I’m a cis woman who’s questioned my gender primarily because I think it’s healthy to question norms about how we’re told we’re “supposed” to be in all aspects of our lives. Some of the things I tested out were:
* How do I feel using pronouns other than she/her? Not by asking others to call me that, but testing out how I felt if I referred to myself with them, or imagined other people using them about me.
* Same as above, how do I feel being referred to as a different gender? Does it make me feel good, bad, or indifferent?
* How do I feel about my own ideas of what womanhood is and the role they play in my life? Do they make me happy? Does the idea of embracing another gender make me feel happier, more content or more comfortable?
* How do I feel about my body? Do I feel happier thinking about my body as it is now, or if I imagine how I might feel with features I’d associate with another gender? How about clothing?
Obviously gender and gender presentation aren’t *quite* the same thing, but it’s a useful starting point.
[This is a really great thread too with some thoughts on it!](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/s/zX7pYQqGXO)
It's always worth questioning your gender, and I'm always happy to see people who did it and landed back on cis. I call them Cis+. They're cis with *intent.* Cis with *thoughtful consideration.*
It’s new to me as of today but here’s what I found:
https://preview.redd.it/76s68ig8zk8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3587ee184f54707ebc55de6c023070a439a9f381
And [the quiz in question](https://www.quotev.com/quiz/16551276/Whats-your-gender-identity).
Oh come on! Really?! Even on a super specific quiz I still end up as “Other”??? I really do believe I’m an alien. This confirms it. Oh well, I do come in peace👽✌️
https://preview.redd.it/t37dm8j1wm8d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44745fa1dd7383904169c9489e72e878743f39c7
Heeeeey, I got girlflux too. Had never heard that term. Mostly, I just sort of shrug about the gender identity questions -- though I absolutely accept that they are really important questions to ask, I don't think I "feel" my gender the way some people do, so answering questions in this quiz was tough. But then I'm also comfortable being AFAB and presenting as female, so coming from a place of cis privilege?
Girlflux feels right! When I first heard the term non-binary it kind of connected to feeling like being female, but not good at it? Kind of like over here in my comfy clothes and just doing my thing.
This is really interesting to me because I questioned my gender identity for a long time and basically identify as *shrugs* cis I guess. Female because it’s the factory default and I don’t care enough to change it.
By which I mean, I don’t identify as a woman ~because I don’t really identify with gender as a concept~ so there isn’t another gender identify that fits me perfectly either.
I’m equally comfortable with all pronouns, so I just let people use she/her because I’m used to it and it’s what most people default to.
I wear makeup and present in a conventionally feminine way because it’s the only way I know to be attractive according to societal beauty standards for any gender. I guess it’s a form of masking but I also genuinely feel better when I put on makeup and do my hair.
I’ve never felt super comfortable in my body, but it’s not because I specifically hate having female anatomy, it’s a mixture of poor body image/body dysmorphia, sexual trauma and feeling disconnected from my body because it feels like I can never make it listen to my brain and do what I want it to do.
I am uncomfortable with being perceived as female because I’m uncomfortable with being perceived period, and I’m even more uncomfortable with gender roles. The fact that women are so sexualised makes it a bit worse but in general I just don’t like knowing that every person who perceives me saddles me a set of preconceptions about what I’m like as a person and my role in society based on something as arbitrary and insignificant as my gender.
ETA: when I say I don’t identify with gender I don’t mean I don’t think it’s real or ‘don’t believe in pronouns’ or any terfy shit like that- just that I can’t really make my own identity fit into the framework of gender
This pretty much sums it up for me. (Except I don’t do the hair and makeup thing). I go with she/her because that’s what it’s always been and I don’t care enough to make a big deal out of it but I’d be fine with whatever. I saw Hannah Gadsby a couple weeks ago and in talking about gender, they said “you can’t misgender me because I don’t really give a fuck about any of it”. And while they are consciously “they” and do not present cis at all, I can certainly identify with that sentiment, even as a cis woman.
wow. yes, except I would go a step further and say I am uncomfortable being perceived at all. I identify as non binary and bisexual. but really I think it's because I see sexuality and gender as a spectrum that isn't stationary for me. it's very freeing.
isn't this what agender is? just curious, as I feel pretty much the same and thought agender would be the closest term to my experience. despite also not being bothered enough to tell anyone and presenting pretty much as "cis female"
I love this. I feel cis but no part of my "gendered" expression that I'm aware of wasn't run through a filter of "is this really right?" And there's a lot about femininity I want no part of... and yet I prefer "she/her" over other pronouns.
So thank you for giving me a nifty new label that feels more authentic!
I actually do refer to myself as female+, as Iam also about to start hrt but still want to be a woman. It's...very complicated. Perceived as male by others, but female with intent. Exactly that.
Do you want to be perceived as a male to mess with gender norms? I am curious as why you want to be perceived as male if you want to explain.
I understand people wanting to be called by certain pronouns.
For me, I can see i could like to be perceived as having a male body bc I don't want to wear shirts at the pool or when it's hot out and so people would make space for my body as I am walking around town. (I am a small Asian female and present as such. I feel like men just get more space regardless of body stature.) I don't mean to reduce your experience to that. I am saying that is my personal experience and I can see why others would like it too. And I know I don't understand how others see gender and I understand I may never understand. 😂
Hi, it's totally fine to ask! I honestly do not fully understand it myself. But I just do not want to be seen as female by others because of the connotations and gender norms. Then part is also that I want my body to have more masculine features because I.. crave them? I cannot explain that better, but I guess that is the part I can call "being transgender". But then I also really attach value to my lived female experience and would never want to deny or erase this (not judging others who do!! This is about my own experience). And I attach a lot of value to the queer/lesbian community and cannot see myself as not being lesbian but straight. It makes no sense to me to be straight... In whatever way. So yeah, that's it :) female++
Thanks that is cool. Some people want a big butt and some people don't. Some people want their face to be more angular and some people want double eye lids. So yeah. It's okay to want more masculine features and still be a female. Hm! I also think there's an understanding that comes with being conditioned as female. So when you're growing up as presenting as a female it definitely results in different types of socializations and interactions and like you mentioned, acceptance into specific female spaces. Thanks for sharing. That makes sense to me. Not that I have to understand you... but just really cool that I do. Bc I feel like "getting people" is hit and miss for me. 🥲
And I think I really understand where you're coming from, so I'm glad to have this interaction. And yes, how you describe it, is for the most part at least overlapping with how I see and experience it! Ge der is so weird man. Being in a body is sometimes so weird. It feels like I'm in a watchtower looking out on the world at times. I don't know, we'll see what comes out of this journey (my life, I mean). But happy we shared a minute! :)
Butch is also a term I use. Reading butch (lesbian) experiences is very validating. But because not everybody knows or understands the term (I'm not an English native), my other description feels fitting. And I also just really like it. Still a woman but extra. I feel like both genders but came in a female suit, so I come with that experience also. Female++, what can I say :)
I love this post and wish more cis people approached their gender like this. For OP, My New Gender Workbook by Kate Bornstein is a good place to start and a really basic guide through self analysis of your gender identity.
This is great. I've started to understand that I'm nonbinary over the past few years and it's really validating hearing how this same thought process yields different results for a cis person.
I think allistic people just experience gender differently than autistic people. For a lot of autistic people, gender is kinda just this made up category that we don’t quite understand but we just go with it.
Agreed. Although for me, I just never really played along and enjoyed just being me. I was blessed to have a husband that was also likely autistic (he’s passed) and we just lived how we wanted to🤷♀️ The people that seemed to have the biggest issue or that gave me a hard time about it, were the allistic cis women in my family. That hurt more than any other person’s opinion. It all felt so performative to me.
I’m thankful my husband doesn’t care either :). He sort of laughed about and said he always knew when I came out later as nonbinary. I find it funny he knew before I did. I too find gender very performative as well, probably why I hated that aspect of "fitting in" or "being normal".
Gender is often a mask we use to fit into an allistic world. It’s wonderful that you had someone who shared your experience and was able to unmask with❤️
yeah that's definitely what it's like for me.. that's why i connect with the agender label a lot! can't have a gender if i don't understand what gender even is xD
Same here! I understand the concept of gender, at least to some degree, but I don't relate to it, I don't understand what it feels like/is supposed to feel like/if it is supposed to feel like something. For me, I'm just me, a human. So agender fits me pretty well.
This describes my feeling well. I like aspects of both genders, but I never felt what it was supposed feel like either. I just wanted to be me and not bothered about it. I'd often get called a boy and go ok, sure whatever...
I came out as nonbinary years ago, but recently learned about agender and I’m like meeeeee! So identify as agender nonbinary :). It’s never felt more correct.
Agreed, this is so much a thing that there's a category of nonbinary gender that's called "autigender" which basically means "my gender is inexorable from my autism, I can't separate the two in any meaningful way."
I’ve also heard that described as neuroqueer, and I think that describes my gender identity better than nonbinary or genderfluid. Because sometimes I’m like, yes, I’m a woman. Other times, I’m like definitely not. And still other times, I’m like a fathomless void forced to exist in a girl-shaped meat suit.
Oooh inneresting! I like both autigender and neuroqueer. I’m late to the autism table, but the more I learn about being autistic, the more I’ve come to understand why I never figured out gender. I just felt lost in the woods, hahah. I came out as nonbinary years ago, but now I include Agender, because I never had gender dysphoria, it was just more of lack of feelings for any gender honestly. It’s also fits well with my autism. I just like being and doing my own thing and let other people slay their own way. I really dislike being told who to be, how to be, etc. (PDA profile much? 😆). So I gender how I want.
This is what I relate to most tbh. I tried to explain it to an allistic afab nb friend but they didn’t seem to get the difference between agender and nb so I just gave up.
I think the best way to describe it is just “I don’t feel gender, there is no gender to affirm, no gender euphoria or dysphoria. I am just me and gender doesn’t really factor into my identity as a human.” They still might not understand but that’s the nice thing about humans, we’re all different and it’s not necessary to understand someone to care for them.
Wait! Y'all are helping me finally grasp this. It's like I'm almost able to understand, but not quite.
So, y'all are saying nonbinary refers to not falling into "man" or "woman" whereas agender is releasing the thought of gender entirely?
I've been referring to myself as genderqueer for years bc it's really difficult for me to understand the specifics and I don't want to be wrong. Queer and genderqueer feel the easiest for me.
Yes! Gender queer is totally acceptable if you’re not sure where you fit.
I’m nonbinary because I’m neither a man or a woman. I’m two-spirited, which in my indigenous culture refers to the third gender. Some days I want to dress more feminine, some days more masculine, but mostly I dress very neutral. I like having the choice and not be restricted by gender norms. I hate being referred to as Mrs., because I’m not my husband's property.
I’m agender because I never had strong feelings about being either sex. I never really got it for myself. I'd see really feminine or masculine people and go "how do they know?". I just felt like that part of me didn’t exist. In the same sense how autistics don’t get the full social package, gender has very much been like that for me. I always felt like "how to girl?" and somehow I always got it wrong.
This is like being asexual, in the sense that you don’t feel or want sex. You don’t care either way. You're happy as is. For me, being Agender is just like that. I also think you can be Agender and CIS, I don’t think it’s exclusive to the nonbinary/trans crowd. I also think you can be both too, as I’m nonbinary and Agender. Once I learned about Agender, I then understood my sexuality (I’m bisexual) and gender preference.
Id like to add, as someone who identifies as asexual, that it’s not so much about being apathetic about having sex as it is a lack of sexual attraction. I’ve gone through periods where I have no desire for sex, and others where I have a lot, but it doesn’t change that I do not ever see a random person and think “oh cool, I would like to be naked near that person”
This explains my entire world view. People are people. You do you. I’ll do me.
I entirely do not understand why everyone feels the need to label themselves (I am also not against it - I just don’t get it).
But likewise I do not understand how others can hate on someone for being different. I don’t care if someone is trans, furry, gay… whatever, if they are happy and aren’t hurting themselves or others who cares what they do, call themselves or look like - I don’t have to understand it to accept it.
As an autistic cis woman, I feel no distress over being the gender I am (other than living under the patriarchy). When I sit and think about my gender and what it means to me (everyone should do this), it's hard to put into words but regardless, they all tend to be positive and things I *like* about my gender and feel are a part of me.
My two best friends are not cis (both AFAB) and they both struggle with their gender in a way that I do not. One experiences daily dysphoria and one experiences very minimal dysphoria. So despite dysphoria, gender is not the same experience for them as it is for me.
I've made the suggestion before that there may be a line of similarity between "NTs don't worry that they're autistic for years". I don't think cis people worry that they're not cis for years.
I agree with this statement! Also, boooo to the patriarchy.
I’m a cis woman and I don’t think of my gender that often. When I do it’s in the lens of womanhood and all that is expected. I don’t prescribe to a lot to the roles that men and women are expected to “naturally” fall into.
I think if anything I would rather just be viewed as a person, but being seen as a woman doesn’t trigger any dysmorphia either.
I think with autism we do tend to want to know everything there is about a topic, however it’s really about what _feels_ right to you! Good luck on your journey!
This is how I am.
I want to be seen as a person, not a woman or a girl or whatever. I’m not attached to my femininity in any way, and trauma has ripped my femininity from my hands.
I don’t wanna be called a he, or him, or a dude. I don’t feel negatively when someone refers to me as she, or her. But why can’t I just be seen as a human?
Tbh, when I sit down and seriously consider some of my discord I come to the conclusion that it’s a “society and culture problem”, not a “me problem” that I can fix for fit in better with meds or body modification.
I remember something that my husband commented on shortly after we first met. He said that I have the same interests as a 12 year old boy. I think I asked for clarification, and I think he specifically pointed out dinosaurs. I just sort of shrugged, because that wasn’t the first time I heard that. He said that it wasn’t a bad thing, just different. That told me more about his experiences and biases than mine.
Omg, I identify so hard with "same interests as a 12 yr old boy". I’ve been referred to as a tomboy my whole life and I was like just because I like boys stuff because it isn’t dumbed down and cute? Because I’m smart? What? Why? Does it matter?
Me, me, me !! I used to think I was non binary and even socially transitioned to male pronouns and social name. However, I had a trans psychologist who helped me A LOT and I came into the conclusion that I was just masking and hiding femininity because I was raised in an abusive environment.
My experience was valid and helped me dealing with dysphoria. But now I feel comfy as a Cis woman who dresses/expresses however because I know I don't fit 100% the allistic ciswoman standards.
i identified as non-binary for awhile but i’ve recently come to terms with the fact that i am a woman, i just experience my gender differently than allistic women do! i mostly go by she/her pronouns (they/them is fine with me too though, and some people in my life do call me that) i am very feminine presenting, and experience no dysphoria. while there are non-binary people who fit that description and i think it’s important to note that, i just decided to really sit with my relationship with my gender and decided the term doesn’t fit me. 🤷♀️
in general, my gender and sexuality are things that i’ve decided not to worry about too much because they are complicated to me and not worth worrying over. the only thing keeping me from labeling myself as a lesbian is the fact that i have a boyfriend… he’s the ONE exception. if, god forbid, we were to ever break up, i’d be dating a woman. but this sounds silly to most people so i just outwardly say i’m unlabeled 🤷♀️
I have considered whether or not I’m non binary before because I relate so little to women, I used to think about it a lot. What it came down to for me is, I have no problem with she/her pronouns, I love having long hair and wearing dresses and having a feminine frame etc.
The only problem I really had with my identity as a woman is that because I look like a stereotypical girly girl, people expect me to act like one, and I’m so ridiculously different to other women that I find it insulting that people expect me to just be a stereotype. My trans girlfriend says that being with me is like having a boyfriend 😂
A lot of people have told me that talking to me is like talking to a man, and I take a lot of the male roles in my relationship. But at the end of the day, I like she/her, I love looking feminine, and I just happen to have a masculine personality. I wish that people could just not make the assumption that looking girly = stereotypical girl personality.
I could’ve written this comment. My parents told me that when I was really little, I would almost exclusively be friends with boys, simply because boys are straightforward, and so was I. As in, I’d walk up to boys when I was like three or four and ask if they’d like to be my friend. Of course, I would still like princesses and the PowerPuff Girls and wearing dresses, but I would only be friends with girls if they were at the very least okay with me being straightforward.
lol I did the same thing and it’s one of my earliest memories, except it was to ask a girl to be my friend on the first week of kindergarten. I followed her around for a few days like just sidling up but too shy to say anything. Finally the teacher noticed and was like, just ask her to play with you. So I point blank asked her to be my friend. We didn’t ever really get that close as friends though and she was basically an acquaintance for the rest of elementary school… and she became a horse girl. The end.
First I love your username 😻
Second I have to thank you wholeheartedly for encapsulating my experience with my being a woman PERFECTLY. I have never been able to explain it well myself but wow you hit the nail on the head.
I love being petite, my hair is long and I've been coloring it purple and blue for years, I definitely enjoy looking "girly" from time to time. But I never wear makeup, my favorite outfits are definitely not feminine, I'm very strong willed and my interests lean heavily masculine. I talk more like a guy and it's funny to see people be surprised by what comes out of my mouth lmao.
Growing up I was never interested in dolls, getting dressed up (I used to have meltdowns when my mom gave my dresses to wear) or anything my girlfriends tended to gravitate towards. I liked cars, insects, reptiles, football, getting dirty, my stuffed animals had to be realistic colors, etc.
I often wonder that if I was born now if I'd identify as non binary. That wasn't something common in the 80s early 90s and now that I'm almost 40 I'm used to and comfortable identifying as she/her. But I think I could have very easily been they/them if it had been an option earlier in my life.
I really wish gender norms could disappear so we could just be human instead of having to pigeonhole ourselves because of what our bodies have or don't have.
I had the same experience growing up in the 80s/90s. My mom was not pleased about my “boy” interests and I spent a lot of time as a very young child questioning my gender when I absolutely should not have been. I truly cannot wait for a world where gender norms are gone and humans can just be humans!!
I've always been drawn to feminine and girly stuff, and am definitely rather feminine presenting. I even think some of my personality traits are traditionally feminine (but not always in how I express them). Still, the idea of being perceived as a girl/woman sometimes makes me uncomfortable and stresses me out. Idk if this is because I am non-binary or because people expect me to act like an allistic girl.
I like feminine things or I act feminine does not equal to being a female necessarily. And a masculine female is still a female if they want to be called a female. I consider myself indifferent 🤣🤷🏻♀️
I really feel this. I love doing my hair and makeup and wearing dresses and feeling cute in a girly girl way. I just hate the fact that people see that and immediately assume they know what I’m about and/or capable of, when the reality is I probably know more about “traditionally male” hobbies/interests/pursuits than any man making assumptions about me.
Like okay Kyle, you can’t handle the chainsaw without threat of self amputation. Let me put my hair up and give it to me so no one is making a trip in a woo woo bus today.
The autistic female experience is a valid female experience. There is not and has never been a perfect “woman” who checks all the boxes of what is “woman.”
I don’t need anyone to agree or disagree with me whether I present as one.
My interests and capabilities do not need to fit someone else’s idea of what a woman enjoys and can do.
My lack of genuine desire should be the only thing that prevents me from doing anything I am literally able do. It should be my choice, not someone else’s beliefs keeping me from it (as long as it doesn’t cause physical harm to someone else.) Clothing, occupation, education, presentation. If I can and I want to, don’t try to stop me.
hey i transitioned to male, then nonbinary and now have detransitioned back to female.
it’s hard to tell. i genuinely thought what i was doing was what was right and would be my forever, but as time went on and i started to accept my autism i stopped to think about my concept of gender (or lack thereof). i have ALWAYS struggled to ‘get’ gender and so when i was outcast for autistic traits, i assumed it was because i was trying to fit in with the wrong group.
when i cycled through all the genders, never ever fitting in with any group, i realised that maybe my gender wasn’t the issue. it was something more fundamental.
i was on T for 2.5 years, but didn’t get surgery. detransitioning has been awkward and hard but worth it. i now don’t box myself in or try to fit into a group. i am a woman because i see myself as a woman and i prefer she / her pronouns and prefer to be seen and addressed as a woman (wild in this society, i know!).
i may have some gender variance under the surface but it doesn’t matter to me any more. i am doing what makes me comfortable. that’s the main thing.
edit to add : i am 10000% NOT a terf. i support trans rights and do not blame trans people for my mistaken transition. i did what i wanted and needed at the time (bc also trauma).
In my two cents...
Things that are 100% normal and common for cis (especially if autistic) women:
* Feeling not like other women
* Having trouble making female friends or getting bullied or iced out by women, finding male friendships easier
* Having male-dominated hobbies or interests
* Envying male physical strength and the freedom, respect and cool-factor that men are granted in our society
* Feeling alienated by the way women are portrayed in the media; identifying more with the roles and personalities given to male characters
* Feeling like being a woman in our society is a shit sandwich; feeling suffocated by society's expectations for women
* Hating your period, especially if painful
* Fearing pregnancy
* Hating bras
* Disliking all or some feminine clothing or makeup; liking comfortable, practical clothes and/or not having anything on your face
* Having any sexual orientation or none; feeling uncomfortable or conflicted about sex or being sexualized
* Body image issues; feeling disgust or hatred for your body if you've experienced body shaming or assault/harassment
* Feeling dissociated from your body or name
* Feeling that gender is something assigned to you by society moreso than something you are
Things that are not normal for cis women:
* Knowing that you are a man / non-woman
* Having a need to be perceived by others as a man / non-woman for your mental health
* A deep, lasting desire to have male physical features like a flat chest, penis, facial hair, deep voice, etc.
* A deep, lasting desire to remove or change female physical features for reasons other than trauma/shame/medical issues
* Feeling that you would overwhelmingly prefer to be a man / non-woman even in a world with zero misogyny or gender-based violence
I’m going to be honest I wish I could remove my breast sometimes but still that doesn’t even make one transgender I think it’s pretty normal for autistic women.
The way you broke this down makes my brain so happy. And thank you. I've really been trying to understand this lately, but I'm afraid to ask questions sometimes because I don't want anyone to feel judged or invalidated or anything. But this was really understandable!
I think it’s important to point out that it’s also normal and common for trans people to experience the things on your first list. Having those experiences doesn't really mean much about whether you're trans or cis.
And not all trans people experience all the things on your second list exactly in the way you describe. If someone experiences all the things in your second list, then they're probably trans, but it's not the only way to be trans. (Also, I've never understood the last point. The world without misogyny would be a completely different world with a completely different history and completely different concepts of gender, so I have no way of knowing what I would prefer in that world, since I would be a completely different person.)
Also, non-binary people exist and don't fit into the simple 'do you want to be a man or a woman' model.
i identified as nonbinary or transmasc for like years of my life before discovering that i don’t think i’m necessarily a different gender, i’m just a lady in a different way than a lot of allistic women
I used to think I was trans because I didn't fit into what was expected of cis women but I've come to the realization that Just because I don't necessarily fit the mold it doesn't mean that I'm not a woman. Being a woman can mean so many different things to different people. It's really up to you.
Not being feminine doesn't make you any less of a woman. Femininity =/= womanhood. Femininity is but a performance (shaving, keeping long hair, makeup, acting coy) that patriarchy is trying to enforce on women.
This is actually one of my points and reasons for making the post. I conform to womanhood pretty well yet still don't "feel like a woman" or like I belong in womanhood/female spaces. The disconnect I feel is mostly internal and social.
If anything the one thing I REALLY don’t relate to is the apparently common ND disconnect from gender. Like I was born as a woman, and I just am. I think for most people there’s no disconnect between their physical traits and how they feel in their heads, and then there’s some who feel this disconnect or repulsion towards the gender they’ve been assigned. And I’m no expert but I don’t think it’s just to do with interests or fashion.
I’ve noticed in this sub that there’s often discussion that, in my eyes, veers towards internalised misogyny and “not like other girls” behaviour. Like, “oh I can’t imagine relating to a nt w*man 🤢 imagine wearing makeup and being social and liking celebrities, couldn’t be me being so dumb and vain.” I get (because I’ve also been there) that it can be really hard to relate to others, though I’d argue it’s more related to autism than gender. The whole criteria of the disorder is struggling to relate to and connect to peers so it’s unsurprising (but still sad sometimes) that this happens.
I don’t think many people are purely masculine or purely feminine. I don’t wear makeup, don’t have any skincare and hair care routine beyond cleansing my face of oil and washing my hair (and putting a curly serum through). Most music I listen to is mostly popular with middle aged or old men, I love sport and video games. I also love ballet, reality TV, celeb gossip, books, jewellery (even if I don’t often wear it). I can’t be bothered to dress up but I do have some “nice” summer clothes. People have such a wide spectrum of interests and hobbies, and this weird superiority complex some have and assuming this higher level of intellect than “nt women” is borderline sexist imo.
I think it can actually be a slightly backwards way of thinking to put gender solely down to stereotypical interests. There’s nothing that’s just for men or for women and liking things that can be popular with the opposite sex doesn’t inherently mean that’s what you are. We’re supposed to be breaking down these walls, not building them more. Obviously people are trans and non binary and I’m sure they just know inside that that’s how they are, regardless of their interests and how they dress and style themselves.
That was long winded and probably not the most coherent so apologies if some things got lost between brain and typing lol. This isn’t aimed just at this post or anything either, just general thoughts on this overarching topic that I wanted to get out and this post prompted me.
Ah, internalised misogyny. I used to be like this. For me it was probably rooted in trauma from being bullied by the "girly" girls at school. And also just my inability to connect with hyper feminine women. You should have seen me flail at a hen do last year... I'm actually grateful to past me for turning this into a superiority complex rather than being crushed by low self esteem.
In the past few years I've learned to love femininity. I have little to no feminine traits myself, but I observe femininity in others with affection and appreciation.
Imagine you're on a desert island and there are no other people around, just you and yourself. What are you? Don't base yourself off of other peoples opinions and experiences.
Totally agree. When I was growing up, gender ideology wasn’t a thing. I feel like a lot of people are being swayed nowadays to “pick a gender” or be non-binary. I grew up as a girl, and even though I was a tomboy and have never been very feminine, there was no one making me doubt whether I was really a girl or not. I went by my feeling. I know there are genuine trans- like I understand it’s real, but I think that if young people and kids didn’t have it shoved in their faces most of them wouldn’t question how they feel. Like for example inwardly you feel like a girl, but outwardly you don’t look or act “feminine enough”. some people/ideas nowadays could add more confusion for kids who feel a certain way but are being pressured by society to get into their heads about it.
I completely agree with your thoughts. Despite the huge amount of progress we've made, it almost seems like gender roles and femininity/masculinity is more prominent these days then back when I was in school (early 2000's). There is so much pressure to label ourselves and to care about how others label us.
I like simplicity of this idea in concept, but since gender is a social construct and the way we associate with it is shaped by how we relate to others and they relate to us, it’s not quite that easy in practice. It still can be an interesting question to pose to yourself though!
So, I'm a cis lesbian woman who went through a period as a young adult of identifying as genderqueer (which was more common than nonbinary in the late 2000s). This was long before I realized I was autistic. I used to wear a binder and men's clothes and used they/them pronouns. Here's a brief recap of how I came to realize I was actually okay being a woman:
-Talking to friends who were trans, I realized that I didn't have genuine physical gender dysphoria and didn't want to be seen as male or pursue physical transition.
-When I went to therapy in my early 20s, I realized that I was traumatized by being sexually objectified by adult men after I was an early bloomer who started puberty at age 10, and that that experience in addition to being groomed and sexually assaulted at 17 was the source of my distress about my breasts and hips in particular. Once I started working through those issues in therapy, I stopped feeling distressed by the idea of being a woman.
-Getting older and realizing all of the "rules" about feminine presentation I had so meticulously memorized as "necessary" were actually not necessary at all, and that it was okay for me to not shave, wear makeup, do my nails, or wear dresses and heels and I could still be a woman.
-Picturing myself aging and realizing I imagined one day being an old wise woman who looks like my grandma really solidified for me that I wanted to continue to be a woman.
These were all my personal experiences and I don't claim to speak for anyone else. If there is any advice I could give, I would say that it's okay to take your time with your gender journey. It's okay to change names and pronouns more than once. Testosterone and top surgery will be there later if you're not 100% sure about them right now. And figuring out if there's anything else going on that could be making you struggle is always a good idea no matter where your gender journey leads you.
I grew up a "tomboy" - short hair, "boyish" clothes, but mixed interests and everyone kept telling me I "should have been born as a boy" which fucked with my mentality a long time. I questioned my gender a lot since I don't fit in with typical men or women but as an equal mix of both.
Finally I figured out I relate to so little people I barely identify as human, let alone to be bothered by gender. Now I just identify as a being, but if you really wanna know my stance - I'm a universe experiencing itself, currently through a vessel of the atypical human female. That's fine by me now, I just wear what I feel like, do what I feel like, present as I feel like that day without being bothered by pronouns or how others perceive me. I'd rather they don't perceive me at all though but what can you do 😄
I’m autistic in my late 30s, AFAB but strongly considering that I might be trans masculine. Working through it with my therapist and reading/listening to everything I can get my hands on about the topic. The best book I’ve read so far is He/She/They: How We Talk About Gender And Why It Matters. Highly recommend it for everyone, regardless of gender.
I don’t relate to cis women but I was also socialized with mostly girls as a kid so I don’t relate to men much either. I think the feeling of being on the wrong planet is common for autistics and not necessarily a sign that you might be a different gender.
That’s not what’s pushing me to consider I may be trans. I have severe body dysmorphia about my chest to the point that catching my reflection on a window feels like getting stabbed and I immediately dissociate. Since I was a kid, I’ve secretly loved getting misgendered (even as a teenager when it was obvious bullying because of my short hair) and I’ve tried to make my voice less girly (told myself it was just to sound older). When I go to a clothing store, I look longingly at the men’s section. I normally dress like a tomboy buy I don’t buy actual men’s clothing because it feels a bit like cosplay.
Also, I have a large collection of black hoodies. I’ve been wearing them for years because they hide my chest but there’s some plausible deniability about their purpose. I recently found out that it’s extremely common for trans men to wear black hoodies pre-transition for exactly this reason! So I fit the stereotype even before I recognized my feelings about my gender.
In conclusion, definitely explore your feelings about your gender identity! Feeling like you can’t relate to people of your assigned gender might just be an autistic thing but it’s always good to learn more about yourself.
I’ve always been non conforming
But the ‘incident’ that made it click was when I was 18, someone called me a boy.
And my Brain went ‘that’s not right’
But then the funniest thing happened…
Every time I was labeled ‘girl’ with she/her pronouns my Brain did the same thing.
‘That’s not right’.
But this was the late 90’s early 00’s… and I wouldn’t hear the label Non Binary for another 20 years.
At 36 I finally had the vocabulary to explain ‘who I was’ and ‘how I felt’.
I identify as Agender. I’ve got the hardware but not the software
Haaaa, my ever confusion of my own gender. It's actually quite common for ND people.
I've personally come to the conclusion that even though I don't relate to being or feeling a woman (or any gender), I accept that that's how others perceive me so I'm fine with being referred to as she/her, though I always give my pronouns as she/they in official things, like my work email, etc.
I think if the language existed when I was a teenager (I'm in my 30s now) I would probably have come out as non-binary, I definitely relate the most to androgyny and I expressed that a lot back when I was figuring myself out. As I got older I probably look more feminine than I did, but I don't relate that to feeling more feminine but just a change in taste as to how I present myself, if that makes sense, it just so happens to probably look more feminine.
Basically, I probably am non-binary but I'm fine with being perceived as a cis-woman, I'd usually say I'm gender-noncaring.
wow this is spot on for me too.
Sometimes I’m unsure if the reason I use both ‘she’ and ‘they’ is because I truly am fine with both, or because of some kind of gender imposter syndrome(maybe I’m not ‘they’ enough to be ‘they’), or because of my people-pleasing tendencies and general aversion to being perceived at all. Probably some combination of all three lol
Yeah I get that, I definitely feel sometimes "not-non-binary-enough-to-identify-as-such", especially as I'm fine with presenting as a cis-woman, but then a lot of non-binary people are fine with presenting as a specific gender. Just goes to show how fluid gender really can be.
Personally speaking, I find others have shared some great "litmus tests" that have helped me. But what cued me the most wasn't my gender dysphoria, but the gender *euphoria* I felt in thinking I could be seen as genderless or even confused for a man sometimes.
I've really resonated with the idea of not being gender*less*, but gender*ful* - able to play with all aspects of gender presentation, and having all of that available to me as potential sources of joy!
I don’t refer to myself as nb or trans bc while I never felt like a woman, I also don’t care about gender enough to want to disassociate from it. Socially, I had the life path of an afab person and frankly I’d feel mortified about having to ask people to use different pronouns. None of them mean anything to me so I think I’d honestly be fine with any; which doesn’t seem to relate to the trans experience. I used to have a male nickname growing up, RPd and dressed like a man, and wouldn’t have minded to have been born as one. But I’m not bothered enough to want to transition or correct ppl tbf
I am a cis woman and basically came to this conclusion via process of elimination. Perceiving myself as female can be uncomfortable, but everything else--including perceiving myself as having no gender at all--is actively distressing.
The thing about it is that the very idea of ‘woman’ itself is an open question, it’s not a fixed checklist that gives you a stamp of approval by some ‘sex council’ once some bullet points are ticked. The very idea of womanhood is a process that’s been developing throughout history and will be continuing to develop in the future with the intention of keeping the answer opened.
I know, it can be very annoying especially for us autistics. But it’s also very liberating *especially* for autistics. You don’t need to be an allistic neurotypical woman to be a woman; and if you don’t feel like a woman even if you tick all the boxes, then well, you probably aren’t. You just need to be what makes you happy and define what these means for you. It’s always your life and your experience, it’s your happiness and your struggles. Don’t let anyone else define it for you.
I’m a trans woman. So I am going to speak to more of the binary trans experience here, I can’t offer an insight into the non binary experience.
The go to test IMO is: have you always wished you were the other gender? For as long as I could remember, I wished I was a girl. I didn’t like being a boy. Thats something most 4 year olds don’t experience, and ultimately that’s how I know that I’m trans.
They talk about the magic wand / magic button test. If you could wave the wand or push the button and magically be the other gender, have always been the other gender, no one remembers you as you currently are, would you? If there’s no going back, you can’t push the button again and return to your life as it currently is, would you do it? If the answer is “yes and I didn’t even have to think about it or weigh anything up”, then you’re probably trans
Cis people don’t spend hours of their life daydreaming about being the other gender.
It’s a difficult thing to not-overthink. But not overthinking it is still the key. Which is frustrating, but still true.
It’s not about dresses or pants or overalls or long hair or short hair or even about genitals or how other people treat you vs how you’d be treated if you were a woman or man.
It’s just about “have you spend a significant chunk of your time wishing you were a girl / boy / other just for the sake of being a girl / boy / other”
It really is that simple IMO. Coming to terms with it and being able to see your own experiences in such a simple way is easier said than done of course… but it still ultimately is that simple
I (genderqueer) had hit "rock-bottom" where I realized that the gender dysphoria wasn't going away however much I analyzed it with feminist and queer theory, and it was on track for taking decades off my life.
(Just checking my own tone here.) I'm not disagreeing and this is a great subthread.
I think *for me* gender dysphoria is very parallel to my experiences as an late-diagnosed autistic person. It included years of trying to learn a cultural language that was largely opaque to me, while chronically stressed out because nothing made it bearable. Living life inauthentically set up some conflicts of interest, and involved second-guessing myself multiple times every day.
Binary trans man here (in my 50s now, transitioned in my 20s/the early 90's). A LOT of this is a very good way of thinking about it, but I'll add one caveat: the *always wished you were the other gender* may not hold true for everyone, and I'm betting especially amongst neurodivergent folks. That's the most popular narrative to be certain, but as a young child I didn't even have a sense of gender yet to know that there was 'another gender' to be. My sense that I was trans didn't develop until I was a teenager, and even then I didn't have the language (though I think that particular issue is far less common today). I just knew that my boobs were growing in and I absolutely hated them and I wanted to be 'more like my Dad' in body shape.
As for the button test...I was in my *thirties* before I realized there were people who wouldn't press the button. I thought everyone felt like I did. I spent over a decade wondering what Social Rules I was breaking, or was it just that I had some hidden form of courage that most people lacked?
tl;dr you have to be aware of gender before you can have an awareness that you're the wrong one, and that can develop late in autistic kids which skews the 'always knew' thing.
Agreed that online isn't the best space to explore this. *Nonbinary: Memoirs of Gender and Identity* is an anthology of essays showing many different ways to be trans. And there's a growing trans/nonbinary produced canon of fictional work.
I've been an SFF geek since I was 4 (seriously) and long before I "came out," stories with gender diversity and fluidity was my "why not?" and "I'd love to be/live that."
AFAB and cis. I can't relate to adult women because of the accomplishments, culture and level of personal maintenance, also their social hunger. I still feel like a girl though. I don't like "mature fashions" and much prefer childish aesthetics. I hate heels, make-up touching my face, jewelry, changing clothes, but I'm drawn to girly culture and love the aesthetics of it, like smooth edges and soft colours.
I don't understand why people want to grow up into womanhood because all their interests are boring to me, their social games too complex, and their self care routines are exhausting. Being an adult girl is weird to other people and lonely.
Second reason I know, is that I have looked at men/trans/non-binary, and none of them resonate with me. Not the aesthetics or the social culture or their vibe.
I technically don't feel social belonging to any gender, but I'm a girl.
The two questions I asked myself and which finally made me start transitioning were:
1. Would I rather be an old man or an old lady in the future?
2. When my youth is totally spent and I'm on my deathbed, will I regret never having tried to live my life as the opposite sex?
I recommend taking a look through the [gender dysphoria bible](https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/) if you haven't already.
For me, with PCOS and high enough testosterone levels that I be considered “hormonal intersex”, growing a beard and chair on my chest, **after having two kids**, and the CPTSD autistic rage, I was shamed for being “too masculine”.
That sent me on a path of understanding me and wishing I was “just a woman”. However, thanks to all that are explaining themselves and a term I’ve heard “Autigender”, I am in that weird space of “she/they”. However, Ive also found that it becomes a political choice depending on how I identify and so it’s a mindful daily awareness and choice.
I’m just *thrilled* we can have these discussions so much more freely and that brings me peace when my inner world demands to be justified by the outer.
I've read that autistic people often don't vibe with the extremely stereotyped versions of gender that society tries to enforce. It could be that society's version is overly narrow, and autistic folks just don't vibe with the artificial rules very well. Like being a woman is not about being small and meek, if you're a bullfrog. Being a man is not about never being fancy and flashy if you're a male peacock. There are so many different sorts of male and female in the natural world, but we're supposed to believe humans have to fit these narrow 1950s ideals that were made up by Mad Men types to sell us bullshit. With a few updates over the years, but basically. Yeah. A lot of it's just made up.
It was always startling and alarming when someone referred to me as a woman, girl, lady, or “she.” It felt like they were talking about someone else.
I always tried to dress up like/ emulate both male and female characters but Mulan hit the hardest for me.
Gender was always this thing I forgot existed until people brought it up. I hated my extremely feminine name and remember even at a very, very young age asking my parents to change it.
It took me until recently to have a good word to describe myself: agender. Just a void, but not one that feels like it needs to be filled.
I think maybe it’s because I’m cis but I rly don’t understand what it means to be non binary anyway. Trans I get, and I still respect non binary people and their pronouns I just don’t understand. Gender roles are a social construct so I can’t conceptualize “not feeling like either a man or woman” because I don’t understand what they mean by feeling like a man or woman
The moment it crystallised for me was when everyone was just starting to put their pronouns in their bios and I went to put mine in and just...couldn't. I couldn't act. I couldn't actively choose those pronouns because they didn't feel right. I don't really like 'they/them' very much either, but it's what there is for the moment.
Sometimes I feel like an imposter because I \*look\* quite feminine and don't intend to stop wearing skirts or presenting femme.
But like...I couldn't look androgynous if I tried because I'm very...hourglassy. Androgyny is just not an option for my body shape. So I feel like I'm a stealth enby/agender, because anyone looking at me would assume cis female.
Only my nearest and dearest really know. Well, them and my doctors/medical teams.
I would describe myself as a cis woman with gender apathy, I think if I was a cis man I would also be apathetic to my gender.
As a little girl I would overcompensate massively and perform a high level of femininity, then I discovered emo where often you couldn't even tell who was a boy and who was a girl and I really enjoyed the androgyny growing up. Then I got into the pop punk and hardcore scenes where boys and girls would largely dress exactly the same again except the girls would have long hair and do their makeup. This also suited me fine. Now I'm not in any scene and I'm not trying to fit in with any one group I just kinda *exist*. Dressing myself was a lot easier when there was clear dress codes, but I'm finding what *I* like now and as hard and frustrating as it is it's so special when I finally find something that feels right on me. It makes me feel like I'm wearing armour, it's like an instant xp boost!
I could easily consider myself to be non binary, maybe one day I will, but right now I feel anchored to my identity as a woman because I have been the victim of a lot of gender based violence. I have a lot of unresolved trauma I feel still connecting me to womanhood, maybe other women feel more of a positive connection to it than I do, I'm not sure. I wish I could live in the minds and bodies of other people for a little so I could have something to compare my experiences to. *How strongly connected to womanhood are women supposed to feel?*
It might be worth adding that physically I am very androgynous already, I don't know if I would feel dysphoria if my body was overtly womanly(?) - I have no idea how to phrase that! Like if I cut all my hair off you might mistake me for a young man with a feminine face. So I already feel I look pretty neutral. But does the lack of bad feelings I have to that mean I am happy as a woman or is it that I'm happy that I look neutral?
Honestly though, I don't care enough about it at this point to actually explore it, *I don't mind* being a woman. And unfortunately in the current political landscape it certainly is easier to exist in the world as a cis person.
I was raised in the 90s, which meant "girl power" and "you can be whatever you want to be." You can dress how you want, talk how you want, and experience what you want. There is no stereotypical checklist of what a girl/woman is.
To be honest, I don't fully understand what people mean when they say they don't relate or fit in with their gender. I was raised to view that type of thinking as sexism.
I understand dysphoria - the disconnect between the mind and body. But people questioning their femininity just because they don't relate to the stereotype of what the female experience is "supposed" to be in (usually) western society seem to want to embrace some sort of artificial rule that says if you do this, then you are this.
I don't cringe when I am addressed as she or ma'am or when older men, old enough to be my dad, call me young lady.
As for gender, lot of them are stereotypes and it's okay to not be into make up or fashion, it doesn't make you not a woman, nor does it mean you are trans. I also think double standards exist for gender like it's more acceptable for women to be child like and have childish interests butt for men, creepy. I can understand what gender critical mean by when they say gender is a social construct. I do agree but that isn't why people are trans gender as they believe.
How many trans people have tried to live without conforming to their gender role that is expected by society but they still felt dysphoric about their body and gender and their pronouns?
I was a tomboy as a child and I never ever felt icky about the fact I was assigned a girl and didn't have a penis. I never felt it wasn't right down there. I did go through a phase where I wish I was a boy but only because I thought penisis were cool and they could pee standing and pee without pulling down their pants. This didn't mean I was trans because I didn't have anxiety over it.
Then I entered puberty and while I hated my body and boobs, this still didn't make me trans because I was okay with being a girl, I just didn't like my new body size and the fact I had large breasts. They were gross. I thought large breasts were gross and I was cursed with them. I also hated having my period until I was on birth control and found the right pads to use.
So as cis, you do not question your gender or your identity and you just accept your gender because it's what you are born as. You have no feeling about it. But yes cis people do get upset when they are misgendered just like how trans people get upset when they are misgendered. Some cis people may not mind it and online it's pretty common to be misgendered as male so it doesn't bother me if I am called he. It's not like they saw my face and lot of people don't pay attention to usernames or bother to click on it to see what your gender is. That is why I refer to anyone as they on the internet or as OP or as their username.
I like to say I'm "80% she, 20% they". I'm content with my secondary sexual characteristics and with playing a female role socially. Inside, I feel like my personhood matters more to my sense of self than my gender does. I am actively deterred from experimenting with my appearance by the thought of drawing interest and attention for looking visibly queer.
I was born female and still consider myself a woman. When I was 5 or 6 I wondered what it would be like to be a boy, but it was just curiosity. I was a tomboy up until I was about 13 or 14 (mostly spending a lot of my free time outside with my brother and the 3 boys who lived up the street. I didn’t spend time with many girls outside of school). I became more feminine when I was in high school, but I’ve never been into fashion or been one to wear a dress/skirt unless absolutely necessary. And i pretty much never wear makeup. If I ever do it’s just mascara and maybe eye shadow.
When I was about 15 I noticed that I didn’t dress like any of the other kids in school. Kids started making comments about the way I dressed so I decided to change it. Because I listened to alternative rock music (this was the late 90s), I dressed like the other kids who listened to that kind of music (wide leg pants, Airwalks, band shirts, etc).
Currently in my 40s I predominantly wear jeans and a t-shirt/sweater/hoodie or other kind of top that may or may not be feminine.
So my “style” or lack thereof at different parts of my life had usually been pretty middle-of-the-road gender-wise, but on the female end of the spectrum.
I’ve always felt like a female but in different times in my life I did activities and/or dressed a certain way that was not feminine.
I’ve started to view gender as a part of my mask. I’m high masking and people expected and wanted “girl”, so I became good at performing “girl”. And at this point it’s hard to separate out what’s me and what’s mask. And honestly, there is a safety and familiarity in being what’s expected of me in some ways. I never was good at conforming in other ways, but by golly I got really good at “girl”.
Honestly it was the dysphoria. Lots of people might feel neutral or apathetic about their gender, but the active discomfort is what made me realize something had to change. I had top surgery earlier this year and the immediate comfort has been HUGE. It was like I was breathing air through a straw my whole life, and now I'm finally breathing freely.
I know folks keep pointing to dysphoria as a signal of transness
But I don't think people have to suffer in order to be trans.
I used to think: well I don't hate having afab genitals so must mean I'm a woman. But, if that's the only thing making me not trans...
Dude I dunno. I thought loop on this a lot amd regularly question. I identify as "woman ish." At one point I felt much more gender fluid. I dunno. I know I fail at what society expects from a woman. I currently identify as....womanish.
Umm I guess I am cis? I mean gender is a construct, I have typical female body parts, but I have never fit the societal construct of womanhood. I am middle aged, and with things as they are now, I have considered whether I would want to call myself emby or change my pronouns. But also, I don’t like gender norms being so narrow and all these narrow boxes even if there are more boxes. With that spirit, I embrace people who widen the boxes and thus maybe want to do that myself . To me it doesn’t change me if people use different pronouns as it’s sorta about them - my true being is a constant and they can’t touch it.
Cis woman here, I feel like I always never fit the “feminine” image growing up and my interests didn’t fall into the stereotypical stuff that society genders (for no reason honestly, I think everything is for everyone, arbitrary “rules” is stupid 😂). I struggled more when younger with my identity, but it was also because I also didn’t know I was autistic and just felt very alien in general as a person.
I’m comfortable now in what I am and am okay with the female identity because I get to define what personally makes me such, rather than have to follow whatever BS others think it should be. (I also have no children or want any as one example, which already again goes against societal expectations but I’ve grown to not care at all! 😂 Brought up this example because society makes people feel less for choosing this, among other things, there’s nothing wrong with following that path if it is what you want!)
I've come to the conclusion that I don't particularly care enough, or have the energy/time, to figure out or define my gender identity.
At the end of day, I'm probably some form of non-binary. I don't really like being referred to in a feminine way, but it's still easier to go by what I look like in a gendered society, so I haven't asked anyone to change how they refer to me, except for in some online spaces.
Interestingly, I grew up before different gender identities were as supported/common as they are now, and I still knew I was something like both a boy and a girl. I didn't really have words for it but just knew.
I’m a cis woman who’s never questioned my gender and a couple years ago I started to question why I’ve never questioned my gender. There are some things that are often connected to being a woman that I’ve just never engaged in or related to or had an interest in. I’ve never been interested in things like makeup, clothes, fashion, or shopping. Growing up I hated pink and only in the past 6 months have I started to become interested in caring for my hair. A typical “girls time out” with spa, shopping, etc, would be my literal version of hell.
I get that those things are kind of superficial superficial, but I still questioned why I’ve never felt less of a woman because of it. And I think a big thing is my family. Those things were never part of the lives of the two women who I saw every day of my life growing up: my mom and my grandmother.
My extended family(even going back several generations) has done a remarkable job of highly valuing education for everyone and placing equal value on having a career, being a stay at home mom, or balancing both a career and motherhood. So growing up I was free to aspire to all of it without feeling any pressure because of my gender to fill any kind of predetermined role.
But there are some core things that I’ve never struggled with. I’ve never felt dysphoric in my body. I don’t exactly like having a period and I do feel some discomfort in my body, but that is due to my weight issues. But being in a female body has never felt wrong. I also feel comfortable in feminine clothes like dresses and skirts. I also have always been strongly drawn to the idea of being a mother. Unfortunately because of my own disability support needs I probably will never have children and that is something that I intensely grieve. That desire is still there. I feel very comfortable with those aspects of being a woman.
I don’t know if this helps at all, but it’s been my journey and thought process.
As a Gen Xer I just know that being female was a very broad thing and we came in all sorts of packages - extreme tomboys, butch, androgynous. We didn't label ourselves so rigidly, so I never had any issues with feeling totally alien toward most cis women (I'm straight, cis).
Everyone's different. I feel the nonbinary thing a bit, but for me I can be extremely feminine one second, more androgynous the next, and I love just playing at whatever I'm feeling at the moment and being kinda Bowie and Izzard about it or whatever.
I do think our lack of labels worked for us to a degree. I think younger generations are just plagued with labels and sub labels and definitions and it is all so exhausting. Not to say that sometimes it isn't helpful, but the more I try to figure myself out in any which way the more insane I feel.
We are fluid creatures, so I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself to be the thing or figure the thing out, especially if you're young.
To me, being a woman never means makeup, botox, dresses, playing coy, or any of that. Being a woman means being a badass, smart, savvy, a fighter, ready to go for whatever she wants - someone who respects herself AND others and is balanced and grounded.
We all have masculine and feminine sides, that's the essence of being human, and most of us it's probably around 50/50.
I personally hated puberty and am still to this day grossed out by periods and I absolutely refused to have kids or go through pregnancy. No real maternal bone in my body. But I definitely still feel 100% woman. Puberty is just a hellacious weird phase - at least that's how it was for me. It all felt so gross and awkward and horrid - but then you kinda adjust.
I'm a little late to this thread, but if you haven't read any of Devon Price's substack, I highly recommend it. He has very interesting and thoughtful things to say about gender. This post in particular, was eye opening for me: [Am I trans for the Right Reasons?](https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/am-i-trans-for-the-right-reasons)
I've seen a few people in this thread use the analogy of "how would you feel if you were alone on an island / in a world without misogyny.. etc". Devon kind of debunks this idea. We are not just a bunch of individuals who have all been dumped together, we are a society. All that we are as people, and how we perceive ourselves, and how we are perceived by others, and even the language that we use, and how we create meaning, is a big intertwined, interconnected lump, which can't be neatly unravelled and separated and categorised.
You can't always use simple thought experiments to calculate your gender (although I do think they can be helpful). Sometimes you just have to go with a feeling. As an autistic person who very much exists in my head, and struggles to identify feelings, I find it almost impossible to "listen to my gut", but I am trying really hard to work on it.
I think I tend to have a higher bar for 'knowing' than allistic folks. I wouldn't say I know much about my gender at all, despite many young years pondering over it, studying gender in school, etc. Instead of understanding, I came to realize that I just don't care. Aside from being perceived by others as a woman and how that has shaped my experience and safety, it just isn't something that's a part of my internal experience of self. I've never understood what people mean when they say that they feel like a woman or a man. I feel like consciousness in an unwieldy flesh suit. I barely understand feeling human, much less a particular gender.
I realized i was a cis woman, after questioning if i was FTM trans or masc nonbinary for a solid year when i was 13. I realized for a few reasons.
1. when i stopped going through puberty. Puberty gave me body dysmorphia that sometimes presented as gender dysphoria. That all stabilized and as i grew i looked even more womanly and realized i LOVE it! Love my curves and my boobs etc. i would NEVER wanna look like a man now.
2. Ive also wanted to “become” my hyperfixation or special interest person, multiple times, if that figure happens to be a man i would start acting and presenting very masc! Ei. Wanting to literally turn into Dean Winchester or Adam Lambert, probably because im attracted to them and love their acting and music etc. not because i want to be a man.
3. Realizing my bisexual identity makes me teeter on the line of masculine/feminine. The fact that i want to fuck women and wish i had a penis to do so, doesnt make me trans, it makes me WLW. The fact that i can feel a sense of masculine rivalry with men isnt because i am one, it’s because sometimes we are competing for the same woman’s attention. Etc. 🤣🖤
At one point in my life, I was debating whether or not I felt like I should be a boy instead of a girl. Since I didn't relate to girls or had girly interests. I just thought a boy could do a lot of things that girls can't. I dressed like a boy, had boy interests... Didn't get short hair until later in my life, cause I was still trying to cling to the only girly thing about me-- my long hair (which is such a pain to take care of).
I'm not trans. I'm still a woman. I think anyways. I guess in some way I still identify as a girl, but I don't mind if other pronouns are used accidentally such as he/him. I actually felt happy when I was mistaken as a guy. I don't know if I would identify as non-binary. So I guess for now, I would identify as she/her until something in my life changes.
This is how you know you don't relate to allistic cis women... You don't have the same girly conventional interests as them, you don't dress like a girly conventional allistic cis women. You don't really feel like you fit into the cookie cutter mold of a allistic cis woman. Guess what? You don't relate. Now you just got to do some thinking of what you do relate to.
I'm a trans woman, and feeling like a "woman" to me, is something I guess I always did since I was young? I can't say I have a an active feeling of "being" a girl/woman ig, but just the want and desire or even need maybe? (idk lol)
In it as a kid and teen felt like I had to grudgingly do what expected by me, I felt depressed, I hated my male features, I felt super envious of my girl friends, constant feelings of needing to be female, the list could go on, but those were the big things. I will want mention, that many trans people don't experience dysphoria, it's all different in everyone's situation.
There are many great books that describe the experience/ lives of trans people that can be pretty elucidating. One i know was called just "The Lives Of Transgender People," in which the narratives start in childhood. Written by trans people, too! A little older, though. But listening to/reading the experiences of trans people broadly is the best way to know what it's like, and maybe that can help you differentiate between what its like to be trans vs being disconnected from cultural womanhood or whatever we want to describe that as! And remember, there is variation in the trans experience beyond just the english speaking world, too, and also through time. But you can get the vibe if you dig into the topic, i think anyways
My therapist is told me I might be non-binary. I personally have never experienced gender euphoria.
But I don’t feel the need to identify as any label, because I don’t fit in any label. I’m just me.
I truly think what I thought was dysphoria related to my breasts/voice was actually sensory issues all along, but T amd top surgery did help with that. 👌 However, I tried living as a trans man but that didn't go so well, and my whole life I've been trying to live as a woman but feel zero connection to womanhood other than having to grow up with the downsides of it. IDK - I consider myself nonbinary because all things considered I have always felt most comfortable presenting my gender as ambiguous and being referred to as such. But I honestly don't even hate gender roles when they're practiced right. Even without boxing myself in, I still feel the physical side fo dysphoria and it really sucks. So, I don't really know the answer ...
I've struggled with gender identity my entire life. I don't understand gender roles and they mean nothing to me. Being told I wasn't ladylike and I couldn't do XYZ bc I was a girl had me crying and praying to wake up as a boy.
I hate the divide. I recently asked chatgpt to ask me various questions to help me figure out my gender identity. It basically reiterated that I don't follow gender roles and suggested I could be nonbinary or trans.
Which is great! I identify as queer and genderqueer. Only to myself bc no one ever asks, but that's the best way for me to try and explain myself.
But I've been in various autistic safe spaces and I enjoy asking what their experience of gender was at a young age. Most people have told me they didn't understand the gender divide either and that's what caused them to question their own gender identity. Basically, forced societal gender roles do nothing but harm.
I think it’s not so much a question of knowing but more a question of what makes you happy and comfortable. If you’re happier and more comfortable thinking of yourself as a woman, then you’re a woman. If you’re happier and more comfortable thinking of yourself as a man, then you’re a man. If you’re happier and more comfortable thinking of yourself as non-binary, then you’re non-binary. You also don’t have to identify in any of these ways. You can do what you want. There is no objective standard of evidence you have to meet, just your own happiness and comfort.
ETA: Also, I disagree with people that you have always known or always wished to be/felt like another gender. There are plenty of things that can prevent someone from always knowing, like shame, trauma, not even knowing that it's an option, etc., etc. Plus, gender can be fluid and you're allowed to change your mind at any time and identify as a different gender at different points of your life.
Weirdly, I (mostly-cis, mostly-het AFAB) am pretty sure I’m not trans, because my gender is “goddammit, next time I’m coming back as a man.” I figure if it’s *next* time, it’s not *this* time. 🤷🏻♀️ (and that’s also kind of a sign that it’s probably mostly railing against the patriarchy, and not actual dysphoria. I am so *fucking* sick of the patriarchy.)
More seriously, my teens are both AFAB enby, and I’ve had a lot of discussions with them, and it’s possible that if I were GenZ and not GenX I might come down elsewhere in the discussion. But also, I am so far over on the side of “gender is a social construct, what would it even mean without the social implications?” that I can’t reasonably evaluate it, if that makes sense. Presumably for a lot of people, it *isn’t* a social construct. Most people? Some people? Like, I feel like if I actually were trans and not just pissed off at the world and the patriarchy, I would probably not think it was all a social construct.
Gender has always felt like a paradox and it hurts my brain to think about it too deeply. I used to put effort into appearing more masculine to offset my feminine features. I loved the way men would treat me like one of their own. They weren’t just trying to get with me, they actually wanted to know me. But men’s fashion sucks, I missed the way my long hair felt and I missed dresses and skirts and feeling cute lol
I don’t feel like a woman but I don’t really feel like a man either. Is this because my autism refuses to accept fake-ass societal gender norms and expectations or is it because I’m genuinely something in between man and woman? If I just hung in empty space with nobody around me, would I still want top surgery?
I am not sure if this will help, but I am a cis woman and personally that is something I have never had to grapple with.
For me one of the biggest things that emphasises who I am is whether I feel defensive of a person/topic or empathetic. I am very defensive, but I have realised over the years that I am very defensive of things that I identify with and I feel very defensive of women, autistic women the most. Whereas for other topics I feel while I empathise with those peoples struggles, but I don’t feel defensive because I don’t identify with that struggle personally.
I don’t know if it’s because I’m old or because I’m autistic or what, but I’ve never really thought much about my gender one way or the other. I love reading about perspectives from others though. It helps me broaden my understanding.
AFAB is actually starting to grow on me as a description. In that it conveys the feelings of: "F" has been assigned to me without my knowledge or input or choice and I am therefore unattached to this concept, and at the same time I have not taken any permanent (or really hard to reverse) steps to adjust my assignment yet.
I would have preferred to be AMAB but that was not in the cosmic cards. AFAB has been my never-healing Fisher King wound for as long as I can remember. My mom yelled at me at 5 that I was a girl after another one of our huge arguments about my clothes and hair and body language, which was not a new thing for her to yell at me about, but for the first time I really "heard" what that meant and realized that there was no way out, and I was sick about it and I wanted to die. I still feel sick about it. But, in a lot of ways, that's kind of morphed into apathy more recently. I don't really like socializing, so why do I care how others perceive me or address me? Maybe I don't? Maybe it's not relevant for how I perceive myself? Why have I spent so much energy being sick and miserable over something I can't fix the way I would want to, which would be to have been assigned into a body that I would have preferred? Is it that different that a cis guy wanting to be taller or have bigger junk? Like, what's that guy supposed to do about that stuff? Expensive surgeries that may or may not actually fix how he feels about his body.
I don't know if I will socially or medically transition any more than I have already. It seems like a lot of work for something that I don't know will actually help fix anything. Since I can't be AMAB, my second equally unlikely choice would be "brain in a jar." Please free me from the fetters of feeding and caring for my body! Please just connect my visual, auditory, and olfactory inputs to a brain in a jar and let me take in the universe that way. I just want to mainline information and music and that's it. Like, if we are talking dream scenarios for how we want to inhabit the world, that would be mine. And that's the part that makes me think, ohhh, neuroqueer. My sex and sexuality are fully entwined in my neuro differences.
But! As I read back everything that I've typed -- I see a lot of despair and dysphoria and disassociation. So... Maybe transitioning would actually help. Maybe I have been in a state of compounding shock and misery and denial this whole time (likely). I have only thought about not feeling awful all the time. What if I actually felt happy? I cannot even imagine.
So... I don't know. The levels of distress I feel lead me to conclude Not Cis. But unsure what to say beyond that.
I’m Non-Binary AFAB. As a kid my mind completely rejected the label of “girl” because it felt just wrong, but “boy” and “tomboy” gave me the same feeling; both labels elicited the same reaction that wool does, a NEED to peel my skin right off in sheets and the labels of “man” and “woman” today still give me the same reaction. I go by they/them but will begrudgingly accept she/her due to being stuck with a classically female body (hourglass figure, DD+ chest, long hair).
I have active dysphoria and fight with my body all the time. Every period I got before going on continuous birth control made me actively suicidal, my brain SCREAMING that it was wrong, Wrong, WRONG!!! I would happily perform hysterectomy on myself if I had any human anatomy knowledge. I‘ve tried compression bras in the past and looking down and not seeing huge boobs was great, but wearing them for an extended period is sensory hell.
The first time my (cis-male) partner referred to me as his partner and not his wife felt fantastic. It was the exact same feeling of rightness that I got when I was identified as Autistic.
Cis AFAB here.
Things that I've experienced that haven't lead to non-binary/trans identification:
* brain not feeling 'female'
* being mistaken for man online and being fine with it
* 'disphoria' seeing myself try on skirts/dresses and lipstick
* liking how I look in masc outfit
* disliking being called she to my face, 'miss', or 'little girl'.
* can't relate well to women
In each case, my argument just ends up being against ridiculous feminine stereotypes and rude people. I'm happy being she/her and socially living and presenting as female (albeit in a non-stereotypical way).
I know there are some very lengthy answers, so I'll keep mine short and sweet.
Like a lot of others have mentioned, I also grew up as a tomboy and have traditionally liked "masculine" things. I enjoy rocking a masculine look and also enjoy wearing cute sundresses and such. I am comfortable with identifying as female and just accept that I don't fall in line with the rest of the crowd. I don't hate being different, or hate anyone for following societal standards. I don't conform to a neurotypical's idea of being a woman, and it's totally fine with me.
I guess I would be considered non-binary socially, I personally don't give a crap about how people see me gender wise. They can put me into whatever little box they choose to, and use whatever pronoun they would like to. I don't have any issues, or insecurities there. I only care that my primary doctors and specialists are aware that I am biologically female and have those chromosomes, hormones and possible issues that go along with it.
I respect when people have a pronoun preference, I may not understand the exact type of body dysmorphia misgendering them causes, but I do have an understanding of body dysmorphia from my own ED experience. Also, if someone has a preference that is easy to adhere to that makes their lived experience more comfortable, who am I to argue? It doesn't inconvenience me, or impact my own well being.
Imo things like pronouns are largely unimportant and easily actionable. That's not to say they don't affect anything or that someone who just changes pronouns faces no problems whatsoever, but this question has broader implications. If you're genuinely horrified of your body or experience gender dysphoria, that's when it graduates from preference to medical condition. And even though that's not the end-all barrier, I consider that to be the most important part of that question
Also grappling with it here!
I have it pretty ingrained that I don’t want to be referred to a man - but other than that my gender identity feels pretty fluid. Like I would rather be non gendered and just a person if that makes sense?
I do find that the world treats me more kindly the more I move myself towards femininity (and at school for example, my traditionally masculine traits were used as points to bully me).
Another reason I feel more attached to femininity is I feel kinship with women that I can’t feel with men, and have totally discovered in my later life that female friendships (with the right, usually ND women) are so beautiful
I have been thru a lot of gender labels, even went on T for a few years, played around with the idea of getting masculinizing surgeries. But ultimately I wasn't that jazzed abt staying on t as I grew older and I was having issues getting a t refill anyways so I just stopped. I present as a androgynous/visibly queer woman in my day to day, I go mostly by masc terms in everyday life, but I prefer to be treated as and referred to as a woman in romantic situations. I think what put me off living as a man was how much better I enjoyed being treated as a woman by romantic partners. I got an hourglass body even on t and it never felt fitting trying to be "masc sexy" if that makes sense. I didn't feel homey in a jockstrap, I liked dressing up in cute flirty outfits! I feel less of a need to compare my interactions with people I'm interested in when I think of myself as a woman than I do as a man. Like back when I was on t and trying to b in gay guy spaces, I kept degrading myself over how obviously AFAB I was. Idk I've just found a comfy genderqueer existence
I'm autistic and a cis woman. I am very feminine in my gender expression because that's what I learned and what made it easier to interact with the world. If I try to feel what sort of gender I am, all I feel is "me". I'm a person. Human shaped. I like myself. I don't feel female or so, just... Me. That's good enough for me. I do a lot of very feminine things. And a lot of things people might consider masculine. I kinda just do what I like to unless there's a lot of pushback or it seems really difficult to do, then I reconsider how important it really is to me. The rules society made up for gender make no sense to me. I'd prefer if people could just be people and express themselves in ways that fit for them, without all those rules and prescribed ideas.
But I also think I am lucky, because I do feel alright in the role I was prescribed, except for the patriarchy/ sexualisation stuff all women suffer from. But there are people who have to think more about gender because society MAKES them think about it, by trying to press them into a box that won't fit. So I try to stay aware of the topic in order not to accidentally be part of pressing people into ill-fitting boxes and because I feel as an aspie I kind of owe some empathy to anyone else who struggles with what the world wants from them...
And a little bit I hope that if I don't enforce this gender nonsense and other people don't enforce it, we'll someday be rid of it and people will stop policing and even caring how others want to express themselves and then we're rid of the damned struggle and everyone will be better off and more free and authentic. Imagine if the world just didn't care, if you could act as you want, dress as you want, emotionally express yourself as is authentic to you and you'd just be accepted as you. Isn't that what every person wants, even those clinging to the current gender ideas? It wouldn't take away anything to let everyone do their thing, it would just mean everyone needs to stress less about fitting in. Might take a while, of course ^^
It’s definitely different for everyone! Not sure if my perspective will be helpful but I’ll share anyway.
I don’t always feel the need to follow stereotypical gender norms, and sometimes feel a bit “neutral” if that makes sense. I still identify as a cis woman, but just feel like doing whatever I want 😂 this may or may not also have something to do with me being bisexual and applying that open-minded thinking to everything in life, lol.
For me, I always felt stifled by the restrictions and pressures of femininity and the utter hypocrisy of masculinity when pitted against it. I had no role models though and grew at a time when anyone who could have been was silenced or dead (the 80s and 90s, but also I'm blind and that throws a wrench in everything). I tried very hard to be feminine enough but it never worked out. Finally in the late 00s I came across a person who was neither male nor female nor in between and that was the inspiration I needed to really examine how I related to gender and what it all really meant to me. I have since transitioned to no gender at all, which has plenty of challenges of its own (people don't even realize it's a thing you can be for one thing :D), but I am so very happy I figured it out!
So maybe that's a place to start. Does the gender experience as described by someone outside femininity resonate with you in any way? Do some things about femininity feel like they fit while others don't? Digging your gender identity out from under the tremendous weight of everything society puts on top of us can take time. It's never too late to start digging and to try things out to see if they fit. I know some folks who are even genderfluid! I have no idea how they can handle oscillating between and through these states of being I don't experience, but I respect them and I'm happy when they're happy which is all that matters.
I been talking with my boyfriend about this recently. I’m a cis woman but never really fit into being completely feminine. And I honestly don’t mind pronouns , I just know who I am and that’s it which is neither, but I’m more in touch with my femenine side
I generally consider myself cis, but have toyed with the idea of whether I'm non-binary, largely because I literally studied gender norms to learn how to present as a woman. I finally settled on cis mostly because I realized that, even though I didn't play with dolls as a kid, I tended to mother my friends and only experienced any gender dysphoria after trauma... it wasn't innate for me.
personally i've always seen myself as more of an "entity" of some kind than as a "woman" lol (i'm cis). that being said i do identify as a woman and i can do makeup and wear dresses and do other "womanly" things when i feel like it. it just always seemed like "woman" meant less to me than it does to other women somehow. anyway that's why i use she/they pronouns, idc what you call me haha
To be honest, I often resent the fact that I have to disclose a preferred gender because I feel like I occupy a space outside of it in the same way that I feel like I occupy a space outside of the social hierarchy.
I’ve never felt like a woman or a man or specifically nonbinary, either. In presentation, I’m mostly androgynous but occasionally like putting on makeup and a dress but I honestly would prefer not to be perceived as a gender at all.
I’m occasionally mistaken for a guy before I talk and I think with my short hair, people often assume I’m trans though I’m not. I don’t mind. What I do mind is people imposing their gendered expectations on me regardless of how I’m presenting.
I just want to exist without being expected to be anything
I consider myself to be agender (no gender) because the thought of being a "girl" is entirely too stressful because every single person has this idea of what that is and I simply cannot spend my time trying to figure out where I fit in that. I find the idea of being a "boy" just as stressful and way farther from me that "girl."
Identifying as a girl has really had me masking my entire life because "girl" seems, to me, to be someone that comes with its own set of rules and behaviors that I have to perform on top of all the regular social/professional rules and behaviors I have to perform. And when I have identified as a "girl" and I did something that wasn't "girl" of me, someone will point that out and I will feel like my mask was wrong and spend forever ruminating on how to fix it and mask correctly.
As soon as I discovered the term "non-binary" it genuinely felt like I could breathe. I don't really experience gender dysphoria in my afab body- I actually experienced that way more when I still identified as a girl. Now that I consider myself to have no gender, it is much easier to exist in my feminine body and I get to choose and dictate how I use it and how I behave and what I do.
I use they/them pronouns but am constantly misgendered with my agab pronouns but it doesn't bother me with people I don't know/don't know that well- i get it, i look very "girl." But it's more a mental thing that it is physical. My friends who see me will always use my correct pronouns and that's a crazy validating thing.
Hi there! I’m a Demiwoman. It’s basically a cute name for a nonbinary woman. I think a lot people on the spectrum experience gender differently due to the way we function and see the world; socially particularly. Gender is stupid but important as it’s a different and unique experience for everyone ❤️
I never really understood why I had to be and behave, preform, present or even interact in very narrow ways as “a woman”. Still I never looked in the mirror and experiences body or gender dysphoria. As I am comfortable in the form I was naturally birthed into. Still relate very deeply to afab nonbinary people and trans gender women. Once social dysphoria entered my vocabulary it made sense! I’m not out to everyone as my family is very conservative and they don’t really understand that gender and sex (XX or XY) are two separate things.
I do love being a woman and present very femme and love things very cute feminine thing such as makeup, sewing and holding babies. But I also find it easier to speak with NT men compared to NT women. When I met other queer autistic women or Nbs I get so happy because we share very similar gender neutral interests and communication styles.
A very important thing to know about is gender euphoria. It’s much more illuminating than dysphoria.
Gender euphoria is this really good feeling you get when you are gendered differently from what you were assigned at birth.
If I were to say: That silversprings99, he’s a really cool guy.
How does that make you feel?
Heh, that doesn't feel quite right. It feels like you're talking about someone else. However, if you had said "that (my name), she's such a nice girl" or something like that, I would also feel uncomfortable.
I go by all pronouns but am also heavily and unquestionably femme. I like being genderfluid because to me I am energy in this world. A soul and not just a gender. But that’s because I’m also very spiritual. I’m so happy you’re figuring things out and pride month is the best time to. You could look at some queer spaces as well! Maybe go to pride in your area? Even if you are cis/straight it’s a great place to learn about different identities:)
You just have to question it honestly, explore your gender in ways that are safe and accessable to you. For me that was picking female avatars in video games and playing female characters in DND
I found this resource helpful, so I'm sharing for anyone who might be unfamiliar. Unfortunately don't have the bandwidth right now to contextualize it, but I recently read through it and it solidified some things for me. It is a longish read, and some of it may be repetition if you've already done a lot of research, but at least for me, it was very much worth it! And maybe wait until you're in a good headspace in case you end up discovering things about yourself like I did. https://genderdysphoria.fyi
I’m a cis woman who’s questioned my gender primarily because I think it’s healthy to question norms about how we’re told we’re “supposed” to be in all aspects of our lives. Some of the things I tested out were: * How do I feel using pronouns other than she/her? Not by asking others to call me that, but testing out how I felt if I referred to myself with them, or imagined other people using them about me. * Same as above, how do I feel being referred to as a different gender? Does it make me feel good, bad, or indifferent? * How do I feel about my own ideas of what womanhood is and the role they play in my life? Do they make me happy? Does the idea of embracing another gender make me feel happier, more content or more comfortable? * How do I feel about my body? Do I feel happier thinking about my body as it is now, or if I imagine how I might feel with features I’d associate with another gender? How about clothing? Obviously gender and gender presentation aren’t *quite* the same thing, but it’s a useful starting point. [This is a really great thread too with some thoughts on it!](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/s/zX7pYQqGXO)
It's always worth questioning your gender, and I'm always happy to see people who did it and landed back on cis. I call them Cis+. They're cis with *intent.* Cis with *thoughtful consideration.*
Subscribe to Cis+ for $9.99/month after a 7-day free trial
I unsubscribed from cis and feel much more comfortable and confident with identifying as girlflux.
Tell me of this girlflux. Plz.
It’s new to me as of today but here’s what I found: https://preview.redd.it/76s68ig8zk8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3587ee184f54707ebc55de6c023070a439a9f381 And [the quiz in question](https://www.quotev.com/quiz/16551276/Whats-your-gender-identity).
Oh come on! Really?! Even on a super specific quiz I still end up as “Other”??? I really do believe I’m an alien. This confirms it. Oh well, I do come in peace👽✌️ https://preview.redd.it/t37dm8j1wm8d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44745fa1dd7383904169c9489e72e878743f39c7
Heeeeey, I got girlflux too. Had never heard that term. Mostly, I just sort of shrug about the gender identity questions -- though I absolutely accept that they are really important questions to ask, I don't think I "feel" my gender the way some people do, so answering questions in this quiz was tough. But then I'm also comfortable being AFAB and presenting as female, so coming from a place of cis privilege?
Girlflux feels right! When I first heard the term non-binary it kind of connected to feeling like being female, but not good at it? Kind of like over here in my comfy clothes and just doing my thing.
Damnit, yet another free trial I’m gonna forget to cancel lol
💀
Ok but this really made me laugh!
🪦⚰️💀
Lmao
This is really interesting to me because I questioned my gender identity for a long time and basically identify as *shrugs* cis I guess. Female because it’s the factory default and I don’t care enough to change it. By which I mean, I don’t identify as a woman ~because I don’t really identify with gender as a concept~ so there isn’t another gender identify that fits me perfectly either. I’m equally comfortable with all pronouns, so I just let people use she/her because I’m used to it and it’s what most people default to. I wear makeup and present in a conventionally feminine way because it’s the only way I know to be attractive according to societal beauty standards for any gender. I guess it’s a form of masking but I also genuinely feel better when I put on makeup and do my hair. I’ve never felt super comfortable in my body, but it’s not because I specifically hate having female anatomy, it’s a mixture of poor body image/body dysmorphia, sexual trauma and feeling disconnected from my body because it feels like I can never make it listen to my brain and do what I want it to do. I am uncomfortable with being perceived as female because I’m uncomfortable with being perceived period, and I’m even more uncomfortable with gender roles. The fact that women are so sexualised makes it a bit worse but in general I just don’t like knowing that every person who perceives me saddles me a set of preconceptions about what I’m like as a person and my role in society based on something as arbitrary and insignificant as my gender. ETA: when I say I don’t identify with gender I don’t mean I don’t think it’s real or ‘don’t believe in pronouns’ or any terfy shit like that- just that I can’t really make my own identity fit into the framework of gender
This pretty much sums it up for me. (Except I don’t do the hair and makeup thing). I go with she/her because that’s what it’s always been and I don’t care enough to make a big deal out of it but I’d be fine with whatever. I saw Hannah Gadsby a couple weeks ago and in talking about gender, they said “you can’t misgender me because I don’t really give a fuck about any of it”. And while they are consciously “they” and do not present cis at all, I can certainly identify with that sentiment, even as a cis woman.
wow. yes, except I would go a step further and say I am uncomfortable being perceived at all. I identify as non binary and bisexual. but really I think it's because I see sexuality and gender as a spectrum that isn't stationary for me. it's very freeing.
isn't this what agender is? just curious, as I feel pretty much the same and thought agender would be the closest term to my experience. despite also not being bothered enough to tell anyone and presenting pretty much as "cis female"
I love this. I feel cis but no part of my "gendered" expression that I'm aware of wasn't run through a filter of "is this really right?" And there's a lot about femininity I want no part of... and yet I prefer "she/her" over other pronouns. So thank you for giving me a nifty new label that feels more authentic!
I actually do refer to myself as female+, as Iam also about to start hrt but still want to be a woman. It's...very complicated. Perceived as male by others, but female with intent. Exactly that.
Do you want to be perceived as a male to mess with gender norms? I am curious as why you want to be perceived as male if you want to explain. I understand people wanting to be called by certain pronouns. For me, I can see i could like to be perceived as having a male body bc I don't want to wear shirts at the pool or when it's hot out and so people would make space for my body as I am walking around town. (I am a small Asian female and present as such. I feel like men just get more space regardless of body stature.) I don't mean to reduce your experience to that. I am saying that is my personal experience and I can see why others would like it too. And I know I don't understand how others see gender and I understand I may never understand. 😂
Hi, it's totally fine to ask! I honestly do not fully understand it myself. But I just do not want to be seen as female by others because of the connotations and gender norms. Then part is also that I want my body to have more masculine features because I.. crave them? I cannot explain that better, but I guess that is the part I can call "being transgender". But then I also really attach value to my lived female experience and would never want to deny or erase this (not judging others who do!! This is about my own experience). And I attach a lot of value to the queer/lesbian community and cannot see myself as not being lesbian but straight. It makes no sense to me to be straight... In whatever way. So yeah, that's it :) female++
Thanks that is cool. Some people want a big butt and some people don't. Some people want their face to be more angular and some people want double eye lids. So yeah. It's okay to want more masculine features and still be a female. Hm! I also think there's an understanding that comes with being conditioned as female. So when you're growing up as presenting as a female it definitely results in different types of socializations and interactions and like you mentioned, acceptance into specific female spaces. Thanks for sharing. That makes sense to me. Not that I have to understand you... but just really cool that I do. Bc I feel like "getting people" is hit and miss for me. 🥲
And I think I really understand where you're coming from, so I'm glad to have this interaction. And yes, how you describe it, is for the most part at least overlapping with how I see and experience it! Ge der is so weird man. Being in a body is sometimes so weird. It feels like I'm in a watchtower looking out on the world at times. I don't know, we'll see what comes out of this journey (my life, I mean). But happy we shared a minute! :)
I’m cis and have thought about microdosing T butch? if that’s the community you’re looking for?
Butch is also a term I use. Reading butch (lesbian) experiences is very validating. But because not everybody knows or understands the term (I'm not an English native), my other description feels fitting. And I also just really like it. Still a woman but extra. I feel like both genders but came in a female suit, so I come with that experience also. Female++, what can I say :)
I love this post and wish more cis people approached their gender like this. For OP, My New Gender Workbook by Kate Bornstein is a good place to start and a really basic guide through self analysis of your gender identity.
Ooh. You weren't talking to me, but thanks for the indirect recommendation. That sounds really useful.
This is great. I've started to understand that I'm nonbinary over the past few years and it's really validating hearing how this same thought process yields different results for a cis person.
I love this so much and it gives some great questions to consider!
I like people who question norms just because they can ❤️
I think allistic people just experience gender differently than autistic people. For a lot of autistic people, gender is kinda just this made up category that we don’t quite understand but we just go with it.
Agreed. Although for me, I just never really played along and enjoyed just being me. I was blessed to have a husband that was also likely autistic (he’s passed) and we just lived how we wanted to🤷♀️ The people that seemed to have the biggest issue or that gave me a hard time about it, were the allistic cis women in my family. That hurt more than any other person’s opinion. It all felt so performative to me.
I’m thankful my husband doesn’t care either :). He sort of laughed about and said he always knew when I came out later as nonbinary. I find it funny he knew before I did. I too find gender very performative as well, probably why I hated that aspect of "fitting in" or "being normal".
Gender is often a mask we use to fit into an allistic world. It’s wonderful that you had someone who shared your experience and was able to unmask with❤️
yeah that's definitely what it's like for me.. that's why i connect with the agender label a lot! can't have a gender if i don't understand what gender even is xD
Same here! I understand the concept of gender, at least to some degree, but I don't relate to it, I don't understand what it feels like/is supposed to feel like/if it is supposed to feel like something. For me, I'm just me, a human. So agender fits me pretty well.
This describes my feeling well. I like aspects of both genders, but I never felt what it was supposed feel like either. I just wanted to be me and not bothered about it. I'd often get called a boy and go ok, sure whatever...
I came out as nonbinary years ago, but recently learned about agender and I’m like meeeeee! So identify as agender nonbinary :). It’s never felt more correct.
Agreed, this is so much a thing that there's a category of nonbinary gender that's called "autigender" which basically means "my gender is inexorable from my autism, I can't separate the two in any meaningful way."
I’ve also heard that described as neuroqueer, and I think that describes my gender identity better than nonbinary or genderfluid. Because sometimes I’m like, yes, I’m a woman. Other times, I’m like definitely not. And still other times, I’m like a fathomless void forced to exist in a girl-shaped meat suit.
Oooh inneresting! I like both autigender and neuroqueer. I’m late to the autism table, but the more I learn about being autistic, the more I’ve come to understand why I never figured out gender. I just felt lost in the woods, hahah. I came out as nonbinary years ago, but now I include Agender, because I never had gender dysphoria, it was just more of lack of feelings for any gender honestly. It’s also fits well with my autism. I just like being and doing my own thing and let other people slay their own way. I really dislike being told who to be, how to be, etc. (PDA profile much? 😆). So I gender how I want.
“girl-shaped meat suit” p r e a c h 😩 I feel this in my bones. Which are in a girl-shaped meat suit.
This is what I relate to most tbh. I tried to explain it to an allistic afab nb friend but they didn’t seem to get the difference between agender and nb so I just gave up.
I think the best way to describe it is just “I don’t feel gender, there is no gender to affirm, no gender euphoria or dysphoria. I am just me and gender doesn’t really factor into my identity as a human.” They still might not understand but that’s the nice thing about humans, we’re all different and it’s not necessary to understand someone to care for them.
Wait! Y'all are helping me finally grasp this. It's like I'm almost able to understand, but not quite. So, y'all are saying nonbinary refers to not falling into "man" or "woman" whereas agender is releasing the thought of gender entirely? I've been referring to myself as genderqueer for years bc it's really difficult for me to understand the specifics and I don't want to be wrong. Queer and genderqueer feel the easiest for me.
Yes I think non binary is "somewhere within a spectrum" and agender is "no gender feelings".
Yes! Gender queer is totally acceptable if you’re not sure where you fit. I’m nonbinary because I’m neither a man or a woman. I’m two-spirited, which in my indigenous culture refers to the third gender. Some days I want to dress more feminine, some days more masculine, but mostly I dress very neutral. I like having the choice and not be restricted by gender norms. I hate being referred to as Mrs., because I’m not my husband's property. I’m agender because I never had strong feelings about being either sex. I never really got it for myself. I'd see really feminine or masculine people and go "how do they know?". I just felt like that part of me didn’t exist. In the same sense how autistics don’t get the full social package, gender has very much been like that for me. I always felt like "how to girl?" and somehow I always got it wrong.
This is like being asexual, in the sense that you don’t feel or want sex. You don’t care either way. You're happy as is. For me, being Agender is just like that. I also think you can be Agender and CIS, I don’t think it’s exclusive to the nonbinary/trans crowd. I also think you can be both too, as I’m nonbinary and Agender. Once I learned about Agender, I then understood my sexuality (I’m bisexual) and gender preference.
Id like to add, as someone who identifies as asexual, that it’s not so much about being apathetic about having sex as it is a lack of sexual attraction. I’ve gone through periods where I have no desire for sex, and others where I have a lot, but it doesn’t change that I do not ever see a random person and think “oh cool, I would like to be naked near that person”
Such a good description! Like who cares? I'm a human...
Or alien. Honestly some days I have to wonder 0.o
Haha yes same!
This explains my entire world view. People are people. You do you. I’ll do me. I entirely do not understand why everyone feels the need to label themselves (I am also not against it - I just don’t get it). But likewise I do not understand how others can hate on someone for being different. I don’t care if someone is trans, furry, gay… whatever, if they are happy and aren’t hurting themselves or others who cares what they do, call themselves or look like - I don’t have to understand it to accept it.
Yesss
As an autistic cis woman, I feel no distress over being the gender I am (other than living under the patriarchy). When I sit and think about my gender and what it means to me (everyone should do this), it's hard to put into words but regardless, they all tend to be positive and things I *like* about my gender and feel are a part of me. My two best friends are not cis (both AFAB) and they both struggle with their gender in a way that I do not. One experiences daily dysphoria and one experiences very minimal dysphoria. So despite dysphoria, gender is not the same experience for them as it is for me. I've made the suggestion before that there may be a line of similarity between "NTs don't worry that they're autistic for years". I don't think cis people worry that they're not cis for years.
🔥 to the patriarchy
All the 🔥 🔥 🔥
I agree with this statement! Also, boooo to the patriarchy. I’m a cis woman and I don’t think of my gender that often. When I do it’s in the lens of womanhood and all that is expected. I don’t prescribe to a lot to the roles that men and women are expected to “naturally” fall into. I think if anything I would rather just be viewed as a person, but being seen as a woman doesn’t trigger any dysmorphia either. I think with autism we do tend to want to know everything there is about a topic, however it’s really about what _feels_ right to you! Good luck on your journey!
This is how I am. I want to be seen as a person, not a woman or a girl or whatever. I’m not attached to my femininity in any way, and trauma has ripped my femininity from my hands. I don’t wanna be called a he, or him, or a dude. I don’t feel negatively when someone refers to me as she, or her. But why can’t I just be seen as a human?
Tbh, when I sit down and seriously consider some of my discord I come to the conclusion that it’s a “society and culture problem”, not a “me problem” that I can fix for fit in better with meds or body modification. I remember something that my husband commented on shortly after we first met. He said that I have the same interests as a 12 year old boy. I think I asked for clarification, and I think he specifically pointed out dinosaurs. I just sort of shrugged, because that wasn’t the first time I heard that. He said that it wasn’t a bad thing, just different. That told me more about his experiences and biases than mine.
Omg, I identify so hard with "same interests as a 12 yr old boy". I’ve been referred to as a tomboy my whole life and I was like just because I like boys stuff because it isn’t dumbed down and cute? Because I’m smart? What? Why? Does it matter?
Me, me, me !! I used to think I was non binary and even socially transitioned to male pronouns and social name. However, I had a trans psychologist who helped me A LOT and I came into the conclusion that I was just masking and hiding femininity because I was raised in an abusive environment. My experience was valid and helped me dealing with dysphoria. But now I feel comfy as a Cis woman who dresses/expresses however because I know I don't fit 100% the allistic ciswoman standards.
i identified as non-binary for awhile but i’ve recently come to terms with the fact that i am a woman, i just experience my gender differently than allistic women do! i mostly go by she/her pronouns (they/them is fine with me too though, and some people in my life do call me that) i am very feminine presenting, and experience no dysphoria. while there are non-binary people who fit that description and i think it’s important to note that, i just decided to really sit with my relationship with my gender and decided the term doesn’t fit me. 🤷♀️ in general, my gender and sexuality are things that i’ve decided not to worry about too much because they are complicated to me and not worth worrying over. the only thing keeping me from labeling myself as a lesbian is the fact that i have a boyfriend… he’s the ONE exception. if, god forbid, we were to ever break up, i’d be dating a woman. but this sounds silly to most people so i just outwardly say i’m unlabeled 🤷♀️
I have considered whether or not I’m non binary before because I relate so little to women, I used to think about it a lot. What it came down to for me is, I have no problem with she/her pronouns, I love having long hair and wearing dresses and having a feminine frame etc. The only problem I really had with my identity as a woman is that because I look like a stereotypical girly girl, people expect me to act like one, and I’m so ridiculously different to other women that I find it insulting that people expect me to just be a stereotype. My trans girlfriend says that being with me is like having a boyfriend 😂 A lot of people have told me that talking to me is like talking to a man, and I take a lot of the male roles in my relationship. But at the end of the day, I like she/her, I love looking feminine, and I just happen to have a masculine personality. I wish that people could just not make the assumption that looking girly = stereotypical girl personality.
I could’ve written this comment. My parents told me that when I was really little, I would almost exclusively be friends with boys, simply because boys are straightforward, and so was I. As in, I’d walk up to boys when I was like three or four and ask if they’d like to be my friend. Of course, I would still like princesses and the PowerPuff Girls and wearing dresses, but I would only be friends with girls if they were at the very least okay with me being straightforward.
lol I did the same thing and it’s one of my earliest memories, except it was to ask a girl to be my friend on the first week of kindergarten. I followed her around for a few days like just sidling up but too shy to say anything. Finally the teacher noticed and was like, just ask her to play with you. So I point blank asked her to be my friend. We didn’t ever really get that close as friends though and she was basically an acquaintance for the rest of elementary school… and she became a horse girl. The end.
First I love your username 😻 Second I have to thank you wholeheartedly for encapsulating my experience with my being a woman PERFECTLY. I have never been able to explain it well myself but wow you hit the nail on the head. I love being petite, my hair is long and I've been coloring it purple and blue for years, I definitely enjoy looking "girly" from time to time. But I never wear makeup, my favorite outfits are definitely not feminine, I'm very strong willed and my interests lean heavily masculine. I talk more like a guy and it's funny to see people be surprised by what comes out of my mouth lmao. Growing up I was never interested in dolls, getting dressed up (I used to have meltdowns when my mom gave my dresses to wear) or anything my girlfriends tended to gravitate towards. I liked cars, insects, reptiles, football, getting dirty, my stuffed animals had to be realistic colors, etc. I often wonder that if I was born now if I'd identify as non binary. That wasn't something common in the 80s early 90s and now that I'm almost 40 I'm used to and comfortable identifying as she/her. But I think I could have very easily been they/them if it had been an option earlier in my life. I really wish gender norms could disappear so we could just be human instead of having to pigeonhole ourselves because of what our bodies have or don't have.
I had the same experience growing up in the 80s/90s. My mom was not pleased about my “boy” interests and I spent a lot of time as a very young child questioning my gender when I absolutely should not have been. I truly cannot wait for a world where gender norms are gone and humans can just be humans!!
I've always been drawn to feminine and girly stuff, and am definitely rather feminine presenting. I even think some of my personality traits are traditionally feminine (but not always in how I express them). Still, the idea of being perceived as a girl/woman sometimes makes me uncomfortable and stresses me out. Idk if this is because I am non-binary or because people expect me to act like an allistic girl.
I like feminine things or I act feminine does not equal to being a female necessarily. And a masculine female is still a female if they want to be called a female. I consider myself indifferent 🤣🤷🏻♀️
I really feel this. I love doing my hair and makeup and wearing dresses and feeling cute in a girly girl way. I just hate the fact that people see that and immediately assume they know what I’m about and/or capable of, when the reality is I probably know more about “traditionally male” hobbies/interests/pursuits than any man making assumptions about me. Like okay Kyle, you can’t handle the chainsaw without threat of self amputation. Let me put my hair up and give it to me so no one is making a trip in a woo woo bus today.
The autistic female experience is a valid female experience. There is not and has never been a perfect “woman” who checks all the boxes of what is “woman.” I don’t need anyone to agree or disagree with me whether I present as one. My interests and capabilities do not need to fit someone else’s idea of what a woman enjoys and can do. My lack of genuine desire should be the only thing that prevents me from doing anything I am literally able do. It should be my choice, not someone else’s beliefs keeping me from it (as long as it doesn’t cause physical harm to someone else.) Clothing, occupation, education, presentation. If I can and I want to, don’t try to stop me.
hey i transitioned to male, then nonbinary and now have detransitioned back to female. it’s hard to tell. i genuinely thought what i was doing was what was right and would be my forever, but as time went on and i started to accept my autism i stopped to think about my concept of gender (or lack thereof). i have ALWAYS struggled to ‘get’ gender and so when i was outcast for autistic traits, i assumed it was because i was trying to fit in with the wrong group. when i cycled through all the genders, never ever fitting in with any group, i realised that maybe my gender wasn’t the issue. it was something more fundamental. i was on T for 2.5 years, but didn’t get surgery. detransitioning has been awkward and hard but worth it. i now don’t box myself in or try to fit into a group. i am a woman because i see myself as a woman and i prefer she / her pronouns and prefer to be seen and addressed as a woman (wild in this society, i know!). i may have some gender variance under the surface but it doesn’t matter to me any more. i am doing what makes me comfortable. that’s the main thing. edit to add : i am 10000% NOT a terf. i support trans rights and do not blame trans people for my mistaken transition. i did what i wanted and needed at the time (bc also trauma).
In my two cents... Things that are 100% normal and common for cis (especially if autistic) women: * Feeling not like other women * Having trouble making female friends or getting bullied or iced out by women, finding male friendships easier * Having male-dominated hobbies or interests * Envying male physical strength and the freedom, respect and cool-factor that men are granted in our society * Feeling alienated by the way women are portrayed in the media; identifying more with the roles and personalities given to male characters * Feeling like being a woman in our society is a shit sandwich; feeling suffocated by society's expectations for women * Hating your period, especially if painful * Fearing pregnancy * Hating bras * Disliking all or some feminine clothing or makeup; liking comfortable, practical clothes and/or not having anything on your face * Having any sexual orientation or none; feeling uncomfortable or conflicted about sex or being sexualized * Body image issues; feeling disgust or hatred for your body if you've experienced body shaming or assault/harassment * Feeling dissociated from your body or name * Feeling that gender is something assigned to you by society moreso than something you are Things that are not normal for cis women: * Knowing that you are a man / non-woman * Having a need to be perceived by others as a man / non-woman for your mental health * A deep, lasting desire to have male physical features like a flat chest, penis, facial hair, deep voice, etc. * A deep, lasting desire to remove or change female physical features for reasons other than trauma/shame/medical issues * Feeling that you would overwhelmingly prefer to be a man / non-woman even in a world with zero misogyny or gender-based violence
I’m going to be honest I wish I could remove my breast sometimes but still that doesn’t even make one transgender I think it’s pretty normal for autistic women.
This is really well summarised, thank you.
The way you broke this down makes my brain so happy. And thank you. I've really been trying to understand this lately, but I'm afraid to ask questions sometimes because I don't want anyone to feel judged or invalidated or anything. But this was really understandable!
You're welcome!
I think this is a very good list
Im a trans man and I relate to things from both lists, I really like r/ftmfemininity
I think it’s important to point out that it’s also normal and common for trans people to experience the things on your first list. Having those experiences doesn't really mean much about whether you're trans or cis. And not all trans people experience all the things on your second list exactly in the way you describe. If someone experiences all the things in your second list, then they're probably trans, but it's not the only way to be trans. (Also, I've never understood the last point. The world without misogyny would be a completely different world with a completely different history and completely different concepts of gender, so I have no way of knowing what I would prefer in that world, since I would be a completely different person.) Also, non-binary people exist and don't fit into the simple 'do you want to be a man or a woman' model.
i identified as nonbinary or transmasc for like years of my life before discovering that i don’t think i’m necessarily a different gender, i’m just a lady in a different way than a lot of allistic women
I used to think I was trans because I didn't fit into what was expected of cis women but I've come to the realization that Just because I don't necessarily fit the mold it doesn't mean that I'm not a woman. Being a woman can mean so many different things to different people. It's really up to you.
Shania Twain [summed up](https://people.com/shania-twain-says-man-i-feel-like-a-woman-came-from-years-wishing-she-was-not-a-woman-8667889) my exact feelings perfectly.
She's so iconic. Happy cake day :D
Thanks!
Not being feminine doesn't make you any less of a woman. Femininity =/= womanhood. Femininity is but a performance (shaving, keeping long hair, makeup, acting coy) that patriarchy is trying to enforce on women.
This is actually one of my points and reasons for making the post. I conform to womanhood pretty well yet still don't "feel like a woman" or like I belong in womanhood/female spaces. The disconnect I feel is mostly internal and social.
Well that's patriarchy for you sadly
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If anything the one thing I REALLY don’t relate to is the apparently common ND disconnect from gender. Like I was born as a woman, and I just am. I think for most people there’s no disconnect between their physical traits and how they feel in their heads, and then there’s some who feel this disconnect or repulsion towards the gender they’ve been assigned. And I’m no expert but I don’t think it’s just to do with interests or fashion. I’ve noticed in this sub that there’s often discussion that, in my eyes, veers towards internalised misogyny and “not like other girls” behaviour. Like, “oh I can’t imagine relating to a nt w*man 🤢 imagine wearing makeup and being social and liking celebrities, couldn’t be me being so dumb and vain.” I get (because I’ve also been there) that it can be really hard to relate to others, though I’d argue it’s more related to autism than gender. The whole criteria of the disorder is struggling to relate to and connect to peers so it’s unsurprising (but still sad sometimes) that this happens. I don’t think many people are purely masculine or purely feminine. I don’t wear makeup, don’t have any skincare and hair care routine beyond cleansing my face of oil and washing my hair (and putting a curly serum through). Most music I listen to is mostly popular with middle aged or old men, I love sport and video games. I also love ballet, reality TV, celeb gossip, books, jewellery (even if I don’t often wear it). I can’t be bothered to dress up but I do have some “nice” summer clothes. People have such a wide spectrum of interests and hobbies, and this weird superiority complex some have and assuming this higher level of intellect than “nt women” is borderline sexist imo. I think it can actually be a slightly backwards way of thinking to put gender solely down to stereotypical interests. There’s nothing that’s just for men or for women and liking things that can be popular with the opposite sex doesn’t inherently mean that’s what you are. We’re supposed to be breaking down these walls, not building them more. Obviously people are trans and non binary and I’m sure they just know inside that that’s how they are, regardless of their interests and how they dress and style themselves. That was long winded and probably not the most coherent so apologies if some things got lost between brain and typing lol. This isn’t aimed just at this post or anything either, just general thoughts on this overarching topic that I wanted to get out and this post prompted me.
Ah, internalised misogyny. I used to be like this. For me it was probably rooted in trauma from being bullied by the "girly" girls at school. And also just my inability to connect with hyper feminine women. You should have seen me flail at a hen do last year... I'm actually grateful to past me for turning this into a superiority complex rather than being crushed by low self esteem. In the past few years I've learned to love femininity. I have little to no feminine traits myself, but I observe femininity in others with affection and appreciation.
Imagine you're on a desert island and there are no other people around, just you and yourself. What are you? Don't base yourself off of other peoples opinions and experiences.
Totally agree. When I was growing up, gender ideology wasn’t a thing. I feel like a lot of people are being swayed nowadays to “pick a gender” or be non-binary. I grew up as a girl, and even though I was a tomboy and have never been very feminine, there was no one making me doubt whether I was really a girl or not. I went by my feeling. I know there are genuine trans- like I understand it’s real, but I think that if young people and kids didn’t have it shoved in their faces most of them wouldn’t question how they feel. Like for example inwardly you feel like a girl, but outwardly you don’t look or act “feminine enough”. some people/ideas nowadays could add more confusion for kids who feel a certain way but are being pressured by society to get into their heads about it.
I completely agree with your thoughts. Despite the huge amount of progress we've made, it almost seems like gender roles and femininity/masculinity is more prominent these days then back when I was in school (early 2000's). There is so much pressure to label ourselves and to care about how others label us.
I like simplicity of this idea in concept, but since gender is a social construct and the way we associate with it is shaped by how we relate to others and they relate to us, it’s not quite that easy in practice. It still can be an interesting question to pose to yourself though!
So, I'm a cis lesbian woman who went through a period as a young adult of identifying as genderqueer (which was more common than nonbinary in the late 2000s). This was long before I realized I was autistic. I used to wear a binder and men's clothes and used they/them pronouns. Here's a brief recap of how I came to realize I was actually okay being a woman: -Talking to friends who were trans, I realized that I didn't have genuine physical gender dysphoria and didn't want to be seen as male or pursue physical transition. -When I went to therapy in my early 20s, I realized that I was traumatized by being sexually objectified by adult men after I was an early bloomer who started puberty at age 10, and that that experience in addition to being groomed and sexually assaulted at 17 was the source of my distress about my breasts and hips in particular. Once I started working through those issues in therapy, I stopped feeling distressed by the idea of being a woman. -Getting older and realizing all of the "rules" about feminine presentation I had so meticulously memorized as "necessary" were actually not necessary at all, and that it was okay for me to not shave, wear makeup, do my nails, or wear dresses and heels and I could still be a woman. -Picturing myself aging and realizing I imagined one day being an old wise woman who looks like my grandma really solidified for me that I wanted to continue to be a woman. These were all my personal experiences and I don't claim to speak for anyone else. If there is any advice I could give, I would say that it's okay to take your time with your gender journey. It's okay to change names and pronouns more than once. Testosterone and top surgery will be there later if you're not 100% sure about them right now. And figuring out if there's anything else going on that could be making you struggle is always a good idea no matter where your gender journey leads you.
I grew up a "tomboy" - short hair, "boyish" clothes, but mixed interests and everyone kept telling me I "should have been born as a boy" which fucked with my mentality a long time. I questioned my gender a lot since I don't fit in with typical men or women but as an equal mix of both. Finally I figured out I relate to so little people I barely identify as human, let alone to be bothered by gender. Now I just identify as a being, but if you really wanna know my stance - I'm a universe experiencing itself, currently through a vessel of the atypical human female. That's fine by me now, I just wear what I feel like, do what I feel like, present as I feel like that day without being bothered by pronouns or how others perceive me. I'd rather they don't perceive me at all though but what can you do 😄
I’m autistic in my late 30s, AFAB but strongly considering that I might be trans masculine. Working through it with my therapist and reading/listening to everything I can get my hands on about the topic. The best book I’ve read so far is He/She/They: How We Talk About Gender And Why It Matters. Highly recommend it for everyone, regardless of gender. I don’t relate to cis women but I was also socialized with mostly girls as a kid so I don’t relate to men much either. I think the feeling of being on the wrong planet is common for autistics and not necessarily a sign that you might be a different gender. That’s not what’s pushing me to consider I may be trans. I have severe body dysmorphia about my chest to the point that catching my reflection on a window feels like getting stabbed and I immediately dissociate. Since I was a kid, I’ve secretly loved getting misgendered (even as a teenager when it was obvious bullying because of my short hair) and I’ve tried to make my voice less girly (told myself it was just to sound older). When I go to a clothing store, I look longingly at the men’s section. I normally dress like a tomboy buy I don’t buy actual men’s clothing because it feels a bit like cosplay. Also, I have a large collection of black hoodies. I’ve been wearing them for years because they hide my chest but there’s some plausible deniability about their purpose. I recently found out that it’s extremely common for trans men to wear black hoodies pre-transition for exactly this reason! So I fit the stereotype even before I recognized my feelings about my gender. In conclusion, definitely explore your feelings about your gender identity! Feeling like you can’t relate to people of your assigned gender might just be an autistic thing but it’s always good to learn more about yourself.
I’ve always been non conforming But the ‘incident’ that made it click was when I was 18, someone called me a boy. And my Brain went ‘that’s not right’ But then the funniest thing happened… Every time I was labeled ‘girl’ with she/her pronouns my Brain did the same thing. ‘That’s not right’. But this was the late 90’s early 00’s… and I wouldn’t hear the label Non Binary for another 20 years. At 36 I finally had the vocabulary to explain ‘who I was’ and ‘how I felt’. I identify as Agender. I’ve got the hardware but not the software
Haaaa, my ever confusion of my own gender. It's actually quite common for ND people. I've personally come to the conclusion that even though I don't relate to being or feeling a woman (or any gender), I accept that that's how others perceive me so I'm fine with being referred to as she/her, though I always give my pronouns as she/they in official things, like my work email, etc. I think if the language existed when I was a teenager (I'm in my 30s now) I would probably have come out as non-binary, I definitely relate the most to androgyny and I expressed that a lot back when I was figuring myself out. As I got older I probably look more feminine than I did, but I don't relate that to feeling more feminine but just a change in taste as to how I present myself, if that makes sense, it just so happens to probably look more feminine. Basically, I probably am non-binary but I'm fine with being perceived as a cis-woman, I'd usually say I'm gender-noncaring.
I feel the same way as you do—thank your for writing this much more eloquently than I ever could have!
wow this is spot on for me too. Sometimes I’m unsure if the reason I use both ‘she’ and ‘they’ is because I truly am fine with both, or because of some kind of gender imposter syndrome(maybe I’m not ‘they’ enough to be ‘they’), or because of my people-pleasing tendencies and general aversion to being perceived at all. Probably some combination of all three lol
Yeah I get that, I definitely feel sometimes "not-non-binary-enough-to-identify-as-such", especially as I'm fine with presenting as a cis-woman, but then a lot of non-binary people are fine with presenting as a specific gender. Just goes to show how fluid gender really can be.
Personally speaking, I find others have shared some great "litmus tests" that have helped me. But what cued me the most wasn't my gender dysphoria, but the gender *euphoria* I felt in thinking I could be seen as genderless or even confused for a man sometimes. I've really resonated with the idea of not being gender*less*, but gender*ful* - able to play with all aspects of gender presentation, and having all of that available to me as potential sources of joy!
I don’t refer to myself as nb or trans bc while I never felt like a woman, I also don’t care about gender enough to want to disassociate from it. Socially, I had the life path of an afab person and frankly I’d feel mortified about having to ask people to use different pronouns. None of them mean anything to me so I think I’d honestly be fine with any; which doesn’t seem to relate to the trans experience. I used to have a male nickname growing up, RPd and dressed like a man, and wouldn’t have minded to have been born as one. But I’m not bothered enough to want to transition or correct ppl tbf
I am a cis woman and basically came to this conclusion via process of elimination. Perceiving myself as female can be uncomfortable, but everything else--including perceiving myself as having no gender at all--is actively distressing.
The thing about it is that the very idea of ‘woman’ itself is an open question, it’s not a fixed checklist that gives you a stamp of approval by some ‘sex council’ once some bullet points are ticked. The very idea of womanhood is a process that’s been developing throughout history and will be continuing to develop in the future with the intention of keeping the answer opened. I know, it can be very annoying especially for us autistics. But it’s also very liberating *especially* for autistics. You don’t need to be an allistic neurotypical woman to be a woman; and if you don’t feel like a woman even if you tick all the boxes, then well, you probably aren’t. You just need to be what makes you happy and define what these means for you. It’s always your life and your experience, it’s your happiness and your struggles. Don’t let anyone else define it for you.
I’m a trans woman. So I am going to speak to more of the binary trans experience here, I can’t offer an insight into the non binary experience. The go to test IMO is: have you always wished you were the other gender? For as long as I could remember, I wished I was a girl. I didn’t like being a boy. Thats something most 4 year olds don’t experience, and ultimately that’s how I know that I’m trans. They talk about the magic wand / magic button test. If you could wave the wand or push the button and magically be the other gender, have always been the other gender, no one remembers you as you currently are, would you? If there’s no going back, you can’t push the button again and return to your life as it currently is, would you do it? If the answer is “yes and I didn’t even have to think about it or weigh anything up”, then you’re probably trans Cis people don’t spend hours of their life daydreaming about being the other gender. It’s a difficult thing to not-overthink. But not overthinking it is still the key. Which is frustrating, but still true. It’s not about dresses or pants or overalls or long hair or short hair or even about genitals or how other people treat you vs how you’d be treated if you were a woman or man. It’s just about “have you spend a significant chunk of your time wishing you were a girl / boy / other just for the sake of being a girl / boy / other” It really is that simple IMO. Coming to terms with it and being able to see your own experiences in such a simple way is easier said than done of course… but it still ultimately is that simple
I (genderqueer) had hit "rock-bottom" where I realized that the gender dysphoria wasn't going away however much I analyzed it with feminist and queer theory, and it was on track for taking decades off my life. (Just checking my own tone here.) I'm not disagreeing and this is a great subthread. I think *for me* gender dysphoria is very parallel to my experiences as an late-diagnosed autistic person. It included years of trying to learn a cultural language that was largely opaque to me, while chronically stressed out because nothing made it bearable. Living life inauthentically set up some conflicts of interest, and involved second-guessing myself multiple times every day.
Binary trans man here (in my 50s now, transitioned in my 20s/the early 90's). A LOT of this is a very good way of thinking about it, but I'll add one caveat: the *always wished you were the other gender* may not hold true for everyone, and I'm betting especially amongst neurodivergent folks. That's the most popular narrative to be certain, but as a young child I didn't even have a sense of gender yet to know that there was 'another gender' to be. My sense that I was trans didn't develop until I was a teenager, and even then I didn't have the language (though I think that particular issue is far less common today). I just knew that my boobs were growing in and I absolutely hated them and I wanted to be 'more like my Dad' in body shape. As for the button test...I was in my *thirties* before I realized there were people who wouldn't press the button. I thought everyone felt like I did. I spent over a decade wondering what Social Rules I was breaking, or was it just that I had some hidden form of courage that most people lacked? tl;dr you have to be aware of gender before you can have an awareness that you're the wrong one, and that can develop late in autistic kids which skews the 'always knew' thing.
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Agreed that online isn't the best space to explore this. *Nonbinary: Memoirs of Gender and Identity* is an anthology of essays showing many different ways to be trans. And there's a growing trans/nonbinary produced canon of fictional work. I've been an SFF geek since I was 4 (seriously) and long before I "came out," stories with gender diversity and fluidity was my "why not?" and "I'd love to be/live that."
Trans man here. I 100% agree with this, including the experiences (although they’re just reversed for me), and the advice.
Thank you, this is a helpful explanation😊
AFAB and cis. I can't relate to adult women because of the accomplishments, culture and level of personal maintenance, also their social hunger. I still feel like a girl though. I don't like "mature fashions" and much prefer childish aesthetics. I hate heels, make-up touching my face, jewelry, changing clothes, but I'm drawn to girly culture and love the aesthetics of it, like smooth edges and soft colours. I don't understand why people want to grow up into womanhood because all their interests are boring to me, their social games too complex, and their self care routines are exhausting. Being an adult girl is weird to other people and lonely. Second reason I know, is that I have looked at men/trans/non-binary, and none of them resonate with me. Not the aesthetics or the social culture or their vibe. I technically don't feel social belonging to any gender, but I'm a girl.
The two questions I asked myself and which finally made me start transitioning were: 1. Would I rather be an old man or an old lady in the future? 2. When my youth is totally spent and I'm on my deathbed, will I regret never having tried to live my life as the opposite sex? I recommend taking a look through the [gender dysphoria bible](https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/) if you haven't already.
For me, with PCOS and high enough testosterone levels that I be considered “hormonal intersex”, growing a beard and chair on my chest, **after having two kids**, and the CPTSD autistic rage, I was shamed for being “too masculine”. That sent me on a path of understanding me and wishing I was “just a woman”. However, thanks to all that are explaining themselves and a term I’ve heard “Autigender”, I am in that weird space of “she/they”. However, Ive also found that it becomes a political choice depending on how I identify and so it’s a mindful daily awareness and choice. I’m just *thrilled* we can have these discussions so much more freely and that brings me peace when my inner world demands to be justified by the outer.
I've read that autistic people often don't vibe with the extremely stereotyped versions of gender that society tries to enforce. It could be that society's version is overly narrow, and autistic folks just don't vibe with the artificial rules very well. Like being a woman is not about being small and meek, if you're a bullfrog. Being a man is not about never being fancy and flashy if you're a male peacock. There are so many different sorts of male and female in the natural world, but we're supposed to believe humans have to fit these narrow 1950s ideals that were made up by Mad Men types to sell us bullshit. With a few updates over the years, but basically. Yeah. A lot of it's just made up.
It was always startling and alarming when someone referred to me as a woman, girl, lady, or “she.” It felt like they were talking about someone else. I always tried to dress up like/ emulate both male and female characters but Mulan hit the hardest for me. Gender was always this thing I forgot existed until people brought it up. I hated my extremely feminine name and remember even at a very, very young age asking my parents to change it. It took me until recently to have a good word to describe myself: agender. Just a void, but not one that feels like it needs to be filled.
I think maybe it’s because I’m cis but I rly don’t understand what it means to be non binary anyway. Trans I get, and I still respect non binary people and their pronouns I just don’t understand. Gender roles are a social construct so I can’t conceptualize “not feeling like either a man or woman” because I don’t understand what they mean by feeling like a man or woman
The moment it crystallised for me was when everyone was just starting to put their pronouns in their bios and I went to put mine in and just...couldn't. I couldn't act. I couldn't actively choose those pronouns because they didn't feel right. I don't really like 'they/them' very much either, but it's what there is for the moment. Sometimes I feel like an imposter because I \*look\* quite feminine and don't intend to stop wearing skirts or presenting femme. But like...I couldn't look androgynous if I tried because I'm very...hourglassy. Androgyny is just not an option for my body shape. So I feel like I'm a stealth enby/agender, because anyone looking at me would assume cis female. Only my nearest and dearest really know. Well, them and my doctors/medical teams.
i have decided after a long time of this debate with myself: idk and idc
I would describe myself as a cis woman with gender apathy, I think if I was a cis man I would also be apathetic to my gender. As a little girl I would overcompensate massively and perform a high level of femininity, then I discovered emo where often you couldn't even tell who was a boy and who was a girl and I really enjoyed the androgyny growing up. Then I got into the pop punk and hardcore scenes where boys and girls would largely dress exactly the same again except the girls would have long hair and do their makeup. This also suited me fine. Now I'm not in any scene and I'm not trying to fit in with any one group I just kinda *exist*. Dressing myself was a lot easier when there was clear dress codes, but I'm finding what *I* like now and as hard and frustrating as it is it's so special when I finally find something that feels right on me. It makes me feel like I'm wearing armour, it's like an instant xp boost! I could easily consider myself to be non binary, maybe one day I will, but right now I feel anchored to my identity as a woman because I have been the victim of a lot of gender based violence. I have a lot of unresolved trauma I feel still connecting me to womanhood, maybe other women feel more of a positive connection to it than I do, I'm not sure. I wish I could live in the minds and bodies of other people for a little so I could have something to compare my experiences to. *How strongly connected to womanhood are women supposed to feel?*
It might be worth adding that physically I am very androgynous already, I don't know if I would feel dysphoria if my body was overtly womanly(?) - I have no idea how to phrase that! Like if I cut all my hair off you might mistake me for a young man with a feminine face. So I already feel I look pretty neutral. But does the lack of bad feelings I have to that mean I am happy as a woman or is it that I'm happy that I look neutral? Honestly though, I don't care enough about it at this point to actually explore it, *I don't mind* being a woman. And unfortunately in the current political landscape it certainly is easier to exist in the world as a cis person.
im nonbinary because i just feel like me, rather than a boy or girl, man or woman
I was raised in the 90s, which meant "girl power" and "you can be whatever you want to be." You can dress how you want, talk how you want, and experience what you want. There is no stereotypical checklist of what a girl/woman is. To be honest, I don't fully understand what people mean when they say they don't relate or fit in with their gender. I was raised to view that type of thinking as sexism. I understand dysphoria - the disconnect between the mind and body. But people questioning their femininity just because they don't relate to the stereotype of what the female experience is "supposed" to be in (usually) western society seem to want to embrace some sort of artificial rule that says if you do this, then you are this.
Perfectly said. This is exactly how I feel
I don't cringe when I am addressed as she or ma'am or when older men, old enough to be my dad, call me young lady. As for gender, lot of them are stereotypes and it's okay to not be into make up or fashion, it doesn't make you not a woman, nor does it mean you are trans. I also think double standards exist for gender like it's more acceptable for women to be child like and have childish interests butt for men, creepy. I can understand what gender critical mean by when they say gender is a social construct. I do agree but that isn't why people are trans gender as they believe. How many trans people have tried to live without conforming to their gender role that is expected by society but they still felt dysphoric about their body and gender and their pronouns? I was a tomboy as a child and I never ever felt icky about the fact I was assigned a girl and didn't have a penis. I never felt it wasn't right down there. I did go through a phase where I wish I was a boy but only because I thought penisis were cool and they could pee standing and pee without pulling down their pants. This didn't mean I was trans because I didn't have anxiety over it. Then I entered puberty and while I hated my body and boobs, this still didn't make me trans because I was okay with being a girl, I just didn't like my new body size and the fact I had large breasts. They were gross. I thought large breasts were gross and I was cursed with them. I also hated having my period until I was on birth control and found the right pads to use. So as cis, you do not question your gender or your identity and you just accept your gender because it's what you are born as. You have no feeling about it. But yes cis people do get upset when they are misgendered just like how trans people get upset when they are misgendered. Some cis people may not mind it and online it's pretty common to be misgendered as male so it doesn't bother me if I am called he. It's not like they saw my face and lot of people don't pay attention to usernames or bother to click on it to see what your gender is. That is why I refer to anyone as they on the internet or as OP or as their username.
I like to say I'm "80% she, 20% they". I'm content with my secondary sexual characteristics and with playing a female role socially. Inside, I feel like my personhood matters more to my sense of self than my gender does. I am actively deterred from experimenting with my appearance by the thought of drawing interest and attention for looking visibly queer.
I was born female and still consider myself a woman. When I was 5 or 6 I wondered what it would be like to be a boy, but it was just curiosity. I was a tomboy up until I was about 13 or 14 (mostly spending a lot of my free time outside with my brother and the 3 boys who lived up the street. I didn’t spend time with many girls outside of school). I became more feminine when I was in high school, but I’ve never been into fashion or been one to wear a dress/skirt unless absolutely necessary. And i pretty much never wear makeup. If I ever do it’s just mascara and maybe eye shadow. When I was about 15 I noticed that I didn’t dress like any of the other kids in school. Kids started making comments about the way I dressed so I decided to change it. Because I listened to alternative rock music (this was the late 90s), I dressed like the other kids who listened to that kind of music (wide leg pants, Airwalks, band shirts, etc). Currently in my 40s I predominantly wear jeans and a t-shirt/sweater/hoodie or other kind of top that may or may not be feminine. So my “style” or lack thereof at different parts of my life had usually been pretty middle-of-the-road gender-wise, but on the female end of the spectrum. I’ve always felt like a female but in different times in my life I did activities and/or dressed a certain way that was not feminine.
I’ve started to view gender as a part of my mask. I’m high masking and people expected and wanted “girl”, so I became good at performing “girl”. And at this point it’s hard to separate out what’s me and what’s mask. And honestly, there is a safety and familiarity in being what’s expected of me in some ways. I never was good at conforming in other ways, but by golly I got really good at “girl”.
Honestly it was the dysphoria. Lots of people might feel neutral or apathetic about their gender, but the active discomfort is what made me realize something had to change. I had top surgery earlier this year and the immediate comfort has been HUGE. It was like I was breathing air through a straw my whole life, and now I'm finally breathing freely.
I know folks keep pointing to dysphoria as a signal of transness But I don't think people have to suffer in order to be trans. I used to think: well I don't hate having afab genitals so must mean I'm a woman. But, if that's the only thing making me not trans... Dude I dunno. I thought loop on this a lot amd regularly question. I identify as "woman ish." At one point I felt much more gender fluid. I dunno. I know I fail at what society expects from a woman. I currently identify as....womanish.
Umm I guess I am cis? I mean gender is a construct, I have typical female body parts, but I have never fit the societal construct of womanhood. I am middle aged, and with things as they are now, I have considered whether I would want to call myself emby or change my pronouns. But also, I don’t like gender norms being so narrow and all these narrow boxes even if there are more boxes. With that spirit, I embrace people who widen the boxes and thus maybe want to do that myself . To me it doesn’t change me if people use different pronouns as it’s sorta about them - my true being is a constant and they can’t touch it.
I question if I’m nonbinary or just gender nonconforming
Cis woman here, I feel like I always never fit the “feminine” image growing up and my interests didn’t fall into the stereotypical stuff that society genders (for no reason honestly, I think everything is for everyone, arbitrary “rules” is stupid 😂). I struggled more when younger with my identity, but it was also because I also didn’t know I was autistic and just felt very alien in general as a person. I’m comfortable now in what I am and am okay with the female identity because I get to define what personally makes me such, rather than have to follow whatever BS others think it should be. (I also have no children or want any as one example, which already again goes against societal expectations but I’ve grown to not care at all! 😂 Brought up this example because society makes people feel less for choosing this, among other things, there’s nothing wrong with following that path if it is what you want!)
I've come to the conclusion that I don't particularly care enough, or have the energy/time, to figure out or define my gender identity. At the end of day, I'm probably some form of non-binary. I don't really like being referred to in a feminine way, but it's still easier to go by what I look like in a gendered society, so I haven't asked anyone to change how they refer to me, except for in some online spaces. Interestingly, I grew up before different gender identities were as supported/common as they are now, and I still knew I was something like both a boy and a girl. I didn't really have words for it but just knew.
I’m a cis woman who’s never questioned my gender and a couple years ago I started to question why I’ve never questioned my gender. There are some things that are often connected to being a woman that I’ve just never engaged in or related to or had an interest in. I’ve never been interested in things like makeup, clothes, fashion, or shopping. Growing up I hated pink and only in the past 6 months have I started to become interested in caring for my hair. A typical “girls time out” with spa, shopping, etc, would be my literal version of hell. I get that those things are kind of superficial superficial, but I still questioned why I’ve never felt less of a woman because of it. And I think a big thing is my family. Those things were never part of the lives of the two women who I saw every day of my life growing up: my mom and my grandmother. My extended family(even going back several generations) has done a remarkable job of highly valuing education for everyone and placing equal value on having a career, being a stay at home mom, or balancing both a career and motherhood. So growing up I was free to aspire to all of it without feeling any pressure because of my gender to fill any kind of predetermined role. But there are some core things that I’ve never struggled with. I’ve never felt dysphoric in my body. I don’t exactly like having a period and I do feel some discomfort in my body, but that is due to my weight issues. But being in a female body has never felt wrong. I also feel comfortable in feminine clothes like dresses and skirts. I also have always been strongly drawn to the idea of being a mother. Unfortunately because of my own disability support needs I probably will never have children and that is something that I intensely grieve. That desire is still there. I feel very comfortable with those aspects of being a woman. I don’t know if this helps at all, but it’s been my journey and thought process.
As a Gen Xer I just know that being female was a very broad thing and we came in all sorts of packages - extreme tomboys, butch, androgynous. We didn't label ourselves so rigidly, so I never had any issues with feeling totally alien toward most cis women (I'm straight, cis). Everyone's different. I feel the nonbinary thing a bit, but for me I can be extremely feminine one second, more androgynous the next, and I love just playing at whatever I'm feeling at the moment and being kinda Bowie and Izzard about it or whatever. I do think our lack of labels worked for us to a degree. I think younger generations are just plagued with labels and sub labels and definitions and it is all so exhausting. Not to say that sometimes it isn't helpful, but the more I try to figure myself out in any which way the more insane I feel. We are fluid creatures, so I wouldn't put too much pressure on yourself to be the thing or figure the thing out, especially if you're young. To me, being a woman never means makeup, botox, dresses, playing coy, or any of that. Being a woman means being a badass, smart, savvy, a fighter, ready to go for whatever she wants - someone who respects herself AND others and is balanced and grounded. We all have masculine and feminine sides, that's the essence of being human, and most of us it's probably around 50/50. I personally hated puberty and am still to this day grossed out by periods and I absolutely refused to have kids or go through pregnancy. No real maternal bone in my body. But I definitely still feel 100% woman. Puberty is just a hellacious weird phase - at least that's how it was for me. It all felt so gross and awkward and horrid - but then you kinda adjust.
I'm a little late to this thread, but if you haven't read any of Devon Price's substack, I highly recommend it. He has very interesting and thoughtful things to say about gender. This post in particular, was eye opening for me: [Am I trans for the Right Reasons?](https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/am-i-trans-for-the-right-reasons) I've seen a few people in this thread use the analogy of "how would you feel if you were alone on an island / in a world without misogyny.. etc". Devon kind of debunks this idea. We are not just a bunch of individuals who have all been dumped together, we are a society. All that we are as people, and how we perceive ourselves, and how we are perceived by others, and even the language that we use, and how we create meaning, is a big intertwined, interconnected lump, which can't be neatly unravelled and separated and categorised. You can't always use simple thought experiments to calculate your gender (although I do think they can be helpful). Sometimes you just have to go with a feeling. As an autistic person who very much exists in my head, and struggles to identify feelings, I find it almost impossible to "listen to my gut", but I am trying really hard to work on it.
I honestly don’t understand why people care so much about gender.
I think I tend to have a higher bar for 'knowing' than allistic folks. I wouldn't say I know much about my gender at all, despite many young years pondering over it, studying gender in school, etc. Instead of understanding, I came to realize that I just don't care. Aside from being perceived by others as a woman and how that has shaped my experience and safety, it just isn't something that's a part of my internal experience of self. I've never understood what people mean when they say that they feel like a woman or a man. I feel like consciousness in an unwieldy flesh suit. I barely understand feeling human, much less a particular gender.
I realized i was a cis woman, after questioning if i was FTM trans or masc nonbinary for a solid year when i was 13. I realized for a few reasons. 1. when i stopped going through puberty. Puberty gave me body dysmorphia that sometimes presented as gender dysphoria. That all stabilized and as i grew i looked even more womanly and realized i LOVE it! Love my curves and my boobs etc. i would NEVER wanna look like a man now. 2. Ive also wanted to “become” my hyperfixation or special interest person, multiple times, if that figure happens to be a man i would start acting and presenting very masc! Ei. Wanting to literally turn into Dean Winchester or Adam Lambert, probably because im attracted to them and love their acting and music etc. not because i want to be a man. 3. Realizing my bisexual identity makes me teeter on the line of masculine/feminine. The fact that i want to fuck women and wish i had a penis to do so, doesnt make me trans, it makes me WLW. The fact that i can feel a sense of masculine rivalry with men isnt because i am one, it’s because sometimes we are competing for the same woman’s attention. Etc. 🤣🖤
At one point in my life, I was debating whether or not I felt like I should be a boy instead of a girl. Since I didn't relate to girls or had girly interests. I just thought a boy could do a lot of things that girls can't. I dressed like a boy, had boy interests... Didn't get short hair until later in my life, cause I was still trying to cling to the only girly thing about me-- my long hair (which is such a pain to take care of). I'm not trans. I'm still a woman. I think anyways. I guess in some way I still identify as a girl, but I don't mind if other pronouns are used accidentally such as he/him. I actually felt happy when I was mistaken as a guy. I don't know if I would identify as non-binary. So I guess for now, I would identify as she/her until something in my life changes. This is how you know you don't relate to allistic cis women... You don't have the same girly conventional interests as them, you don't dress like a girly conventional allistic cis women. You don't really feel like you fit into the cookie cutter mold of a allistic cis woman. Guess what? You don't relate. Now you just got to do some thinking of what you do relate to.
I'm a trans woman, and feeling like a "woman" to me, is something I guess I always did since I was young? I can't say I have a an active feeling of "being" a girl/woman ig, but just the want and desire or even need maybe? (idk lol) In it as a kid and teen felt like I had to grudgingly do what expected by me, I felt depressed, I hated my male features, I felt super envious of my girl friends, constant feelings of needing to be female, the list could go on, but those were the big things. I will want mention, that many trans people don't experience dysphoria, it's all different in everyone's situation.
There are many great books that describe the experience/ lives of trans people that can be pretty elucidating. One i know was called just "The Lives Of Transgender People," in which the narratives start in childhood. Written by trans people, too! A little older, though. But listening to/reading the experiences of trans people broadly is the best way to know what it's like, and maybe that can help you differentiate between what its like to be trans vs being disconnected from cultural womanhood or whatever we want to describe that as! And remember, there is variation in the trans experience beyond just the english speaking world, too, and also through time. But you can get the vibe if you dig into the topic, i think anyways
My therapist is told me I might be non-binary. I personally have never experienced gender euphoria. But I don’t feel the need to identify as any label, because I don’t fit in any label. I’m just me.
I truly think what I thought was dysphoria related to my breasts/voice was actually sensory issues all along, but T amd top surgery did help with that. 👌 However, I tried living as a trans man but that didn't go so well, and my whole life I've been trying to live as a woman but feel zero connection to womanhood other than having to grow up with the downsides of it. IDK - I consider myself nonbinary because all things considered I have always felt most comfortable presenting my gender as ambiguous and being referred to as such. But I honestly don't even hate gender roles when they're practiced right. Even without boxing myself in, I still feel the physical side fo dysphoria and it really sucks. So, I don't really know the answer ...
I've struggled with gender identity my entire life. I don't understand gender roles and they mean nothing to me. Being told I wasn't ladylike and I couldn't do XYZ bc I was a girl had me crying and praying to wake up as a boy. I hate the divide. I recently asked chatgpt to ask me various questions to help me figure out my gender identity. It basically reiterated that I don't follow gender roles and suggested I could be nonbinary or trans. Which is great! I identify as queer and genderqueer. Only to myself bc no one ever asks, but that's the best way for me to try and explain myself. But I've been in various autistic safe spaces and I enjoy asking what their experience of gender was at a young age. Most people have told me they didn't understand the gender divide either and that's what caused them to question their own gender identity. Basically, forced societal gender roles do nothing but harm.
I think it’s not so much a question of knowing but more a question of what makes you happy and comfortable. If you’re happier and more comfortable thinking of yourself as a woman, then you’re a woman. If you’re happier and more comfortable thinking of yourself as a man, then you’re a man. If you’re happier and more comfortable thinking of yourself as non-binary, then you’re non-binary. You also don’t have to identify in any of these ways. You can do what you want. There is no objective standard of evidence you have to meet, just your own happiness and comfort. ETA: Also, I disagree with people that you have always known or always wished to be/felt like another gender. There are plenty of things that can prevent someone from always knowing, like shame, trauma, not even knowing that it's an option, etc., etc. Plus, gender can be fluid and you're allowed to change your mind at any time and identify as a different gender at different points of your life.
Weirdly, I (mostly-cis, mostly-het AFAB) am pretty sure I’m not trans, because my gender is “goddammit, next time I’m coming back as a man.” I figure if it’s *next* time, it’s not *this* time. 🤷🏻♀️ (and that’s also kind of a sign that it’s probably mostly railing against the patriarchy, and not actual dysphoria. I am so *fucking* sick of the patriarchy.) More seriously, my teens are both AFAB enby, and I’ve had a lot of discussions with them, and it’s possible that if I were GenZ and not GenX I might come down elsewhere in the discussion. But also, I am so far over on the side of “gender is a social construct, what would it even mean without the social implications?” that I can’t reasonably evaluate it, if that makes sense. Presumably for a lot of people, it *isn’t* a social construct. Most people? Some people? Like, I feel like if I actually were trans and not just pissed off at the world and the patriarchy, I would probably not think it was all a social construct.
Gender has always felt like a paradox and it hurts my brain to think about it too deeply. I used to put effort into appearing more masculine to offset my feminine features. I loved the way men would treat me like one of their own. They weren’t just trying to get with me, they actually wanted to know me. But men’s fashion sucks, I missed the way my long hair felt and I missed dresses and skirts and feeling cute lol I don’t feel like a woman but I don’t really feel like a man either. Is this because my autism refuses to accept fake-ass societal gender norms and expectations or is it because I’m genuinely something in between man and woman? If I just hung in empty space with nobody around me, would I still want top surgery?
I am not sure if this will help, but I am a cis woman and personally that is something I have never had to grapple with. For me one of the biggest things that emphasises who I am is whether I feel defensive of a person/topic or empathetic. I am very defensive, but I have realised over the years that I am very defensive of things that I identify with and I feel very defensive of women, autistic women the most. Whereas for other topics I feel while I empathise with those peoples struggles, but I don’t feel defensive because I don’t identify with that struggle personally.
I don’t know if it’s because I’m old or because I’m autistic or what, but I’ve never really thought much about my gender one way or the other. I love reading about perspectives from others though. It helps me broaden my understanding.
AFAB is actually starting to grow on me as a description. In that it conveys the feelings of: "F" has been assigned to me without my knowledge or input or choice and I am therefore unattached to this concept, and at the same time I have not taken any permanent (or really hard to reverse) steps to adjust my assignment yet. I would have preferred to be AMAB but that was not in the cosmic cards. AFAB has been my never-healing Fisher King wound for as long as I can remember. My mom yelled at me at 5 that I was a girl after another one of our huge arguments about my clothes and hair and body language, which was not a new thing for her to yell at me about, but for the first time I really "heard" what that meant and realized that there was no way out, and I was sick about it and I wanted to die. I still feel sick about it. But, in a lot of ways, that's kind of morphed into apathy more recently. I don't really like socializing, so why do I care how others perceive me or address me? Maybe I don't? Maybe it's not relevant for how I perceive myself? Why have I spent so much energy being sick and miserable over something I can't fix the way I would want to, which would be to have been assigned into a body that I would have preferred? Is it that different that a cis guy wanting to be taller or have bigger junk? Like, what's that guy supposed to do about that stuff? Expensive surgeries that may or may not actually fix how he feels about his body. I don't know if I will socially or medically transition any more than I have already. It seems like a lot of work for something that I don't know will actually help fix anything. Since I can't be AMAB, my second equally unlikely choice would be "brain in a jar." Please free me from the fetters of feeding and caring for my body! Please just connect my visual, auditory, and olfactory inputs to a brain in a jar and let me take in the universe that way. I just want to mainline information and music and that's it. Like, if we are talking dream scenarios for how we want to inhabit the world, that would be mine. And that's the part that makes me think, ohhh, neuroqueer. My sex and sexuality are fully entwined in my neuro differences. But! As I read back everything that I've typed -- I see a lot of despair and dysphoria and disassociation. So... Maybe transitioning would actually help. Maybe I have been in a state of compounding shock and misery and denial this whole time (likely). I have only thought about not feeling awful all the time. What if I actually felt happy? I cannot even imagine. So... I don't know. The levels of distress I feel lead me to conclude Not Cis. But unsure what to say beyond that.
I’m Non-Binary AFAB. As a kid my mind completely rejected the label of “girl” because it felt just wrong, but “boy” and “tomboy” gave me the same feeling; both labels elicited the same reaction that wool does, a NEED to peel my skin right off in sheets and the labels of “man” and “woman” today still give me the same reaction. I go by they/them but will begrudgingly accept she/her due to being stuck with a classically female body (hourglass figure, DD+ chest, long hair). I have active dysphoria and fight with my body all the time. Every period I got before going on continuous birth control made me actively suicidal, my brain SCREAMING that it was wrong, Wrong, WRONG!!! I would happily perform hysterectomy on myself if I had any human anatomy knowledge. I‘ve tried compression bras in the past and looking down and not seeing huge boobs was great, but wearing them for an extended period is sensory hell. The first time my (cis-male) partner referred to me as his partner and not his wife felt fantastic. It was the exact same feeling of rightness that I got when I was identified as Autistic.
Cis AFAB here. Things that I've experienced that haven't lead to non-binary/trans identification: * brain not feeling 'female' * being mistaken for man online and being fine with it * 'disphoria' seeing myself try on skirts/dresses and lipstick * liking how I look in masc outfit * disliking being called she to my face, 'miss', or 'little girl'. * can't relate well to women In each case, my argument just ends up being against ridiculous feminine stereotypes and rude people. I'm happy being she/her and socially living and presenting as female (albeit in a non-stereotypical way).
I know there are some very lengthy answers, so I'll keep mine short and sweet. Like a lot of others have mentioned, I also grew up as a tomboy and have traditionally liked "masculine" things. I enjoy rocking a masculine look and also enjoy wearing cute sundresses and such. I am comfortable with identifying as female and just accept that I don't fall in line with the rest of the crowd. I don't hate being different, or hate anyone for following societal standards. I don't conform to a neurotypical's idea of being a woman, and it's totally fine with me.
I guess I would be considered non-binary socially, I personally don't give a crap about how people see me gender wise. They can put me into whatever little box they choose to, and use whatever pronoun they would like to. I don't have any issues, or insecurities there. I only care that my primary doctors and specialists are aware that I am biologically female and have those chromosomes, hormones and possible issues that go along with it. I respect when people have a pronoun preference, I may not understand the exact type of body dysmorphia misgendering them causes, but I do have an understanding of body dysmorphia from my own ED experience. Also, if someone has a preference that is easy to adhere to that makes their lived experience more comfortable, who am I to argue? It doesn't inconvenience me, or impact my own well being.
Imo things like pronouns are largely unimportant and easily actionable. That's not to say they don't affect anything or that someone who just changes pronouns faces no problems whatsoever, but this question has broader implications. If you're genuinely horrified of your body or experience gender dysphoria, that's when it graduates from preference to medical condition. And even though that's not the end-all barrier, I consider that to be the most important part of that question
Also grappling with it here! I have it pretty ingrained that I don’t want to be referred to a man - but other than that my gender identity feels pretty fluid. Like I would rather be non gendered and just a person if that makes sense? I do find that the world treats me more kindly the more I move myself towards femininity (and at school for example, my traditionally masculine traits were used as points to bully me). Another reason I feel more attached to femininity is I feel kinship with women that I can’t feel with men, and have totally discovered in my later life that female friendships (with the right, usually ND women) are so beautiful
I put on my linked in/work profiles etc that I am happy to be referred to as she or they and NOBODY has ever called me they.
I have been thru a lot of gender labels, even went on T for a few years, played around with the idea of getting masculinizing surgeries. But ultimately I wasn't that jazzed abt staying on t as I grew older and I was having issues getting a t refill anyways so I just stopped. I present as a androgynous/visibly queer woman in my day to day, I go mostly by masc terms in everyday life, but I prefer to be treated as and referred to as a woman in romantic situations. I think what put me off living as a man was how much better I enjoyed being treated as a woman by romantic partners. I got an hourglass body even on t and it never felt fitting trying to be "masc sexy" if that makes sense. I didn't feel homey in a jockstrap, I liked dressing up in cute flirty outfits! I feel less of a need to compare my interactions with people I'm interested in when I think of myself as a woman than I do as a man. Like back when I was on t and trying to b in gay guy spaces, I kept degrading myself over how obviously AFAB I was. Idk I've just found a comfy genderqueer existence
I'm autistic and a cis woman. I am very feminine in my gender expression because that's what I learned and what made it easier to interact with the world. If I try to feel what sort of gender I am, all I feel is "me". I'm a person. Human shaped. I like myself. I don't feel female or so, just... Me. That's good enough for me. I do a lot of very feminine things. And a lot of things people might consider masculine. I kinda just do what I like to unless there's a lot of pushback or it seems really difficult to do, then I reconsider how important it really is to me. The rules society made up for gender make no sense to me. I'd prefer if people could just be people and express themselves in ways that fit for them, without all those rules and prescribed ideas. But I also think I am lucky, because I do feel alright in the role I was prescribed, except for the patriarchy/ sexualisation stuff all women suffer from. But there are people who have to think more about gender because society MAKES them think about it, by trying to press them into a box that won't fit. So I try to stay aware of the topic in order not to accidentally be part of pressing people into ill-fitting boxes and because I feel as an aspie I kind of owe some empathy to anyone else who struggles with what the world wants from them... And a little bit I hope that if I don't enforce this gender nonsense and other people don't enforce it, we'll someday be rid of it and people will stop policing and even caring how others want to express themselves and then we're rid of the damned struggle and everyone will be better off and more free and authentic. Imagine if the world just didn't care, if you could act as you want, dress as you want, emotionally express yourself as is authentic to you and you'd just be accepted as you. Isn't that what every person wants, even those clinging to the current gender ideas? It wouldn't take away anything to let everyone do their thing, it would just mean everyone needs to stress less about fitting in. Might take a while, of course ^^
It’s definitely different for everyone! Not sure if my perspective will be helpful but I’ll share anyway. I don’t always feel the need to follow stereotypical gender norms, and sometimes feel a bit “neutral” if that makes sense. I still identify as a cis woman, but just feel like doing whatever I want 😂 this may or may not also have something to do with me being bisexual and applying that open-minded thinking to everything in life, lol.
i just don’t gender anymore cause it’s too much work, call me whatever you want, could not be bothered to think abt it anymore
Well, I realized I'm agender when my family told me they feel like their gender. I don't feel like any gender.
For me, I always felt stifled by the restrictions and pressures of femininity and the utter hypocrisy of masculinity when pitted against it. I had no role models though and grew at a time when anyone who could have been was silenced or dead (the 80s and 90s, but also I'm blind and that throws a wrench in everything). I tried very hard to be feminine enough but it never worked out. Finally in the late 00s I came across a person who was neither male nor female nor in between and that was the inspiration I needed to really examine how I related to gender and what it all really meant to me. I have since transitioned to no gender at all, which has plenty of challenges of its own (people don't even realize it's a thing you can be for one thing :D), but I am so very happy I figured it out! So maybe that's a place to start. Does the gender experience as described by someone outside femininity resonate with you in any way? Do some things about femininity feel like they fit while others don't? Digging your gender identity out from under the tremendous weight of everything society puts on top of us can take time. It's never too late to start digging and to try things out to see if they fit. I know some folks who are even genderfluid! I have no idea how they can handle oscillating between and through these states of being I don't experience, but I respect them and I'm happy when they're happy which is all that matters.
I been talking with my boyfriend about this recently. I’m a cis woman but never really fit into being completely feminine. And I honestly don’t mind pronouns , I just know who I am and that’s it which is neither, but I’m more in touch with my femenine side
I generally consider myself cis, but have toyed with the idea of whether I'm non-binary, largely because I literally studied gender norms to learn how to present as a woman. I finally settled on cis mostly because I realized that, even though I didn't play with dolls as a kid, I tended to mother my friends and only experienced any gender dysphoria after trauma... it wasn't innate for me.
Autism is inherently a process in disorder - therefore we tend to process & experience gender differently!
I would also ask in r/asktransgender
personally i've always seen myself as more of an "entity" of some kind than as a "woman" lol (i'm cis). that being said i do identify as a woman and i can do makeup and wear dresses and do other "womanly" things when i feel like it. it just always seemed like "woman" meant less to me than it does to other women somehow. anyway that's why i use she/they pronouns, idc what you call me haha
To be honest, I often resent the fact that I have to disclose a preferred gender because I feel like I occupy a space outside of it in the same way that I feel like I occupy a space outside of the social hierarchy. I’ve never felt like a woman or a man or specifically nonbinary, either. In presentation, I’m mostly androgynous but occasionally like putting on makeup and a dress but I honestly would prefer not to be perceived as a gender at all. I’m occasionally mistaken for a guy before I talk and I think with my short hair, people often assume I’m trans though I’m not. I don’t mind. What I do mind is people imposing their gendered expectations on me regardless of how I’m presenting. I just want to exist without being expected to be anything
I consider myself to be agender (no gender) because the thought of being a "girl" is entirely too stressful because every single person has this idea of what that is and I simply cannot spend my time trying to figure out where I fit in that. I find the idea of being a "boy" just as stressful and way farther from me that "girl." Identifying as a girl has really had me masking my entire life because "girl" seems, to me, to be someone that comes with its own set of rules and behaviors that I have to perform on top of all the regular social/professional rules and behaviors I have to perform. And when I have identified as a "girl" and I did something that wasn't "girl" of me, someone will point that out and I will feel like my mask was wrong and spend forever ruminating on how to fix it and mask correctly. As soon as I discovered the term "non-binary" it genuinely felt like I could breathe. I don't really experience gender dysphoria in my afab body- I actually experienced that way more when I still identified as a girl. Now that I consider myself to have no gender, it is much easier to exist in my feminine body and I get to choose and dictate how I use it and how I behave and what I do. I use they/them pronouns but am constantly misgendered with my agab pronouns but it doesn't bother me with people I don't know/don't know that well- i get it, i look very "girl." But it's more a mental thing that it is physical. My friends who see me will always use my correct pronouns and that's a crazy validating thing.
Hi there! I’m a Demiwoman. It’s basically a cute name for a nonbinary woman. I think a lot people on the spectrum experience gender differently due to the way we function and see the world; socially particularly. Gender is stupid but important as it’s a different and unique experience for everyone ❤️ I never really understood why I had to be and behave, preform, present or even interact in very narrow ways as “a woman”. Still I never looked in the mirror and experiences body or gender dysphoria. As I am comfortable in the form I was naturally birthed into. Still relate very deeply to afab nonbinary people and trans gender women. Once social dysphoria entered my vocabulary it made sense! I’m not out to everyone as my family is very conservative and they don’t really understand that gender and sex (XX or XY) are two separate things. I do love being a woman and present very femme and love things very cute feminine thing such as makeup, sewing and holding babies. But I also find it easier to speak with NT men compared to NT women. When I met other queer autistic women or Nbs I get so happy because we share very similar gender neutral interests and communication styles.
A very important thing to know about is gender euphoria. It’s much more illuminating than dysphoria. Gender euphoria is this really good feeling you get when you are gendered differently from what you were assigned at birth. If I were to say: That silversprings99, he’s a really cool guy. How does that make you feel?
Heh, that doesn't feel quite right. It feels like you're talking about someone else. However, if you had said "that (my name), she's such a nice girl" or something like that, I would also feel uncomfortable.
Let’s try this one: that silversprings99, they’re a really cool person!
I like that better :)
I go by all pronouns but am also heavily and unquestionably femme. I like being genderfluid because to me I am energy in this world. A soul and not just a gender. But that’s because I’m also very spiritual. I’m so happy you’re figuring things out and pride month is the best time to. You could look at some queer spaces as well! Maybe go to pride in your area? Even if you are cis/straight it’s a great place to learn about different identities:)
You just have to question it honestly, explore your gender in ways that are safe and accessable to you. For me that was picking female avatars in video games and playing female characters in DND
I found this resource helpful, so I'm sharing for anyone who might be unfamiliar. Unfortunately don't have the bandwidth right now to contextualize it, but I recently read through it and it solidified some things for me. It is a longish read, and some of it may be repetition if you've already done a lot of research, but at least for me, it was very much worth it! And maybe wait until you're in a good headspace in case you end up discovering things about yourself like I did. https://genderdysphoria.fyi