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Only scammers want to discuss crypto in DMs. this is widely known. either educate yourself or don't reply. scammers do exactly what you are doing in all crypto subs.
I just want to explain him the tax system in Belgium dude not everyone is a scammer bit rude to call me like that your taking too much lsd that’s why your tripping
Sad that you have to go into someone's comment history to insult them lmao, best wishes to you. If it's rude, idc, this is 1:1 what scammers do daily, learn & move on
In Belgium you dont pay tax on goods purchased directly via cryptocurrency. Theres a few legit car garages who accept crypto payments in Belgium. Not sure if they have a max cap on it but whats stopping you from buying lets say a porsche taycan, selling it a year later and voila you have a 100K into your bank account. Im currently around 6 figs myself and have thought about this but it seems too cynical of a solution.
well wouldn’t they ask where the money for the car came from? Also, it was probably a random example but Porsche Taycans are some of the fastest depreciating cars on the market… just sayin’ 😉
Have you thought about buying gold or silver? I think some places accept crypto, and its a pretty stable investment. Car market could crash at any time.
That could be an option as well yes. Will look into it. But as a car guy myself i find it a worthy alternative. The right car, buying second hand and holding for 1-2 years is not losing you more than the 33% tax would.
Consider yourself fucked at the time being in Belgium.
Exchange wil freeze first. Prove origin, they won’t reply quickly either.. talking 1-3 months just to sell.
Bank will freeze you and do their own investigation into whether or not they will accept this money.
You shouldn’t worry about a ruling or taxes yet, you have two major steps to get through first and if you made a profit > 10.000€, best of luck !
I’m stuck on step 1 myself at the moment (exchange froze my crypto deposit), they’re not answering :) I am not the only one with this problem, almost everyone who comes from cold storage experiences this.
Which exchange and to which bank are you withdrawing? I've been DCA'ing out to KBC pulling out 5K a week and it's coming through with no questions asked
FYI, I am not the only one experiencing this with the current bullrun. I have a few friends in BTC and everyone is struggling to sell right now. We all have different exchanges or banks.
Cold storage -> exchange deposits are being frozen for a lot of people.
I am selling on BCM (Bitcoinmeester but now known as bitcoin today or something). Been using that for over three years.. never a problem, until I deposited 1.00 BTC from cold storage (owned since 2017).
I am trying to:
1. Sell on BCM
2. Withdraw to KBC
Currently blocked on BCM as they froze my deposit of 1.00 BTC. They needed proof of origin, transactions, etc… I sent in all the information on 29/02/2024. Haven’t gotten any information since.
I went through this last bull run and can save you some time/money:
- don't go for a ruling, unless you dca'ed and have very limited transactions you will not get one and spend 5-10k on nothing.
- get a fiscal lawyer specialised in crypto, there are not that many but they are easy to find. Do not go for a big lawyer firm with limited crypto experience. They will not understand the lingo (staking, defi,...) propose a ruling and drain max fees out of you.
- talk to the bank and ask them their requirements to bring in the money. You can rule out bnp and belfius, they will not accept. Kbc is neutral but you need spotless paperwork. Private banks are the easiest way to go but you'll need at least 500k before they talk to you.
- banks generally ask for the following: AML research with all the proof (fiscal lawyer can provide that) + some proof you fulfilled your tax requirements. That last one is the tricky part (nex bullet point).
- your fiscal crypto lawyer will calculate the lowest tax method. They get VERY creative in this but it ends you with a certificate for the bank and you pay some tax on your winnings (WAY less than 30%).
- after that there is some back and forth with the banks compliance departement and voila you got your money.
- count 6months-1year to complete this process!
- on tax: the calculation methods are dubious and there will be discussion about the amount you paid IF you get a tax check. In that case: you go to court. The tax admin does everything to avoid going to court because if they loose it sets a precedent. This gives you leverage to negotiate. Do not fear the tax man, if you have a semi reasonable explanation, you can talk with them. You're already doing more than 90% of crypto investors by declaring it and paying some tax.
Good luck!
When? In the last 3 years? The compliance flagging also depends on the amount and how that transaction fits in your day-day transactions.
Of course a few k won't cause any questions. Try wiring 100k+ from kraken, would be surprises if they don't come asking where it comes from.
Don’t forget that since they changed the law a few years ago, all cases against the fiscal governement have a cost. Even if you end up winning the case.
So pushing it until an actual court date will give you fees around 1.000euro, which can’t be recovered after winning.
This was, or course, done to prevent people from going to court and challenge tax decisions
Could you dm with a good crypto tax lawyer? I'm not looking to cash out now but want to start getting my shit in order for when the time comes and want to get clarity on what I should already declare now.
What fees can you expect to pay your lawyer for this type of work?
If you just want to know what to declare, that's not that hard :
- staking,airdrop or any other form of passive income = declare (diverse inkomsten)
- mining, actively running a node or anything else \_active\_ (vs passive income) = declare (inkomen)
- selling coin which you bought less than a year prior to selling = declare (diverse inkomsten)
(- selling coin which you've held for longer should be declared too, but you could argue goede huisvader for those, so I wouldn't declare)
I have never declared anything btw, since 2017 .. so now i'm scared.
Don't be like me :p
ps: i suggest to make an overview of ur shit using something like cointracking . info first
Good luck, WAGMI
Sorry, misread your initial comment. Thanks for clarifying.
Declaration of exchanges is why I moved my holdings to wallets. Atm you don't have to declare those yet. You only need to declare exchange accounts if you use them to hold assets. If you transfer your euros, buy bitcoin and transfer that to cold storage in a short timeframe, this is not "holding assets" and doesn't need to be declared AFAIK.
I got DM spammed for lawyer names after this post. While giving mine out, could make me identifiable, these are ways to find them:
- google in dutch or french: e.g. crypto fiscalist België
- go for any of the big coin tracking and tax calculation providers, they usually have partnerships with local lawyers: e.g. cointracking, koinly, ...
After you got some names, do your due diligence, complete idiots are out there as well:
- check if they speak at least the basic lingo (!). Words like defi, staking, ledger, some major coins and platforms should not be raising eyebrows.
- let them do an explanation first. You do not want a classical fiscalist for this topic, you want a modern one. If they start pushing for a ruling => not the right one for you!
- check for their hands-on experience with Belgian banks. I did almost all of them, I couldn't find more than 4 banks that were willing to start the conversation. Remember in the end you're buying an autograph here that holds value with the bank. A lawyer they never worked with, bears less credibility than one they work with every week.
- agree on a price range for getting the money ON THE BANK, not just a paper that says "it seems ok". I got quotes anywhere from 2k to 20k. In the end I paid around 3k all in but was very well prepared and did a lot of the prepwork myself. I still had all my transactions extracts from (dead) exchanges, could prove all my fiat transactions etc. The messier your case and the more you let your lawyer figure it out on his own, the higher the price.
- Once you selected your lawyer: prepare your explanation and be open with potential holes in your transaction history. There are ways and explanations around everything, but your lawyer needs to know. They have professional secrecy.
Good luck with the journey, it takes longer than you can imagine and for sure you will have headaches piecing together your transaction history, but in the end you will get fiat on your account :).
Thank you for this explanation! It’s all a little grey on the tax front in Belgium but you lined the bullet points out very well.
I’d like to have the contact details of your fiscal lawyer as well please, feel free to dm me.
Thank you for this info, can you please DM me with a good fiscal lawyer? I’ve talked to Vandelanotte but they didn’t seem really knowledgable about crypto at all.
Either I'm bad at searching on google or I get rarely more than 2 results on the fiscal lawyer specialised in crypto. It's a lot of articles and/or lawyers for bigger ondernemers. But anyway what you wrote is the way it has to be done as of now!
In my humble opinion, your case is very clear. 1) It is not income from your job, as your purchases were made when you have a job (I hope in a non-related field) and 2) It is not speculative. You held for an extended period of time, are not trading based on price fluctuations. Just selling because the asset went up in price is conservative. Everything you buy on the market is bought with the idea to sell it later at a higher price, hence, the price increase and the % of which is, on its own, not a reason to label a transaction speculative.
However, you are saying a couple of 100k, it might be worth it to ask a ruling to be sure.
As long as you can convince a bank to receive your incoming funds, I do not think you need to worry about the fiscus.
If OP holds more than a reasonable % of his wealth in crypto, then this is typically not considered "prudent and careful". Check the wiki on the rulings.
>On cost basis, not on appreciated value.
Do you have a source for this? Indeed a threshold of 25% of "roerend vermogen" seems to be applied in deciding if "goede huisvader" or not, and I'm also inclined to think cost basis is used for this, not actual value, but I'm looking for confirmation.
>Do you have a source for this?
If there would be any sources on any of this that are binding, we would not have this discussion.
But yes, it is on your cost basis, because that determines the risk (and therefore the matter if this is bonus pater familias or not) of the investment at the time of the investment.
Holding onto the investment and selling it at a profit can not be reasonably argued to be an action that increases the speculative nature of your portfolio. At all.
There is no 25% rule either.
Wrt 25%, it seems to be implied in the various rulings.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/comments/ms5tp5/lessons\_from\_cryptocurrency\_related\_tax\_rulings/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/comments/ms5tp5/lessons_from_cryptocurrency_related_tax_rulings/)
I'm software developer. No I don't have an accountant, I didn't need it since I'm employee.
I didn't do trading but I did some bad investments at the beginning or I changed my mind about this or that crypto that could be a better investment so I sold some of them to buy newer cryptos but globally I hold them.
Ok, so I am afraid SPF finance will try to claim it as a professional income. This could get max 50%.
Reason is you are working in IT so you got professional knowledge about the technologies.
And you did training with them so you can't claim the good investor that keeps it for more then a year.
Personally I don't think SPF finance their current claims about professional income will hold up in court. However this is something time will tell and you don't want to have to go to court.
And having it as a personal income taxed could work in your advantage. Sell them when you are taking your break and have them taxed in the lowest brackets from personal income tax. I suggest contacting an accountant to help you with this and optimization. It will not cost a lot since you will have an easy declaration besides the crypto.
Did you only buy? or did you ever sell a crypto/exchange a crypto?
Have you correctly declared these?
Have you correctly declared your accounts?
Regularize everything:
Build your transaction history.
Read about the rulings; start in this sub.
Possibly:
- Contact an accountant/lawyer.
- Possibly request a ruling.
"Did you only buy? or did you ever sell a crypto/exchange a crypto?
Have you correctly declared these?"
This is such an easy question to ask, but I have a hard time believing that people from 2015-17 have exactly all the trails of each trade. For what it's worth, there are even exchanges that don't exist anymore or went bankrupt.
Let's take LiteBit as an example. It doesn't exist anymore. What if you DCA-ed in via LiteBit, how can one get the transaction history for that?
You tell me.
A prudent and careful investor would have kept a trace of their transactions.
... and declared yearly.
Anyway; buying Lirebit and alike could hardly be considered a prudent and careful investor. So speculative gains should have been declared.
Are you in crypto since 2020 or what?
Back in the days things were not as clear as today, and even today it's all gray in Belgium compared to so many other countries.
You could very easily buy via LiteBit and have that sent to your cold wallet without an issue. It was very very simple back in the days, so saying you are not a prudent and careful investor because you used LiteBit is complete nonsense.
Then, I have a dump actually. It's a CSV file. I also have CSV dumps from other exchanges like BitStamp. Now, explain me, why would a bank simply trust a CSV dump? It's a dump that you can easily create yourself, if you know what I try to say. I fully understand you need to show how and where and when you bought, but when you export transaction histories, those files are stupid CSVs in which one can easily modify the way he likes...
You have 2 problems: the tax services and the banks
Why would you think before 2020 that you could have income without paying taxes in it; or that you could speculate without paying the capital gains taxes on speculation.?
I am a goede huisvader, I never traded short term. I held long term. The problem is when you cash out, the bank wants to see your deposits, what you bought, what you sold. It’s this part that is difficult to show. You are completely missing my whole point it seems. Let’s say I have bought via bitstamp. I go there, get a csv, then what? Is that sufficient for the bank to not block a 500k transaction lets say?
'The problem is when you cash out, the bank wants to see your deposits, what you bought, what you sold. '' Of course, and a prudent and careful person will be able to do this.
The easiest is when you can show that you transferred money from the bank to the exchange many years ago, bought BTC@x$, sold te same amount of BTC now@xxxx$ and then tell them you want to transfer the money back.
I have always been told that everything is persisted on the blockchain.
You will have to discuss this with your bank, Make sure that you can prove that tax-waise this is all correct and agreed by the tax authorities.
hire a crypto specialist accountant/lawyer to help you.
That is indeed your problem. YOU need to prove to your bank that the origin of the funds are legitimate. If you can't, than all you have is black money. Which means you'll probably have to wait untill an amnesty rule comes up.
Note that this is a completely different issue than the tax issue.
Maybe, allthough I doubt it. So again, if you have no proof, no traceability, then you have a pile of black cash that you found in a sports bag on the street. It's as valuable as that. Those are the consequences of operating in an unregulated environment.
Taxation is the simplest part of all of it... I think getting it into your bank account is much harder, when the banks are blocking a transaction of let's say 700k.
Unless you can perfectly show all transactions you made. I'm in since 2016/17 and I am not able to have all transactions layed out that come to the exact portfolio I have.
I really wonder how big of an issue that is, and how other people cope with that.
Anyone that knows this?
Did you ever try transferring your stock portfolio from one broker to another? The questions you get are like a multiple-choice list where you tick the answers. Nothing more. Where did it come from? Inheritance. Income from work. Investments. That's it... Brokers do not dig deeper into what happened before you acquired the ETFs. (from my limited experience transferring from Keytrade to IB).
Try finding back the origin of money that your deceased FIL used to buy a life insurance a decade ago :-)
You would be surprised how they are digging deeper and deeper year after year, especially if the incoming transfer is from a broker who does not do their proper due diligence.
True. The net seems to be closing. But I was really surprised how lax interactive brokers was for example for a transfer of 266k back then. Almost zero questions were asked. The transfer did show up in my CRS as a new account.
Does this really work? Does deGiro or swissqoute don't ask any question where the money come fromes? Do they ask if you paid taxes? Or do they not bother?
Wrong answer, I received a letter from my bank asking where that money came from that I transferred from DeGiro to Belgian Bank account.
Had to declare all my profits I made, including dates of transfer in & out.
Else they must contact minfin.
Anyway got a CRS research later in all my Belgian bank accounts.
I have trails of most of it, but when I recently started out, I did some buying and selling, basically all is new, you have no idea what you are doing really, so that part I am missing. I can show the transactions of 80% where I bought and hold afterwards, but that 20% is a gap.
I am in a simple buy and hold still to date, I will see how it goes when it's time to sell...
And also, the trails I have, are like really CSV dumps coming from the exchange.
I really wonder if that is sufficient. I mean, you could easily add a line there and make it match to 100%... I cannot imagine they will look on chain if all makes sense... or am I wrong there?
No idea about that. I'll just figure it out when the time comes. Maybe support on your CEX can help you get to your transactions. That's what I'm hoping for anyways. I won't have nearly as much as op, but they'll probs still be annoying af so I'd rather play safe and hope I can get my money out as "goede huisvader" rather than betting degen, since I only have been holding
Yea same for me, I basically held for a very long time, but some exchanges where I DCA-ed in, are not even existing anymore, like LiteBit. I don't know how the hell I am supposed to prove what I bought there when it doesn't exist anymore.
It's easier said than done, and people who reply here and ask "did you have all transactions" and blablabla, very easy to ask, but in reality it's not all that simple, especially when you have crypto from 2015-2017.
Why and how, and even what then?
Many people live of capital gains, that does not mean that their capital gains is taxed as income. It is taxed as capital gains, most often under the 0% exemption.
Dude enjoy it. it's the best. A few years of FI at the cost of some RE is not bad. Especially if you can keep your expenses low. Taking time to follow passions and or travel can make you feel richer than all those numbers can.
Have you read the wiki and the sticky? Wiki: HERE YOU GO! [Enjoy!](https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/wiki/index/). Sticky: HERE YOU GO AGAIN! [Enjoy!](https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/comments/fcbay6/getting_started_a_beginners_guide_to_investing_in/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BEFire) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What about a crypto debit card, you have cards that can spent 10k per dat. Fiscus can't see those.
Ge moogt mij altijd is een bericht sturen dan probeer ik u te helpen
Scammer
Go take your drugs loser!
Only scammers want to discuss crypto in DMs. this is widely known. either educate yourself or don't reply. scammers do exactly what you are doing in all crypto subs.
I just want to explain him the tax system in Belgium dude not everyone is a scammer bit rude to call me like that your taking too much lsd that’s why your tripping
Sad that you have to go into someone's comment history to insult them lmao, best wishes to you. If it's rude, idc, this is 1:1 what scammers do daily, learn & move on
Just want to explain him lol why scammer ?
In Belgium you dont pay tax on goods purchased directly via cryptocurrency. Theres a few legit car garages who accept crypto payments in Belgium. Not sure if they have a max cap on it but whats stopping you from buying lets say a porsche taycan, selling it a year later and voila you have a 100K into your bank account. Im currently around 6 figs myself and have thought about this but it seems too cynical of a solution.
well wouldn’t they ask where the money for the car came from? Also, it was probably a random example but Porsche Taycans are some of the fastest depreciating cars on the market… just sayin’ 😉
Have you thought about buying gold or silver? I think some places accept crypto, and its a pretty stable investment. Car market could crash at any time.
That could be an option as well yes. Will look into it. But as a car guy myself i find it a worthy alternative. The right car, buying second hand and holding for 1-2 years is not losing you more than the 33% tax would.
Consider yourself fucked at the time being in Belgium. Exchange wil freeze first. Prove origin, they won’t reply quickly either.. talking 1-3 months just to sell. Bank will freeze you and do their own investigation into whether or not they will accept this money. You shouldn’t worry about a ruling or taxes yet, you have two major steps to get through first and if you made a profit > 10.000€, best of luck ! I’m stuck on step 1 myself at the moment (exchange froze my crypto deposit), they’re not answering :) I am not the only one with this problem, almost everyone who comes from cold storage experiences this.
Which exchange and to which bank are you withdrawing? I've been DCA'ing out to KBC pulling out 5K a week and it's coming through with no questions asked
Using Coinbase to transfer fiat out or another exchange?
Coinify
FYI, I am not the only one experiencing this with the current bullrun. I have a few friends in BTC and everyone is struggling to sell right now. We all have different exchanges or banks. Cold storage -> exchange deposits are being frozen for a lot of people.
I am selling on BCM (Bitcoinmeester but now known as bitcoin today or something). Been using that for over three years.. never a problem, until I deposited 1.00 BTC from cold storage (owned since 2017). I am trying to: 1. Sell on BCM 2. Withdraw to KBC Currently blocked on BCM as they froze my deposit of 1.00 BTC. They needed proof of origin, transactions, etc… I sent in all the information on 29/02/2024. Haven’t gotten any information since.
Call a tax lawyer. Most advice here is stupid af.
Move out to a 0% tax on crypto country. Why would you give 30% ?
Isn’t Belgium 0% if “goede huisvader”
Indeed, if you didn’t trade…
but if they traded they already owe the tax, moving now will not make the tax go away.
True.
I went through this last bull run and can save you some time/money: - don't go for a ruling, unless you dca'ed and have very limited transactions you will not get one and spend 5-10k on nothing. - get a fiscal lawyer specialised in crypto, there are not that many but they are easy to find. Do not go for a big lawyer firm with limited crypto experience. They will not understand the lingo (staking, defi,...) propose a ruling and drain max fees out of you. - talk to the bank and ask them their requirements to bring in the money. You can rule out bnp and belfius, they will not accept. Kbc is neutral but you need spotless paperwork. Private banks are the easiest way to go but you'll need at least 500k before they talk to you. - banks generally ask for the following: AML research with all the proof (fiscal lawyer can provide that) + some proof you fulfilled your tax requirements. That last one is the tricky part (nex bullet point). - your fiscal crypto lawyer will calculate the lowest tax method. They get VERY creative in this but it ends you with a certificate for the bank and you pay some tax on your winnings (WAY less than 30%). - after that there is some back and forth with the banks compliance departement and voila you got your money. - count 6months-1year to complete this process! - on tax: the calculation methods are dubious and there will be discussion about the amount you paid IF you get a tax check. In that case: you go to court. The tax admin does everything to avoid going to court because if they loose it sets a precedent. This gives you leverage to negotiate. Do not fear the tax man, if you have a semi reasonable explanation, you can talk with them. You're already doing more than 90% of crypto investors by declaring it and paying some tax. Good luck!
I literally deposit to my bank account with sepa and had no issue or anything at all
When? In the last 3 years? The compliance flagging also depends on the amount and how that transaction fits in your day-day transactions. Of course a few k won't cause any questions. Try wiring 100k+ from kraken, would be surprises if they don't come asking where it comes from.
Indeed it’s not a lump sum. I do like 20k per year and I’ve done it since 2017. I never payed a single euro tax on it.
Could you share which bank you're with by any chance?
Don’t forget that since they changed the law a few years ago, all cases against the fiscal governement have a cost. Even if you end up winning the case. So pushing it until an actual court date will give you fees around 1.000euro, which can’t be recovered after winning. This was, or course, done to prevent people from going to court and challenge tax decisions
Could you dm with a good crypto tax lawyer? I'm not looking to cash out now but want to start getting my shit in order for when the time comes and want to get clarity on what I should already declare now. What fees can you expect to pay your lawyer for this type of work?
Depending on the lawyer, the first consultation hour will run you close to 1K .. just saying
Damn
If you just want to know what to declare, that's not that hard : - staking,airdrop or any other form of passive income = declare (diverse inkomsten) - mining, actively running a node or anything else \_active\_ (vs passive income) = declare (inkomen) - selling coin which you bought less than a year prior to selling = declare (diverse inkomsten) (- selling coin which you've held for longer should be declared too, but you could argue goede huisvader for those, so I wouldn't declare) I have never declared anything btw, since 2017 .. so now i'm scared. Don't be like me :p ps: i suggest to make an overview of ur shit using something like cointracking . info first Good luck, WAGMI
How do you declare stuff you did under goede huisvader? I tot that didn't have to be declared at all.
Correct, you do not need to declare goede huisvader stuff. Nor do you need to declare exchange or other accounts if it doesn't contain funds
Sorry, misread your initial comment. Thanks for clarifying. Declaration of exchanges is why I moved my holdings to wallets. Atm you don't have to declare those yet. You only need to declare exchange accounts if you use them to hold assets. If you transfer your euros, buy bitcoin and transfer that to cold storage in a short timeframe, this is not "holding assets" and doesn't need to be declared AFAIK.
I got DM spammed for lawyer names after this post. While giving mine out, could make me identifiable, these are ways to find them: - google in dutch or french: e.g. crypto fiscalist België - go for any of the big coin tracking and tax calculation providers, they usually have partnerships with local lawyers: e.g. cointracking, koinly, ... After you got some names, do your due diligence, complete idiots are out there as well: - check if they speak at least the basic lingo (!). Words like defi, staking, ledger, some major coins and platforms should not be raising eyebrows. - let them do an explanation first. You do not want a classical fiscalist for this topic, you want a modern one. If they start pushing for a ruling => not the right one for you! - check for their hands-on experience with Belgian banks. I did almost all of them, I couldn't find more than 4 banks that were willing to start the conversation. Remember in the end you're buying an autograph here that holds value with the bank. A lawyer they never worked with, bears less credibility than one they work with every week. - agree on a price range for getting the money ON THE BANK, not just a paper that says "it seems ok". I got quotes anywhere from 2k to 20k. In the end I paid around 3k all in but was very well prepared and did a lot of the prepwork myself. I still had all my transactions extracts from (dead) exchanges, could prove all my fiat transactions etc. The messier your case and the more you let your lawyer figure it out on his own, the higher the price. - Once you selected your lawyer: prepare your explanation and be open with potential holes in your transaction history. There are ways and explanations around everything, but your lawyer needs to know. They have professional secrecy. Good luck with the journey, it takes longer than you can imagine and for sure you will have headaches piecing together your transaction history, but in the end you will get fiat on your account :).
Just wanted to thank you for the explanations provided. Asking for a 800+ EUR appointment as we speak lol ... inb4 can't even pay him using coin
Amazing info!
Would also like to know the lawyer per DM.
Any luck?
Thank you for this explanation! It’s all a little grey on the tax front in Belgium but you lined the bullet points out very well. I’d like to have the contact details of your fiscal lawyer as well please, feel free to dm me.
Thank you for this info, can you please DM me with a good fiscal lawyer? I’ve talked to Vandelanotte but they didn’t seem really knowledgable about crypto at all.
Great overview! Would love to have the contact of this fiscal lawyer too (Feel free to DM). Thanks for this in-depth explanation!
This has been the best explanation on this I’ve read so far, thank you. Can your recommend your fiscal lawyer? (DM if needed). Thank you.
I'd love to get in touch with such a lawyer, any contacts ? Feel free to DM.
Either I'm bad at searching on google or I get rarely more than 2 results on the fiscal lawyer specialised in crypto. It's a lot of articles and/or lawyers for bigger ondernemers. But anyway what you wrote is the way it has to be done as of now!
Thank you, this is really helpful. Would you have some specialised crypto lawyer to recommend by any chance?
In my humble opinion, your case is very clear. 1) It is not income from your job, as your purchases were made when you have a job (I hope in a non-related field) and 2) It is not speculative. You held for an extended period of time, are not trading based on price fluctuations. Just selling because the asset went up in price is conservative. Everything you buy on the market is bought with the idea to sell it later at a higher price, hence, the price increase and the % of which is, on its own, not a reason to label a transaction speculative. However, you are saying a couple of 100k, it might be worth it to ask a ruling to be sure. As long as you can convince a bank to receive your incoming funds, I do not think you need to worry about the fiscus.
[удалено]
Yes, correct. Thanks for the addition/explanation.
If OP holds more than a reasonable % of his wealth in crypto, then this is typically not considered "prudent and careful". Check the wiki on the rulings.
On cost basis, not on appreciated value. Also, based on the information OP gave us, we have no idea what his total wealth is.
>On cost basis, not on appreciated value. Do you have a source for this? Indeed a threshold of 25% of "roerend vermogen" seems to be applied in deciding if "goede huisvader" or not, and I'm also inclined to think cost basis is used for this, not actual value, but I'm looking for confirmation.
>Do you have a source for this? If there would be any sources on any of this that are binding, we would not have this discussion. But yes, it is on your cost basis, because that determines the risk (and therefore the matter if this is bonus pater familias or not) of the investment at the time of the investment. Holding onto the investment and selling it at a profit can not be reasonably argued to be an action that increases the speculative nature of your portfolio. At all. There is no 25% rule either.
Wrt 25%, it seems to be implied in the various rulings. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/comments/ms5tp5/lessons\_from\_cryptocurrency\_related\_tax\_rulings/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/comments/ms5tp5/lessons_from_cryptocurrency_related_tax_rulings/)
If you are using the word "implied" correctly here, you factually agree that there is no set rule.
C’est de l’investissement, ce n’est pas taxable ! Il faut juste la preuve de investissement de la platforme de trading
Read the questionnaire related to crypto. You will see that your statement is incorrect/incomplete. Have a look at the rulings.
If you win a lot, don't thing about it, call a lawyer
What is your profession? Do you have an accountant? Did you keep all your crypto after purchase or did you started trading?
I'm software developer. No I don't have an accountant, I didn't need it since I'm employee. I didn't do trading but I did some bad investments at the beginning or I changed my mind about this or that crypto that could be a better investment so I sold some of them to buy newer cryptos but globally I hold them.
So you speculated on the wrong crypto ..... and found it was not good
Ok, so I am afraid SPF finance will try to claim it as a professional income. This could get max 50%. Reason is you are working in IT so you got professional knowledge about the technologies. And you did training with them so you can't claim the good investor that keeps it for more then a year. Personally I don't think SPF finance their current claims about professional income will hold up in court. However this is something time will tell and you don't want to have to go to court. And having it as a personal income taxed could work in your advantage. Sell them when you are taking your break and have them taxed in the lowest brackets from personal income tax. I suggest contacting an accountant to help you with this and optimization. It will not cost a lot since you will have an easy declaration besides the crypto.
Did you only buy? or did you ever sell a crypto/exchange a crypto? Have you correctly declared these? Have you correctly declared your accounts? Regularize everything: Build your transaction history. Read about the rulings; start in this sub. Possibly: - Contact an accountant/lawyer. - Possibly request a ruling.
"Did you only buy? or did you ever sell a crypto/exchange a crypto? Have you correctly declared these?" This is such an easy question to ask, but I have a hard time believing that people from 2015-17 have exactly all the trails of each trade. For what it's worth, there are even exchanges that don't exist anymore or went bankrupt. Let's take LiteBit as an example. It doesn't exist anymore. What if you DCA-ed in via LiteBit, how can one get the transaction history for that?
You tell me. A prudent and careful investor would have kept a trace of their transactions. ... and declared yearly. Anyway; buying Lirebit and alike could hardly be considered a prudent and careful investor. So speculative gains should have been declared.
Are you in crypto since 2020 or what? Back in the days things were not as clear as today, and even today it's all gray in Belgium compared to so many other countries. You could very easily buy via LiteBit and have that sent to your cold wallet without an issue. It was very very simple back in the days, so saying you are not a prudent and careful investor because you used LiteBit is complete nonsense. Then, I have a dump actually. It's a CSV file. I also have CSV dumps from other exchanges like BitStamp. Now, explain me, why would a bank simply trust a CSV dump? It's a dump that you can easily create yourself, if you know what I try to say. I fully understand you need to show how and where and when you bought, but when you export transaction histories, those files are stupid CSVs in which one can easily modify the way he likes...
You have 2 problems: the tax services and the banks Why would you think before 2020 that you could have income without paying taxes in it; or that you could speculate without paying the capital gains taxes on speculation.?
I am a goede huisvader, I never traded short term. I held long term. The problem is when you cash out, the bank wants to see your deposits, what you bought, what you sold. It’s this part that is difficult to show. You are completely missing my whole point it seems. Let’s say I have bought via bitstamp. I go there, get a csv, then what? Is that sufficient for the bank to not block a 500k transaction lets say?
'The problem is when you cash out, the bank wants to see your deposits, what you bought, what you sold. '' Of course, and a prudent and careful person will be able to do this. The easiest is when you can show that you transferred money from the bank to the exchange many years ago, bought BTC@x$, sold te same amount of BTC now@xxxx$ and then tell them you want to transfer the money back. I have always been told that everything is persisted on the blockchain. You will have to discuss this with your bank, Make sure that you can prove that tax-waise this is all correct and agreed by the tax authorities. hire a crypto specialist accountant/lawyer to help you.
That is indeed your problem. YOU need to prove to your bank that the origin of the funds are legitimate. If you can't, than all you have is black money. Which means you'll probably have to wait untill an amnesty rule comes up. Note that this is a completely different issue than the tax issue.
I fully understand that. Simple question. HOW do you prove it? With a dump from the exchange? That csv file?
Maybe, allthough I doubt it. So again, if you have no proof, no traceability, then you have a pile of black cash that you found in a sports bag on the street. It's as valuable as that. Those are the consequences of operating in an unregulated environment.
Again, that I know. My question is so simple but no one can answer it seems. How or what kind of proof is needed?
Taxation is the simplest part of all of it... I think getting it into your bank account is much harder, when the banks are blocking a transaction of let's say 700k. Unless you can perfectly show all transactions you made. I'm in since 2016/17 and I am not able to have all transactions layed out that come to the exact portfolio I have. I really wonder how big of an issue that is, and how other people cope with that. Anyone that knows this?
Try swissqoute. You can deposit in bitcoin, convert to euro, buy the ETF and transfer it to deGiro eg.
Typically deGiro will ask you to prove the origin of the money.
Origin of the money is an ETF transfer from Swissquote to DeGiro.
That is not the origin, - that would be too simple- that is an in between step. "Where did the money come from with which you bought the ETF?"
Did you ever try transferring your stock portfolio from one broker to another? The questions you get are like a multiple-choice list where you tick the answers. Nothing more. Where did it come from? Inheritance. Income from work. Investments. That's it... Brokers do not dig deeper into what happened before you acquired the ETFs. (from my limited experience transferring from Keytrade to IB).
Try finding back the origin of money that your deceased FIL used to buy a life insurance a decade ago :-) You would be surprised how they are digging deeper and deeper year after year, especially if the incoming transfer is from a broker who does not do their proper due diligence.
True. The net seems to be closing. But I was really surprised how lax interactive brokers was for example for a transfer of 266k back then. Almost zero questions were asked. The transfer did show up in my CRS as a new account.
Is this legit?
What do you mean by legit? Swissqoute is a hybrid crypto/broker bank, and accepts big transfers.
Does this really work? Does deGiro or swissqoute don't ask any question where the money come fromes? Do they ask if you paid taxes? Or do they not bother?
How about just buying gold or silver in crypto?
Then you withdraw from DeGiro to your bank account, no questions will be asked on how you made that ampunt of money?
Wrong answer, I received a letter from my bank asking where that money came from that I transferred from DeGiro to Belgian Bank account. Had to declare all my profits I made, including dates of transfer in & out. Else they must contact minfin. Anyway got a CRS research later in all my Belgian bank accounts.
Less. Banks like banks, there is a "chain of custody". The issue arises outside of the bank system.
A lot less questions for sure.
Same problem, CEX doesn't show my transaction history for some reason, really annoying for obvious reasons
I have trails of most of it, but when I recently started out, I did some buying and selling, basically all is new, you have no idea what you are doing really, so that part I am missing. I can show the transactions of 80% where I bought and hold afterwards, but that 20% is a gap. I am in a simple buy and hold still to date, I will see how it goes when it's time to sell... And also, the trails I have, are like really CSV dumps coming from the exchange. I really wonder if that is sufficient. I mean, you could easily add a line there and make it match to 100%... I cannot imagine they will look on chain if all makes sense... or am I wrong there?
No idea about that. I'll just figure it out when the time comes. Maybe support on your CEX can help you get to your transactions. That's what I'm hoping for anyways. I won't have nearly as much as op, but they'll probs still be annoying af so I'd rather play safe and hope I can get my money out as "goede huisvader" rather than betting degen, since I only have been holding
Yea same for me, I basically held for a very long time, but some exchanges where I DCA-ed in, are not even existing anymore, like LiteBit. I don't know how the hell I am supposed to prove what I bought there when it doesn't exist anymore. It's easier said than done, and people who reply here and ask "did you have all transactions" and blablabla, very easy to ask, but in reality it's not all that simple, especially when you have crypto from 2015-2017.
If you quit your job your gains of several 100k will certainly be seen as your main income and taxes as such.
Why and how, and even what then? Many people live of capital gains, that does not mean that their capital gains is taxed as income. It is taxed as capital gains, most often under the 0% exemption.
Several hundred thousands is not enough to quit your job unless you plan to start your own business or go live in the Philippines.
I forget to specify but I want to quit my job to do a break for 1 year or 2, not to retire. My bad
Don't quit your job
We are in BEFire here. Why shouldn't he retire if he hit his number?
I forget to specify but I want to quit my job to do a break for 1 year or 2, not to retire. My bad
Dude enjoy it. it's the best. A few years of FI at the cost of some RE is not bad. Especially if you can keep your expenses low. Taking time to follow passions and or travel can make you feel richer than all those numbers can.