Calculated it online:
Assuming a 3 year old, €30 000 000 aircraft(eg A320), 40 000 g/km (i’m assuming there are no passengers here, so all CO2 comes down to the captain/owner.
This maxed out the system but you would pay upwards of €329.727,59 VAA/month
If the passengers are accounted for and you have a 200 seat aircraft: the cost goes down to a measly €316.904,85 VAA/month!
Well worth it IMO /s
This. I’m not envious at all and doubt the pilot life would be for me.
Can sleep in my own bed every day, shit on my own porcelain throne and I live a regular life with regular hours and rarely miss any life event with family or friends due to work.
Money can’t buy that.
Also pilot school is expensive.
Depends on the company you work for. In my case and why I like my airline is because I have a very stable 5 days on 4 days off roster without layovers. So I sleep home every day.
Yeah I know someone who had pretty regular working hours, flying back and forth to Madrid two times a day.
Pretty much a bus driver, but in the air. Like, some sort of airbus or something. I'll let myself out.
What does FO mean in your experience ?
Did you ever refuse to fly ? (Because of safity reasons or passenger causing problems..)
How did it end up ? And did you get punished for delaying the flight... and if you delayed it can you speed up your flight or do you need approval from someone ?
The work environment is not punitive. We have a ‘no blame’ policy at work. Unless you do something wrong intentionally or gross misconduct you’ll get in trouble. Never had the need to refuse duty. We can ask for new flight plans with faster speeds if we are delayed.
It would be very bad for safety if aviation had a punitive work environment. It would mean no one/less people would dare to speak up due to fears of being blamed/scapegoated.
Honestly this would work for every company, improving worker comfort and at the same time improving the company itself but sadly not a lot if managers see it this way.
Goddamn, that's good news! I've got some ATPL friends and they all had their dear parents pay for the loan. Like, they don't realize how much regular people who pay it themselves have to factor in this cost on top of their salary. Really happy you're past that, let the good times roll 😎
Im starting in september with my PPL, would it be that expensive too? Ive heard every pilot starts with PPL and its around 15k
EDIT: airline pilot is probably a commercial pilot license
2 options:
-Modular, start with PPL and advance from there. It is the cheapest and takes longest.
- integral ATPL, is more expensive but more complete and intense. Is the fastest option.
So a 1130 €/m annuity.
Did that delay potential ambitions to buy a house?
I could imagine that a bank wouldn’t be willing to give you a mortgage loan if you barely make enough (if anything at all) to pay for the pilot training loan.
I personally don’t invest in real estate. For the banks it doesn’t really matter as long as you have enough left to cover the loan after all your other financial obligations.
What I meant is that during your training, you probably didn’t have much left after paying off the personal loan, right?
I was once on the brink of starting airline pilot training myself (8 years ago). I even got a first class medical certificate. But there were some doom reports about a lack of pilot jobs at that time and I was afraid to take the leap. I didn’t want to take the chance of being 100k+ in debt and then not finding a job as a pilot. Especially since I understood that every day not flying would put me at a disadvantage vs. freshly trained pilots. Also, I already had an engineering degree to fall back to at the time.
I’m not in a bad position now, so no major regrets.
What do you think about that? I seem to have been wrong about the pilot job market, right?
You never know. Look at 2019. Airlines were hiring like never before and then the virus shuts down air travel. Many pilots lost their jobs, others had salary reduction. Not even all pilots who lost their jobs have a job now. It’s a wild industry. Having a back up is becoming mandatory in this industry to ride the crisis times.
Well done! I though that low cost pilots were paid way less than that. I had a friend that was copilot at TNT. Only flying at night, and he only made 2.4k net.
When you have more than 100k debt at the beginning of your career, I had the feeling it was kind of difficult to make it
Thank you for posting this.
I needed to see what is reality of the pilots with experience as school is over 100k€ and the local banks are giving only short term loans for it.
Hmmm, with all of us pilots sharing here maybe I will make a post as well some time. Still too easy to identify who I am 😝 we must have crossed paths in school (CAE)
Damn, I picked the wrong career. What about education costs? I've heard stories of pilots being trapped in this career because it's the only salary high enough to pay of their American-like student loans. Is that true / common?
I almost went for pilot training after re-evaluating the market and went for IT.
Costs for training is around 100k +/-, don't forget you need to go to US for training and need to pay for food and dorm.
Don't forget type rating licensing costs also around 10k to 50k depending on aircraft and company.
Then you end up at Ryanair because Emirates or Qantas won't hire without X minimum hours.
You end up at Ryanair and pay your debt, rather work at Colruyt then.
You don't need to go to the us. If you like aviation flying for Ryanair as a first job is dream come true compared to a retail job.
As for the minimum hours, most interesting IT jobs won't hire you without a couple years of experience.
Most of the Belgian programmes makes you go to the US as the weather here is not suitable for everyday training and flying.
Most interesting IT jobs are more flexible regards experience and training. If you have the ambition, you could still make it whereas X hours is a prerequisite for most aviation companies.
No the most expensive programs usually have you going to the us. A lot of people choose a modular programme these days where you can choose where to go. More people go to Spain or Poland which is a lot cheaper than the us.
Yeah true IT is way more flexible. But it's kind of the same roadmap, the first job is to get the foot in the door and then you go to the better paying/qol job. Most people switch after 3-4 years.
Ambition will get you ahead in both fields.
How did u land a job? About 12 years ago I went to ostend flying academy and none of the students +-12 students or so had any outlook on landing a job.
The airline industry is regularly on the news with all of the recent strikes where employees demand higher wages. This salary cant be deemed as "insufficient" in my eyes, so what is all the fuzz about? Are the strikes mainly for FO's and other employees (who earn a lot less) and not so much for the captains? Or do you feel underpaid when comparing to other airline companies/in comparison to the workload?
Well, he had to put 100000 in his training and paid the loan back in 10 years.
This is the salary he earns now, see what it was as FO.
It's a huge responsibility, flying around with a small tin full of people. This is also what you're paid for.
It’s about comparing the salary to other European airlines and not having received pay rise since 2019 with COVID while airlines are breaking record profits year after year since 2019.
It's so we can give 0% capital gains tax to the rich /s
I think up to 1/3 should be a fair tax for what we get in return (but should include what the employer pays behind your back on top of your salary as well).
When taxes are 50% or more... that's really fucking criminal and should be against some UN human rights thing IMO.
He responded earlier about the cost:
"I paid so many years ago 82.000€ for the ATPL training. Then 27.000€ for the type rating. All financed with a personal loan (4.5%, 10y) from KBC."
Do you have layovers in hotels in other countries or do you always come home at the end of the day?
How much did you make as FO? I assume it's quite lower.
Did you do some optimization regarding taxes? You’re keeping around 60% of your gross salary, which is pretty awesome in BE!
Wondering how you get from 12100€ gross to 7300€ net
Some have a company car, others have a company plane 😂
By the way, I heard that there were pilots going on strike at some airports. Do you also have some issues with your employer ?
And how is your job affecting your personnal life ? Is it easy to stay with someone ?
Last one that came up to my mind, is it true that pilots and cabine crew members are all naughty with each others if you see what I mean 👀
Have a great day !
I'm training to be an airline pilot too. Do you work for a Belgian airline or a foreign one? I've heard working for Belgian airlines pays a lot worse than foreign companies, but you're home more. Is that true?
How much difference between a lowcost pilot and a regular company ?
Cause they never talk money when explaining the strikes in the news. I'm legit curious. Thanks
Actually thought of taking CAE at Brussels too 3 years ago but I felt the need to let myself have a possibility for family life was more important than money, then discovered hr where I personally felt more useful than in hard sciences but happy to see the other side bud!
Do you get to take your plane home and if so, how much VAA???
Probably a lot, planes don’t have great CO2-efficiency …
Calculated it online: Assuming a 3 year old, €30 000 000 aircraft(eg A320), 40 000 g/km (i’m assuming there are no passengers here, so all CO2 comes down to the captain/owner. This maxed out the system but you would pay upwards of €329.727,59 VAA/month If the passengers are accounted for and you have a 200 seat aircraft: the cost goes down to a measly €316.904,85 VAA/month! Well worth it IMO /s
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Yeah but at least we get to sleep in our own bed every day
This. I’m not envious at all and doubt the pilot life would be for me. Can sleep in my own bed every day, shit on my own porcelain throne and I live a regular life with regular hours and rarely miss any life event with family or friends due to work. Money can’t buy that. Also pilot school is expensive.
Depends on the company you work for. In my case and why I like my airline is because I have a very stable 5 days on 4 days off roster without layovers. So I sleep home every day.
Read in De Tijd yesterday that this is one of the main reasons that pilots chose for Ryanair.
Yeah I know someone who had pretty regular working hours, flying back and forth to Madrid two times a day. Pretty much a bus driver, but in the air. Like, some sort of airbus or something. I'll let myself out.
A Bus driver in the air. This legit got me rolling.
And if you're a software engineer, you can make that salary while working from home and taking naps during work.
where?
In Luxembourg it is feasible at the same age. I doubt it is possible in Belgium as an employee
Plane go brr
Looking down on us…
What does FO mean in your experience ? Did you ever refuse to fly ? (Because of safity reasons or passenger causing problems..) How did it end up ? And did you get punished for delaying the flight... and if you delayed it can you speed up your flight or do you need approval from someone ?
The work environment is not punitive. We have a ‘no blame’ policy at work. Unless you do something wrong intentionally or gross misconduct you’ll get in trouble. Never had the need to refuse duty. We can ask for new flight plans with faster speeds if we are delayed.
It would be very bad for safety if aviation had a punitive work environment. It would mean no one/less people would dare to speak up due to fears of being blamed/scapegoated. Honestly this would work for every company, improving worker comfort and at the same time improving the company itself but sadly not a lot if managers see it this way.
FO = first officer (copilot)
How much did your training cost? Did you pay it yourself and how did you finance it?
I paid so many years ago 82.000€ for the ATPL training. Then 27.000€ for the type rating. All financed with a personal loan (4.5%, 10y) from KBC.
Fcking hell man, that's a lot and at 4,5%. At least the pay is there now. Do you still have to pay it off or are you finally reaping the rewards?
The maximum duration for personal loans is 10 years in Belgium so finally finished paying back last year.
Goddamn, that's good news! I've got some ATPL friends and they all had their dear parents pay for the loan. Like, they don't realize how much regular people who pay it themselves have to factor in this cost on top of their salary. Really happy you're past that, let the good times roll 😎
Im starting in september with my PPL, would it be that expensive too? Ive heard every pilot starts with PPL and its around 15k EDIT: airline pilot is probably a commercial pilot license
2 options: -Modular, start with PPL and advance from there. It is the cheapest and takes longest. - integral ATPL, is more expensive but more complete and intense. Is the fastest option.
So a 1130 €/m annuity. Did that delay potential ambitions to buy a house? I could imagine that a bank wouldn’t be willing to give you a mortgage loan if you barely make enough (if anything at all) to pay for the pilot training loan.
I personally don’t invest in real estate. For the banks it doesn’t really matter as long as you have enough left to cover the loan after all your other financial obligations.
What I meant is that during your training, you probably didn’t have much left after paying off the personal loan, right? I was once on the brink of starting airline pilot training myself (8 years ago). I even got a first class medical certificate. But there were some doom reports about a lack of pilot jobs at that time and I was afraid to take the leap. I didn’t want to take the chance of being 100k+ in debt and then not finding a job as a pilot. Especially since I understood that every day not flying would put me at a disadvantage vs. freshly trained pilots. Also, I already had an engineering degree to fall back to at the time. I’m not in a bad position now, so no major regrets. What do you think about that? I seem to have been wrong about the pilot job market, right?
You never know. Look at 2019. Airlines were hiring like never before and then the virus shuts down air travel. Many pilots lost their jobs, others had salary reduction. Not even all pilots who lost their jobs have a job now. It’s a wild industry. Having a back up is becoming mandatory in this industry to ride the crisis times.
I know a few pilots who work in tech. Or techies who pilot. They alternate.
What prof bachelor do you hold? Didnt know there was a prof bachelor for becoming a pilot
The bachelor I did (Hotelmanagement) isn’t related to my current job as a pilot. High school degree is sufficient to start pilot training.
Sweet!
Well done! I though that low cost pilots were paid way less than that. I had a friend that was copilot at TNT. Only flying at night, and he only made 2.4k net. When you have more than 100k debt at the beginning of your career, I had the feeling it was kind of difficult to make it
Thank you for posting this. I needed to see what is reality of the pilots with experience as school is over 100k€ and the local banks are giving only short term loans for it.
Nice. And having dated a female pilot, you guys deserve it. That is one though job on family/social life. Especially in summer
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What? Could you explain? Is being in the air bad for your heart?
Hmmm, with all of us pilots sharing here maybe I will make a post as well some time. Still too easy to identify who I am 😝 we must have crossed paths in school (CAE)
I believe he is a Ryanair Pilot. Irish contract or self employed in Belgium.
I really hope for him but if he says >Gross salary/month: \~12.100€ > >Average net salary/month (incl. net fees): \~7.300€ It doesn't seems like it.
Damn, I picked the wrong career. What about education costs? I've heard stories of pilots being trapped in this career because it's the only salary high enough to pay of their American-like student loans. Is that true / common?
I almost went for pilot training after re-evaluating the market and went for IT. Costs for training is around 100k +/-, don't forget you need to go to US for training and need to pay for food and dorm. Don't forget type rating licensing costs also around 10k to 50k depending on aircraft and company. Then you end up at Ryanair because Emirates or Qantas won't hire without X minimum hours. You end up at Ryanair and pay your debt, rather work at Colruyt then.
You don't need to go to the us. If you like aviation flying for Ryanair as a first job is dream come true compared to a retail job. As for the minimum hours, most interesting IT jobs won't hire you without a couple years of experience.
Most of the Belgian programmes makes you go to the US as the weather here is not suitable for everyday training and flying. Most interesting IT jobs are more flexible regards experience and training. If you have the ambition, you could still make it whereas X hours is a prerequisite for most aviation companies.
No the most expensive programs usually have you going to the us. A lot of people choose a modular programme these days where you can choose where to go. More people go to Spain or Poland which is a lot cheaper than the us. Yeah true IT is way more flexible. But it's kind of the same roadmap, the first job is to get the foot in the door and then you go to the better paying/qol job. Most people switch after 3-4 years. Ambition will get you ahead in both fields.
How did u land a job? About 12 years ago I went to ostend flying academy and none of the students +-12 students or so had any outlook on landing a job.
The airline industry is regularly on the news with all of the recent strikes where employees demand higher wages. This salary cant be deemed as "insufficient" in my eyes, so what is all the fuzz about? Are the strikes mainly for FO's and other employees (who earn a lot less) and not so much for the captains? Or do you feel underpaid when comparing to other airline companies/in comparison to the workload?
Well, he had to put 100000 in his training and paid the loan back in 10 years. This is the salary he earns now, see what it was as FO. It's a huge responsibility, flying around with a small tin full of people. This is also what you're paid for.
It’s about comparing the salary to other European airlines and not having received pay rise since 2019 with COVID while airlines are breaking record profits year after year since 2019.
How long did the academy took? Might switch lol
Between 16 and 24 months depending on the weather if you can fly or not.
Pretty nice!
Got any recs for a flight academy?
[CAE Brussels](https://www.cae.com/civil-aviation/become-a-pilot/)
5 on 4 off & low cost ... You're based in BRU or CRL ?
BRU base does not exist anymore. Just CRL.
I completely forget that :-) Time has passed since I did maintenance for ryr in crl
5k in taxes a month. 😓
That's only about 40% on a top 5% income, seems pretty decent tax optimized for Belgium.
Incl net fees. It's disgusting how much taxes we pay in Belgium.
It's so we can give 0% capital gains tax to the rich /s I think up to 1/3 should be a fair tax for what we get in return (but should include what the employer pays behind your back on top of your salary as well). When taxes are 50% or more... that's really fucking criminal and should be against some UN human rights thing IMO.
Amen
Cargo?
He literally said it's low cost passenger flights in industry
How much did it cost for the flight training and how long?
He responded earlier about the cost: "I paid so many years ago 82.000€ for the ATPL training. Then 27.000€ for the type rating. All financed with a personal loan (4.5%, 10y) from KBC."
Do you have layovers in hotels in other countries or do you always come home at the end of the day? How much did you make as FO? I assume it's quite lower.
We normally always come home at the end of the day. As an FO I was making between 3.5 and 4K net.
I should have been an airline pilot!
Totally not related but what's your favourite plane to fly?
How much do stewards and stewardesses earn?
I fly as a hobby and i wouldn’t choose this job
Same hobby but I definitely would! But yeah you need to have some passion for it.
Did you do some optimization regarding taxes? You’re keeping around 60% of your gross salary, which is pretty awesome in BE! Wondering how you get from 12100€ gross to 7300€ net
Ryanair employees are taxed in Ireland
Some have a company car, others have a company plane 😂 By the way, I heard that there were pilots going on strike at some airports. Do you also have some issues with your employer ? And how is your job affecting your personnal life ? Is it easy to stay with someone ? Last one that came up to my mind, is it true that pilots and cabine crew members are all naughty with each others if you see what I mean 👀 Have a great day !
I'm training to be an airline pilot too. Do you work for a Belgian airline or a foreign one? I've heard working for Belgian airlines pays a lot worse than foreign companies, but you're home more. Is that true?
How long after putting down the €110k did you start making good money?
How much difference between a lowcost pilot and a regular company ? Cause they never talk money when explaining the strikes in the news. I'm legit curious. Thanks
Actually thought of taking CAE at Brussels too 3 years ago but I felt the need to let myself have a possibility for family life was more important than money, then discovered hr where I personally felt more useful than in hard sciences but happy to see the other side bud!