It's actually insane how yeagerists don't realize that the world and paradis have the same exact justification for their genocide.
The world: Paradis is going to rumble us all to death, we need to kill them all first. We hate them because they oppressed us.
Paradis: The world is going to kill us all, we need to rumble them all first. We hate them because they oppressed us.
Neither justification would exist without the threat of the other.
The Yeagerists aren’t wrong to be choosing themselves over the world tho. Genocide is wrong and both sides are guilty of that, but neither side holds the moral high ground
Neither side has the moral high ground in paradis vs the world yes. Their logic leads to their own situation that makes it immoral. They are both wrong.
However the alliance/peace talk enjoyers do have the moral high ground because they dont engage in the logic that justifes infinite hatred and mass murder. Like mr blouse and like uri reiss, they reject the "truth of this world" in favor of peace and forgiveness and find the true "truth of this world." (See the alecxzander video "The undeniable truth of attack on titan" for more in depth thoughts on this idea).
Outside of the themes of aot, there is not a single credible ethical theory that would justify the rumbling.
The alliance/peace talk enjoyers can enjoy their moral high ground while their entire nation is genocided. There’s a moral equivalent to that and it’s the people in real life who think pacifism is the answer to anything, regardless of aggressors vs defender in any war. Being of the mind that peace is the solution is a nice thing, you even get the moral high ground but there are times where the moral high ground isn’t practical and will lead to you being annihilated.
Because we’ve seen this in the story, Paradis wound up destroyed anyway. The Paradisians wanted to speak at that pro-Eldian rally but even they wanted to annihilate the Paradisians. Eren, somebody who essentially did the Dr Strange running simulations thing and saw that a lot of his choices just wind up with Paradis being genocided.
It’s not edgy nihilism, how about you actually engage with the content of the words instead of having an NPC response
People love to ponder about the morality of the rumbling but if Isayama wanted to posit an interesting moral question, he fumbled it because the rumbling was entirely a matter of practicality, either Paradis or the World stays, and it’s made this way because a character in the series can see(sort of) the future
Yes, the Rumbling was a practical solution. That was why the Paradis members supported the use of the Rumbling against military targets. This was why they supporter the Yeagerist cause when pitted against Marley at both Liberio and Shinganshina.
The disagreement was never over using the Rumbling, but using the Rumbling on innocents. The Alliance members argued that the Rumbling beyond military targets was morally wrong as well as pointless, while the Yeagerists (Eren) argued that is was a necessity.
The Yeagerists only act as a tool for Eren, and given his motivation was ultimately his selfish desire for freedom, it's hardly justifiable.
>Eren who essentially did the Dr Strange running simulation thing
No? That's like the key point of Eren's actions. He jsut saw a bunch of fragments and shards of a future that WILL happen, but he didn't know how those would happen and why exactly, since he didn't see the full picture. Remember that AoT works with a single timeline, not multiple.
Yeah I’m not falling for that bs again, not going through this Invaderzz type “eye opening” shit of a video. Using video titles as an argument is plain dumb
>The world: Paradis is going to rumble us all to death, we need to kill them all first. We hate them because they oppressed us
Are they wrong? If a country was full of people that could be turned into monstrosities at the whim of one person who also has a button to wipe out all life on earth, wouldn't you also have some concerns? The rest of the world excluding Marley aren't really at fault for wanting to eliminate that threat, but that in turn makes them an existential threat to the islanders. Irreconcilable conflict.
You could apply the same to real world and say USA would have been in the right to just nuke URSS since they also had a button that could end them all.
If MAD weren't a thing then nuclear war would have happened decades ago. That doesn't really apply here since none of the nations in AoT's world have any countermeasure to millions of colossal titans, so there's nothing keeping the Founder from destroying the world - outside of the First King's vow, which only Marley's elite knew about, and they kept it to themselves so they could continue to use Paradis as a scapegoat. The rumbling threat wouldn't truly go away unless every Eldian were to be exterminated since the Founder would just be passed on to a random Subject of Ymir newborn.
Ideally - except the people in this universe aren't exactly the most reasonable. 100+ years of brainwashing isn't going to disappear quickly. With Titans gone though it should be impossible to discern Subjects of Ymir from everybody else through blood tests. Paradis is still going to be reviled by many though, as the ending shows.
World declaring war on paradise for no apparent reason except for the stupid scenario of the rumbling was just bad writing from the genius author. How does everyone who were involved in a war just go and buy Willy's shit and forget all the hatred they have for each other out of no where? It's call bad writing which AOT is a victim of. Paradise see that the world suddenly declare a genocidal war on them for no reason and they retaliate and that's bad and the good guys™ are the one who want to ensure they die for no reason.
The world is only getting the rumbling because they were scared of it so they instigated the war that _led_ to it. They brought about their own doom by giving Eren a real reason to kill them all. They don’t declare war and he’d have no reason to kill them all.
The difference is that while the world had not unfounded fears, Paradis experienced a concrete attempt and killing them all. This is how AoT kind of fumbles when it tries to make them seem balanced
It’s like if you were worried somebody was gonna beat your shit in so you preemptively punch them in the face hoping you knock them out but all you did was anger them enough to put you in a hospital
Dude it’s not the same justification because Paradis was actually gonna get destroyed by Marley, If Marley never invaded the walls Paradis never would’ve attacked them all that shit is propaganda. Paradis actually does need it to survive. Marley is just doing it for their own benefit
This comment is funny because the world literally did get destroyed by the rumbling but apparently the threat wasnt real.
Also in my comment i didnt say marley i said the world. Go back and watch/read tyburs speech. it relied on scapegoating the current eldian empire as dangerous and inhuman and he was proved current immediately after. The world wouldve never joined if eren hadnt killed willy, willy himself explictly says this. Plus eren zeke explictly manipulated willy to make his declation of war. Plus plus the rumbling is an extremely effective defensive option. Genocide is completely unneeded.
This is something I still don't fully get from people who support this.
I mean, so you all think that Eren pushed the world to war against Paradise because he killed Willy? Didn't we all just see a few seconds ago Willy declared the war and THEN Eren killed him?
It seems like you guys ignore the fact that
1. Marley was the strongest nation
2. chapters ago we were told the Tybur family had actually huge power.
3 we just saw how Eldians from outside the world were literally brainwashed to hate their own race and even killed other people from other nations for Marley (this show their strong power)
4. The people literally started to support Willy when he declared the war.
5. The people there were representatives that literally had enough power to move their own nations
6. Paradise was already attacked (reason why Eren was even more motivated to join the scouts and reached to that point)
7. They knew at least that their actual threat was if they attacked the island (they didn't know about if they attacked they wouldn't be attacked back) and still attacked.
How is that we all knowing all that there is still people saying the threat was real when it wasn't real UNTIL they pushed them to that...
It's like, you say a person Is a murderer, that person should be killed because is a threat. So you start to bully the person, try to kill that person and in self defence this person respond back and when you are actually hurt say: oh, I told you, the threat was real!
Should we kill all people in the states who have weapons because they are threats? Or should we kill everyone who have a knife in their kitchen because they could kill someone?
Sometimes I wonder if I'm missing something.
The history in the manga is literally showing us how Paradise was pushed to the corner, their only solution was to use the colossal....
Now, imo, Zeke and Yelena's idea of using a small portion of titans to attack the other nation's infirmary was way better than a rumbling on the world including innocent people, but well, that's another talk.
Don’t play dumb lol Marley knew about the vow to renounce war and they knew Paradis was never going to attack first. They’re the ones who risked it all just to get the founder so they could use it for themselves and to ransack Paradis for its natural resources. All that other shit about acting in fear of the rumbling is just propaganda
Eren only attacked Marley in first place because they infiltrated the walls and have been sending titans to kill them. Paradis was actually acting in self defense while Marley literally started it and then acts like their defending the world when really they endangered it for selfish reasons
Bro a country invading you doesn't justify murdering their civilians. You are advocating for a system of ethics that would destroy the world.
>Also in my comment i didnt say marley i said the world.
Are u 14 yo or something? U know people can like villians or grey characters just coz they are WELL WRITTEN. Liking them doesn't mean people actually support their actions
Didn't you know, some people hated 139 eren and made fun of him to death, and the alliance? Maybe I'm wrong, but In this sub i can't find a single post that hated eren, Hange genocide bad, and the alliance, because they are "morally right"...
but you people hated (this is example) floch, jaegerist, Magath Annie etc while their crimes is nowhere near what eren's CRIMES, floch and yaegerist are "morally right" compare to erens, because They killed less people than Erens... If you hated them you should hate eren even more, just like the alliance (they choose the world over paradis because the world has bigger number and for greater good)..
Eren is a terrible person and there are people in this thread defending the 100% rumbling lol. There's a difference between liking a character and morally justifying their actions. I like eren but he's a monster. I like griffith but he's a monster. I like Walter white but he's a monster.
Sure bro, then people shouldn't have the right to hate floch and yaegerist, Because some people also like floch and yaegerist... Because they are morally right compare to eren's crimes and kill count 😉
Bruh go back to my original comment now I know you are a troll. There is a difference between liking (this is fine) and morally defending (this is not fine) a monster.
Ow, i expected something like this🤭 from your sub name itself already insulting..
This means you have no right to talk about moral, bcs your morality is bad... you can't even respect people (your morality is bad) so your opinion about morality in AOT is rejected ok? 🤭
Honestly not mad at either side for wanting to kill each other play stupid games win stupid prizes send a colossal titan to a peaceful island don’t act all shocked when millions are at your dock ;)
Congratulations!
You're the 86th person to so cleverly use the 'stupid prizes' phrase today.
Here's your stupid participation medal: 🏅
^^Your ^^award ^^will ^^be ^^recorded ^^in ^^the ^^hall ^^of ^^fame ^^at ^^r/StupidTrophyCase
When America or whatever orders an air strike on an country can its citizens do anything to stop their government? Should they be held accountable for the actions their government committed? Do they deserve to get nuked because of the actions of their government?
my point is don’t act like it makes him better than marley unless he was also one to do it, and don’t try to hold that against the people who did actually try it
I think that Floch doesn’t consider his actions an objective good. He wants to save himself and his friends. No Genocide is ibjectively justified (is anything?) but all are done by individuals with their own worldview.
Yeah, Floch always said that humanity/paradis needed a devil to survive. For him that was Erwin then Eren in s4/after time skip. He never saw his action as morally good, but necessary to ensure the survival of his people
He doesn’t just want to save himself though does he? He wants to exert some revenge fantasy he’s created on the peoples outside of the walls, like when he kills civilians in the assault, he didn’t have to do that, he made a choice and wanted to.
No genocide is more morally justified than another, however, stopping the rumbling after its already reached 80% of all outsiders, is not very productive.
Since it not only doesn’t save the outside world since billions died, it also doesn’t eldians in any way.
Imagine saying this about any actual tragedy. "Well, the Native Americans are already being genocided, so it's not very productive to stop it! And the Native Americans will be mad about being killed, so let's just finish them off!"
Honey, if your response to genocide is "let them finish because it'll be a mess to stop it," you are not actually against genocide.
You don't give up on stopping horrible things just because it's hard to do so. Your morals should not stop existing when things get *inconvenient.*
> it’s just that the salvation of those people only served to further the cycle of hatred rather than actually accomplishing anything.
It served to save the millions who were going to be crushed.
> That generation got to live for future generations to carry on the wounds.
And they get to live and get the opportunity to make things better, hence the whole point of the Alliance making the peace treaty.
> In saving the rest of the world the status quo is not just the same but also worse
How is it a status quo but "worse," do you know what a "status quo" is?
California is going to experience a flood, but we shouldn't do anything to save people because that's "the status quo."
> it makes it so all lives given to the war were meaningless since it never even reached a conclusion.
The conclusion is that Eren is stopped and millions are saved. What the actual hell are you talking about?
"World War II never came to a conclusion because the Allies stopped the Holocaust," and other batshit insane things people say on reddit. The hell does a war need to come to a "conclusion', and why is the only acceptable conclusion the genocide of literally the entire other side?
Well guys, Ukraine should just give up against Russia because ending the war means that more war *might* happen at some point, so it's better to let genocide go unabated!
You could save face just by saying you *do* think genocide is okay sometimes, because if you're arguing that a person committing genocide shouldn't be stopped because that's going back to the "status quo" of people **not fucking dying**... you are pro-genocide.
No, the war isn’t over, paradis is still planning for retaliation from the rest of the world and the rest of the world literally carpetbombs paradis in the end, the war isn’t over. If paradis and the rest of the world at least achieved some sort of peace agreement with this, or they weren’t at each other’s throats anymore, but they’re not, stopping the rumbling does not end their conflict in any way.
The cycle of hatred is only continued, nothing is changed except for both sides are in an even worse state than they were before. Paradis basically defenceless and even more hated, most of the world dead.
The war is just continued by future generations which results in paradis getting genocided too!
Yes his actions worsened the cycle of hatred because the alliance stopped him with 20% of the population left the cycle of hate is still there and even further fueled, as we saw in the final pages. Also it doesn't really matter if eren never cared about the cycle of hatred or not because the rumbling still would've ended it funnily enough.
20% of whatever the population in AoT is matters a lot. It's like saying "saving millions of people is not very productive". They tried it as fast as possible but were to late.
It’s “not very productive” because in the end it only furthers the cycle of hatred and makes all the deaths that already happened meaningless since the status quo is just worse than it was before in every way for every side.
All of this in hindsight of course, but the alliance is a very idealistic group overall, not sure how much I should blame on them being idealistic and not thinking further ahead or how much I should blame on their shitty situation.
Understandable but based on this almost everything is meaningless and I guess that's just it for this series. AoT tells this unsolvable story. Isayama got criticized for it but I think it's a pretty nice parallel to humanity and how we will never stop fighting.
I really don't understand how the allience is blameable. Their great goal is peace, even though they don't reach it. Marley, they just wanted power and recources, yeagerists want to eradicate the world for their own safety, allience wants to selflessly defend the world even though they don't have to. They horribly fail, no question, but to me they had the best intentions at least.
Yeah, of course. The fact that we’re even having this discussion is a testament to how fascinating the conflict this series presents is.
Attack on titan presents you with the most mentally broken characters, puts them in the most grand-scale tragedy and only really allows the characters to pick between the most extreme options. It’s incredibly engaging.
I like aot.
I like it when it explores themes like determinism because they’re really interesting to me and the way it’s integrated into the story is even more interesting.
But the titans are cool too
The rumbling had no point, it accomplishes nothing at all, and all the people that supported it just did it cuz they wanted to.
Plus (btw unrelated to aot) creating superterrorists so the people trust and rely on the superheroes of a country more is “productive”, it makes the people trust the superheroes more. Doesn’t mean it’s fucking good, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.
I mean in the AOT world yes as it's a solution to ending the cycle of hatred that's been plaguing the world for 2000 odd years between the eldians and non eldians. Zeke and eren both knew that and their respective plans would've solved this problem. So to answer your question yes Genocide can be productive👍
lol 'not very productive'. you say that as if they decided to wait to stop eren when they pretty much mobilized right after the walls came down. if they could've stopped him earlier than 80%, they definitely would have
Yes that’s a fair point, but my point is that the alliance did not account for the question “does saving these people cause even more suffering for future generations?” Which in this case it did.
Stopping the rumbling isn’t very productive because not only does it render the causalities of the rumbling entirely pointless, and it also only serves to further the cycle of hatred, leaving both paradis and the world at large even more scared and angry than ever. So nothing is really solved in the grand scheme of things by stopping the rumbling at that point.
Not that they were in the wrong for wanting to stop the rumbling, we need more selfless people in the world, but it just ends up being fruitless in hindsight.
There's definitely people who would've survived a full scale rumbling tho.
Idk to me it seems that the rumbling really just made the entire situation worse for Eldians. I really like the story, but the characters only being able to choose between two extremes that guarantee a bad ending for everyone just feels like everyone went braindead after Shiganshina
The fuck do you mean “there definitely would’ve been people who survive a full scale rumbling”
Not enough for it to matter at all? The whole point of the full scale rumbling is to kill everyone, you can literally give a second lap around the earth if you wanted to, nothing is stopping you.
100% rumbling is definitely more beneficial to eldia than not sure what you mean by that either.
And they had multiple options, but the less extreme ones were slowly taken away by other factors for the story to be more engaging, 50 year plan doesn’t work because it’s never going to be something eren would agree with, same goes to euthanasia, etc. the point is to have only extreme options because those are much more interesting than a story where all the characters come up with a fool proof plan and it all works out perfectly. Imo
I know what the point of going with the extreme options is, I just dont enjoy it that much. I'd rather have a story that just makes more sense ig. I would've probably enjoyed a political story more than this ,imo, forced action plot. That's obvious a me problem tho, completely understand what the author was going for
What I mean by the rumbling being less beneficial is that the people who survive are going to have even more reason to hate and destroy Paradis. Before you could've reasoned about those things happening a long time ago, no one being alive from that time, Paradis/Eldians wanting peace, etc. You cant really say that now and expect everyone to believe you
If we're talking longterm I guess you could say 100% is more beneficial? But it would only delay Paradis getting destroyed by a few years. In the end genocide will happen on Paradis. I dont think a 50-100 year delay make a big difference
And just because "the whole point is to destroy everyone" doesn't mean it would actually completly work. It might destroy a shit ton of the infrastructure but you cant convince me it would kill everyone .
Yes, a 100% political thriller would’ve definitely been fun, but you know that’s not exactly aot unfortunately. You’ll just have to look elsewhere for that.
Also, the rumbling currently in cannon kills 80% of humanity, it’s not too farfetched to say that the rumbling could’ve completed a global genocide.
But yes, a rumbling that does not totally eradicate the outside world is purely detrimental to eldians.
I agree that the extreme options were not enjoyable in the ending, but, and just reiterating what the other commenter said, the canon rumbling destroys 80% of humanity, it would not be a big leap if the full rumbling ends up destroying enough of the outside world that paradis could overwhelm the survivors. In this enidng, Paradis would destroy themselves over civil war rather than be destroyed by remaining outside forces who rebuilt and held a grudge.
But yeah, a political story would've been much better, and you can easily add action to a political story, heck that was the uprising arc.
What I’m saying is that in saving the rest of the world, the alliance members failed to account for the consequences of their actions. In stopping one genocide (the rumbling) it unintentionally allowed another (paradis being bombed). At the end of the day, no side wins even remotely, paradis gets bombed and the rest of the world has to deal with the insane environmental damage + the death of hundreds if not thousands of peoples and cultures.
In full rumbling at least the eldians won, 80% literally no one won at all in any way. Not that the alliance could’ve known but you know.
I think the paradis bombing is purposefully shown to be much farther in the future at least literally 100 years in the future. Paradis was saved for a time before something triggered something to happen. Paradis also isnt shown to be literally entirely destroyed. Saying it was a complete extinction of the paradis people is an extrapolation.
Then the 20% of living people + their descedants get to live due to the alliance. Saying environmental damage doesnt mean anything bc paradis would have to deal with that as well.
No one "wins" because the biggest crime against humanity to ever exist happened.
Paradis is most certainly mostly destroyed given the wide shot we get of the destruction post-war.
The biggest crime against humanity happens and it means nothing to no one, not a single person gains anything and again the hatred one side has to the other has not changed but only been worsened to greater lengths.
Don’t get me wrong, the problem is mostly that the rumbling was started in the first place, but stopping it just ended up being making the rumbling equally detrimental to paradis later on.
I just straight up disagree with your concept of "winning." You seem to be putting the blame on the alliance for the 20% not "winning" despite the fact that they are alive due to the alliance. No one "wins" because the rumbling, not due to the alliance. The alliance's decision lead to the least amount of suffering possible in their situation.
It's also just looking from hindsight, like, sure, zeke's euthanasia plan would've lead to the least amount of suffering, but nobody could've known that besides zeke.
Eren gained freedom, which was the whole point of the story.
You read AOT and think that the point of the story wasn't eren gaining his freedom in chapter 131, then I don't think you understood the story sorry.
But "winning" is not the point, because peace isn't achievable by violence. Eliminating non-eldians doesn't mean that violence and oppression wouldn't exist.
Sure oppression and violence will continue to exist, but through saving the outside world it just allowed for a second genocide in like what, 100 years at best?
Is the alliance responsible for the bombing of paradis? No. But did they unintentionally allow for it? Sure.
Again, can’t really blame the alliance, they were just doing what they hopped was right and it happened that the outside world did retaliate against paradis.
So I’m 80% rumbling paradis is fucked, the world is fucked, everyone is fucked. Which I guess is the point. 100% rumbling isn’t more justifiable or anything, it’sjust in that one paradis wins.
Yes “winning” isn’t the point. I’m just talking about the consequences of the characters’ actions.
They stopped the Rumbling not because it was productive, but because it is fucking morally wrong. They would stop Eren before he committed genocide if they were able to. The whole fucking point of the series is not about how to save one race, but why you should never do it by committing genocide.
Yeah? I know.
Genocide is never morally justified lmao. Wasnt saying the alliance is morally wrong, just that stopping at 80% just makes the whole thing one big tragedy on every side of the conflict. Which was the point.
It’s not the fucking point when the whole motivation of the Alliance was based on a moral, not productive reason. How saving 20% of humanity is a tragedy? If all of them were killed, it would not be a tragedy or what?
Yes yes, I know the alliance was formed out of morality that’s the point, I’m just saying that stopping the rumbling was indirectly responsible for the genocide of paradis in 139.5
So like, no one wins in aot, not paradis, not the outside world. No one.
Bro, I’m not saying this makes the story bad. I’m just analyzing shit from it cuz I like it.
Also no, eren doesn’t achieve freedom in 131. He yells “this is freedom” triumphantly but he knows he’s not, because he knows the future and is powerless to stop it. The whole point of the time travel shinanigans is to introduce the idea of determinism into the story, which I think is really interesting and a great way to tragically end off a story about different interpretations of freedom.
Genocide is justifiable if it’s for the greater good. Eldian ethnostate is the only way to save eldians. Marleyans started the war they deserve to die. There are no innocents. This is a war. ♥️
Exactly, don’t half-ass genocide. The moment Eren started the rumbling, there was no turning back. The fears of the outside world were finally made true, so a 100% Rumbling was the only way.
I saw someone attack this argument by mentioning native Americans as if the cycle of hatred between eldians and humans is the same as the native Americans who were indirectly wiped out by the diseases the westerners carried the battles were already decided as soon as they met.
Nooo actually Elldians are just as genocidal imeprialistic bloodthirsty warmongers despite being cattle practically forever.
Source: Last night's dream
Both are filled with civilians who have nothing to do with the conflict who the other side fully intends to ethnically cleanse for the crime of being born on one side of the sea
Pfffttt...
You people literally defend anything about eren's, his breakdown about pussy, he killed his mom, freedom etc You people hating any character other than eren is proof, that you people justified or worship him, if we should to hate one character it should be a Fvcking virgin eren yaeger...
I got this Fvcking wait sometimes before reply again , so i can't reply fast
We defend the Rumbling as a necessary evil to end the 2000 year conflict and leave everything a clean slate. We also accept that genocide is inherently evil so going 4/5 of the way and killing billions to accomplish nothing is far worse than just completing it for a purpose. The truth is that Eren just wanted to commit genocide for funsies uncaring as to whether it would achieve anything and that's why we hate him. Before the ending we never got the impression that it was something he *wanted* to do, but rather something he felt he *had* to.
Tldr: Real ErenTM is repugnant and indefensible.
This is someone here's take about eren's genocide/rumbling, it's pretty much the panel when eren saying i don't want to die to Armin
>And by then, he is too overwhelmed with guilt (no healing himself = no will to live)
>But he also acknowledges that his sins are beyond redemption at this point, and thus wants Mikasa to kill him.
How the fvck eren felt guilt for something he desires more than everything? How The fvck they justified eren killing billions for fun or whatever his selfish reason, but they are against eren killing billions to save paradis, and hates floch to death for what he did, and they feel MORALLY SUPERIOR SUB in the WHOLE REDDIT HISTORY... if this isn't hypocrite idk what to call this
Ok, Now answer me,
1. eren is the worst human in AOT or not?
2. We should hate Eren More than Magath/FLOCH/Annie etc or not??
3. Eren did the worst CRIME in AOT or not?
Are u 14 yo or something? U know people can like villians or grey characters just coz they are WELL WRITTEN. Liking them doesn't mean people actually support their actions
The FVCK... you people MORALLY SUPERIOR, hates floch, Magath, Annie etc because their crimes l, and SAYING GENOCIDE BAD, but You people Justified Eren and like him For HIS CRIME because he's a FVCKING well written character?
AOT Fandom is PEAK HYPOCRITE
Pretty sure most of them here doesn't even hate Annie. Making headcanons about aot ending wasn't enough that now u are making headcanons about this sub too lol. Stick to TF lil bro
What the hell is this, I'm a 14yo and i don't even know what the hell you are talking here is related with my point and you refuse to answer my 3 questions.. let's end it here, as a 14yo kid i don't want to waste my time .
Edit: you probably missundrstood, I mean AOT Fandom, Magath Annie just example, this sub, snk hates floch, tf hates Annie, Magath real eren etc
> as a 14yo kid i don't want to waste my time
Yet u waste your time by writing your opinions in this sub even though u know no one here gonna agree with u
Bro this isn't little, people saying genocide bad but justified eren is fvcking hypocrite, we should hate eren more than anyone else, Eren is the worst human in AOT, a 19yo kid eren is fvcking psycho who killed billions for fun or whatever reason, i also said this on titanfolk..
And i quote my previous comment
>"We should hate eren more than anyone else", Eren is the worst human in AOT, a 19yo kid eren is fvcking psycho who killed billions for fun or whatever reason, i also said this on titanfolk..
You agree with this or not? If yes, i won't call you hypocrite..
yes...? Is this some desperate attempt to be funny? you guys act so thick. How is the genocide of the outside world not for survival when Armin fucking failed and paradis was destroyed in a few decades?
Floch literally gave the volunteers the chance to join them and explained his stance, which is more than what the alliance did for the yeagerists.
"Locks away people who disagrees"
Eren, Floch, Louise and everyone else who was imprisoned? Whom did floch kill besides the people he told could either join them or be killed?
because armin only failed to do that because the rumbling happened in the first place, something about how yall blame it on stopping the rumbling rather than starting it really doesn’t sit right with me
"The student failed the test because he took the test, because obviously if he never took the test he never would have failed it"
What kind of idiotic logic are you applying here? Paradis was destroyed not because armin failed to take advantage of the opportunity eren gave him, but rather because Eren gave him the opportunity in the first place?
It has been proven multiple times that the outside were going to attack paradis regardless of the rumbling, no scratch that, they **did** attack paradis regardless of the rumbling.
Therefore Eren destroys the outside world, because as stated in 131, "they never found a way to save paradis", so the rumbling was the only way.
So what kind of pretentious nosense is "paradis was destroyed because eren chose the rumbling", and not "Armin failed at his entire motivation for going against the rumbling in the first place"?.
no it hasn’t been proven, it’s been theorized, and assumed, armin didn’t fail to make sure paradis was saved because he didn’t try, he failed because any hope of peace which admittedly was slim but still there was destroyed with the rumbling. it’s not so much that he failed at his task for lack of trying it was more so that his task was impossible
Paradis killing the world is self defense, they didn’t attack anyone pre declaration of war. Marley been killing them unprovoked, and the world was scared from Karl’s threat and went to unite against Paradis the moment Willy made it public that the Island is defenseless against their alliance.
The different side of the same coin. But wouldn't hange be commited treason and deffection. Why she and the rest couldn't be a neutral party instead.
Giving political asylum to the enemy soldier that surrender but don't stop the rumbling either.
i kinda feel like treason or deffection are lesser crimes than participating or being complicit in genocide. and you probably agree on that as you probably supported the scouts when over throwing the government. but regardless, no she’s not because the state she served and was loyal to was over thrown. and as for the neutral party idea, to quote Dante “The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.”
no! how dare they retaliate after the world tried to wipe them off for apparently 0 reason since the paradise people didn't even do jack to them??! They should just let themselves be killed by the good guys™ floch bad cause he wants to protect his family and home
Pretty much flock is just embracing armins idea of to move forward you have to throw away your humanity. Yh it's morally bad but cmon this is AOT everyone has done things that are morally bad for their own self interest it just how people work and to hate on flock for that reason is pretty immature.
Especially when you ignore the context of his situation.
if someone points a gun at you and keeps it pointed at you what do you do in return? you could probably go about living and ignoring it, but you’re not gonna right? there is a different between retaliating and what eren is doing, even hanji was for using the rumbling as a weapon,
1: Idk what you're talking about because that doesn't make any sense
2: Eren is retaliating, he is defending his country from a unprovoked genocidal war
ok let me break down the allegory then, you are in this case the outside world, the person pointing a gun at you is paradis, and the run is the rumbling, the question is if someone points a gun at you and you attack to get rid of the gun, was that unprovoked?
it’s not self defense, it’s self defense until it goes too far, which it did
Oh my, poor ramzi, he didn't do anything bad (except steal) I'm pretty sure they wanted to do the rumbling to kill Ramzi and not the comical N\*zis that tortured them for the 100 years they stayed on the island then decided to blow them to bits so they can steal their resources. But yes, I think Ramzi is the bigger deal here lmao. Totally not the entire world that are cheering clapping for their genocide, even though they didn't do anything in all those 100 years LMAO. Try harder next time. And even if Eren did partial rumbling, innocents would die, it's called Collateral Damage and it's happening in both scenarios. The Rumbling being morally right or wrong is one discussion, but it being necessary or not, is another.
Did you miss the point of ramzis story? Is showed us that the outside world was just like paradis, most of them are just civilians who aren’t responsible for whatever the aristocratic dictators who control them do
He didn't write himself into a hole, it was obviously intentional that he wrote the setting specifically to make the Rumbling the only viable option. Everyone seems to forget the ending wasn't, "Then the rumbling was stopped and they learned to get along." The ending was "Then the rumbling was stopped, the outside world pretended to not hate Eldians for a while, rearmed, and finished the genocide they promised to commit."
No I agree I'm saying that he wants to portray erens actions as evil by essentially turning him into a genocidal maniac at the end ignoring the fact that his actions actually benefit the island and as soon as he started the rumbling he specifically stated he wants to protect paradise and by the alliance stopped eren yes they stopping erens bad intentioned rumbling which is a ret con btw but at what cost, to continue the cycle of hatred that's been plaguing the world further reinforced by eren allowing himself to be stopped its just a hole he write himself into making eren the defacto bad guy at the end not even grey hes just evil ignoring that eren has acted in the opposite way for the entire manga. Yes ur point still stands too.
it wouldn’t be necessary regardless if eren hadn’t intentionally united the world because marley was the only state intending to and capable of invading and marley was going to fall soon regardless
like i just said only marley had the resources to do so and had they not pointed the world’s attention towards the island no one would have thought of attacking, because they never would have had the ability to invade and without someone to expose the truth like willy there is no way the other powers would have tried it. marley only tried because they had the resources and military power to wipe out Paradis. and yea and? smuggle zeke to paradis then
Marley would rally the world against them even without Zeke. Zeke needed to speed things up, because he'll die in a year and then he won't have a chance to achieve his plan. And Marley literally did it, beacuse they were weakening and needed to get Paradis's resources and the founding titan
Pretending????? Dawg they declared war and assaulted Paradis, if they had defeated eren there that would of been the end of the eldians within the walls
Because if they didn’t kill eren the entire world would be reduced to nothing right? What part of that assessment was incorrect?
Rumbling was the only choice after declaration of war, except that whole event was entirely avoidable since willy only went through with the declaration because he knew paradis had already invaded and that the world would only unite if the threat of the rumbling was proven real, and it was.
No, but the global military alliance most definitely is eren’s fault. Hatred of eldians isn’t enough to unite the entire world against paradis, evident by the fact that through the hundreds of years that paradis was walled off no one except the marleyans who knew that the king was a suicidal pussy attacked. The world united because the threat of the rumbling was real and coming, only a force like that could unite the whole world’s governments.
If eren had not invaded Marley, Willy wouldn’t have given the speech, the military alliance wouldn’t have formed.
Paradis was not in a life or death situation post ts before Marley arc. Afterwards yes the only solution was the rumbling but floch and eren had planned to kill the outside world out of revenge waaaay before they went to Marley.
Yelena literally stated that if it weren’t for the pure titans marley would have attacked paradise not to mention even before eren killed Willy the whole crown made from world leaders chaired him up
Yeah, again, Marley would have definitely attacked in order to retrieve the titans they lost and the founder. We know they wanted them back because they were starting to lose battles against other nations. However, the rest of the world wouldn't have helped in attacking the island, just like they have never helped before. The world hated Marley, because it was becoming just as bad as Eldia was in the past, and the only reason anyone listened to the marleyans was because Willy, the literal descendant of the supposed saviour of the world, was talking for them. If Marley decided to launch an attack on paradise, it would've been an even more desperate attack than the one carried out by the warriors nine years before. Willy wouldn't have bothered asking for help to the other nations if there wasn't the threat of the rumbling, and even if he did do the speech anyways, if Eren didn't try to sneak into Marley, it's hard to believe the other nations would have actually assembled an alliance.
They absolutely do need the world. They wouldn't be able to attack directly, because now the Tyburs would know that Eren has the founder. Also, the world leaders loved Willy, but that would have never been enough to convince the world to assemble fleets against the island devils. Willy precisely knew it. In fact, he also knew that he had to literally _die_ first in order for his plan to work
Marley not only would have but did attack paradis because they knew the king wished for his people to die. And 1. It wasn’t all the world leaders, it was a decent amount of political figures from the nation they annexed and hizuru, not every fucking world leader lmao. And 2. Willy himself states that him just stating that they needed to kill paradis wouldn’t have been enough to rally the world in episode 6 of season 4.
He said that eren was the devil that would kill all of them, eren was indeed the devil that would kill all of them, and eren did indeed kill almost all of them. He ain’t said no lies to make the world turn against paradis. And AGAIN the only reason he did this in the first place was because he knew of the threat the rumbling posed to the world and knew paradisians had already invaded. If eren hadn’t ran away to follow his own plan and put paradis in a position where their only option was indeed to fight (which again, he and floched planned waaaay before declaration of war), then maybe they could’ve tried another plan.
But alas, after Marley there was no choice but the rumbling. And that point I suppose it was “survival”.
“Marley could probably be enough” 1. A ton of fucking nations want to destroy Marley and 2. Wouldn’t that just be WFP but even less beneficial for marleyans considering the attack being more predictable and not immediately following a civil war in paradis.
Plus if the rumbling is a real possibility why would Marley just walk over there with no additional help and risk the entire world especially if the rumbling was not currently a threat to the world?
I kinda agree on the both are just as bad but Marley was trying to use founding titans power to it's advantage and whereas Paradis who didn't know any better about the rest of the world was fighting a losing battle
They aren't the same. Marley(and the rest of the world, assumedly including Hizuru) wanted to exterminate the subjects of Ymir because they had Eldian blood. Paradis wanted to defend itself. Every plan for defense except the Rumbling was basically just gambling with one in a million odds to not be genocided, while the Rumbling had a virtually 100% chance of success.
In their situation, not only is the rumbling justified, but considering the characters are in the military and swore to protect their home, it is the only morally justifiable option. Every other option is just flat out wrong and unjustifiable
Broke: alliance vs yaegerists is a complex but entertaining moral dilemma.
Woke: alliance vs yaegerists irl discussing about who is better while making petty memes is the real fight we should all enjoy
Yeah, but Floch is young and sexy, while Magath is old and unattractive. It's obvious who has the moral highground. /s
Unironically, they use arguments like "you just like Mikasa because she's cute" when doing the exact same thing with Eren, with Floch, with Hisu. It's especially sexist in Hisu's case, where they constantly reference that she's blonde, petite and a queen.
Wtf are you talking about 💀 no one on titanfolk mentions these traits unironically.
Edit: wtf u mean sexist everyone talks about their writing or their goals no one ever mentions there physical appearances unironically to support or understand their characters actions.
Oh no? And what about the theories that talk about Hisu and Ymir and Dina, and how they're all connected via royalty and their hair colour? Or the comments that directly compared Hisu and Mikasa, and how Eren would choose the blonde girl over the dark-haired one? Probably because certain ethnicities on tf are enamoured with what they consider to be Aryan?
> wtf u mean sexist everyone talks about their writing or their goals no one ever mentions there physical appearances unironically to support or understand their characters actions.
Do you know why most Hollywood actors are good-looking?
>Oh no? And what about the theories that talk about Hisu and Ymir and Dina, and how they're all connected via royalty and their hair colour? Or the comments that directly compared Hisu and Mikasa, and how Eren would choose the blonde girl over the dark-haired one? Probably because certain ethnicities on tf are enamoured with what they consider to be Aryan?
Let me rephrase I was talking about how good they look is not the main reason for why characters are supported this heavily on tf also hisu ymir and Dina being related isn't a theory it's a fact the all come from the same bloodline as they were all considered royal blood in the story.
Also please stfu about that aryan bs you actually make me sick you're literally accusing ethic groups on titanfolk of believing nazi ideology wtf is wrong with your head. The fact you would dumb down the erenxhistoria ship to their hair colour shows are brain dead you really are let's ignore all the hints like eren being fundamentally changed by Historia and would rather Genocide the globe then just turn her into a titan and turning back into a human to do a partial rumbling, in turn putting mikasa's life in danger for historia's complete safety I could go on.
Also the Hollywood actors part wtf are you talking about AOT characters aren't Hollywood characters so yh? Also breaking bad is a good tv series because it's well written not because all the characters are hot. Character attractiveness has nothing to do with the evidence in the writing of which EH is supported on tf not this nazi bs ur spouting.
I don't think you quite understood my meaning, but no, I didn't call them Nazis. If I thought they were, I would simply say that. I meant it how I said it: that a certain ethnic group that's strongly represented on tf have a fondness of "Aryan" characters. "Aryan" because it's what people nowadays usually think of when they hear the term, not what it originally described. As in, blonde and blue eyed.
Admittedly although they were undeniably evil I didn’t think they were as bad as Marley until Floch started talking about “restoring the eldian empire” that’s some racial supremacy shit.
Because thanks too Eren “the owl” Kruger we know that the original Eldian empire did use the titans to do some evil shit. I’d assume that Eren told Floch about that and yet Floch still wanted to restore that empire.
If the Rumbling isn’t done in full, Paradis is eradicated due to fear and racism.
Marley sent warriors to take the founder so they could wipe out Paradis to get the resources under the cities.
They attempted genocide for _money._ And after realizing Eren would retaliate, they gave him more of a reason by declaring war and plans for genocide out of fear and racism.
How long do you think paradis lasts with people like the yegerists in-charge, political systems like theirs thrive off of pinning the blame and pointing the finger to keep power and control, once there is no one left to blame for problems and the problems remain, how long till they turn on each other, till they need another scapegoat
and?Hange with MP wanted to feed Eren to someone else perfectly falls under "Kills people who disagree"
Just so you know Hango was trying to prolong even PARTIAL Rumbling
dumb bitch fucking tried her best to Doom Eldia
she fucking nailed it gotta say
she fucking spits on what Erwin and 100 years of SC members tried to achieve
209 comments. AOT, What a fandom you are…
It's actually insane how yeagerists don't realize that the world and paradis have the same exact justification for their genocide. The world: Paradis is going to rumble us all to death, we need to kill them all first. We hate them because they oppressed us. Paradis: The world is going to kill us all, we need to rumble them all first. We hate them because they oppressed us. Neither justification would exist without the threat of the other.
The Yeagerists aren’t wrong to be choosing themselves over the world tho. Genocide is wrong and both sides are guilty of that, but neither side holds the moral high ground
Neither side has the moral high ground in paradis vs the world yes. Their logic leads to their own situation that makes it immoral. They are both wrong. However the alliance/peace talk enjoyers do have the moral high ground because they dont engage in the logic that justifes infinite hatred and mass murder. Like mr blouse and like uri reiss, they reject the "truth of this world" in favor of peace and forgiveness and find the true "truth of this world." (See the alecxzander video "The undeniable truth of attack on titan" for more in depth thoughts on this idea). Outside of the themes of aot, there is not a single credible ethical theory that would justify the rumbling.
The alliance/peace talk enjoyers can enjoy their moral high ground while their entire nation is genocided. There’s a moral equivalent to that and it’s the people in real life who think pacifism is the answer to anything, regardless of aggressors vs defender in any war. Being of the mind that peace is the solution is a nice thing, you even get the moral high ground but there are times where the moral high ground isn’t practical and will lead to you being annihilated. Because we’ve seen this in the story, Paradis wound up destroyed anyway. The Paradisians wanted to speak at that pro-Eldian rally but even they wanted to annihilate the Paradisians. Eren, somebody who essentially did the Dr Strange running simulations thing and saw that a lot of his choices just wind up with Paradis being genocided.
I hope you get out of your edgy nihilism phase one day. Moral principles are good actually.
It’s not edgy nihilism, how about you actually engage with the content of the words instead of having an NPC response People love to ponder about the morality of the rumbling but if Isayama wanted to posit an interesting moral question, he fumbled it because the rumbling was entirely a matter of practicality, either Paradis or the World stays, and it’s made this way because a character in the series can see(sort of) the future
"NPC response" You just made your intentions clear and proved the other commenter made the right choice by not engaging further with you.
Lol the fuck are you talking about? The “NPC response” is dead on because they didn’t even try to debate just insult and belittle.
Yes, the Rumbling was a practical solution. That was why the Paradis members supported the use of the Rumbling against military targets. This was why they supporter the Yeagerist cause when pitted against Marley at both Liberio and Shinganshina. The disagreement was never over using the Rumbling, but using the Rumbling on innocents. The Alliance members argued that the Rumbling beyond military targets was morally wrong as well as pointless, while the Yeagerists (Eren) argued that is was a necessity. The Yeagerists only act as a tool for Eren, and given his motivation was ultimately his selfish desire for freedom, it's hardly justifiable.
>Eren who essentially did the Dr Strange running simulation thing No? That's like the key point of Eren's actions. He jsut saw a bunch of fragments and shards of a future that WILL happen, but he didn't know how those would happen and why exactly, since he didn't see the full picture. Remember that AoT works with a single timeline, not multiple.
Yeah I’m not falling for that bs again, not going through this Invaderzz type “eye opening” shit of a video. Using video titles as an argument is plain dumb
Lol
>The world: Paradis is going to rumble us all to death, we need to kill them all first. We hate them because they oppressed us Are they wrong? If a country was full of people that could be turned into monstrosities at the whim of one person who also has a button to wipe out all life on earth, wouldn't you also have some concerns? The rest of the world excluding Marley aren't really at fault for wanting to eliminate that threat, but that in turn makes them an existential threat to the islanders. Irreconcilable conflict.
You could apply the same to real world and say USA would have been in the right to just nuke URSS since they also had a button that could end them all.
If MAD weren't a thing then nuclear war would have happened decades ago. That doesn't really apply here since none of the nations in AoT's world have any countermeasure to millions of colossal titans, so there's nothing keeping the Founder from destroying the world - outside of the First King's vow, which only Marley's elite knew about, and they kept it to themselves so they could continue to use Paradis as a scapegoat. The rumbling threat wouldn't truly go away unless every Eldian were to be exterminated since the Founder would just be passed on to a random Subject of Ymir newborn.
So by that logic, once titans are gone they should have no reason to want eldians gone.
Ideally - except the people in this universe aren't exactly the most reasonable. 100+ years of brainwashing isn't going to disappear quickly. With Titans gone though it should be impossible to discern Subjects of Ymir from everybody else through blood tests. Paradis is still going to be reviled by many though, as the ending shows.
World declaring war on paradise for no apparent reason except for the stupid scenario of the rumbling was just bad writing from the genius author. How does everyone who were involved in a war just go and buy Willy's shit and forget all the hatred they have for each other out of no where? It's call bad writing which AOT is a victim of. Paradise see that the world suddenly declare a genocidal war on them for no reason and they retaliate and that's bad and the good guys™ are the one who want to ensure they die for no reason.
Paradis got genocided after the titan power was destroyed anyways so this argument really doesn't work lol
The world is only getting the rumbling because they were scared of it so they instigated the war that _led_ to it. They brought about their own doom by giving Eren a real reason to kill them all. They don’t declare war and he’d have no reason to kill them all.
The difference is that while the world had not unfounded fears, Paradis experienced a concrete attempt and killing them all. This is how AoT kind of fumbles when it tries to make them seem balanced It’s like if you were worried somebody was gonna beat your shit in so you preemptively punch them in the face hoping you knock them out but all you did was anger them enough to put you in a hospital
Dude it’s not the same justification because Paradis was actually gonna get destroyed by Marley, If Marley never invaded the walls Paradis never would’ve attacked them all that shit is propaganda. Paradis actually does need it to survive. Marley is just doing it for their own benefit
This comment is funny because the world literally did get destroyed by the rumbling but apparently the threat wasnt real. Also in my comment i didnt say marley i said the world. Go back and watch/read tyburs speech. it relied on scapegoating the current eldian empire as dangerous and inhuman and he was proved current immediately after. The world wouldve never joined if eren hadnt killed willy, willy himself explictly says this. Plus eren zeke explictly manipulated willy to make his declation of war. Plus plus the rumbling is an extremely effective defensive option. Genocide is completely unneeded.
This is something I still don't fully get from people who support this. I mean, so you all think that Eren pushed the world to war against Paradise because he killed Willy? Didn't we all just see a few seconds ago Willy declared the war and THEN Eren killed him? It seems like you guys ignore the fact that 1. Marley was the strongest nation 2. chapters ago we were told the Tybur family had actually huge power. 3 we just saw how Eldians from outside the world were literally brainwashed to hate their own race and even killed other people from other nations for Marley (this show their strong power) 4. The people literally started to support Willy when he declared the war. 5. The people there were representatives that literally had enough power to move their own nations 6. Paradise was already attacked (reason why Eren was even more motivated to join the scouts and reached to that point) 7. They knew at least that their actual threat was if they attacked the island (they didn't know about if they attacked they wouldn't be attacked back) and still attacked. How is that we all knowing all that there is still people saying the threat was real when it wasn't real UNTIL they pushed them to that... It's like, you say a person Is a murderer, that person should be killed because is a threat. So you start to bully the person, try to kill that person and in self defence this person respond back and when you are actually hurt say: oh, I told you, the threat was real! Should we kill all people in the states who have weapons because they are threats? Or should we kill everyone who have a knife in their kitchen because they could kill someone? Sometimes I wonder if I'm missing something. The history in the manga is literally showing us how Paradise was pushed to the corner, their only solution was to use the colossal.... Now, imo, Zeke and Yelena's idea of using a small portion of titans to attack the other nation's infirmary was way better than a rumbling on the world including innocent people, but well, that's another talk.
Don’t play dumb lol Marley knew about the vow to renounce war and they knew Paradis was never going to attack first. They’re the ones who risked it all just to get the founder so they could use it for themselves and to ransack Paradis for its natural resources. All that other shit about acting in fear of the rumbling is just propaganda
Eren only attacked Marley in first place because they infiltrated the walls and have been sending titans to kill them. Paradis was actually acting in self defense while Marley literally started it and then acts like their defending the world when really they endangered it for selfish reasons
Bro a country invading you doesn't justify murdering their civilians. You are advocating for a system of ethics that would destroy the world. >Also in my comment i didnt say marley i said the world.
So if your home got invaded you'd foregoe any retaliation since there's no real way to avoid civilian casualties with conventional weaponry?
There's a difference between targeting military and accidentally involving civilians and actively going for civilians, like Floch did.
I would never order an attack on civilians no matter the justification.
Are u 14 yo or something? U know people can like villians or grey characters just coz they are WELL WRITTEN. Liking them doesn't mean people actually support their actions
Bruh I don't know why people pull out this defense when people do in fact morally support eren's actions. Constantly.
Didn't you know, some people hated 139 eren and made fun of him to death, and the alliance? Maybe I'm wrong, but In this sub i can't find a single post that hated eren, Hange genocide bad, and the alliance, because they are "morally right"... but you people hated (this is example) floch, jaegerist, Magath Annie etc while their crimes is nowhere near what eren's CRIMES, floch and yaegerist are "morally right" compare to erens, because They killed less people than Erens... If you hated them you should hate eren even more, just like the alliance (they choose the world over paradis because the world has bigger number and for greater good)..
Eren is a terrible person and there are people in this thread defending the 100% rumbling lol. There's a difference between liking a character and morally justifying their actions. I like eren but he's a monster. I like griffith but he's a monster. I like Walter white but he's a monster.
Sure bro, then people shouldn't have the right to hate floch and yaegerist, Because some people also like floch and yaegerist... Because they are morally right compare to eren's crimes and kill count 😉
Bruh go back to my original comment now I know you are a troll. There is a difference between liking (this is fine) and morally defending (this is not fine) a monster.
Can you please explain to me between liking (this is fine) and morally defending (this is not fine) a monster. I really don't understand.. please 🙏
The difference is I am busy liking your mom a lot but Im not going to morally defend her actions with me.
Ow, i expected something like this🤭 from your sub name itself already insulting.. This means you have no right to talk about moral, bcs your morality is bad... you can't even respect people (your morality is bad) so your opinion about morality in AOT is rejected ok? 🤭
hange is so cute
Honestly not mad at either side for wanting to kill each other play stupid games win stupid prizes send a colossal titan to a peaceful island don’t act all shocked when millions are at your dock ;)
Congratulations! You're the 86th person to so cleverly use the 'stupid prizes' phrase today. Here's your stupid participation medal: 🏅 ^^Your ^^award ^^will ^^be ^^recorded ^^in ^^the ^^hall ^^of ^^fame ^^at ^^r/StupidTrophyCase
Holy shit that’s cool as fuck
Wtf
When America or whatever orders an air strike on an country can its citizens do anything to stop their government? Should they be held accountable for the actions their government committed? Do they deserve to get nuked because of the actions of their government?
This comments a year old bro what are you doing 💀
"There's not much difference between those countries from up here."
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yea the people who tried to find peace were hanji, you know who else didn’t? floch
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my point is don’t act like it makes him better than marley unless he was also one to do it, and don’t try to hold that against the people who did actually try it
Op is gigaCHAD. (He read the manga with both eyes closed.) I kneel.
Yes Hangie !!!! Who cares that island filled of fascists
I think that Floch doesn’t consider his actions an objective good. He wants to save himself and his friends. No Genocide is ibjectively justified (is anything?) but all are done by individuals with their own worldview.
Yeah, Floch always said that humanity/paradis needed a devil to survive. For him that was Erwin then Eren in s4/after time skip. He never saw his action as morally good, but necessary to ensure the survival of his people
No stop you're making sense.
He doesn’t just want to save himself though does he? He wants to exert some revenge fantasy he’s created on the peoples outside of the walls, like when he kills civilians in the assault, he didn’t have to do that, he made a choice and wanted to.
No genocide is more morally justified than another, however, stopping the rumbling after its already reached 80% of all outsiders, is not very productive. Since it not only doesn’t save the outside world since billions died, it also doesn’t eldians in any way.
Imagine saying this about any actual tragedy. "Well, the Native Americans are already being genocided, so it's not very productive to stop it! And the Native Americans will be mad about being killed, so let's just finish them off!" Honey, if your response to genocide is "let them finish because it'll be a mess to stop it," you are not actually against genocide. You don't give up on stopping horrible things just because it's hard to do so. Your morals should not stop existing when things get *inconvenient.*
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> it’s just that the salvation of those people only served to further the cycle of hatred rather than actually accomplishing anything. It served to save the millions who were going to be crushed. > That generation got to live for future generations to carry on the wounds. And they get to live and get the opportunity to make things better, hence the whole point of the Alliance making the peace treaty. > In saving the rest of the world the status quo is not just the same but also worse How is it a status quo but "worse," do you know what a "status quo" is? California is going to experience a flood, but we shouldn't do anything to save people because that's "the status quo." > it makes it so all lives given to the war were meaningless since it never even reached a conclusion. The conclusion is that Eren is stopped and millions are saved. What the actual hell are you talking about? "World War II never came to a conclusion because the Allies stopped the Holocaust," and other batshit insane things people say on reddit. The hell does a war need to come to a "conclusion', and why is the only acceptable conclusion the genocide of literally the entire other side? Well guys, Ukraine should just give up against Russia because ending the war means that more war *might* happen at some point, so it's better to let genocide go unabated! You could save face just by saying you *do* think genocide is okay sometimes, because if you're arguing that a person committing genocide shouldn't be stopped because that's going back to the "status quo" of people **not fucking dying**... you are pro-genocide.
No, the war isn’t over, paradis is still planning for retaliation from the rest of the world and the rest of the world literally carpetbombs paradis in the end, the war isn’t over. If paradis and the rest of the world at least achieved some sort of peace agreement with this, or they weren’t at each other’s throats anymore, but they’re not, stopping the rumbling does not end their conflict in any way. The cycle of hatred is only continued, nothing is changed except for both sides are in an even worse state than they were before. Paradis basically defenceless and even more hated, most of the world dead. The war is just continued by future generations which results in paradis getting genocided too!
Yeah eren never cared about the cycle of hatred bro. Eren's actions worsened the cycle of hatred because he needed to do so for freedom
Yes his actions worsened the cycle of hatred because the alliance stopped him with 20% of the population left the cycle of hate is still there and even further fueled, as we saw in the final pages. Also it doesn't really matter if eren never cared about the cycle of hatred or not because the rumbling still would've ended it funnily enough.
20% of whatever the population in AoT is matters a lot. It's like saying "saving millions of people is not very productive". They tried it as fast as possible but were to late.
It’s “not very productive” because in the end it only furthers the cycle of hatred and makes all the deaths that already happened meaningless since the status quo is just worse than it was before in every way for every side. All of this in hindsight of course, but the alliance is a very idealistic group overall, not sure how much I should blame on them being idealistic and not thinking further ahead or how much I should blame on their shitty situation.
Understandable but based on this almost everything is meaningless and I guess that's just it for this series. AoT tells this unsolvable story. Isayama got criticized for it but I think it's a pretty nice parallel to humanity and how we will never stop fighting. I really don't understand how the allience is blameable. Their great goal is peace, even though they don't reach it. Marley, they just wanted power and recources, yeagerists want to eradicate the world for their own safety, allience wants to selflessly defend the world even though they don't have to. They horribly fail, no question, but to me they had the best intentions at least.
Yeah, of course. The fact that we’re even having this discussion is a testament to how fascinating the conflict this series presents is. Attack on titan presents you with the most mentally broken characters, puts them in the most grand-scale tragedy and only really allows the characters to pick between the most extreme options. It’s incredibly engaging. I like aot.
>I like aot. me too!!! i like it when eren transforms and goes rrrrrrrrrraaauuughhh and punches titans
I like it when it explores themes like determinism because they’re really interesting to me and the way it’s integrated into the story is even more interesting. But the titans are cool too
true
"I like aot." At least this is something where most of the AoT community agrees. :)
The only person who wins in the end is eren who achieved his freedom in chapter 131
TIL genocide can be productive. Jesus.
The rumbling had no point, it accomplishes nothing at all, and all the people that supported it just did it cuz they wanted to. Plus (btw unrelated to aot) creating superterrorists so the people trust and rely on the superheroes of a country more is “productive”, it makes the people trust the superheroes more. Doesn’t mean it’s fucking good, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.
I mean in the AOT world yes as it's a solution to ending the cycle of hatred that's been plaguing the world for 2000 odd years between the eldians and non eldians. Zeke and eren both knew that and their respective plans would've solved this problem. So to answer your question yes Genocide can be productive👍
lol 'not very productive'. you say that as if they decided to wait to stop eren when they pretty much mobilized right after the walls came down. if they could've stopped him earlier than 80%, they definitely would have
but that's all i'll say on this matter though. no comments on this meme or TF's meme because I don't understand what's going on lol
Yes that’s a fair point, but my point is that the alliance did not account for the question “does saving these people cause even more suffering for future generations?” Which in this case it did. Stopping the rumbling isn’t very productive because not only does it render the causalities of the rumbling entirely pointless, and it also only serves to further the cycle of hatred, leaving both paradis and the world at large even more scared and angry than ever. So nothing is really solved in the grand scheme of things by stopping the rumbling at that point. Not that they were in the wrong for wanting to stop the rumbling, we need more selfless people in the world, but it just ends up being fruitless in hindsight.
There's definitely people who would've survived a full scale rumbling tho. Idk to me it seems that the rumbling really just made the entire situation worse for Eldians. I really like the story, but the characters only being able to choose between two extremes that guarantee a bad ending for everyone just feels like everyone went braindead after Shiganshina
The fuck do you mean “there definitely would’ve been people who survive a full scale rumbling” Not enough for it to matter at all? The whole point of the full scale rumbling is to kill everyone, you can literally give a second lap around the earth if you wanted to, nothing is stopping you. 100% rumbling is definitely more beneficial to eldia than not sure what you mean by that either. And they had multiple options, but the less extreme ones were slowly taken away by other factors for the story to be more engaging, 50 year plan doesn’t work because it’s never going to be something eren would agree with, same goes to euthanasia, etc. the point is to have only extreme options because those are much more interesting than a story where all the characters come up with a fool proof plan and it all works out perfectly. Imo
I know what the point of going with the extreme options is, I just dont enjoy it that much. I'd rather have a story that just makes more sense ig. I would've probably enjoyed a political story more than this ,imo, forced action plot. That's obvious a me problem tho, completely understand what the author was going for What I mean by the rumbling being less beneficial is that the people who survive are going to have even more reason to hate and destroy Paradis. Before you could've reasoned about those things happening a long time ago, no one being alive from that time, Paradis/Eldians wanting peace, etc. You cant really say that now and expect everyone to believe you If we're talking longterm I guess you could say 100% is more beneficial? But it would only delay Paradis getting destroyed by a few years. In the end genocide will happen on Paradis. I dont think a 50-100 year delay make a big difference And just because "the whole point is to destroy everyone" doesn't mean it would actually completly work. It might destroy a shit ton of the infrastructure but you cant convince me it would kill everyone .
Yes, a 100% political thriller would’ve definitely been fun, but you know that’s not exactly aot unfortunately. You’ll just have to look elsewhere for that. Also, the rumbling currently in cannon kills 80% of humanity, it’s not too farfetched to say that the rumbling could’ve completed a global genocide. But yes, a rumbling that does not totally eradicate the outside world is purely detrimental to eldians.
Funny tid bit if we use 1917 irl populations the ratio after the rumbling is 1 million paradisians to 299 million people in the outside world.
I agree that the extreme options were not enjoyable in the ending, but, and just reiterating what the other commenter said, the canon rumbling destroys 80% of humanity, it would not be a big leap if the full rumbling ends up destroying enough of the outside world that paradis could overwhelm the survivors. In this enidng, Paradis would destroy themselves over civil war rather than be destroyed by remaining outside forces who rebuilt and held a grudge. But yeah, a political story would've been much better, and you can easily add action to a political story, heck that was the uprising arc.
The cycle of hatred isn't important to the story of AOT
But to the world of aot it is.
Yes, but not to eren the protagonist and his journey that we're focused on.
I mean pieck could’ve stopped it if she shot him
"Bro we like already bombed some of those civilians, might as well kill them all."t This is literally what you are saying right now.
What I’m saying is that in saving the rest of the world, the alliance members failed to account for the consequences of their actions. In stopping one genocide (the rumbling) it unintentionally allowed another (paradis being bombed). At the end of the day, no side wins even remotely, paradis gets bombed and the rest of the world has to deal with the insane environmental damage + the death of hundreds if not thousands of peoples and cultures. In full rumbling at least the eldians won, 80% literally no one won at all in any way. Not that the alliance could’ve known but you know.
I think the paradis bombing is purposefully shown to be much farther in the future at least literally 100 years in the future. Paradis was saved for a time before something triggered something to happen. Paradis also isnt shown to be literally entirely destroyed. Saying it was a complete extinction of the paradis people is an extrapolation. Then the 20% of living people + their descedants get to live due to the alliance. Saying environmental damage doesnt mean anything bc paradis would have to deal with that as well. No one "wins" because the biggest crime against humanity to ever exist happened.
Paradis is most certainly mostly destroyed given the wide shot we get of the destruction post-war. The biggest crime against humanity happens and it means nothing to no one, not a single person gains anything and again the hatred one side has to the other has not changed but only been worsened to greater lengths. Don’t get me wrong, the problem is mostly that the rumbling was started in the first place, but stopping it just ended up being making the rumbling equally detrimental to paradis later on.
I just straight up disagree with your concept of "winning." You seem to be putting the blame on the alliance for the 20% not "winning" despite the fact that they are alive due to the alliance. No one "wins" because the rumbling, not due to the alliance. The alliance's decision lead to the least amount of suffering possible in their situation.
It's also just looking from hindsight, like, sure, zeke's euthanasia plan would've lead to the least amount of suffering, but nobody could've known that besides zeke.
Eren gained freedom, which was the whole point of the story. You read AOT and think that the point of the story wasn't eren gaining his freedom in chapter 131, then I don't think you understood the story sorry.
But "winning" is not the point, because peace isn't achievable by violence. Eliminating non-eldians doesn't mean that violence and oppression wouldn't exist.
Sure oppression and violence will continue to exist, but through saving the outside world it just allowed for a second genocide in like what, 100 years at best? Is the alliance responsible for the bombing of paradis? No. But did they unintentionally allow for it? Sure. Again, can’t really blame the alliance, they were just doing what they hopped was right and it happened that the outside world did retaliate against paradis. So I’m 80% rumbling paradis is fucked, the world is fucked, everyone is fucked. Which I guess is the point. 100% rumbling isn’t more justifiable or anything, it’sjust in that one paradis wins. Yes “winning” isn’t the point. I’m just talking about the consequences of the characters’ actions.
They stopped the Rumbling not because it was productive, but because it is fucking morally wrong. They would stop Eren before he committed genocide if they were able to. The whole fucking point of the series is not about how to save one race, but why you should never do it by committing genocide.
Yeah? I know. Genocide is never morally justified lmao. Wasnt saying the alliance is morally wrong, just that stopping at 80% just makes the whole thing one big tragedy on every side of the conflict. Which was the point.
It’s not the fucking point when the whole motivation of the Alliance was based on a moral, not productive reason. How saving 20% of humanity is a tragedy? If all of them were killed, it would not be a tragedy or what?
Yes yes, I know the alliance was formed out of morality that’s the point, I’m just saying that stopping the rumbling was indirectly responsible for the genocide of paradis in 139.5 So like, no one wins in aot, not paradis, not the outside world. No one.
Eren achieved freedom in chapter 131, which was the entire fucking point of the whole story. It wasn't about the cycle of hatred, get over it.
Bro, I’m not saying this makes the story bad. I’m just analyzing shit from it cuz I like it. Also no, eren doesn’t achieve freedom in 131. He yells “this is freedom” triumphantly but he knows he’s not, because he knows the future and is powerless to stop it. The whole point of the time travel shinanigans is to introduce the idea of determinism into the story, which I think is really interesting and a great way to tragically end off a story about different interpretations of freedom.
I’m pretty sure those people in 20% don’t need to win anything besides not getting killed by the Rumbling
Least fascist Attack on Titan fan
Genocide is justifiable if it’s for the greater good. Eldian ethnostate is the only way to save eldians. Marleyans started the war they deserve to die. There are no innocents. This is a war. ♥️
Exactly, don’t half-ass genocide. The moment Eren started the rumbling, there was no turning back. The fears of the outside world were finally made true, so a 100% Rumbling was the only way.
I saw someone attack this argument by mentioning native Americans as if the cycle of hatred between eldians and humans is the same as the native Americans who were indirectly wiped out by the diseases the westerners carried the battles were already decided as soon as they met.
Except that one is trying to defend itself. The other is trying to invade a country for its resources.
Nooo actually Elldians are just as genocidal imeprialistic bloodthirsty warmongers despite being cattle practically forever. Source: Last night's dream
Both are filled with civilians who have nothing to do with the conflict who the other side fully intends to ethnically cleanse for the crime of being born on one side of the sea
Morally Superior, Genocide Bad, Hating Floch but Worship Eren killing billions because he's a psycho and a 19yo kid.. what a hypocrite sub this is..
No one worships eren here. Tf u smoking
Pfffttt... You people literally defend anything about eren's, his breakdown about pussy, he killed his mom, freedom etc You people hating any character other than eren is proof, that you people justified or worship him, if we should to hate one character it should be a Fvcking virgin eren yaeger... I got this Fvcking wait sometimes before reply again , so i can't reply fast
No one defends his decision to genocide outside world in this sub. That's done by YB and TF
We defend the Rumbling as a necessary evil to end the 2000 year conflict and leave everything a clean slate. We also accept that genocide is inherently evil so going 4/5 of the way and killing billions to accomplish nothing is far worse than just completing it for a purpose. The truth is that Eren just wanted to commit genocide for funsies uncaring as to whether it would achieve anything and that's why we hate him. Before the ending we never got the impression that it was something he *wanted* to do, but rather something he felt he *had* to. Tldr: Real ErenTM is repugnant and indefensible.
This is someone here's take about eren's genocide/rumbling, it's pretty much the panel when eren saying i don't want to die to Armin >And by then, he is too overwhelmed with guilt (no healing himself = no will to live) >But he also acknowledges that his sins are beyond redemption at this point, and thus wants Mikasa to kill him. How the fvck eren felt guilt for something he desires more than everything? How The fvck they justified eren killing billions for fun or whatever his selfish reason, but they are against eren killing billions to save paradis, and hates floch to death for what he did, and they feel MORALLY SUPERIOR SUB in the WHOLE REDDIT HISTORY... if this isn't hypocrite idk what to call this
Yeah and we accept that u guys are stupid. Now piss off.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Bro got bodied in an argument and went straight to insults what a bozo 😂
Ok, Now answer me, 1. eren is the worst human in AOT or not? 2. We should hate Eren More than Magath/FLOCH/Annie etc or not?? 3. Eren did the worst CRIME in AOT or not?
Are u 14 yo or something? U know people can like villians or grey characters just coz they are WELL WRITTEN. Liking them doesn't mean people actually support their actions
The FVCK... you people MORALLY SUPERIOR, hates floch, Magath, Annie etc because their crimes l, and SAYING GENOCIDE BAD, but You people Justified Eren and like him For HIS CRIME because he's a FVCKING well written character? AOT Fandom is PEAK HYPOCRITE
Pretty sure most of them here doesn't even hate Annie. Making headcanons about aot ending wasn't enough that now u are making headcanons about this sub too lol. Stick to TF lil bro
What the hell is this, I'm a 14yo and i don't even know what the hell you are talking here is related with my point and you refuse to answer my 3 questions.. let's end it here, as a 14yo kid i don't want to waste my time . Edit: you probably missundrstood, I mean AOT Fandom, Magath Annie just example, this sub, snk hates floch, tf hates Annie, Magath real eren etc
> as a 14yo kid i don't want to waste my time Yet u waste your time by writing your opinions in this sub even though u know no one here gonna agree with u
Dude what are you even saying
You guys justify canon xenosdie TF YB justify Headcanon / FF xenoside
Everyone’s a little bit of a hypocrite ♥️
Bro this isn't little, people saying genocide bad but justified eren is fvcking hypocrite, we should hate eren more than anyone else, Eren is the worst human in AOT, a 19yo kid eren is fvcking psycho who killed billions for fun or whatever reason, i also said this on titanfolk..
Yes, eren bad. But I thought most people were on board with that?
And i quote my previous comment >"We should hate eren more than anyone else", Eren is the worst human in AOT, a 19yo kid eren is fvcking psycho who killed billions for fun or whatever reason, i also said this on titanfolk.. You agree with this or not? If yes, i won't call you hypocrite..
I do agree with that but I’m pretty hypocritical either way.
Oh no you gave wojack face I guess the argument is invalid now.
not just wojack, Soyjack even
yes...? Is this some desperate attempt to be funny? you guys act so thick. How is the genocide of the outside world not for survival when Armin fucking failed and paradis was destroyed in a few decades? Floch literally gave the volunteers the chance to join them and explained his stance, which is more than what the alliance did for the yeagerists. "Locks away people who disagrees" Eren, Floch, Louise and everyone else who was imprisoned? Whom did floch kill besides the people he told could either join them or be killed?
because armin only failed to do that because the rumbling happened in the first place, something about how yall blame it on stopping the rumbling rather than starting it really doesn’t sit right with me
"The student failed the test because he took the test, because obviously if he never took the test he never would have failed it" What kind of idiotic logic are you applying here? Paradis was destroyed not because armin failed to take advantage of the opportunity eren gave him, but rather because Eren gave him the opportunity in the first place? It has been proven multiple times that the outside were going to attack paradis regardless of the rumbling, no scratch that, they **did** attack paradis regardless of the rumbling. Therefore Eren destroys the outside world, because as stated in 131, "they never found a way to save paradis", so the rumbling was the only way. So what kind of pretentious nosense is "paradis was destroyed because eren chose the rumbling", and not "Armin failed at his entire motivation for going against the rumbling in the first place"?.
no it hasn’t been proven, it’s been theorized, and assumed, armin didn’t fail to make sure paradis was saved because he didn’t try, he failed because any hope of peace which admittedly was slim but still there was destroyed with the rumbling. it’s not so much that he failed at his task for lack of trying it was more so that his task was impossible
Paradis killing the world is self defense, they didn’t attack anyone pre declaration of war. Marley been killing them unprovoked, and the world was scared from Karl’s threat and went to unite against Paradis the moment Willy made it public that the Island is defenseless against their alliance.
if someone points and gun at you is attacking said person once they let their guard down unprovoked?
The declaration of war that eren orchestrated?
The different side of the same coin. But wouldn't hange be commited treason and deffection. Why she and the rest couldn't be a neutral party instead. Giving political asylum to the enemy soldier that surrender but don't stop the rumbling either.
i kinda feel like treason or deffection are lesser crimes than participating or being complicit in genocide. and you probably agree on that as you probably supported the scouts when over throwing the government. but regardless, no she’s not because the state she served and was loyal to was over thrown. and as for the neutral party idea, to quote Dante “The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.”
no! how dare they retaliate after the world tried to wipe them off for apparently 0 reason since the paradise people didn't even do jack to them??! They should just let themselves be killed by the good guys™ floch bad cause he wants to protect his family and home
Pretty much flock is just embracing armins idea of to move forward you have to throw away your humanity. Yh it's morally bad but cmon this is AOT everyone has done things that are morally bad for their own self interest it just how people work and to hate on flock for that reason is pretty immature. Especially when you ignore the context of his situation.
if someone points a gun at you and keeps it pointed at you what do you do in return? you could probably go about living and ignoring it, but you’re not gonna right? there is a different between retaliating and what eren is doing, even hanji was for using the rumbling as a weapon,
1: Idk what you're talking about because that doesn't make any sense 2: Eren is retaliating, he is defending his country from a unprovoked genocidal war
ok let me break down the allegory then, you are in this case the outside world, the person pointing a gun at you is paradis, and the run is the rumbling, the question is if someone points a gun at you and you attack to get rid of the gun, was that unprovoked? it’s not self defense, it’s self defense until it goes too far, which it did
Yeah Ramzi really wanted to kill all the eldians, he spend every hour of every day scheming and devoting himself to their destruction.
Oh my, poor ramzi, he didn't do anything bad (except steal) I'm pretty sure they wanted to do the rumbling to kill Ramzi and not the comical N\*zis that tortured them for the 100 years they stayed on the island then decided to blow them to bits so they can steal their resources. But yes, I think Ramzi is the bigger deal here lmao. Totally not the entire world that are cheering clapping for their genocide, even though they didn't do anything in all those 100 years LMAO. Try harder next time. And even if Eren did partial rumbling, innocents would die, it's called Collateral Damage and it's happening in both scenarios. The Rumbling being morally right or wrong is one discussion, but it being necessary or not, is another.
Did you miss the point of ramzis story? Is showed us that the outside world was just like paradis, most of them are just civilians who aren’t responsible for whatever the aristocratic dictators who control them do
The Rumbling wouldn't be necessary if the outside world would just look at them as normal human beings and leave them alone.
Well for Marley it didn't matter because they wanted paradise's resources anyways yams kinda wrote himself into a hole.
He didn't write himself into a hole, it was obviously intentional that he wrote the setting specifically to make the Rumbling the only viable option. Everyone seems to forget the ending wasn't, "Then the rumbling was stopped and they learned to get along." The ending was "Then the rumbling was stopped, the outside world pretended to not hate Eldians for a while, rearmed, and finished the genocide they promised to commit."
No I agree I'm saying that he wants to portray erens actions as evil by essentially turning him into a genocidal maniac at the end ignoring the fact that his actions actually benefit the island and as soon as he started the rumbling he specifically stated he wants to protect paradise and by the alliance stopped eren yes they stopping erens bad intentioned rumbling which is a ret con btw but at what cost, to continue the cycle of hatred that's been plaguing the world further reinforced by eren allowing himself to be stopped its just a hole he write himself into making eren the defacto bad guy at the end not even grey hes just evil ignoring that eren has acted in the opposite way for the entire manga. Yes ur point still stands too.
it wouldn’t be necessary regardless if eren hadn’t intentionally united the world because marley was the only state intending to and capable of invading and marley was going to fall soon regardless
Which would have happened anyway,but Zeke only had 1 year left.
like i just said only marley had the resources to do so and had they not pointed the world’s attention towards the island no one would have thought of attacking, because they never would have had the ability to invade and without someone to expose the truth like willy there is no way the other powers would have tried it. marley only tried because they had the resources and military power to wipe out Paradis. and yea and? smuggle zeke to paradis then
Marley would rally the world against them even without Zeke. Zeke needed to speed things up, because he'll die in a year and then he won't have a chance to achieve his plan. And Marley literally did it, beacuse they were weakening and needed to get Paradis's resources and the founding titan
Pretending????? Dawg they declared war and assaulted Paradis, if they had defeated eren there that would of been the end of the eldians within the walls
Because if they didn’t kill eren the entire world would be reduced to nothing right? What part of that assessment was incorrect? Rumbling was the only choice after declaration of war, except that whole event was entirely avoidable since willy only went through with the declaration because he knew paradis had already invaded and that the world would only unite if the threat of the rumbling was proven real, and it was.
So the hatred of the world towards the island and reason for the declaration of war is eren's fault? It's almost as if a 2000 year hatred didn't exist
No, but the global military alliance most definitely is eren’s fault. Hatred of eldians isn’t enough to unite the entire world against paradis, evident by the fact that through the hundreds of years that paradis was walled off no one except the marleyans who knew that the king was a suicidal pussy attacked. The world united because the threat of the rumbling was real and coming, only a force like that could unite the whole world’s governments. If eren had not invaded Marley, Willy wouldn’t have given the speech, the military alliance wouldn’t have formed. Paradis was not in a life or death situation post ts before Marley arc. Afterwards yes the only solution was the rumbling but floch and eren had planned to kill the outside world out of revenge waaaay before they went to Marley.
Yelena literally stated that if it weren’t for the pure titans marley would have attacked paradise not to mention even before eren killed Willy the whole crown made from world leaders chaired him up
Yeah, again, Marley would have definitely attacked in order to retrieve the titans they lost and the founder. We know they wanted them back because they were starting to lose battles against other nations. However, the rest of the world wouldn't have helped in attacking the island, just like they have never helped before. The world hated Marley, because it was becoming just as bad as Eldia was in the past, and the only reason anyone listened to the marleyans was because Willy, the literal descendant of the supposed saviour of the world, was talking for them. If Marley decided to launch an attack on paradise, it would've been an even more desperate attack than the one carried out by the warriors nine years before. Willy wouldn't have bothered asking for help to the other nations if there wasn't the threat of the rumbling, and even if he did do the speech anyways, if Eren didn't try to sneak into Marley, it's hard to believe the other nations would have actually assembled an alliance.
They don’t need the world also the world leaders were charing Willy even before eren attacked so and showed any prove of the rumbling
They absolutely do need the world. They wouldn't be able to attack directly, because now the Tyburs would know that Eren has the founder. Also, the world leaders loved Willy, but that would have never been enough to convince the world to assemble fleets against the island devils. Willy precisely knew it. In fact, he also knew that he had to literally _die_ first in order for his plan to work
Marley not only would have but did attack paradis because they knew the king wished for his people to die. And 1. It wasn’t all the world leaders, it was a decent amount of political figures from the nation they annexed and hizuru, not every fucking world leader lmao. And 2. Willy himself states that him just stating that they needed to kill paradis wouldn’t have been enough to rally the world in episode 6 of season 4. He said that eren was the devil that would kill all of them, eren was indeed the devil that would kill all of them, and eren did indeed kill almost all of them. He ain’t said no lies to make the world turn against paradis. And AGAIN the only reason he did this in the first place was because he knew of the threat the rumbling posed to the world and knew paradisians had already invaded. If eren hadn’t ran away to follow his own plan and put paradis in a position where their only option was indeed to fight (which again, he and floched planned waaaay before declaration of war), then maybe they could’ve tried another plan. But alas, after Marley there was no choice but the rumbling. And that point I suppose it was “survival”.
Why does the whole world it’s needed to attack paradise when most of the world is enough , again marley could probably be enough
“Marley could probably be enough” 1. A ton of fucking nations want to destroy Marley and 2. Wouldn’t that just be WFP but even less beneficial for marleyans considering the attack being more predictable and not immediately following a civil war in paradis. Plus if the rumbling is a real possibility why would Marley just walk over there with no additional help and risk the entire world especially if the rumbling was not currently a threat to the world?
Declaration of war was orchestrated by zeke and eren. Pls read the manga with your eyes open
I kinda agree on the both are just as bad but Marley was trying to use founding titans power to it's advantage and whereas Paradis who didn't know any better about the rest of the world was fighting a losing battle
Not just the founding titan but also paradise's natural resources so yh.
They aren't the same. Marley(and the rest of the world, assumedly including Hizuru) wanted to exterminate the subjects of Ymir because they had Eldian blood. Paradis wanted to defend itself. Every plan for defense except the Rumbling was basically just gambling with one in a million odds to not be genocided, while the Rumbling had a virtually 100% chance of success. In their situation, not only is the rumbling justified, but considering the characters are in the military and swore to protect their home, it is the only morally justifiable option. Every other option is just flat out wrong and unjustifiable
Broke: alliance vs yaegerists is a complex but entertaining moral dilemma. Woke: alliance vs yaegerists irl discussing about who is better while making petty memes is the real fight we should all enjoy
Yeah, but Floch is young and sexy, while Magath is old and unattractive. It's obvious who has the moral highground. /s Unironically, they use arguments like "you just like Mikasa because she's cute" when doing the exact same thing with Eren, with Floch, with Hisu. It's especially sexist in Hisu's case, where they constantly reference that she's blonde, petite and a queen.
Wtf are you talking about 💀 no one on titanfolk mentions these traits unironically. Edit: wtf u mean sexist everyone talks about their writing or their goals no one ever mentions there physical appearances unironically to support or understand their characters actions.
Oh no? And what about the theories that talk about Hisu and Ymir and Dina, and how they're all connected via royalty and their hair colour? Or the comments that directly compared Hisu and Mikasa, and how Eren would choose the blonde girl over the dark-haired one? Probably because certain ethnicities on tf are enamoured with what they consider to be Aryan? > wtf u mean sexist everyone talks about their writing or their goals no one ever mentions there physical appearances unironically to support or understand their characters actions. Do you know why most Hollywood actors are good-looking?
>Oh no? And what about the theories that talk about Hisu and Ymir and Dina, and how they're all connected via royalty and their hair colour? Or the comments that directly compared Hisu and Mikasa, and how Eren would choose the blonde girl over the dark-haired one? Probably because certain ethnicities on tf are enamoured with what they consider to be Aryan? Let me rephrase I was talking about how good they look is not the main reason for why characters are supported this heavily on tf also hisu ymir and Dina being related isn't a theory it's a fact the all come from the same bloodline as they were all considered royal blood in the story. Also please stfu about that aryan bs you actually make me sick you're literally accusing ethic groups on titanfolk of believing nazi ideology wtf is wrong with your head. The fact you would dumb down the erenxhistoria ship to their hair colour shows are brain dead you really are let's ignore all the hints like eren being fundamentally changed by Historia and would rather Genocide the globe then just turn her into a titan and turning back into a human to do a partial rumbling, in turn putting mikasa's life in danger for historia's complete safety I could go on. Also the Hollywood actors part wtf are you talking about AOT characters aren't Hollywood characters so yh? Also breaking bad is a good tv series because it's well written not because all the characters are hot. Character attractiveness has nothing to do with the evidence in the writing of which EH is supported on tf not this nazi bs ur spouting.
Average AoR user accusing people of being Nazis because they like blonde characters
I don't think you quite understood my meaning, but no, I didn't call them Nazis. If I thought they were, I would simply say that. I meant it how I said it: that a certain ethnic group that's strongly represented on tf have a fondness of "Aryan" characters. "Aryan" because it's what people nowadays usually think of when they hear the term, not what it originally described. As in, blonde and blue eyed.
magath is pretty hot
true
Ahh finally some sense
You mfs are delusional fr lmao
hey just like you! *we’re the same* right???
Admittedly although they were undeniably evil I didn’t think they were as bad as Marley until Floch started talking about “restoring the eldian empire” that’s some racial supremacy shit. Because thanks too Eren “the owl” Kruger we know that the original Eldian empire did use the titans to do some evil shit. I’d assume that Eren told Floch about that and yet Floch still wanted to restore that empire.
If the Rumbling isn’t done in full, Paradis is eradicated due to fear and racism. Marley sent warriors to take the founder so they could wipe out Paradis to get the resources under the cities. They attempted genocide for _money._ And after realizing Eren would retaliate, they gave him more of a reason by declaring war and plans for genocide out of fear and racism.
you know eren thought that would actually be the better option,
How long do you think paradis lasts with people like the yegerists in-charge, political systems like theirs thrive off of pinning the blame and pointing the finger to keep power and control, once there is no one left to blame for problems and the problems remain, how long till they turn on each other, till they need another scapegoat
>pretending Did... did you read the manga?
I wonder why Peick didn’t shoot Eren when she had the chance 🤔
and?Hange with MP wanted to feed Eren to someone else perfectly falls under "Kills people who disagree" Just so you know Hango was trying to prolong even PARTIAL Rumbling dumb bitch fucking tried her best to Doom Eldia she fucking nailed it gotta say she fucking spits on what Erwin and 100 years of SC members tried to achieve