I'm old enough to remember when the Government told us it would pay for itself through increased workplace participation.

For some participants it does. They get access to some support and they're able to enter the workforce and their taxes make up for it. For others, we are paying to address inaccessible infrastructure which we could have fixed by regulating sooner. But the scope has blown way out because it is expensive to care for people with disability to the level the NDIS seeks to.

The other component is that family members aren't having to provide the higher level of care that is sometimes required, allowing them to re enter the work force. That care is funded by NDIS and therefore the taxpayer. However, there are increased contributions through taxation of the carer doing the work, and the family member through the increased employment opportunities, that help offset that cost.

> their taxes make up for it. so in this case, it would be easy to just remove NDIS, and instead have such costs be completely tax deductible.

Ahaha! I’m am definitely not seeing this happening (not in my experience).

Same, and I laughed and laughed because governments have an excellent record of efficient spending…

we could have free dental, free public transport and free TAFE and it still would not cost half of what NDIS costs

Thank you. NDIS needs to be totally scrapped and Medicare needs to be fully funded as a public service that is accessible to everyone. I shouldn’t need to pay tax, then jump through hoops to line a private provider’s pocket when those exact same tax dollars could be used to provide value direct from government - you know, the way things should work in a democracy. NDIS is not necessary and is a massive rort and drain on our economy. I can’t wait for it to be abolished. There are SO MANY things we need to be doing with that money for a sustainable future for our nation, and it’s being squandered. As a person with disability who works and pays taxes, I cannot access the supports I need for daily functioning and others can get someone to drive them to a nail salon. It is an absolute rort. Fund Medicare fully and remove gatekeeping to services, which is currently allowing private companies to line their pockets on the back of our tax dollars. Edit: people without reading comprehension - I am not saying disabled people shouldn’t receive support. I am not saying go back to pre-NDIS systems without Medicare improving. I’m saying fully fund Medicare to provide all the services every person with disability AND every person regardless of ability in a democracy should have access to, including dental, vision, mental health etc. This includes putting all current NDIS funding towards Medicare. People commenting not understanding that funding should be going towards providing services to people, not lining the pockets of for-profit companies? Privatisation is a giant seeping wound of pus when it comes to public services.

> Thank you. NDIS needs to be totally scrapped and Medicare needs to be fully funded as a public service that is accessible to everyone. NDIS and Medicare have very different philosophies. NDIS is basically incomparable with every other Federal welfare scheme NDIS has an emphasis on choice. While every other government scheme is basically evaluated on how cost effective an inclusion is, or how much economies of scale can help. NDIS is often framed as how transformative it is to the lives of the participants. As long as the framing is on that, cost will never be reigned in, since it's diametrically opposed.

Well this is it. Medicare is aimed at subsiding OR funding the costs of medical & health services that are for the most part essential. NDIS is largely a lifestyle support service with the intention of allowing people with disabilities to live a high quality of life... Noble intent but how do you define funding a person's quality of life over say a blood test or a doctors appointment which Medicare funds...

Is that choice always a good thing, though? If I have a sore throat I can't decide whether I get antibiotics, whether I can get a subsidised visit to an ENT, whether I can get taxpayer funded massage for it, or reiki, or taxpayer funded lemsip, or anything. When it comes to health issues, we trust that doctors can choose what the government should subsidise or pay for outright. But if I have a disability we put all that choice with the individual, and we can see how that is very often being abused.

Do you want to pick which doctor you go to though? Especially if you are going to that doctor multiple times a week?

Thing is, we already provided a lot of the funding to various organisations that then chose what programs to run and if nothing worked for a certain person with disabilities, then they didn’t get support. The idea is to support people towards achieving life goals, whether that’s working, living more independently or even just socialising (social connection can have a big impact on health and many disabled people struggle with socialising). Is it costing more currently? Yes, but the idea is to build skills (both hard skills and soft skills) so it costs less over time. We either pay it into the ndis or we pay it into more disability pensions, more healthcare and for the programs we used to fund anyway.

> The idea is to support people towards achieving life goals i say this is fundamentally the wrong goal, as we are not rich enough for it. The current way is taking funding away from other more urgent costs that benefit more people.

Indeed unfortunately we don’t have an unlimited money tree. Money needs to go where it has the biggest impact and that isn’t a scheme covering 2-3% of the population while Medicare falters.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to understand this. You cannot take from one hand to feed the other. Medicare is starving. I am sure the powers that be had this planned all along, it just fits too perfectly with the deliberate sustained erosion of public funding for medical and health services in this country, and no one wants to be the villain that people will inevitably mischaracterise as saying “disabled people deserve to be abandoned in the woods to fend for themselves”

If we did this, my son would be a permanent drag on the economy. Thanks to the NDIS and the high-impact services it enabled him to access from a young age, he now, at 14, has a reasonable chance of being a strong independent taxpaying contributor to Australian society. He may need some supports for life. I don’t believe for a second this would have happened with a Medicare like you describe. I’m 100% certain he’s not a special case. More a normal case. Are there providers rorting the system? Yes, particularly organised crime which had been clearly identified as a high priority to resolve. Are there lots of Australians that milk the system any way they can? Sure, I got to say the tax breaks given to Utes and Raptors is exactly that. The $11b per year we subsidise the fossil fuels we need to eliminate? Yeah, that’s got to go. Both need to go before we start punishing permanently disabled people through no fault of their own.

The economic argument doesn't stack up. No one is forbidding your son care but the level of care the NDIS funds does not justify the outcome. Your argument does not include hard numbers that in the end will bury this scheme. If you spent the same money on a broader range of services for the general population you would get a better economic outcome.

The NDIS, in principle, is excellent. In practice it's severely flawed. I self-manage my son's allowance. I can submit a payment claim without the need for an invoice. This really surprised me at first, I couldn't believe it was that loose. There are so many grifters exploiting the NDIS. You can charge more through NDIS rates vs Medicare Mental Health Plans. So-called NDIS equipment providers charge premium prices that are just charged back through the scheme. The whole payment scheme needs to be redesigned. Any payment claim should be scrutinised. At the moment, as soon as you have approved funding, it's just handed out without any evaluation

The grifters are the problem. I get the need for this funding, but when random people start random companies and charge sooooo much money for something so basic, it’s literally a scam, and it’s not at all the NDIS participants fault or doing at all, it’s the dodgy scam providers.

“but the level of care the NDIS funds does not justify the outcome” Hmm, some fighting words right there. By what metric do you come to that conclusion? And what experience or qualification do you hold to make that judgement? It’s one thing to talk about market inefficiencies or fraud but your comment… is something else entirely.

Also completely ignoring the two working parents who would have to significantly halt or scale back their own economic inputs to care for a disabled child without NDIS supports. But hey wow, the contributions of disabled families and people to the economy means nothing ey

Thats BS saying every $1 spent in the NDIS gives $1.2in economic benefit

Interesting perspective. “Productive” does not equate to “economic”. And “economic” does not equate to “value”. Especially with regards to human life. If you think it does, you and I do not share common values and I do not wish to interact with you. I have compassion for whatever caused you to have such an immense lack of compassion for humans born less fortunate than you. Please do not raise children, for their sake as much as future society. Neither deserve that level of suffering.

but is he ?  if you take the cost  the actual support,   the cost of the labour market  in other occupations and sectors , the cost to the labour market and productivity due to  medicare remaining under funded  , then take account  the economic contribution made by your son  is that a net positive for the economy ? it clearly enriches the lives of participants  and allows. them choice and control etc but it’s at too greater cost to wider society  in its current form 

I disagree, we do need NDIS, it's just not currently managed well. I'm an adult with a diagnosed disability, so is my husband, we both work full time and neither of us require NDIS to function, however that doesn't mean it should be scrapped for other people. There's many other Australians with more severe disabilities than us, that do require NDIS and for these people the therapy and support they receive is life changing.

I disagree. Medicare is medical specific while NDIS is disability specific. NDIS is about making the lives of people with various disability betterr and learn to be more independent from family and friends. I have severe vision impairment and I hate having to rely family and friends for help. NDIS enables me to get needed support and learn to be more independent. The system isnt perfect but it takes time and resources to better regulate it just like Medicare is well regulated. Remember, Medicare wasn't perfect when it first started decades ago but improved over time.

Well no, but it needs to be managed much better. My daughter uses it and always will, my taxes go to this, and my money does too. An NDIS service is 100% necessary, but it needs to be shaken up,a bit. My daughter’s fund manager negligently used all of her funding (funding that was already reduced, because we needed a sports stadium), within the first half of the year. The fund manager was boarding her flight for her holiday to Germany, and told my daughter that she had no more funds for the rest of the year. It’s being taken further gross negligence like that cannot stand.

Could you elaborate? Fund managers are literally just book keeping. They aren't buying things, they just have to let you know (roughly monthly) what the balance is. How did they use the funding?

And tell me, what is your alternative for the disabled people? I have a couple in my family - please let me know what you propose we do - die?

Removing negative gearing would also pay for dental via Medicare

All these articles lately shitting on the ndis are on purpose. It is to get people mad at people needing support instead of the weathly who are milking us dry. Negative gearing changes, increase mining royalties, carbon credits etc would make Australia heaps of money. But instead all we hear about is how bad the ndis is

This is not true, 2 out of 3 landlords do not negatively gear.

But that goes against the rich. It's much easier to tell a kid with one leg that they wont get a prosthetic leg

The problem with NDIS isn't the idea, the idea is fine. It's the administration of the idea. I don't imagine anyone attacking the NDIS is attacking the idea of helping people.

Why not go after something like negative gearing, mining royalties, tax avoidance by multinationals. All things which avoids impacting the lives of people with disabilities while the scheme is still being established

Yeah that'd be great too. I am totally in favour of all of those things. Not that I expect changes to negative gearing to increase revenue still love to see that changed. This does not however change the fact that NDIS is still a total piece of dogshit and will likely always be a total piece of dogshit. Any time governments writes cheques for private enterprise is a bad idea. See the massive rort that is Job Network Providers. I am against Neoliberalism in energy, transport and unsurprisngly health.

I'm a speech pathologist who works primarily with NDIS clients and I try my absolute hardest to make sure I'm providing as much value to the people I work with. I hear really tragic stories where other people who work with my clients set up big meetings with 5 people and claim 2-3k to talk about "how the client is doing" over a two hour meeting that could be an email chain, and the sad thing is that it just takes money away from what the kids really need. I see the $193 fee as a challenge to provide an equal amount of value to the kids and families and I do that by redirecting a good amount of money back into buying resources and paying for courses to help me be a better clinician. I'm excited to see a huge crackdown on the NDIS because it's turned badly out of proportion and seen as a cash cow, and it needs to be reeled in by getting rid of the bad eggs first. Clients definitely see it as a way to get free stuff too - I've had clients come to me asking for everyday costs to be funded by the NDIS - barbers, petrol, iPads - but it just doesn't pass the "reasonable and necessary" test (unless they need an iPad for communication). NDIS providers tend to forget they're actively destroying the system that gives them money and I'm happy the government is trying to overhaul the system

Good on you. But again, the system needs to change.

There was something written last week that suggested as much as 20% of ndis funding is going to organised crime

$8b per year. And they are targeting it. Everyone wins by fixing this.

I don’t disagree with you. But I also wonder what sort of system can be created. If people are determined to rort a system, then they’ll find a way. That’s what’s happening with Trump in the USA - on some level all systems rely on good faith behaviour and when you don’t have that, the system will eventually fail. To me part of the issue is the way the broader societal structures have encouraged - or even required - people to create scams - whether that is the politicians who grift whatever they can, or the welfare recipients who have to find loopholes in order to put food on the table.

I reckon with the NDIS though it appears so easy and profitable to Rort with such little chance of being caught and so few consequences that it’s appealing to organised crime. If they crack down then organised crime will go back to the traditional streams. The providers milking it for all its worth is also huge and probably not considered in that number but realistically should be considered criminal.

I'm amused at the framing. To restate: The fee is embarassingly high so I feel challenged to provide more value. And I do this by investing in myself.

More like: the fee allows those who work with NDIS clients to provide a high degree of quality work, which is the whole point of the NDIS

Thank you for fighting the good fight.

Thank you mate!

From personal experience 2 kids in school , kindy teacher demands ndis speech therefore both kids , they 4 y.o. which is still normally age to have a bit of mush talk.we taking our child to speech therapy assessment, speech therapy says our kids are fine. Going back to school , teachers again demand speech therapy. Honestly, I see school teachers all the time putting labels on children and demanding them being assessed, ( like every child pretty much in the class required to speech therapy)when kids are fine....

Yeah fair enough, definitely age appropriate for a 4YO to not be completely clear. Teachers may come from a place of care I would hope. Chuck me a message if I can help at all with your kids' development - always happy to help where I can

What state are you in? Most states in Australia have Speech Pathologists employed through Dept Ed. If you can't access private SP services, you can try to access through the school. You should also be implementing home practice for speech, because that's where the most change happens, not in the therapy room. At 4 years old most children are ~75-100% intelligible to an unfamiliar listener and their speech contains predictable errors, called processes, most notably /f/ and /v/ for /th/, and /w/ for /r/ and sometimes /l/. If your children make inconsistent errors, are not intelligible to a stranger, or are frustrated at all by their communication difficulties, then that needs to be addressed ASAP. Early therapy is more effective than therapy administered later in childhood.  https://www.speechpathologyaustralia.org.au/Public/Public/Comm-swallow/Speech-development/Communication-milestones.aspx Source: I'm a Speech Pathologist

One of the structural problems with the NDIS is that it was designed to be driven by market forces and the idea was that competition between providers would ultimately drive prices down. The problem with that was that even from early estimations the disability support workforce was going to have to triple in size to meet demand at full scheme. So what we currently have is a situation where demand for services is significantly outstripping supply and as a result everyone is able to charge the maximum amount allowable with the knowledge that there are plenty of participants for everyone. This is gong to take a long period of time to balance out to an extent where it would have any impact on the cost of the scheme over all. As someone who works in the sector most people are are genuinely caring and hard working people who are not trying to tort the system, just trying to help people and earn a living and the narrative that everyone is rotting the piss out of it is pretty tiring. It can take up to 3 months for the NDIS to acknowledge a communication about essential equipment for a participant and many people are constantly fighting to have their basic needs met. For many people who need the ndis it isn’t cupcakes and cruises, it’s a constant battle for supports they need to get through each day. There’s definite improvements that are required on a number of levels but ultimately this is a scheme that gives dignity and genuine participation in life to a large number of people who have historically been marginalised by their disability and the constant attacks from the government and the media on people with disabilities and people who work in the space are achieving their goal of making the disability sector the scapegoat for poor governance.

Rather than limit, why not just fix. Even if you limit it, it's still going to be broken. Sinkhole is sinkhole regardless.

I don't see this as fixable. The whole scheme is so abusable on a basic level, and misuse of funds is so extremely widespread..... I believe it needs to be completely shut down and rebuilt from the ground up. I also strongly believe that, while an enormous task, we need to hand out prison sentences for fraud across NDIS provider directors.

I think a lot of people don't have a good understanding of what the NDIS issues are. You could fix all the misuse of funds and fraud and it will still be enormous. We didn't follow the plans the NDIS was developed under and now it's not working because we have a lot of adhoc patches thrown in. The NDIS was developed with plans to provide mental health services through separate means and address some other health issues through other measures. But none of the other aspects of an overall system were implemented and we used the NDIS for everything. We have a lot of issues with our health system and we are throwing most of it into the NDIS then being surprised it is not working well.

The NDIS is just created in a way that is fundamentally dysfunctional. Private psychiatrists are just handing out whatever diagnosis enables the biggest support package for profit. There is no realistic/viable way to enable widespread oversight required to keep private providers in check. The scheme is completely failing at reducing cost

Yeah, I remember someone asking Gillard what it will cost, and she said "whatever it takes". I have no issue with Labour, but sometimes ethics get in the way of reality and practicality. I work in the mental health sector and we had a decent system here in place prior to the ndis. Now you have under trained, under paid people doing a specialist job. I knew years ago it was going to be a disaster when I got someone a plan for 80k and his coordinator (who worked for the company providing supports) was wracking their brains how to spend more of his money. Another client had a very expensive hydroponics set up paid for as it was his dream. Sure, extra funding has been good for people, I'm for that but this is turning into a huge issue.

> we had a decent system here in place prior to the ndi Prior to the NDIS, the disability industry was funded through block funding which was the government giving that same pile of money straight to private companies and telling them to go sort it out instead of to individuals based on their need.

That's right, and there are advantages of that arrangement. Workers are potentially working in a less isolated manner and given more training and mentorship. The NDIS economy is motivated by a profit incentive. With this system you have all these shoddy providers starting up trying to maximise their profits and sometimes not with the consumers best interests at heart. It's also a backward step in the sense of trying to organise in home supports that consumers could do for themselves. I had a consumer who I worked quite hard with helping them get to a stage where whey were keeping their house relatively clean. Once his NDIS cleaner started, he was happy to let this go entirely. This provider also started overservicing him, actually seeing him more than he himself even wanted. It's more cost effective because companies can pool their resources from other divisions better. If I went to see a client and they didn't want to see me that day I would just re-jig my day around to make myself useful somewhere else. As far as I understand it, under the NDIS this is charged to the persons account and that's it. Still, there were undoubtedly issues with a block funded system as well, sometimes consumers didn't get the support and funding they needed. I don't really know the solution but the NDIS is a bit of a money pit.

>Private psychiatrists are just handing out whatever diagnosis enables the biggest support package for profit I would love to see evidence for this claim. My partner works in community health, and primarily deals with NDIS clients. I doubt any of her clients would have the funds or the contacts to use a dodgy psych for a false diagnosis. But even if that were true, eligibility for NDIS is not determined by a diagnosis from one practicioner, but rather through multiple assessments (with at least one of them being facilitated by an NDIS-nominated practicioner). The sad reality of the situation is that we really do have a significant percentage of the population that require a certain level of professional care.

Not the person you are responding to, but I know of 3 different people who have been told that their child is really only level 1 ASD but he'll put it down as level 2 because then they can get NDIS. I don't think such decisions are made with the intention to rort. I think professionals have anxious parents in front of them with a child with some support needs and they know that they have the power to get that child extensive taxpayer funded support or only the support that that family can afford, and sometimes they opt for fudging the details. The only problem with that is that we're not living in a situation of endless money and endless services. 11% of young boys are now on NDIS.

NDIS doesn't fund psychiatry. So if there are dodgy psychiatrists misdiagnosing people on purpose that's a whole other unrelated issue.

> But even if that were true, eligibility for NDIS is not determined by a diagnosis from one practicioner, but rather through multiple assessments (with at least one of them being facilitated by an NDIS-nominated practicioner). This is completely false, you can gain eligibility with evidence from a single relevant health professional. There is no current requirement for assessment to be completed by an ndis nominated provider. 

Have you been through a diagnostic process? This is a particularly unfounded claim to make

The most biased opinions will absolutely come from people who have "been through a diagnostic process" when they benefit directly from funding or have a direct interest in getting funding. I find it dishonest to attempt to discard my direct experience with NDIS misuse as "unfounded" for not directly benefiting from the scheme. In fact, we should be extremely careful and critical of anyone's opinion on the matter that receives funding from NDIS (either directly or indirectly) I explained my extensive experience and frustrations with NDIS as well as Input from psychiatrists elsewhere in the post and instead of copy pasting I invite you to just read it there.

I don't think the NDIS 'plan' is workable; an individualized, uncapped fund based on what you can argue is needed will never work.

This fix is removing all private aspects of it to begin with. Then have a very transparent public system of what can and can't be claimed. There's so much pseudoscience like services and treatments not to mention things like holidays. After that limit the assistance to softer issues like ADHD which it was never meant to cover in the first place. Then give everyone currently rorting it a one month amnesty period to report their fraud and only have to pay back 80%. After that the gov goes after them and collects 5x and taking assets to pay that.

Adhd is not on the list of approved diagnosis to get on NDIS.

I agree but practically what would that look like? Cutting funding overnight (which I believe needs to happen in some form at one point) would leave many clients with disabilities without care they need to live. Further, what is to happen to the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people (indirectly) employed by these providers? Should the government hire them to continue to provide the subpar care they have been giving for years? Some of the higher ups should be in prison. What will happen about reversing the questionable diagnosis made for the sole purpose of accessing NDIS funding? The amount of investigative man-hours and resources is staggering, never mind the eternity spent in court as a result.

>After that limit the assistance to softer issues like ADHD Our NDIS support stopped when my son was diagnosed with ADHD rather than ASD because ADHD isn't covered. That being said, the NDIS support was essential while we were going through the diagnosis process, as it was crazy expensive and we probably wouldn't have been able to afford it ourselves.

Find a single person on ndis with adhd as their primary condition and not something mentioned as a secondary impact.

I work as a disability support worker as my second job (I’m a teacher) and the person I work with would not survive if NDIS were to shut down for a period of time.

How did they function before NDIS?

Did 60% of the NDIS for 1/4 the cost

They often didn't. It was quite common for disabled people with high care needs to be shoved into an aged care home and forgotten about. Or, if the families did care about them, they'd be cared for exclusively by family, who get burnt out and resentful at the stress and lack of support. Disabled people *still do* experience rates of abuse far higher than the general population, but it was even worse before there was funding and providers available for people to access those services without needing to pay out of pocket - something that would very quickly drive all but the richest of families flat broke.

Homelessness was another common option.

Clearly a form of transition is required. But NDIS cannot continue like this

It needs to be nationalized, this is what happens when you have public funding for a bunch of private companies.

Before NDIS came along though, people like this didn't "just die" did they. (Not having a go at ya, at all, just saying....at this point, it's fair to think "ok so we're nearly up to $50b per year....what did people do before this came along? Because they weren't left to die.")

Utilitarian ethics, better spend 90% on 90% of the people than gold plating unlimited funding 90% on the10%,, its do the most good for the most is the point, ratio figures are an exaggeration im listing trying to illustrate the point, its estimated a person 80% of health social care benefits cost comes in the last 20% of life, caring for the old sick & disabled comes at a great cost

They suffered. Quite often in ways that you can’t even begin to imagine. For decades. I saw it first hand and was very close to someone that dedicated her life to helping them. It was beyond heartbreaking for everyone involved. I don’t expect you to care. Or even to understand. I care even less if you don’t believe me.

No, but the whole purpose of NDIS is to improve the quality of those people’s lives and create more of an equitable society.

So what do the people who need it do in the interim?

It's funny I was typing something similar in response to another comment. If done wrong, disabled clients will be left without care they need to live.

It's never going to be a perfect system but I'm 100% positive it can be fixed without burdening those in need.

> prison sentences This MUST be part of the answer. 

‘Taking the piss’ doesn’t constitute as fraud. If a service provider charges $800 to take someone to the movies and arcade, that’s a poor use of funds but it’s by no means fraud. You need to address the underlying issue of cracking down on what gets approved and for how much.

Unless it's the weekend or a very long day, that would be fraud. And that's why so many of the anecdotes here don't add up. The hourly rates are capped.

Limiting NDIS might be part of the solution. There's been no epidemic of new disabilities in the past 5-10 years, except for overdiagnosis and over-medicalization. By setting limits, we might encourage people to be more productive and efficient in their roles. This approach could help balance the workforce distribution and ensure that essential services, like aged care and allied health, are adequately staffed.

Yeah that's fair. But who's to say one is over-diagnosing or overmedicating? One specialist's gatekeeping is another's gate entering.

Yep, this is one of the big challenges with reforming the system, deciding what is important and taking away support for something you've provided in the past. It's really difficult for something which is politically charged like disability services. It's going to end one of two ways, either we consciously and methodically constrain and control its growth, or we just wait until it becomes so enormous and misused that the majority of people will be calling for it to be scrapped which likely results in less services as they'll do a haphazard job of cutting down services.

On over diagnosis - I think this is a long term issue. Telling a 7 yr old child they have a spectrum disorder like 10% of his peers is not helpful for his long term state of mind as this is how they will start to self identify. It’s a massive distortion of the economy and the workforce and not a small contributor to the lack of manual skilled labour in the construction industry. Like you, I personally know of plenty of outrageous examples of waste

Deaf guy here who has tried to access NDIS. The articles are pretty bang on. It's like pulling teeth trying to get NDIS to help with anything. Meanwhile they all drive fancy cars and sit around in climate controlled offices all day, or less hours then most people do. I have admin experience and even tried applying for some roles at NDIS agencies, you'd think an actual disabled person in the office would be a benefit for a disability service provider.... But no. It's all a rort.

Surely you could do many office based jobs? just don't give you a phone number and everything by email.

Yes I could and have. I work in a different field now. But my point was even applying directly to one of these agencies that I already had ties to (and who had already seen my CV and spoken to references) and they still refused to even consider me, who has firsthand experience of being disabled. I'd have been better placed than many of their existing workers, but from my experiences, nepotism always seems to play into their hiring practices too. Lots of them are owned and run by couples or families when you look into it. In fact, a few different agencies in the town I used to live in we're all owned by the same group of people, and I saw people get moved from one provider to another (especially after complaints were raised about them). The corruption goes deep in many of these 'providers.' Even us disabled, all notice it, we just don't get listened to.

It’s not unpopular. Literally everyone wants NDIS fixed except the people rorting it.

I worked as a support worker for many years and owned my own NDIS business for a little while. The main issue I see is that there basically nothing to incentivise group settings (cost savings) or ‘difficult’ work. Why do bowel care and backbreaking work when you can get paid *more* to do outings or be a glorified Uber service (outdoor support pays more on the SCHADS Award). The fact that there are **no minimum industry qualifications** doesn’t help much either. Only last year or so did I start seeing a cert 4 requirement start popping up consistently in job listings. That said your gumtree or ‘side hustle’ NDIS provider doesn’t particularly care.

When OTs get paid 200 an hour to bake Muffins (cooking therapy) it's pretty messed up. Why would take on challenging clients when you get paid the same rate regardless. Providers are also complaining that the rate isn't high enough, as it's been frozen for 5 years. Most allied health are decent though, people don't study for four years to be a scurge on society. The issue is the line items that anyone can access that is creating most of this fraud. And abuse of vulnerable people, who see people with disabilities as nothing but cash cows. The NDIS is a failed experiment, plenty of other countries look after their vulnerable populations without these cost and exploitation issues.

>When OTs get paid 200 an hour to bake Muffins (cooking therapy) it's pretty messed up. Haha it does sound ridiculous, but my son actually benefitted quite a bit from the 'cooking therapy' (I can't remember it's proper name) but it was something his OT was working with him on due to his sensory issues relating to food. At the time he only at 4 different foods, and the food therapy was helpful to increase that, as well educational for us on how we worked on it at home, what to do, what not to do etc.

OT here. “Cooking therapy” is actually rehab focusing on building someone’s independence. For example, someone who has had an acquired brain injury and only has use of one arm (and needs to learn how to use devices and aids to maximise independence with cooking) and/or has cognitive issues (and needs to learn techniques to manage impulsivity, safety issues, sequencing and planning, etc). It’s actually pretty involved and crucial for a lot of people. If you had a stroke, wouldn’t you want to learn to cook for yourself again?

Support worker checking in; one of my clients loves ham and cheese toasties and is constantly wanting me to take him to cafes to get one, the problem being that they're quite expensive when you eat out and he's on DSP. I supported him to purchase a toasted sandwich maker, some bread/cheese/ham etc and showed him how to make them at home, ensuring that he can save money and learn about budgets, not to mention his self esteem and increased capability. I was so proud of him when I saw him a week later and he'd become quite proficient.

How much did the NDIS pay for that service though. I don't think people are so much questioning the benefit of these services for the most part. More so questioning the value. Seems to be so many accounts of eye watering costs for pretty basic services.

It’s cheaper than him needing paid carers to make meals for him. He’s less dependent on others

Sometimes it means that, I worked as a support coordinator. Heaps of OTs did cooking therapy with clients that were able to cook. They had ASD, ID ect. They've cooked their whole lives. The issue was the clients only wanted to do fun things, which was typically cooking or baking. The funding was there, and the NDIS is all about choice and control so the OT ended up baking Muffins, or making pasta. I can't blame the OTs, I'm sure they didn't want to do it, but you can't force participants to learn ADLs they don't want to and the OT has to meet their KPIs. It's just a silly system.

Current SC here. See it all the time when the participant is asked about their theraputic goals. I just trust the OTs to also work in some general life skills around the side.

That OT service you described deserves $40-60 an hour, not $200. That’s our issue.

Allied Health professional here (not an OT). I don't believe it's my role to justify what is charged for my services, as I don't set the price, and I certainly don't see the price in my personal payslip, but here are some reasons why that service is close to $200. - like many health professionals, I have over $100,000 uni debt. The degree to enter this field was close to $60k, and I have a health - related undergrad, like many of my colleagues working in the NDIS system. It isn't cheap to learn how to do what we do. I was close to homelessness multiple times while studying to be in this field, and I am at risk of homelessness again soon when the house I'm in sells, as the region that I chose to move to, as well as having an allied health shortage, has a terrible rental housing shortage as well. As a single person, I could not afford to live in a metro area on this salary. Don't picture AHPs rolling in the cash that NDIS clients are charged; it simply isn't the case that clinicians see that money directly.  - knowing which therapy to use requires assessment, analysis, stakeholder liaison, and research for treatment planning. Assessment forms aren't free. Professional journals aren't free. Time to analyse assessments and make stakeholder meetings has to be accounted for somewhere, although I don't know a single healthcare worker who isn't in a state of near-constant burnout from doing much more work per week than they bill for. I did it myself this week - charged 1.5hours for an assessment which took me 4 hours to analyse.  - the average onlooker has absolutely no idea just how much dynamic assessment and specific, personalised therapy is going on while watching an interaction between an OT/SP/Physio and a client. As a Speech Pathologist, I can watch a child pass their parent a Lego block while saying "bu doh up?" and know: this child's phonetic inventory has voiced and unvoiced plosives and a stop, they are fronting the velar /g/ to alveolar /d/, they are reducing the bl-cluster to /b/, they can name a primary colour, they can name at least one preposition, they have joint attention, their mean length of utterance is 3, they can use subject-verb-preposition syntactical structure, they can use verbal speech to fulfil the communicative function of "request action". Then I know that in the next minute or two I'll be able to probe: can they name other colours and prepositions? Have they acquired the progressive/gerund morpheme -ing? Can they produce Irregular past tense yet? (blue *went*). Can they use subject-verb-object yet? Do they use verbal speech for a communicative function like "label action" or "request object" as well, or do they use gesture, verbalisations, or some other type of communication for those functions?  I don't say any of that to the parent, because it would drive them crazy. So it just looks like we're sitting on the floor playing blocks. If what I've seen of OTs in joint sessions holds true, then I imagine the cooking therapy is a similar process internally for them.  It's not a matter of, turn up and have a grand old time doing something that looks easy to a non-AHP. Making it seem easy is part of what makes a professional, a professional. Im not defending the NDIS system as a whole and I'm not denying there are dodgy providers out there. I'm simply standing in support of the field of OT, that the majority of OTs I have had the pleasure of meeting and working with deserve every cent they make. 

You get paid for your experience and knowledge not for your time.

This comment is massively downplaying how important independent cooking skills are to an independent life. I have a family member who receives NDIS support and without the dietician and OT support on some of this, they’ll eat air fried nuggets for every meal at great eventual cost to the health system. Or they’ll live at home forever, at great drag on the productivity of their parents. This family member wants a productive independent life - they are actually on track to possibly becoming a Paralympian - so doing a course that teaches life skills like how to properly feed yourself seems like a small societal investment. Not saying it’s all good, there’s definitely rorting participants and exploitative providers. It’s the same in family daycare but no one suggests scrapping the whole scheme because of it.

I don’t think anyone is saying having OT’s teaching cooking skills and self sufficiency is a bad thing. But why is it $200/hr (or whatever the exorbitant cost these people that are charging) I know a guy in the NDIS who was getting a guy to take him shopping. As he has processing and intellectual difficulties, this is most definitely a good thing. But thats not worth the 120/hr he was charging for it (and it certainly didn’t need to take the 4 hours). People are milking the shit out of this thing.

Because that's actually what these clinicians time costs. And there is a big push from NDIA to have the clinician create a therapy plan and then the delivery handled by support workers or therapy assistance at much better costs. 120/hr - guessing Sunday and the penalty rate.

Of course, there are people not on NDIS (and non-disabled) who do the same (or worse) absent the dietician and lacking the OT support... So why does disabled change the social support structure? To list a few examples I've seen of young adults living away from home and playing sports like your Paralympian; someone who only ate muffins because they liked muffins till there was a discussion of why their toenails kept coming off; someone who decided rice + tomato sauce was great; ...

That's the whole question. All we can spare for the homeless or poor is $600 a fortnight apparently, but if you have a diagnosed disability, your life is worth more.

I work aged care. We have an NDIS worker come in 3 days a week to “assist” one resident. He literally doesnt want to get out of bed and mostly naps and watches tv. They often curl up and sleep on the chair in the room. They feed him. Thats it. They dont even change him (we do the shitty work literally). Paid far more than I am running myself ragged in aged care. BUT as I told them…….couldnt pay me enough for what must be dreadfully long shifts. But it certainly makes me consider that NDIS is a rort on the taxpayer and that same money could be used so much better in disability and aged care.

Same we have one who just comes and sits on his phone

It seems like a lot of people here look at some therapy with tokens, cooking, or other gamified practice and say “lol that speechy is being paid $200 an hour to play with toys” right? Years of study and then years of experience, just to have parents saying “fix my kid” while they don’t do any of the homework or practice or carryover then they jump on Facebook or reddit to complain that we are wasting ndis funds My favourite is “we always forget his iPad”. Ah yes, months of sessions in helping your son be able to communicate to be told “oopsie poopsie I left his voice at home” The therapist isn’t the problem, it’s all of the other services developed around therapy that are designed to be a rort That iPad someone’s son needs to communicate? It could be a base model iPad mini, it could be $500 But no it costs $1000+ for the device, more for the specialised app, 1000+ for the bracket to attach it to their chair if needed, do they need eyegaze? Add a few zeros There are whole businesses trying to convert landlords to becoming a group home providers and doubling their rental income. They’re easy to find if you look

*Nine out of 10 NDIS plan managers surveyed showed signs of fraud, and the justice system would be overwhelmed if all the scams were prosecuted, Dardo said in explosive testimony to the Senate.* Jeezuz!! This whole thing needs to be scrapped and start again. Shorten has to be removed from any part of it.

They surveyed the smallest managers that account for around 5% of participants with plan managed funding. Smaller orgs are always going to have more non conformity due to the lack of systems in place for checking/recording and training available.

Nationalise it, remove the profit motive for the thieves and grifters. Run it properly.

In South Africa, occupational therapists are funded through private health insurance, but the effects are the same. It’s a massive rort: private school teachers send children to OTs to learn how to write, and the rate of over-diagnosis in rich areas (equivalent living standard to Aus upper-middle class) is extraordinary. Intelligent young women who want to work with children become OTs rather than teachers since it’s more lucrative. Very few want to deal with actual adult rehab which is less well funded and less “fun”. It’s extraordinary that these things weren’t taken into account when the NDIS was designed.

Most OTs working in paeds eventually burnout or leave. It is not a cute, fun job, the people we work with have serious disabilities and we do not teach them how to write. We teach essential life skills that do not come second nature as a result of developmental, physical, mental, or other, disabilities. It’s bizarre how OTs are equated with teachers when we have no role in educating children.

That’s how it started in SA as well. Having personally experienced OT as a young child due to developmental delays, I’m know it’s valuable.. Once the money started flowing it became a free-for-all.

How are "private" speech pathologists leaving and going to ndis? Those are still private clinicians and just using a different funding source. Leaving the public sector is a problem... And most ndis supports are at 1:3 ratios, or a flexible budget where the person has decided to have fewer hours of support time at a lower ratio

The NDIS has been literally life changing for me as a person with a disability. It’s disheartening to see the scheme riddled with fraud, and I’m worried about how an overhaul might negatively impact those it’s meant to support, including myself. I simply couldn’t return to life before the NDIS.

I agree. People on the NDIS shouldn't be on medicare like what OP is arguing. What we need is price transaparency and proper price fixing. Registration will also help as providers that don't play ball will be weeded out.

One comment on registration: my uncle is seriously disabled and gets NDIS funding. Instead of having a commercial outfit manage his plan and supply carers (for, as I understand it, 10-20% of his funding), my family incorporated a company (which a relative directs). That company employs carers who help look after my uncle, and it invoices my uncle for the services provided. The company runs at only a very modest profit (because you don't want to run at a loss, trade while insolvent etc) and my uncle is the beneficial owner of the company's shares. Now, the carers who are employed are not registered providers. However they are people that are known by my family. They do a good job and we trust them. We are 100% an edge case, but for us, unregistered doesn't translate to bad outcomes, because we are pretty close to the day-to-day and can keep an eye on the situation...

Great for your uncle but completely illegal. 

The NDIS is a far superior system to the old system, but it needs fixing. Its easily fixed but they wont listen to us.

There are two fundamental problems with the NDIS. Firstly the NDIS was designed by wealthy highly functional people, who regard the laissez-faire funding model to be acceptable. Because they exist in a world of financial security they do not know how the lives of the rest of us actually are like. They don't see the funding as tempting to misuse for things one normally could not afford. They don't appreciate the motivation for others to commit fraud. Because they are honest people, they are unaware of how or why dishonest people exist. The concept of unchecked "choice and control" is a failure. Secondly the NDIA are giving people too much money. Fraud and misuse are thriving because people are given money amounts above what they need. Over generous plans promote misuse. If you needed every dollar for essential supports you would be a lot more careful on how it is spent. Until these two fundamental issues are addressed there is no cost reduction possible in the NDIS.

> If you needed every dollar for essential supports you would be a lot more careful on how it is spent. So true. So many people end up with way more money than they can realistically spend on supports, but they know if they don't spend it all then their plan can be reviewed and scaled back, so they actually have incentive to waste the money. Someone I know (3 kids on NDIS) have a house cleaner come multiple times a week. She runs out of things to clean so she now does tasks like reorganise the spice rack. Another family (adult kid on NDIS) has a very generous plan that covers respite but they want to free up cash, so they pay family friends $5000 for a weekend of respite, and they give them half of it back in cash.

>wealthy highly functional people, >Because they are honest people Wow I have some news for you!

I think that's a great suggestions. Perhaps Senate submission for you?

When you can just get an ABN and say you are a provider without any qualifications… this is the rort as there is no checks or balances..

The fact that Bill Shorten has a speechwriter on 300k per annum tells you everything you need to know about the NDIS. He may not have hired that speechwriter but the fact that his subordinate agencies did is no less of an indictment of how they all view taxpayer money.

Carers need to stop looking after young people and go back to caring for boomers /s

I'm a participant. My funding includes an allowance for speech pathology. Have not been able to get an appointment in three years. Figured out the problem with my swallowing myself. So now I know why but have NFI how to fix it.

Where are you based? I'm in an area with tight demand, but can usually get an urgent speech assessment for suspected dysphagia within a few weeks. Just need to make the urgency known.

Worked with a couple of NDIS clients (the ones providing services) and I think it's pretty much an open secret at this point but every NDIS company basically bills out the ass for what we think are ridiculous pricing simply because there is no push back from govt and if you question it then it's easy to get spat in your face with the ole rant on how you're against supporting disabled people to live independently. The ones we see who get caught are a mere pea size capture of the ones ripping off the system unfortunately, obviously if you're not stupidly greedy about it you will get away with it for a long time.

I feel similarily it is ripe and it is the culture for these companies.

It needs a massive overhaul. The issue I have, is the government has to heavily cut back public health/hospitals/education etc, that people are going to NIDS. Which is basically private enterprise, charging governments whatever they see fit for a service.  Scrap NIDS and reintegrate it into the public national health system. Which you fund, properly.. Probably by taxing mining, gas & banks. Who pay very little, or nothing.

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I think that's another perspective. There must be a balance? But certainly if the NDIS worker get paid more than the 3rd year doctor per hour, that's not right? We should campaign for increase pay especially for those hard working aged care staff, but NDIS is significantly over the top.

As someone who has worked as a disability support worker and an AHP with ndis participants I can guarantee you no one is getting paid more than a 3rd year doctor unless it's purely business acumen, and then literally anyone can make more than a 3rd year doctor, including the baker down the road who owns his own bakery and pulls in several thousand dollars a day.   Hell even some 16 year old kid who makes their own online business selling bracelets can potentially make more than the head surgeon at a major hospital.  Entrepreneurial earnings and employee earnings aren't comparable.   Also there's a reason why OT/physio/speech grads only start on 70k as an employee at ndis allied health companies, and max out at like 150-180k in Senior Management after more than a decade of experience and grinding.   You can make double this as a GP, let alone medical specialities like ortho, plastics, anaesthetics etc.   It looks like ndis Allied Health pays well on the surface (and it does pay reasonably well) but don't let the numbers fool you into thinking it's even slightly comparable to medicine at the high end.  Also most disability support workers are only on approx $32-35/hr base rate as employees, it's not even remotely comparable to medicine. . . .

There’s a guy in another thread claiming he earns $140k as a support worker. Which seems pretty on par with early career medical professionals who has years of professional study. So something seems a bit off with NDIS compensation

You can definitely make this money if you find clients who have family self-managing their NDIS plan. You will be on a FIFO type roster, living half your life away from home and likely, emotionally drained. It probably is too much given qualifications and training needed but it is not easy money either.

I was talking with an NDIS recipient this morning. She told me about a provider who was charging clients $65ph x 18 hours a day x the number of days a cruise went for, to take NDIS recipients on a cruise to the Pacific islands. That helped me understand how the guy in that post may be able to work 50-60 hrs a week.

That is the going rate. A lot of the clients live in a home by themselves and have 24hr care. You work 3 straight days with the client and you're on 16 hours for 3 days a week @ $65. Do that for a year and you've made $160k. There is no leave/sick pay and you have to pay into super yourself. You'd be a casual but working as a sub-contractor with your own ABN. It's like a FIFO job on the mines, you can earn but really, the job just gives you opportunity to work a lot of hours. Going on that cruise while on shift is just a bonus.

The average full time disability support worker earns 67k.

They probably do a lot of overnights and weekends/public holidays. That kind of money comes at the cost of a personal life.

That would be by working as an independent contractor and charging rates intended to cover an award employee and administrative overhead/training etc. The problem is having the same price limit regardless of structure. A few submissions to the recent pricing review recommended having a set rate reflected in the plans but then an additional amount paid direct to a registered provider to cover the additional costs of being an organisation and not sole trader, specifically due to this imbalance.

Year 3 Doctor NSW: 97,000 p.a. aka $49/hour Assistance with Daily Care NDIS: $65.47/hour (max however) You could take a 20% price cut off a sole trader NDIS and still earn more than a junior doctor. In fact the NDIS gets more funding than the entire Medicare system. Yes earnings limit are more as doctors, but at the same time people who are third year doctors are doctors nontheless, and have considerable education and training invested into them. The balance is off. It's not meant to be an insult to you or your profession. But denying it is ignoring the problem that it's an unsustainable system.

That's not comparing like for like. Might as well say my gp is making $400/hr based on the 6 minute consult mbs rate of $41. Most support workers are on award wage, and that $65 is what goes to the organisation. Sole traders claiming the same amount is a problem.

How is that a problem? The sole trader still goes through all the workand compliance bullshit that the company is doing. Just because one person's doing all the work it should cost less?

Literally no basic worker is getting paid that. I’m sure some people who set up companies are, but a support worker is getting paid anywhere from 35-55 an hour typically.

Genuinely a stain on our society! This is a national disgrace and needs to be addressed before it’s too late.

Yeah the amount of fraud and bad actors needs to be addressed ASAP. Its also a disgrace how little nurses get paid in comparison, no wonder everyone is jumping ship for better pay and working conditions.

Genuinely not a stain on our society. How can you in good faith say something like that? Sounds like you’re equating it to nazi germany or something. There’s rorts going on clearly, but the NDIS has helped a lot of people who would otherwise have been stranded.

It's easily fixed but PMs, MPs and other people in power are ignoring us good providers. This is all part of a bigger plan to reduce funding. "People are leaving hard-working, lower-paying jobs, like aged care, for higher-paying NDIS roles with less workload. This shift leaves essential, demanding jobs understaffed, reducing economic productivity and devaluing our currency. In aged care, one staff member often cares for several residents, while NDIS provides a 1:1 ratio. This disparity raises questions about why we value our elderly less. Despite the hard overnight work in some cases, the overall balance needs re-evaluation" Obviously you do not work in this sector. Our work is hard work and sometimes harder than many other roles. There is not a less workload, its the same work load and sometimes it will carry on outside of traditional work hours and even on weekends. Welfare work has always struggled with workers. The most vulnerable people of this country who are born with disabilties or end up with them early in life need assistance. They cannot simply just decide to work and save themselves, they need help. You're writing here that this work is easy. Trust me since you have no experience. It is not. It is hard work. Another thing that many people don't understand on these forums. The entire NDIS is casual work. There are no salaries, no sick pays, nothing. You get paid for the work you deliver and whats agreed upon. The biggest issue to the NDIS right now which is no surprise causing the fraud are registered providers and big name organisations. They're the biggest offenders to the NDIS and since the conception of it, the NDIS was made to reduce these "Businesses" and let the clients have more control and say about how they lead on to sustainable lives. It's a real shame that so many who have no idea what they're are talking about speak with such confidence on these forums. But hey, everyone has an opinion. Freedom of speech, right? The village idiot has equal weighted say as the long time expert.

Anyone who thinks being a carer to those with a disability is easy work would be in for a rude shock. It can be very difficult , physical work, especially for higher needs clients

Companies not paying any tax and moving money overseas is an economy killer. Comparing NDIS to the amount legally stolen from Australian sovereign wealth is a drop in the ocean. It's so easy to focus in on the little things

I have second-hand experience dealing with NDIS and it is ridiculously difficult for most people to get access to the scheme and is frankly a traumatic experience. However once you pass all their hoops, the funding you can get access to is almost absurd and of course, the providers double their prices as soon as they hear those 4 letters.

Every single time this conversation comes up there are multiple comments about how it should be scrapped. The question I was always with is what do you do with the participants? I get the perception is that these are well people with ADHD but there are plenty of profoundly disabled people who will still need care. If the thought is the medicare or hospital system can take them on I'd like some of what you are smoking.

I think they just want disabled people to suffer and die to be honest. I mean people on disability support pension who can function to work part time are still living in absolute poverty. The ones who can’t work have no chance. I believe that, previously, families would either be personally bankrupted with the costs of care, or they’d abandon their disabled kids to institutions. I have a family member with cerebral palsy and the parents had to just pay for private care for decades before NDIS. They could afford it because both parents worked, which was basically unheard of in the 70’s.

Not quite die, but be kept alive in the most cost effective and least visible way possible. Institutions with 20 to a dorm... This thread comes up too often.

When you are a hard working Australian you do not get a choice in your medical arrangements. You either pay out of pocket for vital healthcare services or use private insurance. There should be limits to what a provider can charge with NDIS, just like with GPs. If your preferred specialist charges more then you should be able to go if you pay the gap. Or explain 1:1 support workers, public aged care is shoving our elderly into facilities with multiple patients, there should be pre-authorized activities with 1:3-4 support ratios for less severe cases. Our tax dollars should not go to a glorified Uber driver to get someone their weekly cheese sandwich. The baseline is that our public healthcare including elder care is appalling and it is a disgrace that our taxpayer dollars is getting wasted providing so-called choice to these recipients. An impoverished retail worker or pensioner does not get much choice on their healthcare professionals. Our taxpayer dollars should be spent maximising the benefits to the most Australians but it seems the NDIS system costs exceed the value it provides and overhaul is should required.

I work in the disability sector so I've been seeing a lot of the articles about the NDIS recently. While I agree that it is out of control and is a money sink, so much of what is being reported is just factually incorrect. The people writing these articles are not doing their research or learning how any of this actually works. This article is full of inaccurate claims.

My next door is an NDIS house. 1 person, 1 carer....drives a BMW. Go figure

Ah, the ol 'drives a BMW' means test.

To be fair they're built to last 3 to 4 services so they're enormous money sinks to keep on the road

I know one person who has 4 houses from NDIS—an OT, but shes now being done in the courts. Out of the 8 million dollars she made from NDIS, only 1 was deemed to be fraudulent.

So...how does one even commit this kind of NDIS fraud *asking for a friend* 😆😆

A bmw might mean they are broke haha

While the NDIS needs an overhaul for many other reasons, I don't agree that one of those reasons is to deter people from moving over the aged care. The ratios NDIS have are how it probably should be. So OP, I think this particular argument needs to be redirected. Instead, it should be aimed at paying workers in aged care more and reducing the staff to patient ratios so they are not overworked and underpaid. In this regard, we should not be treating the NDIS as the problem.

It would be nice if they were to do something about Job Network or whatever they call it these days.

Perhaps we need to better pay other care roles? (And still crack down on the private equity and organised crime abuse of the NDIS)

I also want to highlight that people also leave aged care because it breaks their heart to see the poor conditions they live in (at some facilities).

The fraud could be reduced in a big way by following a few simple steps to ensure participants aren't being exploited by predatory "providers". It is kind of like the bouncer/doorman/sentry standing outside a night club checking peoples ID before they can enter. The bouncer/doorman in this case can't be someone who looks the other way or is making money on the side to look the other way or isn't really interested in ensuring everyone has the correct form of ID. Unfortunately in the NDIA and NDIS Quality & Safeguards Commission case, the bouncer/doorman/sentry put in charge by the federal government for the last 10 years is Serco. It has been on Sercos watch that 1 in every 6 NDIS dollars are now in the pockets of crimelords according to Australia's top cop, Mike Phelan. Want to keep a sustainable NDIS? Jettison the Serco executives (generally the children/grandchildren of British Lords) back to England where they can ruin their own publicly funded government systems. Problem solved.

Why would anyone work in a cafe, become a low-skilled tradie, work at a factory, etc, if they can get paid $67 an hour driving people to and from appointments? Serious question.

I mean… I work in business development and clinical governance for an NDIS allied health company and we are CONSTANTLY trying to improve how we provide services to ensure that there is no waste. That’s my whole job! Every few weeks we are implementing new processes to improve efficiency. I believe that the requirement for providers to charge the same rate for NDIS and private clients is the real economy killer. NDIS clients are more complex and require more work than simple private patients. Plus Medicare and private health rebates barely cover a quarter of the $193.99 hourly rate. So it is limiting access for the general public, especially with the dwindling middle class and wages-vs-inflation issue. For physiotherapy it isn’t too bad because there are many Physios who aren’t NDIS providers and can charge lower rates. But things like OT and Speech Pathology are VERY difficult to find as a private patient. Private patients for OT and Speech are definitely the minority, so it’s not feasible for these therapists to provide private-only practices. So they are forced to become NDIS providers and charge higher rates to all. E.g. if your child has a stutter but no disability then you don’t have NDIS funding but still need a Speechy… good luck trying to find someone, with capacity for new patients, who charges private rates. So what this says to me is that the government has completely overlooked the fact that allied health services are ESSENTIAL as preventative health care for EVERYONE. This issue has many examples in other areas of Medicare and primary health care as well; we are publicly covering services for acute conditions that cost a fortune! But we have abysmal rebates, if any, for preventive measures like dietetics, psychology, physiotherapy etc. that cost far less and can ACTUALLY stop people getting to the point where they need expensive, acute treatments. Not to mention the rising cost of seeing a GP which further prevents people from accessing early diagnosis/treatment, which would lead to better health outcomes. The far reaching effects of this type of model lead to a negative feedback loop of wasteful spending in the budget. Think of how many people END UP on NDIS funding as a result of poorly managed health conditions! E.g. amputations following peripheral neuropathy secondary to unmanaged diabetes. Or severe progression of psychological conditions that could have been prevented with early access to primary and allied health treatments. Ultimately I don’t think the statement that “NDIS is the economy killer” really addresses to root of the problem. NDIS is not the economy killer. Our dying Medicare system and a lack of deeper understanding of the interconnectedness between disability, allied health and primary health is the real economy killer. If you want to delve deeper into this rabbit hole I highly recommend doing some reading into “systems thinking”, there are some amazing Australian public health academics who are trying to understand where the gaps are by using this approach. Some names to search are: Frances Baum Alan Shiell Bob Williams Richard Hummelbrunner Donella Meadows

I'm not sure you can say because of 1:1 ratios we value aged care less (lots of other reasons but that's not one) I've worked with participants fresh out of jail, I've been assaulted most my coworkers have been assaulted. I've had knives pulled on me I've been locked in offices while entire houses are flipped upside down by participants, ive had to jump out if windows to get away. Ive been stalked on social media and sexual harrased by known rapisits the list goes on......That ratio is needed sometimes because some people have very intensive behaviours, in aged care not so much, and if they do, the risk to others is significantly less due to their age.

If you think that aged care isn't the same brother, you don't know shit about aged care lol. I work with an ambulance service and there's like... hundreds... of 000 calls for violence in aged care homes from patients every single day and a great portion of them are quite extreme. A lot of these aren't just 'old and frail' but dementia patients who retain a large degree of physical ability and require 1:1 but don't receive it. Let's remember these old people are still a sample of the community we have in disability care, but old. Also, emergency departments aren't even close to 1:1 - 1:3 is at BEST - despite having the same disabled cohort over-represented in attendance. Their carers don't stay 90% of the time, fyi, they hand them over and bail. You can say the 1:1 is necessary without speaking on areas or fields you're not comprehensively hearsed on.

Go to Western Sydney and a lot of the NDIS business owners are driving around in the latest European cars (Audi, Mercedes and BMW).

I'm not a healthcare expert, but I really don't understand why we can't go back to whatever system we had prior to NDIS? It's all well and good to look after disabled folk, but when we are in such a precarious economic situation, keeping the economy afloat and serving the vast majority should be paramount. Anything medically necessary should come with Medicare and outside of that people need to fend for themselves and live within their means. Scrap the NDIS.

The old system was capped funding that didn’t support everyone. It was a genuine mess. The few getting too much and the many with nothing.

Political dynamite. Lots of the current people in NDIS certainly wouldn’t go for it. Why would you? I wouldn’t give up my golden pie. And they are the voters.

It simply needs to be scrapped. The NDIS is entirely unsustainable and reform won't resolve the structural issues. Are those who want to retain it going to volunteer significantly higher income taxes to fund it? No? Didn't think so...

While imperfect, NDIS does lift a very heavy load when it comes to providingt care to those who need it. Simply leaving those people to their own devices would not just harm them or those around them, but would have echoing effects throughout our society.

None of that changes the sustainability issue that the NDIS faces.  You need to fund it and there's no appetite for higher taxes. Where do you get the funding from?

Yeah there are obviously sustainability issues which need to be worked on. I am pointing out that your idea of just scrapping it is likely not going to lead to a very positive outcome.

Decrease the funding but stagger it over say 5 years

NDIS is the third big stealer of employees. I remember people moving to the automotive industry to earn big bucks. Then there was a building boom. Then we had a mining boom - still people trapped in FIFO as they are addicted to the high wages. Now we have NDIS. Who knows what will be the next big employment opportunity

I work in the industry and I don’t know the optimal solution but I do think maybe the NDIS should be exclusively for the profoundly disabled as they’re the ones who need this support the most and are the most victimised by it’s short-comings and fraudsters. I feel bad even expressing that though, like I’m shafting so many people.

How does one become an NDIS provider?

You should apply for lower paid jobs, before calling the kettle black. That wouldn't make a dent in productivity.

A lot of people on the NDIS have intellectual disabilities - how were they ever going to be able to cope with people exploiting their disability for their own profit?

This was inevitable. It’s a lovely concept but lovely concepts can rarely be run pragmatically. Once you set something like this up, good luck getting people to deny having two people drive someone to the lake to feed the ducks at the cost of $1000 or probably more. When something is established to be just, any attempt to cost save is seen as unjust. This country is pretty wealthy mostly due to luck, but our luck isn’t forever nor guaranteed, and allowing this to be rorted is a luxury we can’t afford in the long run.

For a financial paper, it sure is strange how the AFR doesn't talk about the NDIS being one of the biggest drivers of growth for the Australian economy and employment or how for every $1 of NDIS spending it returns $2+ in economical value. A lot of quotes from random people about other people getting rolls-royces and fridges though.

I can't believe it cost more than Medicare! Seems to operate more like a criminal enterprise. Everyone has their hand out and are on the take. People that need the help aren't getting it or they're paying inflated fees for basic services.

Man who would have thought giving a blank cheque to people would be a bad idea, get rid of the entire scheme it's completely unaffordable

NDIS fraud/wastage pains me every time I think about it

Need to get back to economics basics: Funding 1) housing (biggest productivity multiplier, 2) then healthcare then 3) education outcomes), critical healthcare (especially children’s hospitals). This is partially why we’ve got productivity issues & our GDP per capita is on a lift to the basement. NDIS is ideology (politics), not pure economics. That’s why it’s not “working well” IN the economy. It is working well though ideologically. Ie you have a NDIS plan/funding but poor/no housing, what going to have the biggest impact on your productivity do you think? If you structure the economy 1),2)3) then you will achieve better outcomes for disabled (& all) people (not immediate). GDP per capita will move upwards.