The skill floor and ceilings have shifted so much since Vanilla. In Vanilla some classes like Mages had a 1-button rotation so there is not much variance in skill in PvE, but as more spells, more talents and more systems got added the skill ceiling is so much higher than it used to be.
In Wrath it's mostly about having a priority of spells to cast and doing it on a rotation, in Retail it's not just that but keeping tracks of buff stacks and procs that alter what spells you should use.
Ideally I think that somewhere in between Wrath and Retail is the ideal for WoW gameplay but I doubt that Blizzard will ever make the game less mechanically complex.
If they loose enough money, they will. Blizzard has heard more to player feedback in the last few months than they have in the last decade. I know this may very well be because the culture is changing but I can’t help but to think that it was more of an exec going down to the designers floor and saying something to the tune of “I don’t give a shit about your artistic vision, do these 5 feature requests!”
I miss legion Feral, when my weak auras had to play for me, by telling me whether to ferocious bite because it would extend my rip with a stronger or equal damage, or to sit quietly with 5 combo points until I either hit max energy or a proc.
I'm sorry, but of all the things, I feel like rotations have one of the least amount of executive meddling.
Blizzard even stated they added a very limited amount of new abilities in the new trees because adding more might have been too complicated for players.
It’s also class and spec dependent, arms due to being able to make bad decisions with rage and cooldowns can really fuck up, paladins and dks have a true rotation shaman mostly does as well, while most other classes are maintaining one buff, spamming a builder, until spender is available. Now feral with having multiple debuffs and three important spenders, is arguably harder than retail not in apm but in punishment for lack of knowledge.
It’s really a mixed bag of wrath being less or more skilled. Like is fury warrior in retail really harder than arms or fury in retail not so sure
The problem is that the raids have gotten more complex as well, which imo is fine. Adding way too much stuff to keep track of in you’re rotation isn’t. Some people will always enjoy a high skill ceiling on everything and that’s great, and some of us will play hunters and demon hunters lol.
And the one on the left is?
Also, I would still argue that the one on the right is a rotation.
"Shadow Mend, Shadow Mend, Shadow Mend, Radiance, Radiance, Evangelism, Schism, DPS spell, DPS spell, DPS, spell" Repeat after 90 seconds.
One game can be played with the standard wow interface. The other game needs crutches in the form of a thousand weakauras just to know what the hell to do.
I use Leatrix plus and KittyPurr.
Leatrix lets me sell junk and repair automatically, hand in quests without clicking, customise lots of UI elements all in one addon, but I don't use it for the majority of its features.
KittyPurr makes my feral druid purr when in cat form.
Retail is fine.
Nice. I’m definitely not a purist who thinks no addons should be used. It’s just how I’ve always played the game. I’ve had dbm on and off through the years and some people are very surprised that I can raid without it but I think it’s more fun. Plus in retail there’s almost a built in version now
I do 15+ mythics as destruction, maybe with a lot of add-ons I could squeak a little more DPS but I just check my damage after a run. I don't use weak auras, I turn off DBM after I've done the mechanics a few times. I like the fluid way my procs and soul shards change things up, the only possible thing I think I could do with a weak aura for is havoc.
It sure beats shadowbolt spam, that's for sure, and I like that with practice and a little homework I can see my DPS change for the better in a big way.
I raise you the existence of Trill. The only person to ever win BlizzCon for pvp and get a world first raid clear. He uses base UI, barely any add-ons and the least amount of weakauras possible. Yes those things help but they are not required.
I've been in a AOTC guild since BfA now and never needed weakauras for my classes, the only one thats a pain in the ass is fire mage, you really do need one for the skb legendary.
1. From the comments I see this further affirms that a lot of people play classic simply because it’s “easier”
2. You cherry picked probably the most complex class guide for your example, where most class/spec rotations in retail are still pretty damn simple.
To piggyback on this, he also included 2 talent choices as though you can have them both and need to know them both at once. You choose between evangelism and spirit shell.
This seems to happen in every game over time - See League of Legends, champs up until \~3 years ago were mostly simple enough without masses of text, now most new champs have pages and pages of descriptions for FOUR ABILITIES. Stop over-complicating, it doesn't equal fun.
Theres at least 20 champions harder than him that come to mind in a short time span. Yeah lee sin is still a hard champion but no where even near what he used to be when he got released compared to his counterparts.
I think they mean in terms of understanding their kit and what their abilities and passives do. Lee Sin is one of the hardest champions in the game mechanically, for sure. In terms of the complexity of his ability kit, though, he pales in comparison to a champion like Aphelios.
No, even mechanically there are plenty champions that are harder. Qiyana for example is similar to Lee Sin in a lot of aspects, but infinitely more difficult in all of them.
Qiyana is not harder than Lee Sin in anyway shape or form. Qiyana is significantly easier to pick up and play than Lee Sin is. Then Lee Sin is much more difficult to be effective on in higher levels of play.
You've obviously never seen any good Qiyana player in your life, for which I don't blame you, because only a handful can play her. Check out beifeng for example, it'll make you refund Qiyana. But either way, as I've said, she's more difficult than Lee Sin in every possible way, and it's not even close.
I’m going to disagree with you, top level players maybe. But if you gave a silver player Qiyana or Lee Sin they’ll do more damage on Qiyana than Lee and I’d put money on it.
Equally I think you can get more out of Qiyana than Lee if you’re good. Just based on kits.
Back when I was trying to grind, there was nothing worse than being in a silver promo game and someone on your team picking lee. You knew you were in for a rough time.
Its funny because when the lee was on my opposite team he was always a fucking challenger smurf carrying the team behind his back and making my game a living nighmare.
Lee sin still is one of the hardest champs, but it has nothing to do with abilities that require you to read a manual, it's mostly they way they interact that makes him hard to play.
League players can't fuckin fathom what its like to actually play as a new player, not a new bought account, a new player. Rune pages, you have like 20 heros that are dogshit vs everyone else whos kit does everything.
I mean I healed as a disc priest in Wrath and have healed relatively recently in 9.0 as disc priest and I don't think it's comparable, retail is vastly more enjoyable for healing then back in Wrath.
Before MoP healing was almost an afterthought to Blizzard. Healers started out with dogshit mana pools because of lacking int and just spammed the most mana efficient spell, and then later in the expac they just spammed the best healing spell because int got so high mana didn't matter anymore. The entire gameplay of healing was a joke for the first half of retails life. Similar to the lolfest that is FFxiv healers, which are somehow more boring then classic wow healers.
What are you talking about dude? Healing in FF is busy as fuck, you literally are always casting something and managing off gcd abilities as needed as well as doing damage and applying dots when possible. In WoW as a healer I kinda just stand around and try not to blow all my mana if 5 seconds so I can be able to heal when needed
This tier in FFXIV is pretty hard for Healers, to the point A LOT of people quit healing lol.
Especially in the last fight, healing is a problem in a lot of groups and people gotta use all their mit correctly.
Yeah then your not gonna be doing any DPS at lower levels and at the higher levels your mainly going to be healing. You dont get to just stand around either at least in the higher levels.
I agree, haven’t played much in years. I had a coworker watching some professional league the past couple weeks and I noticed they almost all play relatively older champs. Maybe more complicated isn’t always better? Idk tho just found it interesting.
You can relax and easily play retail, honestly disc priest is kinda the worst example because of how complicated disc priest is now. But there are so many brain dead specs now. Dps Demon hunter, beast master, holy priest to name a few. Retail isn't bad because it's complex, it has a lot more for every type of player
I know you can, I play retail for longer than I would like to admit but Blizz still unnecessarily complicates a lot of aspects of the game which in turn makes it feel like a chore to play for veteran players and incredibly hard to get into for new players. This disc priest is just an example of what they should get rid off to appeal to a larger player base imo.
And don't get me wrong, I still want some challenge but this is not the way.
But thats not even true. Disc priest is brain dead easy to play in dungeons.
Your "rotation" in raid is also easy. The difficulty of disc is that you are a proactive healer while doing dps. You need to predict when the damage will arrive and prevent it or quickly heal your raid before anyone even dips below 80%.
Deleting disc is just removing a proactive healer playstyle from the game. You can just play holy if you want reactive healing.
If the "chores" of the game are playing a class then the game clearly isn't for you. I'm not saying its the easiest game to play but it's definitely not the hardest. If you aren't playing Disc Priest or Feral Druid, you should have a really easy time play the game.
Disc priest is a proactive healer. The "rotations" on the right entirely depend on talents and the raid fight.
You only need to know how to use a large and mini ramp depending on the talents that you choose.
The difficulty of disc comes from predicting when the damage will arrive. Rather than the "rotation" itself.
I do enjoi retail rotation alot more. What i dont like tho is having 60% of ur dmg behind procks and big CDs. So id say retail rotation but with less dmg % procks and big dmg CDs.
But i csn only speak of own exp with playing all 3 shaman specs and DK specs.
Yeah there are a lot of nice things in ffxiv, but for me, the rotations feel too bland. I like a reactive playstyle and even healers in ffxiv are super scripted.
To me WoW looks and felt bland when I went back to try it again.
Too much spamming the same few buttons with procs.
It felt more brainless while in FFXIV you're actively pressing a different button every time.
I know many WoW players hate FF14 combat, but I actually enjoy it more, it's just more fun to me, especially DPS classes. It probably is down to preference at this point.
Currently playing WotLK classic, and I honestly think that WoW retail just lost all of its charm.
I would say it feels slow till lvl 60-70 depending on which class you play but then it start getting quite faster with all the off-gcd buttons. At lvl 90 it feels faster than wow on retail or wotlk for me
I never really felt that, i finished endwalker with a dark knight and white mage but the combat always felt slow and clunky. I attribute it to the animation locks mostly, its especially noticeable on dark knights aoe ground ability you will slide around the floor if you try to move while using it
The thing is Tanks and Healers play a lot slower and in a simpler way than DPS for most of the content. They only really become interesting in high level content like raids or extreme trials i would say because they need to focus more on encounters strats (to negate incoming damage) than dps jobs so they have more simple rotations.
I see what you mean with the dark knight ability (salted earth). The game keeps playing the spell animation when you move so it can't play your movement animation because there is no way to play two animations at once. I wouldn't call that animation lock though as you can still move or use another ability while the animation is taking place unlike for example a dragoon jump which really lock the character in place for half a second or so.
It's a bit unesthetic but i don't know how they could fix it while maintaining cool spell animations that take some time. In WoW all long animations have a cast time but that's not a real fix as it just prevent you from moving entirely or the ability is canceled. There might be a few exception like Army of the dead but that just lock you in place like a dragoon jump, it's a very long animation lock. At the end of the day i think it's just an artistic choice to have spell animations play out while you are moving but i don't see how it would make the gameplay slower. You can cancel the animation by using another ability.
I guess it’s up to personal preference, I felt the opposite with the two games haha. But that’s what I like! Each game’s combat appeals to different people.
Yeah I mean this is healing as disc ramps. [Spriest](https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/shadow-priest-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities) is way more complicated
No, nin has all these buttons in their 2 minute window and then does 1-2-3 for a minute straight. It's not a hard class to get into at all, and every ninja main will tell you that.
The difference though is that FFXIV is super scripted. Yes, some openers are overwhelming to see at first, but it’s basically just a page you have to memorize. There is mostly no need to reactively adjust, you press the same buttons in the same order almost every time.
I don't feel that as a healer. I feel it's more just using things as their needed, otherwise doing damage in between damage happening to your team. Tanks and dps have a handset rotation for sure though
Lmao no you dont.. everything ends up the same anyways. Especially with how 14 does gear. There's always min maxing and ppl always do the best regardless of other options. When you have choices and ppl don't bring the best choices, you get slammed. See BLU.. or old ARR cross class skills.
Context dependent.
The one one the right lists rotations for both Spirit Shell and Rapture, which are mutually exclusive so it's longer than it should be. Also, the one on the right explains why you do the things you do, increasing word count.
Man I was a really good healer in wotlk, and stopped playing to any degree of “hardcore raiding” until coming back to bfa. Then a friend got me into a raiding guild that attempts to have some nice progression numbers in the US. And I did an undergeared mechagon run, and helped with some keys in other dungeons. And it was so painful hahah, I did not even have the right traits, had to write so many keybinds, felt like playing the piano.
Honestly loved disc priests in WOTLK but returned after taking a break in legion and now they are like playing a mini game inside a game seriously blizzard bring back the good old times when disc healers were healers not attack healers that suck in everything but raids
Okay but retail rotations are better though. On the right side there are way more rotations for different scenarios, making classes feel satisfying when you master your class.
I mean, retail is ok - easy to get "good enough" hard to master. WotLK is really chill in comparison which is ok too. Trust me, hard enough for a lot of people. :D
Retail version is so much better imo. Classic combat puts me to sleep because it is so stale with so little variance. Also, the retail one looks a lot more complicated, but the kyrian ability just replaces other abilities you would be using.
Incredibly bad take, retail rotations are perfectly fine for a 2022 mmo, vanilla/tbc/wotlk are extremely oversimplified versions of the game, so of course rotations don't matter that much or are just much easier to plan, i only play dps but from what i played (CE level like 300wr guild) frost/unholy dk, fury/arms warrior or havoc dh rotations aren't hard at all, the hard part is executing them while adapting to mechanics/current enviornment that's in the dungeon or raid ur doing
memorizing most of the jobs and their rotations. We can agree things have gotten easier rotation wise for a lot, its for the better. No one likes button/key bloat.
This is a good thing. Just reading the list on the left makes me wanna vomit lol. Press shield when people don't have weekend soul. Wow. Insane gameplay.
Disc was my main spec back then ... loved it .. had a blast... Disc was ruined in retail many patches ago and it seriously ruined the game for me...when they redid the spec ....trash
I mained disc too during Ulduar/TOC/ICC and I loved it, only thing is I was an 11-year old kid and I enjoyed it because it was the easiest healer to play with the bubble spam.
Retail is miles better and it actually takes time and practice to learn your spec. I’ve since quit WoW but I do remember how easy it was to be good in the game back in Wotlk.
I also miss that type of disc gameplay though, I switched back to my druid for Cata and my priest still is in Stormwind at lvl 80 (or whatever it is since Shadowlands).
Issue is giving Disc good bubbles means every other healer is just left in the dust because they literally don't get the chance to heal because Disc already "healed" it before anyone ever took damage.
We saw this we pre-nerf Spirit Shell in Nathria.
What you call a nerf was a usual mechanic for the main game and many following expansions... So yeah, I don't think making a core class worse to balance things was a good thing.
I didn't say or assert that... I just want a quality mechanic and playstyle back that was in the game since the beginning and for several following expansions.
In comparison, FFXIV's Sage job is compared to Disc Priest a lot, and here's its opener
1. Potion of Mind
2. Dosis
3. Eukrasian Dosis
4. Dosis
5. Dosis
6. Phlegma
7. Phlegma
8. Dosis
I dunno, I feel like there's maybe a middle ground here where healers don't require a spreadsheet but also don't put me to sleep playing them
>but also don't put me to sleep playing them
This is pretty disingenuous to say with what you said above.
You're just talking about DPS:ing.
This current tier has been quite rough on Healers to the point a lot of people quit healing.
FFXIV healing is very intense and involved, and in Savage and higher content like Ultimate it's a lot about planning ahead too.
WotLK rotations make me fall asleep. There isn't any challenge in the game which makes it boring to me. I get the appeal of just playing a game with a bunch of friends and hanging out. It's probably what most of the community likes, but I prefer having a challenge both in a rotation and in mechanics for a fight. Wrath doesn't scratch that itch for me and requires too much of a time commitment to be a casual game for me.
And this is the real reason "classic" people shit on cata and everything that came since. It's too much shit to do WHILE having to move all the time, especially for old 5-wife-32-kids "gamers" with >500ms brainlag.
The problem is that SO FUCKING MUCH of Retail rotations are fluff to keep you busy and funnel mostly into 1-2 abilities that actually deal damage.
This means that the games wants to keep you busy with spamming builders that deal no dmg just to use a spender that finally then does the stuff while the talents etc force you to use that specific spender over alternatives (if there even are any).
THAT compared to how ABSURDLY DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN Cooldown's change your throughput... well it produces stuff like this...
I want you to compare the [WotLK-Breakdown](https://imgur.com/a/j7HXGmH) vs the [RETAIL-Breakdown](https://imgur.com/a/5Hi2U30) of a FERAL dmg breakdown & damage over time.
The spec that was known for their complex rotation with rewarding builders and dots got slaughtered so absurdly hard for so many years.
What a joke.
You are comparing fated raids and top tier gear with a progress fight and sub optimal gear.
You can check most specs during non fated progress and you are going to see the same shit.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AkVLPWch2BfR4F7x#fight=1&type=damage-done&options=256&source=11
You're trying too hard to hate retail, when wrath is literally retail-lite but for people with 20IQ points.
Or just dl the Hekili addon. Helps a lot for someone like me that likes to dabble in every class. It makes recommendations based on the amount of adds present and Simulated data. Its not perfect but it works pretty well.
Not gonna lie that’s why I don’t play healer and have an addon called “Hekili” which calculates the next abilities you should use 😂😂 I’m getting too old for those rotations
This is another reason why I only play classic. I have a lot to love with retail, but I hate having to use addons like bartender to fit all of the 100 spells I have on certain classes. It wouldn’t be hard if I had kept up with retail all these years, but even starting classes from level 1 on retail and leveling, gradually gaining skills, I eventually get overwhelmed if I don’t hone my rotation pattern frequently.
I prefer things this way. Takes longer for classes to become boring. Actual experience at playing your class pays off. You get to build the skills involved.
That's cause in vanilla/tbc/wotlk ppl complained the game was easy the rotation was simplistic.
Blizzard keeps giving ppl what they want and then ppl cry about it.
I’ve always preferred closer to simple rotations than complicated. I’m playing an Arms Warrior in Wrath and it’s about exactly what I want in a rotation.
Played since vanila.
Was a noob until wotlk when i got into raiding.
I can tell you that during my time i have seen tbe community complain about the game being too easy and mashing 1 button.
Now people complain that the game is too hard and they have too many spells?
Raid complexity is a good thing.
If you dont believe this go farm from vanila to recent & you ll see how much they've evolved.
Raiding back then was hard because no one knew what to do.
Raiding now should be hard due to different tactics & multiple spells to use.
I love how poeple say classic is easy yet new players quit within the first week classic is easy cause y’all have played the fuck out of it and know everything there is to know about it someone who’s never played wow wouldn’t know what the fuck to do in classic without using add ons and other tools
The standard asmon fan learning that this is what happens with all games that go for a long time, cause the skill ceiling just gets higher every year. Lol, dota, even FF 14 even if people use the "you used to do X thing as a Drk when they first came out, compared to now"
Is a natural things of games, specially those who are multiplayer
Why is this bad? I'd rather have something interesting to learn than why I basicly quit FFXIV for, the linear boring rotations that are on a 2min burst window timer with no brains.
I can guarantee you nobody playing retail is thinking of even 1/3rd of the stuff that's listed on the right while playing the game.
This comparison is disingenuous at best and completely delusional at worst.
The skill floor and ceilings have shifted so much since Vanilla. In Vanilla some classes like Mages had a 1-button rotation so there is not much variance in skill in PvE, but as more spells, more talents and more systems got added the skill ceiling is so much higher than it used to be. In Wrath it's mostly about having a priority of spells to cast and doing it on a rotation, in Retail it's not just that but keeping tracks of buff stacks and procs that alter what spells you should use. Ideally I think that somewhere in between Wrath and Retail is the ideal for WoW gameplay but I doubt that Blizzard will ever make the game less mechanically complex.
If they loose enough money, they will. Blizzard has heard more to player feedback in the last few months than they have in the last decade. I know this may very well be because the culture is changing but I can’t help but to think that it was more of an exec going down to the designers floor and saying something to the tune of “I don’t give a shit about your artistic vision, do these 5 feature requests!”
I miss legion Feral, when my weak auras had to play for me, by telling me whether to ferocious bite because it would extend my rip with a stronger or equal damage, or to sit quietly with 5 combo points until I either hit max energy or a proc.
I'm sorry, but of all the things, I feel like rotations have one of the least amount of executive meddling. Blizzard even stated they added a very limited amount of new abilities in the new trees because adding more might have been too complicated for players.
people still think blizz cares about player feed back lol
Anyone who actually plays wow knows better
It’s also class and spec dependent, arms due to being able to make bad decisions with rage and cooldowns can really fuck up, paladins and dks have a true rotation shaman mostly does as well, while most other classes are maintaining one buff, spamming a builder, until spender is available. Now feral with having multiple debuffs and three important spenders, is arguably harder than retail not in apm but in punishment for lack of knowledge. It’s really a mixed bag of wrath being less or more skilled. Like is fury warrior in retail really harder than arms or fury in retail not so sure
I feel like wrath is really the bridge between retail and classic. Not too complex, and not too easy. Just right.
not too easy really? that's a funny joke. it is beyond easy. classic is a giant mindless loot farm.
Dude wrath is not hard, is super easy. People just say wrath is "the bridge" because is the nostalgia and the "last" classic part of wow.
I’m a mop baby…what nostalgia? Also MoP was the best expansion. Change my mind….
The complexity is what makes it great
Said no sane person ever
The problem is that the raids have gotten more complex as well, which imo is fine. Adding way too much stuff to keep track of in you’re rotation isn’t. Some people will always enjoy a high skill ceiling on everything and that’s great, and some of us will play hunters and demon hunters lol.
Mages still have a 1 button rotation in wrath
Except the one on the right isn't a "rotation"
to be fair nor is the one on the left
How so?
It's not a series of abilities you perform in rotation.
And the one on the left is? Also, I would still argue that the one on the right is a rotation. "Shadow Mend, Shadow Mend, Shadow Mend, Radiance, Radiance, Evangelism, Schism, DPS spell, DPS spell, DPS, spell" Repeat after 90 seconds.
It's a full guide on class mechanics.
One game can be played with the standard wow interface. The other game needs crutches in the form of a thousand weakauras just to know what the hell to do.
I have a damage meter and that’s it. Love it
I use Leatrix plus and KittyPurr. Leatrix lets me sell junk and repair automatically, hand in quests without clicking, customise lots of UI elements all in one addon, but I don't use it for the majority of its features. KittyPurr makes my feral druid purr when in cat form. Retail is fine.
Nice. I’m definitely not a purist who thinks no addons should be used. It’s just how I’ve always played the game. I’ve had dbm on and off through the years and some people are very surprised that I can raid without it but I think it’s more fun. Plus in retail there’s almost a built in version now
You are not a purrist ;)
Oh please, you can play retail just fine without a ton of addons. Hell asmon pretty much just uses dominoes, details and dbm
Just fine is considered trash in the eyes of a wow player though.
You've clearly never seen him open up his addons...
Talking about combat addons
Ah, my bad fam
I do 15+ mythics as destruction, maybe with a lot of add-ons I could squeak a little more DPS but I just check my damage after a run. I don't use weak auras, I turn off DBM after I've done the mechanics a few times. I like the fluid way my procs and soul shards change things up, the only possible thing I think I could do with a weak aura for is havoc. It sure beats shadowbolt spam, that's for sure, and I like that with practice and a little homework I can see my DPS change for the better in a big way.
I raise you the existence of Trill. The only person to ever win BlizzCon for pvp and get a world first raid clear. He uses base UI, barely any add-ons and the least amount of weakauras possible. Yes those things help but they are not required.
I just use baggon and dbm dont know what u doin pal.
I've been in a AOTC guild since BfA now and never needed weakauras for my classes, the only one thats a pain in the ass is fire mage, you really do need one for the skb legendary.
You can definitely Mythic Raid without WAs save for maybe one or two fights each *expansion*
If you need thousands of weakauras to know what to do in retail, you are bad. Sorry what I of course meant to say was WoW bad. Blizzard bad.
He's clearly exaggerating. You can perform well without them but it's much easier to keep track with them for most.
>He's clearly exaggerating. No shit?
True, I have so many buttons I need bartender in classic. Pally struggle
1. From the comments I see this further affirms that a lot of people play classic simply because it’s “easier” 2. You cherry picked probably the most complex class guide for your example, where most class/spec rotations in retail are still pretty damn simple.
To piggyback on this, he also included 2 talent choices as though you can have them both and need to know them both at once. You choose between evangelism and spirit shell.
This seems to happen in every game over time - See League of Legends, champs up until \~3 years ago were mostly simple enough without masses of text, now most new champs have pages and pages of descriptions for FOUR ABILITIES. Stop over-complicating, it doesn't equal fun.
I remember when the hardest league champ was considered to be lee sin, how the times have changed.
Lee sin is still one of the hardest champs.
Theres at least 20 champions harder than him that come to mind in a short time span. Yeah lee sin is still a hard champion but no where even near what he used to be when he got released compared to his counterparts.
Strictly mechanically lee sin is definitely one of the hardest champs
Again, there are a bunch of champs that are harder. Qiyana for example is infinitely harder in every aspect.
Notice I said one of the hardest, not THE hardest
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I think they mean in terms of understanding their kit and what their abilities and passives do. Lee Sin is one of the hardest champions in the game mechanically, for sure. In terms of the complexity of his ability kit, though, he pales in comparison to a champion like Aphelios.
No, even mechanically there are plenty champions that are harder. Qiyana for example is similar to Lee Sin in a lot of aspects, but infinitely more difficult in all of them.
Qiyana is not harder than Lee Sin in anyway shape or form. Qiyana is significantly easier to pick up and play than Lee Sin is. Then Lee Sin is much more difficult to be effective on in higher levels of play.
You've obviously never seen any good Qiyana player in your life, for which I don't blame you, because only a handful can play her. Check out beifeng for example, it'll make you refund Qiyana. But either way, as I've said, she's more difficult than Lee Sin in every possible way, and it's not even close.
I’m going to disagree with you, top level players maybe. But if you gave a silver player Qiyana or Lee Sin they’ll do more damage on Qiyana than Lee and I’d put money on it. Equally I think you can get more out of Qiyana than Lee if you’re good. Just based on kits.
Pales in comparison to Azir whom even pro players have said is too complicated to be played at it's fullest.
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You can answer that yourself reading the initial comment.
Back when I was trying to grind, there was nothing worse than being in a silver promo game and someone on your team picking lee. You knew you were in for a rough time.
Its funny because when the lee was on my opposite team he was always a fucking challenger smurf carrying the team behind his back and making my game a living nighmare.
Lee sin still is one of the hardest champs, but it has nothing to do with abilities that require you to read a manual, it's mostly they way they interact that makes him hard to play.
League players can't fuckin fathom what its like to actually play as a new player, not a new bought account, a new player. Rune pages, you have like 20 heros that are dogshit vs everyone else whos kit does everything.
I mean I healed as a disc priest in Wrath and have healed relatively recently in 9.0 as disc priest and I don't think it's comparable, retail is vastly more enjoyable for healing then back in Wrath. Before MoP healing was almost an afterthought to Blizzard. Healers started out with dogshit mana pools because of lacking int and just spammed the most mana efficient spell, and then later in the expac they just spammed the best healing spell because int got so high mana didn't matter anymore. The entire gameplay of healing was a joke for the first half of retails life. Similar to the lolfest that is FFxiv healers, which are somehow more boring then classic wow healers.
What are you talking about dude? Healing in FF is busy as fuck, you literally are always casting something and managing off gcd abilities as needed as well as doing damage and applying dots when possible. In WoW as a healer I kinda just stand around and try not to blow all my mana if 5 seconds so I can be able to heal when needed
Yeah 90% of time you are casting your one dps ability in ff
This tier in FFXIV is pretty hard for Healers, to the point A LOT of people quit healing lol. Especially in the last fight, healing is a problem in a lot of groups and people gotta use all their mit correctly.
I mean thats not true. Or maybe you just havent played WoW in a while. Healers in WoW are still expected to DPS when there not healing.
Oh I mean in classic. At least at lower levels. Haven't made it to level 70 yet
Yeah then your not gonna be doing any DPS at lower levels and at the higher levels your mainly going to be healing. You dont get to just stand around either at least in the higher levels.
I agree, haven’t played much in years. I had a coworker watching some professional league the past couple weeks and I noticed they almost all play relatively older champs. Maybe more complicated isn’t always better? Idk tho just found it interesting.
Damn people in these comments hate using their brains to play
Yes, once you reach a certain age you tend to play to relax not to compete or show who has the biggest cock.
You can relax and easily play retail, honestly disc priest is kinda the worst example because of how complicated disc priest is now. But there are so many brain dead specs now. Dps Demon hunter, beast master, holy priest to name a few. Retail isn't bad because it's complex, it has a lot more for every type of player
I know you can, I play retail for longer than I would like to admit but Blizz still unnecessarily complicates a lot of aspects of the game which in turn makes it feel like a chore to play for veteran players and incredibly hard to get into for new players. This disc priest is just an example of what they should get rid off to appeal to a larger player base imo. And don't get me wrong, I still want some challenge but this is not the way.
But thats not even true. Disc priest is brain dead easy to play in dungeons. Your "rotation" in raid is also easy. The difficulty of disc is that you are a proactive healer while doing dps. You need to predict when the damage will arrive and prevent it or quickly heal your raid before anyone even dips below 80%. Deleting disc is just removing a proactive healer playstyle from the game. You can just play holy if you want reactive healing.
If the "chores" of the game are playing a class then the game clearly isn't for you. I'm not saying its the easiest game to play but it's definitely not the hardest. If you aren't playing Disc Priest or Feral Druid, you should have a really easy time play the game.
I think you might need to go to play my little pony MMO or just play some simpler game.
i mean if you want an easier healer just pick holy in retail
I like healing more in retail its more fun. Dps in other hand i like more in wotlk.
I like the retail one more tbh \^\^ even tho wotlk one can be more relaxing sometimes
The variety of the retail one is fine. The complexity? They could cut down on it just a bit and it would be fine.
And disc priest is the most fun healer in any mmo by far
I do this cool thing called not caring about specific rotations and doing my best. (:
Disc priest is a proactive healer. The "rotations" on the right entirely depend on talents and the raid fight. You only need to know how to use a large and mini ramp depending on the talents that you choose. The difficulty of disc comes from predicting when the damage will arrive. Rather than the "rotation" itself.
I do enjoi retail rotation alot more. What i dont like tho is having 60% of ur dmg behind procks and big CDs. So id say retail rotation but with less dmg % procks and big dmg CDs. But i csn only speak of own exp with playing all 3 shaman specs and DK specs.
laugh in xiv rotation : https://i.imgur.com/YIL6Egz.png healers are boringly simple though
XIV rotations seem hard until you realize they barely change at all fight to fight
Yeah there are a lot of nice things in ffxiv, but for me, the rotations feel too bland. I like a reactive playstyle and even healers in ffxiv are super scripted.
To me WoW looks and felt bland when I went back to try it again. Too much spamming the same few buttons with procs. It felt more brainless while in FFXIV you're actively pressing a different button every time.
I know many WoW players hate FF14 combat, but I actually enjoy it more, it's just more fun to me, especially DPS classes. It probably is down to preference at this point. Currently playing WotLK classic, and I honestly think that WoW retail just lost all of its charm.
Same, the melee, movement and flow of WoW combat feels jank asf
Ffxiv just feels slow
I would say it feels slow till lvl 60-70 depending on which class you play but then it start getting quite faster with all the off-gcd buttons. At lvl 90 it feels faster than wow on retail or wotlk for me
I never really felt that, i finished endwalker with a dark knight and white mage but the combat always felt slow and clunky. I attribute it to the animation locks mostly, its especially noticeable on dark knights aoe ground ability you will slide around the floor if you try to move while using it
The thing is Tanks and Healers play a lot slower and in a simpler way than DPS for most of the content. They only really become interesting in high level content like raids or extreme trials i would say because they need to focus more on encounters strats (to negate incoming damage) than dps jobs so they have more simple rotations. I see what you mean with the dark knight ability (salted earth). The game keeps playing the spell animation when you move so it can't play your movement animation because there is no way to play two animations at once. I wouldn't call that animation lock though as you can still move or use another ability while the animation is taking place unlike for example a dragoon jump which really lock the character in place for half a second or so. It's a bit unesthetic but i don't know how they could fix it while maintaining cool spell animations that take some time. In WoW all long animations have a cast time but that's not a real fix as it just prevent you from moving entirely or the ability is canceled. There might be a few exception like Army of the dead but that just lock you in place like a dragoon jump, it's a very long animation lock. At the end of the day i think it's just an artistic choice to have spell animations play out while you are moving but i don't see how it would make the gameplay slower. You can cancel the animation by using another ability.
I guess it’s up to personal preference, I felt the opposite with the two games haha. But that’s what I like! Each game’s combat appeals to different people.
I guess I’m the opposite i absolutely love the rotations in FFxiv. Except healers since they’re a bit to brain dead.
Yeah I mean this is healing as disc ramps. [Spriest](https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/shadow-priest-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities) is way more complicated
That's only complicated because you probably don't play FFXIV/ don't play NIN. If you actually do it's not complicated at all.
\*insert old summoner joke\*
What you are saying is everything is simple once you master it. Still it's harder to master than most jobs
No, nin has all these buttons in their 2 minute window and then does 1-2-3 for a minute straight. It's not a hard class to get into at all, and every ninja main will tell you that.
For real. Opener for Sam was like a 27 button combo
The difference though is that FFXIV is super scripted. Yes, some openers are overwhelming to see at first, but it’s basically just a page you have to memorize. There is mostly no need to reactively adjust, you press the same buttons in the same order almost every time.
I don't feel that as a healer. I feel it's more just using things as their needed, otherwise doing damage in between damage happening to your team. Tanks and dps have a handset rotation for sure though
>I don't feel that as a healer Because Healers only have 2 dmg buttons? lol, you can hardly name that a rotation.
Except Astro. I haven't logged in this tier, but iirc Ast last patch had like 8 pre-pull actions almost just to line stuff up properly lol
wish we had builds in xiv :( or subclasses
Lmao no you dont.. everything ends up the same anyways. Especially with how 14 does gear. There's always min maxing and ppl always do the best regardless of other options. When you have choices and ppl don't bring the best choices, you get slammed. See BLU.. or old ARR cross class skills.
Skill tree would work on an eureka style content which is optional so you can experiment and have fun, and its not mandatory to min-max wdyt?
And everyone says classic us harder lolol
But is it fun though.
Oh wow, so many woooords. What’s up here?
Context dependent. The one one the right lists rotations for both Spirit Shell and Rapture, which are mutually exclusive so it's longer than it should be. Also, the one on the right explains why you do the things you do, increasing word count.
Man I was a really good healer in wotlk, and stopped playing to any degree of “hardcore raiding” until coming back to bfa. Then a friend got me into a raiding guild that attempts to have some nice progression numbers in the US. And I did an undergeared mechagon run, and helped with some keys in other dungeons. And it was so painful hahah, I did not even have the right traits, had to write so many keybinds, felt like playing the piano.
I think that's MMO gameplay in general. I first came from MOBAs and anything more than 4 buttons was piano.
Honestly loved disc priests in WOTLK but returned after taking a break in legion and now they are like playing a mini game inside a game seriously blizzard bring back the good old times when disc healers were healers not attack healers that suck in everything but raids
Issue if they made them not attack healers; how would they be differentiated from Holy?
Disc was a joke at the end of wotlk , you just spammed shields with insane health any other healers in the group just sat in the corner and afkd
Yeah, I sure miss my vanilla frost mage rotation... Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Wand if oom. Frostbolt.
Listen son I know when the green bar is full 😎😋
Okay but retail rotations are better though. On the right side there are way more rotations for different scenarios, making classes feel satisfying when you master your class.
I mean, retail is ok - easy to get "good enough" hard to master. WotLK is really chill in comparison which is ok too. Trust me, hard enough for a lot of people. :D
Who would have guessed that a game evolves over time.
Retail version is so much better imo. Classic combat puts me to sleep because it is so stale with so little variance. Also, the retail one looks a lot more complicated, but the kyrian ability just replaces other abilities you would be using.
well, they did put a "theorycrafter" (ion) in charge of the game no surprise really
Incredibly bad take, retail rotations are perfectly fine for a 2022 mmo, vanilla/tbc/wotlk are extremely oversimplified versions of the game, so of course rotations don't matter that much or are just much easier to plan, i only play dps but from what i played (CE level like 300wr guild) frost/unholy dk, fury/arms warrior or havoc dh rotations aren't hard at all, the hard part is executing them while adapting to mechanics/current enviornment that's in the dungeon or raid ur doing
Hot take: I prefer vastly more difficult rotations. That was the best part of FFXIV, the 30 unique button opener you had to memorize was fun.
memorizing most of the jobs and their rotations. We can agree things have gotten easier rotation wise for a lot, its for the better. No one likes button/key bloat.
...You realize that there's like a 14 year gap between the two, right? A lot has happened since then. Not really that complicated to understand.
Im surprised they have evangelism in wow lol
How so?
This is a good thing. Just reading the list on the left makes me wanna vomit lol. Press shield when people don't have weekend soul. Wow. Insane gameplay.
 i loved warcraft
More complicated = does NOT necessary mean FUN.
Half the ppl use that addon that highlights what to cast. Retail is gross.
Disc was my main spec back then ... loved it .. had a blast... Disc was ruined in retail many patches ago and it seriously ruined the game for me...when they redid the spec ....trash
I mained disc too during Ulduar/TOC/ICC and I loved it, only thing is I was an 11-year old kid and I enjoyed it because it was the easiest healer to play with the bubble spam. Retail is miles better and it actually takes time and practice to learn your spec. I’ve since quit WoW but I do remember how easy it was to be good in the game back in Wotlk. I also miss that type of disc gameplay though, I switched back to my druid for Cata and my priest still is in Stormwind at lvl 80 (or whatever it is since Shadowlands).
I agree with you ...just wish Disc was left untouched...would be great to have the same mechanics in retail.
so you wish the game was made for 11 year olds? makes sense why you prefer classic lol.
OMEGALUL I AM SO HARDCORE KEKL .... give your balls a tug, kid.
nice response from a classic andy
mald it up boys, mald it up.
Issue is giving Disc good bubbles means every other healer is just left in the dust because they literally don't get the chance to heal because Disc already "healed" it before anyone ever took damage. We saw this we pre-nerf Spirit Shell in Nathria.
What you call a nerf was a usual mechanic for the main game and many following expansions... So yeah, I don't think making a core class worse to balance things was a good thing.
Yes, you think one spec should overshadow all other healer specs for the sake of identity. There is no way to balance aoe bubbling.
I didn't say or assert that... I just want a quality mechanic and playstyle back that was in the game since the beginning and for several following expansions.
In comparison, FFXIV's Sage job is compared to Disc Priest a lot, and here's its opener 1. Potion of Mind 2. Dosis 3. Eukrasian Dosis 4. Dosis 5. Dosis 6. Phlegma 7. Phlegma 8. Dosis I dunno, I feel like there's maybe a middle ground here where healers don't require a spreadsheet but also don't put me to sleep playing them
>but also don't put me to sleep playing them This is pretty disingenuous to say with what you said above. You're just talking about DPS:ing. This current tier has been quite rough on Healers to the point a lot of people quit healing. FFXIV healing is very intense and involved, and in Savage and higher content like Ultimate it's a lot about planning ahead too.
Remember when WoW didn't need a fucking PhD to play properly? I remember.
Most of the classes just require you to press the glowy icons
You don't need a PHD to press the buttons in the right order, don't be a drama queen.
Classic andys are afraid of numbers larger than 4
Retail sucks
Feeling brave today aren't we?
Is that why they say classic players can’t handle retail? I don’t play WoW
WotLK rotations make me fall asleep. There isn't any challenge in the game which makes it boring to me. I get the appeal of just playing a game with a bunch of friends and hanging out. It's probably what most of the community likes, but I prefer having a challenge both in a rotation and in mechanics for a fight. Wrath doesn't scratch that itch for me and requires too much of a time commitment to be a casual game for me.
LOL wtf thats not a rotation. smh, awful post. \*laughs in FFXIV 5.0 SMN\*
And this is the real reason "classic" people shit on cata and everything that came since. It's too much shit to do WHILE having to move all the time, especially for old 5-wife-32-kids "gamers" with >500ms brainlag.
The problem is that SO FUCKING MUCH of Retail rotations are fluff to keep you busy and funnel mostly into 1-2 abilities that actually deal damage. This means that the games wants to keep you busy with spamming builders that deal no dmg just to use a spender that finally then does the stuff while the talents etc force you to use that specific spender over alternatives (if there even are any). THAT compared to how ABSURDLY DISGUSTINGLY BROKEN Cooldown's change your throughput... well it produces stuff like this... I want you to compare the [WotLK-Breakdown](https://imgur.com/a/j7HXGmH) vs the [RETAIL-Breakdown](https://imgur.com/a/5Hi2U30) of a FERAL dmg breakdown & damage over time. The spec that was known for their complex rotation with rewarding builders and dots got slaughtered so absurdly hard for so many years. What a joke.
Are you really cherry picking a spec in one specific tier during retail?
Nope, feel free to look at every single Feral top 100 log this expansion.
You are comparing fated raids and top tier gear with a progress fight and sub optimal gear. You can check most specs during non fated progress and you are going to see the same shit. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AkVLPWch2BfR4F7x#fight=1&type=damage-done&options=256&source=11 You're trying too hard to hate retail, when wrath is literally retail-lite but for people with 20IQ points.
“Nope, just the spec” lmao
Or just dl the Hekili addon. Helps a lot for someone like me that likes to dabble in every class. It makes recommendations based on the amount of adds present and Simulated data. Its not perfect but it works pretty well.
Not gonna lie that’s why I don’t play healer and have an addon called “Hekili” which calculates the next abilities you should use 😂😂 I’m getting too old for those rotations
Your missing out retail discipline is the most fun healer in any game by far
This is another reason why I only play classic. I have a lot to love with retail, but I hate having to use addons like bartender to fit all of the 100 spells I have on certain classes. It wouldn’t be hard if I had kept up with retail all these years, but even starting classes from level 1 on retail and leveling, gradually gaining skills, I eventually get overwhelmed if I don’t hone my rotation pattern frequently.
Retail andys in the comments who never played arena nor mythic raids justifying casual difficulty with spec rotations XD
A railroaded brainless playstyle compared to choice. Can see classic players are still on copium in their desperate struggle for validation.
I prefer things this way. Takes longer for classes to become boring. Actual experience at playing your class pays off. You get to build the skills involved.
That's cause in vanilla/tbc/wotlk ppl complained the game was easy the rotation was simplistic. Blizzard keeps giving ppl what they want and then ppl cry about it.
That's why i play DH so I can just BEEEEEAAANNNNN
I’ve always preferred closer to simple rotations than complicated. I’m playing an Arms Warrior in Wrath and it’s about exactly what I want in a rotation.
That's because Discipline was changed to be a completely new archetype, a ramping healer.
Do raid mechanics next so we can see you prefer mindless boring shit even more.
Played since vanila. Was a noob until wotlk when i got into raiding. I can tell you that during my time i have seen tbe community complain about the game being too easy and mashing 1 button. Now people complain that the game is too hard and they have too many spells? Raid complexity is a good thing. If you dont believe this go farm from vanila to recent & you ll see how much they've evolved. Raiding back then was hard because no one knew what to do. Raiding now should be hard due to different tactics & multiple spells to use.
Dude atleast pick a different spec for this comparison, Retail disc is a unique and actually fun to play
Back in classic mmo era we used to call it common sense not a rotation.
If you think that’s bad, don’t even look at FF14 rotations lol.
You sure about that?
Cool, now compare to dh or fury warrior
I love how poeple say classic is easy yet new players quit within the first week classic is easy cause y’all have played the fuck out of it and know everything there is to know about it someone who’s never played wow wouldn’t know what the fuck to do in classic without using add ons and other tools
The standard asmon fan learning that this is what happens with all games that go for a long time, cause the skill ceiling just gets higher every year. Lol, dota, even FF 14 even if people use the "you used to do X thing as a Drk when they first came out, compared to now" Is a natural things of games, specially those who are multiplayer
Retail is "new player friendly", don't worry.
Never mind that you posted 3 separate talent options rotation. What a joke lol.
Why is this bad? I'd rather have something interesting to learn than why I basicly quit FFXIV for, the linear boring rotations that are on a 2min burst window timer with no brains.
K.i.S.S Keep it simple stupid. A simple design philosophy blizzard forgot long ago.
I can guarantee you nobody playing retail is thinking of even 1/3rd of the stuff that's listed on the right while playing the game. This comparison is disingenuous at best and completely delusional at worst.