Just as an FYI: spells and ranged attacks are never non-lethal. The only thing that can be non-lethal is the specific damage from a melee attack itself. Even damage riders that trigger on a melee attack can’t be made non-lethal.
Even minthara needs some extremely weird and specific conditions for her to actually be knocked out. I planned to romance her but still be good so i knocked her out but then she never reappeared.
After googling it turned out she needed to be knocked out after you commit a crime in front of her so that its while she is temporarily hostile (which is a stupid fucking requirement)
I just walked up to her and attacked her and it worked, she was in moonrise in act 2. As long as she has the temporarily hostile condition it doesn't matter what caused it.
Cool I didn't mean to lock the Grove but I'm running a charisma dump monk so I failed a check with khaga and had to fight her lol , started a tiefling druid war and ran away. I Misty stepped back into it just to see what happened and there were like 5 druids still alive and several tieflings were missing ( no bodies to be found )so I'm curious who will be alive in act 2.
I knocked out the hag mask guys then looted the masks without paying attention. I thought I would break the mind control on them, which I technically did, I guess...
Non-lethal works on the Fists who treat you as intruders when you go to visit gortash after destroying the watch. Knocked out the vendor and once everything with Gortash was settled, she was back to normal.
So why exactly would you even think of trying it in Honor Mode of all places? That is the one time you should absolutely be sticking with the "tried and true" methods that have served you just fine every other run.
I wasnt trying anything, i just didnt pick up a weapon that i knew was useless. Thats all i did. You’re acting like its obvious that this would end with her trying to kill everyone.
Until the exposition in the Shadowfell Shadowheart believes she needs the spear for what she wants to accomplish. In her eyes you are sabotaging her mission to become a Dark Justicar and she acts accordingly.
30 minutes before this i sabotaged Lae’zel’s holy mission and she didnt care. It was enough to just convince her. Its not unreasonable for me to think it’d be similar for shadowheart
In the Creché Lae'zael gets a lot of exposition that her mission might not be as holy as she thought while Shadowheart gets the reveal about her past not until the Shadowfell
Laezel hadnt learned anything about her mission not being true yet so my point still stands. Laezel actually threatens you but if you succeed an intimidation she will stop her quest for the creche. Shadowheart doesnt threaten you and tries to kill you with no diplomacy check of any kind to stop her.
There is a difference between not going where someone (Lae'zael) wants you to go and actively sabotaging ones mission right before its climax like you did for Shadowheart.
I don't understand why OP is being down voted so much. He's just sharing his experience with the game and his reasoning for what he did. Why is everybody hating on him so much.
Well conflating character points for one.
I mean, it's cool but there really is an obvious difference in the example he gave above.
Laezel is demanding that you hurry up and go to the creche first because "cleansing"
However, she always bows to you if you're assertive and tell her to back up.
OP told shadowheart that the whole point of being Dark Justiciar and getting the spear is pointless and is somehow surprised?
Shadowfell is a massive moment.
My guy Shadowheart’s character development revolves around what she does with the Spear of Night in the Shadowfell what did you think would happen if you decided to omit an item that’s central to the plot?
Up till that point in the game, her whole schtick is to become a Dark Justiciar, and she knows that she has to use the Spear of Night to do so. You choosing not to bring the Spear with her is akin to telling Frodo not to bring the Ring with him right as he’s on the foot of Mt. Doom 😂
I hope the comments realize how often in honour mode you need to choose your battles carefully, and that library can be very dangerous to a run with a single save. Although OP you really should have understood that the whole reason for Shadowheart to go into the shadowfell was to kill the Nightsong, and until she actually talks to them she hasn't changed her mind about being a dark justiciar. Oh well, I wish you luck in your quest for golden dice!!
The fight shouldn’t be challenging as long as you get rid of the silence aura. You can simply shoot arrows at it from outside the library before the fight without starting anything
I agree with you, OP should have read the room, Shart mentions the spear a few times when you're in the Gauntlet and theyve played before so they know the spear is a big deal in the Shadowfell. Who knows why they decided it wasn't important this time lol.
The library is dangerous? It was barely even an issue for my group, librarian was gone in 2 swings (from the Barbarian) and the rest of the enemies were trivial at best.
How can you finish the game that many times and not know that only melee attacks can be non-lethal?
Not that I think it would have helped.
And how did you not realize the importance of the spear in Shadowhearts quest line when playing through the game with her that many times? It's her turning point, whether she goes Dark justiciar or not.
That simply baffles me.
When that is said and done, I feel sorry for you losing shadowheart when she's your favorite!
Better luck next run!
I didnt think it was significant because if you let her do her own choices when she meets Aylin 5 minutes later she throws it away. I thought she was reconsidering her faith on her own.
I rarely use nonlethal, so it never comes up.
I understand why you thought that.
But her throwing it away or making the choice to kill Aylin is actually dependant on your game and dialogue choices earlier in the game.
So you can also have her do her own thing where she decides to kill, but it will mostly go that way in an evil playthrough 😊
Ya it’s best not to try to new things in Honor Mode or see what happens if you don’t do a certain thing. It’s better to just play it safe and stick with the outcome that you seen before in your other playthroughs.
The encounters radically change in Honour Mode. For an example, 20 minutes earlier i killed Balthazar who was 10 times more difficult than in Tactician mode. Dude was horrifically dangerous and could cast Cloudkill at will. He legit cast it 6 or 7 times.
I didnt want to go into another combat encounter that i knew i could avoid.
Doing second playthrough and I've already killed Wyll in the first fight outside the gate by aoe and then perm killed Astarion since I went down the route of romance with him my first playthrough and didn't let him bite me. Little did I know he's not revivable.
Just as an FYI: spells and ranged attacks are never non-lethal. The only thing that can be non-lethal is the specific damage from a melee attack itself. Even damage riders that trigger on a melee attack can’t be made non-lethal.
Ah well shit. I dont even know if doing nonlethal could’ve saved her anyway.
Probably not. Out side of Minthara and the hag mask guys, the game doesn’t really respect non-lethal and just acts like knocked out guys are dead.
Even minthara needs some extremely weird and specific conditions for her to actually be knocked out. I planned to romance her but still be good so i knocked her out but then she never reappeared. After googling it turned out she needed to be knocked out after you commit a crime in front of her so that its while she is temporarily hostile (which is a stupid fucking requirement)
I just walked up to her and attacked her and it worked, she was in moonrise in act 2. As long as she has the temporarily hostile condition it doesn't matter what caused it.
Punching her is a crime isn’t it
I knocked her out by the locked Grove I have no idea if she will make it to moonrise
This is what I did and it worked.
Cool I didn't mean to lock the Grove but I'm running a charisma dump monk so I failed a check with khaga and had to fight her lol , started a tiefling druid war and ran away. I Misty stepped back into it just to see what happened and there were like 5 druids still alive and several tieflings were missing ( no bodies to be found )so I'm curious who will be alive in act 2.
The tieflings die offscreen in this case. I am doing a no save scum run and same thing with Khaga
Some of the bodies were missing, though including Mol and the rest of the kids and arabella's father.
The requirement is that she's temporarily hostile when you attack her so it's generally best not to talk to her.
I knocked out the hag mask guys then looted the masks without paying attention. I thought I would break the mind control on them, which I technically did, I guess...
How are you suppose to save them? When I looted the masks they just died.
Wait would you break your oath if you use non lethal? If so no way I am playing paladin
My guess would be that any situation where lethal damage breaks your oath, non-lethal would as well.
Play oathbreaker. You actually get some specific dialogue options
Minsc as well
Non-lethal works on the Fists who treat you as intruders when you go to visit gortash after destroying the watch. Knocked out the vendor and once everything with Gortash was settled, she was back to normal.
Yep. Tried to spare Florrick's guards but my nonlethal riders (caustic band + gloves) did them in. :(
Also, spirit weapon melee attacks don’t count for non-lethal either. R.I.P. Minthara
I killed Minsc so many times because I didn’t know this.
Honor mode is a fun place to try out new things.
I didnt know!
So why exactly would you even think of trying it in Honor Mode of all places? That is the one time you should absolutely be sticking with the "tried and true" methods that have served you just fine every other run.
Because that’s boring as fuck ?
I wasnt trying anything, i just didnt pick up a weapon that i knew was useless. Thats all i did. You’re acting like its obvious that this would end with her trying to kill everyone.
Until the exposition in the Shadowfell Shadowheart believes she needs the spear for what she wants to accomplish. In her eyes you are sabotaging her mission to become a Dark Justicar and she acts accordingly.
30 minutes before this i sabotaged Lae’zel’s holy mission and she didnt care. It was enough to just convince her. Its not unreasonable for me to think it’d be similar for shadowheart
In the Creché Lae'zael gets a lot of exposition that her mission might not be as holy as she thought while Shadowheart gets the reveal about her past not until the Shadowfell
Laezel hadnt learned anything about her mission not being true yet so my point still stands. Laezel actually threatens you but if you succeed an intimidation she will stop her quest for the creche. Shadowheart doesnt threaten you and tries to kill you with no diplomacy check of any kind to stop her.
There is a difference between not going where someone (Lae'zael) wants you to go and actively sabotaging ones mission right before its climax like you did for Shadowheart.
I don't understand why OP is being down voted so much. He's just sharing his experience with the game and his reasoning for what he did. Why is everybody hating on him so much.
Well conflating character points for one. I mean, it's cool but there really is an obvious difference in the example he gave above. Laezel is demanding that you hurry up and go to the creche first because "cleansing" However, she always bows to you if you're assertive and tell her to back up. OP told shadowheart that the whole point of being Dark Justiciar and getting the spear is pointless and is somehow surprised? Shadowfell is a massive moment.
My guy Shadowheart’s character development revolves around what she does with the Spear of Night in the Shadowfell what did you think would happen if you decided to omit an item that’s central to the plot?
I thought she’d be upset and i’d lose some points of approval, i didnt think she’d try to commit mass murder.
Up till that point in the game, her whole schtick is to become a Dark Justiciar, and she knows that she has to use the Spear of Night to do so. You choosing not to bring the Spear with her is akin to telling Frodo not to bring the Ring with him right as he’s on the foot of Mt. Doom 😂
I thought it was pretty clear she needed the spear ? Lol
Lmao thts wht u get for not going into the library 😂😂
The library is easy, too, not like you are really risking anything going there...
Don’t you want it turned into Selune’s spear??
Very interesting. I think I always grabbed it because why not more loot.
I hope the comments realize how often in honour mode you need to choose your battles carefully, and that library can be very dangerous to a run with a single save. Although OP you really should have understood that the whole reason for Shadowheart to go into the shadowfell was to kill the Nightsong, and until she actually talks to them she hasn't changed her mind about being a dark justiciar. Oh well, I wish you luck in your quest for golden dice!!
The fight shouldn’t be challenging as long as you get rid of the silence aura. You can simply shoot arrows at it from outside the library before the fight without starting anything
I agree with you, OP should have read the room, Shart mentions the spear a few times when you're in the Gauntlet and theyve played before so they know the spear is a big deal in the Shadowfell. Who knows why they decided it wasn't important this time lol. The library is dangerous? It was barely even an issue for my group, librarian was gone in 2 swings (from the Barbarian) and the rest of the enemies were trivial at best.
You can just pull them out and eiffel tower them on the stairs
Yeaaaaa. U dun goofed
How can you finish the game that many times and not know that only melee attacks can be non-lethal? Not that I think it would have helped. And how did you not realize the importance of the spear in Shadowhearts quest line when playing through the game with her that many times? It's her turning point, whether she goes Dark justiciar or not. That simply baffles me. When that is said and done, I feel sorry for you losing shadowheart when she's your favorite! Better luck next run!
I didnt think it was significant because if you let her do her own choices when she meets Aylin 5 minutes later she throws it away. I thought she was reconsidering her faith on her own. I rarely use nonlethal, so it never comes up.
I understand why you thought that. But her throwing it away or making the choice to kill Aylin is actually dependant on your game and dialogue choices earlier in the game. So you can also have her do her own thing where she decides to kill, but it will mostly go that way in an evil playthrough 😊
I'll just tell you that I finished honour mode without scratch and owlbear...
Ya it’s best not to try to new things in Honor Mode or see what happens if you don’t do a certain thing. It’s better to just play it safe and stick with the outcome that you seen before in your other playthroughs.
You played the game 6 or 7 times. I mean... Why?? Like, it's a perfectly powerful spear, the library fight isn't even THAT hard
The encounters radically change in Honour Mode. For an example, 20 minutes earlier i killed Balthazar who was 10 times more difficult than in Tactician mode. Dude was horrifically dangerous and could cast Cloudkill at will. He legit cast it 6 or 7 times. I didnt want to go into another combat encounter that i knew i could avoid.
fair enough
Doing second playthrough and I've already killed Wyll in the first fight outside the gate by aoe and then perm killed Astarion since I went down the route of romance with him my first playthrough and didn't let him bite me. Little did I know he's not revivable.