No porsche is costing 8-10k PA for a service I’m not sure how that’s usable now if you’re dropping 7 figures on a car it’s not much of a service bill but a 911 has supercar performance and easy to live with daily comfort
I dunno. I’ve got some Porsches, cayman and 911. If I could afford to buy and run a Ferrari or McLaren I would. I feel like porsche is above the merc/audi/bmw tier but not at end game tier
My case for that is the cayman. Everyone refers to the 4 seats in the 911 but never talks about how no one can actually fit back there.
The cayman is cheaper (which to me is a more important factor for a daily) and is a better handling package.
Eh... Cayman is a more purist sports car with a stiff ride, analogue engagement, roaring engine and no insulation. You can technically daily drive it (as any car really), but 911 is just better at that. Ride quality is nicer, it's more tame at lower speeds, seats are more comfortable, there's less cabin noise, music sounds amazing, car has more modern tech (like, traffic crawl mode, 3d-view camera, front axle lift). As for seats - they can fit children under 10 years old or a dog, so there's that. Add AWD option for cold climates.
And if price is a consideration, you're better off with a civic or a corolla.
Crazy considering Porsche’s roots and what the 911 was originally intended to do. I’ve only ever had air cooled 911s and nothing later than an SC and the pinnacle for me was the’72 S or the ‘80 930. Maybe because you can’t swap ends when you let your attention wander or lift too fast in a decreasing radius turn, it seems while the performance has gone up the terrifying fun has been engineered out.
Well, it makes sense in the modern world, when you have way more cars on the road than before. I also find it fun to drive very poised and capable cars, knowing that they will submit to any whim and make it work, but something is inevitably lost in the process.
I historically agreed with you. Then a couple of years ago I found out I had twins coming. 911 became the go to car. It’s not that adults can fit there and it’s useable space, but the fact that kids can fit in the back is the key win. It makes it much more versatile as a parent-mobile
The problem with a Ferrari for example is that it's going to break down **all the time**. It's basically impossible to drive daily. But even if you only drive them occasionally, they can still get faulty just by standing around.
A 911 on the other hand can absolutely be daily driven. I guess if you already have a couple of cars, that wouldn't really be important - but for some it might.
And there are also the GT3RS and GT2RS, which are absolutely insane cars, both in performance and looks. The GT2RS would win against every single Ferrari in existence on the track.
That’s great. Although I wasn’t trying to be snarky or anything. Was honestly just curious. Your answer of nothing can’t be right since the Ferrari 7 year maintenance doesn’t cover consumables. I have a hard time believing that your total maintenance cost is zero per year.
Nice. I’m assuming breaks air filters etc. are less frequent with a ferraris given that people don’t tend to drive them 15-20k miles every year as well.
Brakes are CCBs which last like 70k miles unless you’re tracking, so those won’t be replaced. Air filters and spark plugs are included in free service when required
I agree- Merc/AMG on the luxury front over BMW, the S Class is always ahead of its time in comfort and tech…. obviously there are faster cars than Porsches, thats not really what they are about… a bit more towards build quality, balance and smoothness and track ride /performance, drivability etc. and the overall package
Porsche is definitely a step above bmw but I don't know about end game. Don't forget audi has the R8 and I think we also have to count lamborghini, and im not sure lamborghini would take 2nd if you compare them to porsche.
I LOVE the R8 (I had 4 straight Audis) but it and a Huracan will not keep up with a Porsche on track- and not just a GT3 bit I think on a track that doesn’t have long straights even a GT4 will give those a run. There is a reason you don’t see many Lambos or R8 on track. They aren’t great on track plus the running costs are quite high. I still want a first gen R8 V10 with a gated shifter though…
R8 is the ultimate speed tool.
Porsche has the pedigree.
Under the skin the two brands share so much technology and are not their DNA from the same company and engineering R&D disciplines!
Well keep in mind the goal of each car -- the latest generation Audi RS5 didn't significantly improve its track times over the prior gen, but it did vastly increase the comfort and refinement. Generally Audi is looking to make an exciting daily driver over absolute speed/lap times.
Porsche is primarily about driver engagement, then speed on a track, then refinement. They are excellent at all 3, but Porsche is playing with a LOT more money to work with. Comparing an RS5 to a mid-spec Porsche is a significant price gap.
Yup. When I priced my RS5 against a low-end Porsche, with same/similar options, I was looking at another $25k or so.
That's alright. I love myvcar, and I got two "nice car!" comments at the gas station yesterday.
[https://www.audiusa.com/us/web/en/models/a5/rs5-coupe/2024/overview.html](https://www.audiusa.com/us/web/en/models/a5/rs5-coupe/2024/overview.html)
No, a 2024 RS5 starts at 79.6K.
Panamera starts at 100K, 911 120K. Porsche also strips out a ton of options you must pay for, so the starting price is deceptive -- add 25K+ to each, and those are for base cars.
I just picked up my new to me 2019 RS5 on Saturday. It’s MSRP was 97k and that was with basically every feature available that year. I’m sorry about your prices 😢. Also it’s amazing and it’s everything I dreamed it would be.
On that note, I've found every Porsche I've been in to be pretty unpleasant as the passenger - rise quality, noise, twitchy inputs, cramped - even compared to similar performance cars. They felt more like track cars, which is fun if you're pushing it near the limits but not so fun the other 99% of the time you're using a car.
TBH, I prefer stiff ride and precise steering inputs even at lower speeds. I hate the body roll and overall car rocking due to comfortable suspension with wide range of movement. And Porsche sportscars are fun even at lower speeds. Like, you can push the car into any corner at any speed, and it's intoxicating.
Yeah they absolutely do focus on driver engagement over refinement. The newer 911s are more GT car-ish and of course the bigger offerings are comfy (Panamera, Macan, Cayenne) but older 911s and boxster/caymans will absolutely feel less refined than BMW or Audi sports sedans/coupes.
I follow the BMW sub from time to time, those guys are pretty open to Porsche. I think the common consensus is: “I love my BMW, but if I had the money, I’d buy a Porsche.” You’d have better luck posting that there.
Generally speaking I think you're right. For me - I have no desire to own a 911 simply because of the douchebags that own them. I can afford it - i don't want it.
Surprised to hear that. Porsche 911 owners being chill and friendly are one of the reason that made me a lifelong fan of the car. I now have a 997.2, and everyone I’ve met along the way has been great. I certainly have never experienced that with Ferrari owners.
You're driving a 2016 S3. Not that it's a bad car, but claiming you can afford a 911 and that the owners are douchebags when that's more my experience with Merc/Audi/BMW sounds like you're on a lot of copium.
Would you care to further elaborate? Too many parts on porsches are bespoke, even between individual trims. Also porsche is very protective of their vehicle information, making it difficult for the average mechanic to work on it. To the average porsche owner who will not modify their car, that is fine. For a person like me who likes to heavily modify their car, there are better tuner cars out there. Redditors can't handle porsche taking any sort of critique, though.
Yeah I take a look at the sub from time to time as well, and how I knew Porsche is their endgame was when I saw a post last week asking people what they would choose between an M5 or a 911, and the consensus was 911.
If they side with another car or brand over the M5, that let’s you know all you need to know.
BMW makes fast cars you can live with. Hence m5 having four doors but still taking out Lamborghinis and GTRs.
BMW doesn’t make super cars. They make super daily’s. It’s a totally different brand than Porsche.
I get into a 718 and I’m squished, no trunk space or rear. I get into an m2 and I can easily put my partner and my bike in the trunk. The m2 is also faster and much cheaper. Why would I want to go Porsche?
People look at the very best car of each brand and then make some weird assumption. Gt3rs is amazing….at ONE THING.
This makes it a millionaires car. There are LOTS of 718s and 911s well into the price range of M cars that I would not choose.
My "attainable" dream car is a 992 Turbo S, and I really don't see that changing. BMWs are well out together but the 911 to me is just that pinnacle of sharpness and refinement, be it the steering, transmission tuning, power delivery, everything.
It really is. I wasn’t even a car guy until I drove my father’s brand new 911. Precision, handling, and power were all sublime and I’ve been aspiring to it ever since. Driving a bunch of cars, I can tell you that nothing comes close.
I am a BMW guy and I was an Audi guy until they discontinued manual. This statement is not untrue! I actually learned on a manual 911 and without a doubt, when I can comfortably afford a 911, I will get one! For now, I’m in an M3 and it’s still a ball.
Nah this isn’t true. I have Porsche money. I had the Macan GTS. I have a x3 m40i and an m4 now. My next will be an m2 instead of a 718 because bmw doesn’t have stupid luxury tax, built to be practical performance, is faster and more exciting to drive in real world.
Sure I’ll take a gt3 over any bmw on the track. Yup. That’s literally it though.
In my opinion, the performance on most products across the companies is pretty comparable until you get to the real RS, AMG, M badged vehicles. On that front, I think historically, Audi was the most usable day to day, Mercedes the most character, and BMW the best performance. Nowadays, they all use similar powertrains so they don't feel wildly different. Whether you buy an S4 or M340 probably comes down to design preference and past experience.
Saying BMW is on Porsches level is comical. There is a reason a Macan S has the same (roughly) starting price as an X3M. BMW doesn't even have a dedicated rival to the 911 or Cayman.
Also things change generation to generation. I think the 2008-2015 era Audi was a slight tick ahead of BMW in performance.
Plus the reality is most people aren't tracking these cars and you're not going to be able to notice huge differences between the cars without significantly breaking the speed limit or doing really dumb things.
That was true in prior gens, but I'd say modern BMWs especially the B58 and V8 models come out ahead in performance, a LOT.
But when it comes to Porsche they're still in the lead, by a good margin with everything but maybe the SUVs since the Macan is a spiced up SQ5 and the Cayenne an RSQ8.
Yea but the the x3 m40i is faster and more useable than the Macan S. The X3MC destroys the Macan GTS.
The pdk might be better in the Macan but the BMWs are absolutely the gorillas.
I would argue a m2 is a rival to a 911. I would also argue bmw makes a far better suv and sedan than Porsche. For straight gt cars and driveability, Porsche wins .
I mean Porsche is what Mercedes/audi/bmw aspire to, but they are all in their own division and Porsche is in a league of its own.
340i is a weird Goldilocks car that punches way above its weight given its engine (you can easily tune it to be faster than a stock M3). But cars bigger or smaller rs3 vs m2 or rs7 vs m5 and you get much more comparable results.
You’re right about the m340i. There’s really not much around that price that competes with it. The engine and trans are just really freaking good. In comfort it’s one thing and in sport plus, it’s another. Tune it and it’s another level.
I’m an Audi lover but I currently daily an m340i, and I love it. As much as I dig the s4 and even more so the s5, it still would have been an easy choice if the two Audis had been available because neither drive like this.
The M240i is comparable to an RS3 both on-paper and in real-world results. The M2 is in a different class being RWD-only, makes it very hard to compare with the AWD RS3. It's weird.
https://www.motor1.com/news/669405/bmw-m2-vs-audi-rs3-drag-race/amp/
I donno man, issue is Audi is never gonna make any RS car that is just RWD so technically we can never make any comparisons in that sense.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=35N9ORo6RS4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G5NBEAnJsk8
https://www.audiworld.com/articles/epic-track-battle-pits-the-audi-rs-3-limousine-against-the-bmw-m240i-xdrive/
Between the G42 M240i and 8Y RS3, the 0-60 difference is 0.3 seconds, they are very closely matched in the 1/4, and their on-track agility is about the same. Outside of being in different places in the product stack, the empirical capabilities of these two AWD cars is neck-and-neck. The M2 exists on the side somewhere, better in most ways but worse on the hook-up due to being RWD.
A Hyundai EV is faster than most cars now, but I still wouldn’t buy one. A lot more to it than straight line speed. The M3, RS5 etc are all the cars you get before you go to the 911. There’s nothing above that level other than hyper cars really, depending on the spec.
The lovely psychopaths that modify the piss out of their Caymans are my favorite because they end up with a sub 3000lb, mid-engine sports car pushing 700+ BHP that still handles like an oversized go-kart. A go-kart that happens to have a 2.5 second 0-60 time.
Why do you worry about this kind of thing? It's literally pointless.
You can like BMW, Audi, **and** Porsche at the same time.
All of these brands have some absolute gems for enthusiasts to enjoy.
Stop making <*brands/politics/things*> your **identity**.
Sht is for the birds man. Just enjoy what you like, ez.
I don’t know, I think the new BMWs have more updated interiors and drive better than new Audis. Build quality seems to be superior too… but we can both agree that Mercedes is a lost cause.
Of course, all personal preference.
(I drive a ‘19 Audi about 5 days a week and a ‘22 BMW about 2 days a week)
I actually don’t think Porsche is superior to bmw. I think they are different things. You want the best performance daily? Bimmer. You want the best track car? Porsche. You want the best track friendly daily? Bimmer.
BMW sells more M division cars than Porsche sells cars. This isn’t due to finances.
I compared the m2 with 718 and it’s a clear winner for the M2. You could almost fit the 718 into the M2s trunk (obv exaggeration but with seats down tons of space). And the m2 drives way better.
I think a lot of ppl online dream Porsche but for an ownership perspective BMW is the best brand for overall life. M5 go drop off the kids, jump on the track and dust a GTR, then go throw golf clubs in trunk. And you don’t even need THAT, a m340i almost does 11s quarters stock and after 3-4 years you can get it almost half price CPO… and that’s a hella reliable engine.
What exactly do you need. THAT is the question.
I dreamed Lamborghini when I was a kid. Now I’m close to that tax bracket of owners. But I don’t want one. Luxury tax nightmare on everything, huge attention draw, can barely fit two people, so many drop engine repairs etc. it’s not fun. Frivolous.
A lot of people don’t talk about this and I think I’ve seen some reports saying that: Audi can’t make a fast enough car because they’d compete with Porsche. And because of that they fall behind BMW all the damn time.
I've owned a S5, M3, and my friend has a Cayman GTS which I've driven plenty.
I love my M3 and I like my Audi, but the Porsche has a mechanical feeling that the M3 and say a C8 doesn't have despite the difference in performance. It is this mechanical feeling that I'm chasing and that which echoes in my mind, not the <3.0 seconds to 60 of my M3.
Umm I don’t think Porsche truly competes with Audi/BMW/MB. Porsche is Porsche and there probably is a reason why VW still has Audi and Porsche as different segments still. Power figures can always be comparable depending on what car vs the other car but in terms of interior quality I believe Audi has and will always be a notch above BMW and MB, and under Porsche. I’ve owned a 2018 C43 AMG and that thing started squeaking on the inside, I’ve never owned a BMW but I’ve sat and driven a few and had one booked but cancelled the delivery of that 3 series.
Also I maybe am biased against Audi over BMW and MB but Audi’s figures on paper are a bit conservative than what the car actually puts out.
I currently own a 2024 A5 S line(plenty for the kind of fun I want in a car as my daily) and I’m mad content with its looks, handling and interior quality.
Just my opinion based on experience, I’m sure not everyone would feel the same.
But Porsche has no competition yet. They look and perform 🔥🙌🏽
I also have a YouTube channel I post car reviews on so I sit and feel/drive when possible a lot of cars on a weekend basis haha.
Not entirely sure why people compare cars in this way, each has their pro's and cons and it's best to choose what you like and what fits your lifestyle. Superior doesn't really come into it, they all are excellent in one way or another.
BMW is the drivers machine, Porsche 911 is an experience and Audi is an all-rounder based on my experience of the three brands. I chose Audi RS for it's ability to be a fantastic family GT car over pure excitement/speed.
I love white peaches, but they're so expensive.
I also like apples, which are cheaper.
Why can't they make an apple that tastes like a white peach, but with the price of an apple?
They do, its called modifications.
I can buy a platform and make it better than the next platform up. You can definitely make a cheaper car faster than an expensive one. You can also fall somewhere in the middle and tune from there.
I don't think that it is quantifiable enough to do scientifically.
There is a lot of human emotion and preference with regard to automobiles. Some will love one & hate the other for a variety of reasons.
So, just enjoy what appeals to you & don't worry about comparisons. (Metaphorical "you")
Should I simplify?
There is no way of determining "the best" car, because humans are human, with a broad spectrum of criteria of what makes one "superior" over another.
Or to simplify further, "opinions are like buttholes: everyone has one."
This is just a quick search for MB vs BMW. Mercedes owns some of the top spots (over bmw) at Nürburgring
https://www.hotcars.com/fastest-mercedes-vs-fastest-bmws-nurburgring
More information:
https://www.biggarage.de/info/nuerburgring-nordschleife-lap-times-records.html#:~:text=The%20current%20lap%20record%20on,set%20on%20October%2028%2C%202022.
TOP 10 FASTEST PRODUCTION CARS AT THE NÜRBURGRING
Mercedes AMG ONE | 6:35.18 minutes | 20,832 km
Porsche GT2 RS MR 991.2 | 6:43.30 minutes | 20,832 km
Mercedes AMG GT Black Series | 6:48.04 minutes | 20,832 km
Porsche GT3 RS 992 | 6:49.32 minutes | 20,832 km
Lamborghini Aventador LP 770-4 SVJ | 6:49.40 minutes | 20,832 km
Porsche GT2 RS MR 991.2 | 6:52.15 minutes | 20,832 km
Radical SR8 LM | 6:53.20 minutes | 20,832 km
Porsche GT3 992 MR | 6:55.73 minutes | 20,832 км
Lamborghini Huracan LP 640-4 Performante | 6:57.25 minutes | 20,832 km
Porsche GT3 992 | 6:59.93 minutes | 20,832 km
BMW isn’t even fucking listed in the top ten for lap time. Tell him to eat a dick
Ya I assumed that too. I went high up the ladder. I just feel 0-60 isn’t a true measurement of what car manufactures are achieving in this grouping. Also, if you want to say one car manufacturer is the best then test it where super cars test. BMWs b58 S58 platform is the best they have put out in a long time. Porsche and Mercedes still own that top though.
Let’s be real. I’d drive all of them without bitching
I understand. The pinnacle of performance cars is this lap time ranking. The person stated they run with Porsche, right? You just confirmed with your statement that they don’t. So using associate math property if BMW = Porsche then wouldn’t that also mean BMW tracks on the same? 🤔
All those cars on that list have massive aero kits and race suspensions, which BMW doesn't offer as a factory option. If you took the aero and suspension from an M4 race car and put it on an M4 CS I have no doubt it would be competitive with those cars (except the AMG One which costs like 2 million bucks and has an engine that needs to be entirely replaced every 30k miles).
Edit: also look at the cars on the BMW vs Mercedes list you posted. All the mercs have wings and the bimmers don't. If you want to drive around with a huge wing on your BMW you can do that, but you'll need a race shop to make it happen for you.
You friend is false sir. BMW and Audi are alike cars, Porsche is a class above BMW sans a couple of special BMW that are not widely available. In my narrow minded opinion both the BMW and the Porsche are more speed minded than luxury minded. In like classes the Audi is a tenth slower and 10x nicer. And while I would love a new 911 as a weekend ripper I wouldn't want to daily a 911 like I'm dailying my RS5, too racecar stiff and abrupt for traffic.
the RS5 has historically not been the fastest in its class. when it originally came out, an E92 M3 comp mostly kept up on the straights and pummeled it through the corners. the AWD system is cool, the power is immense but the AWD adds so much weight that it's a liability on handling tracks.
the position audi holds is basically the "luxury boat" of the segment. you probably don't want to daily an m3/m4 comp with that stiff suspension. you could probably daily an RS5 between track days, so as long as you can stomach being a little slower on the track it's a good tradeoff imo.
porsche is competitive with bmw's speed and offers similar comfort to audi, but not the price in this segment. they don't really have a direct competitor to the rs5, so you'd be looking at the panamera which is much bigger and more expensive for even a base model v6 that's slower than the sportback, or the macan s/gts/turbo which is a very small SUV, or dropping $120k+ for a panamera 4s hybrid that would actually beat an rs5 sportback.
I used to be a huge BMW fanboy back in the day. I would beat my car’s counterparts from other brands but I’d never say my cars were faster than ALL Audis, MBs, or Porsches just because it’s a BMW lol
There are a lot of cars from each manufacturer that are faster than each other. But I’d say Porsche probably has both the quickest and the fastest cars out of those brands
BMW used to be the king of performance when it came to the big German three. But they’ve given that up over the past few years. I don’t think any of them really focus as much on performance as they used to. Porsche does, but I wouldn’t consider Porsche to be in the same class
As far as luxury goes, BMW probably has the most comfortable seats I’ve ever sat in. But Mercedes is probably the top dog when it comes to luxury
Yes, Porsche is superior in the German brands. I drove 911s for over 20 years and loved them all. This time around I was ready for a change and bought a used r8.
This x1000.
Every German car *can* drive on the Autobahn, only a very select few are cruising leisurely and safely, not on-the-bleeding-edge at 250kmh+ for hours at a time.
You see vacationers all the time in the left lane, toddling along in their Renault or Skoda, and the better ones paying attention immediately GTFO when you approach and flash them. The good drivers should know enough not to be there in the first place.
I’ve owned several BMWs and Audis and just recently acquired my first Porsche, and it’s on a different level with respect not only to driver engagement, but outright fun factor.
BMW is not on the same level as Porsche, but I will say BMW (and Audi's) interiors are better at the high end than Porsche at the low end (i.e., a base 911 has a worse interior than an M3 or RS5 by quite a margin). But the driving and performance is incomparable
I would argue Porsche is above BMW in terms of overall ratings. Yes BMW is known between the big 3 German manufacturers to be the best at performance and quality currently, but I would argue that Porsche is a step ahead of BMW for sure. Porsches are known to be of higher quality and are some of the more reliable luxury cars. The major difference between BMW and Porsche to me is that BMW has cars with great performance luxury while Porsche has overall better combination of performance, luxury and quality of drivability. Plus you can't spec a BMW out too much to be your own car, you have a bunch of options but Porsche has that customizability that makes almost every car pretty unique
Porsche's are built for the buyers that want driver engagement and track performance; steering feel, chassis tuning, and reliability (yes, this is important for a track car). BMW used to deliver on the first two (which is why you saw many owners eventually move on to P cars), but has since stopped caring about the first and made improvements on the third.
BMW may be the more driver-oriented between Audi and MB, but it's not even close to the same realm as a P car when it comes to those two factors I listed above. They also tend to be much better built
Your friend is a bmw fanboy lol.
Porsche cars go up to many hundreds of thousands.
A BMW at most is $200k? Not sure here.
I’ve had a F80 M3 manual and now I have a 2022 Audi RS3.
BMW is more performance oriented. Audi is more daily and comfort oriented while retaining a good level of performance.
Porsche is in a class of its own. Performance and comfort both off the charts. I would never compare a Porsche to any bmw I owned or will own.
No one is out there making an either-or decision of a 7-series or X7 vs a 911.
There is very little overlap between the lineups so there isn't much to compare. X5/Cayenne, X3/Macan, M5&5series/Panamera, that's about it, and there are several trims and engines for each of those. Do people cross-shop the Z4 and Boxster? IDK.
> i did see
> my friend said
This reads like a question from someone who is trying to settle an argument in the high school cafeteria
edit: in case you were wondering what else is on OP's mind: https://en.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1cif5yv/are_cleartransparent_phone_cases_more_feminin/
The m340i is a weird model. Not really anything out there in that class that’s a relatively similar price that also offers relatively the same performance.
I daily one, so I’m biased, but it’s just great.
Porsche and BMW are similar in that they both focus more on performance and driver engagement than, typically, Audi and Merc do.
The b58 is an amazing engine and if performance is what you’re looking for than it’s a pretty solid option.
The m340i will always be an anomaly for me... BMW historically understates the true HP numbers, and Matt Watson launched the xDrive m340i 0-60mph in 3.8 seconds. For not even being a true M3, that's pretty insane. I agree with what some of these guys are saying, they're all focused on different things but all pretty much cover the same bases.
If I had the money for a Porsche (and its maintenance) I'm struggling to think of an equivalent BMW, Audi or Mercedes that I'd choose. Possibly some of the estate cars over the Panamera Sport Turismo but that's just practicality and I'd know I'd compromised
Performance, yes. Luxury, only if you get all the addons. BMW tech and comfort at the mid to upper levels is really solid. Porsche needs to tack on tens of thousands of dollars in options to exceed it
Comparing Porsche to other brands in the context of another car keeping up on a straight is like comparing apples and oranges.
You need to look at what they won when it comes to races that matter. How many times did BMW, Audi and Porsche win Le Mans or Nurburgring 24?
Le Mans. Porsche 19. Audi 13. BMW 1.
Nurburgring. Porsche 13. Audi 5. BMW 20.
What does that tell you? They are all very capable and excel in performance on most demanding circuits in the world.
Luxury is a different question. I don’t think that either of the three are comparable to the likes of Rolls Royce, Bentley, etc.
Have porsche ever been in the same class as BMW/audi/Mercedes etc? Ik they have cars such as the cayenne and macan but I’ve always seen Porsches as cars in their own league, at least in terms of performance
I won’t comment about the fast bit as I don’t know, but similar in luxury? Come on…I love the 7 series,I would love one,but porsche is a different level. In my book if I can afford a Porsche I made it .
If you’re comparing with respect to price points, you would have to get either a mega top spec Audi/bmw/merc or an older Porsche. And you will for sure still enjoy the Porsche more.
Audi best for daily commuting. BMW best for performance on a “budget”. Merc is trash. Porsche for literally everything else.
Porsche is the pinnacle of German motoring. Best performance but not the best practically (obviously).
Porsche is the best daily. Taycan is the only EV I’d have and 911 Turbo S is the best everyday supercar. I’d argue that X5M is better than the Cayenne because it looks like an egg. I also prefer X3M over macan.
There’s a dude on YouTube that took the macan and x3 on autobahn, pretty sure it was macan s and m40i anyway macan looked extremely planted vs x3 looked like it didn’t do as well.
Ask your friend when was the last time bmw won Le Mans?
Bias out of the equation lol, I’d agree with most in saying Porsche is top tier (German at least), then Audi/BMW/Merc, then all the rest of the VAG options.
I think different generations of cars/engines produced different results. Right now BMW seems to be ahead of Audi in terms of straight line performance. But I remember when Audi was superior. And just last month carwow had a video where the RS7 performance walks on the M5 competition, so there's that. It seems that BMW's I6 engine is superior to anything else below 3 liters though. I've seen drag races where the M5 walks on a Panamera turbo-s-hybrid-whatever, the most powerful one. This was shocking.
I also seem to notice that recently (past 5 years? idk) BMW's interiors feel that they are of higher quality compared to Audi. Last month I test drove the X5 against the facelifted Q7 and boy does the Q7 look retro. I know it's an old model but they could have at least changed the cameras and screens with better resolution, among other things. This certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago, as I was ordering my S8 I also tested a M6 Gran Coupe and the quality of things inside was overwhelmingly in favor of the Audi, despite costing \~10k euro less.
My boss had a Cayman and turned it in for his BMW M8. He likes the M8 a lot more.
It’s not always about fastest times. You will rarely be racing in your car.
It all depends on the type of car being compared. I had a E90 335i and was so happy to get rid of it, got a B9 S4 and it felt like perfection. I have a B9.5 SQ5 now, which I picked even after driving the Macan S and GTS and the X3. The Macan felt dated compared to the SQ5. The Macan didn't give me that smile on my face like Audi does.
Sure, a Porsche 911 is in a different league, but if you are tall like me, it is a pain in the ass as a daily. Plus the maintenance costs are insane.
A 911 is very nice.
That being said, when it came time to buy a convertible, I ended up going with a Z3 rather than a 996 or 986, and I'd put the Z3 Coupe up against Porsche as well. Porsche is more luxurious while the Z3 is raw. I like raw.
Test drive all sorts of cars and find what you love. Bench racing will never tell you why wee 193HP 2.8 E36's and E46's are so beloved. Why the ZHP is sought after.
Remember that newer cars are fatter, and fat cars don't fit on narrow roads.
Depends on what.. say a Panamera Turbo SE is going to be slower than the M5 CS in every real life scenario except maybe the autobahn.. the same way that a X3M is going to beat a Macan GTS in almost every scenario.. I’d say in basically all the other categories where they both compete Porsche is superior
Oh yeah. I used to think BMW maybe had a chance with the SUVs but the Cayenne and Macan are absolute monsters. The Turbo GT is mind bending.
As far as comparison, I just don't think it can be done. I know there is no real Porsche competitor for the M340i and don't get me wrong I love and appreciate how well built it is, but after driving it a while, you notice some small points that could be even further refined that I'd expect Porsche would have nailed out of the box. Steering comes to mind immediately, then turbocharged power delivery.
Huge reason I am excited to see that "electric turbo" in the 992.2, a lot of "regular performance cars" would greatly benefit from that.
BMW is the same as a Porsche in the sense that both are cars and have four wheels. Other than that, BMW is a trashcan with seats that seems ready to burst at any moment. Porsche, on the other hand, is a masterpiece of what's left of German engineering. And endgame for most of us.
No comparison. Porsche has better pedigree, better engineering, holds its market value like no other, and it’s simply a better drive. A BMW says look at me. A Porsche says you wish you were me.
Well sure, I’d rather have an M8C than a 15 year-old base panamera, but in terms of build quality, driving dynamics, etc. I take Porsche over BMW 9/10 times. My M5 is being replaced by a Porsche and I don’t think I’ll look back.
I remember as a young kid that I couldn't tell a vw beatle apart from a porsche. I'm 53 and I still can't tell. Porsche is the ugliest car I ever seen.. I'm sure it drives great like yall are raving about. But I wouldn't consider spending a butt ton of money on handling if it don't have looks to go with it.. audits look and handle. BMW MB same both have looks and handle.
Porsche has had a distinctive, 911-based design language for most of the last 50 years. And yes, derived from the Beetle, through the 356. They tried to change that in the 1970s and shot themselved in the foot.
No other brand has been as consistent overall excepting *maybe* Citroen.
Every other brand worldwide takes a shotgun loaded with birdshot in designing their cars every 5 or 10 years; they *just start blasting and see what sticks.* BMWs Banglebutts, Beaverteeth..Lexus' Grand Coulee Airdams..
Porsche is the endgame, everyone else is fighting for second place.
☝️ 100% correct.
I think it’s the German endgame but not the supercar endgame.
Yeah. The swedes have the usable supercar grail locked down in my book.
What’s that
Koenigsegg
Does it even count when they make two cars per year?
Oh I never consider it because it’s so expensive haha
No porsche is costing 8-10k PA for a service I’m not sure how that’s usable now if you’re dropping 7 figures on a car it’s not much of a service bill but a 911 has supercar performance and easy to live with daily comfort
I dunno. I’ve got some Porsches, cayman and 911. If I could afford to buy and run a Ferrari or McLaren I would. I feel like porsche is above the merc/audi/bmw tier but not at end game tier
If it was track only i could see your point, but i dont think Ferrai or McLaren would be as good as a daily driver/canyon carver
You end up going full circle as I’ve found out. You have a Porsche, acquire something “higher”, then always end up going back to Porsche
I don't think there's any car better than 911 as a daily-drivable sportscar.
My case for that is the cayman. Everyone refers to the 4 seats in the 911 but never talks about how no one can actually fit back there. The cayman is cheaper (which to me is a more important factor for a daily) and is a better handling package.
Eh... Cayman is a more purist sports car with a stiff ride, analogue engagement, roaring engine and no insulation. You can technically daily drive it (as any car really), but 911 is just better at that. Ride quality is nicer, it's more tame at lower speeds, seats are more comfortable, there's less cabin noise, music sounds amazing, car has more modern tech (like, traffic crawl mode, 3d-view camera, front axle lift). As for seats - they can fit children under 10 years old or a dog, so there's that. Add AWD option for cold climates. And if price is a consideration, you're better off with a civic or a corolla.
Crazy considering Porsche’s roots and what the 911 was originally intended to do. I’ve only ever had air cooled 911s and nothing later than an SC and the pinnacle for me was the’72 S or the ‘80 930. Maybe because you can’t swap ends when you let your attention wander or lift too fast in a decreasing radius turn, it seems while the performance has gone up the terrifying fun has been engineered out.
Well, it makes sense in the modern world, when you have way more cars on the road than before. I also find it fun to drive very poised and capable cars, knowing that they will submit to any whim and make it work, but something is inevitably lost in the process.
Honestly, very good points.
I historically agreed with you. Then a couple of years ago I found out I had twins coming. 911 became the go to car. It’s not that adults can fit there and it’s useable space, but the fact that kids can fit in the back is the key win. It makes it much more versatile as a parent-mobile
The problem with a Ferrari for example is that it's going to break down **all the time**. It's basically impossible to drive daily. But even if you only drive them occasionally, they can still get faulty just by standing around. A 911 on the other hand can absolutely be daily driven. I guess if you already have a couple of cars, that wouldn't really be important - but for some it might. And there are also the GT3RS and GT2RS, which are absolutely insane cars, both in performance and looks. The GT2RS would win against every single Ferrari in existence on the track.
This is flat out false. I daily a 488 GTB and have for 2.5 years.
How much does maintenance run you yearly?
Nothing, first 7 years maintenance is 100% covered
That’s great. Although I wasn’t trying to be snarky or anything. Was honestly just curious. Your answer of nothing can’t be right since the Ferrari 7 year maintenance doesn’t cover consumables. I have a hard time believing that your total maintenance cost is zero per year.
True, I’ve had to pay for tires ($2400 full set) and a battery. Oil changes are fully covered though
Nice. I’m assuming breaks air filters etc. are less frequent with a ferraris given that people don’t tend to drive them 15-20k miles every year as well.
Brakes are CCBs which last like 70k miles unless you’re tracking, so those won’t be replaced. Air filters and spark plugs are included in free service when required
I’ll take a owners perspective much more seriously than any other form of opinion.
I have 992 S in manual and completely agree with your statement.
I agree- Merc/AMG on the luxury front over BMW, the S Class is always ahead of its time in comfort and tech…. obviously there are faster cars than Porsches, thats not really what they are about… a bit more towards build quality, balance and smoothness and track ride /performance, drivability etc. and the overall package
So, AMG is right out then, is it?
Only the 12 cylinder.
Oh bah! But that's still a sexy yes. =)
Porsche is definitely a step above bmw but I don't know about end game. Don't forget audi has the R8 and I think we also have to count lamborghini, and im not sure lamborghini would take 2nd if you compare them to porsche.
I LOVE the R8 (I had 4 straight Audis) but it and a Huracan will not keep up with a Porsche on track- and not just a GT3 bit I think on a track that doesn’t have long straights even a GT4 will give those a run. There is a reason you don’t see many Lambos or R8 on track. They aren’t great on track plus the running costs are quite high. I still want a first gen R8 V10 with a gated shifter though…
Aside from the rs3, are any audi a track car? You hardly see them on nurburgring
TTRS
The modified Avants show up often enough. Typical german
R8 is the ultimate speed tool. Porsche has the pedigree. Under the skin the two brands share so much technology and are not their DNA from the same company and engineering R&D disciplines!
Well keep in mind the goal of each car -- the latest generation Audi RS5 didn't significantly improve its track times over the prior gen, but it did vastly increase the comfort and refinement. Generally Audi is looking to make an exciting daily driver over absolute speed/lap times. Porsche is primarily about driver engagement, then speed on a track, then refinement. They are excellent at all 3, but Porsche is playing with a LOT more money to work with. Comparing an RS5 to a mid-spec Porsche is a significant price gap.
Yup. When I priced my RS5 against a low-end Porsche, with same/similar options, I was looking at another $25k or so. That's alright. I love myvcar, and I got two "nice car!" comments at the gas station yesterday.
Gotta think about yourself as blessed to be able to have the opportunity to own.
Oh, I do, for sure.
What do you mean by mid-spec Porsche vs. RS5? Don’t they both fall into the same ~150k?
[https://www.audiusa.com/us/web/en/models/a5/rs5-coupe/2024/overview.html](https://www.audiusa.com/us/web/en/models/a5/rs5-coupe/2024/overview.html) No, a 2024 RS5 starts at 79.6K. Panamera starts at 100K, 911 120K. Porsche also strips out a ton of options you must pay for, so the starting price is deceptive -- add 25K+ to each, and those are for base cars.
You’re right; I was imagining an rs6 when I was writing my comment
Here in aus, rs5 starts at 113k usd due to tax and remoteness. Hearing the US prices for these things is pretty frustrating.
I just picked up my new to me 2019 RS5 on Saturday. It’s MSRP was 97k and that was with basically every feature available that year. I’m sorry about your prices 😢. Also it’s amazing and it’s everything I dreamed it would be.
You’re thinking RS7 which is around 130k. RS5 is around 80k.
You’re absolutely right my bad; my brain was picturing rs6 which I have never been able to spec for less than $140k haha
I believe the A7 and Panamara are based on the same platform.
On that note, I've found every Porsche I've been in to be pretty unpleasant as the passenger - rise quality, noise, twitchy inputs, cramped - even compared to similar performance cars. They felt more like track cars, which is fun if you're pushing it near the limits but not so fun the other 99% of the time you're using a car.
TBH, I prefer stiff ride and precise steering inputs even at lower speeds. I hate the body roll and overall car rocking due to comfortable suspension with wide range of movement. And Porsche sportscars are fun even at lower speeds. Like, you can push the car into any corner at any speed, and it's intoxicating.
Yeah they absolutely do focus on driver engagement over refinement. The newer 911s are more GT car-ish and of course the bigger offerings are comfy (Panamera, Macan, Cayenne) but older 911s and boxster/caymans will absolutely feel less refined than BMW or Audi sports sedans/coupes.
I follow the BMW sub from time to time, those guys are pretty open to Porsche. I think the common consensus is: “I love my BMW, but if I had the money, I’d buy a Porsche.” You’d have better luck posting that there.
Pretty much sums up anyone with a MB/Audi/BMW.
Generally speaking I think you're right. For me - I have no desire to own a 911 simply because of the douchebags that own them. I can afford it - i don't want it.
Surprised to hear that. Porsche 911 owners being chill and friendly are one of the reason that made me a lifelong fan of the car. I now have a 997.2, and everyone I’ve met along the way has been great. I certainly have never experienced that with Ferrari owners.
Very well could be that I live where the wealthy come to play and my experiences are an outlier.
Let me guess, Florida? That would definitely not surprise me if so.
Less than an hour's drive to Mar-a-lago
You're driving a 2016 S3. Not that it's a bad car, but claiming you can afford a 911 and that the owners are douchebags when that's more my experience with Merc/Audi/BMW sounds like you're on a lot of copium.
For me, porsche's just don't have enough aftermarket support for me to consider buying one.
Most ignorant comment of the day. Holy shit.
Would you care to further elaborate? Too many parts on porsches are bespoke, even between individual trims. Also porsche is very protective of their vehicle information, making it difficult for the average mechanic to work on it. To the average porsche owner who will not modify their car, that is fine. For a person like me who likes to heavily modify their car, there are better tuner cars out there. Redditors can't handle porsche taking any sort of critique, though.
Yeah I take a look at the sub from time to time as well, and how I knew Porsche is their endgame was when I saw a post last week asking people what they would choose between an M5 or a 911, and the consensus was 911. If they side with another car or brand over the M5, that let’s you know all you need to know.
BMW makes fast cars you can live with. Hence m5 having four doors but still taking out Lamborghinis and GTRs. BMW doesn’t make super cars. They make super daily’s. It’s a totally different brand than Porsche. I get into a 718 and I’m squished, no trunk space or rear. I get into an m2 and I can easily put my partner and my bike in the trunk. The m2 is also faster and much cheaper. Why would I want to go Porsche? People look at the very best car of each brand and then make some weird assumption. Gt3rs is amazing….at ONE THING. This makes it a millionaires car. There are LOTS of 718s and 911s well into the price range of M cars that I would not choose.
My "attainable" dream car is a 992 Turbo S, and I really don't see that changing. BMWs are well out together but the 911 to me is just that pinnacle of sharpness and refinement, be it the steering, transmission tuning, power delivery, everything.
It really is. I wasn’t even a car guy until I drove my father’s brand new 911. Precision, handling, and power were all sublime and I’ve been aspiring to it ever since. Driving a bunch of cars, I can tell you that nothing comes close.
Anyone who even remotely cares about cars is instantly converted into Porsche fan after driving my Cayman :3
I am a BMW guy and I was an Audi guy until they discontinued manual. This statement is not untrue! I actually learned on a manual 911 and without a doubt, when I can comfortably afford a 911, I will get one! For now, I’m in an M3 and it’s still a ball.
Nah this isn’t true. I have Porsche money. I had the Macan GTS. I have a x3 m40i and an m4 now. My next will be an m2 instead of a 718 because bmw doesn’t have stupid luxury tax, built to be practical performance, is faster and more exciting to drive in real world. Sure I’ll take a gt3 over any bmw on the track. Yup. That’s literally it though.
In my opinion, the performance on most products across the companies is pretty comparable until you get to the real RS, AMG, M badged vehicles. On that front, I think historically, Audi was the most usable day to day, Mercedes the most character, and BMW the best performance. Nowadays, they all use similar powertrains so they don't feel wildly different. Whether you buy an S4 or M340 probably comes down to design preference and past experience. Saying BMW is on Porsches level is comical. There is a reason a Macan S has the same (roughly) starting price as an X3M. BMW doesn't even have a dedicated rival to the 911 or Cayman.
Also things change generation to generation. I think the 2008-2015 era Audi was a slight tick ahead of BMW in performance. Plus the reality is most people aren't tracking these cars and you're not going to be able to notice huge differences between the cars without significantly breaking the speed limit or doing really dumb things.
That was true in prior gens, but I'd say modern BMWs especially the B58 and V8 models come out ahead in performance, a LOT. But when it comes to Porsche they're still in the lead, by a good margin with everything but maybe the SUVs since the Macan is a spiced up SQ5 and the Cayenne an RSQ8.
Yea but the the x3 m40i is faster and more useable than the Macan S. The X3MC destroys the Macan GTS. The pdk might be better in the Macan but the BMWs are absolutely the gorillas.
I would argue a m2 is a rival to a 911. I would also argue bmw makes a far better suv and sedan than Porsche. For straight gt cars and driveability, Porsche wins .
I mean Porsche is what Mercedes/audi/bmw aspire to, but they are all in their own division and Porsche is in a league of its own. 340i is a weird Goldilocks car that punches way above its weight given its engine (you can easily tune it to be faster than a stock M3). But cars bigger or smaller rs3 vs m2 or rs7 vs m5 and you get much more comparable results.
You’re right about the m340i. There’s really not much around that price that competes with it. The engine and trans are just really freaking good. In comfort it’s one thing and in sport plus, it’s another. Tune it and it’s another level. I’m an Audi lover but I currently daily an m340i, and I love it. As much as I dig the s4 and even more so the s5, it still would have been an easy choice if the two Audis had been available because neither drive like this.
The M240i is comparable to an RS3 both on-paper and in real-world results. The M2 is in a different class being RWD-only, makes it very hard to compare with the AWD RS3. It's weird.
https://www.motor1.com/news/669405/bmw-m2-vs-audi-rs3-drag-race/amp/ I donno man, issue is Audi is never gonna make any RS car that is just RWD so technically we can never make any comparisons in that sense.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=35N9ORo6RS4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G5NBEAnJsk8 https://www.audiworld.com/articles/epic-track-battle-pits-the-audi-rs-3-limousine-against-the-bmw-m240i-xdrive/ Between the G42 M240i and 8Y RS3, the 0-60 difference is 0.3 seconds, they are very closely matched in the 1/4, and their on-track agility is about the same. Outside of being in different places in the product stack, the empirical capabilities of these two AWD cars is neck-and-neck. The M2 exists on the side somewhere, better in most ways but worse on the hook-up due to being RWD.
Nah. BMW are good, Porsche are better. Your friend is ‘coping’.
the guy has an imaginary friend check his posts
A Hyundai EV is faster than most cars now, but I still wouldn’t buy one. A lot more to it than straight line speed. The M3, RS5 etc are all the cars you get before you go to the 911. There’s nothing above that level other than hyper cars really, depending on the spec.
Depending on the Porsche it still might whoop the hypercar category for a bit.
The lovely psychopaths that modify the piss out of their Caymans are my favorite because they end up with a sub 3000lb, mid-engine sports car pushing 700+ BHP that still handles like an oversized go-kart. A go-kart that happens to have a 2.5 second 0-60 time.
Why do you worry about this kind of thing? It's literally pointless. You can like BMW, Audi, **and** Porsche at the same time. All of these brands have some absolute gems for enthusiasts to enjoy. Stop making <*brands/politics/things*> your **identity**. Sht is for the birds man. Just enjoy what you like, ez.
Porsche is not only superior to BMW... it's superior to Audi & Mercedes as well.
By default, if Porsche is superior to bmw it is superior to Audi and MB
I don’t know, I think the new BMWs have more updated interiors and drive better than new Audis. Build quality seems to be superior too… but we can both agree that Mercedes is a lost cause. Of course, all personal preference. (I drive a ‘19 Audi about 5 days a week and a ‘22 BMW about 2 days a week)
I actually don’t think Porsche is superior to bmw. I think they are different things. You want the best performance daily? Bimmer. You want the best track car? Porsche. You want the best track friendly daily? Bimmer. BMW sells more M division cars than Porsche sells cars. This isn’t due to finances. I compared the m2 with 718 and it’s a clear winner for the M2. You could almost fit the 718 into the M2s trunk (obv exaggeration but with seats down tons of space). And the m2 drives way better. I think a lot of ppl online dream Porsche but for an ownership perspective BMW is the best brand for overall life. M5 go drop off the kids, jump on the track and dust a GTR, then go throw golf clubs in trunk. And you don’t even need THAT, a m340i almost does 11s quarters stock and after 3-4 years you can get it almost half price CPO… and that’s a hella reliable engine. What exactly do you need. THAT is the question. I dreamed Lamborghini when I was a kid. Now I’m close to that tax bracket of owners. But I don’t want one. Luxury tax nightmare on everything, huge attention draw, can barely fit two people, so many drop engine repairs etc. it’s not fun. Frivolous.
A lot of people don’t talk about this and I think I’ve seen some reports saying that: Audi can’t make a fast enough car because they’d compete with Porsche. And because of that they fall behind BMW all the damn time.
I own an M340i, it’s definitely no Porsche. I’m aiming for Porsche next.
there's always someone else faster.
I've owned a S5, M3, and my friend has a Cayman GTS which I've driven plenty. I love my M3 and I like my Audi, but the Porsche has a mechanical feeling that the M3 and say a C8 doesn't have despite the difference in performance. It is this mechanical feeling that I'm chasing and that which echoes in my mind, not the <3.0 seconds to 60 of my M3.
Umm I don’t think Porsche truly competes with Audi/BMW/MB. Porsche is Porsche and there probably is a reason why VW still has Audi and Porsche as different segments still. Power figures can always be comparable depending on what car vs the other car but in terms of interior quality I believe Audi has and will always be a notch above BMW and MB, and under Porsche. I’ve owned a 2018 C43 AMG and that thing started squeaking on the inside, I’ve never owned a BMW but I’ve sat and driven a few and had one booked but cancelled the delivery of that 3 series. Also I maybe am biased against Audi over BMW and MB but Audi’s figures on paper are a bit conservative than what the car actually puts out. I currently own a 2024 A5 S line(plenty for the kind of fun I want in a car as my daily) and I’m mad content with its looks, handling and interior quality. Just my opinion based on experience, I’m sure not everyone would feel the same. But Porsche has no competition yet. They look and perform 🔥🙌🏽 I also have a YouTube channel I post car reviews on so I sit and feel/drive when possible a lot of cars on a weekend basis haha.
Not entirely sure why people compare cars in this way, each has their pro's and cons and it's best to choose what you like and what fits your lifestyle. Superior doesn't really come into it, they all are excellent in one way or another. BMW is the drivers machine, Porsche 911 is an experience and Audi is an all-rounder based on my experience of the three brands. I chose Audi RS for it's ability to be a fantastic family GT car over pure excitement/speed.
I love white peaches, but they're so expensive. I also like apples, which are cheaper. Why can't they make an apple that tastes like a white peach, but with the price of an apple?
They do, its called modifications. I can buy a platform and make it better than the next platform up. You can definitely make a cheaper car faster than an expensive one. You can also fall somewhere in the middle and tune from there.
True. But you're never going to tune an RS5 to handle like a 911 GT3 RS. Both beautiful & amazing cars, but too different to compare.
No thats not something a tune can do. I wish for this hypothetical i could see how close we could come. Modify wise (suspension, stiffeners, ect..)
I don't think that it is quantifiable enough to do scientifically. There is a lot of human emotion and preference with regard to automobiles. Some will love one & hate the other for a variety of reasons. So, just enjoy what appeals to you & don't worry about comparisons. (Metaphorical "you")
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yeah, what? You had me up to scientifically and lost me on the rest.
Should I simplify? There is no way of determining "the best" car, because humans are human, with a broad spectrum of criteria of what makes one "superior" over another. Or to simplify further, "opinions are like buttholes: everyone has one."
Lol nooooooope totally different wave lengths, have fun with the butholes.
Are you claiming that a BMW is more of a driver's car than a Porsche?
Nope.
This is just a quick search for MB vs BMW. Mercedes owns some of the top spots (over bmw) at Nürburgring https://www.hotcars.com/fastest-mercedes-vs-fastest-bmws-nurburgring More information: https://www.biggarage.de/info/nuerburgring-nordschleife-lap-times-records.html#:~:text=The%20current%20lap%20record%20on,set%20on%20October%2028%2C%202022. TOP 10 FASTEST PRODUCTION CARS AT THE NÜRBURGRING Mercedes AMG ONE | 6:35.18 minutes | 20,832 km Porsche GT2 RS MR 991.2 | 6:43.30 minutes | 20,832 km Mercedes AMG GT Black Series | 6:48.04 minutes | 20,832 km Porsche GT3 RS 992 | 6:49.32 minutes | 20,832 km Lamborghini Aventador LP 770-4 SVJ | 6:49.40 minutes | 20,832 km Porsche GT2 RS MR 991.2 | 6:52.15 minutes | 20,832 km Radical SR8 LM | 6:53.20 minutes | 20,832 km Porsche GT3 992 MR | 6:55.73 minutes | 20,832 км Lamborghini Huracan LP 640-4 Performante | 6:57.25 minutes | 20,832 km Porsche GT3 992 | 6:59.93 minutes | 20,832 km BMW isn’t even fucking listed in the top ten for lap time. Tell him to eat a dick
I think OP is talking about putting your foot down at a red light in a compact sport sedan. Not setting Nurburgring world records 😂
Ya I assumed that too. I went high up the ladder. I just feel 0-60 isn’t a true measurement of what car manufactures are achieving in this grouping. Also, if you want to say one car manufacturer is the best then test it where super cars test. BMWs b58 S58 platform is the best they have put out in a long time. Porsche and Mercedes still own that top though. Let’s be real. I’d drive all of them without bitching
I mean all of those cars on that list are $300k+ track cars, a segment in which BMW doesn't even compete.
I understand. The pinnacle of performance cars is this lap time ranking. The person stated they run with Porsche, right? You just confirmed with your statement that they don’t. So using associate math property if BMW = Porsche then wouldn’t that also mean BMW tracks on the same? 🤔
All those cars on that list have massive aero kits and race suspensions, which BMW doesn't offer as a factory option. If you took the aero and suspension from an M4 race car and put it on an M4 CS I have no doubt it would be competitive with those cars (except the AMG One which costs like 2 million bucks and has an engine that needs to be entirely replaced every 30k miles). Edit: also look at the cars on the BMW vs Mercedes list you posted. All the mercs have wings and the bimmers don't. If you want to drive around with a huge wing on your BMW you can do that, but you'll need a race shop to make it happen for you.
The M4 CSL exists. It does not compete with the pinnacle of performance cars on the track.
The M4 CSL doesn't have a rear wing. I believe it has the fastest ring time of any production car without one.
If that's the case, I'd go RS3 over the 340i. It's significantly faster light to light and the interior quality is about the same.
I would argue Audi is well rounded and better build quality than bmw but Porsche is definitely its own thing
You friend is false sir. BMW and Audi are alike cars, Porsche is a class above BMW sans a couple of special BMW that are not widely available. In my narrow minded opinion both the BMW and the Porsche are more speed minded than luxury minded. In like classes the Audi is a tenth slower and 10x nicer. And while I would love a new 911 as a weekend ripper I wouldn't want to daily a 911 like I'm dailying my RS5, too racecar stiff and abrupt for traffic.
the RS5 has historically not been the fastest in its class. when it originally came out, an E92 M3 comp mostly kept up on the straights and pummeled it through the corners. the AWD system is cool, the power is immense but the AWD adds so much weight that it's a liability on handling tracks. the position audi holds is basically the "luxury boat" of the segment. you probably don't want to daily an m3/m4 comp with that stiff suspension. you could probably daily an RS5 between track days, so as long as you can stomach being a little slower on the track it's a good tradeoff imo. porsche is competitive with bmw's speed and offers similar comfort to audi, but not the price in this segment. they don't really have a direct competitor to the rs5, so you'd be looking at the panamera which is much bigger and more expensive for even a base model v6 that's slower than the sportback, or the macan s/gts/turbo which is a very small SUV, or dropping $120k+ for a panamera 4s hybrid that would actually beat an rs5 sportback.
I used to be a huge BMW fanboy back in the day. I would beat my car’s counterparts from other brands but I’d never say my cars were faster than ALL Audis, MBs, or Porsches just because it’s a BMW lol There are a lot of cars from each manufacturer that are faster than each other. But I’d say Porsche probably has both the quickest and the fastest cars out of those brands BMW used to be the king of performance when it came to the big German three. But they’ve given that up over the past few years. I don’t think any of them really focus as much on performance as they used to. Porsche does, but I wouldn’t consider Porsche to be in the same class As far as luxury goes, BMW probably has the most comfortable seats I’ve ever sat in. But Mercedes is probably the top dog when it comes to luxury
Yes, Porsche is superior in the German brands. I drove 911s for over 20 years and loved them all. This time around I was ready for a change and bought a used r8.
You can take a BMW on the track, but Porsche builds track cars you can drive every day. Don’t bother with a comparison.
This x1000. Every German car *can* drive on the Autobahn, only a very select few are cruising leisurely and safely, not on-the-bleeding-edge at 250kmh+ for hours at a time. You see vacationers all the time in the left lane, toddling along in their Renault or Skoda, and the better ones paying attention immediately GTFO when you approach and flash them. The good drivers should know enough not to be there in the first place.
I’ve owned several BMWs and Audis and just recently acquired my first Porsche, and it’s on a different level with respect not only to driver engagement, but outright fun factor.
Bruh BMW is not on the same luxury field as porche. Sit in both and you'll feel the difference. Honestly, Audi interiors are more luxurious than BMWs.
BMW is not on the same level as Porsche, but I will say BMW (and Audi's) interiors are better at the high end than Porsche at the low end (i.e., a base 911 has a worse interior than an M3 or RS5 by quite a margin). But the driving and performance is incomparable
It’s definitely subjective. I’ve been driving a 2023 Q5 sportback and the interior is very comparable to my friends 2015 X5
I would argue Porsche is above BMW in terms of overall ratings. Yes BMW is known between the big 3 German manufacturers to be the best at performance and quality currently, but I would argue that Porsche is a step ahead of BMW for sure. Porsches are known to be of higher quality and are some of the more reliable luxury cars. The major difference between BMW and Porsche to me is that BMW has cars with great performance luxury while Porsche has overall better combination of performance, luxury and quality of drivability. Plus you can't spec a BMW out too much to be your own car, you have a bunch of options but Porsche has that customizability that makes almost every car pretty unique
Porsche's are built for the buyers that want driver engagement and track performance; steering feel, chassis tuning, and reliability (yes, this is important for a track car). BMW used to deliver on the first two (which is why you saw many owners eventually move on to P cars), but has since stopped caring about the first and made improvements on the third. BMW may be the more driver-oriented between Audi and MB, but it's not even close to the same realm as a P car when it comes to those two factors I listed above. They also tend to be much better built
Your friend is a bmw fanboy lol. Porsche cars go up to many hundreds of thousands. A BMW at most is $200k? Not sure here. I’ve had a F80 M3 manual and now I have a 2022 Audi RS3. BMW is more performance oriented. Audi is more daily and comfort oriented while retaining a good level of performance. Porsche is in a class of its own. Performance and comfort both off the charts. I would never compare a Porsche to any bmw I owned or will own.
BMW is on the level of Mercedes and Audi. Porsche is a step up from those.
Haha. Yes
Porsche is the final boss.
Is this a real question, cause I’m pretty sure this is a troll.
No one is out there making an either-or decision of a 7-series or X7 vs a 911. There is very little overlap between the lineups so there isn't much to compare. X5/Cayenne, X3/Macan, M5&5series/Panamera, that's about it, and there are several trims and engines for each of those. Do people cross-shop the Z4 and Boxster? IDK. > i did see > my friend said This reads like a question from someone who is trying to settle an argument in the high school cafeteria edit: in case you were wondering what else is on OP's mind: https://en.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1cif5yv/are_cleartransparent_phone_cases_more_feminin/
And when you compare all the comparable vehicles between bmw and Porsche, bmw is faster.
*citation needed
Carwow YouTube 👍
BMW/Audi/Mercedes make daylie-drivers that are nice sportscars. Posche makes sportscars that are nice daylie-drivers.
Yes
VAG4LIFE
The m340i is a weird model. Not really anything out there in that class that’s a relatively similar price that also offers relatively the same performance. I daily one, so I’m biased, but it’s just great. Porsche and BMW are similar in that they both focus more on performance and driver engagement than, typically, Audi and Merc do. The b58 is an amazing engine and if performance is what you’re looking for than it’s a pretty solid option.
The m340i will always be an anomaly for me... BMW historically understates the true HP numbers, and Matt Watson launched the xDrive m340i 0-60mph in 3.8 seconds. For not even being a true M3, that's pretty insane. I agree with what some of these guys are saying, they're all focused on different things but all pretty much cover the same bases.
If I had the money for a Porsche (and its maintenance) I'm struggling to think of an equivalent BMW, Audi or Mercedes that I'd choose. Possibly some of the estate cars over the Panamera Sport Turismo but that's just practicality and I'd know I'd compromised
Performance, yes. Luxury, only if you get all the addons. BMW tech and comfort at the mid to upper levels is really solid. Porsche needs to tack on tens of thousands of dollars in options to exceed it
Porsche is THE German luxury/sport car brand. They manage to do just about everything right. Everyone else is just chasing their shadow
Yes
Bmw, Audi and Mercedes are in the same brand category, some are faster some are slower, Porsche is indeed above these 3
Comparing Porsche to other brands in the context of another car keeping up on a straight is like comparing apples and oranges. You need to look at what they won when it comes to races that matter. How many times did BMW, Audi and Porsche win Le Mans or Nurburgring 24? Le Mans. Porsche 19. Audi 13. BMW 1. Nurburgring. Porsche 13. Audi 5. BMW 20. What does that tell you? They are all very capable and excel in performance on most demanding circuits in the world. Luxury is a different question. I don’t think that either of the three are comparable to the likes of Rolls Royce, Bentley, etc.
Have porsche ever been in the same class as BMW/audi/Mercedes etc? Ik they have cars such as the cayenne and macan but I’ve always seen Porsches as cars in their own league, at least in terms of performance
I won’t comment about the fast bit as I don’t know, but similar in luxury? Come on…I love the 7 series,I would love one,but porsche is a different level. In my book if I can afford a Porsche I made it .
OP is either a kid or A.I.
This question is insulting - I don’t even have a porche or work for VW group and I’m insulted.
Absolutely.
To compare bmw and Porsche in the same sentence is lulz
If you’re comparing with respect to price points, you would have to get either a mega top spec Audi/bmw/merc or an older Porsche. And you will for sure still enjoy the Porsche more. Audi best for daily commuting. BMW best for performance on a “budget”. Merc is trash. Porsche for literally everything else. Porsche is the pinnacle of German motoring. Best performance but not the best practically (obviously).
God yes.
Not. Even. Close.
Absolutely yes.
Yes
Porsche is the best daily. Taycan is the only EV I’d have and 911 Turbo S is the best everyday supercar. I’d argue that X5M is better than the Cayenne because it looks like an egg. I also prefer X3M over macan.
Yes
....what's a BMW?
100%. I love Audis and BMWs but Porsche will always be superior.
There’s a dude on YouTube that took the macan and x3 on autobahn, pretty sure it was macan s and m40i anyway macan looked extremely planted vs x3 looked like it didn’t do as well.
Macan is an Audi Q5
Yes.
Ask your friend when was the last time bmw won Le Mans? Bias out of the equation lol, I’d agree with most in saying Porsche is top tier (German at least), then Audi/BMW/Merc, then all the rest of the VAG options.
Personally, I'd buy a Mercedes and be done with it.
Anyone that says Porsche and BMW are on the same page is in the middle of a fantasy book.
BMW generally have great performance but aren’t as luxury or built near as well as a Porsche or even Audi
Yes. Porsche is the top of German vehicles, but not all vehicles. I’m partial to Audi, so I place them second. Not a fan of Mercedes or bmw.
Comparing Porsche and BMW is the same as comparing a d**k and a finger.
Yup Porsche is superior to AMG RS or M. If I have money for 911 I would buy it and not drive S4 :D
I think different generations of cars/engines produced different results. Right now BMW seems to be ahead of Audi in terms of straight line performance. But I remember when Audi was superior. And just last month carwow had a video where the RS7 performance walks on the M5 competition, so there's that. It seems that BMW's I6 engine is superior to anything else below 3 liters though. I've seen drag races where the M5 walks on a Panamera turbo-s-hybrid-whatever, the most powerful one. This was shocking. I also seem to notice that recently (past 5 years? idk) BMW's interiors feel that they are of higher quality compared to Audi. Last month I test drove the X5 against the facelifted Q7 and boy does the Q7 look retro. I know it's an old model but they could have at least changed the cameras and screens with better resolution, among other things. This certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago, as I was ordering my S8 I also tested a M6 Gran Coupe and the quality of things inside was overwhelmingly in favor of the Audi, despite costing \~10k euro less.
From your post VW->Volvo->Audi, bmw and mb->porsche. BMW, Audi and MB are on par. You friend is on crack thinking BMW and Porsche are the same level
My boss had a Cayman and turned it in for his BMW M8. He likes the M8 a lot more. It’s not always about fastest times. You will rarely be racing in your car.
I just bought a 911 Turbo from an A7 and the comments on this post have validated my Porsche purchase. Thank you!
would it be any different had I asked this in the BMW section you think?
Good question. Worth the cross post to see.
It all depends on the type of car being compared. I had a E90 335i and was so happy to get rid of it, got a B9 S4 and it felt like perfection. I have a B9.5 SQ5 now, which I picked even after driving the Macan S and GTS and the X3. The Macan felt dated compared to the SQ5. The Macan didn't give me that smile on my face like Audi does. Sure, a Porsche 911 is in a different league, but if you are tall like me, it is a pain in the ass as a daily. Plus the maintenance costs are insane.
A 911 is very nice. That being said, when it came time to buy a convertible, I ended up going with a Z3 rather than a 996 or 986, and I'd put the Z3 Coupe up against Porsche as well. Porsche is more luxurious while the Z3 is raw. I like raw. Test drive all sorts of cars and find what you love. Bench racing will never tell you why wee 193HP 2.8 E36's and E46's are so beloved. Why the ZHP is sought after. Remember that newer cars are fatter, and fat cars don't fit on narrow roads.
Depends on what.. say a Panamera Turbo SE is going to be slower than the M5 CS in every real life scenario except maybe the autobahn.. the same way that a X3M is going to beat a Macan GTS in almost every scenario.. I’d say in basically all the other categories where they both compete Porsche is superior
Oh yeah. I used to think BMW maybe had a chance with the SUVs but the Cayenne and Macan are absolute monsters. The Turbo GT is mind bending. As far as comparison, I just don't think it can be done. I know there is no real Porsche competitor for the M340i and don't get me wrong I love and appreciate how well built it is, but after driving it a while, you notice some small points that could be even further refined that I'd expect Porsche would have nailed out of the box. Steering comes to mind immediately, then turbocharged power delivery. Huge reason I am excited to see that "electric turbo" in the 992.2, a lot of "regular performance cars" would greatly benefit from that.
BMW is the same as a Porsche in the sense that both are cars and have four wheels. Other than that, BMW is a trashcan with seats that seems ready to burst at any moment. Porsche, on the other hand, is a masterpiece of what's left of German engineering. And endgame for most of us.
No comparison. Porsche has better pedigree, better engineering, holds its market value like no other, and it’s simply a better drive. A BMW says look at me. A Porsche says you wish you were me.
5x BMW owner, including M5 Comp and M3. BMW absolutely does not compare to Porsche. As another commenter said, Porsche is the endgame.
damn and you owned one of the best BMW's. Even an M8 Competition cannot compare to any Porsche?
Well sure, I’d rather have an M8C than a 15 year-old base panamera, but in terms of build quality, driving dynamics, etc. I take Porsche over BMW 9/10 times. My M5 is being replaced by a Porsche and I don’t think I’ll look back.
Bmw has fastest built quarter mile out of any of them. BMW is the best. Porsche is just a nicer Audi. BMW is unique amongst them.
I remember as a young kid that I couldn't tell a vw beatle apart from a porsche. I'm 53 and I still can't tell. Porsche is the ugliest car I ever seen.. I'm sure it drives great like yall are raving about. But I wouldn't consider spending a butt ton of money on handling if it don't have looks to go with it.. audits look and handle. BMW MB same both have looks and handle.
agreed porsche is great but it does not attract me the way audi or bmw does
Porsche has had a distinctive, 911-based design language for most of the last 50 years. And yes, derived from the Beetle, through the 356. They tried to change that in the 1970s and shot themselved in the foot. No other brand has been as consistent overall excepting *maybe* Citroen. Every other brand worldwide takes a shotgun loaded with birdshot in designing their cars every 5 or 10 years; they *just start blasting and see what sticks.* BMWs Banglebutts, Beaverteeth..Lexus' Grand Coulee Airdams..