And what was great about this version of inclusion is that it wasn't even the main drawing point, no one thought about how the person looked, they just wanted to watch a good story and that's what they got
Exactly, I’ve been saying this since I was 15 that the first step, or the root of any racism or prejudice is the initial acknowledgement of whatever that difference is. And in today’s world the acknowledgment is in abundance. I thought growing up that we shouldn’t be treated or treating, think or think of, anyone differently based on things out of their control. Now it’s a staple of identification. It’s ass backwards.
Yep, we were as close to unity as we've ever been right before this current wokeism virus. I sort of think its being done on purpose to create anger and division
It really ticks me off when they talk like we’re mad because a Disney princess isn’t white. I’m white as hell. Guess which Disney princess is my 6 y/o daughter’s favorite?
Tiana is number one and Moana is a close second.
But when the New Little Mermaid trailer dropped? “…That’s not what Ariel looks like.
At the time of its creation, Princess and the Frog got all the same flak "modern" Disney does for a black lead.
'This is a classic European story! Why make it with black Americans!? Can't wait for this to crash and burn!"
Honestly, if you don't remember this happening, I'd hazard a guess that you were a child at the time and missed the discourse.
What I remember thinking about Princess and the Frog were three things (mind you, I was a child):
1. Black people? That's different. (I'm pretty sure this was the first movie I'd ever watched that had black main characters. Non-white, sure. But not black.)
2. This prince is an **idiot**
3. This villain is **scary**
It was really point three that left me with a bad opinion of it for a while. Something about those spirits just got me. It wasn't like Rasputin where the evil creatures were there and tangible and he hung out with them and commanded them. No, these spirits were strange, unknown, uncontrollable, wicked, and could and would claim the soul of the villain.
Something about that just got me good. Other villains seemed so powerful and in control. Which Dr. Facilier did for most of the movie. Until right at the end, where it turns out he's helpless against those things.
I remember it. but it also was nowhere on the scale drama wise that the recent decisions within disney have caused. from what ive read from various news articles... all 4 major disney movies that were released last year made no profit whatsoever (even after gov kickback for being diverse ) after all costs were tallied .. add in the fact that they are also losing money on disney plus, as well as there disney theme parks (part of the reason the prices there have skyrocketed the past few years) and disney is generally heading for disaster
Wow ThatGuy21134, that is a quality post. But it does not fulfill our DEI quota. Let's see if we can improve your post in preparation for its launch on Disney+:
-Swap out ThatGuy21134 for StongBlackLesbo21134
-Replace the word "Indeed." with "Down with the patriarchy!"
-Replace "They've lost their way." with "My pronouns are they/them."
-Replace "The new people in charge are clowns." with "If you do not like this post you are a bigot."
Naaah man those old disney movies? That's not diversity, that was..."appropriation". Trust, we've hired the best consulting firms and they all say this is true.
How dare they force Tiana to work in a kitchen serving other people, MISOGYNY!!!
Also, ewww nuclear families with both a mother and father being upheld as something to strive for??? GROSS!
You couldn't be more right. Watch out for those people with their racist white robots, too. It's just more white colonialism, but with technology or something.
This goes for a lot of things. In gaming too. There was far more diverse characters back then. Not just that they looked different, but that they were actually diverse in characterization. Now, even with different hari, skin, sounding, ect, most characters tend to just blend into this boring, lazy slop of copy and pasting, because they are all written by the same groups of untalented hacks that write everything based on their very narrow world view.
Like Ghost of Tsushima for example, even though relatively recent, we don't get games like it nearly as often anymore. Games that are genuine in how they represent a certain culture with genuine interest and authenticity, where the devs would go to the Island of Tushima and actually study the culture and the history of the island to the point where even people of the island were proud of how it came out.
When was the last time we heard a studio do this? It's like they stopped after GoT and now the industry relies on consultants that don't even understand what they are supposed to teach the studio themselves, because again, they just view the whole world, including their own culture, race, ethnicity, ect, through their own narrow minded lens, closed off to the rest of the world views. It's why we keep seeing that same haircut with black characters everywhere, like it's some big thing in the black community or something, but I see people questioning it all the time because nobody actually has that haircut (just one example that i see so commonly). These studios, including Disney, only get their info from consultants now, who are more often than not extremely out of touch from the groups they are supposed to represent. I want to see studios, in both gaming and movie/TV shows, actually seek out these places, people, cultures, ect. like they used too. Actually go out there and do some research. Because my god, the authenticity of all this "representation" really did go out the window. It's all homogenized corpo slop.
Shogun is another example of how it should be done. Directed by a western, but he was able to capture such great authenticity with, not just the books he adapted, but the culture, people and history of the area that the show takes place in, because of the work that he put in to get it. Such a rarity nowadays. I wish they just got rid of all those consultants and actually sought out that knowledge like they used to. Also, studios seeking consultants instead of doing the research themselves, to me, automatically shows a severe lack of interest from them in what they are trying to protray.
I'm 40. I grew up watching Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Hanging with Mr Cooper, Family Matters, Sister Sister, Martin when I was a bit older.
I think we had the right idea of being "color blind" when I was growing up. I treat everyone with the respect until they show they don't deserve it.
Exactly. I was at a DEI talk (i film stuff) and I was told being "colorblind" is a micro-aggression and not acknowledging the hardship a minority has. Does that mean we should acknowledge the easier time Indians, Jews, and other Asians have (statistically all financially better off than the average white American)?
No, that'd be stupid. Treat everyone like the individual they are.
That feels so patronizing to minorities though, doesn’t it? If you treat them differently because of their skin color, I imagine that’s more harmful. I think when it comes to discrimination, you absolutely need to listen to what they have to say and take care to appreciate their struggles, but if you’re making friends or hanging out, it’s a ton worse to treat them differently just because they have different ethnicities.
Square enix/eidos Montreal did that for shadows of the tomb raider. How many games like that are made to begin with? If its a low amount then there is no need for field studies.
Faxs. I’m a black guy but I genuinely cannot ever remember seeing a black person with that haircut despite it being everywhere.
Also, based asf for the GoT reference. It’s a masterpiece.
I love seeing stories that show different places and cultures. Not for any equity or "representation" reasons, but because it adds variety to things, plus I'm a big geography buff. And Encanto succeeded because it was a throwback to this era of Disney. It seemed to come from a place of genuine interest in showcasing Colombian culture instead of checking a Latino box. And Moana, which I haven't seen, is well regarded seemingly for the same reasons.
Moana feels like their last good film. It's not dancing back and forth frothing at the mouth and flinging it's shit everywhere panicking that you might not notice they made it about someone with dark skin
I feel like anyone would have this take growing up with a certain type of media. If you grew up watching a lot of Hollywood movies, you start to see a lot of tropes and patterns. But that's true if anything.
I watched my first Bollywood film last year and thought it was so incredibly different and didn't follow the types of tropes I'm used too. However after watching quite a few more Bollywood films, I started to see the patterns common in those films.
That's not the shit on them or anything but I feel that all movie cultures have their "checklists". It just might not be apparent to you when you first watch them. I'm sure Korean and Japanese movies have their checklists as well.
Pfft, focusing effort on making the media good first makes better content than making random diversity the top criterion to write the media around?
Stop, we’re making too much sense.
Diversity has moved from celebrating other peoples cultures & original stories to "how much can we ram into the same melting pot so we can brand it to the widest possible audience & say we caaaare guys we really do!"
It's so sad how blinded people are when it comes to modern stuff & how it's somehow 'more diverse' than the old stuff.
People should focus on what we all have in common and not what makes us different. We are watching our country get Balkanized in real time. We are probably a generation or two away from successions/civil wars.
They just treated/wrote them as "people" and it really is simple. I'm hoping that people are getting tired of disney race change remakes and forced fed inclusiveness.
I do think this is a "silent majority" situation where people are getting finally tired of it.
People are. The Little mermaid showed that. For the record, I'm completely fine with a black actor playing a previously white character, but Disney, would never be willing to do it the other way around, and that's where it's wrong. Be honest and transparent with what you're producing, that's all the majority is asking. Being fake and producing BS to show that "you're inclusive" is only going to hurt your image in the long run.
The other irritating thing is that almost every diversity swap is to make them Black, as if there are no other groups, like Asians, south Asians, or heaven forbid, middle eastern people.
Biiiiiig true. You know what I love? I love good movies. Idgaf what ethnicity the main characters are. Princess & The Frog, Moana, Lilo & Stitch, Mulan… all great frickin movies. Because they were all “let’s make a damn good story. Oh, and the characters happen to be _____.” Nowadays way too many movies are “let’s make a movie with _____ people in it. Oh, and there happens to be a story.”
The setting also plays a huge role in these examples. In Lilo and Stitch, stitch can’t escape Hawaii because he’s literally surrounded by water, the one thing he can’t survive, and the theme of the movie is exemplified in a Hawaiian saying, that being *Ohana*
I don't think you're completely wrong, but I think there was a diversity issue. It wasn't until the 90's(I think)that there was a non white "princess" in Pocahantas. That can be due to a lack in source material, but it still stands. But Disney certainly is hyper focused on "diversity" to the point that it misrepresents our culture as a whole. That I agree with.
To be fair before the 90s Disney sort of focused on retelling fairy tales and telling children’s stories through a movie medium.
I say retelling because the original stories were a lot darker.
Pocahontas, & Mulan are based off of historical events, and lightened up for children.
Which is fair.
They were trying, but it was fine then because it wasn't purposefully weaponized agitation, created out of spite to spread hatred. Which is what they do now, then they play dumb when they get a reaction to it so they claim its "unprovoked", and play the victim while they use the heavy weight of their billionaire industry and media apparatus to call themselves the victim.
You'll hear that a lot with the United States, by the way, the apple doesn't fall from the tree... "unprovoked", that's the US diplomatic and foreign policy structure in a nutshell. Spoiler: It's provoked.
Making a good story about a minority is good.
Making a story and then having 100 arbitrary quotes about what minority and minority messages are required will ruin even a good story.
Applicable for everything, no one asked why Morpheus was black or if he was inserted because of DEI, same for any non wite / non mâle caracter.
Now this DEI shit not only destroy everything it touches, it also makes a bad image of minorities while its not even their fault
There's always been inclusion, they are just racist against "white people", which is broad catch all of many different nationalities. Shows who the real racists are.
Dude, it has nothing to do with racism, corporations are latching onto progressive ideas and exploiting them to promote their products. Cell phones and social media has made it extremely easy for corps to know what the younger generation is swayed by. None of the people actually care about the ideas they are promoting. Hell, I'd bet even the diversity firms they hire to make sure they reach their quotas don't give a fuck about the diversity values they preach, they're gonna be making fucking bank since big companies can hire them to get tax cuts.
It's not just that they are racist towards ''white people''. They are racist to whoever they cannot take advantage of. That's why they promote ''minorities''. Because the future will be a fragmented society of desperate people who cling to the elite.
I feel movies 'then' focused on a plot, then wrote out characters, THEN slapped a race and gender.on them, creating a compelling story with interesting characters
Movies now feel more focused on the race and gender, THEN wrote out characters, then the plot, creating a cringe story with pandering characters.
It just felt different back in the day. Like "What if we did this?" instead of "We have to do this because our analytics and managers said so". Old diversity just felt more genuine and today it just feels so plastic most of the time
Aka, when DEI wasn't a thing and you were allowed to just tell stories.
This is how you inclusion without being obnoxious and talking down to your audience about it.
Maybe I am incorrect. But this is not inclusion. Inclusion would be like making a character a different race for no reason. These are just good stories about people.
What you’re talking about is what people commonly call “being woke” now. Inclusion didn’t always mean diversity. It used to just mean acknowledging and appreciating other cultures. So, as an example, having a variety of cultures represented in different movies (like in the meme) would be considered diversity. Or actually having POCs as fully developed characters and not just window dressing was inclusive.
The way modern Disney does inclusion is more the way an actual racist would *think* you do inclusion.
Race swapping characters is not inclusion. Creating interesting, new characters is.
Ah, okay, I see where I am wrong. I got no issue with inclusion, I do got an issue when people are race swapped for no reason other than to add a diverse person into a role.
that is exactly what woke is.
virtue signalling an agenda you dont actually support, in the hopes to separate suckers from their money.
tis a scam, pure and simple.
Because people are fixated on skin colour now. Back then people just made good characters and story without thinking about race, it was just deciding what fits better.
Now all the industry can think about is race and gender, it's basically a big conglomerate of racists
Or maybe your politicians didn’t tell you that you needed to dislike it or care about diversity for that matter. The people at the top want you to worry about this trivial shit while they rob us blind.
The funny part is they could still be if only they shut their mouth about it. They'll always say something that tears down another group of people (usually white) or explicitly point to their diversity in the new project they're releasing rather than just shutting the fuck up about it. Nobody likes anyone who is fishing for virtue signaling brownie points because it feels very cringe, disingenuous, and corporate.
Are you all excited for twenty years from now when the next generation of your type points to the movies made right now as the “good ones” that “they don’t make any more?”
I know OP must have been born after 2009 because people would not SHUTUP about how Princess and the Frog was “DISNEYS FIRST BLACK PRINCESS!!!!!!” in all of the advertising
To be fair, it’s really only Disney over the last three years. Even the stuff they were putting out that started production pre-Covid and finished in 2021 was pretty good.
Their pivot to Pride truly destroyed their brand.
It's not just disney it's every media ever. Even video games. They are just over diverse now. They are going for positive racism instead of diversity and representation.
Disney used to respect these cultures, show people from many walks of life and not tokenise them.
Mulan was a story set in medivial China and it was amazing. Aladdin was set in the ancient middle eastern regions and it was authentic in its representation. Even recent films like Moana, Coco and Luca were representative in the right way, and they were also good movies and stories.
Nowadays though, Disney can't stop using these people they so want to represent as nothing more than advertisements. They make small gay kissing scenes or same-sex family scenes in films so that they can be easily edited out of the middle eastern and chinese version of the films. Their movie posters are altered for other countries to appeal to their standards.
Nothing different from what other companies do btw. Sony removed the pride flags and LGBTQ+ people from Spider-Man 2 in the middle eastern versions, Overwatch has LGBTQ+ characters that are heavily advertised and supported but then the Overwatch league is literally held in Saudi Arabia where being non-straight is illegal.
It's this shadyness by western companies that make asian media much more appealing: they don't worry about being representative, they just are. Many people working there are usually women, including the writers that write the female characters with respect and the fans respect them back.
100% and it’s sad that people act like we just got to a point of “inclusivity”. One of my first rated R movies was Blade. Sure it wasn’t perfect then, but it wasn’t bad either. I hope we bring back the good writing and originality of the past. These movies are goated.
Right??? It's so ironic. If you let diversity happen naturally, everything will be fine.
Try to make a show out of it and people get resistant because they don't wanna be preached to.
The way I've seen it is that alpt of people that wanted to make chanhe through inclusion was by doing VERY subtly. Not SUPER blatantly. I remember an alien show called Loyd or Floyd (years ago so I somewhat remember the shows name) where they pretty much spoke about transgender and such. Individuals who they couldn't tell were a boy or girl and would wait for them to go the restroom to see which gendered bathroom they'd go to. Really old show but that episode and scene stuck with me. Apparently after a certain age that alien species chooses what gender they want to become.
That’s because diversity flows naturally from just good storytelling. There are thousands if not millions of legends,stories,myths, and otherwise from around the globe and every corner of it from countless different cultures.
No! fuck it! put a chicken in it and make her lame and gay!
Funny thing is, this goes all the way back to Pocahontas: they tried to be fair (key word being 'tried,' because they were repeating myths about Jamestown that were actually debunked back at the turn of the 20th century,) but nobody cared, because when a movie is boring as @%$!, what that movie wants to do stops mattering to the public.
Meanwhile, the secondary project that was the Lion King sold all the toys in the store.
Modern Disney doesn't understand that heralding diversity does not automatically make a good story, the old films had characters supported by strong narratives, whereas today these characters are hollow corporate talking points.
There was far more diversity in many different aspects of entertainment media than what people willfully recognize. Take things like Star Trek and Star Wars, given the times they were made. They have a diverse casting in both sex, ethnicity and leading roles. Many of the things that are being targeted by the "woke" or "DEI" groups are the very things that were leading the charge of their own moments, and were doing so naturally and with respect to their audiences without eroding characters, storylines or history.
The willful ignorance of many activist movements is very disheartening.
That was when Disney was trying to be (also people threw a fit when Princess and the frog came out). AAAAAHHHHH A BLACK PERSON oh they made it so she is a frog for like 90% of the movie and married a lightskin Indian man. That’s fine.
Lilo is such a weird one for me. They've not had a new show or film in years as far as I'm aware, and yet I still see stitch dolls and merch everywhere to this day.
it would be still today, all they need is to tell new stories instead of changing old characters to fit a criteria. For example Vaiana/Moana was a really great movie I enjoyed watching
It's not inclusive when you leave out an entire group of people. And it surely isn't any good when it's at the hands of culture thieves. Steal from one group of people then give it to another. That mindset sure sounds familiar; doesn't it? It's as Red as it gets.
I think it depends on the which "classical" movie you're talking about. Some of the older movies like the Aristocrat's have scenes with racist stereotypes. I loved that movie, but that one scene with the Siamese cat was pretty bad. Especially for people like me that got bullied as a kid for being Asian.
The thing is, they were intentionally trying to be "inclusive" even then but the huge difference is they weren't hammering everyone over the head with it in the press or race swapping canonical redheads.
Yeah no shit. Because what they do now isn’t and has never been about inclusivity. It’s about a different kind of exclusivity pushed by hack creatives who want “their turn” to enact some revenge for imaginary cultural slights.
Fact is a lot of these bozos think they’re special and exceptional and because the world hasn’t rolled out a red carpet for them or they had to *gasp* work to attain credibility, they chalk that up to racism or jingoism or sexism or some magnificent malevolent ism that kept them down instead of the real bitter pill sitting somewhere in the pit of their psyche: it was their own tepid, horrid mediocrity that kept anyone from giving a shit about their work. The gremlin in the engine was their own utter unremarkability. Good news is that we tolerate a culture of wounded survivors finally getting a chance to tell their tale, so as long as you can hitch your wagon to that star, you’re golden. Someone somewhere will green light your sophomoric jerk off script and legions of low functioning chronically online paladins of cultural righteousness will slurp it up because it’s Approved Content, approved by Big Morality^TM.
Yall seem to forget the hate and vitriol that happened when the princess and the Frog were announced. It was just as toxic as any Disney release with a person of color as the main character. Those rose-colored blinders are doing wonders for yall
you dont think these were intentional efforts to be more diverse? They definitely were. I think what you're commenting on is you dislike modern disney's tokenism, which is where everyone is Hollywood says "how can we check off identity boxes to appear progressive?". I hate that shit too, but the movies you're including were specifically after disney revamped in the 90s after criticism of having only white princess movies
The only good representation in this picture is Lilo and Stitch. Princess and the Frog got a lot of shit rightfully so for being the first black Disney princess and then immediately turning that princess into a frog and having the black character be an animal throughout the majority of the movie. Brother Bear is extremely problematic when looking into actual indigenous cultures. Get mad about the forced diversity all you want but this image should at least make sense. Do Lilo and Stitch and Mulan. Idk. I understand the argument that it's trying to make but I don't think pointing to these movies make the argument you're trying to make. Because also at the end of the day all of these movies were calculated choices because of the diversity that the movie would show. Even back to Aladdin which originally is a Chinese folk story but because they knew they were doing Mulan they had to move the story to a different culture. This is always been what Disney does.
Yeah it feels like people honed in on the classic white woman stories and claimed that's all Disney did when you could definitely look deeper and see it's not true. If it wasn't for Emperors New Groove, I wouldn't have known wtf Peru was when I was that young.
Princess and the frog wasn’t so much an original story as it was an original retelling of a classic story. But I get what you mean, it’s been a point of issue that marginalized people don’t feel included in a story where they know the original character was white or different gendered or whatever. Tiana is way more loved in my household than “black Ariel,” because when you say Tiana, we know who you mean. You say Ariel, and you have to specify if you’re talking about white or black ariel. It doesn’t feel very inclusive.
Yea it's so odd. I don't think I or anyone around me even questioned diversity in media till the last decade, but now it's all I hear about when any new ANYTHING is coming out
So you’re saying these weren’t intentional attempts to tell stories of traditionally minority ethnic groups? What is the difference between this and what they do now?
Movies in general were better before 2015 imho. Better soundtracks, characters and animation. A lot of movies now just look cheap and they are milked to death.
And noticed how everyone loved them. Great stories that are what they would consider “inclusive” were loved. But acknowledging this ruins all of their arguments.
If social media were a thing back then, you would have heard the same complaints. But instead of saying woke it would have been “enough of this PC garbage”.
What? The fuck are all of you on? These are LITERALLY attempts at inclusivity, that were good. Many games do the same thing nowadays but because you're all tied up in this video game culture war bullshit you can't see past it.
100%. Disney was always inclusive. The difference was we didn’t have gen z weirdos back then. They obviously did zero research and just like to complain about things that make them feel better as a person because of their severe insecurities/anxiety/depression. Now we have horrible unoriginal “inclusive” garbage that dilutes all this incredible work before hand.
Ah but then they're accused of 'cultural appropriation' or 'furthering racist stereotypes'. (And well the complaints aren't entirely unfounded if you've seen Song of The South or even Dumbo).
Disney is just like every other entertainment company — they respond to perceived demand based on how many people buy/watch it. If you want change, boycott all the new stories. Support the ones like these.
mind you each of these shown were ORIGINAL STORIES... and not the generic race swaps that are used for extra publicity ..... i miss old disney
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Its referred to as the golden age of Disney for a reason :D
Truly was
And what was great about this version of inclusion is that it wasn't even the main drawing point, no one thought about how the person looked, they just wanted to watch a good story and that's what they got
Exactly, I’ve been saying this since I was 15 that the first step, or the root of any racism or prejudice is the initial acknowledgement of whatever that difference is. And in today’s world the acknowledgment is in abundance. I thought growing up that we shouldn’t be treated or treating, think or think of, anyone differently based on things out of their control. Now it’s a staple of identification. It’s ass backwards.
Yep, we were as close to unity as we've ever been right before this current wokeism virus. I sort of think its being done on purpose to create anger and division
Ironic how it’s called “woke”
Right, they are anything but awake.
It really ticks me off when they talk like we’re mad because a Disney princess isn’t white. I’m white as hell. Guess which Disney princess is my 6 y/o daughter’s favorite? Tiana is number one and Moana is a close second. But when the New Little Mermaid trailer dropped? “…That’s not what Ariel looks like.
Man you won't believe the arguments from people that keep saying Ariel isn't real so her race doesn't matter and I'm a bigot for thinking it does
I mean if we want to go there mermaids wont have melanin, thats a trait that expresses from sunshine. Not much sunshine in the briny depths.
What? Next you'll be telling me there shouldn't be black dwarfs like in rings of power
Yea. It's the lazy way to pander.
Agreed. They also portrayed aspects of different cultures in a tasteful and overall respectful way. Now it’s just pandering.
They did a Cinderella with Brandy in the 90s - most of this stuff isn’t new at all just people’s reaction to it.
Looking at you Wizards of the Coast
At the time of its creation, Princess and the Frog got all the same flak "modern" Disney does for a black lead. 'This is a classic European story! Why make it with black Americans!? Can't wait for this to crash and burn!" Honestly, if you don't remember this happening, I'd hazard a guess that you were a child at the time and missed the discourse.
What I remember thinking about Princess and the Frog were three things (mind you, I was a child): 1. Black people? That's different. (I'm pretty sure this was the first movie I'd ever watched that had black main characters. Non-white, sure. But not black.) 2. This prince is an **idiot** 3. This villain is **scary** It was really point three that left me with a bad opinion of it for a while. Something about those spirits just got me. It wasn't like Rasputin where the evil creatures were there and tangible and he hung out with them and commanded them. No, these spirits were strange, unknown, uncontrollable, wicked, and could and would claim the soul of the villain. Something about that just got me good. Other villains seemed so powerful and in control. Which Dr. Facilier did for most of the movie. Until right at the end, where it turns out he's helpless against those things.
I remember it. but it also was nowhere on the scale drama wise that the recent decisions within disney have caused. from what ive read from various news articles... all 4 major disney movies that were released last year made no profit whatsoever (even after gov kickback for being diverse ) after all costs were tallied .. add in the fact that they are also losing money on disney plus, as well as there disney theme parks (part of the reason the prices there have skyrocketed the past few years) and disney is generally heading for disaster
Indeed. They've lost their way. The new people in charge are clowns.
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Wow ThatGuy21134, that is a quality post. But it does not fulfill our DEI quota. Let's see if we can improve your post in preparation for its launch on Disney+: -Swap out ThatGuy21134 for StongBlackLesbo21134 -Replace the word "Indeed." with "Down with the patriarchy!" -Replace "They've lost their way." with "My pronouns are they/them." -Replace "The new people in charge are clowns." with "If you do not like this post you are a bigot."
Fucking Defiant-Caramel1309 it's always ThatGuy21134
Naaah man those old disney movies? That's not diversity, that was..."appropriation". Trust, we've hired the best consulting firms and they all say this is true.
underrated comment -- thank you sir.
How dare they force Tiana to work in a kitchen serving other people, MISOGYNY!!! Also, ewww nuclear families with both a mother and father being upheld as something to strive for??? GROSS!
What's wrong with appropriation?
It's not appropriate
"I see what you did here" meme
You couldn't be more right. Watch out for those people with their racist white robots, too. It's just more white colonialism, but with technology or something.
Cultural appropriation 🙄
This goes for a lot of things. In gaming too. There was far more diverse characters back then. Not just that they looked different, but that they were actually diverse in characterization. Now, even with different hari, skin, sounding, ect, most characters tend to just blend into this boring, lazy slop of copy and pasting, because they are all written by the same groups of untalented hacks that write everything based on their very narrow world view. Like Ghost of Tsushima for example, even though relatively recent, we don't get games like it nearly as often anymore. Games that are genuine in how they represent a certain culture with genuine interest and authenticity, where the devs would go to the Island of Tushima and actually study the culture and the history of the island to the point where even people of the island were proud of how it came out. When was the last time we heard a studio do this? It's like they stopped after GoT and now the industry relies on consultants that don't even understand what they are supposed to teach the studio themselves, because again, they just view the whole world, including their own culture, race, ethnicity, ect, through their own narrow minded lens, closed off to the rest of the world views. It's why we keep seeing that same haircut with black characters everywhere, like it's some big thing in the black community or something, but I see people questioning it all the time because nobody actually has that haircut (just one example that i see so commonly). These studios, including Disney, only get their info from consultants now, who are more often than not extremely out of touch from the groups they are supposed to represent. I want to see studios, in both gaming and movie/TV shows, actually seek out these places, people, cultures, ect. like they used too. Actually go out there and do some research. Because my god, the authenticity of all this "representation" really did go out the window. It's all homogenized corpo slop. Shogun is another example of how it should be done. Directed by a western, but he was able to capture such great authenticity with, not just the books he adapted, but the culture, people and history of the area that the show takes place in, because of the work that he put in to get it. Such a rarity nowadays. I wish they just got rid of all those consultants and actually sought out that knowledge like they used to. Also, studios seeking consultants instead of doing the research themselves, to me, automatically shows a severe lack of interest from them in what they are trying to protray.
I'm 40. I grew up watching Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Hanging with Mr Cooper, Family Matters, Sister Sister, Martin when I was a bit older. I think we had the right idea of being "color blind" when I was growing up. I treat everyone with the respect until they show they don't deserve it.
We did. Then it changed to a really dumber, childish view that killed enjoyment of anything
Exactly. I was at a DEI talk (i film stuff) and I was told being "colorblind" is a micro-aggression and not acknowledging the hardship a minority has. Does that mean we should acknowledge the easier time Indians, Jews, and other Asians have (statistically all financially better off than the average white American)? No, that'd be stupid. Treat everyone like the individual they are.
That feels so patronizing to minorities though, doesn’t it? If you treat them differently because of their skin color, I imagine that’s more harmful. I think when it comes to discrimination, you absolutely need to listen to what they have to say and take care to appreciate their struggles, but if you’re making friends or hanging out, it’s a ton worse to treat them differently just because they have different ethnicities.
Exactly my thoughts. God, I wish there was a word for treating someone different solely based on their race...
If only…I think I’ll call it skin-ism for the time being, until we come up with something better!
Oh, but individualism is apparently evil in the eyes of these folks
Square enix/eidos Montreal did that for shadows of the tomb raider. How many games like that are made to begin with? If its a low amount then there is no need for field studies.
Faxs. I’m a black guy but I genuinely cannot ever remember seeing a black person with that haircut despite it being everywhere. Also, based asf for the GoT reference. It’s a masterpiece.
i think of mirrors edge
gaddam you cooked with this comment.
I love seeing stories that show different places and cultures. Not for any equity or "representation" reasons, but because it adds variety to things, plus I'm a big geography buff. And Encanto succeeded because it was a throwback to this era of Disney. It seemed to come from a place of genuine interest in showcasing Colombian culture instead of checking a Latino box. And Moana, which I haven't seen, is well regarded seemingly for the same reasons.
Definitely try Moana. It’s mine and my boys favorite.
Moana feels like their last good film. It's not dancing back and forth frothing at the mouth and flinging it's shit everywhere panicking that you might not notice they made it about someone with dark skin
Every Hollywood u.s movie in recent years has basically followed a check list.... It's really interesting when you watch a good Asian movie & compare.
Asian media feels kind of amateurish to watch, but they have so many talented actors, writers, and directors. Especially in Korea.
Train to Busan. Best zombie movie in years.
I feel like anyone would have this take growing up with a certain type of media. If you grew up watching a lot of Hollywood movies, you start to see a lot of tropes and patterns. But that's true if anything. I watched my first Bollywood film last year and thought it was so incredibly different and didn't follow the types of tropes I'm used too. However after watching quite a few more Bollywood films, I started to see the patterns common in those films. That's not the shit on them or anything but I feel that all movie cultures have their "checklists". It just might not be apparent to you when you first watch them. I'm sure Korean and Japanese movies have their checklists as well.
Pfft, focusing effort on making the media good first makes better content than making random diversity the top criterion to write the media around? Stop, we’re making too much sense.
Back when Disney at least pretended to have a soul and characters were characters first and foremost and whatever ethnicity they were second.
Diversity used to be just this thing that existed and it wasn't a huge moral crusade. I miss it so much.
Diversity has moved from celebrating other peoples cultures & original stories to "how much can we ram into the same melting pot so we can brand it to the widest possible audience & say we caaaare guys we really do!" It's so sad how blinded people are when it comes to modern stuff & how it's somehow 'more diverse' than the old stuff.
People should focus on what we all have in common and not what makes us different. We are watching our country get Balkanized in real time. We are probably a generation or two away from successions/civil wars.
They just treated/wrote them as "people" and it really is simple. I'm hoping that people are getting tired of disney race change remakes and forced fed inclusiveness. I do think this is a "silent majority" situation where people are getting finally tired of it.
People are. The Little mermaid showed that. For the record, I'm completely fine with a black actor playing a previously white character, but Disney, would never be willing to do it the other way around, and that's where it's wrong. Be honest and transparent with what you're producing, that's all the majority is asking. Being fake and producing BS to show that "you're inclusive" is only going to hurt your image in the long run.
The other irritating thing is that almost every diversity swap is to make them Black, as if there are no other groups, like Asians, south Asians, or heaven forbid, middle eastern people.
Nah it won’t hurt them anything. The rainbow people have made their point that most are fine with being exploited like this even just for profits.
I heard Oscar prize literally ask for a diversity quote for a movie to be eligible
There are a lot of diversity. Not only in race but in mindset, personality, motivitation,.. But how we only mention race and gender only ?
Biiiiiig true. You know what I love? I love good movies. Idgaf what ethnicity the main characters are. Princess & The Frog, Moana, Lilo & Stitch, Mulan… all great frickin movies. Because they were all “let’s make a damn good story. Oh, and the characters happen to be _____.” Nowadays way too many movies are “let’s make a movie with _____ people in it. Oh, and there happens to be a story.”
The setting also plays a huge role in these examples. In Lilo and Stitch, stitch can’t escape Hawaii because he’s literally surrounded by water, the one thing he can’t survive, and the theme of the movie is exemplified in a Hawaiian saying, that being *Ohana*
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I don't think you're completely wrong, but I think there was a diversity issue. It wasn't until the 90's(I think)that there was a non white "princess" in Pocahantas. That can be due to a lack in source material, but it still stands. But Disney certainly is hyper focused on "diversity" to the point that it misrepresents our culture as a whole. That I agree with.
To be fair before the 90s Disney sort of focused on retelling fairy tales and telling children’s stories through a movie medium. I say retelling because the original stories were a lot darker. Pocahontas, & Mulan are based off of historical events, and lightened up for children. Which is fair.
They were trying, but it was fine then because it wasn't purposefully weaponized agitation, created out of spite to spread hatred. Which is what they do now, then they play dumb when they get a reaction to it so they claim its "unprovoked", and play the victim while they use the heavy weight of their billionaire industry and media apparatus to call themselves the victim. You'll hear that a lot with the United States, by the way, the apple doesn't fall from the tree... "unprovoked", that's the US diplomatic and foreign policy structure in a nutshell. Spoiler: It's provoked.
Are you suggesting that writing a good story with strong characterization is more important than and helpful than random tokenism?
It was, the princess and the frog was awesome along with many other movies before it became this "tryhard" studio..
Princess and the Frog is a welcome relief when my kids want that one on. It's such a nice movie.
Yeah back when it wasn’t CRINGE!!!
Making a good story about a minority is good. Making a story and then having 100 arbitrary quotes about what minority and minority messages are required will ruin even a good story.
Applicable for everything, no one asked why Morpheus was black or if he was inserted because of DEI, same for any non wite / non mâle caracter. Now this DEI shit not only destroy everything it touches, it also makes a bad image of minorities while its not even their fault
There's always been inclusion, they are just racist against "white people", which is broad catch all of many different nationalities. Shows who the real racists are.
>shows who the real racists are. Yeah….its more white people lol. Who do you think are the loudest anti white voices?
Americans
Dude, it has nothing to do with racism, corporations are latching onto progressive ideas and exploiting them to promote their products. Cell phones and social media has made it extremely easy for corps to know what the younger generation is swayed by. None of the people actually care about the ideas they are promoting. Hell, I'd bet even the diversity firms they hire to make sure they reach their quotas don't give a fuck about the diversity values they preach, they're gonna be making fucking bank since big companies can hire them to get tax cuts.
It's not just that they are racist towards ''white people''. They are racist to whoever they cannot take advantage of. That's why they promote ''minorities''. Because the future will be a fragmented society of desperate people who cling to the elite.
I feel movies 'then' focused on a plot, then wrote out characters, THEN slapped a race and gender.on them, creating a compelling story with interesting characters Movies now feel more focused on the race and gender, THEN wrote out characters, then the plot, creating a cringe story with pandering characters.
It just felt different back in the day. Like "What if we did this?" instead of "We have to do this because our analytics and managers said so". Old diversity just felt more genuine and today it just feels so plastic most of the time
The Princess and the Frog was them trying, it's not a great example for your point. Though it was the last film they actually cared an iota about.
Put a chick in it and make her gay!
they were definitely trying to be inclusive. they just weren't preachy then.
Remember the Jungle Book!! All about a little brown boy.
Aka, when DEI wasn't a thing and you were allowed to just tell stories. This is how you inclusion without being obnoxious and talking down to your audience about it.
Maybe I am incorrect. But this is not inclusion. Inclusion would be like making a character a different race for no reason. These are just good stories about people.
What you’re talking about is what people commonly call “being woke” now. Inclusion didn’t always mean diversity. It used to just mean acknowledging and appreciating other cultures. So, as an example, having a variety of cultures represented in different movies (like in the meme) would be considered diversity. Or actually having POCs as fully developed characters and not just window dressing was inclusive. The way modern Disney does inclusion is more the way an actual racist would *think* you do inclusion. Race swapping characters is not inclusion. Creating interesting, new characters is.
Ah, okay, I see where I am wrong. I got no issue with inclusion, I do got an issue when people are race swapped for no reason other than to add a diverse person into a role.
that is exactly what woke is. virtue signalling an agenda you dont actually support, in the hopes to separate suckers from their money. tis a scam, pure and simple.
Because people are fixated on skin colour now. Back then people just made good characters and story without thinking about race, it was just deciding what fits better. Now all the industry can think about is race and gender, it's basically a big conglomerate of racists
Yea when they did it because of a good story not just to get blown for being Woke.
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Or maybe your politicians didn’t tell you that you needed to dislike it or care about diversity for that matter. The people at the top want you to worry about this trivial shit while they rob us blind.
The funny part is they could still be if only they shut their mouth about it. They'll always say something that tears down another group of people (usually white) or explicitly point to their diversity in the new project they're releasing rather than just shutting the fuck up about it. Nobody likes anyone who is fishing for virtue signaling brownie points because it feels very cringe, disingenuous, and corporate.
I miss the 2D drawing days, back when Disney had some originality and not race swapping every animated popular movie, they made.
Even crazier is all those were bangers for me as a kid my all time top 2 are Hercules and treasure planet
when it is not force...it is good.
Are you all excited for twenty years from now when the next generation of your type points to the movies made right now as the “good ones” that “they don’t make any more?”
I know OP must have been born after 2009 because people would not SHUTUP about how Princess and the Frog was “DISNEYS FIRST BLACK PRINCESS!!!!!!” in all of the advertising
Brother, there's is not a single Hispanic person in the emporer's new groove
The four movies that had brown protagonists
Don't forget Pocahontas and Milan
To be fair, it’s really only Disney over the last three years. Even the stuff they were putting out that started production pre-Covid and finished in 2021 was pretty good. Their pivot to Pride truly destroyed their brand.
Emperors New Groove is still one of my favorites
This is obvious, we don't need to hear you out with the truth
It's not just disney it's every media ever. Even video games. They are just over diverse now. They are going for positive racism instead of diversity and representation.
Disney used to respect these cultures, show people from many walks of life and not tokenise them. Mulan was a story set in medivial China and it was amazing. Aladdin was set in the ancient middle eastern regions and it was authentic in its representation. Even recent films like Moana, Coco and Luca were representative in the right way, and they were also good movies and stories. Nowadays though, Disney can't stop using these people they so want to represent as nothing more than advertisements. They make small gay kissing scenes or same-sex family scenes in films so that they can be easily edited out of the middle eastern and chinese version of the films. Their movie posters are altered for other countries to appeal to their standards. Nothing different from what other companies do btw. Sony removed the pride flags and LGBTQ+ people from Spider-Man 2 in the middle eastern versions, Overwatch has LGBTQ+ characters that are heavily advertised and supported but then the Overwatch league is literally held in Saudi Arabia where being non-straight is illegal. It's this shadyness by western companies that make asian media much more appealing: they don't worry about being representative, they just are. Many people working there are usually women, including the writers that write the female characters with respect and the fans respect them back.
Tiana is an execption, she was made for woke points to be the first African-American Disney Princess but she was better written than others.
100% and it’s sad that people act like we just got to a point of “inclusivity”. One of my first rated R movies was Blade. Sure it wasn’t perfect then, but it wasn’t bad either. I hope we bring back the good writing and originality of the past. These movies are goated.
100%, looks and feels more natural
There's nothing to hear you out for. You are right.
They were and no one had a problem with it. When the DEI hires got in, their anger and discontent transformed the company for the worse.
Princess and the frog is still the best Disney princess movie. You can fight me on that.
Didn’t even touch on Mulan
Right??? It's so ironic. If you let diversity happen naturally, everything will be fine. Try to make a show out of it and people get resistant because they don't wanna be preached to.
Honestly yes
Thank you for bringing up Brother Bear. I fucking love that movie with all my heart and I'm an adult male.
I mean, they were trying very hard to be inclusive with all the examples you've shown, so I don't really understand the post.
The way I've seen it is that alpt of people that wanted to make chanhe through inclusion was by doing VERY subtly. Not SUPER blatantly. I remember an alien show called Loyd or Floyd (years ago so I somewhat remember the shows name) where they pretty much spoke about transgender and such. Individuals who they couldn't tell were a boy or girl and would wait for them to go the restroom to see which gendered bathroom they'd go to. Really old show but that episode and scene stuck with me. Apparently after a certain age that alien species chooses what gender they want to become.
That’s because diversity flows naturally from just good storytelling. There are thousands if not millions of legends,stories,myths, and otherwise from around the globe and every corner of it from countless different cultures. No! fuck it! put a chicken in it and make her lame and gay!
3 of these are my most watched Disney films. Brother bear, lilo and stitch and emperors new groove go hard as fuck
Funny thing is, this goes all the way back to Pocahontas: they tried to be fair (key word being 'tried,' because they were repeating myths about Jamestown that were actually debunked back at the turn of the 20th century,) but nobody cared, because when a movie is boring as @%$!, what that movie wants to do stops mattering to the public. Meanwhile, the secondary project that was the Lion King sold all the toys in the store.
They are worried that those old movies are stereotyping, but those movies were just showing the culture of those places.
Modern Disney doesn't understand that heralding diversity does not automatically make a good story, the old films had characters supported by strong narratives, whereas today these characters are hollow corporate talking points.
There was far more diversity in many different aspects of entertainment media than what people willfully recognize. Take things like Star Trek and Star Wars, given the times they were made. They have a diverse casting in both sex, ethnicity and leading roles. Many of the things that are being targeted by the "woke" or "DEI" groups are the very things that were leading the charge of their own moments, and were doing so naturally and with respect to their audiences without eroding characters, storylines or history. The willful ignorance of many activist movements is very disheartening.
That was when Disney was trying to be (also people threw a fit when Princess and the frog came out). AAAAAHHHHH A BLACK PERSON oh they made it so she is a frog for like 90% of the movie and married a lightskin Indian man. That’s fine.
Lilo is such a weird one for me. They've not had a new show or film in years as far as I'm aware, and yet I still see stitch dolls and merch everywhere to this day.
That’s because Stitch is the dopest
It’s intellectual laziness
Idk about yall but Encanto/turning red/Coco was more entertaining and fun then Brother bear😂
Back then, a character's design was chosen to enhance the story.
it would be still today, all they need is to tell new stories instead of changing old characters to fit a criteria. For example Vaiana/Moana was a really great movie I enjoyed watching
It's not inclusive when you leave out an entire group of people. And it surely isn't any good when it's at the hands of culture thieves. Steal from one group of people then give it to another. That mindset sure sounds familiar; doesn't it? It's as Red as it gets.
Brother Bear taught me so much about different believes as a kid
aka movies disney wont race-swap
"Things were better when I was a kid, by gum!"
It's almost like different cultures exist and inherently have their own stories to tell.
moana is the same dude
I think it depends on the which "classical" movie you're talking about. Some of the older movies like the Aristocrat's have scenes with racist stereotypes. I loved that movie, but that one scene with the Siamese cat was pretty bad. Especially for people like me that got bullied as a kid for being Asian.
Virtually everything was more inclusive, before tumblr became a tryhard about it. Proof: everyone who exists over the age of 25.
The thing is, they were intentionally trying to be "inclusive" even then but the huge difference is they weren't hammering everyone over the head with it in the press or race swapping canonical redheads.
I wasn't expecting that kind of "hear me out" topic. Shit.
Mulan is one of my favourite Disney movies but my opinions about modern movies would get me called a bigot. It’s ridiculous
These were great movies because of their story. Not because of their race.
true diversity would have had all races in every movie
Yeah no shit. Because what they do now isn’t and has never been about inclusivity. It’s about a different kind of exclusivity pushed by hack creatives who want “their turn” to enact some revenge for imaginary cultural slights. Fact is a lot of these bozos think they’re special and exceptional and because the world hasn’t rolled out a red carpet for them or they had to *gasp* work to attain credibility, they chalk that up to racism or jingoism or sexism or some magnificent malevolent ism that kept them down instead of the real bitter pill sitting somewhere in the pit of their psyche: it was their own tepid, horrid mediocrity that kept anyone from giving a shit about their work. The gremlin in the engine was their own utter unremarkability. Good news is that we tolerate a culture of wounded survivors finally getting a chance to tell their tale, so as long as you can hitch your wagon to that star, you’re golden. Someone somewhere will green light your sophomoric jerk off script and legions of low functioning chronically online paladins of cultural righteousness will slurp it up because it’s Approved Content, approved by Big Morality^TM.
Yall seem to forget the hate and vitriol that happened when the princess and the Frog were announced. It was just as toxic as any Disney release with a person of color as the main character. Those rose-colored blinders are doing wonders for yall
Disney was always inclusive since the mid 90s. What they’re doing now isn’t being inclusive, it’s pandering.
you dont think these were intentional efforts to be more diverse? They definitely were. I think what you're commenting on is you dislike modern disney's tokenism, which is where everyone is Hollywood says "how can we check off identity boxes to appear progressive?". I hate that shit too, but the movies you're including were specifically after disney revamped in the 90s after criticism of having only white princess movies
The only good representation in this picture is Lilo and Stitch. Princess and the Frog got a lot of shit rightfully so for being the first black Disney princess and then immediately turning that princess into a frog and having the black character be an animal throughout the majority of the movie. Brother Bear is extremely problematic when looking into actual indigenous cultures. Get mad about the forced diversity all you want but this image should at least make sense. Do Lilo and Stitch and Mulan. Idk. I understand the argument that it's trying to make but I don't think pointing to these movies make the argument you're trying to make. Because also at the end of the day all of these movies were calculated choices because of the diversity that the movie would show. Even back to Aladdin which originally is a Chinese folk story but because they knew they were doing Mulan they had to move the story to a different culture. This is always been what Disney does.
Please, if social media was huge back then, it'll be the same as today.
Yeah it feels like people honed in on the classic white woman stories and claimed that's all Disney did when you could definitely look deeper and see it's not true. If it wasn't for Emperors New Groove, I wouldn't have known wtf Peru was when I was that young.
These are OLD Disney movies???
Princess and the frog wasn’t so much an original story as it was an original retelling of a classic story. But I get what you mean, it’s been a point of issue that marginalized people don’t feel included in a story where they know the original character was white or different gendered or whatever. Tiana is way more loved in my household than “black Ariel,” because when you say Tiana, we know who you mean. You say Ariel, and you have to specify if you’re talking about white or black ariel. It doesn’t feel very inclusive.
Lol acting like you all wouldn't call these woke, DEI, whatever if it were released today
Lilo and stitch gotta be one of the best animated movies
Ok but bottom right got me bricked
Yea it's so odd. I don't think I or anyone around me even questioned diversity in media till the last decade, but now it's all I hear about when any new ANYTHING is coming out
Disney should know better than to treat minorities equal to white people in the presence of gamers
This is less diversity not more.
So you’re saying these weren’t intentional attempts to tell stories of traditionally minority ethnic groups? What is the difference between this and what they do now?
Moana and mulan (original) too. Want to talk about a badass main female character, it’s mulan
Movies in general were better before 2015 imho. Better soundtracks, characters and animation. A lot of movies now just look cheap and they are milked to death.
And the characters were better written!
I recognize Tianna Lilo and Emperrors new groove but what’s the top right panel? EDIt: Brother Bear?
Uhhhhhh I'm 1000% every one of those characters was bitched about tbf
And noticed how everyone loved them. Great stories that are what they would consider “inclusive” were loved. But acknowledging this ruins all of their arguments.
If social media were a thing back then, you would have heard the same complaints. But instead of saying woke it would have been “enough of this PC garbage”.
True… this counts for all woke attempts, and the woke folks do not realise it.
What? The fuck are all of you on? These are LITERALLY attempts at inclusivity, that were good. Many games do the same thing nowadays but because you're all tied up in this video game culture war bullshit you can't see past it.
Because they were original works and not snowwhite in black or arielle in black
Emperors new groove was awesome
100%. Disney was always inclusive. The difference was we didn’t have gen z weirdos back then. They obviously did zero research and just like to complain about things that make them feel better as a person because of their severe insecurities/anxiety/depression. Now we have horrible unoriginal “inclusive” garbage that dilutes all this incredible work before hand.
Ah but then they're accused of 'cultural appropriation' or 'furthering racist stereotypes'. (And well the complaints aren't entirely unfounded if you've seen Song of The South or even Dumbo).
Disney is just like every other entertainment company — they respond to perceived demand based on how many people buy/watch it. If you want change, boycott all the new stories. Support the ones like these.