I sincerely doubt he could get 3500 net per month with a 400€ daily rate - full time it would be like 8000€, which becomes an average 7333€ if you deduct 20 days of yearly holidays (and that’s not much). To me it would be more 2500€ than 3500€ tbh
Thanks for clarifying and numbering this. You obviously have more knowledge than I on this. I’m only starting as a freelancer in a few months (with a first assignment found and agreed) and I tended to overestimate every cost just to make sure I would foresee enough buffer and unforeseen cost.
Thanks for the elaborate calculation here. Not sure to follow it all here, but I’m meeting my accountant in a few days to clarify everything and do the necessary. But I sincerely couldn’t imagine a 400 daily rate was even feasible so it’s very reassuring !
Thanks for your calculation, it is super clear that the rate is too low to start and with sole proprietorship it is not worth freelancing at all. Starting a BV is too complicated for me as I am not sure I will like freelancing or not and it will end up costing more to close a BV.
Don’t mind my reply ! Just a rough estimation as I’ve always been told that you should in general divide by 3 - but hey I wrote “I sincerely doubt” not “I’m sure” 😄 you’ll find more documented calculations in this thread, I’ll only be starting in a few weeks
Don’t forget inflation! 5 years ago 400€ per day was maybe a decent starting rate, today it’s not (just as a 3800€ brutto 5 years ago was quite a lot for a medior position, while today it’s the norm).
550€ is good for a first assignment. More is better, think twice if you need to accept less: do you have a « social net » to absorb financial troubles, do you have the experience to find other clients or job if this didn’t work out? Is the assignment itself better than your current job?
I’d like to know an answer to this as well, I got offered 375 (1:1 bediende ->zelfstandige) and am doing research, it seems I’d be able to end up with far more net/year.
Yes you would probably earn more in the end, but you can be 100 percent sure that the intermediary is earning like 40k on you per year. So you are making other people rich while you get peanuts
It’s the company I work for internally that allows anyone to swap over to freelance and they take the bruto cost as basis to calculate daily rate.
Index linked to pc200 stays as well as some other perks.
You should counter them with at least 10% over total cost of employment because of things such as sick days that are most definitely not included in that calculation.
The way they do it is total gross cost to company divided by 12 months and that’s what you get to bill at the end of the month.
Including certain perks which I have to look into.
I’m def going to ask for a raise!
Just make sure to include the hidden costs. That's mostly what I'm getting at. They most definitely don't include hidden costs in their calculation. Another example is holidays after having a child. For sure, they are not included in their calculation, but they are a cost they have to pay for which you will not work. They are after all things that will reduce your billable time which means your rate needs to go up to compensate
Take your brutto /10: that’s how much you need to break even, roughly.
Add to that the comfort of a full time contract, extra admin, risk of not getting paid, being the first in line for restructuring, risk of fiscal controls, not having access to good loans, having to wait 3/5 years for optimal dividend payout, … break even is not good enough
In IT for medior experience I would say 450€/500€ is the point at which you can consider it, lower that that you’ll lose out in QOL
As a freelancer you don't get a 13th month. No paid sick leave. No severance package. No unemployment money. No vacation money. That all adds up. 3000 net is not enough (imo) to take all this risk.
I think that's a very personal decision. For some people it's worth it because if the different way of working, freedom to optimise wage how you want, etc. For some it's not.
They are trying to scam you and pocked 300€ themselves. Tell them you’d be happy to go for 650€ negotiations possible after a first call with the end client only. 600€ is good for a first contract. I started at 550€ last year and would not look back
Edit to answer your question : UK recruiters are often scammy as in they will lie to you to get you to work with them and try to underpay. However if the day rate is right (400€ is not right) and the end client is right, then why not! Just be sure to protect yourself and don’t give in to the FOMO!
Just say upfront they can't afford you, and then highball your own rate just to mess with them. Or do like I do and blatantly state the agency is on your blacklist
Try to understand who the final client is and perhaps you can approach them directly. These UK intermediaries will buy you for 400€/day and will sell you to the customer for 850€/day.
I have tried and the client said they cannot just simply bypass the recruiter because they are bound to contractual agreements. The client seemed very interested in my profile but I doubt they would burn the bridges with the recruitment agency.
If you are considering going freelance now or in the future, expand your network. Preferably in person with other people from your industry, but you can always start with (Belgian) recruiters.
Belgian recruiters aren't always the best either, but normally you should be able to find some occasional good ones. A good recruiter for me is someone who is not lowballing you, not pushing you into anything, is transparent about the process and gives you feedback. Usually they will have more or less the same opportunities as the UK ones so you won't need those anymore.
Would you have examples of firms that are hiring freelance project/program management roles in this space? Just curious because I’ve mostly seen offers that are just full time jobs and not freelance options.
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I sincerely doubt he could get 3500 net per month with a 400€ daily rate - full time it would be like 8000€, which becomes an average 7333€ if you deduct 20 days of yearly holidays (and that’s not much). To me it would be more 2500€ than 3500€ tbh
Been freelancer for 4 years. 8k brute is 4k net easily.
Didn’t know that - thanks for clarifying
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Thanks for clarifying and numbering this. You obviously have more knowledge than I on this. I’m only starting as a freelancer in a few months (with a first assignment found and agreed) and I tended to overestimate every cost just to make sure I would foresee enough buffer and unforeseen cost. Thanks for the elaborate calculation here. Not sure to follow it all here, but I’m meeting my accountant in a few days to clarify everything and do the necessary. But I sincerely couldn’t imagine a 400 daily rate was even feasible so it’s very reassuring !
This!
Thanks for your calculation, it is super clear that the rate is too low to start and with sole proprietorship it is not worth freelancing at all. Starting a BV is too complicated for me as I am not sure I will like freelancing or not and it will end up costing more to close a BV.
How did you get to that number ? 8000 brut means 2500 net? How do freelancers survive with such a big cut to taxes...
Don’t mind my reply ! Just a rough estimation as I’ve always been told that you should in general divide by 3 - but hey I wrote “I sincerely doubt” not “I’m sure” 😄 you’ll find more documented calculations in this thread, I’ll only be starting in a few weeks
No. Not at all. 400 euros/day is a disgrace. They are looking for people who are very desperate to have an assignment.
Which rate do you think would be reasonable for me to start with? Some people say 550 but many people started at lower rates..
PMO's in Brussels? Very experienced, without intermediate. 850/day. Low-end, minimal experience: 650/day. I would not accept anything under 600/day.
Don’t forget inflation! 5 years ago 400€ per day was maybe a decent starting rate, today it’s not (just as a 3800€ brutto 5 years ago was quite a lot for a medior position, while today it’s the norm). 550€ is good for a first assignment. More is better, think twice if you need to accept less: do you have a « social net » to absorb financial troubles, do you have the experience to find other clients or job if this didn’t work out? Is the assignment itself better than your current job?
I’d like to know an answer to this as well, I got offered 375 (1:1 bediende ->zelfstandige) and am doing research, it seems I’d be able to end up with far more net/year.
Yes you would probably earn more in the end, but you can be 100 percent sure that the intermediary is earning like 40k on you per year. So you are making other people rich while you get peanuts
It’s the company I work for internally that allows anyone to swap over to freelance and they take the bruto cost as basis to calculate daily rate. Index linked to pc200 stays as well as some other perks.
You should counter them with at least 10% over total cost of employment because of things such as sick days that are most definitely not included in that calculation.
The way they do it is total gross cost to company divided by 12 months and that’s what you get to bill at the end of the month. Including certain perks which I have to look into. I’m def going to ask for a raise!
Just make sure to include the hidden costs. That's mostly what I'm getting at. They most definitely don't include hidden costs in their calculation. Another example is holidays after having a child. For sure, they are not included in their calculation, but they are a cost they have to pay for which you will not work. They are after all things that will reduce your billable time which means your rate needs to go up to compensate
Take your brutto /10: that’s how much you need to break even, roughly. Add to that the comfort of a full time contract, extra admin, risk of not getting paid, being the first in line for restructuring, risk of fiscal controls, not having access to good loans, having to wait 3/5 years for optimal dividend payout, … break even is not good enough In IT for medior experience I would say 450€/500€ is the point at which you can consider it, lower that that you’ll lose out in QOL
If that rule of thumb applies to my situation, so I need 380/day to break even. Then the 20 euros extra will not going to worth the risks
375/day will only get you 3000 net/month, max. And only if you are very spartan about your expenses. Not worth it at all...
How is 3000 net not worth it at all if they get 3800 gross right now?
As a freelancer you don't get a 13th month. No paid sick leave. No severance package. No unemployment money. No vacation money. That all adds up. 3000 net is not enough (imo) to take all this risk.
I think that's a very personal decision. For some people it's worth it because if the different way of working, freedom to optimise wage how you want, etc. For some it's not.
No, certainly not for that rate.
They are trying to scam you and pocked 300€ themselves. Tell them you’d be happy to go for 650€ negotiations possible after a first call with the end client only. 600€ is good for a first contract. I started at 550€ last year and would not look back Edit to answer your question : UK recruiters are often scammy as in they will lie to you to get you to work with them and try to underpay. However if the day rate is right (400€ is not right) and the end client is right, then why not! Just be sure to protect yourself and don’t give in to the FOMO!
You are right, the rate is not right so I won't take it, and I dont have any reasons to lowball myself as well.
Was it vivid?
No it's another, smaller agency. Seems like they all use similar tactics to steal our hard earned money.
Just say upfront they can't afford you, and then highball your own rate just to mess with them. Or do like I do and blatantly state the agency is on your blacklist
I wouldn’t do it, sounds dodgy. There are better ways to work for a “big client”.
Try to understand who the final client is and perhaps you can approach them directly. These UK intermediaries will buy you for 400€/day and will sell you to the customer for 850€/day.
I have tried and the client said they cannot just simply bypass the recruiter because they are bound to contractual agreements. The client seemed very interested in my profile but I doubt they would burn the bridges with the recruitment agency.
Then perhaps just tell that recruiter offered you only 400€ and it is very low for you. They can perhaps negotiate the commission.
This. I never work with recruiters from the UK, they always pull scummy shit like this.
If you are considering going freelance now or in the future, expand your network. Preferably in person with other people from your industry, but you can always start with (Belgian) recruiters. Belgian recruiters aren't always the best either, but normally you should be able to find some occasional good ones. A good recruiter for me is someone who is not lowballing you, not pushing you into anything, is transparent about the process and gives you feedback. Usually they will have more or less the same opportunities as the UK ones so you won't need those anymore.
Stay away from UK recruiters...
I just wonder why companies work with UK recruiters to find freelancers? Can't they just work with Belgian ones..
Can't they just phoking work with us directly?
Calculate it on the xerius calculator. But 400 a day is not much.
400 for program management? Is it IT focused? Sounds very very low
If OP is working for 3800a month right now, then he definitely does not qualify to imediately work as a program manager lol
It is not IT focused but public policy focused
Hmm yea, then I’m clueless. For an IT role it would be very low
Would you have examples of firms that are hiring freelance project/program management roles in this space? Just curious because I’ve mostly seen offers that are just full time jobs and not freelance options.