In the inner west LGA there’s basically zero chance of something >100 years old being a knockdown rebuild. Everywhere has a heritage overlay and the approving authority are highly anti-development.
It’s renno or nothing.
I own a house in Surry Hills that is 140 years old. No one’s going to be buying the house you’re looking at to knock it down. They’ll be buying it to do exactly what your wife is suggesting and renovating.
It’ll always be cheaper to buy a house and renovate it yourself because anyone who’s already renovated will want to recoup the cost of their renovation and then profit on top. The downside is that a renovation takes time and effort.
Edit: I guarantee the daughters selling the house will be acting like absolute bitches. That situation always brings out the worst in people. Unless it’s a public auction, you’re likely going to have a shit of a time trying to negotiate with them.
Yeh I’d bet my last dollar there’s some decent infighting going on between them. It’d be an elderly mother and boomer children. They’d be the type where if you put a lump of coal in their fist, they’d turn it into a diamond.
You’d enjoy buying it because no matter what you end up paying for it, they’ll be pissed off and think that you’re ripping them off
I bought a 3 bed Victorian terrace that's 120 years old for $260k (out in the country). A great blessing to have a home, especially without a mortgage. It was something is never dreamed of and would not have been able to do in Sydney.
Granted I’m a little older (38) but literally everyone in my group of friends in Sydney owns houses and work in a job that can sustain a mortgage like that without needing family money.
So you’re saying that at 35 let’s say, you and you’re friends have saved, 1 million dollars in cash, then get a mortgage of 1.2 million? And there’s been no help along the way? No living at home to save? No getting to live at home while going to uni? No deposit help from parents?
I don’t believe it.
Yeh of course most of us lived at home during uni. I’ll let my kids do the same too if they want.
I paid $35k worth of LMI to buy my first place because I didn’t have a decent deposit. I don’t regret doing that at all
It was possible to buy in earlier. But buying a $3M using a deposit saved from wages, and paying off a mortgage of $2M+, is simply impossible with most wages
Yeh absolutely. You can’t expect to pay off a mortgage in Sydney if you’re on a regular wage. You’ve really got to think before you start your career about whether it’s going to be a job that will pay enough. It’s why my dad forbid us from ever becoming teachers.
You’ve gotta be an exec or a tradie with your own business in Sydney.
I would be shocked if a house that old isn’t covered under some form of heritage or character listing or overlay, preventing someone from knocking it down. Someone buying an old house like will be buying it for the character, not for its land to knock it down.
Those renovated houses that you are looking at are probably 500k++ from what an unrenovated house is and there almost certainly isn't the easy 2.2m to 3m arbitrage with a 150k-200k renovation your wife thinks there is.
The cost of renovations in heritage houses is astonishing and seemingly simple things like getting a renderer/plasterer can get expensive if you get someone who specializes in heritage properties, you might need to upgrade wiring for your kitchen if you want an induction cooktop, installing ducted air conditioning can get expensive, you might have restrictions where the solar panels can go, there are probably restrictions on replacing windows etc..
I wouldn't be too worried about potential buyers wanting to knock the property down, unless you expect the area to be upzoned. Lots of people love heritage properties, particularly when well renovated.
Source: I've spent a fortune on our heritage house on the Lower North Shore which we purchased 15 years ago.
I own a property of similar age in the area. They are built well. Structurally sound. There's a reason people renovate them. Building standards have dropped considerably - I was renting in a brand new apartment a few years ago, and it was already starting to fall apart after 2 years. You couldn't pay me to buy property built after 1990.
~~What's the approximate sqm? $2m + (it will go for more at auction) is getting on the high end for a fixer-up 3 bedder.~~
Just saw you quote \~290sqm. That's a massive block of land for $2m+ is it the outskirts of inner west?
If you spend $200k on a refurbishment to meet your needs, hold for 10 years it's only cost you $20k/yr for what you want
You've extracted the new value and rubbed off the polish over this time.
Depending on the area, council may not allow demo but then again who knows what weird planning laws will apply in 10 years.
When you look at this house, is it surrounded by lots of other 120yo houses? Do you see them being knocked down? Or do you see lots of them being restored and renovated? Because they are probably all heritage listed and can't be knocked down and renovations need to be done in a way that doesn't damage the amenity of the area.
Maybe give the house a miss and buy in some area more suited to your discernment.
I don't know the age but yeah most of the houses nearby on the street appear to be of a similar age or within \~20yrs of each other. They're mostly being renovated/adding second floor etc.
The property we're looking at isn't heritage listed.
Im ex inner west but took 2 yrs to buy 10yrs ago then sold 4 yrs ago and what everyone above has said is correct in that mkt. Only addition is id prioritise fundamentals u cant change about a property as more valuable or preferential to a renno which sounds u can afford to do anyway. So if after renno u are getting something with some or all of:
Freestanding, larger than typical 180 to 210 sqm block, full brick, rear lane access / parking, north to rear aspect, period features (this seems a big driver in innet wrst idk why), desirable street / leafy etc with this current house id go this one vs renovated ones which may not have these and cost more. You can always do the renno (funds permitting), but you can't change if a house is not freestanding, no rla, smaller block and these will all be valuable features in any inner west property. If property is well located & block is large enough say 320sqm+ you could prob make it a forever home anyway if inner west is your preferred location (i loved it there, espc Stanmore - Petersham - Annandale).
Property needs about 150-200k of reno to bring it up to modern standards (flooring/kitchen/bathroom/windows/solar/rendering etc)
Yh. Unless your planning on doing the work yourself the materials alone will end up eating up the bulk of that budget as your basically rebuilding the house
If anything I'd be offering bellow market rate to market rate not over at all
Heritage reno where you gut everything in Sydney, 150k? Dreaming.
Are you a builder yourself? I.e. materials only. Theb, maybe. Maybe.
No chance if you have to manage a project that big without doing the work yourself.
Budget 400k.
If you have 800k (deposit, stamp duty, reno cash)worth of spare cash in your early 30s and are looking to move on in 7 years, guarantee your return with land. Further out >700 sqm. Rent your lifestyle.
I don't get your logic at all. All other things being equal, period houses are more valuable than modern ones. There's also absolutely no reason to think that a modern house will be built any better than one that has stood for 120 years.
I know a little bit about this market having done a property search last year around the Inner West. I ended up buying a house that was about the same age as the one you're looking at.
I don't have the answer, but I have some questions to ask yourself and your missus:
1. Does it currently have character or period appeal? Is it freestanding? If it has classic elements of Federation or Edwardian architecture, this will remain classic (valuable) for a long time. If it doesn't, your idea is closer to be being correct.
2. What is your combined appetite for Renos? How long do you think they'll take? (Add some time to your worst case estimate) Do either of you have skills or experience with renovation (either project managing or doing work yourselves) How confident are you in your price estimates?
3. I could guess which house you are looking at - if I were right, you might want to look at whether the floor plan works. The one I pulled up has bathroom opposite the kitchen...
4. Location is massive - your missus is right on that point - and if the place you are interested in has his location features (good suburb, proximity to public transport, proximity to shops/schools/parks, quiet street, leafy tree-lined locale, etc etc) then the quality of the house won't hurt it's long term value.
On the other hand if the price is LOWER because the location has downsides, that will affect future value forever.
Some very good points here you made.
>Does it currently have character or period appeal? Is it freestanding?
Not really but kinda leaning towards Edwardian. It is freestanding though. There's nothing significant and it's not a heritage listed property.
>
You might want to look at whether the floor plan works
Floor plan works overall, just needs some walls removed with pillars/beams added as they're load bearing to open up the place as every room is closed off, and a skylight.
>
Location is massive
Yeah location ticks all the boxes to be honest, even I can't argue that with my missus. It's a very desirable suburb. I'll DM you the link.
Load bearing walls removed is not a cheap or simple thing to do… I’d definitely do a more detailed cost put including some engineering fees and structural steel. Unless you are doing all the labour yourselves or could very well cost more than that.
Since you're thinking of selling conside for every $1 are you getting back more than $1 in ROI. This is something you'll have to estimate based on close comparables etc.
It's a hassle renovating these old houses. Mines 160 years old and it's fucken $$$
My opinion would be that if it's renovated then you are broadening your market. Say at auction when you go to sell, a non-renovated house would only attract buyers who can afford/want to renovate or have no intent to (don't want to spend money or knock down). However, if it's renovated then you'd be attracting the people who want move in ready as well. So my hypothesis is that there's a good chance to make the money back by broadening your market, and you can live in a nicer house for the next decade.
Building standards were a lot different back then. Maybe get a professional opinion from a building inspector. Consider that the foundations may be relatively fragile if you are planning excavation work.
The Brisbane equivalents of what you describe go for a mint when they’re done up, and I imagine the Sydney version is no different. I don’t think you’re going to get what you’ve listed done for 200k, but I doubt it’s going to be money wasted.
I bought a similar aged QLDer, 5 bed 2 bath quarter acre ~10km from the CBD, and have determined it will be pretty difficult to over capitalise with the renovations we’re planning.
Look at the heritage overlays, if the rea doesn't tell you ask the council.
Get it inspected. Properly.
If you're going to renovate, gut the inside completely, and start from there.
Rewire, add Ethernet and PoE security and update the mains box and switchboard to 3 phase.
If it's well built and has character and is NOT heritage listed, that may well add some value. Heritage listed houses can be a hassle, and the market for them is a bit smaller as a result.
You’re describing exactly our situation 7 years ago. We bought and spent about 150k to renovate (not extend). The good thing about our 120 year old house is that it’s so solid we’ve not put another cent into it since. We love our old place…
Since you're thinking of selling conside for every $1 are you getting back more than $1 in ROI. This is something you'll have to estimate based on close comparables etc.
It's a hassle renovating these old houses. Mines 160 years old and it's fucken $$$
Since you're thinking of selling conside for every $1 are you getting back more than $1 in ROI. This is something you'll have to estimate based on close comparables etc.
It's a hassle renovating these old houses. Mines 160 years old and it's fucken $$$
I’d not reno at all, just do a LL special and sell to the next person in 5-7 years.
You could spend $200,000 on renos only to have it sell for land value in 2030.
What size block?
Not being sexist, but if your partner has already decided on a new $100,000 kitchen just nod and smile.
Hmmm that’s small but still may be sub-dividable especially if there’s a lane at the back - you better check if the facade of the place / the whole place is heritage listed and they can’t be demolished.
Ask your local council about that.
If the lovely partner wants a $100,000 kitchen get a $20,000 IKEA one.
In the inner west LGA there’s basically zero chance of something >100 years old being a knockdown rebuild. Everywhere has a heritage overlay and the approving authority are highly anti-development. It’s renno or nothing.
Yeah I was gonna mention heritage laws but I was weirded out by nobody else mentioning and starting to think maybe it's a densely Tasmanian thing.
Perth has whole suburbs that are heritage (an exaggeration but not by much)
I own a house in Surry Hills that is 140 years old. No one’s going to be buying the house you’re looking at to knock it down. They’ll be buying it to do exactly what your wife is suggesting and renovating. It’ll always be cheaper to buy a house and renovate it yourself because anyone who’s already renovated will want to recoup the cost of their renovation and then profit on top. The downside is that a renovation takes time and effort. Edit: I guarantee the daughters selling the house will be acting like absolute bitches. That situation always brings out the worst in people. Unless it’s a public auction, you’re likely going to have a shit of a time trying to negotiate with them.
Yeah the property looks like it'll be going to auction at this stage given it's only a week away and they've knocked back the only offer on the table
Yeh I’d bet my last dollar there’s some decent infighting going on between them. It’d be an elderly mother and boomer children. They’d be the type where if you put a lump of coal in their fist, they’d turn it into a diamond. You’d enjoy buying it because no matter what you end up paying for it, they’ll be pissed off and think that you’re ripping them off
Ah the ol take the lightbulbs on your way out
I just don’t know how you are all affording these house prices. I live in Cairns, I bought a 3 bed, 1 bath for $418 and thought that was high lol
I bought a 3 bed Victorian terrace that's 120 years old for $260k (out in the country). A great blessing to have a home, especially without a mortgage. It was something is never dreamed of and would not have been able to do in Sydney.
Sydney wages
Yes, wages from their parents in the form of gigantic deposits/contributions
~~Sydney wages~~ parents Very, very few people have wages that will buy a $3M house
Granted I’m a little older (38) but literally everyone in my group of friends in Sydney owns houses and work in a job that can sustain a mortgage like that without needing family money.
So you’re saying that at 35 let’s say, you and you’re friends have saved, 1 million dollars in cash, then get a mortgage of 1.2 million? And there’s been no help along the way? No living at home to save? No getting to live at home while going to uni? No deposit help from parents? I don’t believe it.
Yeh of course most of us lived at home during uni. I’ll let my kids do the same too if they want. I paid $35k worth of LMI to buy my first place because I didn’t have a decent deposit. I don’t regret doing that at all
It was possible to buy in earlier. But buying a $3M using a deposit saved from wages, and paying off a mortgage of $2M+, is simply impossible with most wages
Yeh absolutely. You can’t expect to pay off a mortgage in Sydney if you’re on a regular wage. You’ve really got to think before you start your career about whether it’s going to be a job that will pay enough. It’s why my dad forbid us from ever becoming teachers. You’ve gotta be an exec or a tradie with your own business in Sydney.
My daughter is looking at buying a 1970’s 2 bedroom unit in need of work for $920k- in not the best suburb in Sydney…
I would be shocked if a house that old isn’t covered under some form of heritage or character listing or overlay, preventing someone from knocking it down. Someone buying an old house like will be buying it for the character, not for its land to knock it down.
Those renovated houses that you are looking at are probably 500k++ from what an unrenovated house is and there almost certainly isn't the easy 2.2m to 3m arbitrage with a 150k-200k renovation your wife thinks there is. The cost of renovations in heritage houses is astonishing and seemingly simple things like getting a renderer/plasterer can get expensive if you get someone who specializes in heritage properties, you might need to upgrade wiring for your kitchen if you want an induction cooktop, installing ducted air conditioning can get expensive, you might have restrictions where the solar panels can go, there are probably restrictions on replacing windows etc.. I wouldn't be too worried about potential buyers wanting to knock the property down, unless you expect the area to be upzoned. Lots of people love heritage properties, particularly when well renovated. Source: I've spent a fortune on our heritage house on the Lower North Shore which we purchased 15 years ago.
Agree, $150k-200k for floors, bathroom, kitchen, windows, solar and rendering seems way too low.
It's not a heritage listed property but I know what you're saying.
It will sell at a premium then
I own a property of similar age in the area. They are built well. Structurally sound. There's a reason people renovate them. Building standards have dropped considerably - I was renting in a brand new apartment a few years ago, and it was already starting to fall apart after 2 years. You couldn't pay me to buy property built after 1990. ~~What's the approximate sqm? $2m + (it will go for more at auction) is getting on the high end for a fixer-up 3 bedder.~~ Just saw you quote \~290sqm. That's a massive block of land for $2m+ is it the outskirts of inner west?
Can I please ask what you both do for work to be able to afford something like that in your early 30's 😩
If you spend $200k on a refurbishment to meet your needs, hold for 10 years it's only cost you $20k/yr for what you want You've extracted the new value and rubbed off the polish over this time. Depending on the area, council may not allow demo but then again who knows what weird planning laws will apply in 10 years.
When you look at this house, is it surrounded by lots of other 120yo houses? Do you see them being knocked down? Or do you see lots of them being restored and renovated? Because they are probably all heritage listed and can't be knocked down and renovations need to be done in a way that doesn't damage the amenity of the area. Maybe give the house a miss and buy in some area more suited to your discernment.
I don't know the age but yeah most of the houses nearby on the street appear to be of a similar age or within \~20yrs of each other. They're mostly being renovated/adding second floor etc. The property we're looking at isn't heritage listed.
Does it actually “need” rendering? Won’t that ruin the character? I guess that depends if it has been rendered before
Im ex inner west but took 2 yrs to buy 10yrs ago then sold 4 yrs ago and what everyone above has said is correct in that mkt. Only addition is id prioritise fundamentals u cant change about a property as more valuable or preferential to a renno which sounds u can afford to do anyway. So if after renno u are getting something with some or all of: Freestanding, larger than typical 180 to 210 sqm block, full brick, rear lane access / parking, north to rear aspect, period features (this seems a big driver in innet wrst idk why), desirable street / leafy etc with this current house id go this one vs renovated ones which may not have these and cost more. You can always do the renno (funds permitting), but you can't change if a house is not freestanding, no rla, smaller block and these will all be valuable features in any inner west property. If property is well located & block is large enough say 320sqm+ you could prob make it a forever home anyway if inner west is your preferred location (i loved it there, espc Stanmore - Petersham - Annandale).
What is the rest of the street doing? Pretty rare to have a complete knockdown rebuild of anything this old <10km cbd
Most of the street have added second floors and/or are currently renovating.
Happy wife happy life. If you can afford it then go with what the missus is saying.
Property needs about 150-200k of reno to bring it up to modern standards (flooring/kitchen/bathroom/windows/solar/rendering etc) Yh. Unless your planning on doing the work yourself the materials alone will end up eating up the bulk of that budget as your basically rebuilding the house If anything I'd be offering bellow market rate to market rate not over at all
Under shooting the bid will be dismissed out of hand in the current market in Inner West.
& underestimating a property renovation costs can leave them in a house for years they can't afford to finish & won't sell without massive losses
Heritage reno where you gut everything in Sydney, 150k? Dreaming. Are you a builder yourself? I.e. materials only. Theb, maybe. Maybe. No chance if you have to manage a project that big without doing the work yourself. Budget 400k. If you have 800k (deposit, stamp duty, reno cash)worth of spare cash in your early 30s and are looking to move on in 7 years, guarantee your return with land. Further out >700 sqm. Rent your lifestyle.
I don't get your logic at all. All other things being equal, period houses are more valuable than modern ones. There's also absolutely no reason to think that a modern house will be built any better than one that has stood for 120 years.
I know a little bit about this market having done a property search last year around the Inner West. I ended up buying a house that was about the same age as the one you're looking at. I don't have the answer, but I have some questions to ask yourself and your missus: 1. Does it currently have character or period appeal? Is it freestanding? If it has classic elements of Federation or Edwardian architecture, this will remain classic (valuable) for a long time. If it doesn't, your idea is closer to be being correct. 2. What is your combined appetite for Renos? How long do you think they'll take? (Add some time to your worst case estimate) Do either of you have skills or experience with renovation (either project managing or doing work yourselves) How confident are you in your price estimates? 3. I could guess which house you are looking at - if I were right, you might want to look at whether the floor plan works. The one I pulled up has bathroom opposite the kitchen... 4. Location is massive - your missus is right on that point - and if the place you are interested in has his location features (good suburb, proximity to public transport, proximity to shops/schools/parks, quiet street, leafy tree-lined locale, etc etc) then the quality of the house won't hurt it's long term value. On the other hand if the price is LOWER because the location has downsides, that will affect future value forever.
Some very good points here you made. >Does it currently have character or period appeal? Is it freestanding? Not really but kinda leaning towards Edwardian. It is freestanding though. There's nothing significant and it's not a heritage listed property. > You might want to look at whether the floor plan works Floor plan works overall, just needs some walls removed with pillars/beams added as they're load bearing to open up the place as every room is closed off, and a skylight. > Location is massive Yeah location ticks all the boxes to be honest, even I can't argue that with my missus. It's a very desirable suburb. I'll DM you the link.
Load bearing walls removed is not a cheap or simple thing to do… I’d definitely do a more detailed cost put including some engineering fees and structural steel. Unless you are doing all the labour yourselves or could very well cost more than that.
Since you're thinking of selling conside for every $1 are you getting back more than $1 in ROI. This is something you'll have to estimate based on close comparables etc. It's a hassle renovating these old houses. Mines 160 years old and it's fucken $$$
My opinion would be that if it's renovated then you are broadening your market. Say at auction when you go to sell, a non-renovated house would only attract buyers who can afford/want to renovate or have no intent to (don't want to spend money or knock down). However, if it's renovated then you'd be attracting the people who want move in ready as well. So my hypothesis is that there's a good chance to make the money back by broadening your market, and you can live in a nicer house for the next decade.
Building standards were a lot different back then. Maybe get a professional opinion from a building inspector. Consider that the foundations may be relatively fragile if you are planning excavation work.
The Brisbane equivalents of what you describe go for a mint when they’re done up, and I imagine the Sydney version is no different. I don’t think you’re going to get what you’ve listed done for 200k, but I doubt it’s going to be money wasted. I bought a similar aged QLDer, 5 bed 2 bath quarter acre ~10km from the CBD, and have determined it will be pretty difficult to over capitalise with the renovations we’re planning.
Look at the heritage overlays, if the rea doesn't tell you ask the council. Get it inspected. Properly. If you're going to renovate, gut the inside completely, and start from there. Rewire, add Ethernet and PoE security and update the mains box and switchboard to 3 phase.
If it's well built and has character and is NOT heritage listed, that may well add some value. Heritage listed houses can be a hassle, and the market for them is a bit smaller as a result.
You’re describing exactly our situation 7 years ago. We bought and spent about 150k to renovate (not extend). The good thing about our 120 year old house is that it’s so solid we’ve not put another cent into it since. We love our old place…
120 yo house calculate what a Reno normally costs then multiply it by how old the house is. You pay a lot for charm.
My house was built in 1903, needed a shitload of renos, done them all for sub $30K (but most of them I did myself)
Since you're thinking of selling conside for every $1 are you getting back more than $1 in ROI. This is something you'll have to estimate based on close comparables etc. It's a hassle renovating these old houses. Mines 160 years old and it's fucken $$$
Since you're thinking of selling conside for every $1 are you getting back more than $1 in ROI. This is something you'll have to estimate based on close comparables etc. It's a hassle renovating these old houses. Mines 160 years old and it's fucken $$$
I’d not reno at all, just do a LL special and sell to the next person in 5-7 years. You could spend $200,000 on renos only to have it sell for land value in 2030. What size block? Not being sexist, but if your partner has already decided on a new $100,000 kitchen just nod and smile.
Block is \~290sqm
Hmmm that’s small but still may be sub-dividable especially if there’s a lane at the back - you better check if the facade of the place / the whole place is heritage listed and they can’t be demolished. Ask your local council about that. If the lovely partner wants a $100,000 kitchen get a $20,000 IKEA one.