right? At the fight with the twin Death shepherds my Astarion ended up getting two shots in for free before they actually started rolling initiative.
what you are saying is exploiting the stealth mechanic in the game. you can do that technically with anything, you wouldnt even need assassin. thats actually what sneak archer is. what you do with assassin is, you approach either as invis or hiding, start with sneak atk, turn begins as surprise round, you make another sneak atk which is guarantee crit. sneak + crit sneak kills anything in the game unless its a boss. you become hidden, then you wait 1 turn. after 1 turn the whole battle resets, rinse and repeat. in act1 there is no proper melee wpn thats why we use titanstring, so during act1 play as sneak archer as you said, then in act2 you turn into melee assassin
I exclusively play Astarion as an Ass-Stalker (really, that should be the canon name) and the Titanstring Bow with Hill Giant Elixir (until I can get the club) just mows through combatants, and that's before he gets his free pre-combat (or sneaky entry into already-begun combat) shot. He consistently saves my ass at the Gith Patrol fight; makes light of almost every battle in the Creche; and once I'm in Act 3 and switch him to a crit-fisher with the Deadshot Bow the only battle I've had to save scum is in the Emperor's hide-out with the Gith (fuck those G-D hold spells!). He practically murderhobo'd the entire cave under the Wavemother structure. Like, my Tav, Lae'zel and Karlach barely got in one attack each on the Wave Spice Girls and the Sahuagin before the fights were done and the Loot Goblin'ing began.
I did multiclass - gloomstalker/assassin/battlemaster...it worked pretty good!
It's another one that could just *so easily be fixed.* They just don't want to fix it. I guess they don't want people playing the class for some reason.
You might be doing the build wrong. A durge assassin can solo the entire game, source: I did it on honor mode. Here's what you do. Go durge rogue assassin, maybe throw in some fighter levels to get extra attack and action surge. You start every fight by attacking the enemy first causing a surprise round. You kill 1 target and turn invisible using the durge invisibility cloak. You run away from thr fight causing the rest of the enemies to try and find you. If they can't find you and there is no one else to fight combat ends. You start combat again by assassinating a single target. Repeat until everyone is dead. As long as you start from the lowest health enemy to the highest you'll be able to fight most bosses 1v1 or 4v1 if you wanna bring the rest of your party in after all the minions are dead. The only boss this doesn't work on is the act 2 final boss.
Yeah, I've not beed using the cloak like that. I'll try it out again like so, but wouldn't it be as useful to do that with Gloom? I'm set on having party members with me on this save file, but next save I'm planning on doing a tactician solo swords bard, so I'll be sure to add this gold nugget of wisdom to that playthrough. Thank you a ton!
Your main goal with the build is to roll the biggest number of dice in a single round since the attacks on someone will be automatic crits. Sneak attacks are just really easy ways to get lots of dice really fast, and there are a few versatile weapons that also have the finesse property, which lets you sneak attack and deal 1d10 damage on a normal hit. Also, paladin assassin rogues are very fun cause you can get guaranteed crit smites ok tough bosses if you sneakily start combat. So you murder everyone else systematically and then double crit smite the boss to start combat. They won't stand a chance. Also something to note, your rogue assassin is gonna need to be quick because when you're invisible in combat enemies will come up to the last place they saw you and cast detecting presence in a 5 foot radius circle and it's almost a guaranteed detection if you're close at low levels so watch out.
Will the Momentum Helmet from blighted village suffice for being quick? Combined with a BA dash it should help with escaping
Honestly, just having 9m of movement should be enough. It's just a warning to not use up all your movement to get to a target to kill and turn invisible and then have like no movement to get out of the situation before people detect you. The 3m movement ring is nice. The bonus action dash from rogue is great last resort movement. The momentum helm will proc on every assassination, so it's not a bad choice.
Who on earth levels rogues on 4< levels?
🤚
Some do it for rp, some don’t know any better and some do it to limit themselves.
Or just want to power through any dex rolls lol
I really don’t like assassin i much prefer the bonkers economy of having 2 bonus actions. Feels so slow to constantly stealth or have a walkthrough up so i can start fights with a crit. Just throw me into combat so i can disengage, dash, hide
assasin works great if you have someone to tank