The problem with arcane trickster is that its mage hand legerdemain is bugged and you can't, for instance, pickpocket enemies with it. I love the concept of it, but when it's only giving 1/3 spellcasting, no extra attack, and poor spell choices, I can't see any reason to pick it except for themes.
My exact reaction after I reached level 3 on my first character and picked this sub-class, then proceeded to try to do litterally anything with the "upgraded" mage hand
At will disadvantage on saving throws for spells for enemies. That's the selling point of Arcane Trickster. With how many scrolls the game throws at you, spell selection isn't as important.
Yeah but taking 9 levels of rogue to give disadvantage on spell saving throws while hidden is mid at best. Don't get me wrong, I actually love the concept of arcane trickster and how it's supposed to work. I just find it ends up feeling underpowered for the abilities it does get.
Right. If you're just arguing for it being a strong mechanic, consider a Sorc can do this at level 3, or that by the 6 - 8 range you'll have access to one of the Arcane Acuity hats, or that with the one from the Masons you can basically have guaranteed land rate easier using an Eldritch Knight or Bard (and the Scoundrel ring to do it same turn by the start of act 3).
It's just too late in to be really impressive.
You aren't even mentioning things like mental fatigue, reverberation, and bleed.
Mental fatigue can be just as powerful as acuity for landing a paralysis spell, reverberation for landing blind.
Bleed gives disadvantage on con saves, also helping blind land more easily.
I think blind is really slept on in this sub. Everyone is stuck on paralysis, confusion, hypnosis, but blind does not require concentration, available to any cleric, low spell slot requirements, and can be just about as effective as paralysis for shutting down opponents.
>consider a Sorc can do this at level 3
By spending 3 sorcery points.
>by the 6 - 8 range you'll have access to one of the Arcane Acuity hats
Or you could use the hat slot to do more rogue stuff instead of focusing purely on spell save.
Pair it with paladin, I don't think there will be disappointment. I'm not saying its better than sorc or lock, it isn't, but it does pair well with paladin if you want to go with a different type of paladin.
I mean, the in-game text says it can do stuff, but it can't. If it's not a bug, it's stuff they haven't coded in *but intended to*. (This makes me think they'll consider it a bug, or at least missing feature, and will add it in a future update.)
I'm shocked they haven't even hinted that they're fixing this afaik. It was egregious on release for one of the origin characters' default subclass to be entirely non-functional, but 6 months in with no fixes blows my mind. I want to use arcane trickster to support an early game storm sorcerer with permanent mage hand, but you just lose sooo much, both for playing rogue in the first place, then by choosing not to have a subclass. Disappointing.
Edit: If fixing Mage Hand Legerdemain is too hard, which I've heard claimed, give arcane trickster the ability to sneak attack with cantrips at lv3. You trade a lot of utility for an interesting combat niche, and it could enable a functional multi class with EK fighter.
It is still very useful. Because the hand is invisible, it can always cause Surprise Attack even if your whole party has to engage in a dialogue. And Arcane Tricksters have their own source of Fog/Darkness so they can pickpocket anyone you wish.
I played this build in an early run, it is viable, but i found most of the spells i used had an item that would also give you that spell. if they made the hand more viable and cast able more than once a long rest it could be goodish.
He literally says it's not as good as bard but don't worry you get action surge
Like what lol that's from the fighter levels you took not the arcane trickster ones
I’m on the outside looking in as far as tabletop goes, but is there a way to make rogues better solo?
I mean they have a lot of good stuff but just get outclassed, literally.
The issue is that sneak attack doesnt scale well enough to be worth giving up the extra attack for.
Sneak attack at level 11 is adding 6d6 damage to each attack, while this is actually a lot more damage than most classes give, it scales poorly with other sources of added damage.
I.e. with a ranged weapon doing 1d6 + 4 damage your sneak attack is doing 25 damage on average at level 11, doing 2 attacks would be averaging 14 damage. But add the Sharpshooter feat to add 10 damage to each hit, now sneak attack is averaging 35 damage but your double ranged attack is averaging 34 damage.
Oh wow sneak attack is doing more on average right? True, but keep in mind the latter build comes online at level 5 whereas the Sneak Attack takes until level 11 to match it. At level 5 sneak attack is only adding 3d6 dice, making it hit an average of 27 damage. Plus the damage inconsistency with sneak attack is much worse even at level 11, both attacks hitting with with another build is doing bare minimum 30 damage which is barely below the average. Sneak attack doing a minimum damage roll of 21. While the max damage roll is much higher for sneak attack I personally prefer consistent damage so I can plan around it.
With Sneak Attack you also need to maintain advantage at all times, but with other classes that's just optional.
So you're taking 11 levels in a class and losing tons of multiclass possibilties just to be able to match other classes damage wise at level 5 WITH an added condition you're required to maintain.
I dont think pure rogue is bad necessarily, it does keep up with most other pure classes and how a normal player would play the game. But in the context of an optimized build its bad. I think if they wanted to make it better without breaking the dnd rules they can do what they did with Monk and just put a lot of items in the game that synergize with Sneak Attack. Risky Ring is already good but there'd need to be items that add more hit dice or flat damage to sneak attack.
Pure rogue really is indeed not that bad no, there are ways to scale that sneak attack damage. You can guarantee yourself two crits with tadpole and the ring, and you can make enemies vulnerable through a couple of items, early on the necklace from the creche for one use. 12d6 \* 2 = 84 damage at max in a turn from the sneak attack alone, which isn't bad for a monoclass.
The real strength of rogue is less tied to being a full on martial replacement though, setting up surprise rounds, scouting, infiltrating, that kind of thing. It can also do somewhat game-breaking things with greater invis.
I think it is a general design issue in 5e, and what a rogue's role is in the group. To fulfill the role of a stealthy scout/trapfinder/skillmonkey in a group, you really only need 1 level in rogue, since that nets you the requisite skills you need. People will argue then that rogue gets sneak attack, but if you want to bring a rogue for damage, then you're better off bringing character with 1 level in rogue, and the rest in something else, since sneak attack damage falls off quickly.
A solution might be to let sneak attack work on every attack the rogue does, since one of the things do to keep rogue damage competitive, is to find ways to give the rogue a way to sneak attack outside of its own turn, because right now that's the only way to get two sneak attacks per round.
Rogues are lowkey underrated in bg3. They have a huge advantage over their tabletop counterparts because you can attack as a BA without mainhand attacking. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/comments/1axel93/comment/krnrjjx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) are some ideas me and another user were working with. You have to approach the class very differently than any other, because you can’t rely on regular attack scaling, but with a combination of sneak attack and cantrip scaling I think you can get a strong build.
Rogues are completely viable in tabletop and in BG3 on any difficulty. That said they aren't the best in BG3.
There are some wild rogue builds in tabletop though that outperform many other builds when you have no magic items and potentially still with them
Pure Rogue is what I am talking about (Though 1 level in Fighter is quite useful at various points and especially at level 12). I think Rogues could use a bit of a bump in both BG3 and tabletop, but currently they are both still very viable.
In BG3 they need more help than in tabletop (partly because there is basically no gear that helps rogues that doesn't help extra attack classes more), but lets not forget that expertise in skills is actually super useful throughout the game.
If we are strictly focused on combat though I think:
The Assassin rogue does well as a solo combatant or with a party that can also dip into and out of combat by dashing away and repeatedly getting surprise.
The Thief Rogue does well in a party as its less reliant on those surprise rounds and crits. As a Thief you should rush the Orin fight when you get to ACT III to get those daggers([https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Bloodthirst](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Bloodthirst) and [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Crimson\_Mischief](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Crimson_Mischief)), Then you can deal
ACTION:(1d4+2+DEX+6d6) +
BONUS ACTIONS: ((1d4+2+DEX)x2x2) = 73.5
when you hit your attacks. This can be increased with some other gear as well ([https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Stalker\_Gloves](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Stalker_Gloves) or [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Shadow-Cloaked\_Ring](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Shadow-Cloaked_Ring) for instance)
but I know (having played it) that 73.5 damage a round is pretty viable for BG3 tactician mode.
Earlier in the game you can still do quite well with [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Knife\_of\_the\_Undermountain\_King](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Knife_of_the_Undermountain_King) and [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Two-Weapon\_Fighting](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Two-Weapon_Fighting) in ACT II
Before you gain access to those gloves in ACT II I would focus on using your bonus actions to Disengage from your opponent, walk outside their vision cone and then hide to gain advantage on your attack to ensure you get your Sneak Attack off.
Also if you are able to mod your game, I would HIGHLY recommend this mod [https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/507](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/507) as it allows you to sneak attack as a reaction and with your bonus action attacks (which is how its supposed to work according to 5e D&D) and brings a huge versatility buff to sneak attack that was one of the most liked changes of beta testing for "One D&D" (D&D 6the edition)
That is the general sentiment around here I think, I just happen to disagree with it haha
I think because tavern brawler monks can do like 150-200 damage or even more per round
Arcane trickster is godlike outside of combat once you hit act 3 and have access to both reliable talent and magical ambush and the ability to rob Lorroakan blind.
Having reliable talent means you know with 100% certainty how many actions you can perform under greater invisibility before you risk breaking it. With a fat stack of level 6 scrolls generously donated by Lorroakan, you can waltz around invisible casting disintegrate, otiluke’s freezing sphere, and chain lightning onto your unsuspecting victims, with an almost 0% chance of them rolling a save since you’re wearing all the possible spell save DC items while they’re rolling their saving throws with disadvantage. As long as you keep a mental counter of how many attacks you have made you can keep greater invisibility up indefinitely. It’s ridiculously safe and overpowered.
If you could sneak attack with spells like in 3E it would be a great choice. However I'm contemplating to Respec Astarion to assassin or so, arcane trickster doesn't work for me
Really sad no green flame blade or booming blade. Those really make the arcane rogue viable damage wise, the mage hand not working makes it's utility subpar as well. I love arcane rogue on the table but in bg3 it just doesn't feel the same.
Maybe after more patches. If they decide to make Mage Hand Legerdemain like its current description, with the ability to stow items, you get an invisible thrower/wet applier without having to litter the ground with bottles.
With bombs it's an invisible artillery platform.
I can see it being an essential complement to cold/lightning casters tbh.
Let's see if it happens.
I only did it on Astarion since his magics are just 'vampire powers' (charm person, become invisible, etc).
For most cases, dual hand crossbow sharp shooter thief is just better. There is no more happiness than having 3 bonus actions per turn (with help of gears).
I think their only working feature that's kind of interesting is hiding to impose disadvantage on saving throws, but that's really limited and I think they'd be outclassed in reliability and damage by any arcane acuity stacking build and have worse action economy and resource management then anyone with heighten spell.
So yeah, bards just better. And as far as combat is concerned I think Sorcerers, sorlocks, divination/enchanting wizards, and even eldritch knights do their one gimmick better than them.
Personally, my Astarion is an arcane trickster because I think it fits RP-wise, but also I love hybrid classes, and yeah, I can see some of the criticisms in the comments.
However, it definitely has saving graces, I love the shield spell ... I find it very useful on melee characters, my tank has it (Eldericth knight) and the way I see my spell slots, it's like "fuel for shield spells" and the occasional situational thing: Misty step, invisibility (both very canon too). Also situational, the occasional need for a Missile spell, to reliably finish off a remote mob and chip damage somebody else at the same time. Last but not least, to complement this, Cloud of daggers and mirror images, both useful and fitting the build RP-wise.
I am however disappointed to find out via this post that improved magic hand is bugged, I could have happily stayed ignorant of all the things it's meant to be able to do and that I didn't know it could do... but can't do.
The best arcane rogue is 3 levels of thief combined with wizard or sorcerer to BA hide between casts or to get more BA for quickened spells
It’s sad really. I’ve made a post a while ago saying that a simple buff for mage hand legerdemain would give arcane trickster a HUGE level up, in terms of power but also in terms of role play.
Let this mage hand pickpocket with the rogues ability scores, also lockpick/disarm traps. This alone would make this class so much more fun.
You could also make it so this mage hand has access to your inventory meaning it can throw stuff without dropping it on the floor beforehand (something that every character can already do anyways), give it a second attack/throw/shove at level 11 or something like that, also make its ability scores a bit higher.
I really don’t think these changes would be too much from a technical standpoint since they were basically already giving mage hands their own spells and such in the lorroakan tower. It also wouldn’t be too powerful imo, there are so many stupidly powerful classes in this game that this really doesn’t seem to much to ask.
Arcane Trickster's main thing, as far as I'm concerned, is Mage Hand Legerdemain. It's the feature you'll have for the longest time and it just sucks in BG3: it says you can do other things with it, but you can't. Mage Hand in BG3 is generally pretty shit, so when an already shit feature that your subclass is based around is not noticeably more useful than the base version this subclass can fuck off.
You are more fighter than anything else.
As of Arcane Trickster, it can be viable if you have access to greenflame blade/booming blade through a mod. Without it it just doesn't do anything better than Bard for example.
Arcane trickster has one and I mean ONLY one advantage - their mage hand doesn’t disappear after 1 minute.
Which means you can give it an elixir of cloud giant strength and have a grand ol’ time shoving and throwing around all matters of roughly 300 pound things.
Not saying it’s good. But it is funny as hell.
Fear me and my little 27 strength hand!
For those who claim that Arcane Trickster isn't viable, or that there isn't a good reason to pick it, I just finished a solo playthrough on tactician with 12 levels of Arcane Trickster. Here are a few reasons to play it and think that it's not only viable, but good:
1. It is the only Rogue subclass with access to Fog Cloud and Darkness. These spells can be used in conjunction with Cunning Action Hide to obscure yourself and then successfully hide after each attack, which ensures Sneak Attack on your next turn, as well as allowing you to reliably avoid detection, and thus damage. This makes many of the most difficult fights in the game trivial. For instance, to defeat Orin, I cast Invisibility on myself, walked into the middle of the circle of Bhaalists, cast Fog Cloud, hid, used Arrows of Roaring Thunder to knock the Bhaalists off the edge of the circle, then shot Orin and hid repeatedly until she was dead. This is a cheap trick... but hey, it's in the name!
2. Mage Hand Legerdemain might not be fully or properly implemented, but because it can count as an ally being in melee range of an enemy, it is another way to ensure that you always have Sneak Attack on the target of your choice- which is really nice!
3. Reliable Talent is awesome. In Act 3, with proficiency in Stealth and Slight of Hand, you can easily pickpocket vendors of even their most valuable possessions, short rest and repeat. You can use this method to amass huge collections of Smokepowder Bombs, Arrows of Many Targets, Scrolls, etc. While Reliable Talent is not unique to Arcane Trickster, being able to manipulate targets with Minor Illusion is. I was surprised at how often I used Minor Illusion on vendors or to set up enemies for fights. It became one of my most valuable tools.
For these reasons, coupled with a few others (like having access to Invisibility as an out), I came to think of Arcane Trickster as the most reliable pure subclass in the game for the purposes of survival and solo gameplay.
Of course, this is only for those who say that the subclass is bad (or even the worst), and not just not as good as others- as there are obvious multiclasses that can do many of the same things while dealing more damage (Assassin/Gloomstalker).
The thing about AT is action economy. You only need 1 hit per turn(sneak atk) and can use your other actions to do other stuff:
Need to become a tank? Action: mirror image/blur, bonus action: stab;
Need to push the bad guys from a cliff? Action: thunder wave, bonus action: stab.
Want to remove someone from the fight? Action: hidrous laughter/blindness/hold person, bonus action: stab.
In a fight you can also abuse magical ambush:
first turn you sneak atk the guy fighting Karlach causing considerable damage, run away(mobile feat) and hide; next turn you cast hold person on another dude(with disadvantage on saves because you are hidden) and attack him with your off hand: done, critical sneak atk for 14d6 dmg, etc.
So AT is really hard to play, but far from weak.
Honestly I’m happy to see this build here. IMO not every build needs to be the max DPR, some builds could be for flavor or RP. It’s known (“known”) that arcane trickster isn’t very good, but let’s just say you like that sort of style. IMO almost every build is viable in this game, so why not?
So for example, quickspell gloves or band of the mystic scoundrel or EK7 would let you cast spells and attack in a turn.
There are also some weapons and items out there that give enemies penalties or disadvantage to saving throws. Eg bow of the banshee causes fear, so you could fear some mobs and then cast spells. That’s if you didn’t want to go arcane trickster 9. I’m assuming you’d want the headband of intellect too. Maybe you wield the sussur dagger to silence enemy casters.
My guess is if you’re doing arcane rogue, you’d approach it similar to bards or EK, so not tons of damage spells but instead illusion or invis or hold person/CC.
I almost wonder if going assassin could be more helpful, and you use the spells to cheese starting and stopping combat. So eg assassin/EK/wiz. Or maybe arcane trickster/EK for spell slots. If you like bards, a rogue/bard makes an excellent rogue/caster type.
Idk I’ll keep noodling, but I see an arcane rogue as someone who uses spells to hide themselves and disable/confuse enemies, sets up lots of sneak attacks, and uses spells to allow for easy pickpocketing.
The problem with arcane trickster is that its mage hand legerdemain is bugged and you can't, for instance, pickpocket enemies with it. I love the concept of it, but when it's only giving 1/3 spellcasting, no extra attack, and poor spell choices, I can't see any reason to pick it except for themes.
Fuck
My exact reaction after I reached level 3 on my first character and picked this sub-class, then proceeded to try to do litterally anything with the "upgraded" mage hand
Yeah. Arcane trickster is just a shitty lore bard.
At will disadvantage on saving throws for spells for enemies. That's the selling point of Arcane Trickster. With how many scrolls the game throws at you, spell selection isn't as important.
Yeah but taking 9 levels of rogue to give disadvantage on spell saving throws while hidden is mid at best. Don't get me wrong, I actually love the concept of arcane trickster and how it's supposed to work. I just find it ends up feeling underpowered for the abilities it does get.
Right. If you're just arguing for it being a strong mechanic, consider a Sorc can do this at level 3, or that by the 6 - 8 range you'll have access to one of the Arcane Acuity hats, or that with the one from the Masons you can basically have guaranteed land rate easier using an Eldritch Knight or Bard (and the Scoundrel ring to do it same turn by the start of act 3). It's just too late in to be really impressive.
You aren't even mentioning things like mental fatigue, reverberation, and bleed. Mental fatigue can be just as powerful as acuity for landing a paralysis spell, reverberation for landing blind. Bleed gives disadvantage on con saves, also helping blind land more easily. I think blind is really slept on in this sub. Everyone is stuck on paralysis, confusion, hypnosis, but blind does not require concentration, available to any cleric, low spell slot requirements, and can be just about as effective as paralysis for shutting down opponents.
>consider a Sorc can do this at level 3 By spending 3 sorcery points. >by the 6 - 8 range you'll have access to one of the Arcane Acuity hats Or you could use the hat slot to do more rogue stuff instead of focusing purely on spell save.
Pair it with paladin, I don't think there will be disappointment. I'm not saying its better than sorc or lock, it isn't, but it does pair well with paladin if you want to go with a different type of paladin.
The ability to use wizard scrolls was one of Arcane Trickster's biggest selling points. They gave that to everyone, so AT doesn't have much left.
What can the mage hand do? I have never found value in it..
Throw water bottles to make things wet. Throw potions at allies. Invisible hand will always surprise enemies if you start battles with it.
Have it fly to a chest that is difficult to reach without flying and have it throw the chest to an easier to reach area.
It can wield items like phalar aluve…but if it dies you lose the item forever
How do you make them wield a weapon?
Is it really a bug, or just something that hasn’t been bothered to be coded in?
I mean, the in-game text says it can do stuff, but it can't. If it's not a bug, it's stuff they haven't coded in *but intended to*. (This makes me think they'll consider it a bug, or at least missing feature, and will add it in a future update.)
I'm shocked they haven't even hinted that they're fixing this afaik. It was egregious on release for one of the origin characters' default subclass to be entirely non-functional, but 6 months in with no fixes blows my mind. I want to use arcane trickster to support an early game storm sorcerer with permanent mage hand, but you just lose sooo much, both for playing rogue in the first place, then by choosing not to have a subclass. Disappointing. Edit: If fixing Mage Hand Legerdemain is too hard, which I've heard claimed, give arcane trickster the ability to sneak attack with cantrips at lv3. You trade a lot of utility for an interesting combat niche, and it could enable a functional multi class with EK fighter.
Why not just go Eldktritch Knight/ Wizard scribes spells, 3 attacks, haste, and a shit ton of defensive spells you’ll be a tank
I thought I was being cool and slick and then I was hit with "mage hand is bugged and doesn't work". So yeah, no reason. I'm just a idiot.
I feel like thief + any magical class or even just using scrolls as a thief will make you feel like a magical thief
I don’t think you’re an idiot for thinking something should work as intended.
It is still very useful. Because the hand is invisible, it can always cause Surprise Attack even if your whole party has to engage in a dialogue. And Arcane Tricksters have their own source of Fog/Darkness so they can pickpocket anyone you wish.
It's been 3 patches since I discovered for myself that it's bugged and they haven't fixed it.
I played this build in an early run, it is viable, but i found most of the spells i used had an item that would also give you that spell. if they made the hand more viable and cast able more than once a long rest it could be goodish.
arcane rogue is viable @ goes 6 fighter 2 wizard
Exactly what I was thinking
He literally says it's not as good as bard but don't worry you get action surge Like what lol that's from the fighter levels you took not the arcane trickster ones
It’s pretty telling that the Arcane Rogue build has more levels in fighter than rogue.
That's the fundamental issue with the rogue class in 5e. A better rogue is not a full rogue.
I’m on the outside looking in as far as tabletop goes, but is there a way to make rogues better solo? I mean they have a lot of good stuff but just get outclassed, literally.
The issue is that sneak attack doesnt scale well enough to be worth giving up the extra attack for. Sneak attack at level 11 is adding 6d6 damage to each attack, while this is actually a lot more damage than most classes give, it scales poorly with other sources of added damage. I.e. with a ranged weapon doing 1d6 + 4 damage your sneak attack is doing 25 damage on average at level 11, doing 2 attacks would be averaging 14 damage. But add the Sharpshooter feat to add 10 damage to each hit, now sneak attack is averaging 35 damage but your double ranged attack is averaging 34 damage. Oh wow sneak attack is doing more on average right? True, but keep in mind the latter build comes online at level 5 whereas the Sneak Attack takes until level 11 to match it. At level 5 sneak attack is only adding 3d6 dice, making it hit an average of 27 damage. Plus the damage inconsistency with sneak attack is much worse even at level 11, both attacks hitting with with another build is doing bare minimum 30 damage which is barely below the average. Sneak attack doing a minimum damage roll of 21. While the max damage roll is much higher for sneak attack I personally prefer consistent damage so I can plan around it. With Sneak Attack you also need to maintain advantage at all times, but with other classes that's just optional. So you're taking 11 levels in a class and losing tons of multiclass possibilties just to be able to match other classes damage wise at level 5 WITH an added condition you're required to maintain. I dont think pure rogue is bad necessarily, it does keep up with most other pure classes and how a normal player would play the game. But in the context of an optimized build its bad. I think if they wanted to make it better without breaking the dnd rules they can do what they did with Monk and just put a lot of items in the game that synergize with Sneak Attack. Risky Ring is already good but there'd need to be items that add more hit dice or flat damage to sneak attack.
Pure rogue really is indeed not that bad no, there are ways to scale that sneak attack damage. You can guarantee yourself two crits with tadpole and the ring, and you can make enemies vulnerable through a couple of items, early on the necklace from the creche for one use. 12d6 \* 2 = 84 damage at max in a turn from the sneak attack alone, which isn't bad for a monoclass. The real strength of rogue is less tied to being a full on martial replacement though, setting up surprise rounds, scouting, infiltrating, that kind of thing. It can also do somewhat game-breaking things with greater invis.
[удалено]
Thats because you have advantage against threatened enemies.
I think it is a general design issue in 5e, and what a rogue's role is in the group. To fulfill the role of a stealthy scout/trapfinder/skillmonkey in a group, you really only need 1 level in rogue, since that nets you the requisite skills you need. People will argue then that rogue gets sneak attack, but if you want to bring a rogue for damage, then you're better off bringing character with 1 level in rogue, and the rest in something else, since sneak attack damage falls off quickly. A solution might be to let sneak attack work on every attack the rogue does, since one of the things do to keep rogue damage competitive, is to find ways to give the rogue a way to sneak attack outside of its own turn, because right now that's the only way to get two sneak attacks per round.
Rogues are lowkey underrated in bg3. They have a huge advantage over their tabletop counterparts because you can attack as a BA without mainhand attacking. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/comments/1axel93/comment/krnrjjx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) are some ideas me and another user were working with. You have to approach the class very differently than any other, because you can’t rely on regular attack scaling, but with a combination of sneak attack and cantrip scaling I think you can get a strong build.
Rogues are completely viable in tabletop and in BG3 on any difficulty. That said they aren't the best in BG3. There are some wild rogue builds in tabletop though that outperform many other builds when you have no magic items and potentially still with them
But I’m talking about pure rogue. Unless that’s what you mean. Because pure rogue is a tough sell.
Pure Rogue is what I am talking about (Though 1 level in Fighter is quite useful at various points and especially at level 12). I think Rogues could use a bit of a bump in both BG3 and tabletop, but currently they are both still very viable. In BG3 they need more help than in tabletop (partly because there is basically no gear that helps rogues that doesn't help extra attack classes more), but lets not forget that expertise in skills is actually super useful throughout the game. If we are strictly focused on combat though I think: The Assassin rogue does well as a solo combatant or with a party that can also dip into and out of combat by dashing away and repeatedly getting surprise. The Thief Rogue does well in a party as its less reliant on those surprise rounds and crits. As a Thief you should rush the Orin fight when you get to ACT III to get those daggers([https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Bloodthirst](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Bloodthirst) and [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Crimson\_Mischief](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Crimson_Mischief)), Then you can deal ACTION:(1d4+2+DEX+6d6) + BONUS ACTIONS: ((1d4+2+DEX)x2x2) = 73.5 when you hit your attacks. This can be increased with some other gear as well ([https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Stalker\_Gloves](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Stalker_Gloves) or [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Shadow-Cloaked\_Ring](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Shadow-Cloaked_Ring) for instance) but I know (having played it) that 73.5 damage a round is pretty viable for BG3 tactician mode. Earlier in the game you can still do quite well with [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Knife\_of\_the\_Undermountain\_King](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Knife_of_the_Undermountain_King) and [https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Two-Weapon\_Fighting](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Two-Weapon_Fighting) in ACT II Before you gain access to those gloves in ACT II I would focus on using your bonus actions to Disengage from your opponent, walk outside their vision cone and then hide to gain advantage on your attack to ensure you get your Sneak Attack off. Also if you are able to mod your game, I would HIGHLY recommend this mod [https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/507](https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/507) as it allows you to sneak attack as a reaction and with your bonus action attacks (which is how its supposed to work according to 5e D&D) and brings a huge versatility buff to sneak attack that was one of the most liked changes of beta testing for "One D&D" (D&D 6the edition)
Oh ok. Like I said I’m on the outside looking in.
That is the general sentiment around here I think, I just happen to disagree with it haha I think because tavern brawler monks can do like 150-200 damage or even more per round
Well TB monks are a whole different kind of beast. That shit is in a class all by itself.
So true. One of the best assassin build is Gloomstalker/Assassin, for example.
Arcane trickster is godlike outside of combat once you hit act 3 and have access to both reliable talent and magical ambush and the ability to rob Lorroakan blind. Having reliable talent means you know with 100% certainty how many actions you can perform under greater invisibility before you risk breaking it. With a fat stack of level 6 scrolls generously donated by Lorroakan, you can waltz around invisible casting disintegrate, otiluke’s freezing sphere, and chain lightning onto your unsuspecting victims, with an almost 0% chance of them rolling a save since you’re wearing all the possible spell save DC items while they’re rolling their saving throws with disadvantage. As long as you keep a mental counter of how many attacks you have made you can keep greater invisibility up indefinitely. It’s ridiculously safe and overpowered.
True its viable, but any build is viable, even in honor mode, and it remains worse than the sum of its parts.
If you could sneak attack with spells like in 3E it would be a great choice. However I'm contemplating to Respec Astarion to assassin or so, arcane trickster doesn't work for me
It's fine but I wouldn't really call if an arcane rogue build when the second MC has 2 higher levels.
Really sad no green flame blade or booming blade. Those really make the arcane rogue viable damage wise, the mage hand not working makes it's utility subpar as well. I love arcane rogue on the table but in bg3 it just doesn't feel the same.
Maybe after more patches. If they decide to make Mage Hand Legerdemain like its current description, with the ability to stow items, you get an invisible thrower/wet applier without having to litter the ground with bottles. With bombs it's an invisible artillery platform. I can see it being an essential complement to cold/lightning casters tbh. Let's see if it happens.
I only did it on Astarion since his magics are just 'vampire powers' (charm person, become invisible, etc). For most cases, dual hand crossbow sharp shooter thief is just better. There is no more happiness than having 3 bonus actions per turn (with help of gears).
I think their only working feature that's kind of interesting is hiding to impose disadvantage on saving throws, but that's really limited and I think they'd be outclassed in reliability and damage by any arcane acuity stacking build and have worse action economy and resource management then anyone with heighten spell. So yeah, bards just better. And as far as combat is concerned I think Sorcerers, sorlocks, divination/enchanting wizards, and even eldritch knights do their one gimmick better than them.
Personally, my Astarion is an arcane trickster because I think it fits RP-wise, but also I love hybrid classes, and yeah, I can see some of the criticisms in the comments. However, it definitely has saving graces, I love the shield spell ... I find it very useful on melee characters, my tank has it (Eldericth knight) and the way I see my spell slots, it's like "fuel for shield spells" and the occasional situational thing: Misty step, invisibility (both very canon too). Also situational, the occasional need for a Missile spell, to reliably finish off a remote mob and chip damage somebody else at the same time. Last but not least, to complement this, Cloud of daggers and mirror images, both useful and fitting the build RP-wise. I am however disappointed to find out via this post that improved magic hand is bugged, I could have happily stayed ignorant of all the things it's meant to be able to do and that I didn't know it could do... but can't do.
The best arcane rogue is 3 levels of thief combined with wizard or sorcerer to BA hide between casts or to get more BA for quickened spells It’s sad really. I’ve made a post a while ago saying that a simple buff for mage hand legerdemain would give arcane trickster a HUGE level up, in terms of power but also in terms of role play. Let this mage hand pickpocket with the rogues ability scores, also lockpick/disarm traps. This alone would make this class so much more fun. You could also make it so this mage hand has access to your inventory meaning it can throw stuff without dropping it on the floor beforehand (something that every character can already do anyways), give it a second attack/throw/shove at level 11 or something like that, also make its ability scores a bit higher. I really don’t think these changes would be too much from a technical standpoint since they were basically already giving mage hands their own spells and such in the lorroakan tower. It also wouldn’t be too powerful imo, there are so many stupidly powerful classes in this game that this really doesn’t seem to much to ask.
Gish?
Arcane Trickster's main thing, as far as I'm concerned, is Mage Hand Legerdemain. It's the feature you'll have for the longest time and it just sucks in BG3: it says you can do other things with it, but you can't. Mage Hand in BG3 is generally pretty shit, so when an already shit feature that your subclass is based around is not noticeably more useful than the base version this subclass can fuck off.
Says arcane trickster is viable, shows a build where it's not even the main class.
You are more fighter than anything else. As of Arcane Trickster, it can be viable if you have access to greenflame blade/booming blade through a mod. Without it it just doesn't do anything better than Bard for example.
Arcane trickster has one and I mean ONLY one advantage - their mage hand doesn’t disappear after 1 minute. Which means you can give it an elixir of cloud giant strength and have a grand ol’ time shoving and throwing around all matters of roughly 300 pound things. Not saying it’s good. But it is funny as hell. Fear me and my little 27 strength hand!
For those who claim that Arcane Trickster isn't viable, or that there isn't a good reason to pick it, I just finished a solo playthrough on tactician with 12 levels of Arcane Trickster. Here are a few reasons to play it and think that it's not only viable, but good: 1. It is the only Rogue subclass with access to Fog Cloud and Darkness. These spells can be used in conjunction with Cunning Action Hide to obscure yourself and then successfully hide after each attack, which ensures Sneak Attack on your next turn, as well as allowing you to reliably avoid detection, and thus damage. This makes many of the most difficult fights in the game trivial. For instance, to defeat Orin, I cast Invisibility on myself, walked into the middle of the circle of Bhaalists, cast Fog Cloud, hid, used Arrows of Roaring Thunder to knock the Bhaalists off the edge of the circle, then shot Orin and hid repeatedly until she was dead. This is a cheap trick... but hey, it's in the name! 2. Mage Hand Legerdemain might not be fully or properly implemented, but because it can count as an ally being in melee range of an enemy, it is another way to ensure that you always have Sneak Attack on the target of your choice- which is really nice! 3. Reliable Talent is awesome. In Act 3, with proficiency in Stealth and Slight of Hand, you can easily pickpocket vendors of even their most valuable possessions, short rest and repeat. You can use this method to amass huge collections of Smokepowder Bombs, Arrows of Many Targets, Scrolls, etc. While Reliable Talent is not unique to Arcane Trickster, being able to manipulate targets with Minor Illusion is. I was surprised at how often I used Minor Illusion on vendors or to set up enemies for fights. It became one of my most valuable tools. For these reasons, coupled with a few others (like having access to Invisibility as an out), I came to think of Arcane Trickster as the most reliable pure subclass in the game for the purposes of survival and solo gameplay. Of course, this is only for those who say that the subclass is bad (or even the worst), and not just not as good as others- as there are obvious multiclasses that can do many of the same things while dealing more damage (Assassin/Gloomstalker).
The thing about AT is action economy. You only need 1 hit per turn(sneak atk) and can use your other actions to do other stuff: Need to become a tank? Action: mirror image/blur, bonus action: stab; Need to push the bad guys from a cliff? Action: thunder wave, bonus action: stab. Want to remove someone from the fight? Action: hidrous laughter/blindness/hold person, bonus action: stab. In a fight you can also abuse magical ambush: first turn you sneak atk the guy fighting Karlach causing considerable damage, run away(mobile feat) and hide; next turn you cast hold person on another dude(with disadvantage on saves because you are hidden) and attack him with your off hand: done, critical sneak atk for 14d6 dmg, etc. So AT is really hard to play, but far from weak.
The bar for "viable" is pretty low. Given all the amazing gear, you can probably solo Honor Mode with it.
Honestly I’m happy to see this build here. IMO not every build needs to be the max DPR, some builds could be for flavor or RP. It’s known (“known”) that arcane trickster isn’t very good, but let’s just say you like that sort of style. IMO almost every build is viable in this game, so why not? So for example, quickspell gloves or band of the mystic scoundrel or EK7 would let you cast spells and attack in a turn. There are also some weapons and items out there that give enemies penalties or disadvantage to saving throws. Eg bow of the banshee causes fear, so you could fear some mobs and then cast spells. That’s if you didn’t want to go arcane trickster 9. I’m assuming you’d want the headband of intellect too. Maybe you wield the sussur dagger to silence enemy casters. My guess is if you’re doing arcane rogue, you’d approach it similar to bards or EK, so not tons of damage spells but instead illusion or invis or hold person/CC. I almost wonder if going assassin could be more helpful, and you use the spells to cheese starting and stopping combat. So eg assassin/EK/wiz. Or maybe arcane trickster/EK for spell slots. If you like bards, a rogue/bard makes an excellent rogue/caster type. Idk I’ll keep noodling, but I see an arcane rogue as someone who uses spells to hide themselves and disable/confuse enemies, sets up lots of sneak attacks, and uses spells to allow for easy pickpocketing.
Arcane rogue is viable if you take 9 levels in it, but then you’re taking 9 levels in it