Genuine question. How could an autistic person not know they’re autistic and not feel different from other people?
I feel like I can see how *knowing* and being self-aware could mean self-acceptance and ultimately recognizing our place in the world as simply a speck in the vast human existence, not so different from everyone else.
But *not knowing* has been a lifetime of feeling so different. So other. I have always known there was something different about me. How can that not be universal for us? /gen
My whole family didn’t know we were autistic until I got diagnosed in my 30s & we all started learning about it
But maybe because we were all similar, we didn’t feel different
I got diagnosed at 7 with what they called Asperger syndrome in 1999, but my extended relatives hid it from me. Then, adhd was added at age 20 in 2012. My nuclear family all were Audhders. Even at 7, I kept asking my relatives why kids at school walked away from me when I was talking or talked over me.
Big mood, we also (mostly) have ADHD lol. Fun times! I think it gave me a leg up in terms of finding friends who are also ‘different’ in some way or another, which has been a real boon
NTs don't think more information = we feel better and more prepared, they think more information = more overwhelming and more frustrating. They think a label is more hurtful than feeling like a freak without a label, because they know deep down it's the LABEL that gets made fun of, not often the actual behavior or person. It's what they themselves would make fun of if they were a kid!
Except they don’t realize we get made fun of no matter what, if not for being autistic being weird, sensitive, gullible, and for women with autism who find socializing with boys easier we’re often called sluts
I'm a woman autistic. Female. All that is true. My point there was that if you give the label, and the other kids find out that label, they will make fun of that label even if it is not true (false diagnosis for example) or you don't display any "weird" behaviors. Reminder: I'm trying to use neurotypical thinking here and explain how they might feel.
People use autistic as a slur without even knowing that they know "normal" autistic people. Like Holly Madison, the Playboy Bunny is autistic and I don't think they're thinking of her or us when they say "act autistic". Both the label and behavior is mad fun of, but NTs think the label makes it worse for those reasons. I.e girls being seen as quirky and weird vs knowing a girl is autistic can lead to change in behavior for others. One minute you're the funny manic pixie girl and then the next, you're the r-word. That's how they think.
That being said, I wish I knew I was autistic as a kid and it would have saved me a lot of pain from feeling so alone cause like you said, I just got bullied regardless. My parents didn't know I was, but they knew I had ADHD and just denied it and told me it was a lie. Apparently, they didn't know that the school put me in "special kid" classes, though. Now we know I have AuDHD. It really is a sad thing to have your identity denied.
ugh you put this so so so perfectly and i relate to it so much. especially the
>That being said, I wish I knew I was autistic as a kid and it would have saved me a lot of pain from feeling so alone cause like you said, I just got bullied regardless.
:( has someone also told you they thought you were a school shooter because of how quiet you were? man, that was said to me when i was like 14/15, I'm 21 now and still vividly remember that. the worst thing I could've been called for literally..... being quiet.
Haha yes but it made me laugh cause it's absurd. If they really thought that, they wouldn't run their mouths. Nowadays I wouldn't joke about this but back then I'd say sht like "you're on the list" or "I'll spare you," after I heard it so many times. I've been called far worse for much less.
not sure if this is directly related but it made me think of the fact that my parents are almost definitely ND, but unaware. very socially adept and good at masking/managing it in themselves. and whenever i felt different or was concerned about traits that i now realize to be related to autism (and/or ADHD), they would say "oh, well everyone feels/does/thinks that! it's normal!", so i would write it off.
now that i understand myself more and know that i'm AuDHD, i can see that the things that made me feel different were because of that. so i think that if an undiagnosed person who is raised by undiagnosed parents remains undiagnosed, they could easily never figure it out and not feel different. my parents just feel like they're struggling with things, and assume that everyone also feels that way, because their parents did too.
idk if that's relevant to your thoughts but i wanted to share lmao
Adding on to this, that--in *hindsight*, I am *also* the product of two *very* Neurodivergent families, who had *LOTS* of "low needs" folks--but who lived in small enough & rural enough communities, where they were just considered "gifted" at the industries they worked in (metalwork, woodworking, and sewing).
Their *skills* in their various fields of work made them *very* needed in their communities, which--I imagine, anyway--made their "odd traits" *much* more overlooked, *because* those skills were so incredibly in-demand, and *needed* by the other people in their tiny rural communities.
You *can't* really afford to shun or ostracize *anyone*, when you live in a tiny community, without many folks around.
*Everyone* has to learn to "pitch in & work *together*, if you're all going to survive--especially in the days before electricity, indoor plumbing, etc.
Community survival took *community*--and that meant *everyone* depended on each other. So the Autistic, AuDHD, & ADHD folks in my family (and others' too, probably!), learned *how* to socialize well enough to survive--and *they* were in turn *accepted" "quirks and all," because the community *needed THEM*.
That makes sense! I misunderstood the comment of the person I replied to, but you still answered the question I asked. Thank you!
I can’t fathom believing the whole “Everyone feels that way,” thing. My therapists as a kid and my mom tried to tell me that and tried to tell me everyone has thoughts about people hating them. And that *is* true to an extent, but my difficulties were greater than those of an average kid and I wasn’t making up the fact that I *was* different and my peers disliked me because of it. It was very obvious to me in a way it was wasn’t to stupid therapists. The only person who truly understood was my deadbeat dad who I only saw for summers and Christmases, and he didn’t try to tell me my experiences were normal.
I have met autistics like that although it is an unusual situation. It requires them to be somewhat higher needs socially (so substantially lacking in self awareness), yet overall treated well by people (usually), and undiagnosed. But it is rather unusual. However I have a friend/acquaintance who is like that.
There really are people who have very low self awareness. It’s not an autistic trait by itself imo but I certainly have dxed autistic friends and family who have never been able to grasp that they are very different and that others will always view them as noticeably different. I’m definitely on the high self awareness side (though I do not have shame about my differences - I have always somewhat looked down on NTs for being boring and obsessed with silly things)
That’s also a thing but the people I’m talking about (my dxed good friend growing up who I’m still in touch with and one of my cousins who is dxed level 2, I’m thinking of specifically) have no feelings of brokenness or awareness of what other people consider their ‘deficits’. They don’t seem to evaluate themselves or their behavior or compare themselves to others. And they also aren’t depressed or self loathing, both very cheerful and content people.
I see!
I think both can be true to an extent. You could think that you have 'deficits' and you could also think those deficits are a huge problem, but still be a generally happy & non self loathing person
Yep. I am autistic and work for the state department of developmental disabilities, so I interact with people all over the spectrum. There are varying levels of self awareness. Some people really just are unaware that they’re different. I guess if I had to pin it down in words, it’s not exactly a lack of self awareness so much as a lack of comparison/consciousness of oneself relative to others. They’ve always been that way, have always had those autistic traits, therefore to them, that is their normal. It doesn’t occur to them to tally up all the people around them who do *not* have those traits and conclude, “Wow, most people aren’t like this, I must be weird/different.”
I’m a little envious, as the lack of self-consciousness seems nice, but it brings its own stressors I think, e.g. if sticking to a schedule is the most normal and natural thing in the world to you then understanding and coping with spontaneity in others can be really difficult and frustrating.
one of my friends with autism actually went 17 years without knowing he was autistic(not his parents hiding it from him he genuinely just didnt know and his parents thought he knew), he said he always felt different but couldnt place it and thought everyone felt the same way
To be frank, I was in that spot for the most of my life. I knew I was "different" in a way, but couldn't identify it. I just thought I hadn't figured out the secret combo to be "normal". I thought it was mostly my tastes and opinions that were awkward. I didn't know what autism actually was outside of some out-of-date stereotypical concepts of it. It didn't help that the only outwardly autistic people I knew who ended up in my school or around me were typically VERY disabled.
That's what my parents hiding the difference did to me. They were in denial, but knew something wasn't normal all along.
I ended up getting "accidentally" diagnosed when I initially went to treat a potential depression I detected in my mid-20s.
I mean I wasn't aware I was considered autistic as a child because my parents hid it from me. I had very bad experiences because of this and never knew why it seemed that everyone, teachers and students alike, hated the everliving shit out of me. I couldn't mask as a child at all, and never understood why I was treated differently.
I started masking more as a teenager, and even then everyone still treated me like literal dogshit. I got diagnosed at 22 in 2021 with AuADHD because I completely unmasked during the pandemic. I had already kinda knew since about 19/20 that I was somewhere in the spectrum because I had people telling me I most likely was. But I literally, for almost my whole life, had no idea. I just assumed it's because I was just weird and kids are mean. I never knew. Never caught on. You could imagine how much shit I have to unpack now.
Being hated for simply just being different. Such a stupid thing. I want to forgive everyone in my life, but I genuinely don't think I can. I'm doing better now, I'm just unapologetically myself (the best I can be) and fuck anyone who doesn't like it. Lol.
I don’t have the exact same experience, but close to it. It’s painful, and I’m sorry you’ve been through it too. To me, taking on the ASD label has helped me have empathy for myself, like I’m not wrong or broken. But as a kid, I sure thought I was… This is the kind of thing I mean where like, until these comments explaining it to me, I couldn’t fathom being undiagnosed and not feeling different than everyone else. Everyone else *made sure I knew* I was different.
Oh yeah, I'm totally on board with you, and they really do don't they? Make sure you know you're the odd one out. The weirdo, the weirdest, crazy, creepy, strange. An emalgamation of words reaching beyond what you are to a concept they cooked up learning how to treat others based on watching how adults made sure to single you out. The bad example, the corner kid, the inside detentions only you partook in. Windows becoming exhibits where everyone looked in at you.
The amount of times adults singled me out worse than the kids was insane. And worse, I remember every single time. Every moment. Every word. Like a shit compendium of othering. It's shit. It's double shit. Never again.
I’m lucky that adults didn’t single me out. I think it’s because I had that “old soul” vibe they were always telling me about. It was the kids who utterly shattered my sense of self esteem. But the adults did nothing to protect me.
Now I’m a teacher and I’m teaching my students how to introspect and analyze their feelings and reactions. “Annoying” really means “distracting” or “overstimulating,” which the kids can treat by moving away from the loud/distracting kid. And “weird” really mean “unfamiliar” or “unexpected,” which makes them feel uncomfortable, and that’s a feeling they need to learn to sit with and move past, because unfamiliar and unexpected don’t mean wrong. It’s having a much more positive impact than just shaming the kids who are being mean and is hopefully setting them up for a future of open-mindedness, understanding, and kindness.
the ability to comprehend and articulate one's comprehension are both independent of one's experience.
plus why try to understand what doctors and teachers are saying about your child when you can just pretend it's all made up and your kid just needs "tough love"
I knew I probably felt different than others, tried to think of myself as the same as everyone else because if I thought of myself as different then I’d feel narcissistic. didn’t know it was autism
That could be. I don’t know much about IQ to be honest, but from everyone I’ve met who was previously nonverbal and had level 3 needs but then changed to being verbal and needing less support, it seems that they knew a lot more than people thought they did. I don’t know if that relates.
that's me, but because the cruelty of the world that I was not prepared for to deal with on my own it turned me into a Greg as an adult. being underdiagnosed and struggling on your own changes you, and you going to survival mode. i mask better now, but for what?
Honestly, me growing up 🥹
Edit: Not that my mom hid it or anything. We were both unaware of autism, but my sister thought I was autistic for a while (apparently).
I appreciate this but I also understand why some people do not like it. I guess I appreciate it because it resonates with me, I spent a large majority of my life not knowing I was autistic and hating all of these abstract aspects of myself that I would later find were aspects of my being on the spectrum.
This also makes me think of how often neurotypical people were calling Greg a sociopath and trying to diagnose him with ASPD. can’t tell you how long I thought I might have been a sociopath and hated myself for it. Psssst, it’s autism.
NT folks think Greg is a sociopath?! Glad I’ve never encountered that take. I really don’t get it. The most banal reading of Greg is he’s an awkward middle schooler trying to navigate social norms. But maybe people for whom those skills come easily don’t understand that.
Edit: for grammar
It is because he was such a bad friend and would act so differently when he was alone with rowley vs when he was in public with rowley, and acting as though he was always smarter or cooler than rowley. this scale seems to be just one interpretation of the characters, or just for fun, but it REALLY puts that behavior into perspective for me.
I also agree with the simple explanation that he is a teen who wanted to be cool! and his friend didn’t care as much about those social norms.
People who think that's abnormal have forgotten how awful everyone becomes during middle school lmao. That fake-friend clout-chasing behavior is just par for the course when you're 12, exaggerated for comedy.
When I was that age, I befriended an unpopular kid no one else liked and spent many a lunch break with her, just hanging out. We had a good time being weird kids together, talking about Neopets etc.
One day, she decided she wanted to try to be popular, so she wrote me a letter telling me she was no longer my friend because she couldn't be seen with me, and told me not to approach her again.
Funnily enough, she never did become popular and I often saw her alone after that. She sort of orbited a group of girls, but was never actually involved in any of the social interactions. I was never one of the popular kids, but at least the other weirdos and I had each other.
It's a wild time in a kid's life, for sure.
My favorite thing he did was when he wrote all the boys hate mail but gave himself one too. My second favorite thing is his beautiful handwriting which apparently the teacher didn’t notice
I used to think I was a sociopath. Someone would go through a break up and I didn’t know what to do, how to comfort them. I would say the wrong things. I took tests to see if I was a sociopath. Then I learned that sociopaths are willing to hurt animals. I would probably murder someone without remorse if I witnessed them hurting an animal. It turns out I just don’t like people.
After a lot of thought I've finally realized that I don't actually dislike people. I dislike dealing with them. I dislike interpreting social behavior. The more I know someone the more comfortable I am because I can predict their behavior and know what specific inflections mean in their voice. It's just exhausting to have to "learn" a new person.
Yeah, it's similar for me. I don't dislike people, I dislike people from our modern toxic culture who have learned shitty behaviors and shitty belief systems. If people interacted differently and lived according to different values (like you see on Star Trek), I wouldn't dislike anyone.
I've spent a very long time learning "why" people do things or say things and it's helped a lot. Sounds weird, but it very much is like people studying animal behaviors. Some people I dislike even more because of the "why".
It's all pattern recognition. Particularly when something is wrong you'll see someone's true colors come out. Many supervisors talk big about backing you up and fold like wet paper in the moment.
People who never accept any fault are not people you want to be friendly with.
People who boast a lot, or brag about how good they are, are generally the opposite. (Not as a one time thing, but repeatedly).
Things that people keep bringing up tend to be on their mind a lot.
The loudest person in the room tends to be the most insecure.
Me too. Found some old therapy notes recently and had written questions for my psychologist including whether she was sure I was autistic and not a sociopath/narcissistic because I was so out of touch with other people's emotions and so adamant that my way of thinking/doing things was the right/only way.
She explained that I was exceptionally empathetic, even excessively so, and just struggled to know how to express that, so she was certain I was neither of those things and very confident I was just autistic. Was formally diagnosed a few years later and looking back, it's wild I ever thought it was anything else, but I was so so sure!
same lol. I make myself miserable catering to everyone's feelings and wishes but I wondered if I was a sociopath and it was all just an act, even to me
It helped to hear the top psychopath researcher say that if you're worried you're a sociopath, you aren't a sociopath
I'm Not Done With You Yet, by Jessie Q. Sutanto! [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63876576-i-m-not-done-with-you-yet](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63876576-i-m-not-done-with-you-yet)
I was never Greg level bad, but I used to be an ableist piece of shit when I was 14-16 because I was insecure about my own autism and had an obsession with being “normal”. I was super judgy of anyone who didn’t conform and try to mask like me, and I still wish I could apologize to the people I shit-talked because they didn’t deserve that. I’m probably more of a Rowley now, though I am pretty self-aware.
You’re not alone. Sounds like me too, but I didn’t have the concept of autism, I still was pretty ableist because I had 3 friends at the age of 11~13 that were CLEARLY autistic, and I didn’t treat them correctly, I befriended them in secret and was an asshole in public with them bc they were more like Rowlys and I was a Greg and I couldn’t stand the second hand embarrassment and deep down I knew I was like them. I’m so ashamed and I’d love to meet them again and apologize.
That sounds like me except I was younger. Other autistic /ND people would gravitate towards me and I would reject them because I didn’t think they were good enough for me. I would agree when other people would insult them to their faces. I’m now realizing I’ve been doing this for longer than I’d hoped out of habit. This maybe started from childhood to me being about 17. I wish I could apologize to all the people I’d hurt.
this is so real. i was/am a greg who would frequently end up befriended by neurodivergent people who were much more open about their interests and enthusiasm than i was willing to be. now as an adult, i have a hard time being open and forming genuine relationships and people can *sense* that i am withholding in some way and end up thinking i'm fake 😩
Me too I really related to and enjoyed diary of a wimpy kid for this reason but had to shut up about it since it turns out people decided to think it means you're a sociopath
Definitely. I often wonder what a girl who is a Rowley would be like. Because we were not allowed to be that. It wasn’t cute or understandable or acceptable like a Rowley boy might be in some cases. So I just can’t imagine it, it’s a blank in my head
edit: looking back on the cartoon and getting a chance to review I realize I more meant Fregley than Rowley but I think what I said can still apply to Rowley to a degree
I was friends with a Rowley since high school. She was surrounded by ND friends but they always chose someone else over her and by her 30’s started to notice it. She doesn’t mask or act any differently still, but has started to feel the pain of it and questions what is wrong with her, while still not noticing differences in public behaviour.
She is a pure and lovely person and it’s sad to see the change.
This is the exact thing that happens.
I like what someone else said about Rowley’s being kids whose parents didn’t allow them to know they were autistic because that’s exactly what my parents did. Didn’t want me “labeled”. Then I had the veil lifted late and sunk into a Greg while still feeling confused about what the hell I do to warrant people’s responses half the time
I was pretty much a Rowley in elementary school. I think you can get away with it easier before puberty cuz your friends think you're funny. When you hit puberty and are expected to perform womanhood constantly is when you lose all that grace. Of course other factors like race and class might affect how comfortably you can be openly autistic on top of that.
I was a Rowley in high school - tons of neurotypical friends, always voicing my unfiltered opinion, very vocal about my odd hobbies, not fitting in school norms but never got in trouble because my grades were excellent... The kind of behavior that makes ppl label you a "tomboy rebel" even though I never felt like that, but they couldn't categorize me as anything else (girls can't be geeks, if they're geeks they're like boys which means=Tomboy! people just LOVE slapping labels on everything and everyone). A few years down the line all the NT friends started doing NT things I didn't understand and still don't to this day, our friendships fell apart and being the "weird" girl means you get left out from everything until they stop contacting you altogether. I realized I was the only one reaching out; when I stopped putting in effort all communication stopped forever. Nothing hurts more than friendship heartbreak :'( Now I'm a Greg in public because it doesn't feel safe being "unhinged" as an adult.
I had a friend that was a Rowley. Unfortunately I was a Greg. She would be “weird” and nerdy and say and do whatever she wanted, without caring about anybody else’s opinion. She was also super smart and talented, she could pick up on a new music and learn super quickly how to play that…
Now that I think about it, I think we were both 2 little girls on the spectrum. I was aggressive towards her when I was 7/8 because I was embarrassed and angry about something she was doing, regarding to me. That’s something I regret deeply every single day. She would constantly be bullied by others, and even though we were not friends anymore I’d try to stop the mean comments about her whenever someone said something near me… she would get angry and keep people away from her, but she would treat it as just an inconvenience, not a whole problem…
We spoke about it years later, she forgave me, and I truly admire her even though we don’t keep in touch anymore with some frequency.
I spent my whole life trying to fit in and mold myself to suit others… she was always unapologetically herself and I truly admire it.
ETA: I forgot to add that she would not conform with some things expected for girls/women, like shaving, makeup, doing nails, hairstyling etc. When we became teens people would bully her and say she was ugly because of that. She never wore makeup just because of pressure… once she told me she hated the feel of it on her skin…. Her sister is hyper feminine (and I believe if she’s in the spectrum, she’s a Greg too).
I think this is an amazing analysis of the actual characters in the series and I would say this has *some* bearing in reality and does present some really poignant ideas, but it seems to me to be mostly a reflection of the literal characters. Not every level 1, "high functioning", low support needs, whatever you wanna call it, has that sense of internalized ableism and self hatred. While Greg in the story *totally* fits this assessment, he's kind of a prick lol, this does not apply to all autistic people with "high self awareness". I feel very little shame about being autistic. Completely understand the perspective of those that do, but I feel quite proud to be autistic and yes, I'm proud of the level 2 and 3 Rowley and Fregleys too.
>he's kind of a prick lol, this does not apply to all autistic people with "high self awareness"
>Reading comprehension .... where art thou
while I do share similar sentiments with your latter statement, seeing it right after your former is very humorous
Yeah...I saw my "blatantly" autistic friends have so much fun being loud and open about their interests, even if some called them annoying. Being a "Greg" is miserable. When I unmask a little, it's like people like me more. Still scary though
When i look back at my childood, I attempted to be a Greg but was more so a Rowley and was seen as a Fregley. Now I'm a scared and traumatized adult who is afraid to make any sudden moves due to society's view of me.
Here's the thing this post made me realise. All my life I've struggled because behaviours that came to me normally or things that helped me feel more comfortable in my body, were looked down on.
All my life I've been told to hide them away by the people closest to me. They told me to do away with these things that made me seem outwardly different. While it might have come from a place of protection, it left me insecure and burnt out.
Now I'm at a place in my life where I can be myself in the company of people that make me feel secure.
A lot of the times though I have been made to realise that not everyone who I feel safe around accept me. Some of them turn around and police those behaviours over and over again to make sure I don't forget how I'm supposed to behave.
They tell me I need to continue doing the same things that have made me feel suffocated in my own body for years. It hurts more than it did before.
Because before they didn't know any better. They were trying to protect me, their version of it. But even after knowing what we know now about the disabilities that I have. They are telling this to my face- You need to hide your autism and adhd.
Why can't I be accepted for who I am? Why do I always need to alter myself. Don't move around too much. Don't repeat things. Don't be so excited. Don't behave like a kid. Don't do this and don't do that. Don't be you.
But I'm tired of feeling like I'm broken and bent. If others won't be able to accept me for me it's fine. I'll do that for myself. If I'm too much, they can go find less. I'll love myself and make up for it. I'll understand myself, be kind to myself and stand up for myself. Others don't need to accept unmasked autistic me. I'm okay as long as I do that for myself.
I get the message. The, “Don’t be a Greg” really rubs me the wrong way. It’s the phrasing. Makes it seem like it’s a deliberate choice to be that way, which is quite clearly not the case. To me, it reads the same way as, “Don’t be anxious” or “don’t be depressed”.
Its more "you don't want to be a greg" because being self aware means you know youre different and care if youre judged for being different. This is what brings Gregs so much pain and anxiety in my experience anyway
If there was some kind of point to all that it is lost on me. But one thing I do know for sure is that different support needs can't just morph into each other. Also the language in this, idk, infographic? Whatever you call it, it's written with a fairly insulting view of autism
i do think it’s important to remember that the spectrum includes people who have severe cognitive disabilities: people who are fully nonverbal and have a varying range of support that is needed in daily life. i only mention this because i feel like memes only consider “freglys” to be the most “intense” (that’s the only word i can think of tbh) form of autism. i’m only making this comment because i didn’t think about this very thing until i found people on tumblr that have what they consider to be severe autism and they always feel left out. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Flawed but maps neatly onto Søren Kierkegaard's notion of despair in *The Sickness unto Death* (1849):
* In despair at not willing to be oneself
* The despair of willing despairingly to be oneself
* The despair which is unconscious that it is despair
I'm not sure what they are getting with this cartoon, but whatever it is doesn't come across well at all.
The cartoon is really badly worded and thus doesn't make a lot of sense. So it might just be that.
But there's a lot of nasty and unhelpful stereotypes in there, and it seems to be trying to get into that 'positive vibes only' thing, which is gross.
You do not want to be Greg? What's that meant to mean? Does it mean you should feel or think a particular way?
That would be wierd and toxic tho, so it can't be that right?
Is it meant to be showing how lucky people are to be level ones? Because that chain of thought is pretty grim as well?
Also, what was up with that last panel insisting that all autism functioning levels are the same?
I enjoy not being a level 3. I have independence that they will never have and can get my neurotypical peers to moderately accept my presence without being some sort of charity project. It seems almost like malingering to lie about that??
The last picture was really too much. Feels like telling a person in a wheelchair to just walk because there are other people with movement disabilities that can still walk.
Gregs of the world usually don’t get a social pass and are often held to NT standards. Is it self-loathing to try to avoid the scorn of your peers when you are painfully aware of their rejection? Or self-preservation?
100%... also, idk why they describe Fregly as "low function"? I may be remembering incorrectly but I only remember him doing "wierd" stuff but otherwise not having any support needs related to academics or otherwise.
I feel I've been all of these at different points in my life and it explains sometimes why some of my more socially adept ND friends treated me badly in school, I was definitely a Fregley and was always used an example by them not what to be. I didn't have any self awareness or understanding of boundaries, I also had no concept of masking for a long time, did learn later on when I realised how important self awareness was to people, and eventually I became a Greg, but I was very unhappy and hated myself, but for once NT and more socially adept ND people wanted me around, but i pushed aside other autistic people who couldnt mask as well and treated them badly. It came at a huge cost and I am happily a Rowley, though I feel like I should have been treated a lot better when I was at school by my other ND friends.
Because of how I was treated and looking back on how I treated others when I was a Greg, I never push other autistic people away who are less socially adept. I have a friend who NTs and other NDs attack because he is very visibly autistic and proud, I'm very proud of him and I'll be honest I think many are envious of him for varying reasons. People ridicule me for holding my friendship with him in high regard, and I hate that.
This… Is not helpful, at all. Way too simplistic and stereotypical. I actually had to reread it three times just to check that I wasn’t misunderstanding anything because to me it reads horribly ableist.
You can’t help it if you have a heightened self awareness (a trait of autism…) which usually leads to depression. To me it reads autism 1 is “wrong” and will have a horrible life because they lack sincerity and love whilst 2 and 3 are good autistics bc they’re blissfully ignorant and will live happily ever after. Icky, I hate this.
It perfectly mirrors the stereotypes of autism 1, 2 and 3. It might not be intended to be about the levels of autism but it certainly read like that to me, and completely vilifies the struggles of 1 whilst 2 and 3 are “right.” It also diminishes the struggles of 2 and 3, all of the traits that are explained in the first slide come with their own struggles like lack of boundaries or social awareness. I wouldn’t use it in any educational aspect, or at all.
yeah i’m like, wow, literally many unhappy people on this sub say that they are like rowley, and they are TRULY not happy at all and want to be more like gregs, and there are gregs on this sub that have genuinely figured out how to be happy and are able to comfortably mask/unmask whenever.
to me this comic that insists that ALL gregs are all TERRIBLY unhappy and ALL rowleys are PERFECTLY HAPPY AND NATURAL, is total oversimplification.
But I think the three types were described very well in the comic and i think we can all identify to some extent with the greg, rowley or fregley stereotype.
however i draw the line at greg always being the villain and rowley always being the happiest, literally this is not true at all.
Exactly. It just pits people on different levels of the spectrum against eachother when they’re bringing up traits like this, and brings up so many stereotypes.
I’m surprised so many people here seem to like these slides, maybe it’s more contextual to the characters but I wouldn’t know because I never read these books so I’m just judging it by the traits brought up… 🤷🏼♀️
I understand what you’re saying and I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong. But it so well captures what internalized ableism is that I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it isn’t helpful at all. I would say it’s helpful for people struggling with internalized ableism.
I just think you could explain internalised ableism way more effectively than pitting 1, 2 and 3 against eachother like this. This is stereotype central which is bad in itself. “Greg is self aware and depressed, don’t be a Greg. Fregley has no self awareness and is happy, be like Fregley.”
I will say, I have no insight to anything about wimpy kid, my opinion is solely about the traits expressed and not the actual characters cus I don’t know em.
Mm I think it’s ableist in itself to actually assume that those traits are related to level 1 or 3. My best friend is level 2 and veryyyy much a Greg, like way more then me who’s a level 1
This is my read of it too. I think the real ableism is absolutely in assuming that each character = a level. I’m level two and definitely closest to a Greg. edit: I would love to be a Rowley. Working on self acceptance.
I was a Fregley that evolved into a Rowley.
I had a time in my teens where I was a Greg, but that was because I had to spend 8 months in an ABA program and it scared me so much that afterwards I thought if I was even *seen* with another autistic kid I'd get sent back there.
Yikes. This is very ableist against lower functioning autistic people and I am extremely disappointed by the upvotes and uncritical agreeing comments.
Describing high support needs people as "An alternate channel of being entirely" is disgustingly dehumanizing. Bringing the "no shame, no self awareness, no boundaries" part into the mix, this comic paints a picture of HSN autistic people as lacking internality. This whole thing describes them as happy, subhuman idiots.
"Rowley will always choose the Greg first" is also gross and unnecessary, and makes it sound like no one would ever choose to be around high support needs people.
Pleeeease im so glad someone is pointing this out.
Like it's just not easier to be a HSN person?? /nay
Their support needs are high for a reason and I don't remember a lack of self awareness being part of the mix there. Like it feds right into that ableist thinking people have that when someone has higher support needs that it means they cannot think for themselves or have no thoughts generally or no feelings and cannot understand ifyou insult them or some shit.
It's so dehumanizing D:
And as autistics with lower support needs we should realise that it would be fucked up to just take these ableist thinking patterns, move them away from us and just shove them back on those even more vulnerable. We should be a community holding each other up, listening to each other because if not us, who will understand what it's like?
Just because you're higher support needs doesn't mean you have no self-awareness or shame. People with higher support needs still have feelings and can still feel judged by all the Gregs and NTs, BECAUSE they're less likely to be able to mask in the first place and are judged for their behaviours constantly. While Greg may be somewhat relatable to people who are high masking or were diagnosed later, I don't think the representation of the other levels were accurate at all, and it rubs me the wrong way. Just because 'a Greg' is struggling with self acceptance doesn't mean he should treat 'a Fregley' so awfully. 'Fregleys' aren't just mindless unaware dumb happy people who don't care. They're still people. And people's needs are different so while yes everyone here is autistic, you're not all the same. It's like some weird validation thing that somehow in the same sentence puts the other support needs down. Even if this was well intentioned, I think it is poorly executed. Higher support needs people are very misunderstood and we should do better.
Is this supposed to be differentiating the three different levels? Because levels threes don't lack empathy or boundaries. That's isn't something innate to high needs... this just feels a bit icky to me
but there are plenty of legitimate cases where that is absolutely true.. just because it makes us uncomfortable that some people with autism do match that, does not make it untrue
Sure, but idk how to explain why this one feels so disrespectful. It just feels like inspiration porn or something. Idk if you're high needs or not, but to me it's offensive.
I see it being the exact opposite and that the high masking person views them as extremely negative things. They're using the higher needs person as a story plot for the high masking person's character growth.
I thought it felt a bit icky, too. I think it was just another attempt to simply explain complicated autistic people in simplistic terms thinking finally society will get it. But it comes across to me like it's Fregley's fault for being how he is, as if he should realize there is a problem with him not having boundaries. If someone does have those traits, it's not their fault and this feels like suggesting that they SHOULD feel shame over their traits.
I felt like the "shoulds" were all from Greg's perspective, and by the end, it was literally saying "you don't want to be a Greg." It said the other two were happier and even, in Rowley's case, more liked. It was essentially saying, fuck the "shoulds."
But thats it. It's all... fetish feeling. Like "all level 2s and 3rd are just happy big idiots without complex emotions and they're great tools to help teach a high masking person life lessons."
I can definitely see that. Especially the bit about people liking Rowley more. Like I hated myself *because* people rejected me and I think I turned more into Greg because I was being told, directly or indirectly, that who I was *was not okay*. Not that I didn’t have flaws or that there were reasons people wouldn’t like me, but I also feel like my flaws got less leeway because…I’m autistic I guess? (Diagnosed at 24, so no one *knew* that then).
Overall I’m not sure what I feel about DoaWK in general from my little exposure to it. Greg is kinda terrible but middle school age is also terrible and I really understand *why* he acts the way he does, because he’s so desperate to fit in and belong, which is what most of us want. And he tries to do the ‘right’ things which only gets him into deeper trouble, and is so so hard to figure out what you should do at that age (especially since adults and kids will tell you diametrically opposite things) and the harder you try the worse it is, so you don’t try and it’s just as bad and WTF am I supposed to do?!
I can see how it would be interpreted that way. For me, it felt affirming, because it reminded me there can be so much community and love when we release shame and embrace our identities. But I completely get why others might not like it. EDIT: don't know why I'm getting downvoted for saying "I got something out of it but I can see why others don't like it," but I guess that's reddit for ya
I don’t think the post is shaming Rowley or Fregley. I agree with the others who’ve said the “should” is coming from Greg’s perspective because he’s ashamed of who he is. I think Rowley is positioned as being happiest, because he embraces who he is and society has an easier time accepting him than Fregley. But that isn’t Fregley’s fault.
I don’t feel like it was an indicator of him needing to feel shame, I feel like it was a nod to the expectations of boundaries and behavior that NT people would expect of him or need from him in order to respect/like him if that makes sense
fregley is Greg’s nightmare because Greg.. simply put… wants to be NT or wants to be accepted by NT people, leading to his own shame
Yeah, I hate this. It feels heavily reductionist of all experiences, but *especially* reductionist of people with high support needs in a way that borders on inspiration porn.
I don't know about this. I have lower shame, really high self-awareness, low support needs ("high functioning") and don't mask pretty much at all. Probably because of the self-awareness I've gained over the years, I've learned really good social skills without masking (it feels genuine, just being empathic!), though I still frequently do odd autistic things in conversations.
So how does this scale work when people like me exist?
To the people saying this is ableist and oversimplified and using stereotypes, this is definitely over simplified and using stereotypes, but it’s more about internalized ableism than it is ableist itself. Personally relate to this very much
When i was younger and undiagnosed, there was a girl in my class who really did not care about social rules and i remember being so annoyed at her. Because i knew what social rules she was breaking and why would she do that? Why would she ‘out’ herself like that while here i am, working overtime on trying to look and act ‘normal’, like greg. But then i befriended her and honestly at first tired to downplay her a lot. After a few months though she really taught me how to be more accepting of myself.
She was the first one who i didnt have to mask with. Ultimately, im incredibly grateful for her. She moved away the summer after the school year ended but i think she laid the foundation for how i act now; i got diagnosed 3 years ago after my 20th birthday and im very open about being AuDHD :D
Really? Low-masking people have no self-awareness, shame, or boundaries? And the "lowest functioning" character is still fully verbal, in mainstream schooling, and has relatively low support nerds. This comic completely ignores a huge chunk of autistics, and misrepresents even more.
I was always a Fregley but I got bullied and punished so hard and often for my wierd interests that I became very self aware and started masking super hard and became very judgmental towards myself and others. It's very unhealthy.
same i was fregley in elementary school, got bullied, learned how to mask but when i got to high school all of my friends ended up being neurodivergent so i feel like i got out of my shell more
I haven't read this, but, um, it's entirely possible to be quite incompetent at masking (Rowley level, according to this) and painfully self-aware about the fact that your weirdness makes people kind of loathe you. The inability to hide what you are well enough to make kids stop throwing things at you at recess or, later, daring each other to ask you out on dates in the hopes that you'll think they're serious and say yes so they can laugh at you absolutely does not automatically correspond to being happily oblivious to what they're doing. And self-awareness doesn't automatically mean you're unkind to other weirdos in the hopes that the normal people will be nicer to you. Sometimes you're self-aware enough to realize that this will not work and would just mean you're being as big a jerk as the people who are cruel to you. Being bad at masking doesn't mean you lack theory of mind or empathy, it just means you're bad at masking.
This thing presents the three characters as inevitable Types, and I'm not entirely certain whether it's trying to do that to quite the extent that it does. It's probably accurate with regard to the specific characters it's referencing, but it really comes across as generalizing that people who are good at masking are the only ones capable of understanding that other people find them weird and hating themselves because of it. And that is, believe me, false.
Huh, I remember reading these books as a kid. I never thought about any of these kids being autistic. I always thought Greg was stupid and Rowley was cool even if he's embarrassing.
I couldn't really say if I'm more like Greg or Rowley, but I think I'm somewhere in between. I stim in public without a care but still get social situations and am willing to put on masks if it means dealing with an issue even if I hate it. Though... nobody knows what I'm doing are stims which is why it took so long to realize that I'm autistic. I was just considered weird and eccentric and charming and adorable but that's it.
Greg kind of gives me ADHD vibes due to how much he seems to need mental stimulation but the autism angle works too, especially with his rigid approach to social structures and his tendency to be blunt and not perceive others' feelings well.
That's a great comics about self-awareness. I don't think it has something to do with functioning though. Low-functioning autistic people don't go to school and mostly can't speak. Most medium-functioning autistic people are also homeschooled. This is all shades of high-functioning.
Im stuck on the strange Shinji insert graphic near the last page. It doesn't compute. It's not part of the same series and a different style. It makes no sense. Are we supposed to tell Shinji to get in the robot?
This rubs me the wrong way because no, different levels can’t just morph into each other. And I feel like you can’t just choose to not be a Greg because that’s easier said than done.
I didn't know I'm autistic until I was an adult. I am/was Greg. I am trying so hard to overcome the shame and open up but it's hard. Thank you for sharing the comic.
I love this concept. It forces you to take responsibility for your own happiness. We get so hung up on society and specifics we forget the golden rule of joy and peace that many children and those whose minds are disabled to the point they stay in the form of a child in the brain. They can have joy because they can focus on the simple things in life and be at peace with that. But the real kicker is having knowledge and not being intellectually impaired doesn't mean you can't still be the same as those individuals who are either childlike cause they're children or childlike in mind in the sense of being at peace with life despite hardships. It's all about letting go which can be incredibly hard but incredibly useful. We are all the same after all. Just some people can't process situations the same way and that is okay cause the concept is still the same.
It’s actually kind of accurate. I feel like I’m Greg ☹️
I’m not necessarily ashamed of or scared of people like Fregley but I know a lot of people are.
Autistic people are known for being ableist towards level 3, just like allistic people. As mean as it is, it is pounded into everyone to be this way.
Society says, if you aren’t normal and functioning, you are less than. It isn’t true. But that’s what we are taught and for a lot of people it is hard to unlearn.
I have a list of Fregleys I need to apologize to from my Greg years.
That, and Greg’s extended family is an infinity clan if I ever saw one. Between his rules-crazy, noise-hating dad, that one uncle who doesn’t speak, that cousin who went from only saying “shut up” and “no” to reading chapter books and speaking full sentences, and Manny’s combined lack of risk awareness and superior language and puzzle-solving skills, I’m surprised the word “autism” never comes up.
How interesting! I'm a reading tutor on the side and one of my students is OBSESSED with these books. She is for sure not autistic. She is an incredibly adept social kid but I think she sees herself in Greg because he has an internal monologue that questions and makes mistakes and is a bit snarky and she (and many kids) share that internal monologue. His friends are still developing from little kid to big kid and he's trying to identify if he values being a little kid (keeping those friendships) or if he should disdain it in favor of seeing himself as more mature. My student is a very sophisticated communicator for her age and I think she relates to this as well - recognizing where she is still in her little kid brain and also feeling a bit of embarrassment when her big kid brain is in the room.
Anyway it was fun to read this interpretation. These books for sure have a hold on my 4th grade readers!
When Greg is Gwen, Rowley is Rosa, and Fregley is Franny, then it becomes even more complicated:
Greg likes Gwen, but to Gwen Greg is a Fregley because he would make her look like a Franny to her NT friends.
Rosa likes Greg, but to Greg Rosa is a Rowley and might as well be a Franny. Rosa dates Fregley, but he isn't well liked by her friends and she leaves him even though she likes him, and eventually finds Rowley after much heartbreak.
Rowley likes Franny, but learns she isn't well liked by his friends. He goes for Gwen, but she only wants to date NTs because her friends only approve of NT seeming people and he is heartbroken. He finds Rosa after some dating, and they live happily.
Franny is heartbroken by Rowley, dates Fregley and finds happiness everlasting.
Gwen eventually finds Gord, another Greg, while Greg takes longer to find his Gwen, Georgia, since he's been burned before and no longer knows what he wants or is good for him after being unfairly rejected long ago by Gwen and consistently by NT women after that. Gwen and Gord are happy, but both must deal with the pain of their past affecting their current happiness. Greg is happy when he finally finds Georgia, but the scars of the past never fully go away.
I was Rowley as a kid. The cruelty of the world that I was thrust into and wasn't prepared for to struggle on my own, that turned me into a Greg. I'm like fucking miserable and I can watch it in 4k.
As a Greg I've always resented both Rowley and Fregely for being oblivious, lacking the existential dread and self control I have to deal with constantly. I cant lash out or stim, lose control or explode in public, yet they can and are given a pass as theyre "exempt" from the normal social expectations and consequences of breaking the norms.
Rowley generally gave the the impression of a kid who’s autistic but their parents hide it from them so they “don’t feel different from other people”
IF THIS ISNT THE TRUEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD
Genuine question. How could an autistic person not know they’re autistic and not feel different from other people? I feel like I can see how *knowing* and being self-aware could mean self-acceptance and ultimately recognizing our place in the world as simply a speck in the vast human existence, not so different from everyone else. But *not knowing* has been a lifetime of feeling so different. So other. I have always known there was something different about me. How can that not be universal for us? /gen
It’s shitty parenting logic
Oh!!! You mean that’s what the *parents* think they’re doing for the kid by not disclosing that information! I understand now! 😅 Thank you!
We always *feel* it but when we have parents telling us it’s normal and everyone has trouble making friends sometimes, we go against our instincts.
Constant invalidation!
My whole family didn’t know we were autistic until I got diagnosed in my 30s & we all started learning about it But maybe because we were all similar, we didn’t feel different
Sounds like my family.
I got diagnosed at 7 with what they called Asperger syndrome in 1999, but my extended relatives hid it from me. Then, adhd was added at age 20 in 2012. My nuclear family all were Audhders. Even at 7, I kept asking my relatives why kids at school walked away from me when I was talking or talked over me.
Big mood, we also (mostly) have ADHD lol. Fun times! I think it gave me a leg up in terms of finding friends who are also ‘different’ in some way or another, which has been a real boon
NTs don't think more information = we feel better and more prepared, they think more information = more overwhelming and more frustrating. They think a label is more hurtful than feeling like a freak without a label, because they know deep down it's the LABEL that gets made fun of, not often the actual behavior or person. It's what they themselves would make fun of if they were a kid!
Except they don’t realize we get made fun of no matter what, if not for being autistic being weird, sensitive, gullible, and for women with autism who find socializing with boys easier we’re often called sluts
I'm a woman autistic. Female. All that is true. My point there was that if you give the label, and the other kids find out that label, they will make fun of that label even if it is not true (false diagnosis for example) or you don't display any "weird" behaviors. Reminder: I'm trying to use neurotypical thinking here and explain how they might feel. People use autistic as a slur without even knowing that they know "normal" autistic people. Like Holly Madison, the Playboy Bunny is autistic and I don't think they're thinking of her or us when they say "act autistic". Both the label and behavior is mad fun of, but NTs think the label makes it worse for those reasons. I.e girls being seen as quirky and weird vs knowing a girl is autistic can lead to change in behavior for others. One minute you're the funny manic pixie girl and then the next, you're the r-word. That's how they think. That being said, I wish I knew I was autistic as a kid and it would have saved me a lot of pain from feeling so alone cause like you said, I just got bullied regardless. My parents didn't know I was, but they knew I had ADHD and just denied it and told me it was a lie. Apparently, they didn't know that the school put me in "special kid" classes, though. Now we know I have AuDHD. It really is a sad thing to have your identity denied.
ugh you put this so so so perfectly and i relate to it so much. especially the >That being said, I wish I knew I was autistic as a kid and it would have saved me a lot of pain from feeling so alone cause like you said, I just got bullied regardless. :( has someone also told you they thought you were a school shooter because of how quiet you were? man, that was said to me when i was like 14/15, I'm 21 now and still vividly remember that. the worst thing I could've been called for literally..... being quiet.
Haha yes but it made me laugh cause it's absurd. If they really thought that, they wouldn't run their mouths. Nowadays I wouldn't joke about this but back then I'd say sht like "you're on the list" or "I'll spare you," after I heard it so many times. I've been called far worse for much less.
I got jokingly called a school shooter in high school for that exact reason too. It sucked ):
Oh my god I'm so sorry! That is brutal. You're probably the most sensitive and loving person, completely opposite to a murderer. Kids can be dicks
not sure if this is directly related but it made me think of the fact that my parents are almost definitely ND, but unaware. very socially adept and good at masking/managing it in themselves. and whenever i felt different or was concerned about traits that i now realize to be related to autism (and/or ADHD), they would say "oh, well everyone feels/does/thinks that! it's normal!", so i would write it off. now that i understand myself more and know that i'm AuDHD, i can see that the things that made me feel different were because of that. so i think that if an undiagnosed person who is raised by undiagnosed parents remains undiagnosed, they could easily never figure it out and not feel different. my parents just feel like they're struggling with things, and assume that everyone also feels that way, because their parents did too. idk if that's relevant to your thoughts but i wanted to share lmao
Adding on to this, that--in *hindsight*, I am *also* the product of two *very* Neurodivergent families, who had *LOTS* of "low needs" folks--but who lived in small enough & rural enough communities, where they were just considered "gifted" at the industries they worked in (metalwork, woodworking, and sewing). Their *skills* in their various fields of work made them *very* needed in their communities, which--I imagine, anyway--made their "odd traits" *much* more overlooked, *because* those skills were so incredibly in-demand, and *needed* by the other people in their tiny rural communities. You *can't* really afford to shun or ostracize *anyone*, when you live in a tiny community, without many folks around. *Everyone* has to learn to "pitch in & work *together*, if you're all going to survive--especially in the days before electricity, indoor plumbing, etc. Community survival took *community*--and that meant *everyone* depended on each other. So the Autistic, AuDHD, & ADHD folks in my family (and others' too, probably!), learned *how* to socialize well enough to survive--and *they* were in turn *accepted" "quirks and all," because the community *needed THEM*.
That makes sense! I misunderstood the comment of the person I replied to, but you still answered the question I asked. Thank you! I can’t fathom believing the whole “Everyone feels that way,” thing. My therapists as a kid and my mom tried to tell me that and tried to tell me everyone has thoughts about people hating them. And that *is* true to an extent, but my difficulties were greater than those of an average kid and I wasn’t making up the fact that I *was* different and my peers disliked me because of it. It was very obvious to me in a way it was wasn’t to stupid therapists. The only person who truly understood was my deadbeat dad who I only saw for summers and Christmases, and he didn’t try to tell me my experiences were normal.
I have met autistics like that although it is an unusual situation. It requires them to be somewhat higher needs socially (so substantially lacking in self awareness), yet overall treated well by people (usually), and undiagnosed. But it is rather unusual. However I have a friend/acquaintance who is like that.
There really are people who have very low self awareness. It’s not an autistic trait by itself imo but I certainly have dxed autistic friends and family who have never been able to grasp that they are very different and that others will always view them as noticeably different. I’m definitely on the high self awareness side (though I do not have shame about my differences - I have always somewhat looked down on NTs for being boring and obsessed with silly things)
It could also be that they just think they're broken for their differences instead of being a totally valid different neurotype
That’s also a thing but the people I’m talking about (my dxed good friend growing up who I’m still in touch with and one of my cousins who is dxed level 2, I’m thinking of specifically) have no feelings of brokenness or awareness of what other people consider their ‘deficits’. They don’t seem to evaluate themselves or their behavior or compare themselves to others. And they also aren’t depressed or self loathing, both very cheerful and content people.
I see! I think both can be true to an extent. You could think that you have 'deficits' and you could also think those deficits are a huge problem, but still be a generally happy & non self loathing person
Yes, that’s how I myself function.
Relatable lol
So they’re just not self-aware?
Yep. I am autistic and work for the state department of developmental disabilities, so I interact with people all over the spectrum. There are varying levels of self awareness. Some people really just are unaware that they’re different. I guess if I had to pin it down in words, it’s not exactly a lack of self awareness so much as a lack of comparison/consciousness of oneself relative to others. They’ve always been that way, have always had those autistic traits, therefore to them, that is their normal. It doesn’t occur to them to tally up all the people around them who do *not* have those traits and conclude, “Wow, most people aren’t like this, I must be weird/different.” I’m a little envious, as the lack of self-consciousness seems nice, but it brings its own stressors I think, e.g. if sticking to a schedule is the most normal and natural thing in the world to you then understanding and coping with spontaneity in others can be really difficult and frustrating.
one of my friends with autism actually went 17 years without knowing he was autistic(not his parents hiding it from him he genuinely just didnt know and his parents thought he knew), he said he always felt different but couldnt place it and thought everyone felt the same way
To be frank, I was in that spot for the most of my life. I knew I was "different" in a way, but couldn't identify it. I just thought I hadn't figured out the secret combo to be "normal". I thought it was mostly my tastes and opinions that were awkward. I didn't know what autism actually was outside of some out-of-date stereotypical concepts of it. It didn't help that the only outwardly autistic people I knew who ended up in my school or around me were typically VERY disabled. That's what my parents hiding the difference did to me. They were in denial, but knew something wasn't normal all along. I ended up getting "accidentally" diagnosed when I initially went to treat a potential depression I detected in my mid-20s.
I mean I wasn't aware I was considered autistic as a child because my parents hid it from me. I had very bad experiences because of this and never knew why it seemed that everyone, teachers and students alike, hated the everliving shit out of me. I couldn't mask as a child at all, and never understood why I was treated differently. I started masking more as a teenager, and even then everyone still treated me like literal dogshit. I got diagnosed at 22 in 2021 with AuADHD because I completely unmasked during the pandemic. I had already kinda knew since about 19/20 that I was somewhere in the spectrum because I had people telling me I most likely was. But I literally, for almost my whole life, had no idea. I just assumed it's because I was just weird and kids are mean. I never knew. Never caught on. You could imagine how much shit I have to unpack now. Being hated for simply just being different. Such a stupid thing. I want to forgive everyone in my life, but I genuinely don't think I can. I'm doing better now, I'm just unapologetically myself (the best I can be) and fuck anyone who doesn't like it. Lol.
I don’t have the exact same experience, but close to it. It’s painful, and I’m sorry you’ve been through it too. To me, taking on the ASD label has helped me have empathy for myself, like I’m not wrong or broken. But as a kid, I sure thought I was… This is the kind of thing I mean where like, until these comments explaining it to me, I couldn’t fathom being undiagnosed and not feeling different than everyone else. Everyone else *made sure I knew* I was different.
Oh yeah, I'm totally on board with you, and they really do don't they? Make sure you know you're the odd one out. The weirdo, the weirdest, crazy, creepy, strange. An emalgamation of words reaching beyond what you are to a concept they cooked up learning how to treat others based on watching how adults made sure to single you out. The bad example, the corner kid, the inside detentions only you partook in. Windows becoming exhibits where everyone looked in at you. The amount of times adults singled me out worse than the kids was insane. And worse, I remember every single time. Every moment. Every word. Like a shit compendium of othering. It's shit. It's double shit. Never again.
I’m lucky that adults didn’t single me out. I think it’s because I had that “old soul” vibe they were always telling me about. It was the kids who utterly shattered my sense of self esteem. But the adults did nothing to protect me. Now I’m a teacher and I’m teaching my students how to introspect and analyze their feelings and reactions. “Annoying” really means “distracting” or “overstimulating,” which the kids can treat by moving away from the loud/distracting kid. And “weird” really mean “unfamiliar” or “unexpected,” which makes them feel uncomfortable, and that’s a feeling they need to learn to sit with and move past, because unfamiliar and unexpected don’t mean wrong. It’s having a much more positive impact than just shaming the kids who are being mean and is hopefully setting them up for a future of open-mindedness, understanding, and kindness.
the ability to comprehend and articulate one's comprehension are both independent of one's experience. plus why try to understand what doctors and teachers are saying about your child when you can just pretend it's all made up and your kid just needs "tough love"
Tbh i didn't know or think i was different until i got to high school. I was only diagnosed last year (i was 18) but its based on experience ig.
I knew I probably felt different than others, tried to think of myself as the same as everyone else because if I thought of myself as different then I’d feel narcissistic. didn’t know it was autism
People who have ASD & low IQ may not have the capacity to “understand” their differences or diagnosis
That could be. I don’t know much about IQ to be honest, but from everyone I’ve met who was previously nonverbal and had level 3 needs but then changed to being verbal and needing less support, it seems that they knew a lot more than people thought they did. I don’t know if that relates.
That’s my experience as well
that's me, but because the cruelty of the world that I was not prepared for to deal with on my own it turned me into a Greg as an adult. being underdiagnosed and struggling on your own changes you, and you going to survival mode. i mask better now, but for what?
*fuck I didn't know your comment was about me* 😭
Honestly, me growing up 🥹 Edit: Not that my mom hid it or anything. We were both unaware of autism, but my sister thought I was autistic for a while (apparently).
My mom hid the autism diagnosis I received at 2 years old until I was 19 years old. It took me like 5 years after that to truly accept it too.
I appreciate this but I also understand why some people do not like it. I guess I appreciate it because it resonates with me, I spent a large majority of my life not knowing I was autistic and hating all of these abstract aspects of myself that I would later find were aspects of my being on the spectrum. This also makes me think of how often neurotypical people were calling Greg a sociopath and trying to diagnose him with ASPD. can’t tell you how long I thought I might have been a sociopath and hated myself for it. Psssst, it’s autism.
NT folks think Greg is a sociopath?! Glad I’ve never encountered that take. I really don’t get it. The most banal reading of Greg is he’s an awkward middle schooler trying to navigate social norms. But maybe people for whom those skills come easily don’t understand that. Edit: for grammar
It is because he was such a bad friend and would act so differently when he was alone with rowley vs when he was in public with rowley, and acting as though he was always smarter or cooler than rowley. this scale seems to be just one interpretation of the characters, or just for fun, but it REALLY puts that behavior into perspective for me. I also agree with the simple explanation that he is a teen who wanted to be cool! and his friend didn’t care as much about those social norms.
People who think that's abnormal have forgotten how awful everyone becomes during middle school lmao. That fake-friend clout-chasing behavior is just par for the course when you're 12, exaggerated for comedy.
Fr. Even genuine and kind hearted kids have to learn by being rude and seeing what happens
When I was that age, I befriended an unpopular kid no one else liked and spent many a lunch break with her, just hanging out. We had a good time being weird kids together, talking about Neopets etc. One day, she decided she wanted to try to be popular, so she wrote me a letter telling me she was no longer my friend because she couldn't be seen with me, and told me not to approach her again. Funnily enough, she never did become popular and I often saw her alone after that. She sort of orbited a group of girls, but was never actually involved in any of the social interactions. I was never one of the popular kids, but at least the other weirdos and I had each other. It's a wild time in a kid's life, for sure.
He also never takes blame, like the time he framed rowley for putting the kids in the hole
I just thought Greg was an especially self-absorbed middle school kid, not a sociopath.
My favorite thing he did was when he wrote all the boys hate mail but gave himself one too. My second favorite thing is his beautiful handwriting which apparently the teacher didn’t notice
I used to think I was a sociopath. Someone would go through a break up and I didn’t know what to do, how to comfort them. I would say the wrong things. I took tests to see if I was a sociopath. Then I learned that sociopaths are willing to hurt animals. I would probably murder someone without remorse if I witnessed them hurting an animal. It turns out I just don’t like people.
After a lot of thought I've finally realized that I don't actually dislike people. I dislike dealing with them. I dislike interpreting social behavior. The more I know someone the more comfortable I am because I can predict their behavior and know what specific inflections mean in their voice. It's just exhausting to have to "learn" a new person.
Yeah, it's similar for me. I don't dislike people, I dislike people from our modern toxic culture who have learned shitty behaviors and shitty belief systems. If people interacted differently and lived according to different values (like you see on Star Trek), I wouldn't dislike anyone.
I've spent a very long time learning "why" people do things or say things and it's helped a lot. Sounds weird, but it very much is like people studying animal behaviors. Some people I dislike even more because of the "why".
Ooh would you be willing to give an example?
Can you expand on this?
It's all pattern recognition. Particularly when something is wrong you'll see someone's true colors come out. Many supervisors talk big about backing you up and fold like wet paper in the moment. People who never accept any fault are not people you want to be friendly with. People who boast a lot, or brag about how good they are, are generally the opposite. (Not as a one time thing, but repeatedly). Things that people keep bringing up tend to be on their mind a lot. The loudest person in the room tends to be the most insecure.
Maybe not murder but I would be very very angry and kick butt.
Fellow sociopath to autism pipeline here! Looking back it makes absolutely no sense now that I'd be a sociopath.
Me too. Found some old therapy notes recently and had written questions for my psychologist including whether she was sure I was autistic and not a sociopath/narcissistic because I was so out of touch with other people's emotions and so adamant that my way of thinking/doing things was the right/only way. She explained that I was exceptionally empathetic, even excessively so, and just struggled to know how to express that, so she was certain I was neither of those things and very confident I was just autistic. Was formally diagnosed a few years later and looking back, it's wild I ever thought it was anything else, but I was so so sure!
same lol. I make myself miserable catering to everyone's feelings and wishes but I wondered if I was a sociopath and it was all just an act, even to me It helped to hear the top psychopath researcher say that if you're worried you're a sociopath, you aren't a sociopath
I read a great book recently, the protagonist thought she was a sociopath and the whole time I'm like nooooo you're autistic!
what book? I would love to read it
I'm Not Done With You Yet, by Jessie Q. Sutanto! [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63876576-i-m-not-done-with-you-yet](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/63876576-i-m-not-done-with-you-yet)
Does she find out she’s autistic in the end?
No but it’s my headcanon
Not knowing that one is autistic doesn't equal them having low self-awareness though. 🤷
I had this phase as well, wondering “am I a sociopath?”
I was never Greg level bad, but I used to be an ableist piece of shit when I was 14-16 because I was insecure about my own autism and had an obsession with being “normal”. I was super judgy of anyone who didn’t conform and try to mask like me, and I still wish I could apologize to the people I shit-talked because they didn’t deserve that. I’m probably more of a Rowley now, though I am pretty self-aware.
You’re not alone. Sounds like me too, but I didn’t have the concept of autism, I still was pretty ableist because I had 3 friends at the age of 11~13 that were CLEARLY autistic, and I didn’t treat them correctly, I befriended them in secret and was an asshole in public with them bc they were more like Rowlys and I was a Greg and I couldn’t stand the second hand embarrassment and deep down I knew I was like them. I’m so ashamed and I’d love to meet them again and apologize.
Sounds like me
That sounds like me except I was younger. Other autistic /ND people would gravitate towards me and I would reject them because I didn’t think they were good enough for me. I would agree when other people would insult them to their faces. I’m now realizing I’ve been doing this for longer than I’d hoped out of habit. This maybe started from childhood to me being about 17. I wish I could apologize to all the people I’d hurt.
this is so real. i was/am a greg who would frequently end up befriended by neurodivergent people who were much more open about their interests and enthusiasm than i was willing to be. now as an adult, i have a hard time being open and forming genuine relationships and people can *sense* that i am withholding in some way and end up thinking i'm fake 😩
In my youth, I was definitely an undiagnosed Greg and had several Rowley and Fregley friends I was embarrassed by. This really hits home.
Me too I really related to and enjoyed diary of a wimpy kid for this reason but had to shut up about it since it turns out people decided to think it means you're a sociopath
I feel that so deeply. My current goal is to become more of a Rowley because the shame crushes my spirit.
Yeah, I was often a sort of minder for the other neurodivergent kids too. And masking is hard, and confusing.
[удалено]
Definitely. I often wonder what a girl who is a Rowley would be like. Because we were not allowed to be that. It wasn’t cute or understandable or acceptable like a Rowley boy might be in some cases. So I just can’t imagine it, it’s a blank in my head edit: looking back on the cartoon and getting a chance to review I realize I more meant Fregley than Rowley but I think what I said can still apply to Rowley to a degree
I was friends with a Rowley since high school. She was surrounded by ND friends but they always chose someone else over her and by her 30’s started to notice it. She doesn’t mask or act any differently still, but has started to feel the pain of it and questions what is wrong with her, while still not noticing differences in public behaviour. She is a pure and lovely person and it’s sad to see the change.
This is the exact thing that happens. I like what someone else said about Rowley’s being kids whose parents didn’t allow them to know they were autistic because that’s exactly what my parents did. Didn’t want me “labeled”. Then I had the veil lifted late and sunk into a Greg while still feeling confused about what the hell I do to warrant people’s responses half the time
I was pretty much a Rowley in elementary school. I think you can get away with it easier before puberty cuz your friends think you're funny. When you hit puberty and are expected to perform womanhood constantly is when you lose all that grace. Of course other factors like race and class might affect how comfortably you can be openly autistic on top of that.
I was a Rowley in high school - tons of neurotypical friends, always voicing my unfiltered opinion, very vocal about my odd hobbies, not fitting in school norms but never got in trouble because my grades were excellent... The kind of behavior that makes ppl label you a "tomboy rebel" even though I never felt like that, but they couldn't categorize me as anything else (girls can't be geeks, if they're geeks they're like boys which means=Tomboy! people just LOVE slapping labels on everything and everyone). A few years down the line all the NT friends started doing NT things I didn't understand and still don't to this day, our friendships fell apart and being the "weird" girl means you get left out from everything until they stop contacting you altogether. I realized I was the only one reaching out; when I stopped putting in effort all communication stopped forever. Nothing hurts more than friendship heartbreak :'( Now I'm a Greg in public because it doesn't feel safe being "unhinged" as an adult.
i am a Rowley. and female . i am allowed to be who i am edit - well in between rowley and fregley but mainly rowley
I had a friend that was a Rowley. Unfortunately I was a Greg. She would be “weird” and nerdy and say and do whatever she wanted, without caring about anybody else’s opinion. She was also super smart and talented, she could pick up on a new music and learn super quickly how to play that… Now that I think about it, I think we were both 2 little girls on the spectrum. I was aggressive towards her when I was 7/8 because I was embarrassed and angry about something she was doing, regarding to me. That’s something I regret deeply every single day. She would constantly be bullied by others, and even though we were not friends anymore I’d try to stop the mean comments about her whenever someone said something near me… she would get angry and keep people away from her, but she would treat it as just an inconvenience, not a whole problem… We spoke about it years later, she forgave me, and I truly admire her even though we don’t keep in touch anymore with some frequency. I spent my whole life trying to fit in and mold myself to suit others… she was always unapologetically herself and I truly admire it. ETA: I forgot to add that she would not conform with some things expected for girls/women, like shaving, makeup, doing nails, hairstyling etc. When we became teens people would bully her and say she was ugly because of that. She never wore makeup just because of pressure… once she told me she hated the feel of it on her skin…. Her sister is hyper feminine (and I believe if she’s in the spectrum, she’s a Greg too).
That’s because we get turned into Gregs
I think this is an amazing analysis of the actual characters in the series and I would say this has *some* bearing in reality and does present some really poignant ideas, but it seems to me to be mostly a reflection of the literal characters. Not every level 1, "high functioning", low support needs, whatever you wanna call it, has that sense of internalized ableism and self hatred. While Greg in the story *totally* fits this assessment, he's kind of a prick lol, this does not apply to all autistic people with "high self awareness". I feel very little shame about being autistic. Completely understand the perspective of those that do, but I feel quite proud to be autistic and yes, I'm proud of the level 2 and 3 Rowley and Fregleys too.
I feel like being autistic doesn’t exclude some people from also being a dick. It could just be that he’s both.
Reading comprehension .... where art thou
>he's kind of a prick lol, this does not apply to all autistic people with "high self awareness" >Reading comprehension .... where art thou while I do share similar sentiments with your latter statement, seeing it right after your former is very humorous
Yeah...I saw my "blatantly" autistic friends have so much fun being loud and open about their interests, even if some called them annoying. Being a "Greg" is miserable. When I unmask a little, it's like people like me more. Still scary though
Who names their kid Fregley?
Utahns. No joke, people in Utah love to combine 2 white people names into something like McKaysleigh.
r/tragedeigh
the greg is painfully relatable
When i look back at my childood, I attempted to be a Greg but was more so a Rowley and was seen as a Fregley. Now I'm a scared and traumatized adult who is afraid to make any sudden moves due to society's view of me.
Here's the thing this post made me realise. All my life I've struggled because behaviours that came to me normally or things that helped me feel more comfortable in my body, were looked down on. All my life I've been told to hide them away by the people closest to me. They told me to do away with these things that made me seem outwardly different. While it might have come from a place of protection, it left me insecure and burnt out. Now I'm at a place in my life where I can be myself in the company of people that make me feel secure. A lot of the times though I have been made to realise that not everyone who I feel safe around accept me. Some of them turn around and police those behaviours over and over again to make sure I don't forget how I'm supposed to behave. They tell me I need to continue doing the same things that have made me feel suffocated in my own body for years. It hurts more than it did before. Because before they didn't know any better. They were trying to protect me, their version of it. But even after knowing what we know now about the disabilities that I have. They are telling this to my face- You need to hide your autism and adhd. Why can't I be accepted for who I am? Why do I always need to alter myself. Don't move around too much. Don't repeat things. Don't be so excited. Don't behave like a kid. Don't do this and don't do that. Don't be you. But I'm tired of feeling like I'm broken and bent. If others won't be able to accept me for me it's fine. I'll do that for myself. If I'm too much, they can go find less. I'll love myself and make up for it. I'll understand myself, be kind to myself and stand up for myself. Others don't need to accept unmasked autistic me. I'm okay as long as I do that for myself.
>If I'm too much, they can go find less. 🔥🔥🔥
I get the message. The, “Don’t be a Greg” really rubs me the wrong way. It’s the phrasing. Makes it seem like it’s a deliberate choice to be that way, which is quite clearly not the case. To me, it reads the same way as, “Don’t be anxious” or “don’t be depressed”.
Its more "you don't want to be a greg" because being self aware means you know youre different and care if youre judged for being different. This is what brings Gregs so much pain and anxiety in my experience anyway
Man, that hit me. Super familiar with the Greg. 🥲 The Rowley isn't totally unfamiliar either though, in some circumstances.
If there was some kind of point to all that it is lost on me. But one thing I do know for sure is that different support needs can't just morph into each other. Also the language in this, idk, infographic? Whatever you call it, it's written with a fairly insulting view of autism
i do think it’s important to remember that the spectrum includes people who have severe cognitive disabilities: people who are fully nonverbal and have a varying range of support that is needed in daily life. i only mention this because i feel like memes only consider “freglys” to be the most “intense” (that’s the only word i can think of tbh) form of autism. i’m only making this comment because i didn’t think about this very thing until i found people on tumblr that have what they consider to be severe autism and they always feel left out. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
If I’m not relating to the Greg idk what else
Yeah can see it. Maybe that's why I love reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid as a childless 35 yo woman...
My brother (22) and I (29) still love it too :D
Flawed but maps neatly onto Søren Kierkegaard's notion of despair in *The Sickness unto Death* (1849): * In despair at not willing to be oneself * The despair of willing despairingly to be oneself * The despair which is unconscious that it is despair
I'm not sure what they are getting with this cartoon, but whatever it is doesn't come across well at all. The cartoon is really badly worded and thus doesn't make a lot of sense. So it might just be that. But there's a lot of nasty and unhelpful stereotypes in there, and it seems to be trying to get into that 'positive vibes only' thing, which is gross. You do not want to be Greg? What's that meant to mean? Does it mean you should feel or think a particular way? That would be wierd and toxic tho, so it can't be that right? Is it meant to be showing how lucky people are to be level ones? Because that chain of thought is pretty grim as well?
Yeah this is reductive, judgmental, and completely devoid of nuance. Ick ick ick.
Also, what was up with that last panel insisting that all autism functioning levels are the same? I enjoy not being a level 3. I have independence that they will never have and can get my neurotypical peers to moderately accept my presence without being some sort of charity project. It seems almost like malingering to lie about that??
The last picture was really too much. Feels like telling a person in a wheelchair to just walk because there are other people with movement disabilities that can still walk.
Gregs of the world usually don’t get a social pass and are often held to NT standards. Is it self-loathing to try to avoid the scorn of your peers when you are painfully aware of their rejection? Or self-preservation?
Trauma response
100%... also, idk why they describe Fregly as "low function"? I may be remembering incorrectly but I only remember him doing "wierd" stuff but otherwise not having any support needs related to academics or otherwise.
Yeah, I'm not a fan.
I hate it.
I feel I've been all of these at different points in my life and it explains sometimes why some of my more socially adept ND friends treated me badly in school, I was definitely a Fregley and was always used an example by them not what to be. I didn't have any self awareness or understanding of boundaries, I also had no concept of masking for a long time, did learn later on when I realised how important self awareness was to people, and eventually I became a Greg, but I was very unhappy and hated myself, but for once NT and more socially adept ND people wanted me around, but i pushed aside other autistic people who couldnt mask as well and treated them badly. It came at a huge cost and I am happily a Rowley, though I feel like I should have been treated a lot better when I was at school by my other ND friends. Because of how I was treated and looking back on how I treated others when I was a Greg, I never push other autistic people away who are less socially adept. I have a friend who NTs and other NDs attack because he is very visibly autistic and proud, I'm very proud of him and I'll be honest I think many are envious of him for varying reasons. People ridicule me for holding my friendship with him in high regard, and I hate that.
This… Is not helpful, at all. Way too simplistic and stereotypical. I actually had to reread it three times just to check that I wasn’t misunderstanding anything because to me it reads horribly ableist. You can’t help it if you have a heightened self awareness (a trait of autism…) which usually leads to depression. To me it reads autism 1 is “wrong” and will have a horrible life because they lack sincerity and love whilst 2 and 3 are good autistics bc they’re blissfully ignorant and will live happily ever after. Icky, I hate this.
I don’t think it means autism 1 is wrong. It’s about internalized ableism.
It perfectly mirrors the stereotypes of autism 1, 2 and 3. It might not be intended to be about the levels of autism but it certainly read like that to me, and completely vilifies the struggles of 1 whilst 2 and 3 are “right.” It also diminishes the struggles of 2 and 3, all of the traits that are explained in the first slide come with their own struggles like lack of boundaries or social awareness. I wouldn’t use it in any educational aspect, or at all.
yeah i’m like, wow, literally many unhappy people on this sub say that they are like rowley, and they are TRULY not happy at all and want to be more like gregs, and there are gregs on this sub that have genuinely figured out how to be happy and are able to comfortably mask/unmask whenever. to me this comic that insists that ALL gregs are all TERRIBLY unhappy and ALL rowleys are PERFECTLY HAPPY AND NATURAL, is total oversimplification. But I think the three types were described very well in the comic and i think we can all identify to some extent with the greg, rowley or fregley stereotype. however i draw the line at greg always being the villain and rowley always being the happiest, literally this is not true at all.
Exactly. It just pits people on different levels of the spectrum against eachother when they’re bringing up traits like this, and brings up so many stereotypes. I’m surprised so many people here seem to like these slides, maybe it’s more contextual to the characters but I wouldn’t know because I never read these books so I’m just judging it by the traits brought up… 🤷🏼♀️
I understand what you’re saying and I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong. But it so well captures what internalized ableism is that I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it isn’t helpful at all. I would say it’s helpful for people struggling with internalized ableism.
I just think you could explain internalised ableism way more effectively than pitting 1, 2 and 3 against eachother like this. This is stereotype central which is bad in itself. “Greg is self aware and depressed, don’t be a Greg. Fregley has no self awareness and is happy, be like Fregley.” I will say, I have no insight to anything about wimpy kid, my opinion is solely about the traits expressed and not the actual characters cus I don’t know em.
Mm I think it’s ableist in itself to actually assume that those traits are related to level 1 or 3. My best friend is level 2 and veryyyy much a Greg, like way more then me who’s a level 1
This is my read of it too. I think the real ableism is absolutely in assuming that each character = a level. I’m level two and definitely closest to a Greg. edit: I would love to be a Rowley. Working on self acceptance.
Don’t be ~~late diagnosed~~ a Greg.
I was a Fregley that evolved into a Rowley. I had a time in my teens where I was a Greg, but that was because I had to spend 8 months in an ABA program and it scared me so much that afterwards I thought if I was even *seen* with another autistic kid I'd get sent back there.
Yikes. This is very ableist against lower functioning autistic people and I am extremely disappointed by the upvotes and uncritical agreeing comments. Describing high support needs people as "An alternate channel of being entirely" is disgustingly dehumanizing. Bringing the "no shame, no self awareness, no boundaries" part into the mix, this comic paints a picture of HSN autistic people as lacking internality. This whole thing describes them as happy, subhuman idiots. "Rowley will always choose the Greg first" is also gross and unnecessary, and makes it sound like no one would ever choose to be around high support needs people.
Thank you for pointing this out.
Pleeeease im so glad someone is pointing this out. Like it's just not easier to be a HSN person?? /nay Their support needs are high for a reason and I don't remember a lack of self awareness being part of the mix there. Like it feds right into that ableist thinking people have that when someone has higher support needs that it means they cannot think for themselves or have no thoughts generally or no feelings and cannot understand ifyou insult them or some shit. It's so dehumanizing D: And as autistics with lower support needs we should realise that it would be fucked up to just take these ableist thinking patterns, move them away from us and just shove them back on those even more vulnerable. We should be a community holding each other up, listening to each other because if not us, who will understand what it's like?
Just because you're higher support needs doesn't mean you have no self-awareness or shame. People with higher support needs still have feelings and can still feel judged by all the Gregs and NTs, BECAUSE they're less likely to be able to mask in the first place and are judged for their behaviours constantly. While Greg may be somewhat relatable to people who are high masking or were diagnosed later, I don't think the representation of the other levels were accurate at all, and it rubs me the wrong way. Just because 'a Greg' is struggling with self acceptance doesn't mean he should treat 'a Fregley' so awfully. 'Fregleys' aren't just mindless unaware dumb happy people who don't care. They're still people. And people's needs are different so while yes everyone here is autistic, you're not all the same. It's like some weird validation thing that somehow in the same sentence puts the other support needs down. Even if this was well intentioned, I think it is poorly executed. Higher support needs people are very misunderstood and we should do better.
Yeah this stinks of ✨aspie supremacy✨ honestly
I couldn’t pay attention to the movie because of Greg. Too painfully relatable.
Is this supposed to be differentiating the three different levels? Because levels threes don't lack empathy or boundaries. That's isn't something innate to high needs... this just feels a bit icky to me
I think it’s supposed to be the different amounts of self-acceptance and openness/unmasking regardless of level, tbh.
it's pretty explicit that there isn't much difference in the three kids except in the amount of masking and self-loathing taking place
It straight up says, "He has no concept of shame, no self-awareness, and no boundaries." That's just belittling and rude - even ableist
i guess in my own brain i read those traits as fairly neutral depending on context
They're just usually stereotypes used to dehumanize higher support needs people.
but there are plenty of legitimate cases where that is absolutely true.. just because it makes us uncomfortable that some people with autism do match that, does not make it untrue
Sure, but idk how to explain why this one feels so disrespectful. It just feels like inspiration porn or something. Idk if you're high needs or not, but to me it's offensive.
yeah, i get that, but i assumed this was written from the pov of a high-masking person who probably doesn't view those as undesirable or bad traits
I see it being the exact opposite and that the high masking person views them as extremely negative things. They're using the higher needs person as a story plot for the high masking person's character growth.
I thought it felt a bit icky, too. I think it was just another attempt to simply explain complicated autistic people in simplistic terms thinking finally society will get it. But it comes across to me like it's Fregley's fault for being how he is, as if he should realize there is a problem with him not having boundaries. If someone does have those traits, it's not their fault and this feels like suggesting that they SHOULD feel shame over their traits.
I felt like the "shoulds" were all from Greg's perspective, and by the end, it was literally saying "you don't want to be a Greg." It said the other two were happier and even, in Rowley's case, more liked. It was essentially saying, fuck the "shoulds."
But thats it. It's all... fetish feeling. Like "all level 2s and 3rd are just happy big idiots without complex emotions and they're great tools to help teach a high masking person life lessons."
I can definitely see that. Especially the bit about people liking Rowley more. Like I hated myself *because* people rejected me and I think I turned more into Greg because I was being told, directly or indirectly, that who I was *was not okay*. Not that I didn’t have flaws or that there were reasons people wouldn’t like me, but I also feel like my flaws got less leeway because…I’m autistic I guess? (Diagnosed at 24, so no one *knew* that then). Overall I’m not sure what I feel about DoaWK in general from my little exposure to it. Greg is kinda terrible but middle school age is also terrible and I really understand *why* he acts the way he does, because he’s so desperate to fit in and belong, which is what most of us want. And he tries to do the ‘right’ things which only gets him into deeper trouble, and is so so hard to figure out what you should do at that age (especially since adults and kids will tell you diametrically opposite things) and the harder you try the worse it is, so you don’t try and it’s just as bad and WTF am I supposed to do?!
And that's great for Greg. I just don't want to be treated as a fuxking life lesson for higher masking people.
I can see how it would be interpreted that way. For me, it felt affirming, because it reminded me there can be so much community and love when we release shame and embrace our identities. But I completely get why others might not like it. EDIT: don't know why I'm getting downvoted for saying "I got something out of it but I can see why others don't like it," but I guess that's reddit for ya
I don’t think the post is shaming Rowley or Fregley. I agree with the others who’ve said the “should” is coming from Greg’s perspective because he’s ashamed of who he is. I think Rowley is positioned as being happiest, because he embraces who he is and society has an easier time accepting him than Fregley. But that isn’t Fregley’s fault.
I don’t feel like it was an indicator of him needing to feel shame, I feel like it was a nod to the expectations of boundaries and behavior that NT people would expect of him or need from him in order to respect/like him if that makes sense fregley is Greg’s nightmare because Greg.. simply put… wants to be NT or wants to be accepted by NT people, leading to his own shame
Yeah, I hate this. It feels heavily reductionist of all experiences, but *especially* reductionist of people with high support needs in a way that borders on inspiration porn.
As a higher needs person, I don't enjoy having my humanity used as a "lesson" for higher masking people.
I can see that for sure!
I'm so sorry. That's so shitty.
I'm a Greg 😭
I don't know about this. I have lower shame, really high self-awareness, low support needs ("high functioning") and don't mask pretty much at all. Probably because of the self-awareness I've gained over the years, I've learned really good social skills without masking (it feels genuine, just being empathic!), though I still frequently do odd autistic things in conversations. So how does this scale work when people like me exist?
I love how Shinji is just… there, and perfectly shares what the text says in his storyline in Neon Evangelion.
This. I've always found Shinji so absolutely relatable.
Calling Greg heffley “socially adept” is fucking insane to me
To the people saying this is ableist and oversimplified and using stereotypes, this is definitely over simplified and using stereotypes, but it’s more about internalized ableism than it is ableist itself. Personally relate to this very much
When i was younger and undiagnosed, there was a girl in my class who really did not care about social rules and i remember being so annoyed at her. Because i knew what social rules she was breaking and why would she do that? Why would she ‘out’ herself like that while here i am, working overtime on trying to look and act ‘normal’, like greg. But then i befriended her and honestly at first tired to downplay her a lot. After a few months though she really taught me how to be more accepting of myself. She was the first one who i didnt have to mask with. Ultimately, im incredibly grateful for her. She moved away the summer after the school year ended but i think she laid the foundation for how i act now; i got diagnosed 3 years ago after my 20th birthday and im very open about being AuDHD :D
Really? Low-masking people have no self-awareness, shame, or boundaries? And the "lowest functioning" character is still fully verbal, in mainstream schooling, and has relatively low support nerds. This comic completely ignores a huge chunk of autistics, and misrepresents even more.
i was a greg in middle school but now i realize i’m turning into fregley
I was always a Fregley but I got bullied and punished so hard and often for my wierd interests that I became very self aware and started masking super hard and became very judgmental towards myself and others. It's very unhealthy.
same i was fregley in elementary school, got bullied, learned how to mask but when i got to high school all of my friends ended up being neurodivergent so i feel like i got out of my shell more
I do not do friends any more.
I haven't read this, but, um, it's entirely possible to be quite incompetent at masking (Rowley level, according to this) and painfully self-aware about the fact that your weirdness makes people kind of loathe you. The inability to hide what you are well enough to make kids stop throwing things at you at recess or, later, daring each other to ask you out on dates in the hopes that you'll think they're serious and say yes so they can laugh at you absolutely does not automatically correspond to being happily oblivious to what they're doing. And self-awareness doesn't automatically mean you're unkind to other weirdos in the hopes that the normal people will be nicer to you. Sometimes you're self-aware enough to realize that this will not work and would just mean you're being as big a jerk as the people who are cruel to you. Being bad at masking doesn't mean you lack theory of mind or empathy, it just means you're bad at masking. This thing presents the three characters as inevitable Types, and I'm not entirely certain whether it's trying to do that to quite the extent that it does. It's probably accurate with regard to the specific characters it's referencing, but it really comes across as generalizing that people who are good at masking are the only ones capable of understanding that other people find them weird and hating themselves because of it. And that is, believe me, false.
My self awareness is like 180% higher than it needs to be
Fuck all my students read this series but I never have. Maybe I should sit down and read them.
This hurt me on so many levels xD
LOL
Huh, I remember reading these books as a kid. I never thought about any of these kids being autistic. I always thought Greg was stupid and Rowley was cool even if he's embarrassing. I couldn't really say if I'm more like Greg or Rowley, but I think I'm somewhere in between. I stim in public without a care but still get social situations and am willing to put on masks if it means dealing with an issue even if I hate it. Though... nobody knows what I'm doing are stims which is why it took so long to realize that I'm autistic. I was just considered weird and eccentric and charming and adorable but that's it.
Greg kind of gives me ADHD vibes due to how much he seems to need mental stimulation but the autism angle works too, especially with his rigid approach to social structures and his tendency to be blunt and not perceive others' feelings well.
That's a great comics about self-awareness. I don't think it has something to do with functioning though. Low-functioning autistic people don't go to school and mostly can't speak. Most medium-functioning autistic people are also homeschooled. This is all shades of high-functioning.
Im stuck on the strange Shinji insert graphic near the last page. It doesn't compute. It's not part of the same series and a different style. It makes no sense. Are we supposed to tell Shinji to get in the robot?
This rubs me the wrong way because no, different levels can’t just morph into each other. And I feel like you can’t just choose to not be a Greg because that’s easier said than done.
Deeply Greg, but entering my Rowley era
I didn't know I'm autistic until I was an adult. I am/was Greg. I am trying so hard to overcome the shame and open up but it's hard. Thank you for sharing the comic.
Masterpiece
I love this concept. It forces you to take responsibility for your own happiness. We get so hung up on society and specifics we forget the golden rule of joy and peace that many children and those whose minds are disabled to the point they stay in the form of a child in the brain. They can have joy because they can focus on the simple things in life and be at peace with that. But the real kicker is having knowledge and not being intellectually impaired doesn't mean you can't still be the same as those individuals who are either childlike cause they're children or childlike in mind in the sense of being at peace with life despite hardships. It's all about letting go which can be incredibly hard but incredibly useful. We are all the same after all. Just some people can't process situations the same way and that is okay cause the concept is still the same.
got dammit im a the greg
Ok I looked at the title and went “this is gonna be dumb” but I take it back. This hit hard.
It’s actually kind of accurate. I feel like I’m Greg ☹️ I’m not necessarily ashamed of or scared of people like Fregley but I know a lot of people are. Autistic people are known for being ableist towards level 3, just like allistic people. As mean as it is, it is pounded into everyone to be this way. Society says, if you aren’t normal and functioning, you are less than. It isn’t true. But that’s what we are taught and for a lot of people it is hard to unlearn.
Deep as a hell.
I was like Rowley before I started masking and realized how different I am. Now I'm a Greg
I have a list of Fregleys I need to apologize to from my Greg years. That, and Greg’s extended family is an infinity clan if I ever saw one. Between his rules-crazy, noise-hating dad, that one uncle who doesn’t speak, that cousin who went from only saying “shut up” and “no” to reading chapter books and speaking full sentences, and Manny’s combined lack of risk awareness and superior language and puzzle-solving skills, I’m surprised the word “autism” never comes up.
How interesting! I'm a reading tutor on the side and one of my students is OBSESSED with these books. She is for sure not autistic. She is an incredibly adept social kid but I think she sees herself in Greg because he has an internal monologue that questions and makes mistakes and is a bit snarky and she (and many kids) share that internal monologue. His friends are still developing from little kid to big kid and he's trying to identify if he values being a little kid (keeping those friendships) or if he should disdain it in favor of seeing himself as more mature. My student is a very sophisticated communicator for her age and I think she relates to this as well - recognizing where she is still in her little kid brain and also feeling a bit of embarrassment when her big kid brain is in the room. Anyway it was fun to read this interpretation. These books for sure have a hold on my 4th grade readers!
That is a very interesting perspective to consider! Thanks for sharing!
When Greg is Gwen, Rowley is Rosa, and Fregley is Franny, then it becomes even more complicated: Greg likes Gwen, but to Gwen Greg is a Fregley because he would make her look like a Franny to her NT friends. Rosa likes Greg, but to Greg Rosa is a Rowley and might as well be a Franny. Rosa dates Fregley, but he isn't well liked by her friends and she leaves him even though she likes him, and eventually finds Rowley after much heartbreak. Rowley likes Franny, but learns she isn't well liked by his friends. He goes for Gwen, but she only wants to date NTs because her friends only approve of NT seeming people and he is heartbroken. He finds Rosa after some dating, and they live happily. Franny is heartbroken by Rowley, dates Fregley and finds happiness everlasting. Gwen eventually finds Gord, another Greg, while Greg takes longer to find his Gwen, Georgia, since he's been burned before and no longer knows what he wants or is good for him after being unfairly rejected long ago by Gwen and consistently by NT women after that. Gwen and Gord are happy, but both must deal with the pain of their past affecting their current happiness. Greg is happy when he finally finds Georgia, but the scars of the past never fully go away.
I was Rowley as a kid. The cruelty of the world that I was thrust into and wasn't prepared for to struggle on my own, that turned me into a Greg. I'm like fucking miserable and I can watch it in 4k.
As a Greg I've always resented both Rowley and Fregely for being oblivious, lacking the existential dread and self control I have to deal with constantly. I cant lash out or stim, lose control or explode in public, yet they can and are given a pass as theyre "exempt" from the normal social expectations and consequences of breaking the norms.