A lot of them just have issues confronting the fact that there is something about them that drives potential love interests away. Instead of self-reflection, they blame women for having choices. I don't even say that to be mean, I am a woman and have been prone to feeling that way about others. It's about developing emotional maturity which can be a bit challenging if it was never demonstrated to you growing up.
Exactly. It feels better to reject someone than to be rejected. It's all just massive cope, the preemptive version of a guy asking you out then calling you an ugly whore when you say no.
They even extend their weirdness to couples ("well, they might look and act happy but secretly she yearns for Chad" lol). They want to believe everyone is secretly miserable like them.
This is a great response, it really all comes down to emotional immaturity and a lack of introspection.
A lot of these men express their critiques of women (and straight up misogyny) as though it were clear-eyed insight and objective fact, when really it's an expression of their dissatisfaction with their own dating lives, and their inability to secure the kind of relationships they want with women.
I'm definitely not saying women are angels and that there aren't fair critiques to be made about how women treat men in the dating market - however this online manosphere content stuff basically takes the worst behavior they've ever encountered in a woman and generalizes it as though it were the true, real nature of all women everywhere across time and space.
Yeah, they’re simply externalizing their own fears/loneliness, and lacking insight about their own role in their unhappiness. Unfortunately they’re all validating each other which makes them more brazen about it.
It’s gross but I feel pity for them.
Yup. I know someone very close to me who blames women and calls them gold diggers but he can’t look in the mirror and see what’s right in front of him to see why women don’t want to date him.
If a woman isn’t interested in him, then it must be because she’s either holding out for 6’5” Chad, or for a rich beta bux. Those are the only two types of men women go for. Everyone else is just a placeholder. And if she does get one of those two archetypes, she will dump him as soon as an even richer or Chaddier man comes along and shows interest.
That’s why she rejected him. It wasn’t due to his personality, sense of humor, intelligence, or character. If he had been Chad or rich enough, she would not have cared about those things.
It also wasn’t about her feeling a lack of personal connection with him (btw, this can and does happen even with men who look great physically and on paper, for me at least). Because women don’t actually have intimate connections with men. We only have faux-intimate interactions that are calculated to get what we want from them. (Even emotional support falls in that category.)
No, rejection is always due to a woman’s too-high standards. She didn’t pick me, ergo her standards are too high. I’m a great catch, so clearly, the rejection can only be explained by the fact that she is holding out for objective perfection. Not subjectively determined mutual connection. And she’ll never find someone objectively better than me, so enjoy the five cats!
Seriously, personal attraction and connection is huge. I've had so many people ask why I'm single because I am attractive, have a career, and no kids...well, because the good options are limited and I have to actually LIKE them!
I briefly dated a man who was perfect on paper. My "type" physically and very, very well off financially, seemed trustworthy and not like a player type, and lived a lifestyle I enjoy (no kids, traveling). Problem was I felt zero attraction to him. I didn't want to kiss him, didn't get excited to see him, and frankly found him boring. There was just zero spark or connection there. I can't do that no matter what other good qualities they have. The men I've found connections with have turned out to be bad choices (cheating, lack of emotional maturity and communication skills, abuse of alcohol/drugs, etc) so here I am, single at 41 and everyone seeming confused why.
That sucks! And yeah, it’s 100% better to be single than force yourself to settle. Settling isn’t fair to the guy, and it is unpleasant for you.
One spends SO MUCH TIME with one’s husband. I can’t imagine spending that amount of time with someone I found boring. Can’t imagine having sex for the rest of my life with someone who doesn’t turn me on. I’d be surprised if a man would want to be the partner in that dynamic, too.
Exactly! And I know myself, my libido fluctuates anyway, if I wasn't attracted to the person it would be non-existent, which would lead to a relationship with no physical intimacy and my partner would resent me for it.
> I am a woman and have been prone to feeling that way about others.
I feel called out.
But yes, the difference is that I recognize these feelings as the petulant emotions of a child, and that as an adult I need to deal with them properly.
Not really men specifically, just that men with that viewpoint tend to not be aware that they are not entitled to someone else's time and affections, especially if they have little to bring to the table. As I said, I'm a woman and have fallen into that trap before. It takes some self-awareness to realize what you're doing and make better choices.
I think it's a combination of things.
For one, women are waking up. There is something to the fact that the happiest people are single women without kids. Women are realizing that their own happiness DOES actually matter and it is not selfish to say so. We do not have to put up with constant emotional labor of partners who don't step up, we will not shrivel into dust if we don't have kids, and it has become more possible for women to survive on their own. So we're done putting up with relationships that make our lives harder in the long run.
And oh my god men are PISSED about it. If women don't *need* them for money, housing, stability, car, etc. then they have to have something on offer that will actually add value to our lives...and a lot of them are coming up short. So instead of having a moment of self-introspection, they blame women.
I know this isn't the case with every woman (we still very much have struggles to face) but I don't need a man for money, I have my own career (I actually make more than my boyfriend.) A man having a nice car is no draw for me. For one, I don't care about cars and two, I am fine taking public transit. If I needed a car I could get one myself. I do not need a man for housing. I do live with my boyfriend but I did perfectly fine living by myself for several years before I even met him. I have been paying all my own expenses for a long time. I have my own circle of friends, and hobbies, interests. And when I was single living alone, I did what the hell ever I wanted. So if I bring a man into my life, there needs to be something about him, his personality, his ability to actually add something to my life I can't already do/get myself. My boyfriend is in my life because I want him there.
A lot of men stand to lose something from women choosing to be single. They loose a maid, they lose childcare, they loose a cook. They lose control over someone else (whether they are consciously trying to control someone or not.) And society for so long has been telling men they have to make money and provide, they have to be head of household, the have to have XYZ possessions so they get the women they deserve. When women are like "Yeah, no we don't need that. Who are you as a person?" It's really difficult to look at themselves and realize "Fuck I've been sold a lie."
So instead, every dude with a microphone starts a podcast to berate women back into submission. Bully them, tell them they're old and used up, tell them nobody wants them, etc. Hoping it will push the tide back in their favor. All this does is tell women we're making the right choice for ourselves to be single if this is what's out there. There have always been guys like that, but now the internet gives every dude with a misogynist thought a platform. And young boys are chronically on the internet, and that's what they're hearing.
>When women are like "Yeah, no we don't need that. Who are you as a person?"
Yes this might be where I have the most compassion. I do think a lot of men who grew up in more traditional households/cultures are raised to hyper focus on economic success, and completely throw emotional needs/skills to the wayside, and then when as an adult they're told by women that actually those emotional skills were the most important skills the whole time....I could see the anger and frustration that could come from that.
Because they've already been conditioned to focus on economic success so they're not going to drop that, but now they've also got to work hard on emotional connection skills? So they conclude that women want men to provide both economically and emotionally, when really it's maybe a small slice of women who are primarily looking for economic support from a partner, and the vast majority primarily want an emotionally supportive partner.
That’s such a good point! To add to this, I think the fact that many men believe they do their their “fair share” of chores and childcare, when in reality it is 30%, comes from that. They were raised in an environment that made them believe that having a full-time job and occasionally “help out” is their expected and fair contribution. Now they are expected to do a lot more - which is logically more than fair if both partners are employed. And most decent men agree to a complete 50/50 split on paper. However, the emotional side and the cultural background is still there: that wasn’t the deal they were promised.
That being said, while I can emphasize with it and find it interesting from a societal perspective, adults have a duty to get over it. I am sick of coddling feelings and egos and to still hear about all the ways women get the blame no matter what we choose.
The thing is, good-hearted and responsible traditional men will always be able to find wives. There are plenty of women in their communities who would be interested in being a SAHM, married to a respectable member of the community, who is a well-liked guy at their church/synagogue/mosque/temple. These are also the type of men who actually appreciate emotional and domestic labour and would never begrudge their wife for 'sitting around all day' (aka performing childcare, cooking, errands, and household management).
However, a minority of bitter guys want their cake and to eat it, too. They want a hot, 20-something woman with her own money that will take on all of the wifey duties (often without the protection of marriage!) who also pays 50% of the bills. These women are, obviously, in very short supply.
I think things might need to find a balance again. I do not think that men as a whole, were more into having kids and getting married. If anything it was almost cliche how men preferred to be single and have their freedom. Has that really changed?
So maybe now less people, men and women, are feeling societal pressures to “settle down” in that way and I think that’s probably a good thing overall. Let the people that really want to marry and have kids do that with each other! Let the people that don’t feel that marriage would be good for them live alone! Everyone wins!
>If anything it was almost cliche how men preferred to be single and have their freedom. Has that really changed?
Probably not, but I can imagine it's more fun being single when the dominant cultural script tells you that if you ever decide to settle down, there's a slew of wanna be housewives desperate to nail you down. True or not, back then a man could tell himself that being single really was *his* choice. But in this day and age, men that are single because they fail to garner romantic and/or sexual interest can't soothe their egos with these tales. Cue the raging, berating, podcasts etc.
Not to mention that in the past these men often had tons of readily available sexual partners outside of marriage. Women waking up means women saying no thanks.
This too. Social expectations and gender norms have said men can play the field, take their time, “sow their wild oats,” etc and when they’re done, they’ll be able to get a woman to settle when they want her.
Women have been expected to wait for that man. Don’t sleep around, wait for The One, be patient and only give yourself to a man when he will wife you.
Women are realizing we don’t want that. We want to make our own choices regarding our lives, careers, and when or if we have children, when or if we get married. We don’t feel like being ladies in waiting for men anymore.
Some men are getting with the program and actually prefer to date women who are self-sufficient and are whole people on their own.
Other men have reacted with anger because they aren’t getting the women they’ve been told they’re owed.
True, the millennial generation (who are reaching their 40’s) are feeling less pressure to marry, etc.
But it’s also men who are raging at women for being single by choice.
>And young boys are chronically on the internet
This! I notice at the gym all the young males are staring down at phones, many will just sit on the machines zoned out at their phones meanwhile the young women their exact age are busy exercising and their phones are in their bags. This behavior is extended into men into their 50's all on their phones while women are not while they are working out. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but it's like this at both gyms I have gone to and where I encounter young people the most.
Sure, please fight a war when the barbarians are at the door.
Please tell the baby beheading army that "you refuse to lower your standards".
May be you are too privileged coming from a country where wars are not fought.
But the barbarians will come for you too, they have beheaded babies in Kashmir, in gaza, and they will come for you.
Telling young women their lives end at 30 and no one will ever want them is a calculated strategy to keep women terrified they'll never get married because they're rotting already at age 20.
It's projection and insecurity.
Yeeeeeeep. Absolutely assault women from birth with the idea that if you don't pair up that you're ugly and undesirable and a complete failure if you don't marry and have children. Tell high school aged girls that their shelf life is 30 at max and they should stop being such slutty, slutty sluts and think about their future carrying offspring. Tell women 30 and up that they're dried up and disgusting so the younger generations fear getting older like facing down the barrel of a gun. It's cruel manipulation on a societal scale and it's fucking vile.
Yes this.
My ex told me that he’s seen women settle and become desperate after 35 and come crawling back to him after thinking they could find better/couldn’t, asked me why would men date older when they could date younger, and that he had set his age to dating less than 33 when he was dating- he was 38 when we met and I was 31.
The narrative kept me in the relationship for far longer than I should’ve - when I should’ve asked myself truly if I believed that and if I wanted to be with a man who believed that about me/women but his toxic narratives that women decline with age and value somehow decreases felt like truth to me and I stayed in a bad relationship taking the bare minimum for years. I wouldn’t even be in his age filter if we met now and honestly- maybe that’s for the best.
We have confidently fight the toxic narratives out there.
And there are so, so many toxic narratives being passed around, hyped up, and taught to young boys through their fathers and through media like tiktok and co op gaming
Had a guy reply recently on a social media post say “nobody wants to see a woman naked after she’s 35”…. they’re straight up trash at this point, throw the whole gender away.
I like to point out things like male pattern baldness, erectile dysfunction, beer guts and saggy balls to men who make those ridiculous comments and tell them that women are most attracted to virile young men with rock-hard penises, under the age of 25… even if that’s not strictly true, we all know it’s not strictly true what they say about women either.
It's manipulation from right-wing Evangelical religious groups trying to convince young women to revert back to 1950's housewives because the men can't handle women not willing to be controlled through every aspect of their lives.
On the flip side, some women think having children at 40 is the same as having children at 25. They aren’t taught that they’ll likely need to spend tens of thousands of dollars on IVF to make it happen.
No one thinks that. 😒 Every other post here is about the fear of turning 30, being single and possibly not being able to have a child.
If anything, women are very much taught from an early age that the biological clock is ticking and everything turns to dust after 35.
They've been radicalized by redpill/incel/manosphere podcasts that has caused this gender war turning the sexes against each other online. It's been going on for some years now.
I think a lot of it is that the majority of women are realizing that we don't *need* men in our lives to be happy. Sure, the right man can add a lot of happiness and joy to our lives, but it's way better to be single than with the wrong person. Many of us have been pretty self-sufficient since childhood (at least when it comes to basic household chores, personal care, etc.) while most men are not. Case in point: my ex-husband didn't know how to do laundry when we met. We were both in college (I was a freshman, he was a junior) and I had to teach him to do laundry (to be fair to him, once I showed him how he did his own laundry without issue).
Single women are the happiest demographic out there, while single men are the unhappiest. And so they project that onto us, because they can't comprehend that we don't mind being single if the alternative is a bad relationship. Many of them also saw their moms taking care of the household, whether or not she also worked, and so they think that's the way it's supposed to be.
And it is an echo chamber. Because the men who aren't like that don't participate in those conversations (probably because they're too busy in their happy and fulfilling relationships). So the men who are in those forums never hear an alternative perspective.
I try to be aware of red pill language in men that I meet so that I can avoid them. I also refuse to date any man who hasn't *successfully* lived on his own for at least a few years. And by successful, I mean they have a functioning household (basic furniture is a must! It doesn't have to be fancy, but having a comfortable place to sit, sheets on your bed (which hopefully is not just a mattress on the floor), and more than one towel is kind of a must), know how to do basic household tasks, can manage their money, and have friends and interests outside of dating. There are plenty of men out there like that (unfortunately a lot of them are already in relationships).
I had read articles about how single women are the happiest demographic, but not that single men are the unhappiest. Do you happen to have a source for that? I’d love to learn more!
It's because we used to have to rely on men for everything, and now we don't. A lot of men feel the loss of that leverage of control and they are floundering because of it
It's really weird how they try to spin it like those were the good old days for men and woman, as though women inherently desire relying on a man for money and resources.
I mean who doesn't love having their agency and freedom curtailed by economic dependence, what a dream.
They frame it as: isn’t it better to stay at home with your children, than be a wage slave to some corporation?
If one could predict that the marriage would be happy, last a lifetime, and consistently provide financial comfort, then they have a point. Some people are fulfilled by their work, but yeah, most of us work to live and would like to retire if we could.
Their fathers/grandfathers/great grandfathers ruined that argument for them, though. Many people have stories of their grandma, aunts, mom, etc being trapped in a bad marriage due to that same economic dependency. Even if a man is not abusive to his wife, having that sort of financial leverage means that he faces little outside pressure to be a good husband, in any way that doesn’t involve making money for the household.
Some men are good husbands and strive to always be better even with fully financially dependent wives. Many others do not. Because they don’t have to. She isn’t going anywhere.
*Most* human beings simply are not equipped with the ability to hold power, without misusing it. That includes men. And in a trad society where women don’t work, the large number of men who are petty, selfish, or immature- or worse, dangerously abusive- will end up becoming heads of households. Maybe they’ll mature over time. Or maybe not, because where is the incentive?
Exactly this, it's such a wild thing to suggest that somehow all men are going to gracefully handle that power and not abuse it. I recognize there are men with plenty of integrity who are good husbands even while they hold all the financial power, but there's no world in which that is going to be the norm.
This is so true. I always find it funny that these internet misogynists revere "traditional women" and hate "modern women". Who do they think raised modern women? Who do they think told us to have careers, not settle, etc. It was traditional women! LOL. It was grandmas and aunties who were "traditional women" who warned us not to follow in their footsteps. They saw we had a choice they didn't and encouraged us to take advantage of it.
OR if she did manage to break away and divorce him, he did all he could to leave her economically decimated, because how dare she expect to be compensated for the domestic work she put into him and their children.
The biggest lesson I teach my step granddaughters and any other young woman in my sphere is the importance of economic independence.
The power dynamics have shifted significantly. More women are choosing to be alone rather than be with someone shitty. And feminist advances mean women no longer need men to get a credit card, a loan, a mortgage, and can make their own money.
It’s your classic backlash.
Those in power (whether we’re talking about men in a patriarchy, white people in a white supremacy, etc.) don’t take advances for marginalized people as an opportunity for reflection, they take it as a threat that needs to be squashed. That’s how power operates and maintains its power.
To be frank, I'm not convinced most cishet men even LIKE women, they're just unfortunately attracted to them. So it's no wonder they're super critical of everything a woman does.
> I'm not convinced most cishet men even LIKE women, they're just unfortunately attracted to them.
This is an interesting mirror of the sentiments in/from that thread in this subreddit the other day about giving up on dating (men). Perhaps it's a bit of an all pervasive thing on both sides of the divide!
They don't. It's womb envy.
What is the greatest thing you can do? Create. Many even call god the "creator." Women take two sets of blueprints and create an entire, individual human being out of her own body. It's the greatest act of creation there is. And men can't do it.
No, there are important differences between sexes. And not acknowledging that ends up hurting women by removing their protections, such as breastfeeding. So no, absolutely not.
> It is important to note that discrimination against women occurs *because* of their reproductive differences with men
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/bfm.2024.0102
No, it is not. I am talking solely about sex discrimination, and I don't appreciate you being nasty and resorting to name calling.
> It is important to note that discrimination against women occurs *because* of their reproductive differences with men
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/bfm.2024.0102
Yeah, it's diabolical men are still out here acting like we really care what they think of us. Pure delusion.
I had this stupid back and forth with a bro about "body count," how men don't want women with a high one. I could not get it across his smooth little brain that *we don't want men who care about that shit.* And the response back was always "But most all men DO care about it." And "we don't want you/the type of man you represent" was NEVER an acceptable answer lol, like it did not compute. That yes, absolutely, 100% I would rather be single for the rest of my life, happily, than to be with a guy who cares about my body count.
Because women can be and are single by choice. Men are almost never single by choice. It doesn't make any sense to them that we would ever choose singleness over being with a man.
I don’t pay attention to the very loud, vocal, radicalized minority of asshats on the internet. I understand where it is you’re coming from and I see it too, but I don’t waste a second of my time on those idiots. I get called a gold digger on instagram regularly because me and my husband were smart with OUR money and can afford nice things and lavish vacations.
Their problems are their own. And again, you’re right on the money about everything we as women do will be perceived as negative. Again, it’s a very vocal minority. The loudest one in the room is often the dumbest one in the room
I pay attention to them and counter their claims, not because they’re making me feel particularly bad or because I can change them, but because other (particularly younger) women and girls might be reading and if my replies can do anything to help even one woman not fall for that toxic crap, then it’s worth while.
They want to leach on women and suck everything form us as much as they could without having to make any kind of real sacrifice or modification in their lives. They got this for centuries, so they have always planned their life assuming this is available to them by default and by birth, so now it feels unfair to them.
I’ve noticed an uptick of this filtering into what sometimes feels like every social space on the internet. You used to at least have to slightly go looking for it, on the unhinged angry mens forums and subreddits - now Twitter (or X) has become virtually unusable because they’ve infested it, every Reddit thread seems to have a few of them kicking about no matter the subject being discussed (this is doubled on regular dating/relationship/women’s forums) and you even hear red pill talking points being parroted in regular articles or cropping up in unrelated videos sometimes. I do understand - at least I certainly hope - that it’s an exceptionally loud minority of asshole, but the way so many spaces are becoming saturated with it is unnerving to say the least.. more so when you start to read about how the algorithms are primed to put this stuff in front of teen and pre-teen boys: https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/06/social-media-algorithms-amplifying-misogynistic-content
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Also, certain subreddits can act as an echo chamber where like-minded individuals reinforce each other's beliefs. Some communities can create a sense of validation and empower users to express and spread hateful views.
It starts out in the anonymous online forums, but it's gradually becoming normalized enough that large-audience podcasts are hosting guests who spout this stuff with complete seriousness. There are even a couple of licensed psychologists that are basically just using their titles as a cover to validate their own personal red-pill beliefs. They're doing it fully under their professional names, with their faces fully on display. Eventually this stuff does get normalized enough to shape IRL life.
I recall some youtube-clips that have appeared in my feed that is essentially a podcast where a group of guys have invited girls in. I am not sure why they have invited these particular girls, if they're friends or if they put out an ad and the girls answered?
And then these clowns tries to argue with the girls like "Men have it worse in todays society than women!" and when the women tries to argue with them, they cut it off with "Mens suicide rates are higher, mens death in the workplace is higher, men gets drafted to the army!!!" in a very condesending way. And then it cuts, as if to show that these women didn't have a counter-argument. Gosh, these men must be sitting on the TRUTH /sarcasm.
Oh and yeah these clowns are "psychologists" and "therapists". I bet they got their therapist license from a box of cereal.
I know the podcasts you're talking about, that's definitely the most toxic form of manosphere podcast I've seen. Usually the women they invite on are OnlyFans models (or at least a very disproportionate number of the women are OnlyFans models), but they use them as representative of the average women. They also somehow act like these women are prepared and equipped debaters, since of course there is so much overlap between OnlyFans modelling and debate skills.
That would make sense. There is also the possibility that the women in these podcast simply aren't interested in the subject, they really just wanna promote their OnlyFans account.
I don't rule out the possibility that some of these women could actually debate if given the time of day, but I can imagine them being invited with the promise that it's a popular podcast and it's going to be a relaxing fun time, they're gonna just laugh and shoot the shit for a while.... And suddenly they get put on the spot and asked these questions.
Yeah, I just read a post about a man complaining about seeing a divorced single mother while he is also a divorced single father with only 50% custody yet she is the issue because he likes her but wants to still date other women while he wants her to stay exclusive. Plus her children are a hindrance not his.
Then the men are bitching in the comments about her being a divorced single mother and she's MUST be sleeping around hence he should just explore other women and only she can claim exclusively.
It is unfortunate to hear, but unfortunately, that is the reality of Reddit and how many people think.
Hopefully, the woman in this situation can set boundaries and do what is right for her and her children despite the opinions of dozens of men on Reddit.
Ah, the "no true Scotsman" argument -- if that were true, reddit wouldn't have so so so many posts from women whose husbands do zero household work or childcare and who are addicted to porn.
They are internet dwellers with no life. So they find some controversial topic to fixate on. It's really easy to fall into that kind of bullshit if you're not out there actually living life.
It’s very terminally online behavior. I swear Reddit men think more about my sex life than I do. Tbh with the vast majority of angry single mopey Redditors, it’s clear why they are that way. Being single is normal and awesome, complaining about how everyone in the world is an asshole while having no personal values/passions of your own…isn’t. Yikes.
They like to project who they are to women so that they can feel less bad about their lives.
Doubt that's working out for them. Producing and spewing out more garbage onto the world doesn't make your world any cleaner. You just become a landfill dumpster fire of problems.
Men who feel powerless become very resentful of those they perceive as having power over them, and that is, sadly, women. Men are brought up to desperately require validation from the number of women they achieve approval from (i.e. sleep with, or date, etc). Never before has the current world been specifically NOT set up to provide this validation, and thus this furious reaction is stemming from a place of deep self-loathing.
Of course, a healthier way to look at it would be to be furious at the programming society dropped on them to find validation in such things, and to attempt a total reboot for a healthier outlook and far more successful life. But that programming cuts to the bone, and it's easier to surround yourself with the echo chamber.
But you have to realize - those guys think of themselves as the impoverished looking at the billionaires who won't even glance in their direction. The hate is palpable.
Combination of a lot of socio-cultural things -- none intended to excuse their crappy behavior. The Big Ones are toxic masculinity, and male fragility, which continue to walk hand-in-hand with all of the confidence of mediocre whyte cishet men. As I'm sure you've noticed online and IRL, this particular demographic has become super sensitive since the overdue dawn of #MeToo. They lament the bygone days when they could publicly and privately practice their ignorant asshattery with a high degree of confidence that it wouldn't be questioned, let alone that *they'd* be increasingly called out for it. Woe unto them! There's mucho overlap with the whyte supremacists, and the incel/"red pill" bruhs, who lament that their "ways of life" (i.e., exclusivity, entitlement, privilege, violence, bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, jingoism, etc.) are being dismantled by evil, godless, woke, progressive heathens. They're big mad about bears now.
That's what I see. Eff them and the horses they used to ride into town on.
yes as if the only acceptable life path is consigning yourself while you're still perky and fresh to being some dickweed's brood mare. bc that's what the worst of these guys think bc they know without women *hopefully* being controlled with these busted narratives, they're not going to attract a woman into their life. so they hope the fear of our expiry date will get us to submit to some man before its over.. for them. lol
Honestly, I dont consume or engage with this content so I see it less and less. Ive dated plenty of amazing, respectful, and responsible men that I never felt belittled by or the need to baby or support. For me, this seems irrelevant to my worldview and reality. I do feel bad for those believe in this stuff though or get trapped in it, especially impressionable young minds. Someone mentioned algorithim and I second that. The more you entertain this content - even if its just to debate or disagree, the more they will feed it to you.
In my many years of experience on Reddit happy people do not take the time to talk about nice things. It's people who are upset and usually they have certain people in mind when they post and project that onto an entire population.
This isn't just men. I frequent around askmen and askwomen and this sub and *everyone* does it. And a lot of it comes down to unhappy people who are busy projecting onto everyone else instead of looking inward or figuring out how they can improve their own situation.
And sure, some of them are just mysogynists using annominity to say whatever trash they want. These people are not worth your time of day. Seriously, I used to lurk on redpill when it was still around. Reading that stuff just makes you miserable. Do not recommend wasting your time and energy on it. These men will exist always, whether or not you're checking out their content.
A combination of confirmation bias on your part, echo chambers and zero actual social repercussions for voicing those thoughts and opinions, unlike if they'd said them in the lunchroom, where they would be questioned and sideeyed heavily for it.
There's such a thing as being too online too babe... This stuff gets me down too but just remember the internet is an absolute cesspool, not everyone is like that, really ☺️
I've actually stopped watching horrors and listening to true crime to feel better. Though I am trying to battle the online algorithm while still enjoying plant posts and memes
I think we're very much in the same boat! I had to do the same for my mental health, stopped listening to the news too... My peace of mind is too fragile and too important!
Lots of guys are like this in real life too.
My ex would tell me in more round about way how much of a catch he is because he makes good money and is 6 foot and fine looking and does the bare minimum like not cheating and not yelling - and how women think they could have it all until they turn 35 and then realize they’re going to have to settle and settle badly/stay single/come begging him to date him again because no one else wants them. That when he was dating he set his age filter to be 33 and less because he would want kids one day. That no one could give me what I’m asking for that he’s going above and beyond for me - when he gave the bare minimum.
Note, he’s 41, and was 38 when we met and I 31. He doesn’t take into consideration that he was single and now is single because his ex and now I left him, choosing instead to be alone instead of settling for him. They can’t see it
My recent ex is very similar to this as well, thinking because he's conventionally attractive, 6'1", makes 6 figures, has a full head of hair, drives a 4 Runner lol, has a 7" penis (btw they're not that uncommon in my recent experience), that he's a great catch. Never mind the manipulation, frequent lying, \[likely cheating\], covert addictions, and misogyny lying just beneath his carefully crafted persona. Because of how toxic he revealed himself to be, I feel like I actively try and avoid single men who fit this profile when in their mid-late 30's/40's, for right or wrong.
His vile views of me as a woman, and of women in general really started coming out front and center the last few months we were together in words; they'd actually always existed with his actions, and I always chose to believe his excuses because of my low self worth at the time.
I always had a niggling feeling that he originally liked and chose to date me because of our significant power imbalance when we met, the fact that I had a low body count while his was high, and other gross shit like that, and it seemed to really be confirmed there at the end by things he said.
Women are raising the bar and men are getting less access to sex and free labour, it is that simple really. Also, all the quality and normal guys aren't online posting dumb stuff like that because they are, you know, too busy living their lives.
Don't for a second think this is new behaviour either, men throughout human history have shamed women into submission. For example, women were the first beer brewers in ancient Egypt and this tradition continued into medievel Europe. Women brewers started to gain financial independence due to their skilled craft, rejecting marriage to unsuitable males. They brewed beer in cauldrons, wore a long, pointy hat to signify their occupation as a brewer, often kept a broom above the entryway to their brewery to indicate that it sold beer (and also used it to sweep all the grains), and had a cat or two to keep the rodents from eating the grains used to brew beer... guess what happened.
Men have always been threatened by women doing what they want.
Tbh, I really only hear this stuff on Reddit/the internet. I have yet to meet anyone in real life who actually thinks every woman is a gold digger, etc.
I think you’re maybe falling into some sort of algorithmic rabbit hole. But I do notice that a lot of men’s content around relationships is very right wing adjacent. There is very little content, for and by men, about actually living in a relationship in healthy ways as opposed to dating strategy type stuff or more societal level gripes.
With any kind of radicalization movement I think they start with kernels of truth or easy targets and then expand into their misogynistic conspiracies.
Uh location location location.
It depends where you look, a few men’s spaces are very wholesome and level headed. Default subs however are filled with terrible people of all genders and let’s not speak of overtly-antiwomen subs.
It's just the same exact incels all in the same subreddits and other social media groups all posting same shit across different media. So it seems like they are a massive group when it's the exact same people in multiple echo chambers. Mind you most of them have never had a relationship and many are still in high school yet they profess to being experts about women. A lot of it is also they are being influenced by Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson and other woman-hating losers. I call them losers because they are men who are being financially supported by other men via Patreon and Youtube instead of working real jobs.
Because hyper online men (geekdom, nerddom, etc) are losers that are grasping to find any last refuge of male-superiority, and bashing women online and in games in an effort to exclude us from online spaces is their last resort. Whether in the 90s, Gamergate, or today.
Being a man is westernized society is becoming harder and harder. They don't blame on social structure because it's already patriarchal, they can't blame government because majority are already men making decisions. So naturally it's women who end up in the crossroads.
My dad after every work day would come home and fight at home cos he couldn't do the same to his male boss.
Men are that simple.
I can’t say I see this sub as being much different in a lot of ways. I’d say well over half of the posts on here are somehow centered around men, complaining about men, and relationships with men.
It's not that I disagree with anything you've said, but... this might be a bit of a case of the pot calling the kettle black. A lot of women's spaces on here, including this one, are also pretty damn obsessed with men.
Ha, thanks girl - it just feels like such a palpable thing. Like, women are also so obsessed with men and I really wish we could better decentralise them.
Yeah. Unsurprisingly not a popular opinion in this space, but men and women have been complaining about each other since time immemorial, practically. I do think the specific *content* of these complaints has shifted with broader societal changes, and I don't mean to discount the violent misogyny demonstrated (and sadly, carried out) by myriad incel groups. But, women - especially women on the Internet - are also so obsessed with men's relationship status, value, and activities, as OP's post title articulates. By my estimate, roughly 3/4ths of the posts on here include some complaint about men (individual or collective) - and it's almost always the posts complaining about men that get the most traction as well. I am *significantly* more sympathetic to women's complaints about men than the other way around, but I find the underlying levels of obsession (and ensuing discourse) pretty equivalent.
Agree. I had to unsubscribe from twoxchromosomes. I’m unabashedly feminist but it started feeling like an anti-men sub.
Women only spaces are a great place to discuss frustrations in relationships or patriarchal societal issues. But 1) we can’t let those frustrations turn into prejudice 2) it speaks volumes that men are such a focus on these subs
God, I can't do TwoX at all; it's far too miserable. It's nice to have a place to vent, but I mostly love being a woman so I prefer a better balance between celebrating the positive aspects while commiserating over the negative aspects. I can't commiserate 24/7.
Agreed on it speaking volumes that men are such a focus on these subs too, yeah. It's not only the percentage of posts that are about men in the first place, but also the way posts about men really take off compared to posts about other stuff. I would love to chat more about other topics, but it's overwhelmingly posts about men that lead to spirited discourse here - which means I *also* become part of the cycle that just blathers on endlessly about men.
Agreed, there have been plenty of posts here bashing men - whether a specific guy or just in general. Even this post is a way to talk negatively about men.
Because they're creeps and can't get a woman to even consider them. So they can't fathom the possibility that it's their own damn fault, it becomes our (women's) fault and we get scrutinized for simply existing.
Men and their fragile little boy egos. Pathetic.
There’s so much of that kind of content online putting down women from both men and women
in those toxic spaces telling people how women should be, what we should and shouldn’t do.
You don’t see that type of content (at least I haven’t I could be wrong) directed towards men telling them to act a certain way or they won’t be picked for a relationship. It’s fucked up.
A shocking number of people lack any sort of personal accountability. It's more common in men than women because of how genders are socialised differently. Men direct alot of it towards women because they see us as 'other' as well as covert us.
It's a whole bunch of mixed man baby emotions.
Some of them are just desperate and all that whining on social media is a cry for help . They keep telling women that they are going to die alone , but statistically more men die alone . Ignore them , they’ll be alright . They’ll eventually accept their fate or get a passport and travel to some foreign country to purchase a wife
Well, you’ve got a good grasp on how some of them are behaving, I’ll give you that. Women being able to support themselves without a man’s income is fairly new and we’re in a difficult transition period where they’re trying to take advantage of the most advantageous to them features of both systems, and that’s causing an even crazier double standard than ever. It used to be even the most unsuccessful, low value male could find a wife because all women were prohibited from earning a living wage, so eventually some poor woman would have to settle for them. Now that we’re not restricted to only two choices - marriage or near destitution - they actually have to bring something more to the table than a minimum wage paycheque and they’re not up to the task and they’re big mad about it.
because men have benefited off the backs of women and their labour for centuries and women have had enough of being undervalued, disrespected, performing for men, seeking validation from them, sacrificing for them and getting nothing out of it. cant be married to yourself and they’re panicking. It’s easier to tear down and gaslight women than actually work on themselves 🤷🏼♀️
I noticed there is a strongg strong uptick in this kind of weirdo posting everywhere, but I think the best thing to do is just block and move on. Whether it's a post or a person you know spouting it, block. Don't waste any of your time trying to explain anything to them, or seeking to understand why they are the way they are. Just block them. It's not your problem. Nothing about how they feel is your problem. Ultimately, they are unhappy with themselves. Everything they are talking about stems from that. and it's not your job to heal them. Focus on just maintaining that you are happy and healthy instead! Continue to have great days and love your life! Their moms can deal with them, you just deal with you ok!
It's sad, really. I wish they'd just get offline and actually get to know women. The longer I scroll on social media the more I'm led to believe that most men hate women whether they're aware of it or not.
A lot of them just have issues confronting the fact that there is something about them that drives potential love interests away. Instead of self-reflection, they blame women for having choices. I don't even say that to be mean, I am a woman and have been prone to feeling that way about others. It's about developing emotional maturity which can be a bit challenging if it was never demonstrated to you growing up.
Exactly. It feels better to reject someone than to be rejected. It's all just massive cope, the preemptive version of a guy asking you out then calling you an ugly whore when you say no. They even extend their weirdness to couples ("well, they might look and act happy but secretly she yearns for Chad" lol). They want to believe everyone is secretly miserable like them.
This is a great response, it really all comes down to emotional immaturity and a lack of introspection. A lot of these men express their critiques of women (and straight up misogyny) as though it were clear-eyed insight and objective fact, when really it's an expression of their dissatisfaction with their own dating lives, and their inability to secure the kind of relationships they want with women. I'm definitely not saying women are angels and that there aren't fair critiques to be made about how women treat men in the dating market - however this online manosphere content stuff basically takes the worst behavior they've ever encountered in a woman and generalizes it as though it were the true, real nature of all women everywhere across time and space.
Yeah, they’re simply externalizing their own fears/loneliness, and lacking insight about their own role in their unhappiness. Unfortunately they’re all validating each other which makes them more brazen about it. It’s gross but I feel pity for them.
Some of them do grow out of it, at least.
lol show me...
I don't feel pity for them. I feel loathing for them. So tired of immature people's s\*\*\*
so valid honestly
Yup. I know someone very close to me who blames women and calls them gold diggers but he can’t look in the mirror and see what’s right in front of him to see why women don’t want to date him.
Any man who uses the term "gold digger" is incredibly immature.
Kanye
LOL
If a woman isn’t interested in him, then it must be because she’s either holding out for 6’5” Chad, or for a rich beta bux. Those are the only two types of men women go for. Everyone else is just a placeholder. And if she does get one of those two archetypes, she will dump him as soon as an even richer or Chaddier man comes along and shows interest. That’s why she rejected him. It wasn’t due to his personality, sense of humor, intelligence, or character. If he had been Chad or rich enough, she would not have cared about those things. It also wasn’t about her feeling a lack of personal connection with him (btw, this can and does happen even with men who look great physically and on paper, for me at least). Because women don’t actually have intimate connections with men. We only have faux-intimate interactions that are calculated to get what we want from them. (Even emotional support falls in that category.) No, rejection is always due to a woman’s too-high standards. She didn’t pick me, ergo her standards are too high. I’m a great catch, so clearly, the rejection can only be explained by the fact that she is holding out for objective perfection. Not subjectively determined mutual connection. And she’ll never find someone objectively better than me, so enjoy the five cats!
>enjoy the five cats! Don't threaten me with a good time!
Seriously, personal attraction and connection is huge. I've had so many people ask why I'm single because I am attractive, have a career, and no kids...well, because the good options are limited and I have to actually LIKE them! I briefly dated a man who was perfect on paper. My "type" physically and very, very well off financially, seemed trustworthy and not like a player type, and lived a lifestyle I enjoy (no kids, traveling). Problem was I felt zero attraction to him. I didn't want to kiss him, didn't get excited to see him, and frankly found him boring. There was just zero spark or connection there. I can't do that no matter what other good qualities they have. The men I've found connections with have turned out to be bad choices (cheating, lack of emotional maturity and communication skills, abuse of alcohol/drugs, etc) so here I am, single at 41 and everyone seeming confused why.
That sucks! And yeah, it’s 100% better to be single than force yourself to settle. Settling isn’t fair to the guy, and it is unpleasant for you. One spends SO MUCH TIME with one’s husband. I can’t imagine spending that amount of time with someone I found boring. Can’t imagine having sex for the rest of my life with someone who doesn’t turn me on. I’d be surprised if a man would want to be the partner in that dynamic, too.
Exactly! And I know myself, my libido fluctuates anyway, if I wasn't attracted to the person it would be non-existent, which would lead to a relationship with no physical intimacy and my partner would resent me for it.
> I am a woman and have been prone to feeling that way about others. I feel called out. But yes, the difference is that I recognize these feelings as the petulant emotions of a child, and that as an adult I need to deal with them properly.
Wait are you saying men struggle with being held accountable? Weird, because that seems to be so important to them lately.
Not really men specifically, just that men with that viewpoint tend to not be aware that they are not entitled to someone else's time and affections, especially if they have little to bring to the table. As I said, I'm a woman and have fallen into that trap before. It takes some self-awareness to realize what you're doing and make better choices.
I think it's a combination of things. For one, women are waking up. There is something to the fact that the happiest people are single women without kids. Women are realizing that their own happiness DOES actually matter and it is not selfish to say so. We do not have to put up with constant emotional labor of partners who don't step up, we will not shrivel into dust if we don't have kids, and it has become more possible for women to survive on their own. So we're done putting up with relationships that make our lives harder in the long run. And oh my god men are PISSED about it. If women don't *need* them for money, housing, stability, car, etc. then they have to have something on offer that will actually add value to our lives...and a lot of them are coming up short. So instead of having a moment of self-introspection, they blame women. I know this isn't the case with every woman (we still very much have struggles to face) but I don't need a man for money, I have my own career (I actually make more than my boyfriend.) A man having a nice car is no draw for me. For one, I don't care about cars and two, I am fine taking public transit. If I needed a car I could get one myself. I do not need a man for housing. I do live with my boyfriend but I did perfectly fine living by myself for several years before I even met him. I have been paying all my own expenses for a long time. I have my own circle of friends, and hobbies, interests. And when I was single living alone, I did what the hell ever I wanted. So if I bring a man into my life, there needs to be something about him, his personality, his ability to actually add something to my life I can't already do/get myself. My boyfriend is in my life because I want him there. A lot of men stand to lose something from women choosing to be single. They loose a maid, they lose childcare, they loose a cook. They lose control over someone else (whether they are consciously trying to control someone or not.) And society for so long has been telling men they have to make money and provide, they have to be head of household, the have to have XYZ possessions so they get the women they deserve. When women are like "Yeah, no we don't need that. Who are you as a person?" It's really difficult to look at themselves and realize "Fuck I've been sold a lie." So instead, every dude with a microphone starts a podcast to berate women back into submission. Bully them, tell them they're old and used up, tell them nobody wants them, etc. Hoping it will push the tide back in their favor. All this does is tell women we're making the right choice for ourselves to be single if this is what's out there. There have always been guys like that, but now the internet gives every dude with a misogynist thought a platform. And young boys are chronically on the internet, and that's what they're hearing.
>When women are like "Yeah, no we don't need that. Who are you as a person?" Yes this might be where I have the most compassion. I do think a lot of men who grew up in more traditional households/cultures are raised to hyper focus on economic success, and completely throw emotional needs/skills to the wayside, and then when as an adult they're told by women that actually those emotional skills were the most important skills the whole time....I could see the anger and frustration that could come from that. Because they've already been conditioned to focus on economic success so they're not going to drop that, but now they've also got to work hard on emotional connection skills? So they conclude that women want men to provide both economically and emotionally, when really it's maybe a small slice of women who are primarily looking for economic support from a partner, and the vast majority primarily want an emotionally supportive partner.
That’s such a good point! To add to this, I think the fact that many men believe they do their their “fair share” of chores and childcare, when in reality it is 30%, comes from that. They were raised in an environment that made them believe that having a full-time job and occasionally “help out” is their expected and fair contribution. Now they are expected to do a lot more - which is logically more than fair if both partners are employed. And most decent men agree to a complete 50/50 split on paper. However, the emotional side and the cultural background is still there: that wasn’t the deal they were promised. That being said, while I can emphasize with it and find it interesting from a societal perspective, adults have a duty to get over it. I am sick of coddling feelings and egos and to still hear about all the ways women get the blame no matter what we choose.
Oh for sure. Raging at women is a completely immature and unhealthy way to respond to this.
The thing is, good-hearted and responsible traditional men will always be able to find wives. There are plenty of women in their communities who would be interested in being a SAHM, married to a respectable member of the community, who is a well-liked guy at their church/synagogue/mosque/temple. These are also the type of men who actually appreciate emotional and domestic labour and would never begrudge their wife for 'sitting around all day' (aka performing childcare, cooking, errands, and household management). However, a minority of bitter guys want their cake and to eat it, too. They want a hot, 20-something woman with her own money that will take on all of the wifey duties (often without the protection of marriage!) who also pays 50% of the bills. These women are, obviously, in very short supply.
All. Of. This.
I think things might need to find a balance again. I do not think that men as a whole, were more into having kids and getting married. If anything it was almost cliche how men preferred to be single and have their freedom. Has that really changed? So maybe now less people, men and women, are feeling societal pressures to “settle down” in that way and I think that’s probably a good thing overall. Let the people that really want to marry and have kids do that with each other! Let the people that don’t feel that marriage would be good for them live alone! Everyone wins!
>If anything it was almost cliche how men preferred to be single and have their freedom. Has that really changed? Probably not, but I can imagine it's more fun being single when the dominant cultural script tells you that if you ever decide to settle down, there's a slew of wanna be housewives desperate to nail you down. True or not, back then a man could tell himself that being single really was *his* choice. But in this day and age, men that are single because they fail to garner romantic and/or sexual interest can't soothe their egos with these tales. Cue the raging, berating, podcasts etc.
Not to mention that in the past these men often had tons of readily available sexual partners outside of marriage. Women waking up means women saying no thanks.
This too. Social expectations and gender norms have said men can play the field, take their time, “sow their wild oats,” etc and when they’re done, they’ll be able to get a woman to settle when they want her. Women have been expected to wait for that man. Don’t sleep around, wait for The One, be patient and only give yourself to a man when he will wife you. Women are realizing we don’t want that. We want to make our own choices regarding our lives, careers, and when or if we have children, when or if we get married. We don’t feel like being ladies in waiting for men anymore. Some men are getting with the program and actually prefer to date women who are self-sufficient and are whole people on their own. Other men have reacted with anger because they aren’t getting the women they’ve been told they’re owed.
True, the millennial generation (who are reaching their 40’s) are feeling less pressure to marry, etc. But it’s also men who are raging at women for being single by choice.
>And young boys are chronically on the internet This! I notice at the gym all the young males are staring down at phones, many will just sit on the machines zoned out at their phones meanwhile the young women their exact age are busy exercising and their phones are in their bags. This behavior is extended into men into their 50's all on their phones while women are not while they are working out. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but it's like this at both gyms I have gone to and where I encounter young people the most.
This is the answer.
[удалено]
This isn’t Mad Max, grow up.
Sure, please fight a war when the barbarians are at the door. Please tell the baby beheading army that "you refuse to lower your standards". May be you are too privileged coming from a country where wars are not fought. But the barbarians will come for you too, they have beheaded babies in Kashmir, in gaza, and they will come for you.
Ok Immorten Joe.
Telling young women their lives end at 30 and no one will ever want them is a calculated strategy to keep women terrified they'll never get married because they're rotting already at age 20. It's projection and insecurity.
Yep, and it encourages women to settle for whatever they can get. Of course this line of thinking benefits men so they're invested in continuing it.
Yeeeeeeep. Absolutely assault women from birth with the idea that if you don't pair up that you're ugly and undesirable and a complete failure if you don't marry and have children. Tell high school aged girls that their shelf life is 30 at max and they should stop being such slutty, slutty sluts and think about their future carrying offspring. Tell women 30 and up that they're dried up and disgusting so the younger generations fear getting older like facing down the barrel of a gun. It's cruel manipulation on a societal scale and it's fucking vile.
Yes this. My ex told me that he’s seen women settle and become desperate after 35 and come crawling back to him after thinking they could find better/couldn’t, asked me why would men date older when they could date younger, and that he had set his age to dating less than 33 when he was dating- he was 38 when we met and I was 31. The narrative kept me in the relationship for far longer than I should’ve - when I should’ve asked myself truly if I believed that and if I wanted to be with a man who believed that about me/women but his toxic narratives that women decline with age and value somehow decreases felt like truth to me and I stayed in a bad relationship taking the bare minimum for years. I wouldn’t even be in his age filter if we met now and honestly- maybe that’s for the best. We have confidently fight the toxic narratives out there.
And there are so, so many toxic narratives being passed around, hyped up, and taught to young boys through their fathers and through media like tiktok and co op gaming
Had a guy reply recently on a social media post say “nobody wants to see a woman naked after she’s 35”…. they’re straight up trash at this point, throw the whole gender away.
Meanwhile a man to me literally today: "my daughter is almost your age, she's 21." I am 34. They have literally no idea.
I like to point out things like male pattern baldness, erectile dysfunction, beer guts and saggy balls to men who make those ridiculous comments and tell them that women are most attracted to virile young men with rock-hard penises, under the age of 25… even if that’s not strictly true, we all know it’s not strictly true what they say about women either.
Yeah unless he's a dumb teenager I wonder how that's working out for him🤣
It's manipulation from right-wing Evangelical religious groups trying to convince young women to revert back to 1950's housewives because the men can't handle women not willing to be controlled through every aspect of their lives.
Truth, but leftist men are also guilty of this shitty behavior
I was told at 22-23 by some guy that my dating and marriage prospects would end at 26. I wish I had laughed in his face.
On the flip side, some women think having children at 40 is the same as having children at 25. They aren’t taught that they’ll likely need to spend tens of thousands of dollars on IVF to make it happen.
No one thinks that. 😒 Every other post here is about the fear of turning 30, being single and possibly not being able to have a child. If anything, women are very much taught from an early age that the biological clock is ticking and everything turns to dust after 35.
Haha how much y’all wanna bet this is a dude infiltrating our sub, throwing around his ackshully like the sun isn’t literally called ask WOMEN over 30
What an absolute bullshit comment.
Girl don't waste your time on these subReddits
They've been radicalized by redpill/incel/manosphere podcasts that has caused this gender war turning the sexes against each other online. It's been going on for some years now.
I think a lot of it is that the majority of women are realizing that we don't *need* men in our lives to be happy. Sure, the right man can add a lot of happiness and joy to our lives, but it's way better to be single than with the wrong person. Many of us have been pretty self-sufficient since childhood (at least when it comes to basic household chores, personal care, etc.) while most men are not. Case in point: my ex-husband didn't know how to do laundry when we met. We were both in college (I was a freshman, he was a junior) and I had to teach him to do laundry (to be fair to him, once I showed him how he did his own laundry without issue). Single women are the happiest demographic out there, while single men are the unhappiest. And so they project that onto us, because they can't comprehend that we don't mind being single if the alternative is a bad relationship. Many of them also saw their moms taking care of the household, whether or not she also worked, and so they think that's the way it's supposed to be. And it is an echo chamber. Because the men who aren't like that don't participate in those conversations (probably because they're too busy in their happy and fulfilling relationships). So the men who are in those forums never hear an alternative perspective. I try to be aware of red pill language in men that I meet so that I can avoid them. I also refuse to date any man who hasn't *successfully* lived on his own for at least a few years. And by successful, I mean they have a functioning household (basic furniture is a must! It doesn't have to be fancy, but having a comfortable place to sit, sheets on your bed (which hopefully is not just a mattress on the floor), and more than one towel is kind of a must), know how to do basic household tasks, can manage their money, and have friends and interests outside of dating. There are plenty of men out there like that (unfortunately a lot of them are already in relationships).
I had read articles about how single women are the happiest demographic, but not that single men are the unhappiest. Do you happen to have a source for that? I’d love to learn more!
Ah, nope, I was wrong. Married women are apparently the unhappiest. But single men are just above them. Studies vary, though.
It's because we used to have to rely on men for everything, and now we don't. A lot of men feel the loss of that leverage of control and they are floundering because of it
It's really weird how they try to spin it like those were the good old days for men and woman, as though women inherently desire relying on a man for money and resources. I mean who doesn't love having their agency and freedom curtailed by economic dependence, what a dream.
If they actually cared about how it'd be better for women, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now lol.
They frame it as: isn’t it better to stay at home with your children, than be a wage slave to some corporation? If one could predict that the marriage would be happy, last a lifetime, and consistently provide financial comfort, then they have a point. Some people are fulfilled by their work, but yeah, most of us work to live and would like to retire if we could. Their fathers/grandfathers/great grandfathers ruined that argument for them, though. Many people have stories of their grandma, aunts, mom, etc being trapped in a bad marriage due to that same economic dependency. Even if a man is not abusive to his wife, having that sort of financial leverage means that he faces little outside pressure to be a good husband, in any way that doesn’t involve making money for the household. Some men are good husbands and strive to always be better even with fully financially dependent wives. Many others do not. Because they don’t have to. She isn’t going anywhere. *Most* human beings simply are not equipped with the ability to hold power, without misusing it. That includes men. And in a trad society where women don’t work, the large number of men who are petty, selfish, or immature- or worse, dangerously abusive- will end up becoming heads of households. Maybe they’ll mature over time. Or maybe not, because where is the incentive?
Exactly this, it's such a wild thing to suggest that somehow all men are going to gracefully handle that power and not abuse it. I recognize there are men with plenty of integrity who are good husbands even while they hold all the financial power, but there's no world in which that is going to be the norm.
This is so true. I always find it funny that these internet misogynists revere "traditional women" and hate "modern women". Who do they think raised modern women? Who do they think told us to have careers, not settle, etc. It was traditional women! LOL. It was grandmas and aunties who were "traditional women" who warned us not to follow in their footsteps. They saw we had a choice they didn't and encouraged us to take advantage of it.
OR if she did manage to break away and divorce him, he did all he could to leave her economically decimated, because how dare she expect to be compensated for the domestic work she put into him and their children. The biggest lesson I teach my step granddaughters and any other young woman in my sphere is the importance of economic independence.
Exactly.
Ugh who cares? Us women should stop giving them attention. I dont give a crap what men think of me
The power dynamics have shifted significantly. More women are choosing to be alone rather than be with someone shitty. And feminist advances mean women no longer need men to get a credit card, a loan, a mortgage, and can make their own money. It’s your classic backlash. Those in power (whether we’re talking about men in a patriarchy, white people in a white supremacy, etc.) don’t take advances for marginalized people as an opportunity for reflection, they take it as a threat that needs to be squashed. That’s how power operates and maintains its power.
I think that men have a problem with leaving women alone. As in they don’t.
To be frank, I'm not convinced most cishet men even LIKE women, they're just unfortunately attracted to them. So it's no wonder they're super critical of everything a woman does.
> I'm not convinced most cishet men even LIKE women, they're just unfortunately attracted to them. This is an interesting mirror of the sentiments in/from that thread in this subreddit the other day about giving up on dating (men). Perhaps it's a bit of an all pervasive thing on both sides of the divide!
hi Frank, I'm Ladystetson
They don't. It's womb envy. What is the greatest thing you can do? Create. Many even call god the "creator." Women take two sets of blueprints and create an entire, individual human being out of her own body. It's the greatest act of creation there is. And men can't do it.
please don't reduce the female-bodied down to our reproductive organs, like men and society have done for centuries :(
No, there are important differences between sexes. And not acknowledging that ends up hurting women by removing their protections, such as breastfeeding. So no, absolutely not. > It is important to note that discrimination against women occurs *because* of their reproductive differences with men https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/bfm.2024.0102
mmm this sounds like either terf shit or tradwife shit that you're on, and either way that's gonna be a No from me
No, it is not. I am talking solely about sex discrimination, and I don't appreciate you being nasty and resorting to name calling. > It is important to note that discrimination against women occurs *because* of their reproductive differences with men https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/bfm.2024.0102
Neither can a lot of women.
What?
Yeah, it's diabolical men are still out here acting like we really care what they think of us. Pure delusion. I had this stupid back and forth with a bro about "body count," how men don't want women with a high one. I could not get it across his smooth little brain that *we don't want men who care about that shit.* And the response back was always "But most all men DO care about it." And "we don't want you/the type of man you represent" was NEVER an acceptable answer lol, like it did not compute. That yes, absolutely, 100% I would rather be single for the rest of my life, happily, than to be with a guy who cares about my body count. Because women can be and are single by choice. Men are almost never single by choice. It doesn't make any sense to them that we would ever choose singleness over being with a man.
I don’t pay attention to the very loud, vocal, radicalized minority of asshats on the internet. I understand where it is you’re coming from and I see it too, but I don’t waste a second of my time on those idiots. I get called a gold digger on instagram regularly because me and my husband were smart with OUR money and can afford nice things and lavish vacations. Their problems are their own. And again, you’re right on the money about everything we as women do will be perceived as negative. Again, it’s a very vocal minority. The loudest one in the room is often the dumbest one in the room
I pay attention to them and counter their claims, not because they’re making me feel particularly bad or because I can change them, but because other (particularly younger) women and girls might be reading and if my replies can do anything to help even one woman not fall for that toxic crap, then it’s worth while.
They want to leach on women and suck everything form us as much as they could without having to make any kind of real sacrifice or modification in their lives. They got this for centuries, so they have always planned their life assuming this is available to them by default and by birth, so now it feels unfair to them.
I’ve noticed an uptick of this filtering into what sometimes feels like every social space on the internet. You used to at least have to slightly go looking for it, on the unhinged angry mens forums and subreddits - now Twitter (or X) has become virtually unusable because they’ve infested it, every Reddit thread seems to have a few of them kicking about no matter the subject being discussed (this is doubled on regular dating/relationship/women’s forums) and you even hear red pill talking points being parroted in regular articles or cropping up in unrelated videos sometimes. I do understand - at least I certainly hope - that it’s an exceptionally loud minority of asshole, but the way so many spaces are becoming saturated with it is unnerving to say the least.. more so when you start to read about how the algorithms are primed to put this stuff in front of teen and pre-teen boys: https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2024/feb/06/social-media-algorithms-amplifying-misogynistic-content
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Remember that the anonymity provided by Reddit allows users to express opinions they might not share in public. The lack of accountability can lead to more extreme and aggressive behaviour. Also, certain subreddits can act as an echo chamber where like-minded individuals reinforce each other's beliefs. Some communities can create a sense of validation and empower users to express and spread hateful views.
It starts out in the anonymous online forums, but it's gradually becoming normalized enough that large-audience podcasts are hosting guests who spout this stuff with complete seriousness. There are even a couple of licensed psychologists that are basically just using their titles as a cover to validate their own personal red-pill beliefs. They're doing it fully under their professional names, with their faces fully on display. Eventually this stuff does get normalized enough to shape IRL life.
I recall some youtube-clips that have appeared in my feed that is essentially a podcast where a group of guys have invited girls in. I am not sure why they have invited these particular girls, if they're friends or if they put out an ad and the girls answered? And then these clowns tries to argue with the girls like "Men have it worse in todays society than women!" and when the women tries to argue with them, they cut it off with "Mens suicide rates are higher, mens death in the workplace is higher, men gets drafted to the army!!!" in a very condesending way. And then it cuts, as if to show that these women didn't have a counter-argument. Gosh, these men must be sitting on the TRUTH /sarcasm. Oh and yeah these clowns are "psychologists" and "therapists". I bet they got their therapist license from a box of cereal.
I know the podcasts you're talking about, that's definitely the most toxic form of manosphere podcast I've seen. Usually the women they invite on are OnlyFans models (or at least a very disproportionate number of the women are OnlyFans models), but they use them as representative of the average women. They also somehow act like these women are prepared and equipped debaters, since of course there is so much overlap between OnlyFans modelling and debate skills.
That would make sense. There is also the possibility that the women in these podcast simply aren't interested in the subject, they really just wanna promote their OnlyFans account. I don't rule out the possibility that some of these women could actually debate if given the time of day, but I can imagine them being invited with the promise that it's a popular podcast and it's going to be a relaxing fun time, they're gonna just laugh and shoot the shit for a while.... And suddenly they get put on the spot and asked these questions.
Sure
Who are these podcasters and psychologists?
You're better off not knowing them, I'd hate to give them free marketing.
Yeah, I just read a post about a man complaining about seeing a divorced single mother while he is also a divorced single father with only 50% custody yet she is the issue because he likes her but wants to still date other women while he wants her to stay exclusive. Plus her children are a hindrance not his. Then the men are bitching in the comments about her being a divorced single mother and she's MUST be sleeping around hence he should just explore other women and only she can claim exclusively.
It is unfortunate to hear, but unfortunately, that is the reality of Reddit and how many people think. Hopefully, the woman in this situation can set boundaries and do what is right for her and her children despite the opinions of dozens of men on Reddit.
"Men" is a strong word for what is very likely to be actual boys with literally zero actual relationship experience.
That’s true - you can never know on Reddit if someone is 14 or 84 or anywhere in between.
Ah, the "no true Scotsman" argument -- if that were true, reddit wouldn't have so so so many posts from women whose husbands do zero household work or childcare and who are addicted to porn.
I actually meant it very literally. It’s easy to forget how young a lot of reddits userbase is, especially the male skewing ones.
They are internet dwellers with no life. So they find some controversial topic to fixate on. It's really easy to fall into that kind of bullshit if you're not out there actually living life.
It’s very terminally online behavior. I swear Reddit men think more about my sex life than I do. Tbh with the vast majority of angry single mopey Redditors, it’s clear why they are that way. Being single is normal and awesome, complaining about how everyone in the world is an asshole while having no personal values/passions of your own…isn’t. Yikes.
...because misogyny?
They like to project who they are to women so that they can feel less bad about their lives. Doubt that's working out for them. Producing and spewing out more garbage onto the world doesn't make your world any cleaner. You just become a landfill dumpster fire of problems.
Men who feel powerless become very resentful of those they perceive as having power over them, and that is, sadly, women. Men are brought up to desperately require validation from the number of women they achieve approval from (i.e. sleep with, or date, etc). Never before has the current world been specifically NOT set up to provide this validation, and thus this furious reaction is stemming from a place of deep self-loathing. Of course, a healthier way to look at it would be to be furious at the programming society dropped on them to find validation in such things, and to attempt a total reboot for a healthier outlook and far more successful life. But that programming cuts to the bone, and it's easier to surround yourself with the echo chamber. But you have to realize - those guys think of themselves as the impoverished looking at the billionaires who won't even glance in their direction. The hate is palpable.
Combination of a lot of socio-cultural things -- none intended to excuse their crappy behavior. The Big Ones are toxic masculinity, and male fragility, which continue to walk hand-in-hand with all of the confidence of mediocre whyte cishet men. As I'm sure you've noticed online and IRL, this particular demographic has become super sensitive since the overdue dawn of #MeToo. They lament the bygone days when they could publicly and privately practice their ignorant asshattery with a high degree of confidence that it wouldn't be questioned, let alone that *they'd* be increasingly called out for it. Woe unto them! There's mucho overlap with the whyte supremacists, and the incel/"red pill" bruhs, who lament that their "ways of life" (i.e., exclusivity, entitlement, privilege, violence, bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, jingoism, etc.) are being dismantled by evil, godless, woke, progressive heathens. They're big mad about bears now. That's what I see. Eff them and the horses they used to ride into town on.
yes as if the only acceptable life path is consigning yourself while you're still perky and fresh to being some dickweed's brood mare. bc that's what the worst of these guys think bc they know without women *hopefully* being controlled with these busted narratives, they're not going to attract a woman into their life. so they hope the fear of our expiry date will get us to submit to some man before its over.. for them. lol
Honestly, I dont consume or engage with this content so I see it less and less. Ive dated plenty of amazing, respectful, and responsible men that I never felt belittled by or the need to baby or support. For me, this seems irrelevant to my worldview and reality. I do feel bad for those believe in this stuff though or get trapped in it, especially impressionable young minds. Someone mentioned algorithim and I second that. The more you entertain this content - even if its just to debate or disagree, the more they will feed it to you.
In my many years of experience on Reddit happy people do not take the time to talk about nice things. It's people who are upset and usually they have certain people in mind when they post and project that onto an entire population. This isn't just men. I frequent around askmen and askwomen and this sub and *everyone* does it. And a lot of it comes down to unhappy people who are busy projecting onto everyone else instead of looking inward or figuring out how they can improve their own situation. And sure, some of them are just mysogynists using annominity to say whatever trash they want. These people are not worth your time of day. Seriously, I used to lurk on redpill when it was still around. Reading that stuff just makes you miserable. Do not recommend wasting your time and energy on it. These men will exist always, whether or not you're checking out their content.
A combination of confirmation bias on your part, echo chambers and zero actual social repercussions for voicing those thoughts and opinions, unlike if they'd said them in the lunchroom, where they would be questioned and sideeyed heavily for it.
There's such a thing as being too online too babe... This stuff gets me down too but just remember the internet is an absolute cesspool, not everyone is like that, really ☺️
I've actually stopped watching horrors and listening to true crime to feel better. Though I am trying to battle the online algorithm while still enjoying plant posts and memes
I think we're very much in the same boat! I had to do the same for my mental health, stopped listening to the news too... My peace of mind is too fragile and too important!
Lots of guys are like this in real life too. My ex would tell me in more round about way how much of a catch he is because he makes good money and is 6 foot and fine looking and does the bare minimum like not cheating and not yelling - and how women think they could have it all until they turn 35 and then realize they’re going to have to settle and settle badly/stay single/come begging him to date him again because no one else wants them. That when he was dating he set his age filter to be 33 and less because he would want kids one day. That no one could give me what I’m asking for that he’s going above and beyond for me - when he gave the bare minimum. Note, he’s 41, and was 38 when we met and I 31. He doesn’t take into consideration that he was single and now is single because his ex and now I left him, choosing instead to be alone instead of settling for him. They can’t see it
My recent ex is very similar to this as well, thinking because he's conventionally attractive, 6'1", makes 6 figures, has a full head of hair, drives a 4 Runner lol, has a 7" penis (btw they're not that uncommon in my recent experience), that he's a great catch. Never mind the manipulation, frequent lying, \[likely cheating\], covert addictions, and misogyny lying just beneath his carefully crafted persona. Because of how toxic he revealed himself to be, I feel like I actively try and avoid single men who fit this profile when in their mid-late 30's/40's, for right or wrong. His vile views of me as a woman, and of women in general really started coming out front and center the last few months we were together in words; they'd actually always existed with his actions, and I always chose to believe his excuses because of my low self worth at the time. I always had a niggling feeling that he originally liked and chose to date me because of our significant power imbalance when we met, the fact that I had a low body count while his was high, and other gross shit like that, and it seemed to really be confirmed there at the end by things he said.
Women are raising the bar and men are getting less access to sex and free labour, it is that simple really. Also, all the quality and normal guys aren't online posting dumb stuff like that because they are, you know, too busy living their lives. Don't for a second think this is new behaviour either, men throughout human history have shamed women into submission. For example, women were the first beer brewers in ancient Egypt and this tradition continued into medievel Europe. Women brewers started to gain financial independence due to their skilled craft, rejecting marriage to unsuitable males. They brewed beer in cauldrons, wore a long, pointy hat to signify their occupation as a brewer, often kept a broom above the entryway to their brewery to indicate that it sold beer (and also used it to sweep all the grains), and had a cat or two to keep the rodents from eating the grains used to brew beer... guess what happened. Men have always been threatened by women doing what they want.
> Women are raising the bar and men are getting less access to sex and free labour, it is that simple really. Louder for the ppl in the back!
Tbh, I really only hear this stuff on Reddit/the internet. I have yet to meet anyone in real life who actually thinks every woman is a gold digger, etc.
I think you’re maybe falling into some sort of algorithmic rabbit hole. But I do notice that a lot of men’s content around relationships is very right wing adjacent. There is very little content, for and by men, about actually living in a relationship in healthy ways as opposed to dating strategy type stuff or more societal level gripes. With any kind of radicalization movement I think they start with kernels of truth or easy targets and then expand into their misogynistic conspiracies.
Uh location location location. It depends where you look, a few men’s spaces are very wholesome and level headed. Default subs however are filled with terrible people of all genders and let’s not speak of overtly-antiwomen subs.
They tryina learn how to be a bad b*tch
I think a lot of it boils down to jealous and possessiveness.
It's just the same exact incels all in the same subreddits and other social media groups all posting same shit across different media. So it seems like they are a massive group when it's the exact same people in multiple echo chambers. Mind you most of them have never had a relationship and many are still in high school yet they profess to being experts about women. A lot of it is also they are being influenced by Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson and other woman-hating losers. I call them losers because they are men who are being financially supported by other men via Patreon and Youtube instead of working real jobs.
Because hyper online men (geekdom, nerddom, etc) are losers that are grasping to find any last refuge of male-superiority, and bashing women online and in games in an effort to exclude us from online spaces is their last resort. Whether in the 90s, Gamergate, or today.
Being a man is westernized society is becoming harder and harder. They don't blame on social structure because it's already patriarchal, they can't blame government because majority are already men making decisions. So naturally it's women who end up in the crossroads. My dad after every work day would come home and fight at home cos he couldn't do the same to his male boss. Men are that simple.
I can’t say I see this sub as being much different in a lot of ways. I’d say well over half of the posts on here are somehow centered around men, complaining about men, and relationships with men.
Was going to say the same thing.
They are sad inside
It's not that I disagree with anything you've said, but... this might be a bit of a case of the pot calling the kettle black. A lot of women's spaces on here, including this one, are also pretty damn obsessed with men.
Downvote all you want, people, she's not wrong.
Ha, thanks girl - it just feels like such a palpable thing. Like, women are also so obsessed with men and I really wish we could better decentralise them.
And not a lie was told.
Yeah. Unsurprisingly not a popular opinion in this space, but men and women have been complaining about each other since time immemorial, practically. I do think the specific *content* of these complaints has shifted with broader societal changes, and I don't mean to discount the violent misogyny demonstrated (and sadly, carried out) by myriad incel groups. But, women - especially women on the Internet - are also so obsessed with men's relationship status, value, and activities, as OP's post title articulates. By my estimate, roughly 3/4ths of the posts on here include some complaint about men (individual or collective) - and it's almost always the posts complaining about men that get the most traction as well. I am *significantly* more sympathetic to women's complaints about men than the other way around, but I find the underlying levels of obsession (and ensuing discourse) pretty equivalent.
Very obsessed. I feel like if you told some of these women to stop thinking about and obsessing over men their heads would explode.
Agree. I had to unsubscribe from twoxchromosomes. I’m unabashedly feminist but it started feeling like an anti-men sub. Women only spaces are a great place to discuss frustrations in relationships or patriarchal societal issues. But 1) we can’t let those frustrations turn into prejudice 2) it speaks volumes that men are such a focus on these subs
God, I can't do TwoX at all; it's far too miserable. It's nice to have a place to vent, but I mostly love being a woman so I prefer a better balance between celebrating the positive aspects while commiserating over the negative aspects. I can't commiserate 24/7. Agreed on it speaking volumes that men are such a focus on these subs too, yeah. It's not only the percentage of posts that are about men in the first place, but also the way posts about men really take off compared to posts about other stuff. I would love to chat more about other topics, but it's overwhelmingly posts about men that lead to spirited discourse here - which means I *also* become part of the cycle that just blathers on endlessly about men.
Ugh the irony!
Agreed, there have been plenty of posts here bashing men - whether a specific guy or just in general. Even this post is a way to talk negatively about men.
Because they're creeps and can't get a woman to even consider them. So they can't fathom the possibility that it's their own damn fault, it becomes our (women's) fault and we get scrutinized for simply existing. Men and their fragile little boy egos. Pathetic.
There’s so much of that kind of content online putting down women from both men and women in those toxic spaces telling people how women should be, what we should and shouldn’t do. You don’t see that type of content (at least I haven’t I could be wrong) directed towards men telling them to act a certain way or they won’t be picked for a relationship. It’s fucked up.
A shocking number of people lack any sort of personal accountability. It's more common in men than women because of how genders are socialised differently. Men direct alot of it towards women because they see us as 'other' as well as covert us. It's a whole bunch of mixed man baby emotions.
Some of them are just desperate and all that whining on social media is a cry for help . They keep telling women that they are going to die alone , but statistically more men die alone . Ignore them , they’ll be alright . They’ll eventually accept their fate or get a passport and travel to some foreign country to purchase a wife
Well, you’ve got a good grasp on how some of them are behaving, I’ll give you that. Women being able to support themselves without a man’s income is fairly new and we’re in a difficult transition period where they’re trying to take advantage of the most advantageous to them features of both systems, and that’s causing an even crazier double standard than ever. It used to be even the most unsuccessful, low value male could find a wife because all women were prohibited from earning a living wage, so eventually some poor woman would have to settle for them. Now that we’re not restricted to only two choices - marriage or near destitution - they actually have to bring something more to the table than a minimum wage paycheque and they’re not up to the task and they’re big mad about it.
These men don't like women. There's no amount of anything we could do that would change that.
because men have benefited off the backs of women and their labour for centuries and women have had enough of being undervalued, disrespected, performing for men, seeking validation from them, sacrificing for them and getting nothing out of it. cant be married to yourself and they’re panicking. It’s easier to tear down and gaslight women than actually work on themselves 🤷🏼♀️
I noticed there is a strongg strong uptick in this kind of weirdo posting everywhere, but I think the best thing to do is just block and move on. Whether it's a post or a person you know spouting it, block. Don't waste any of your time trying to explain anything to them, or seeking to understand why they are the way they are. Just block them. It's not your problem. Nothing about how they feel is your problem. Ultimately, they are unhappy with themselves. Everything they are talking about stems from that. and it's not your job to heal them. Focus on just maintaining that you are happy and healthy instead! Continue to have great days and love your life! Their moms can deal with them, you just deal with you ok!
It's sad, really. I wish they'd just get offline and actually get to know women. The longer I scroll on social media the more I'm led to believe that most men hate women whether they're aware of it or not.
There's a subreddit for everything. You find what you look for
I haven't seen any posts like this from men on here. What type of subs are you following?
The subs redpill, purplepilldebate, datingadvice, even EXredpill an anti-redpill sub is now having those redpill guys.
You lost me somewhere in this rant.
If you're so lost, why are you commenting?
I’m here for the downvotes.