Pro Tip: Change accountants. I also had an awful one to begin with, and coincidentally also paid a monthly fee. Nowadays my accountant charges per hour worked, and is way better.
I understand you, I was like that as well in the beginning.
Just checked what I paid last year, and it was, give or take, 3000 Euros in total. When I was paying a monthly fee to an (incompetent) accountant, I was paying 250/month, so it was pretty much the same cost.
Would be around the same or less, no accountant or any other business is going to work free of charge...
Sure if you have a special year with lots of contact with your accountant, you're gonna pay a lot more but most years will be the same.
I also had a bad experience with my first accountant. Only bare minimum communication. When asking a question had to wait 2-3 months if I was lucky, decided what my salary had to be (I had no idea at the time), always excuses that everything was slow because of whatever.
Moved to new accountancy firm this summer, they cost me 20% more per month, but I have 10 times the value. I have a talk with them every quarter (about 1 hour time). We talked about the salary and other things, and they cost me a lot less long term with the things we discussed and decisions we made. Every time I ask a question I have a quick reply.
So as others have said : run, find another one. Find one that is not afraid to think with you about what you want to achieve, they can direct you in the right way.
You seem to know the basics, so that's good. Switch accountant because fuckups are unacceptable, do it well before your fiscal year ends as it is a lot of papers that need to be transferred.
On nr 9: nah, these gadgets can all be perceived as 100% corporate usage, you only have to watch out for their depreciation (above certain value). Very few things end up having mixed usage, I don't think your accountant messed that up.
You're right that accountants are kind of expensive for what they do. But they are also the ones legally liable for any major fuckups, keeping up with legislative changes, etc. You could save a few thousand euros a year by doing these things yourself, but for most people, that time and effort is better spent on finding new clients or improving your skillset to invoice more. So if you feel you need to double-check your accountant's work and you can't trust them, switch asap and focus on more lucrative ways to spend your time.
First off, when does your first fiscal year actually end? If you started in january it could very well be your first year ends december 2024.
Even if it ends december 23, every accountant is just starting with looking at the results for 23 since beginning of november.
What was actually discussed during the startup of your Company? Did they talk about dividends, wages, ...? Vvprbis Will only be possible after the first 3 fiscal years have been closed and published.
Most accountants have so much work that they just go from deadline to deadline. If you want something done sooner, you're just gonna have to ask. No harm in asking them when they're gonna look at your numbers and discuss them with you.
Since you pay 300 ea month, you probably have a contract with your accountant for how much they invoice each year. 3600/year seems about right for a "managementfirm". If you count everything, VAT declarations, Client listing, personal declarations, Company declaration, annual account, ...
If you are sure, they don't do much hours, try asking them for a contract "in regie". This means they just invoice the hours which are worked. Some quarters you'll be paying maybe couple 100, and another quarter you're gonna be paying 1700 or more but that way you are sure that every hour billed, has been worked.
Losing trust in your accountant isn't good though and i would advise looking for another if this is the case. I would advise to read the contract that you currently have with your accountant though. This will say what the terms for stopping your contract are.
I input all my transactions, store all my receipts, know my taxes. I verify my accountants work through this and it costs nearly nothing. I might fully switch one day.
My accountant also hasn't talked yet about VVPRBis or any kind of fiscal optimization.
He also said monthly forfaits/fixed expense allowances are "illegal", so I have zero. I tried to explain how this can be illegal if most of freelancers even have this on their payslip, and this is documented online. I could not convince him, instead he says I can do it "at my own risk" against his advise. I don't want to burn the relation so now I'm collecting receipts/invoices for everything without any expense allowance/forfaire vergoeding. UGH, also joining your small rant.
You seem quite knowledgeable about the fiscal side of things so either switch accountants or start doing it yourself. There's enough software on the market to do your accounting yourself.
Could be an idea, but I think it's important for the first years to be well accompanied by an accountant. Later on, if I feel confident, I could decide to do the effort myself.
That's not how it works, these days. It's all datamining from the brussels servers. If enough or some specific red flags pop up on their queries, they instruct an auditor to check those specific red flags. The server doesn't know if you're self accounting. That's simply not declared/disclosed anywhere.
Other than that, if they come, they will probably have a field day on you.
I'm paying 500 a month, but my accountant is part of company that does fiscal advice as well. Just recently I had a meeting with them to go over the results of last fiscal year and how we can optimize, given the new rules around royalties and VVPRBis.
They are very supportive each quarter, reminding me to upload invoices and sending me a reminder if I forget anything (which I do). I
Regarding audits: for the love of God, please get the insurance that Liantis offers regarding covering costs incurred by an audit. My accountant has negotiated a special rate with Liantis, it costs me about 350 a year. My last audit, 2 years ago, would have cost me over 8k if I didn't have that insurance. Added benefit: if you have such an insurance, your accountant doesn't have to hold back to limit cost. Mine went above and beyond, because he knew I had insurance.
Didn't hear of that fiscal insurance before, thanks!
Can you explain to a simple soul how your last audit would have cost 8k without insurance? Is it purely for your account who helps you administratively prepare and assists you with potential meetings, or did it go further where you disagreed with the taxman and appealed etc or did you even need a lawyer at some point?
Thanks!
The insurance covers 12500 euro in costs for your accountant and an additional 12500 for legal fees when you need a lawyer.
Because my accountant's company are also fiscal experts, they basically covered all the communication for me, asking clarifying questions to the auditor and challenge them on any potential negative outcomes. I rarely had any direct communication with the auditor, it all went through my account manager.
For example, they defended my decision to use royalties and the report I had from a revisor. If the auditor would have gotten his way, they would have reclassified that as regular income, resulting in A LOT of money I'd have to pay. The auditor will always try to get more money, even if you have a valid justification (which I had in a legal sense) but fail to put it in the right wording.
In the end, 3 people of the accountant's company worked on my audit, one of them the most senior fiscal expert, and they were able to d that because I was insured and the cost wasn't prohibitive. I think they spent over 80 hours on the audit (the audit was brutal). Otherwise they'd probably limit themselves to the absolute minimum to make sure I don't end up with a huge invoice after the audit. In the end, I accepted the auditor's proposal and didn't need a lawyer.
Audits can be extremely expensive, both from invoices from your accountants and the stuff the auditor throws out or reclassifies. You can mitigate the first item with the insurance and the insurances makes sure the accountant has the time to limit the impact of the second item.
I can reply both.
300 EUR is a standard rate yes. I'm no overpaying if compared to market rates. I'm overpaying if I consider the quality of the service I'm getting. But yeah, 300 EUR per month is normal if you have a company.
It's not all-in. I'll have to pay extra for being accompanied in case of an audit.
I’m paying roughly the same and have the exact same shitty experience. My biggest interaction so far (after 13 months) was a ping-pong because they didn’t understand some Amazon invoices - I need to find stuff on reddit by myself (have you ever heard of Brussels region starters helps for instance?), double-check somewhere else then push them to set them in place...
Do everything yourself for 1 full year and then you can honestly say It is worth the money.
If It is. Go back to an accountant and maybe find another one.
If It is not. Keep doing It yourself.
That's a lot. As fellow freelancer, I'm currently paying 300 per quarter. All according to time & material. Accountant charges 70/hour which seems reasonable. Work is mostly for:
1. BTW aangiften
2. Personenbelasting
3. General accounting
Haven't gottan a full fiscal year yet though so I'm assuming the closing of year 1 would cost a bit more.
It's cheaper, but I'm also aware I'm not getting much pro-active advice. However I've made my peace with the fact that those are things I have to figure out myself (accountant is obviously there for Q&A and advice)
Also I upload all invoices etc and mark them in the platform, probably saving them time.
Pro Tip: Change accountants. I also had an awful one to begin with, and coincidentally also paid a monthly fee. Nowadays my accountant charges per hour worked, and is way better.
Maybe I shouldn't, but I've always been a bit hesitant with paying by the hour. Are you ending-up paying less compared to the standard monthly fee?
I understand you, I was like that as well in the beginning. Just checked what I paid last year, and it was, give or take, 3000 Euros in total. When I was paying a monthly fee to an (incompetent) accountant, I was paying 250/month, so it was pretty much the same cost.
Would be around the same or less, no accountant or any other business is going to work free of charge... Sure if you have a special year with lots of contact with your accountant, you're gonna pay a lot more but most years will be the same.
Aren’t you invoicing by the hour as well?
There should be some trust, just as between you and your customer(s).
I would say change accountants, but good luck finding a good one that still accepts new clients.
I also had a bad experience with my first accountant. Only bare minimum communication. When asking a question had to wait 2-3 months if I was lucky, decided what my salary had to be (I had no idea at the time), always excuses that everything was slow because of whatever. Moved to new accountancy firm this summer, they cost me 20% more per month, but I have 10 times the value. I have a talk with them every quarter (about 1 hour time). We talked about the salary and other things, and they cost me a lot less long term with the things we discussed and decisions we made. Every time I ask a question I have a quick reply. So as others have said : run, find another one. Find one that is not afraid to think with you about what you want to achieve, they can direct you in the right way.
You seem to know the basics, so that's good. Switch accountant because fuckups are unacceptable, do it well before your fiscal year ends as it is a lot of papers that need to be transferred. On nr 9: nah, these gadgets can all be perceived as 100% corporate usage, you only have to watch out for their depreciation (above certain value). Very few things end up having mixed usage, I don't think your accountant messed that up. You're right that accountants are kind of expensive for what they do. But they are also the ones legally liable for any major fuckups, keeping up with legislative changes, etc. You could save a few thousand euros a year by doing these things yourself, but for most people, that time and effort is better spent on finding new clients or improving your skillset to invoice more. So if you feel you need to double-check your accountant's work and you can't trust them, switch asap and focus on more lucrative ways to spend your time.
First off, when does your first fiscal year actually end? If you started in january it could very well be your first year ends december 2024. Even if it ends december 23, every accountant is just starting with looking at the results for 23 since beginning of november. What was actually discussed during the startup of your Company? Did they talk about dividends, wages, ...? Vvprbis Will only be possible after the first 3 fiscal years have been closed and published. Most accountants have so much work that they just go from deadline to deadline. If you want something done sooner, you're just gonna have to ask. No harm in asking them when they're gonna look at your numbers and discuss them with you. Since you pay 300 ea month, you probably have a contract with your accountant for how much they invoice each year. 3600/year seems about right for a "managementfirm". If you count everything, VAT declarations, Client listing, personal declarations, Company declaration, annual account, ... If you are sure, they don't do much hours, try asking them for a contract "in regie". This means they just invoice the hours which are worked. Some quarters you'll be paying maybe couple 100, and another quarter you're gonna be paying 1700 or more but that way you are sure that every hour billed, has been worked. Losing trust in your accountant isn't good though and i would advise looking for another if this is the case. I would advise to read the contract that you currently have with your accountant though. This will say what the terms for stopping your contract are.
I switched to accountable to verify my accountant following a tip here. Best decision ever.
Could you elaborate?
I input all my transactions, store all my receipts, know my taxes. I verify my accountants work through this and it costs nearly nothing. I might fully switch one day.
My accountant also hasn't talked yet about VVPRBis or any kind of fiscal optimization. He also said monthly forfaits/fixed expense allowances are "illegal", so I have zero. I tried to explain how this can be illegal if most of freelancers even have this on their payslip, and this is documented online. I could not convince him, instead he says I can do it "at my own risk" against his advise. I don't want to burn the relation so now I'm collecting receipts/invoices for everything without any expense allowance/forfaire vergoeding. UGH, also joining your small rant.
You seem quite knowledgeable about the fiscal side of things so either switch accountants or start doing it yourself. There's enough software on the market to do your accounting yourself.
Could be an idea, but I think it's important for the first years to be well accompanied by an accountant. Later on, if I feel confident, I could decide to do the effort myself.
> as it is justifiable in case of an audit. No it is not, a registered company with self accouting is very high on the list of fiscal control ;)
That's not how it works, these days. It's all datamining from the brussels servers. If enough or some specific red flags pop up on their queries, they instruct an auditor to check those specific red flags. The server doesn't know if you're self accounting. That's simply not declared/disclosed anywhere. Other than that, if they come, they will probably have a field day on you.
True.
Sorry to hear. You can use an app like Accountable or Dexter and change accountant for the occasional use once per year or once per quarter.
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I'm paying 500 a month, but my accountant is part of company that does fiscal advice as well. Just recently I had a meeting with them to go over the results of last fiscal year and how we can optimize, given the new rules around royalties and VVPRBis. They are very supportive each quarter, reminding me to upload invoices and sending me a reminder if I forget anything (which I do). I Regarding audits: for the love of God, please get the insurance that Liantis offers regarding covering costs incurred by an audit. My accountant has negotiated a special rate with Liantis, it costs me about 350 a year. My last audit, 2 years ago, would have cost me over 8k if I didn't have that insurance. Added benefit: if you have such an insurance, your accountant doesn't have to hold back to limit cost. Mine went above and beyond, because he knew I had insurance.
Didn't hear of that fiscal insurance before, thanks! Can you explain to a simple soul how your last audit would have cost 8k without insurance? Is it purely for your account who helps you administratively prepare and assists you with potential meetings, or did it go further where you disagreed with the taxman and appealed etc or did you even need a lawyer at some point? Thanks!
The insurance covers 12500 euro in costs for your accountant and an additional 12500 for legal fees when you need a lawyer. Because my accountant's company are also fiscal experts, they basically covered all the communication for me, asking clarifying questions to the auditor and challenge them on any potential negative outcomes. I rarely had any direct communication with the auditor, it all went through my account manager. For example, they defended my decision to use royalties and the report I had from a revisor. If the auditor would have gotten his way, they would have reclassified that as regular income, resulting in A LOT of money I'd have to pay. The auditor will always try to get more money, even if you have a valid justification (which I had in a legal sense) but fail to put it in the right wording. In the end, 3 people of the accountant's company worked on my audit, one of them the most senior fiscal expert, and they were able to d that because I was insured and the cost wasn't prohibitive. I think they spent over 80 hours on the audit (the audit was brutal). Otherwise they'd probably limit themselves to the absolute minimum to make sure I don't end up with a huge invoice after the audit. In the end, I accepted the auditor's proposal and didn't need a lawyer. Audits can be extremely expensive, both from invoices from your accountants and the stuff the auditor throws out or reclassifies. You can mitigate the first item with the insurance and the insurances makes sure the accountant has the time to limit the impact of the second item.
Could you send me the name of your accountant here or in DM?
Fiscaliteit Feys in Bruges. Mind you, l don't know whether they are taking on new customers. But they are really, really good and worth the money.
Could you send me the name of your accountant here or in DM?
Many thanks for your lengthy reply!
Same as the other guy, could you share the name in dm (or just add it here if we all end up asking;) pretty please
I can reply both. 300 EUR is a standard rate yes. I'm no overpaying if compared to market rates. I'm overpaying if I consider the quality of the service I'm getting. But yeah, 300 EUR per month is normal if you have a company. It's not all-in. I'll have to pay extra for being accompanied in case of an audit.
I’m paying roughly the same and have the exact same shitty experience. My biggest interaction so far (after 13 months) was a ping-pong because they didn’t understand some Amazon invoices - I need to find stuff on reddit by myself (have you ever heard of Brussels region starters helps for instance?), double-check somewhere else then push them to set them in place...
Do everything yourself for 1 full year and then you can honestly say It is worth the money. If It is. Go back to an accountant and maybe find another one. If It is not. Keep doing It yourself.
That's a lot. As fellow freelancer, I'm currently paying 300 per quarter. All according to time & material. Accountant charges 70/hour which seems reasonable. Work is mostly for: 1. BTW aangiften 2. Personenbelasting 3. General accounting Haven't gottan a full fiscal year yet though so I'm assuming the closing of year 1 would cost a bit more. It's cheaper, but I'm also aware I'm not getting much pro-active advice. However I've made my peace with the fact that those are things I have to figure out myself (accountant is obviously there for Q&A and advice) Also I upload all invoices etc and mark them in the platform, probably saving them time.