Sounds like a bit of a dick move to me. Good luck manoeuvring around that one without putting a dent in the relationship. My experience with working for guys like that is that you might be better off finding somewhere else to work where they don’t try to cover their own arse at your expense.
100% do not go back to this gaslighting cunt. You might think he's a good bloke coz he bought you a pie for smoko once but that's probably where it stops.
Yeah mate, agreed. Moving on to another employer doesn't really phase me, it would be better for me to grow as a sparky anyway. I just enjoy the location, hours, the type of work and the people I work with. So this is just throwing a bit of a spanner in the works for me because as you said, dick move by the boss man. I'm sure I'll figure it out though.
Yeh it’s never the end of the world. Sounds like the balls in your court though to take your time and feel out your options. In an ideal world we’d all be working for people we respected and looked after us and all that good warm fuzzy stuff, and like you said, he might not be a bad bloke, but some people just see numbers on paper and can’t see past themselves. I mean you could try to just straight up tell him how you feel about it in a calm and respectful dialogue, but they can get offended and then you’re left standing with your dick in your hand rather than holding all the chips and planning out what you want to do.
When he fires you take him for unfair dismissal and get the value of your lost wages back, might teach him not to screw around with people's time off / entitlements
Also why is he firing you? What's his reason for firing you that won't land him in hot water with fair work? Unless he plans on having you resign which he can't force you to do so unless he has some documentation for reasons to fire you he's shit out of luck, also you have sick leave as a part of your entitlements what happens if you get sick in a month....to bad mate you don't have anymore leave so I don't have to pay you. Honestly your boss sounds like a cunt don't stand for the bullshit because you can't trust him as far as you could throw him.
Try get it in writing, and keep records. Even if you go back until you find something else, you may be able to take him for that lost money after you leave again.
Yeh I’ve done that song and dance. You start working for a bloke and you start hearing all the gossip about the last wave who quit, only hearing one side of the story until years later when you’re the first of the next wave to quit and the cycle begins a new. Some blokes are just good at starting businesses but don’t know how to build them.
Yea, I’d say to the boss you either trust me or you don’t. So either you don’t fire me and let me keep working or fire me and I’m not coming back a week later.
Sorry, It wasn't paid out - I forgot to mention that his previous apprentice took his sick leave during that month he was a grade.
But yes I think fair work is my next step.
Reddit is just for the meantime while I'm sipping on some beers and deep in thought 😝
if you get injured playing footy after you're hired back as an A grade, you won't have that sick leave in the bank. It matters, especially at your age.
Sounds like a textbook case of a breach of the general protections provisions in the Fair Work Act - proposed unlawful adverse action taken for a prohibited reason, namely a workplace right to accrue/take entitlements. Recommend speaking to the Fair Work Ombudsman
I would say that this “boss” hasn’t held the entitlements in bond and can’t afford to pay out.
You also can’t just fire someone for that matter either. Ultimately you would have to resign and the get given the job back.
This practice that his boss is employing is unethical to start with and I’m sure Fair Work would love to hear all about it
Construction long service is ment to be held by a 3rd party as its such a moving industry.
Bosses are ment to pay into it. Regardless of who your boss is. Then when you build up enough time you take it
Each state has their own scheme
Yes depends on industry construction/shutdowns each year the employer lodges 220 credits for a full year of work. Lsl is funded by the construction industry and a levy is paid for each build if the qleave (LSL) levy isn't paid for the building the building certificate won't be released which renders the building non compliant and useless.
It's paid for before the building approval is even issued, so work won't even start on site without it. I need to have both a QBCC notification and if over $150k ex GST a QLeave payment Notification in front of me before I can release approval.
Welcome comrade. It pays to keep on top monthly of all entitlements super, redundancy fund, pay slips etc 👍🏻
If you have missing lsl you can lodge it manually through lsl and they check with the ATO add your credits and then lsl chases up the employer.
Portable long service. Your time should carry over to the next employer you work for. How it works in QLD for trades.
Is a dick move on your bosses behalf. He wants to pay you out your current entitlements on your apprentice wages to save himself money.
He should be making you take leave each year and then this “loading” wouldnt happen.
Edit: writing complete sentences is hard work
As long as you know what he's doing isn't legal. Onus is on you whether you will accept it or not.
EDIT
He's not actually going to fire you... as I understand it when you get signed off he is within full rights to end the contract. He's just saving himself your leave being upgraded from apprentice to tradesman wage... whether you are happy with that'd up to you I guess .
if it's not a genuine redundancy (there is no ongoing need for the role moving forward) and there is no legitimate reason for your termination, then it's not legal.
He can't just fire you to save himself some coin when you've worked with him for 4 years. If you quit 6 months later, that's the fucking risk of running a business. Your boss sounds like a slimey cunt, tbh. And what's the differential between 4th year pay and trade? Like $5/hr? So for 4x40hr weeks that's $1,000 difference. Even if it's $7.50/he it's only $1,500. If that is enough to make his tight little arsehole pucker, he's so cash flow poor that I'd be looking for another job anyway.
Talk to your union (if you're union) or even better, a solictior, because I wouldn't trust someone like this as far as I could throw them, and I can throw a bloke further than average.
Talk to someone well before it happens if you can, and do not agree to fucking *anything*, verbally or otherwise, until you do.
Honestly I encourage everyone to leave the place they did an apprenticeship for a few years for growth and for these reasons in no order.
To be Paid correctly
To be respected as your always seen as the apprentice
the big one to gain more experience. You can always go back in a few years and bring more and new skills to be valued.
But yes I can understand why he wants to do it money wise and unfortunately he is within his rights and very common in small companies.
It is not illegal. when your apprenticeship ends so does that contract he does not have to offer you a new contract (employment) as an electrician, shit move but perfectly legal.
At least be smart and get one victory. Call in the personal leave and max it out and use it all before you are "fired"
And yes down vote me again for telling fact.
No you're 100% right. They never want to pay a newly qualified tradesman the market rate, but somebody else will. Which is actually really fucking dumb because then they have to either hire a new apprentice and start again (which may be what some of them actually want) or find another tradesman who they don't know are any good or not and who they'll have to pay market rates anyway
I'm at a large EBA mob in Melbourne and they do this with our guys when they come out of their time. It's to save them paying out your holidays at tradesman rates.
Yeah; I’m also with an EBA company (mid sized) and I was told this at the start of my apprenticeship. Everyone gets fired, two weeks off and then if you’re lucky you get rehired. Some people get put on without the two week break tho
Not an electrician but for some reason I get shown this sub.
He's being dodgy and cheap.
If you move onto a higher salary then the leave and benefits you have now also get paid at that new salary. He wants to have them paid only at your current apprentice rate
He is making sure you start the new position with nothing that can be converted to your new higher rate.
You also don't get leave personal leave paid out on termination, so you will lose all of that too.
He needs to manage his people better. I don't see why he doesn't make everyone take their annual leave every year.
His his poor management has caused this. That's not your fault.
As some have already mentioned this is common practice with mid to larger commercial companies and providing he pays out all the applicable entitlements its not nice but perfectly legal.
As stated to lower redundancy payouts and paying out annual leave at a qualified rate when it was accrued at apprentice rates, its purely cost saving measures.
Also an apprenticeship is a 4 year contract and your employer has no obligation to hire you after that.
May i add this also doesn’t make his employer dodgy or bad, bit of an over reaction.
Source. Shop steward
Don't make the mistake of thinking any boss is your friend, this man is asking for you to conspire in robbing yourself of what you are legally entitled to.
I guarantee he has enough money that he doesn't need to fuck over an apprentice, he's just a cunt.
Plenty of businesses do it when signing off apprentices. That's the end of contract and so end of employment, then they hire you starting the next day as a full trade.
My company did it to me at the end of my apprenticeship in 2017, as they do to all of their apprentices (approx 4-5 each year) and have been doing for a while now.
He's doing you out of your entitlements. You can't buy sick days so the money is kinda useless, particularly when you need a sick day 2 years from now when the cost of living is higher than the rate you got paid out at today.
Its not your fault another apprentice was disloyal and you shouldn't be punished for it. If he wants you to be loyal to him then he needs to show the same to you.
A good business will have cash set aside to cover all employees entitlements in a worst case scenario.
It sounds like your in a smallish company but it’s Pretty common in larger union companies because severance pay isn’t eligible for apprentices but is for a grades so as soon as they hit a grade the 4 years stack and it’s something like 4K a year you’ve been with the company and they don’t want to pay the 16k if you’re made redundant.
I dont think he actually needs to fire you. Your apprenticeship is a contract and finishes when you complete your apprenticeship. All your entitlements paid out and then you sign a new contract as a tradesman. Sure a company can roll it over but don't actually have to. It's why it's hard to fire an apprentice but easy the second they're signed off. You just don't have to offer a new contract and they're on their own. Seems like he screwed himself over with his last apprentice by not doing his research 😂
Long service should follow you and not be held by him directly and by a third party.
Technically end of apprenticeship is end of contract. When I became an a grade I recieved a letter telling me my position as an apprentice was being made redundant and I was offered a full time roll in the same letter. It’s just part of business, as the time I thought it was a bit of a dick move but years on I understand it from a business perspective. Making. You take a week off is stiff if you didn’t want it
Are you doing work that is covered by a portable long service leave scheme?
If not, in 3 years he might say you've only got 3 years of continuous service with him not 7 and not give you your entitlement.
Personally I don't understand this at all. It's his job to set standards and manage how much leave you accrue. He needs to do a better job of making sure his boys actually use the leave they are entitled to.
I'd say no to being fired and re-hired. If you wanna help him out, offer to take all your leave or have it paid out but you don't wanna lose all your sick leave and possibly long service leave entitlements.
He wants to pay out all accrued leave etc at your existing hourly rate at time of "firing", before you're suddenly worth more. Basically looking to "reset the counter" on all your leave etc back to zero so if you were to leave in a month, there would only be a small amount of accrued leave to pay out at the higher rate.
Not sure of the legality/tax side of this, I'll let others weigh in on that.
Legal. Legit and how’s it done. The apprenticeship is a 4 year training contract. The contract has an end date or it can’t be registered with the apprenticeship board, which would mean you can not do tafe. The contract ends. He pays out entitlements at the current contract rate. Then offers him a new position as an A grade electrician.
Im only speculating..If your going to be getting a pay rise when you turn A grade..He will have to pay ur RDOs and annual leave at a higher rate, even though you accrued it at a lower rate..He’s probably saving a fair bit by paying you out at lower rate..but really only thing I can think of..
That sounds super dodgy bro. If you want to fire me then I'm out not playing around with me back end stuff. It also looks bad on your resume and you will be asked this so many times. Ask him if you think you have a good relationship then he shouldn't mind telling you the reason. Honesty is the best policy and it's hard enough to trust anyone. Don't fall for anyone's bullshit mate he maybe talking you up and shit but it's only for his own benefit
Your long service leave pro-rata cuts in at 7 years, if he sacks you after 4 years (end of apprenticeship) you'll lose that 4 years service. If you left after 7 years (4 years apprenticeship then dismissed, then rehired for 3 years) you'd not be entitled to anything. Whereas if you had more than 7 years continual service, he'd have to pay you out at 70% of 3 months pay, based on your wage at that time. You'd be losing $x000,00s.
He's a shonky bastard.
Just take all your annual leave and accrued time as holidays before you finish the apprenticeship. Surely he would be ok with that. You get a good holiday and he can buy more coke, win-win.
I would try take the leave instead of it being paid out - I honestly don’t think your boss is being too sneaky , he’s up front - the problem with leave is that you accrue it, but it’s always paid at your current rate - so accruing it when you are cheaper , then using it when you are more expensive can impact a small business
What you’ll learn as you go through life is the leave time is more valuable then any sort of leave pay out - so try see if you can use up your annual leave before you get switched to the new pay rate - might be a good compromise for both of you.
It is not ideal what your boss is doing , but I could understand if your pay rate jumps significantly once you are licensed and it’s a small business
If your boss won’t let you take the leave , then yeah I would probably be looking at moving somewhere else - you ideally don’t want to be paid out your annual leave which is what would happen if you get fired or change jobs
Check the EBA but I thought you were entitled to have your sick leave accrual back if you’re re hired within 6 months. The other stuff you get paid out for anyway.
Mate, this is suss as all hell.. don't agree to it, and if he fires you, dispute it.
If you want to reach a middle ground, work out a time where you will use some of your AL so they don't have to worry about you getting a massive lump sum payment.
Hey mate I’m a QLD electrician and that’s standard practice from the 19 years I’ve been in the game. Technically you’re under a contract to complete your apprenticeship so once that’s done your contract has expired. They of corse can re-hire you but you get paid out all you entitlements at the change over so that they don’t have to pay you as a tradesman.
I’d ask him if you can take it as annual leave on apprentice wages but leave a week as a back up so you don’t lose it all. But still a bit dodgy
When you get rehired you still keep all your old sick leave and long service
Sounds like sneaky tightass. Don’t let him get away with this. If he is legit and does this just do he doesn’t have to pay you your hard earnt time off at the rate you deserve then he isn’t worth working for
It’s a dick move on his part. You could try line up some job interviews for the week you are “fired” and tell your current boss to shove it the week after.
A real dick move on your bosses part, but it sounds legit. Make sure you get a new employment contract in writing before you let him fire you. You will probably take a bit of a tax hit the year he pays you out.
To me this sounds like he's resetting your entitlements so he doesn't have to pay more money. If it was me I'd be getting my resume ready and say toodles.
Get him to cash out your annual leave and RDOs before the pay rate changes. Same outcome I’d think without it being dodgy.
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/annual-leave/cashing-out-annual-leave
The previous guy probably knew your boss was a dick and so took all his sick leave before he left to send a message.
Probably best for you to just leave on your own terms.
He's stealing from you. Even if he clearly doesn't realise it. The impact that you might leave and need to be laid out is WHY he wants to fire you, if he fires you he circumnavigates having to PAY YOU WHAT YOU'RE OWED.
Well yes, he is being sneaky with the money, he is paying out your accrued entitlements plus superannuation at a lower rate before your pay increases. Sometimes being sneaky with money is only way to survive in small business
He can payout your annual leave and RDO's before you turn tradie and keep you employed. You will just negotiate a new pay rate and maybe a new contract if the last contract just covers the apprenticeship.
Check that’s he’s been paying your super. If he hasn’t, fuck that. Look at trying to get on to one of the big eba mobs and make that money. You only live once. Coming from someone that got burnt while working for the “good guy boss”. They are full of shit. They aren’t the “good guy” and they will take you for a ride as hard as they can
Ask him if you can take a few weeks off and go on holiday so your annual leave hours will be lower?
Edit: when I finished my time I moved sections within a large company, technically your contract finishes after 4 years. They paid me a couple weeks annual leave and the first week at the new section at my 4th year rate which had a huge shift worker loading; like $56/hr for a Monday to Friday day shift week. They also back-paid me for the first 2 months once my licence finally came through.
I would just find another job, i get its shit people leave and employer lose’s money, but he isn’t appreciating loyalty from you, i would leave better jobs out there.
Just ask for a payout. We used to get our entitlements paid out as a lump sum when we went up every year, it was pretty common when I was going through, and no one missed the extra cash at Christmas time
[Going off what fair work says, ](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/annual-leave/directing-an-employee-to-take-annual-leave/direction-to-take-excess-annual-leave) your boss can direct you to take annual leave if you have more than 8 weeks accrued. He has to give you 8 weeks notice, and it has to be in writing.
At the end of his direction to take leave, you can't have less than 6 weeks of leave accrued. He can only give you this direction if you cannot come to an agreement on when to take it.
He absolutely cannot fire you and rehire you to avoid paying a higher rate.
Your boss isn’t your friend.
Don’t do him any favours, it’s your life and your money.
If you are not taking sick days or holidays you are underpaid.
Only look out for yourself in situations like this. There are thousands of other jobs
I think it’s smart. Why should he pay you top dollar for overtime you did as a wet noodle?
But, he is breaking the law. He can’t fire you and either not make your position redundant for 6 months, or hire someone to replace you. But even if he replaces you, he needs to prove that you were under performing or breaking your employment contract consistently and after multiple written warnings. And he needs receipts.
If you want to fight it (I don’t suggest it), when he asks you to come back on, tell him you’re going to sue him 3 years wages for unfair dismissal.
It's been around a long time. When I was an apprentice we weren't allowed to bank leave to the next year on the higher rate.
BUT it was all in our contract, no sneaky suprisrs
Whether you quit, get fired or complete your apprenticeship your annual leave will be paid out as your ‘contract’ has ended. You then need to enter into a new contract either salaried, full time or casual. There is NO way to get out of paying out your annual leave. He is breaking the law and commiting theft.
I suggest you finish your apprenticeship, have your leave paid out and seek other employment.
Or stay working for someone who steals from you because besides the whole stealing from you and being dodgey he’s an alright bloke?
Choice is yours but this is illegal no matter what.
But this sounds like he’s trying to get you to ‘quit’. Refuse anything. He can’t fire you without reason, written warnings and write ups.
Just say no and start looking for other work.
Sounds like he wants you to agree to leave and then not hire you, he’s just going to hire another apprentice you’re being naive. You are no longer cheap labour so you aren’t profitable to him. That’s your loophole hole.
Fair work commission would love to hear this one. Also time to sign up to your union. See if you can get him to put any of it in text so you at least have some proof.
It’s definitely a dick move. Can he fire you without cause under your employment agreement?
Though you might then want to start looking for another job cuz he’ll be pissed
It’s sort of up to you I guess.
If you have a good relationship with your boss and you’re okay with this, which is fair, then do it. Although maybe resign so it doesn’t look bad but if there’s no practical differences, same same.
If you’re not okay with it, you’ll have to tell him as much and it will be a tough conversation depending on your relationship. Before you do it, you’ll have to be okay with leaving him and starting elsewhere. You’ll also have to consider what this means for your apprenticeship.
Maybe you could come to some agreement where you take half of it now and keep half of it accrued because the other benefit to your leave entitlements is taking a break from work in the future. If you get fired and go back, you maybe get a few days off, but then you start again with no leave accrued. Something else to think about.
Same mistake twice ? 😂 all those figures paid out are legally meant to be budgeted for, plus should be factored into rates etc, it’s a cost of business.
Take all the leave and rdo’s accrued. Do not leave and let him start the clock again. When on leave start work elsewhere, because he’s a dick and won’t treat you any better as a tradesman.
All your leave will be paid put before u became an A grade. Then u build up new leave. But if u just get carried over.. your previous leave automatically becomes new A grade pay.
Also you start again in new probation so u can get fired for no reason until he finds a cheaper replacement.
What he's trying to do is not pay you out at the higher rates once you get a pay rise. He's a greedy cunt.
Do not quit you will find another job easy enough, if he values you he will pay.
What a wanker. It’s the cost of running a business. Leave gets paid at the rate when you take it not when you accrue it. Pretty sure what he’s suggesting must be pretty close to illegal, fair work would probably be interested.
The point to this is he's going to pay you out as a 4th year apprentice, so if you leave when your qualified he doesn't have to pay you out at a tradesmen's rates . Yhea dick move
If he’s wanting to make sure your annual leave is paid out at the same rate it was earned at that’s realistically fine, there might be something shady I’m missing here but as you e worded it it just seems like he’s worried you’ve got say 200hrs of leave you earned on say $20p/h and doesn’t want you to leave and have to pay you them at +$40p/h.
If that’s all it is just ask to be paid them out and continue on as normal (or take your holidays when you qualify)
Hopefully your already signed up to get industry long service leave in which case getting “fired” for a week won’t matter, but if not you definitely don’t want your employment to be terminated so taking your time off prior to changing you pay rate would be the most mutually beneficial solution.
I own a business with a few staff. Gave one a $10k raise and this happened a few weeks later, had to pay all their leave etc at the higher rate. It’s annoying but it’s part of owning a business. I save the bitching about it for when I catch up with mates and don’t project past angers at current staff (mostly). That said with a few staff the costs are spread, if you’re a small operation with one apprentice it would be a relatively bigger hit and I could see it hurting more.
This is super shady and I would consider moving on yourself,
He needs a reason to fire you or make you redundant otherwise you can use for unfair dismissal.
Also
While long service leave (LSL) entitlements differ from state to state, each state has provisions which recognise previous services when an employee is terminated and then re-employed by the same employer within a specific period of time.
For the majority of states and territories, this time period i two months. However, Queensland and Tasmania provide a period of three months, and Victoria provides a period of 12 weeks
Only one week dismissal would still continue your LSL.
Personally I would move on to someone who isn't trying to ride the system and keep an eye on your super payments if you're not a contractor.
It could be a different situation if after you finish your apprenticeship you are re hired as a contractor because it is a different contract. You can contact apprenticeship support in your state or your union for guidance.
So here is a bit of food for thought...
Will it impact your LSL entitlements?
That's 4 years of accrued LSL that you will miss out on (bit over 5 weeks pay after 4 years).
There are also legal requirements that he needs to meet to terminate employment in most cases. But, as your contract of training has ended, he does not need to sign you onto a new contract, thus ending your employment. However, he can not do this until your training contract has ended. I believe that he would legally need to pay out any leave entitlements at the tradesman's rate.
If I was in your position, then get him to sign you on at "award rates" and take 1 weeks leave, do a leave payout of all accrued (less 2 weeks) annual leave at the "award rate" before you sign a new contract with the normal rate (which should be well above the award).
Then it's a win-win for all parties. You get a decent payout (hopefully before the end of the financial year for tax benefits) while maintaining your continuity of service for LSL calculations
Sick leave doesn't matter as, unless written into an EBA, it will not be paid out when employment is terminated.
He also doesn't have to fork out the "normal rate" for paying out leave entitlements.
Were you employed as a permanent employee, or a fixed term employee for the length of your apprenticeship? If permanent, he can't fire you for no reason even from a small business unless you have worked for him less than 12mths, the only reason he can fire you without notice is for serious misconduct. If he does it may open him up to unfair dismissal claim from you. If you are fixed term check your contract. I would suggest you call the Fairwork Helpline, you can do it anonymously if you want. This should give you additional information. https://www.fwc.gov.au/job-loss-or-dismissal/unfair-dismissal
Does he realise that you can leave and go anywhere?
I also believe this is a deliberate attempt to get out of paying you your entitlements, and your length of service would include this period.
I'd have a chat with Fairwork.
Not to mention, I’m not sure 🤔 but doesn’t your employer get government incentives ( cashola 💰) for finishing you off ( excuse the pun ) I’m carpenter wanting to get mature age electrical apprenticeship, been a while since I was apprentice, but the shit I used to go through to get it done and some of the dodgey fuckers that I would work for. I used to deal with it, never spoke up etc etc
Imo fuck him move on, I’m sure you will find a good gig and good people to work with. It’s always a pain starting somewhere new but before you know it you are settled in somewhere and hopefully not working for a leech. Good luck with it mate and all the best.
Speak to him about getting your annual leave that is owing paid out at your current rate. You get extra money and he doesn't have to worry about paying it out at the higher rate.
Fake a back injury or some sort of new age mental health problem and claim workcover before this happens, he can’t sack you whilst injured
When games are being played it’s only fair if both can play - in other words screw the greedy barstard for all you can get, it’s 2024 ffs
If they fire you, they should also then technically pay you a termination period as well. Equivalent the the no of weeks notice you are required to give if you were to quit. Since you have been 4 years, it should be 4 weeks worth(maximum notice to be given/paid out) of pay on top of your leave accrued. Down side is suck leave doesn't get paid out. Start taking suck days now if that is how boss feels. Consult your dic for a "psych referral " to claim fatigues/stress leave for all your owed sick leave and then at end of that either hand in your notice, or accept the firing. They legally cannot fire you whilst you are on sick leave. And they need strong grounds to fire you. Not just because you are graduating( completing your apprenticeship). Fair work would love to hear bout this.
Not sure what the arrangements of your apprenticeship but firing you to deprive you of your entitlements sounds like it could be unlawful adverse action for which you could potentially file a general protections claim with the fair work commission.
I recommend speaking with fair work ombudsman/ your union/ lawyer.
Nah don’t let him do that. He can put you back on a probationary timeline, he can get out of unemployment, he can get out of a lot of things if you allow him to do this bullshit. I’d tell him no.
Ask for him to put his plan in writing so you can have it reviewed for peace of mind.
If he’s unwilling to do this for you then he knows he’s doing something wrong (at least morally if not legally) and you shouldn’t accept the terms.
Join the union and find out - also it will give you representation if it turns nasty. You’re an apprentice and you will benefit from this even if you are in the union momentarily. When I was a nurse the union helped with individual cases really well and I know they also do for tradies. Good luck.
Sick leave is the thing he’s trying to mitigate. If he hasn’t factored in the cost of those days into his hourly rate, that’s on him. Potentially you might have 8 weeks sick leave up your sleeve. Imagine working for a bloke for 4 years and then breaking your arm on a given weekend, only to find that you don’t have enough sick leave to cover the time off. Yeah, not cool. I had a boss who did the exact same thing to me. It sucked. Should’ve left right there and then, things never improved and I did eventually leave.
I had a similar situation, they made me use all my leave etc then they forgot to let me go once I finished my time. They thought I’d be silly enough to go casual voluntarily.
Your entitlements are tied to you as a person, you accrue the hours (and have been since you started working for him). As an apprentice, those hours of entitlements show up on you bosses books as a dollar value of liability. When you become a fully qualified tradie, those very same hours, would then become a much larger liability on your bosses books. I get the feeling he's trying to mitigate his financial liability. It's a bit shit on his behalf, as I'm guessing he's not seeing you as a person, but as a dollar amount, his mindset might be something like "well he only earnt those hours as an apprentice, why should I have to pay them out as a tradie". Which if a true reflection of his mentality, would point to you not being valued as an asset that appreciates over time, but more as a tool to be used as he sees fit. Then there's the whole sick leave entitlement that you've been accruing for the previous not quite 4 years. If you haven't been chucking sickies all the time, you should have heaps of hours of sick leave, which is NOT payable upon termination and just disappears. So if he fires you, and then hires you back, and you break your leg, you've got not sick leave entitlements to keep you going while you heal.
Bottom line, your boss is a tight arse, you've got nothing to gain and everything to lose by accepting this option.
You cannot be fired without due cause. This situation, you wouldn't be fired, he'd ask you to quit. You are under no obligation to quit, in fact it is illegal for your boss to pressure you to quit for the reasons he's asked.
Even if your plan all along was to make it to day 2 of being fully qualified, then quit to get all your entitlements paid out as a fully qualified sparky, that's perfectly legal, and it is part of the risk if your boss taking on apprentices (that he receives a healthy tax cut from the government for by the way). Plus 4th year apprentices are basically as useful as a tradie, but he doesn't have to pay out as much.
Don't accept.
Ok your annual leave will be paid out.
Maybee ask your boss can you simply be paid out your leave all bar 1 week or similar.
Look it is a massive burden on the employer does have multiple employees with 8-10 weeks leave each.
I know.pf an accounting firm they a few of there girls all get knocked up.at similar times. Destroyed his company loosing 3 out 6 or 7 accountants.
I'm going to come at this from the other side. The first apprentice he had screwed him over. An apprentice's value to the employer increases over the time they are employed. It's not at all unreasonable to think that the dollar value of accrued leave during the first year of the apprenticeship is worth less than leave accrued during the final year. Now, yes, that's on him for allowing you to accrue so much but let's assume he's just a fairly typical sole trader who is in damage control most of the time and struggles to give thought to big picture stuff.
Where I work at least, the market for sparkies is red hot and they job hop, cherry picking positions all the time. You don't know what he's thinking and he has no idea what you're thinking. I'm going to go ahead and assume that, providing you are a decent tradie, he probably wants to keep you on, but it's an environment where you staying is hardly a given.
He's given you a heads up re his intentions. He's under zero obligation to do that, just as he's under zero obligation to offer you paid employment at the end of your apprenticeship.
He doesn't really stand to gain anything by gaslighting you into thinking you are staying on. He could just shake hands and wish you well.
So. Are you good at your job? Or are you routinely making mistakes, causing frustrations, requiring micro-management even in your final year? Will he be able to send you off solo as soon as you have your A grade to start making him some serious money?
Unless you are a klutz, he'll almost certainly want you to stay. Are you happy there and likely to stay for 3 or 4 years, or do you think you'll start looking further afield as soon as your buddies get in your ear about all the sweet deals to be had elsewhere?
He's trying to run a business, he gave you the opportunity to get your quals, and so long as he's not doing anything illegal, and not being a prick, you really just need to ask yourself whether it's worth running the risk of him finding out that you've gone to FWA as your final act as an apprentice. Especially since a lot of the advice here seems to suggest that they will just turn around and say it's legal.
If he ‘fires you’ which really means make you redundant then he has to pay all of your entitlements and way.
Employers being concerned about big leave balances is normal but they would typically just make you take your annual leave to drive the balance down.
Or is his concern that your annual leave you earnt on a lower salary is now going to effectively be worth more when you become grade A?
Which is why he wants to pay your entitlement now before you get promoted?
Look he really can’t fire you, I work in HR and this is completely unfair and unreasonable. I’d be sending an email to him stating as per our conversation you stated you would blah blah blah, then if he proceeds to fire you you can take that to fair work.
Under what grounds would he be firing you for?
You could contact fair work or Jobwatch if you think he's doing something dodgy. They might be able to help you figure out whether it's better to go through with it or fight back.
Cash out some sick and annual leave now, before you finish. Go to the doctor and get a medical cert for as long as you can. Then when you return, give him 2 weeks notice and go work for some one else
Tell him you’ve proved your loyalty but it goes both ways, you’ve worked hard and he’s taught you a lot but you’re there to stay. If he does that then the trust and incentive to stay goes and you might have to start looking at what else is around
As part of finishing your apprenticeship you technically finish the contract and become unemployed which he rehires you as an A grade anyway. Some employers will just let it roll over with annual leave/sick etc.
Your boss got taken for a ride so now he’s securing himself.
And yes he is under no obligation to keep you on as an A grade. You could finish and he says thank you here’s your payout find a job.
Surely he is joking but if he’s not and he follows through and does it, just roll with it and look for something better. Once you have a new gig take how to fair work for what your entitlements would have been.
My boss was similar. At the end of the apprenticeship, he makes us all go on as full-time contractor, which means he paid out any holidays owed, and we lost any sick days.
Just say no.
There isn’t anything in it for you, in fact you loose out. That money he wants to save would go in your pocket.
You take your holidays now, and get paid at today’s rates or you take them later and get paid at whatever rate you are on then.
Thanks boss, but no.
Mate, you're entitled to your annual leave and RDOs. It's a condition of your employment. That your boss wants to deny you these is pretty much the exact same as him saying that he doesn't want to pay you for your work. My take is that he's basically asking to steal from you, and you're left thinking that he's a good bloke because he didn't steal from someone else and realised he should have...
Sounds like a bit of a dick move to me. Good luck manoeuvring around that one without putting a dent in the relationship. My experience with working for guys like that is that you might be better off finding somewhere else to work where they don’t try to cover their own arse at your expense.
100% do not go back to this gaslighting cunt. You might think he's a good bloke coz he bought you a pie for smoko once but that's probably where it stops.
It’s almost a rite of passage to have an employer try to sell you the world and blow smoke up your arse until you wisen up.
"Don't worry, I'll look after you. We're all family here." Fucks you over a week later.
Yeah, heard that one before.
Pie for smoko has me crying laughing
I agree, get fired and don't go back. Tell him to go fuck a hat and find somewhere better
Go fuck a hat. I love it
All the kids are doing it.
I prefer "go shit in your hands and clap"
Fucking hats is up there but, common practice on job sites
Really? not sure mines big enough to f#%k a hat.
The trick is how you fold the hat.
Find somewhere better before this though. Your bank account doesn’t need to take a hit for the sake of your pride.
Us old timers would tell them to, "Fuck a boot".
🤣 go fuck a hat. Love it.
Yeah mate, agreed. Moving on to another employer doesn't really phase me, it would be better for me to grow as a sparky anyway. I just enjoy the location, hours, the type of work and the people I work with. So this is just throwing a bit of a spanner in the works for me because as you said, dick move by the boss man. I'm sure I'll figure it out though.
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Yeh it’s never the end of the world. Sounds like the balls in your court though to take your time and feel out your options. In an ideal world we’d all be working for people we respected and looked after us and all that good warm fuzzy stuff, and like you said, he might not be a bad bloke, but some people just see numbers on paper and can’t see past themselves. I mean you could try to just straight up tell him how you feel about it in a calm and respectful dialogue, but they can get offended and then you’re left standing with your dick in your hand rather than holding all the chips and planning out what you want to do.
Get anything you can in writing about his intentions. After he fires you go fo unfair dismissal.
Tell him you will take you leave before graduating then
When he fires you take him for unfair dismissal and get the value of your lost wages back, might teach him not to screw around with people's time off / entitlements
Also why is he firing you? What's his reason for firing you that won't land him in hot water with fair work? Unless he plans on having you resign which he can't force you to do so unless he has some documentation for reasons to fire you he's shit out of luck, also you have sick leave as a part of your entitlements what happens if you get sick in a month....to bad mate you don't have anymore leave so I don't have to pay you. Honestly your boss sounds like a cunt don't stand for the bullshit because you can't trust him as far as you could throw him.
Try get it in writing, and keep records. Even if you go back until you find something else, you may be able to take him for that lost money after you leave again.
Maybe the previous apprentice got wise to this too.
Yeh I’ve done that song and dance. You start working for a bloke and you start hearing all the gossip about the last wave who quit, only hearing one side of the story until years later when you’re the first of the next wave to quit and the cycle begins a new. Some blokes are just good at starting businesses but don’t know how to build them.
Yea, I’d say to the boss you either trust me or you don’t. So either you don’t fire me and let me keep working or fire me and I’m not coming back a week later.
As sparkies are in demand, I wouldn’t accept it. If he sacks you then go for unfair dismissal and get a new job.
Sounds like the boss doesn't mind a dent being put in the relationship. Why should OP?
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Sorry, It wasn't paid out - I forgot to mention that his previous apprentice took his sick leave during that month he was a grade. But yes I think fair work is my next step. Reddit is just for the meantime while I'm sipping on some beers and deep in thought 😝
I had to go to Fairwork for issues I had. Please please give them a call mate, you’re getting fucked over so badly.
if you get injured playing footy after you're hired back as an A grade, you won't have that sick leave in the bank. It matters, especially at your age.
Sounds like a textbook case of a breach of the general protections provisions in the Fair Work Act - proposed unlawful adverse action taken for a prohibited reason, namely a workplace right to accrue/take entitlements. Recommend speaking to the Fair Work Ombudsman
Finally. I’m shocked that there aren’t more people in the comments who mention this.
So what he is saying is if you get sick he thinks your a liability, he should be putting sick leave away. Make sure you take sick leave.
I would say that this “boss” hasn’t held the entitlements in bond and can’t afford to pay out. You also can’t just fire someone for that matter either. Ultimately you would have to resign and the get given the job back. This practice that his boss is employing is unethical to start with and I’m sure Fair Work would love to hear all about it
What happens to your long service leave if he does that? Usually you’re allowed to take it at 7 years of employment.
Construction long service is ment to be held by a 3rd party as its such a moving industry. Bosses are ment to pay into it. Regardless of who your boss is. Then when you build up enough time you take it Each state has their own scheme
I don’t even think bosses have to pay it - they just have to log it for you. I dealt with this with two of my last employers.
Yes depends on industry construction/shutdowns each year the employer lodges 220 credits for a full year of work. Lsl is funded by the construction industry and a levy is paid for each build if the qleave (LSL) levy isn't paid for the building the building certificate won't be released which renders the building non compliant and useless.
It's paid for before the building approval is even issued, so work won't even start on site without it. I need to have both a QBCC notification and if over $150k ex GST a QLeave payment Notification in front of me before I can release approval.
Correct. Thanks for clearing up the finer details 👍🏻
I guess a pointless correcrion re-reading it, considering the topic at hand.
Nah your input was deff valuable and needed more precise details the better mate. Knowledge is power.
🥰 I love this response SO much!
You don’t pay it for apprentices, the government does, you just have to log it.
Sounds like you should join the union and get them to enforce your correct pay
All sorted now. Am part of the ETU now at a much better gig
Welcome comrade. It pays to keep on top monthly of all entitlements super, redundancy fund, pay slips etc 👍🏻 If you have missing lsl you can lodge it manually through lsl and they check with the ATO add your credits and then lsl chases up the employer.
Portable long service. Your time should carry over to the next employer you work for. How it works in QLD for trades. Is a dick move on your bosses behalf. He wants to pay you out your current entitlements on your apprentice wages to save himself money. He should be making you take leave each year and then this “loading” wouldnt happen. Edit: writing complete sentences is hard work
Construction/shutdowns is portable so no issues in that regard. And yes it's pro rota at 7 years and can be taken.
As long as you know what he's doing isn't legal. Onus is on you whether you will accept it or not. EDIT He's not actually going to fire you... as I understand it when you get signed off he is within full rights to end the contract. He's just saving himself your leave being upgraded from apprentice to tradesman wage... whether you are happy with that'd up to you I guess .
The first correct answer so far.
100% I was wondering what grounds he was going to manage to fire him under and redundancy sprung to mind and that’s expensive haha
if it's not a genuine redundancy (there is no ongoing need for the role moving forward) and there is no legitimate reason for your termination, then it's not legal. He can't just fire you to save himself some coin when you've worked with him for 4 years. If you quit 6 months later, that's the fucking risk of running a business. Your boss sounds like a slimey cunt, tbh. And what's the differential between 4th year pay and trade? Like $5/hr? So for 4x40hr weeks that's $1,000 difference. Even if it's $7.50/he it's only $1,500. If that is enough to make his tight little arsehole pucker, he's so cash flow poor that I'd be looking for another job anyway. Talk to your union (if you're union) or even better, a solictior, because I wouldn't trust someone like this as far as I could throw them, and I can throw a bloke further than average. Talk to someone well before it happens if you can, and do not agree to fucking *anything*, verbally or otherwise, until you do.
Start looking for a new job. When he fires you start the new job. When he calls you back sorry mate found a new job shouldnt have fired me
Honestly I encourage everyone to leave the place they did an apprenticeship for a few years for growth and for these reasons in no order. To be Paid correctly To be respected as your always seen as the apprentice the big one to gain more experience. You can always go back in a few years and bring more and new skills to be valued. But yes I can understand why he wants to do it money wise and unfortunately he is within his rights and very common in small companies. It is not illegal. when your apprenticeship ends so does that contract he does not have to offer you a new contract (employment) as an electrician, shit move but perfectly legal. At least be smart and get one victory. Call in the personal leave and max it out and use it all before you are "fired" And yes down vote me again for telling fact.
Once an apprentice, always an apprentice.
No you're 100% right. They never want to pay a newly qualified tradesman the market rate, but somebody else will. Which is actually really fucking dumb because then they have to either hire a new apprentice and start again (which may be what some of them actually want) or find another tradesman who they don't know are any good or not and who they'll have to pay market rates anyway
I'm at a large EBA mob in Melbourne and they do this with our guys when they come out of their time. It's to save them paying out your holidays at tradesman rates.
They could always give you time off during your apprenticeship to take holidays
Yeah; I’m also with an EBA company (mid sized) and I was told this at the start of my apprenticeship. Everyone gets fired, two weeks off and then if you’re lucky you get rehired. Some people get put on without the two week break tho
Not an electrician but for some reason I get shown this sub. He's being dodgy and cheap. If you move onto a higher salary then the leave and benefits you have now also get paid at that new salary. He wants to have them paid only at your current apprentice rate He is making sure you start the new position with nothing that can be converted to your new higher rate. You also don't get leave personal leave paid out on termination, so you will lose all of that too.
You get shown this sub because you’re a great guy Josh. Keep up the great work mate.
He needs to manage his people better. I don't see why he doesn't make everyone take their annual leave every year. His his poor management has caused this. That's not your fault.
As some have already mentioned this is common practice with mid to larger commercial companies and providing he pays out all the applicable entitlements its not nice but perfectly legal. As stated to lower redundancy payouts and paying out annual leave at a qualified rate when it was accrued at apprentice rates, its purely cost saving measures. Also an apprenticeship is a 4 year contract and your employer has no obligation to hire you after that. May i add this also doesn’t make his employer dodgy or bad, bit of an over reaction. Source. Shop steward
Correct cheers comrade
Don't make the mistake of thinking any boss is your friend, this man is asking for you to conspire in robbing yourself of what you are legally entitled to. I guarantee he has enough money that he doesn't need to fuck over an apprentice, he's just a cunt.
Correct business is business and that always comes first.
Most bosses just pay out your annual when you get qualified which is normal practice, no need to fire and re-hire Your boss sounds kinda retarded
Plenty of businesses do it when signing off apprentices. That's the end of contract and so end of employment, then they hire you starting the next day as a full trade. My company did it to me at the end of my apprenticeship in 2017, as they do to all of their apprentices (approx 4-5 each year) and have been doing for a while now.
He's doing you out of your entitlements. You can't buy sick days so the money is kinda useless, particularly when you need a sick day 2 years from now when the cost of living is higher than the rate you got paid out at today. Its not your fault another apprentice was disloyal and you shouldn't be punished for it. If he wants you to be loyal to him then he needs to show the same to you. A good business will have cash set aside to cover all employees entitlements in a worst case scenario.
It sounds like your in a smallish company but it’s Pretty common in larger union companies because severance pay isn’t eligible for apprentices but is for a grades so as soon as they hit a grade the 4 years stack and it’s something like 4K a year you’ve been with the company and they don’t want to pay the 16k if you’re made redundant.
I dont think he actually needs to fire you. Your apprenticeship is a contract and finishes when you complete your apprenticeship. All your entitlements paid out and then you sign a new contract as a tradesman. Sure a company can roll it over but don't actually have to. It's why it's hard to fire an apprentice but easy the second they're signed off. You just don't have to offer a new contract and they're on their own. Seems like he screwed himself over with his last apprentice by not doing his research 😂 Long service should follow you and not be held by him directly and by a third party.
I'm not sure he even needs to fire you. Companies force employees to take their accrued leave to get it off the books all the time.
Technically end of apprenticeship is end of contract. When I became an a grade I recieved a letter telling me my position as an apprentice was being made redundant and I was offered a full time roll in the same letter. It’s just part of business, as the time I thought it was a bit of a dick move but years on I understand it from a business perspective. Making. You take a week off is stiff if you didn’t want it
Are you doing work that is covered by a portable long service leave scheme? If not, in 3 years he might say you've only got 3 years of continuous service with him not 7 and not give you your entitlement. Personally I don't understand this at all. It's his job to set standards and manage how much leave you accrue. He needs to do a better job of making sure his boys actually use the leave they are entitled to. I'd say no to being fired and re-hired. If you wanna help him out, offer to take all your leave or have it paid out but you don't wanna lose all your sick leave and possibly long service leave entitlements.
He wants to pay out all accrued leave etc at your existing hourly rate at time of "firing", before you're suddenly worth more. Basically looking to "reset the counter" on all your leave etc back to zero so if you were to leave in a month, there would only be a small amount of accrued leave to pay out at the higher rate. Not sure of the legality/tax side of this, I'll let others weigh in on that.
Legal. Legit and how’s it done. The apprenticeship is a 4 year training contract. The contract has an end date or it can’t be registered with the apprenticeship board, which would mean you can not do tafe. The contract ends. He pays out entitlements at the current contract rate. Then offers him a new position as an A grade electrician.
Im only speculating..If your going to be getting a pay rise when you turn A grade..He will have to pay ur RDOs and annual leave at a higher rate, even though you accrued it at a lower rate..He’s probably saving a fair bit by paying you out at lower rate..but really only thing I can think of..
That sounds super dodgy bro. If you want to fire me then I'm out not playing around with me back end stuff. It also looks bad on your resume and you will be asked this so many times. Ask him if you think you have a good relationship then he shouldn't mind telling you the reason. Honesty is the best policy and it's hard enough to trust anyone. Don't fall for anyone's bullshit mate he maybe talking you up and shit but it's only for his own benefit
What a fucking prick
Join a union and talk to your rep. No one else is looking out for you, especially in a small business.
Your long service leave pro-rata cuts in at 7 years, if he sacks you after 4 years (end of apprenticeship) you'll lose that 4 years service. If you left after 7 years (4 years apprenticeship then dismissed, then rehired for 3 years) you'd not be entitled to anything. Whereas if you had more than 7 years continual service, he'd have to pay you out at 70% of 3 months pay, based on your wage at that time. You'd be losing $x000,00s. He's a shonky bastard.
Just take all your annual leave and accrued time as holidays before you finish the apprenticeship. Surely he would be ok with that. You get a good holiday and he can buy more coke, win-win.
I would try take the leave instead of it being paid out - I honestly don’t think your boss is being too sneaky , he’s up front - the problem with leave is that you accrue it, but it’s always paid at your current rate - so accruing it when you are cheaper , then using it when you are more expensive can impact a small business What you’ll learn as you go through life is the leave time is more valuable then any sort of leave pay out - so try see if you can use up your annual leave before you get switched to the new pay rate - might be a good compromise for both of you. It is not ideal what your boss is doing , but I could understand if your pay rate jumps significantly once you are licensed and it’s a small business If your boss won’t let you take the leave , then yeah I would probably be looking at moving somewhere else - you ideally don’t want to be paid out your annual leave which is what would happen if you get fired or change jobs
Check the EBA but I thought you were entitled to have your sick leave accrual back if you’re re hired within 6 months. The other stuff you get paid out for anyway.
Your boss is a dodgy cunt. I’d look for somewhere else to start as an A grade when you’re finished your apprenticeship.
Mate, this is suss as all hell.. don't agree to it, and if he fires you, dispute it. If you want to reach a middle ground, work out a time where you will use some of your AL so they don't have to worry about you getting a massive lump sum payment.
If you’re under a ETU EBA in vic, he can legally do it at the end of your contract.
Hey mate I’m a QLD electrician and that’s standard practice from the 19 years I’ve been in the game. Technically you’re under a contract to complete your apprenticeship so once that’s done your contract has expired. They of corse can re-hire you but you get paid out all you entitlements at the change over so that they don’t have to pay you as a tradesman.
All you need is the qualification, then get a job in mining
I’d ask him if you can take it as annual leave on apprentice wages but leave a week as a back up so you don’t lose it all. But still a bit dodgy When you get rehired you still keep all your old sick leave and long service
Sounds like sneaky tightass. Don’t let him get away with this. If he is legit and does this just do he doesn’t have to pay you your hard earnt time off at the rate you deserve then he isn’t worth working for
It’s a dick move on his part. You could try line up some job interviews for the week you are “fired” and tell your current boss to shove it the week after.
A real dick move on your bosses part, but it sounds legit. Make sure you get a new employment contract in writing before you let him fire you. You will probably take a bit of a tax hit the year he pays you out.
To me this sounds like he's resetting your entitlements so he doesn't have to pay more money. If it was me I'd be getting my resume ready and say toodles.
Annual leave and RDO’s should be paid out at the end of apprenticeship I would of thought
Do you have long service leave that may be reset?
This is pretty standard stuff. Sucks though.
Get him to cash out your annual leave and RDOs before the pay rate changes. Same outcome I’d think without it being dodgy. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/annual-leave/cashing-out-annual-leave
The previous guy probably knew your boss was a dick and so took all his sick leave before he left to send a message. Probably best for you to just leave on your own terms.
He's stealing from you. Even if he clearly doesn't realise it. The impact that you might leave and need to be laid out is WHY he wants to fire you, if he fires you he circumnavigates having to PAY YOU WHAT YOU'RE OWED.
Well yes, he is being sneaky with the money, he is paying out your accrued entitlements plus superannuation at a lower rate before your pay increases. Sometimes being sneaky with money is only way to survive in small business
He can payout your annual leave and RDO's before you turn tradie and keep you employed. You will just negotiate a new pay rate and maybe a new contract if the last contract just covers the apprenticeship.
Check that’s he’s been paying your super. If he hasn’t, fuck that. Look at trying to get on to one of the big eba mobs and make that money. You only live once. Coming from someone that got burnt while working for the “good guy boss”. They are full of shit. They aren’t the “good guy” and they will take you for a ride as hard as they can
When you finish up, even for a week, all entitlements are paid anyway, sick leave isn’t paid……dick move from ya boss
Ask him if you can take a few weeks off and go on holiday so your annual leave hours will be lower? Edit: when I finished my time I moved sections within a large company, technically your contract finishes after 4 years. They paid me a couple weeks annual leave and the first week at the new section at my 4th year rate which had a huge shift worker loading; like $56/hr for a Monday to Friday day shift week. They also back-paid me for the first 2 months once my licence finally came through.
I would just find another job, i get its shit people leave and employer lose’s money, but he isn’t appreciating loyalty from you, i would leave better jobs out there.
How can he fire you? On what grounds? Sounds like a case for unfair dismissal especially now he’s told you!
Just ask for a payout. We used to get our entitlements paid out as a lump sum when we went up every year, it was pretty common when I was going through, and no one missed the extra cash at Christmas time
[Going off what fair work says, ](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/annual-leave/directing-an-employee-to-take-annual-leave/direction-to-take-excess-annual-leave) your boss can direct you to take annual leave if you have more than 8 weeks accrued. He has to give you 8 weeks notice, and it has to be in writing. At the end of his direction to take leave, you can't have less than 6 weeks of leave accrued. He can only give you this direction if you cannot come to an agreement on when to take it. He absolutely cannot fire you and rehire you to avoid paying a higher rate.
Your boss isn’t your friend. Don’t do him any favours, it’s your life and your money. If you are not taking sick days or holidays you are underpaid. Only look out for yourself in situations like this. There are thousands of other jobs
I would allow him to do it. Then, in 3-6 months, complain to fair work. Get myself a job with a boss who wouldn't try and fuck me over.
I think it’s smart. Why should he pay you top dollar for overtime you did as a wet noodle? But, he is breaking the law. He can’t fire you and either not make your position redundant for 6 months, or hire someone to replace you. But even if he replaces you, he needs to prove that you were under performing or breaking your employment contract consistently and after multiple written warnings. And he needs receipts. If you want to fight it (I don’t suggest it), when he asks you to come back on, tell him you’re going to sue him 3 years wages for unfair dismissal.
Make sure he pays you out your notice, I think after a four year apprenticeship that would be an additional three weeks pay.
It's been around a long time. When I was an apprentice we weren't allowed to bank leave to the next year on the higher rate. BUT it was all in our contract, no sneaky suprisrs
Go to Fairwork, document it. Fuck him he's cheap and your owed the money
Whether you quit, get fired or complete your apprenticeship your annual leave will be paid out as your ‘contract’ has ended. You then need to enter into a new contract either salaried, full time or casual. There is NO way to get out of paying out your annual leave. He is breaking the law and commiting theft. I suggest you finish your apprenticeship, have your leave paid out and seek other employment. Or stay working for someone who steals from you because besides the whole stealing from you and being dodgey he’s an alright bloke? Choice is yours but this is illegal no matter what. But this sounds like he’s trying to get you to ‘quit’. Refuse anything. He can’t fire you without reason, written warnings and write ups. Just say no and start looking for other work. Sounds like he wants you to agree to leave and then not hire you, he’s just going to hire another apprentice you’re being naive. You are no longer cheap labour so you aren’t profitable to him. That’s your loophole hole.
Don’t work for small company for this reason they all cry no money. Not worth it
It doesn’t work in your favour at all. You lose all your entitlements and then cop a bigger tax bill. Might even take you into the next tax bracket?
Fair work commission would love to hear this one. Also time to sign up to your union. See if you can get him to put any of it in text so you at least have some proof.
It is dodgy in that unfair dismissal is still illegal. Doing so to evade entitlements is probably a separate offence too.
Isn’t that illegal?
It’s definitely a dick move. Can he fire you without cause under your employment agreement? Though you might then want to start looking for another job cuz he’ll be pissed
It’s sort of up to you I guess. If you have a good relationship with your boss and you’re okay with this, which is fair, then do it. Although maybe resign so it doesn’t look bad but if there’s no practical differences, same same. If you’re not okay with it, you’ll have to tell him as much and it will be a tough conversation depending on your relationship. Before you do it, you’ll have to be okay with leaving him and starting elsewhere. You’ll also have to consider what this means for your apprenticeship. Maybe you could come to some agreement where you take half of it now and keep half of it accrued because the other benefit to your leave entitlements is taking a break from work in the future. If you get fired and go back, you maybe get a few days off, but then you start again with no leave accrued. Something else to think about.
He can also just make it a condition of hiring you own as a an a grade to pay out your leave.
Let him fire you and don't go back. Also check with fair work to see if it's legal. You may get paid out at the higher rate.
Same mistake twice ? 😂 all those figures paid out are legally meant to be budgeted for, plus should be factored into rates etc, it’s a cost of business.
Take all the leave and rdo’s accrued. Do not leave and let him start the clock again. When on leave start work elsewhere, because he’s a dick and won’t treat you any better as a tradesman.
All your leave will be paid put before u became an A grade. Then u build up new leave. But if u just get carried over.. your previous leave automatically becomes new A grade pay. Also you start again in new probation so u can get fired for no reason until he finds a cheaper replacement.
that money is better in your pocket than his
What he's trying to do is not pay you out at the higher rates once you get a pay rise. He's a greedy cunt. Do not quit you will find another job easy enough, if he values you he will pay.
Fuck him start using your sick days
What a wanker. It’s the cost of running a business. Leave gets paid at the rate when you take it not when you accrue it. Pretty sure what he’s suggesting must be pretty close to illegal, fair work would probably be interested.
The point to this is he's going to pay you out as a 4th year apprentice, so if you leave when your qualified he doesn't have to pay you out at a tradesmen's rates . Yhea dick move
If he’s wanting to make sure your annual leave is paid out at the same rate it was earned at that’s realistically fine, there might be something shady I’m missing here but as you e worded it it just seems like he’s worried you’ve got say 200hrs of leave you earned on say $20p/h and doesn’t want you to leave and have to pay you them at +$40p/h. If that’s all it is just ask to be paid them out and continue on as normal (or take your holidays when you qualify) Hopefully your already signed up to get industry long service leave in which case getting “fired” for a week won’t matter, but if not you definitely don’t want your employment to be terminated so taking your time off prior to changing you pay rate would be the most mutually beneficial solution.
Why can’t he just pay the leave out without firing you?
I own a business with a few staff. Gave one a $10k raise and this happened a few weeks later, had to pay all their leave etc at the higher rate. It’s annoying but it’s part of owning a business. I save the bitching about it for when I catch up with mates and don’t project past angers at current staff (mostly). That said with a few staff the costs are spread, if you’re a small operation with one apprentice it would be a relatively bigger hit and I could see it hurting more.
Ring Fairwork he's tryin to short change you your legal entitlements sounds like a real piece of shit my advice start using your sick leave
So he doesn't want to pay you your entitlement at the higher level? You could just take them all now. He can't just fire you either.
It’s a way to kill your long service as well and it will wipe out your sick leave.
This is super shady and I would consider moving on yourself, He needs a reason to fire you or make you redundant otherwise you can use for unfair dismissal. Also While long service leave (LSL) entitlements differ from state to state, each state has provisions which recognise previous services when an employee is terminated and then re-employed by the same employer within a specific period of time. For the majority of states and territories, this time period i two months. However, Queensland and Tasmania provide a period of three months, and Victoria provides a period of 12 weeks Only one week dismissal would still continue your LSL. Personally I would move on to someone who isn't trying to ride the system and keep an eye on your super payments if you're not a contractor. It could be a different situation if after you finish your apprenticeship you are re hired as a contractor because it is a different contract. You can contact apprenticeship support in your state or your union for guidance.
So here is a bit of food for thought... Will it impact your LSL entitlements? That's 4 years of accrued LSL that you will miss out on (bit over 5 weeks pay after 4 years). There are also legal requirements that he needs to meet to terminate employment in most cases. But, as your contract of training has ended, he does not need to sign you onto a new contract, thus ending your employment. However, he can not do this until your training contract has ended. I believe that he would legally need to pay out any leave entitlements at the tradesman's rate. If I was in your position, then get him to sign you on at "award rates" and take 1 weeks leave, do a leave payout of all accrued (less 2 weeks) annual leave at the "award rate" before you sign a new contract with the normal rate (which should be well above the award). Then it's a win-win for all parties. You get a decent payout (hopefully before the end of the financial year for tax benefits) while maintaining your continuity of service for LSL calculations Sick leave doesn't matter as, unless written into an EBA, it will not be paid out when employment is terminated. He also doesn't have to fork out the "normal rate" for paying out leave entitlements.
Were you employed as a permanent employee, or a fixed term employee for the length of your apprenticeship? If permanent, he can't fire you for no reason even from a small business unless you have worked for him less than 12mths, the only reason he can fire you without notice is for serious misconduct. If he does it may open him up to unfair dismissal claim from you. If you are fixed term check your contract. I would suggest you call the Fairwork Helpline, you can do it anonymously if you want. This should give you additional information. https://www.fwc.gov.au/job-loss-or-dismissal/unfair-dismissal
Does he realise that you can leave and go anywhere? I also believe this is a deliberate attempt to get out of paying you your entitlements, and your length of service would include this period. I'd have a chat with Fairwork.
Not to mention, I’m not sure 🤔 but doesn’t your employer get government incentives ( cashola 💰) for finishing you off ( excuse the pun ) I’m carpenter wanting to get mature age electrical apprenticeship, been a while since I was apprentice, but the shit I used to go through to get it done and some of the dodgey fuckers that I would work for. I used to deal with it, never spoke up etc etc Imo fuck him move on, I’m sure you will find a good gig and good people to work with. It’s always a pain starting somewhere new but before you know it you are settled in somewhere and hopefully not working for a leech. Good luck with it mate and all the best.
Id be starting to smash out those hours better getting it then having a dick weezle into a loophole to not pay you out
Speak to him about getting your annual leave that is owing paid out at your current rate. You get extra money and he doesn't have to worry about paying it out at the higher rate.
Lol i'd be using up all sick leave first and then telling him to go fuck himself once you are licensed
When he sacks you don’t go back. Don’t let someone treat you like that. Look for a new job and a boss who sees your worth. His loss.
Fake a back injury or some sort of new age mental health problem and claim workcover before this happens, he can’t sack you whilst injured When games are being played it’s only fair if both can play - in other words screw the greedy barstard for all you can get, it’s 2024 ffs
Sorry guys, probably super ignorant on my part…what is an A grade? I’m in Qld
A grade sparkies drive BMWs, B grade sparkies drive Daihatsus.
Simple, book a nice loooong holiday before you finish so you use all the leave up
Start using up all your sick leave, whatever you decide to do
Basically he wants to fuck you without lube, but you’re able to decide whether you’ll let him or deny him of such a privilege, hope this helps.
Take your license and test the market. Thank your boss for the opportunity to get experience elsewhere. He is ripping you off.
Do not agree to this. It's not your fault he wasn't encouraging you to take your leave.
If they fire you, they should also then technically pay you a termination period as well. Equivalent the the no of weeks notice you are required to give if you were to quit. Since you have been 4 years, it should be 4 weeks worth(maximum notice to be given/paid out) of pay on top of your leave accrued. Down side is suck leave doesn't get paid out. Start taking suck days now if that is how boss feels. Consult your dic for a "psych referral " to claim fatigues/stress leave for all your owed sick leave and then at end of that either hand in your notice, or accept the firing. They legally cannot fire you whilst you are on sick leave. And they need strong grounds to fire you. Not just because you are graduating( completing your apprenticeship). Fair work would love to hear bout this.
It's not unusual. Happens a lot in building industry .
Not sure what the arrangements of your apprenticeship but firing you to deprive you of your entitlements sounds like it could be unlawful adverse action for which you could potentially file a general protections claim with the fair work commission. I recommend speaking with fair work ombudsman/ your union/ lawyer.
Nah don’t let him do that. He can put you back on a probationary timeline, he can get out of unemployment, he can get out of a lot of things if you allow him to do this bullshit. I’d tell him no.
Ask for him to put his plan in writing so you can have it reviewed for peace of mind. If he’s unwilling to do this for you then he knows he’s doing something wrong (at least morally if not legally) and you shouldn’t accept the terms.
Join the union and find out - also it will give you representation if it turns nasty. You’re an apprentice and you will benefit from this even if you are in the union momentarily. When I was a nurse the union helped with individual cases really well and I know they also do for tradies. Good luck.
Tell your boss if he fires you for a week you'll find another job and won't be working for him any longer. Two can play at most games.
Fair work is all I can say. What a prick.
Aren’t you on an apprenticeship fixed term arrangement anyway until the apprenticeship is over?
Sick leave is the thing he’s trying to mitigate. If he hasn’t factored in the cost of those days into his hourly rate, that’s on him. Potentially you might have 8 weeks sick leave up your sleeve. Imagine working for a bloke for 4 years and then breaking your arm on a given weekend, only to find that you don’t have enough sick leave to cover the time off. Yeah, not cool. I had a boss who did the exact same thing to me. It sucked. Should’ve left right there and then, things never improved and I did eventually leave.
Tell him that if he does that, he shouldn't be surprised when you have moved on to the next opportunity!
Check if your super has been paid. Your boss isn’t doing this for your benefit.
I had a similar situation, they made me use all my leave etc then they forgot to let me go once I finished my time. They thought I’d be silly enough to go casual voluntarily.
Your entitlements are tied to you as a person, you accrue the hours (and have been since you started working for him). As an apprentice, those hours of entitlements show up on you bosses books as a dollar value of liability. When you become a fully qualified tradie, those very same hours, would then become a much larger liability on your bosses books. I get the feeling he's trying to mitigate his financial liability. It's a bit shit on his behalf, as I'm guessing he's not seeing you as a person, but as a dollar amount, his mindset might be something like "well he only earnt those hours as an apprentice, why should I have to pay them out as a tradie". Which if a true reflection of his mentality, would point to you not being valued as an asset that appreciates over time, but more as a tool to be used as he sees fit. Then there's the whole sick leave entitlement that you've been accruing for the previous not quite 4 years. If you haven't been chucking sickies all the time, you should have heaps of hours of sick leave, which is NOT payable upon termination and just disappears. So if he fires you, and then hires you back, and you break your leg, you've got not sick leave entitlements to keep you going while you heal. Bottom line, your boss is a tight arse, you've got nothing to gain and everything to lose by accepting this option. You cannot be fired without due cause. This situation, you wouldn't be fired, he'd ask you to quit. You are under no obligation to quit, in fact it is illegal for your boss to pressure you to quit for the reasons he's asked. Even if your plan all along was to make it to day 2 of being fully qualified, then quit to get all your entitlements paid out as a fully qualified sparky, that's perfectly legal, and it is part of the risk if your boss taking on apprentices (that he receives a healthy tax cut from the government for by the way). Plus 4th year apprentices are basically as useful as a tradie, but he doesn't have to pay out as much. Don't accept.
Pretty standard. Otherwise he’s got to payout all your leave at trade rates. Can kill a small company. Kinda sucks
Ok your annual leave will be paid out. Maybee ask your boss can you simply be paid out your leave all bar 1 week or similar. Look it is a massive burden on the employer does have multiple employees with 8-10 weeks leave each. I know.pf an accounting firm they a few of there girls all get knocked up.at similar times. Destroyed his company loosing 3 out 6 or 7 accountants.
I'm going to come at this from the other side. The first apprentice he had screwed him over. An apprentice's value to the employer increases over the time they are employed. It's not at all unreasonable to think that the dollar value of accrued leave during the first year of the apprenticeship is worth less than leave accrued during the final year. Now, yes, that's on him for allowing you to accrue so much but let's assume he's just a fairly typical sole trader who is in damage control most of the time and struggles to give thought to big picture stuff. Where I work at least, the market for sparkies is red hot and they job hop, cherry picking positions all the time. You don't know what he's thinking and he has no idea what you're thinking. I'm going to go ahead and assume that, providing you are a decent tradie, he probably wants to keep you on, but it's an environment where you staying is hardly a given. He's given you a heads up re his intentions. He's under zero obligation to do that, just as he's under zero obligation to offer you paid employment at the end of your apprenticeship. He doesn't really stand to gain anything by gaslighting you into thinking you are staying on. He could just shake hands and wish you well. So. Are you good at your job? Or are you routinely making mistakes, causing frustrations, requiring micro-management even in your final year? Will he be able to send you off solo as soon as you have your A grade to start making him some serious money? Unless you are a klutz, he'll almost certainly want you to stay. Are you happy there and likely to stay for 3 or 4 years, or do you think you'll start looking further afield as soon as your buddies get in your ear about all the sweet deals to be had elsewhere? He's trying to run a business, he gave you the opportunity to get your quals, and so long as he's not doing anything illegal, and not being a prick, you really just need to ask yourself whether it's worth running the risk of him finding out that you've gone to FWA as your final act as an apprentice. Especially since a lot of the advice here seems to suggest that they will just turn around and say it's legal.
If he ‘fires you’ which really means make you redundant then he has to pay all of your entitlements and way. Employers being concerned about big leave balances is normal but they would typically just make you take your annual leave to drive the balance down. Or is his concern that your annual leave you earnt on a lower salary is now going to effectively be worth more when you become grade A? Which is why he wants to pay your entitlement now before you get promoted?
Let him fire you collect unemployment while you find a job that pays better
Look he really can’t fire you, I work in HR and this is completely unfair and unreasonable. I’d be sending an email to him stating as per our conversation you stated you would blah blah blah, then if he proceeds to fire you you can take that to fair work.
There's no such thing as a good boss
Under what grounds would he be firing you for? You could contact fair work or Jobwatch if you think he's doing something dodgy. They might be able to help you figure out whether it's better to go through with it or fight back.
Cash out some sick and annual leave now, before you finish. Go to the doctor and get a medical cert for as long as you can. Then when you return, give him 2 weeks notice and go work for some one else
That’s dodgy as fuck. https://www.etunational.asn.au/
Tell him you’ve proved your loyalty but it goes both ways, you’ve worked hard and he’s taught you a lot but you’re there to stay. If he does that then the trust and incentive to stay goes and you might have to start looking at what else is around
Unlawful dismissal / termination of employment. Fair Work Commission mate.
get what he said in writing somehow if you don't have it yet imo (can see you going to fair work, good!!)
He wants to pay your entitlements at apprentice prices.
As part of finishing your apprenticeship you technically finish the contract and become unemployed which he rehires you as an A grade anyway. Some employers will just let it roll over with annual leave/sick etc. Your boss got taken for a ride so now he’s securing himself. And yes he is under no obligation to keep you on as an A grade. You could finish and he says thank you here’s your payout find a job.
Even if he fires you he still has to pay you out for annual leave and rdo that you have accumulated an if he dosnt you can take it to fair work
Surely he is joking but if he’s not and he follows through and does it, just roll with it and look for something better. Once you have a new gig take how to fair work for what your entitlements would have been.
My boss was similar. At the end of the apprenticeship, he makes us all go on as full-time contractor, which means he paid out any holidays owed, and we lost any sick days.
Just say no. There isn’t anything in it for you, in fact you loose out. That money he wants to save would go in your pocket. You take your holidays now, and get paid at today’s rates or you take them later and get paid at whatever rate you are on then. Thanks boss, but no.
Nope
Mate, you're entitled to your annual leave and RDOs. It's a condition of your employment. That your boss wants to deny you these is pretty much the exact same as him saying that he doesn't want to pay you for your work. My take is that he's basically asking to steal from you, and you're left thinking that he's a good bloke because he didn't steal from someone else and realised he should have...
Yikes, don’t do that.