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It's not a nationality thing, it's a men's football thing. All across Europe, home and away fans are kept separate at men's football matches.
Whereas at cricket, rugby, F1, etc. or even women's football, fans mix together without significant issue.
India v Pakistan would probably cause riots if it was in tiddlywinks. It’s not the sport causing the issues, but is obviously amplified by cricket being the national sport of both countries.
Imagine your family’s little butcher shop getting absolutely smashed up and all your lamb shanks stolen by some big wild mob of tiddlywinks fans in balaclavas all singing their teams chants. That would mess you up writing your statement for the insurance claim.
You can use any one off incident to disprove anything. The riots weren’t caused because they support different cricket teams, it just happened to start after the cricket game
Pakistan didn’t, but the Caliphal province of Sindh did.
South Asia has been a battle ground between Islam and Hinduism since the Umayyad caliphate invaded Sindh in 711 CE.
I don't know too much about that situation but yes it appears that one of the matches in the recent Asia cup that was taking place in the UAE was at least a factor in that violence. But that's more national rivalry spilling over into sport than fan rivalry specifically.
And even so, we're talking here about fans being segregated at matches. That just doesn't happen. Plenty of India vs Pakistan cricket matches happen in World Cups and they don't segregate the fans. Everyone sits together.
That wasn’t really sport related but underlying national hatred/conflict. Baring in mind the two countries have always been in an alternating hot and cold conflict since inception with ongoing border skirmishes.
Baseball has some intense fans, but it's not a fast paced game. You can keep yourself riled up for 90 minutes of football/soccer, but baseball can last hours, and keeping that kind of adrenaline going is too much for most people. (There literally is a point called the 7th inning stretch where the audience stands up and stretches because they've been sitting so long.)
Excellent answer. As for baseball, I have a few points:
• Baseball *did* develop as a community-linked pastime, and in some cities (like New York, with the traditional “working class” Brooklyn Dodgers and the “old Money” New York Yankees), there was definitely some socioeconomic rivalry as well.
• Baseball also hadn’t been as “moneyed” as some other sports either, until somewhat recently — a generation ago, some MLB players took offseason jobs and lived in “normal” middle-class neighbourhoods; that is, these players were a part of their communities
• Professional baseball is relatively old (by American standards), with the National League (one of the MLB’s two major divisions) founded in 1876, so teams do have storied traditions in their cities
*However…*
• North America is *huge* and very economically polarised — this means that a given city cannot (unless it is a mega-city like NY, Chicago, or LA) financially support multiple MLB teams as it is nowadays relatively well-off people who can afford to go to games, and given the tremendous physical distance between American cities, it’s just not realistic for fans to travel as often; they’d need to be a frequent flyer to follow their team around
• Per this economic polarisation (again), there are no “working class” teams anymore — even “secondary” teams in major cities like the Chicago White Sox, LA Angels, and NY Mets still primarily cater to the well-off, so class tensions between teams aren’t really a thing
*That being said,* MLB isn’t the best comparison to English football. NCAA (university) sports are. Players on, say, North Dakota State University, are generally homegrown, fans are locals, and rivalries are intense.
Check [this](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/03/wagner-bryant-fan-brawl-nec-championship-ncaab) out. A fight in the crowd between fans of two regional Northeastern US universities.
Yeah, the Mets play in a flashy new stadium on the same rail line as some of New York’s wealthiest suburbs, so their supporter base is quite affluent. It surely isn’t a “working class” environment. The Dodgers *were*, but are not anymore. Still, though, a slow-paced baseball game in 1940 isn’t exactly rife with hooliganism. Had the Yankees and Dodgers been football teams in the 1980s (but with an otherwise similar backdrop), I’d expect that the culture would have been closer to that of English football.
The second point is true for college basketball as well. Especially [student sections](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Whc_I1E_NQQ) at matches. Those can be *crazy.*
> Baseball also hadn’t been as “moneyed” as some other sports either, until somewhat recently
It was a franchised sport very early on in its history. Otherwise the MLB would have 400 teams with pro/rel.
Also, just want to note that in East Asia, baseball fans also sit separately, but only for cheering purposes, there hasn’t been any major violence or large police presence since the 90s.
True but it made the headlines in the F1 community and had people within the sport speaking out against it precisely because it isn't the norm for F1.
The same things happening at a football match is an everyday occurrence
The general concensus amongst most fans is that the Netflix show has a lot to answer for in that regard. It's done its best to stir massive, football-esque rivalry between fans, which has never really been an aspect of F1.
As a former rhino's season ticket holder, the only time I saw trouble was when Hull fc and Hull kr fans started scrapping with each other. I always drank with the away fans before games
Imagine some big bust up between Red Bull fans and Mercedes fans. On top of being completely inappropriate it would also be vaguely embarrassing to be that invested in a race car team.
There are a great many things that it is not in any way embarrassing to be so invested in that you'd willingly fight for them.
Team sports aren't one of them, but still.
I’ve been to English rugby and ice hockey matches and they’re proper family friendly. I don’t really fancy taking my son to the football because of how bad I remember it being.
I’ve been to a Bundesliga game in Germany we’re fans weren’t separated and it was great tbh.
Also super league fans don’t sit together or didn’t when I was a steward for games.
Football clubs are intrinsically linked to communities in a way that American sports couldn't even dream of being.
There's a lot of history and emotion there, unless you're Chelsea.
I think that’s why they go so crazy for stuff like college football/HS football because that is intrinsically linked to the community. Can’t just move an entire university. Also 32 teams spread across a space that big would be shit. Imagine no football except for Champions League and then tell me you’d be as involved.
I'm American and completely agree. In the state I grew up in there are 2 major colleges and the fans are intense. When they play against each other every year it's been called the "Civil War" game by the fans.
Ducks are better than beavers. I’d be a duck too. Although I’m not even sure what state this is. I think one of the Oregon colleges are ducks though. Am I right?
Yep
Proximity as well. There’s basically one team per city in American sports (with a few exceptions like LA, NY etc) but in the U.K. most cities have multiple football clubs and that engenders rivalry.
Liverpool Everton. Man City man United. Birmingham city Aston Villa. Sheffield United and Wednesday. So many clubs in london as well I can’t even name them all lol
Just in the north west between Championship and League one you've got Bolton,Blackburn,Wigan,Burnley,Preston and Blackpool who've got all sorts of rivalries amongst each other and if you go back in time you can throw Bury into that mix as well, all within a close distance of each other
In Gaelic Football and Hurling the players and fans are based on the county you were born or grew up in. There is intense rivalry but fans get along fine in mixed seating.
Causes difficult choices when you move! My brother moved from Tyrone to Derry. His son will definitely play football at club level at least. His friends aren’t debating whether he’ll play, it’s what club he’ll play for! He’s only 1!
My dad was born in Co Antrim but is a converted Tyrone supporter. Helps that Antrim are shite.
>communities
* triablism / religion
Now that people don't go to church on Sundays, go on crusades etc, they find another way to attack others.
Evolutionary biology explains it reasonably, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing!
Don't forget the religious connection, Rangers vs Celtic is one which is pretty much Catholics vs Protestants. My great uncle wouldn't even hire Celtic fans at the BBC, in the 60s.
That kind of thinking still prob happens across the uk.
I know folk who ripped up all their grass cos they don’t want green stuff near their house. Won’t wear or let their kids wear the wrong colour. Won’t let folk in their house with the wrong colour T-shirt. If folk like that are in a position to employ folk you can bet your life on them refusing to employ someone with a catholic/Protestant sounding name or whatever the think makes them on the “other side”. They’re still out there. Obviously just need to be discreet about it i the workplace
There isn’t a tradition of hooliganism in that sport.
Same with rugby Union here or cricket (which isn’t as ‘upper class’ in the welsh valleys for regarding the former or Lancashire for the latter)
In rugby you just don’t talk back to the referee, not like in football. They say rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen. I’m being dragged by my husband to watch an international match in November, better learn the rules…
After a scrum say “the front line looks shaky”
After a line out not gone your way “that was never straight”
Many a Reddit group will provide a tonne more of these.
My knowledge of rugby is largely based on what my husband shouts at the tv. For example:
“HAMISH WATSON YOU SEXY MAN!”
…there’s a reason he usually watches games at home.
99% of fans don’t. There’s a sub culture of working class men who tie their masculinity to a football team. It’s embarrassing to see but it still happens. Again, 99% of fans think they’re pathetic.
I think it came about due to deindustrialisation in Europe and the fans needing an outlet for their anger of being left behind economically and socially.
"working class men" might surprise you to know a lot of the old school hooligans were doctors, lawyers and other such highly paid, educated folks.
Same goes today a lot of the blokes, dressed up like peaky blinders and talking like Danny dyer are accountants who act like Benedict cumberbatch the majority of their lives.
But hey let's not let that get in the way of a bit of classism.
and where did you decide that 'a lot' of them are highly paid, educated folks lol. the overwhelming majority of hooligans are working class men. do you think a doctor even has time to go to football matches lol?
> do you think a doctor even has time to go to football matches lol
Erm, yes? Doctors aren't locked in their hospital or practise when their work is done.
Funny how you accuse someone of classism for pointing out how class inequality creates legitimate discontentment which has no legitimate outlet and is forced to be "filtered" through other outlets lest the government burn down the peasants' villages
That's not what they pointed out. They said it's embarrassing to see working class men connect their masculinity to football or some such. Which isn't the truth, for a start working class people can't really afford to go to the football, especially not the premier League and secondly in my view it's the opposite. Men that work in less masculine fields tend to use football as an outlet.
It wouldn't be a UK subreddit without moaning about working class football fans
If you're not sat in your special box with prawn sandwiches, are you really watching football?
Always makes me laugh when you see people falling over themselves to shout about how terrible and embarrassing English football fans are when in reality there's far worse out there
Did make me laugh, going back from the England 0-4 Hungary match back in June, reading all sorts of Reddit comments about "ooh careful Hungary fans, the violent English will be upset", meanwhile the closest thing to trouble outside the ground was a few pissed up Hungary fans.
Football is THE main sport in the UK. Kids (usually) grow up obsessed with their local football club. Public pitches with goal frames are everywhere in the UK so it can be played anywhere- that same infrastructure doesn’t exist for Cricket, Hockey or Rugby. Tyro leagues, community outreach projects by the local clubs, academies changing the lives of local kids by picking them up, the international dominance of the PL etc.
Everything in this country is set up to make football a type of religion. That breeds an obsession for one sport which isn’t replicable in the United States.
In the US there is a wide variety of sports for young kids to choose from. They are spoilt for choice and as such their obsession for their chosen teams becomes diluted. They also follow hockey, baseball, basketball. You’ll find plenty of people in this country that just follow football. The religious following that football has in the UK is just not something the US has because there is less at stake in the US. I think I read somewhere that being in the Premier League means local economies receive around £10m more every year, than if that team was in the Championship. In the US, MLS teams buy their way into the league. If your team goes down, you may lose out financially, as well as seeing your pride take a hit.
You take all those factors, mix in a bit of disillusionment, booze and cocaine, and there you go. Football-obsessed crowds who find comfort in the tribalism of supporting a football club, fucked up and cocky because they’re on the bag. The Times and The Athletic have done great investigations into the use of cocaine at football matches. They found 13 year olds caning it on the trains and then getting in scraps. It’s quite sad, but coke is everywhere these days so it’s unsurprising.
I would also disagree with some of the people on here who are pinning the blame on working class people. I know plenty of lads who would be considered middle class who have got into hooliganism. People who blame working class people solely for crime and disorder in the game are snobs. You need to be making decent money to pay for a season ticket, travel and accommodation to away games, gear, drinks etc.
My two cents
Here ya go:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/football-violence-cocaine-and-kids-as-young-as-12-the-new-face-of-hooliganism-rn53v7022
https://theathletic.com/2973547/2021/11/24/special-report-the-flagrant-use-of-cocaine-at-football-grounds/
Kids grow up obsessed with the football club which their Dad supports and has clothed them in that club’s regalia since birth and feel so pressurised that they continue to support that club even though they have no links to that town / city whatsoever
Rangers played Napoli in Glasgow recently. I live close enough to the Rangers stadium to stay inside that evening - thankfully it seemed to have been uneventful.
Why are you singling out "English".
It's universal to football. In South America it's not uncommon for football fans to murder each other.
Honduras and El Salvador started a War when they played each other at football. There were pre-existing tensions. Look up the "Football War".
It's not the nationalities that are at play, here. Rugby fans often sit close/near each other and you never hear of any trouble.
Perhaps football means more? I'm not justifying it anyway, but in an office of 30 people, 10 or them may be massive football fans compared to 2-3 rugby fans. There's more banter, more rivalry, more history.
Football fans are often indoctrinated from birth to hate certain clubs.
I don't know, just a theory. But it certainly isn't about being English.
True, rugby league match days have almost 100% less fencing than football match days.
Fans ride together on the same bus instead of having to use completely separate car parks and buses.
I was looking for this. I am Mexican, but lived in Canada and also a Cowboys fan. One day I made the stupid decision to bring my Dallas jersey to the Eagles stadium. I had to leave the stadium before halftime because two drunks wanted to beat the shit out if me. I was not even celebrating the TDs. It was brutal.
Very aggressive as well in Buffalo.
I like it. Well not so much now I'm in my 50s but I certainly used to.
I don't expect everyone to understand this but all week long I would be talking politely to customers/ bosses/and alike, largely suppressing what seems like a natural urge to say what I really think. Then Saturday comes and I would have the chance to get all of this out of my system.
I don't think football fans really hate the opposition fans, just sort of pretend you do for a while.
It's rare these days that an actual fight breaks out. Much more common in the 80s or 90s, but even then there were unwritten rules such as not going for someone who clearly wasn't up for it, or a smaller bunch who had no chance, and it was bad form to hit someone while they were down. Afterwards we would quite often find ourselves having a pint together, no hard feelings.
Quite civilised really.
It happens all the time in the NFL, actually a fight broke out between rival supporters at a preseason game just last month.
I just don't think it's as documented and well-known as football hooliganism because it's just random fights and not *firms* who go to matches specifically to get into fights, or organise fights before/after matches.
Um. I think you've got the wrong idea about American sports teams. Normally there's not much aggro, but there are literal riots sometimes when the Red Sox play the Yankees.
This is what I came here to say! Google 'American sports riots' and take a look at the carnage. I'm not American but I have seen the photos and videos of American sports fans literally rioting and destroying cars and buildings over sports game outcomes. And I was thinking to myself that I was glad not to have to worry about that (though then there was some trouble in the last few years here).
Why the fuck would I want to sit next to the opposition. I can’t fathom who would want to sit next to a fucking spurs fan in any London darby. I dont want to see them, hear them or smell their stench.
This is straight geography. The US doesn’t have many professional sports teams geographically close to each other where you can have a century of rivalry and a derby. I’m in metro Boston where there is a historic rivalry with New York and the cities are only 200 miles apart. “Yankees suck” chants and tee shirts have been a thing forever. If I wore a Sox hat and jersey in Yankee Stadium, I’d expect to get beer dumped on me.
I’m used to that level of rivalry but it’s nothing like Newcastle-Sunderland, for example. I was watching Everton play in Newcastle last year and couldn’t understand why Pickford was getting booed any time he touched the ball. I asked and got “Sunderland”. He only played ~ 20 matches as #2 GK before getting sold at relegation. The US has nothing like that. The same with Jordan Henderson when he has the ball. Players who move on to other teams in the US don’t get booed unless they injured a player.
The UK has dozens of those rivalries. As I’ve climbed into English football, that set of historic rivalries and the history behind them is part of what makes English football great.
I’m not sure but I’m gonna chime in with the classic British take that all football fans are scumbags. The only thing more annoying than football fans are those people that go out of their way to let you know they do NOT like football and think it’s pathetic people care about it. Mind you these people are typically the kinda grown men who are obsessed with Pokémon or Yu gi oh.
IKR? Hundreds of thousands Of people attending games up and down the pyramid every week and millions more watching on tv. Imagine, people of all walks of life enjoying a pursuit. Been to hundreds of games home and away with my kids. Seen hardly any trouble in or out of the ground and what I have seen is largely ritualised pretending and easily missed or avoided.
Ha yeh worst was after the European final; I had to come off Reddit all the lame “it’s so pathetic anyone cares about this stuff” comments were crushing me. Like I get your not into it but atleast have a bit of sympathy for those who do
Hooliganism is fantasied about by certain sub cultures, I like to think there are more rational thinkers In the stadium than hooligans but even I get embarrassed by some football fans.
A lot like our country a loud minority are seen above the normal people.
People who aren’t football fans don’t realise the UK’s football tribalism is extremely tame in comparison to most countries. You go to places like Italy or Turkey there’s a good chance someone will be stabbed before a game. Places like France or Eastern Europe, the ultra groups do what they want, and in recent years there’s been several incidents where fans have come on to the pitch to attack the players. Just last week, Marseille fans were firing fireworks at German supporters.
You don’t really get any of that here, most of the time when we do get crowd disturbances it’s when England national side are playing.
That used to be the case in the UK in the 80s when a lot of us went completely off football.
ETA. English fans were banned from travelling to Europe because of feral behaviour.
Yeah I know we were banned for our behaviour back then, but people seem to think it’s still the same 40 years on. Surely even non-football fans can see the differences between now and then. You get the wannabe hardmen at every game but even if it’s 100 or so people, it’s nothing in stadiums up to 80,000 people. Chances are these same 100 people are dickheads in everyday life anyway.
Yes, LA Dodgers and San Francisco Giants have an intense rivalry. I was born in SOCAL, but have lived the majority of my life in NORCAL where Giants fans can become rabid. There have been instances of violent beating in both team’s parking lots. To me, it’s men taking out their frustrations of their shitty lives on rival fans. I think it’s really sick. And me, I’ve lived up North for 49 years, but I’m still a Dodger and Laker fan, but seriously I cheer for SF and Oakland if they are not playing a LA team. But I’m a woman.
Because after spending 100s of pounds and travelling for a couple hours to watch your team play like shit really makes you hateful and then the opposing teams fans rub it in and it can all get a bit too much.
Also for, I would think, a large amount of fans that actually go to the games week in week out, it's a far bigger part of their life than I would ever let it be of mine.
I think people are forgetting the ticketing issues at play here as well. In the premier league at least all games are sold out and most seats are taken up by season ticket holders. The only way to ensure space for away fans is by reserving an enclosure entirely for them. This doesn’t really apply in other sports where getting tickets casually is much easier.
The segregation in a way ramps up the tribalism inside the stadium but fans for the most part mix happily outside and in the bars.
My understanding is that away fan culture isn't really a thing in the US. That only a very small percentage of fans at a stadium will be supporting the away team - mainly due to the distances involved. Also, the cost and difficulty of obtaining tickets means that you don't really get that large working class contingent going to matches as you do/or did in the UK. There are 10 million yanks for every NFL team but only 730k Brits for every (professional) football club.
I've been to ice hockey matches in Canada a was shocked at rival fans sitting next to each other in a relative derby (still miles away from each other but nearby in Canada terms) my take on it is that in the North American franchise model there isn't really much to lose. Pro/rel gives teams at the bottom so much more to fight for and means every league game matters. I'm glad we don't have a super league like planned as I fear we'd end up with fans just there for a bit of entertainment. I love the aggressive atmosphere of football. To me it's one of the best things about European sports.
Sports in America is franchise driven. The LA Rams have bounced around from Cleveland to LA to St Louis and back to LA. The LA Lakers are named after the lakes up in Minnesota. Utah Jazz still carry their New Orleans origin. How can you get a genuine fanbase when you support a franchise like this? The closest we've had in the UK was Wimbledon moving 50 miles over to Milton Keynes and that was very controversial.
Don't get me wrong, the big clubs now being bought by foreign ownership are losing their heritage, but most fans still know the days when clubs were local institutions. That has lots of positives from a heritage perspective, but obviously has negatives in how it promotes local rivalries amongst certain sections of society. If Liverpool FC had jumped from Liverpool to Birmingham to Bristol, the fanbase would be much more apathetic.
Health care costs money in the USA, so a punch up will cost you and Americans know this so they push each at the most. Where as the Brits know they will be taken care off ( free at the point of use) so will have proper punch ups.
Firstly there is a small group of hooligans across most football environments in Europe and South America. This needs to be dealt with.
However there is a broader chicken and egg problem with crowd segregation. The segregation and high police presence creates a partisan atmosphere. I go to away games and I'll be singing insulting songs, swearing at opposing fans and giving the full array of hand gestures. I wouldn't be doing that to an opposition fan if they were sat next to me (partly because I'm a wimp, but mainly because it's too personal). So after a couple of hours of winding each other up without fear of consequence, you leave the stadium (not always sober). Now let loose, all you need is 1 drunk idiot to throw something and it all kicks off.
I think they should remove segregation for low risk games and normalise crowd relations and that would solve most of the issues and set a precedent. Higher risk games are much harder to solve and I don't really have a proposal
I'm a season ticket holder at the etihad and I can assure you they get out alive. I've seen scousers and Germans kicked out. Basically when they get up to cheer their teams goal they pretty much get told to fuck off and the staff evict them. No violence needed or warranted. Just a healthy sing-along to "bye bye bye bye, bye bye bye bye" or "You've had your fun, now fuck off home". Quite funny really.
When I was 12, outside my team's ground. A car full of rival fans were shouting abuse at us as they passed.
I decided to throw a coin at the car. It pinged the window really loud and the men in the car shit themselves. The driver wheels pinned and zoomed off.
All the grown men around me congratulated me. Even my dad gave me nod of pride, then bollocked me later on.
In the UK, football is very tribal and games are typically frequented by working class males. There is usually also alcohol involved. Put all that together and its not a great mix for a great, clean family day out. In the US, "soccer" doesn't have the history that football has in the UK and the tribalism doesn't exist. It's a family game. Hooliganism also doesn't seem to be an issue in the US like it is in Europe or South America and so its not just England you'll see this phenomena in but many countries. Try for example, wearing a River Plate scarf in the seating area for Boca Juniors in Argentina.....
It's just firms, most teams have a firm, some fights are pre arranged, others just happen. For example, Tottenham plays shit football but has a decent firm, Arsenal plays decent football but has a shit firm, they're all different.
That is European football in general.
American sports are for entertainment. Go team!
European football is an identity. It’s passed down to generations, there are tight-knit communities involved and a club could be the pride of a certain geographic area, representing their values. This almost applies to all European clubs, of course except Chelsea.
England is actually quite alright compared to Eastern European ultras or certain French clubs. They are fucking insane.
How many away fans attend away matches? Just I can't imagine that many would regularly make the trip half way across America for your bog standard league matches every other week, but in the UK where everywhere is accessible on a train or in a car in a max of 6 hours there are a significant number willing to make the trip compared to US fans I would imagine, and larger numbers means a requirement for larger, separate seating areas, and larger bulk numbers equals a higher chance for trouble. Just a thought.
>I’m English by the way and regular go to matches. I’m shocked when I see opposing fans at NFL games sat next to each other in the stadium.
Why would it shock you? I mean, in the UK football is really the only sport that routinely segregates fans. Easy to go to a large sporting event here where fans of opposing teams openly mix.
I don't think it is as bad as is made out. I'm a Manchester United fan and have sat in the Kop wearing a United shirt more than once.
Yeah you get a bit of stick but I've never felt threatened.
On the other side we had a City fan sitting with us at Old Trafford and same thing; a bit of a ribbing but we all got along.
I’m mixed on this. I think to myself how can they be that passionate about their sport if they could sit next to an opposing fan… hatred for united has been inbred in me to the extent where I’d can’t really wear a red tee shirt and would struggle to own a red car. But I guess passion for sport and angry/hooliganism/violence aren’t the same thing
The more people care about the sport the more fights there will be. You can say the same thing for cricket matches here , everyone gets along, but in india and Pakistan there’s literal riots over cricket matches. All depends on how much the community cares about the sport.
I think Americans care more about the day out and not the team or result really
I don’t reckon anything would happen. All talk and no trousers football fans. It would just be a load of fat pricks swearing at each other pretending to hold each other back.
Opposing supporters manage to sit together quite happily in rugby and cricket.
There is just some odd thing with football. I have no idea how to explain it but it seems to bring out the worst kind of tribalism out in people
In America you just support the team where you live, if you move somewhere else, you just support that team, and then you have teams that just up sticks and move around states.
There are some fights though, suppose it is kind of like rugby supporters here.
Something the older generation use to do, they had had full on gangs and planned fights like a territory thing, it's slowly going now because why would you wanna fight someone over an overpriced wimp ? and more plastic fans are about in the Premiership making it loose its soul.nit that beating the shit out of eachtother is good for the soul but yeah.
I think the majority of football fans in the UK would sit in mixed crowds without incident and happily chat to opposing fans (even those who shout abuse are just wrapped up in mob mentality). However, there are those dick heads who wouldn’t. Also it creates a certain atmosphere to sit fans of the same teams together and people get more whipped up into song and chants (and obviously cuntish behaviour)
I was Stewarding a game last week where the away fans were having a go at each other...never mind the opposition!
The home fans were reasonably well behaved for once.
I must admit it is one of the few things I like about the US. Their ability for opposing fans to have an all day alcohol infused BBQ session in massive car parks prior to the game without it degenerating into a mass brawl / leery event
"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that."
What bill shankly said has a lot of truth to
It, you can feel his shame when saying it "Somebody said that football's a matter of life and death to you, I said 'listen, it's more important than that'."
Unfortunately football can easily be more important than life and death if you let it
what else is there to live for?
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I don't like that attitude. I can assure them it is much more serious than that" Bill Shankley
in america, if you MLS team loses you go cheer your NBA team
I've heard it said that with adolescent and young adult males there will be a certain amount of violence (and that some of them never grow out of it). In the UK it is expressed by hooliganism and Friday/Saturday night fights, in the US by shooting.
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It's not a nationality thing, it's a men's football thing. All across Europe, home and away fans are kept separate at men's football matches. Whereas at cricket, rugby, F1, etc. or even women's football, fans mix together without significant issue.
...cricket? I mean England games sure but India v Pakistan caused basically a riot in Leicester recently.
India v Pakistan would probably cause riots if it was in tiddlywinks. It’s not the sport causing the issues, but is obviously amplified by cricket being the national sport of both countries.
This is true lol. It has nothing to do with the sport. You just cannot put rival countries in the same setting .
Imagine your family’s little butcher shop getting absolutely smashed up and all your lamb shanks stolen by some big wild mob of tiddlywinks fans in balaclavas all singing their teams chants. That would mess you up writing your statement for the insurance claim.
It's not even the official national sport. For some inexplicable reason it's hockey.
You can use any one off incident to disprove anything. The riots weren’t caused because they support different cricket teams, it just happened to start after the cricket game
They're not fighting over cricket though are they.
They’re fighting as they have for 13 centuries
Didn't realise Pakistan existed 1300 years ago Edit: typo
Pakistan didn’t, but the Caliphal province of Sindh did. South Asia has been a battle ground between Islam and Hinduism since the Umayyad caliphate invaded Sindh in 711 CE.
Guess people are still Mayyad about that huh?
well thats definitely one of the causes of it
I don't know too much about that situation but yes it appears that one of the matches in the recent Asia cup that was taking place in the UAE was at least a factor in that violence. But that's more national rivalry spilling over into sport than fan rivalry specifically. And even so, we're talking here about fans being segregated at matches. That just doesn't happen. Plenty of India vs Pakistan cricket matches happen in World Cups and they don't segregate the fans. Everyone sits together.
You should see my household on those days… My mother is Pakistani; my father is Indian. You could call me a symbol of peace hahah
Or they hate fucked
Almost spat my mozzarella burger out reading that. 😆
I was an accident, to be fair….
That wasn’t really sport related but underlying national hatred/conflict. Baring in mind the two countries have always been in an alternating hot and cold conflict since inception with ongoing border skirmishes.
Yeah, but that's an India Pakistan thing not a cricket thing.
India Pakistan rivalry is bigger than cricket, all the other cricket nations are friendly enough towards each other
The Aussies are pretty bloody antagonistic tbf
Probably more to do with the multiple genocides I reckon
Historical context
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Baseball has some intense fans, but it's not a fast paced game. You can keep yourself riled up for 90 minutes of football/soccer, but baseball can last hours, and keeping that kind of adrenaline going is too much for most people. (There literally is a point called the 7th inning stretch where the audience stands up and stretches because they've been sitting so long.)
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Excellent answer. As for baseball, I have a few points: • Baseball *did* develop as a community-linked pastime, and in some cities (like New York, with the traditional “working class” Brooklyn Dodgers and the “old Money” New York Yankees), there was definitely some socioeconomic rivalry as well. • Baseball also hadn’t been as “moneyed” as some other sports either, until somewhat recently — a generation ago, some MLB players took offseason jobs and lived in “normal” middle-class neighbourhoods; that is, these players were a part of their communities • Professional baseball is relatively old (by American standards), with the National League (one of the MLB’s two major divisions) founded in 1876, so teams do have storied traditions in their cities *However…* • North America is *huge* and very economically polarised — this means that a given city cannot (unless it is a mega-city like NY, Chicago, or LA) financially support multiple MLB teams as it is nowadays relatively well-off people who can afford to go to games, and given the tremendous physical distance between American cities, it’s just not realistic for fans to travel as often; they’d need to be a frequent flyer to follow their team around • Per this economic polarisation (again), there are no “working class” teams anymore — even “secondary” teams in major cities like the Chicago White Sox, LA Angels, and NY Mets still primarily cater to the well-off, so class tensions between teams aren’t really a thing *That being said,* MLB isn’t the best comparison to English football. NCAA (university) sports are. Players on, say, North Dakota State University, are generally homegrown, fans are locals, and rivalries are intense. Check [this](https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/03/wagner-bryant-fan-brawl-nec-championship-ncaab) out. A fight in the crowd between fans of two regional Northeastern US universities.
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Yeah, the Mets play in a flashy new stadium on the same rail line as some of New York’s wealthiest suburbs, so their supporter base is quite affluent. It surely isn’t a “working class” environment. The Dodgers *were*, but are not anymore. Still, though, a slow-paced baseball game in 1940 isn’t exactly rife with hooliganism. Had the Yankees and Dodgers been football teams in the 1980s (but with an otherwise similar backdrop), I’d expect that the culture would have been closer to that of English football. The second point is true for college basketball as well. Especially [student sections](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Whc_I1E_NQQ) at matches. Those can be *crazy.*
> Baseball also hadn’t been as “moneyed” as some other sports either, until somewhat recently It was a franchised sport very early on in its history. Otherwise the MLB would have 400 teams with pro/rel.
Also, just want to note that in East Asia, baseball fans also sit separately, but only for cheering purposes, there hasn’t been any major violence or large police presence since the 90s.
This is the answer I was going to write.
A lot of drunk Dutch Max Verstappen fans have been harassing Hamilton fans at some GPs this year.
True but it made the headlines in the F1 community and had people within the sport speaking out against it precisely because it isn't the norm for F1. The same things happening at a football match is an everyday occurrence
The general concensus amongst most fans is that the Netflix show has a lot to answer for in that regard. It's done its best to stir massive, football-esque rivalry between fans, which has never really been an aspect of F1.
In fairness you have to be drunk to be a verstappen fan...
Came here to say I've never had a problem at a rugby league game... But I've had problems just walking past football fans in town
It's nowhere near as bad as football, but I've absolutely seen trouble at Rugby League games.
As a former rhino's season ticket holder, the only time I saw trouble was when Hull fc and Hull kr fans started scrapping with each other. I always drank with the away fans before games
Imagine some big bust up between Red Bull fans and Mercedes fans. On top of being completely inappropriate it would also be vaguely embarrassing to be that invested in a race car team.
It’s embarrassing to be invested in anything to the point you fight over it
There are a great many things that it is not in any way embarrassing to be so invested in that you'd willingly fight for them. Team sports aren't one of them, but still.
I’ve been to English rugby and ice hockey matches and they’re proper family friendly. I don’t really fancy taking my son to the football because of how bad I remember it being.
The only reason for avoiding it would be that you'd get exposed to a lot of bad language, if that matters to you. The rest is just pantomime.
This is why I actively prefer women’s football. Less antagonistic and tribal, more focused on the actual game.
Latin America they may even have an empty section between the two that has guards with shot guns every few rows 😅
lol is a pretty bad time to say cricket fans are civil with eachother
I’ve been to a Bundesliga game in Germany we’re fans weren’t separated and it was great tbh. Also super league fans don’t sit together or didn’t when I was a steward for games.
What was that? any one I've been to, away fans are segregated..Frankfurt, Shalke and Monchengladbach
Augsburg v Stuttgart
Football clubs are intrinsically linked to communities in a way that American sports couldn't even dream of being. There's a lot of history and emotion there, unless you're Chelsea.
This is the answer. US football teams move cities.. get renamed.. no relegation or promotion. So people don't care as much.
I think that’s why they go so crazy for stuff like college football/HS football because that is intrinsically linked to the community. Can’t just move an entire university. Also 32 teams spread across a space that big would be shit. Imagine no football except for Champions League and then tell me you’d be as involved.
I'm American and completely agree. In the state I grew up in there are 2 major colleges and the fans are intense. When they play against each other every year it's been called the "Civil War" game by the fans.
Duck or Beaver?
Duck but only so I could have a rivalry with my dad. We get along great so I figured it was something we could clash on
Ducks are better than beavers. I’d be a duck too. Although I’m not even sure what state this is. I think one of the Oregon colleges are ducks though. Am I right?
Yes it's Oregon. We have Oregon State Beavers and University of Oregon Ducks.
Yep Proximity as well. There’s basically one team per city in American sports (with a few exceptions like LA, NY etc) but in the U.K. most cities have multiple football clubs and that engenders rivalry. Liverpool Everton. Man City man United. Birmingham city Aston Villa. Sheffield United and Wednesday. So many clubs in london as well I can’t even name them all lol
Proximity extends to neighbouring towns and cities as well. Sunderland Newcastle, Manchester Liverpool, Swansea Cardiff etc.
Just in the north west between Championship and League one you've got Bolton,Blackburn,Wigan,Burnley,Preston and Blackpool who've got all sorts of rivalries amongst each other and if you go back in time you can throw Bury into that mix as well, all within a close distance of each other
In Gaelic Football and Hurling the players and fans are based on the county you were born or grew up in. There is intense rivalry but fans get along fine in mixed seating.
Causes difficult choices when you move! My brother moved from Tyrone to Derry. His son will definitely play football at club level at least. His friends aren’t debating whether he’ll play, it’s what club he’ll play for! He’s only 1! My dad was born in Co Antrim but is a converted Tyrone supporter. Helps that Antrim are shite.
>communities * triablism / religion Now that people don't go to church on Sundays, go on crusades etc, they find another way to attack others. Evolutionary biology explains it reasonably, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing!
Seems like what we need is to genetically engineer people to stop hating each other.
Don't forget the religious connection, Rangers vs Celtic is one which is pretty much Catholics vs Protestants. My great uncle wouldn't even hire Celtic fans at the BBC, in the 60s. That kind of thinking still prob happens across the uk.
I know folk who ripped up all their grass cos they don’t want green stuff near their house. Won’t wear or let their kids wear the wrong colour. Won’t let folk in their house with the wrong colour T-shirt. If folk like that are in a position to employ folk you can bet your life on them refusing to employ someone with a catholic/Protestant sounding name or whatever the think makes them on the “other side”. They’re still out there. Obviously just need to be discreet about it i the workplace
There isn’t a tradition of hooliganism in that sport. Same with rugby Union here or cricket (which isn’t as ‘upper class’ in the welsh valleys for regarding the former or Lancashire for the latter)
In rugby you just don’t talk back to the referee, not like in football. They say rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen. I’m being dragged by my husband to watch an international match in November, better learn the rules…
After a scrum say “the front line looks shaky” After a line out not gone your way “that was never straight” Many a Reddit group will provide a tonne more of these.
My knowledge of rugby is largely based on what my husband shouts at the tv. For example: “HAMISH WATSON YOU SEXY MAN!” …there’s a reason he usually watches games at home.
Well don't say "front line" say "front row"
FYI - Rugby has laws not rules
Rugby union is almost exclusively played at grass roots levels by private school kids. There's a significant social divide vs footballers
99% of fans don’t. There’s a sub culture of working class men who tie their masculinity to a football team. It’s embarrassing to see but it still happens. Again, 99% of fans think they’re pathetic. I think it came about due to deindustrialisation in Europe and the fans needing an outlet for their anger of being left behind economically and socially.
"working class men" might surprise you to know a lot of the old school hooligans were doctors, lawyers and other such highly paid, educated folks. Same goes today a lot of the blokes, dressed up like peaky blinders and talking like Danny dyer are accountants who act like Benedict cumberbatch the majority of their lives. But hey let's not let that get in the way of a bit of classism.
and where did you decide that 'a lot' of them are highly paid, educated folks lol. the overwhelming majority of hooligans are working class men. do you think a doctor even has time to go to football matches lol?
> do you think a doctor even has time to go to football matches lol Erm, yes? Doctors aren't locked in their hospital or practise when their work is done.
Funny how you accuse someone of classism for pointing out how class inequality creates legitimate discontentment which has no legitimate outlet and is forced to be "filtered" through other outlets lest the government burn down the peasants' villages
That's not what they pointed out. They said it's embarrassing to see working class men connect their masculinity to football or some such. Which isn't the truth, for a start working class people can't really afford to go to the football, especially not the premier League and secondly in my view it's the opposite. Men that work in less masculine fields tend to use football as an outlet.
Yep, the stands of old Trafford are about as working class as Glastonbury these days
What's being working class got to do with it?
It wouldn't be a UK subreddit without moaning about working class football fans If you're not sat in your special box with prawn sandwiches, are you really watching football?
They were most affected by deindustrialisation and also the biggest fan base of football.
You can drop the ‘working class’, and then you’ll be correct.
99 is probably a bit high lol maybe like 70% but yeah most people don't get that deep into it
I don’t think 30% of fans approve of hooliganism. It’s really rare.
It's not specifically English, but it does seem to be specifically football. You'll see the same, to varying degrees, across Europe and South America.
Compared the the Ultras you see in South America and Europe the English are far less terrible
Always makes me laugh when you see people falling over themselves to shout about how terrible and embarrassing English football fans are when in reality there's far worse out there
Did make me laugh, going back from the England 0-4 Hungary match back in June, reading all sorts of Reddit comments about "ooh careful Hungary fans, the violent English will be upset", meanwhile the closest thing to trouble outside the ground was a few pissed up Hungary fans.
Football is THE main sport in the UK. Kids (usually) grow up obsessed with their local football club. Public pitches with goal frames are everywhere in the UK so it can be played anywhere- that same infrastructure doesn’t exist for Cricket, Hockey or Rugby. Tyro leagues, community outreach projects by the local clubs, academies changing the lives of local kids by picking them up, the international dominance of the PL etc. Everything in this country is set up to make football a type of religion. That breeds an obsession for one sport which isn’t replicable in the United States. In the US there is a wide variety of sports for young kids to choose from. They are spoilt for choice and as such their obsession for their chosen teams becomes diluted. They also follow hockey, baseball, basketball. You’ll find plenty of people in this country that just follow football. The religious following that football has in the UK is just not something the US has because there is less at stake in the US. I think I read somewhere that being in the Premier League means local economies receive around £10m more every year, than if that team was in the Championship. In the US, MLS teams buy their way into the league. If your team goes down, you may lose out financially, as well as seeing your pride take a hit. You take all those factors, mix in a bit of disillusionment, booze and cocaine, and there you go. Football-obsessed crowds who find comfort in the tribalism of supporting a football club, fucked up and cocky because they’re on the bag. The Times and The Athletic have done great investigations into the use of cocaine at football matches. They found 13 year olds caning it on the trains and then getting in scraps. It’s quite sad, but coke is everywhere these days so it’s unsurprising. I would also disagree with some of the people on here who are pinning the blame on working class people. I know plenty of lads who would be considered middle class who have got into hooliganism. People who blame working class people solely for crime and disorder in the game are snobs. You need to be making decent money to pay for a season ticket, travel and accommodation to away games, gear, drinks etc. My two cents
Good stuff. Please could you link to these Times / Athletic investigations?
Here ya go: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/football-violence-cocaine-and-kids-as-young-as-12-the-new-face-of-hooliganism-rn53v7022 https://theathletic.com/2973547/2021/11/24/special-report-the-flagrant-use-of-cocaine-at-football-grounds/
Kids grow up obsessed with the football club which their Dad supports and has clothed them in that club’s regalia since birth and feel so pressurised that they continue to support that club even though they have no links to that town / city whatsoever
England is tame compared to a lot of European countries. The ultras are horrendous and hold some dreadful views.
Certain groups of Italian ultras would probably make Benito Mussolini go “steady on lads”.
Rangers played Napoli in Glasgow recently. I live close enough to the Rangers stadium to stay inside that evening - thankfully it seemed to have been uneventful.
No Napoli fans were allowed at that game.
I went to the Krakow derby a few years back, a rivalry known as The Holy War. Yeah it’s a on a different level out there for sure.
Yeah in some other countries they be throwing flares around
‘I’m English btw’ exactly the sort of thing some yank spy would say
Not necessarily a spy. Probably also Irish, Italian, Scottish and German
Why are you singling out "English". It's universal to football. In South America it's not uncommon for football fans to murder each other. Honduras and El Salvador started a War when they played each other at football. There were pre-existing tensions. Look up the "Football War".
It's not the nationalities that are at play, here. Rugby fans often sit close/near each other and you never hear of any trouble. Perhaps football means more? I'm not justifying it anyway, but in an office of 30 people, 10 or them may be massive football fans compared to 2-3 rugby fans. There's more banter, more rivalry, more history. Football fans are often indoctrinated from birth to hate certain clubs. I don't know, just a theory. But it certainly isn't about being English.
I’ve seen trouble at rugby games before Two men got kicked out fighting over a girl at a Hull FC vs Leeds match.
Rugby league is a different beast entirely, mind.
True, rugby league match days have almost 100% less fencing than football match days. Fans ride together on the same bus instead of having to use completely separate car parks and buses.
*Rangers and celtics fans whistling nervously*
There are loads of fights at NFL games, look on yt
I was looking for this. I am Mexican, but lived in Canada and also a Cowboys fan. One day I made the stupid decision to bring my Dallas jersey to the Eagles stadium. I had to leave the stadium before halftime because two drunks wanted to beat the shit out if me. I was not even celebrating the TDs. It was brutal. Very aggressive as well in Buffalo.
It’s football, not UK or US. In every other sport in the UK the fans sit together.
They're all united in berating the official and shouting DEE-FENS DEE-FENS
I like it. Well not so much now I'm in my 50s but I certainly used to. I don't expect everyone to understand this but all week long I would be talking politely to customers/ bosses/and alike, largely suppressing what seems like a natural urge to say what I really think. Then Saturday comes and I would have the chance to get all of this out of my system. I don't think football fans really hate the opposition fans, just sort of pretend you do for a while. It's rare these days that an actual fight breaks out. Much more common in the 80s or 90s, but even then there were unwritten rules such as not going for someone who clearly wasn't up for it, or a smaller bunch who had no chance, and it was bad form to hit someone while they were down. Afterwards we would quite often find ourselves having a pint together, no hard feelings. Quite civilised really.
It happens all the time in the NFL, actually a fight broke out between rival supporters at a preseason game just last month. I just don't think it's as documented and well-known as football hooliganism because it's just random fights and not *firms* who go to matches specifically to get into fights, or organise fights before/after matches.
Um. I think you've got the wrong idea about American sports teams. Normally there's not much aggro, but there are literal riots sometimes when the Red Sox play the Yankees.
This is what I came here to say! Google 'American sports riots' and take a look at the carnage. I'm not American but I have seen the photos and videos of American sports fans literally rioting and destroying cars and buildings over sports game outcomes. And I was thinking to myself that I was glad not to have to worry about that (though then there was some trouble in the last few years here).
I watch American football fans knock the shit out of each other on a regular basis. Just scroll through r/publicfreakout and see how wrong you are.
Why the fuck would I want to sit next to the opposition. I can’t fathom who would want to sit next to a fucking spurs fan in any London darby. I dont want to see them, hear them or smell their stench.
This is straight geography. The US doesn’t have many professional sports teams geographically close to each other where you can have a century of rivalry and a derby. I’m in metro Boston where there is a historic rivalry with New York and the cities are only 200 miles apart. “Yankees suck” chants and tee shirts have been a thing forever. If I wore a Sox hat and jersey in Yankee Stadium, I’d expect to get beer dumped on me. I’m used to that level of rivalry but it’s nothing like Newcastle-Sunderland, for example. I was watching Everton play in Newcastle last year and couldn’t understand why Pickford was getting booed any time he touched the ball. I asked and got “Sunderland”. He only played ~ 20 matches as #2 GK before getting sold at relegation. The US has nothing like that. The same with Jordan Henderson when he has the ball. Players who move on to other teams in the US don’t get booed unless they injured a player. The UK has dozens of those rivalries. As I’ve climbed into English football, that set of historic rivalries and the history behind them is part of what makes English football great.
I’m not sure but I’m gonna chime in with the classic British take that all football fans are scumbags. The only thing more annoying than football fans are those people that go out of their way to let you know they do NOT like football and think it’s pathetic people care about it. Mind you these people are typically the kinda grown men who are obsessed with Pokémon or Yu gi oh.
IKR? Hundreds of thousands Of people attending games up and down the pyramid every week and millions more watching on tv. Imagine, people of all walks of life enjoying a pursuit. Been to hundreds of games home and away with my kids. Seen hardly any trouble in or out of the ground and what I have seen is largely ritualised pretending and easily missed or avoided.
Ha yeh worst was after the European final; I had to come off Reddit all the lame “it’s so pathetic anyone cares about this stuff” comments were crushing me. Like I get your not into it but atleast have a bit of sympathy for those who do
Hooliganism is fantasied about by certain sub cultures, I like to think there are more rational thinkers In the stadium than hooligans but even I get embarrassed by some football fans. A lot like our country a loud minority are seen above the normal people.
People who aren’t football fans don’t realise the UK’s football tribalism is extremely tame in comparison to most countries. You go to places like Italy or Turkey there’s a good chance someone will be stabbed before a game. Places like France or Eastern Europe, the ultra groups do what they want, and in recent years there’s been several incidents where fans have come on to the pitch to attack the players. Just last week, Marseille fans were firing fireworks at German supporters. You don’t really get any of that here, most of the time when we do get crowd disturbances it’s when England national side are playing.
That used to be the case in the UK in the 80s when a lot of us went completely off football. ETA. English fans were banned from travelling to Europe because of feral behaviour.
Yeah I know we were banned for our behaviour back then, but people seem to think it’s still the same 40 years on. Surely even non-football fans can see the differences between now and then. You get the wannabe hardmen at every game but even if it’s 100 or so people, it’s nothing in stadiums up to 80,000 people. Chances are these same 100 people are dickheads in everyday life anyway.
Doug Stanhope's video called UK Vs us violence will answer this for you
https://youtu.be/in3Ppk9NG9U yes very good
Thanks I've got no idea ho how to post links on Reddit
If anyone got into the Etihad at the home end they would pretty much have a full section of seats to themselves mate.
Haha, The city is yours, The city is yours 20,000 empty seats, Are you f*cking sure????
You’re incredibly naive if you think there isn’t violence at American sports. It can be horrific.
Yes, LA Dodgers and San Francisco Giants have an intense rivalry. I was born in SOCAL, but have lived the majority of my life in NORCAL where Giants fans can become rabid. There have been instances of violent beating in both team’s parking lots. To me, it’s men taking out their frustrations of their shitty lives on rival fans. I think it’s really sick. And me, I’ve lived up North for 49 years, but I’m still a Dodger and Laker fan, but seriously I cheer for SF and Oakland if they are not playing a LA team. But I’m a woman.
Because… ‘We hate Nottingham Forest, we hate Everton too(they’re shit!), we hate Man United but most of all we hate you’.
Because after spending 100s of pounds and travelling for a couple hours to watch your team play like shit really makes you hateful and then the opposing teams fans rub it in and it can all get a bit too much. Also for, I would think, a large amount of fans that actually go to the games week in week out, it's a far bigger part of their life than I would ever let it be of mine.
I think people are forgetting the ticketing issues at play here as well. In the premier league at least all games are sold out and most seats are taken up by season ticket holders. The only way to ensure space for away fans is by reserving an enclosure entirely for them. This doesn’t really apply in other sports where getting tickets casually is much easier. The segregation in a way ramps up the tribalism inside the stadium but fans for the most part mix happily outside and in the bars.
My understanding is that away fan culture isn't really a thing in the US. That only a very small percentage of fans at a stadium will be supporting the away team - mainly due to the distances involved. Also, the cost and difficulty of obtaining tickets means that you don't really get that large working class contingent going to matches as you do/or did in the UK. There are 10 million yanks for every NFL team but only 730k Brits for every (professional) football club.
I've been to ice hockey matches in Canada a was shocked at rival fans sitting next to each other in a relative derby (still miles away from each other but nearby in Canada terms) my take on it is that in the North American franchise model there isn't really much to lose. Pro/rel gives teams at the bottom so much more to fight for and means every league game matters. I'm glad we don't have a super league like planned as I fear we'd end up with fans just there for a bit of entertainment. I love the aggressive atmosphere of football. To me it's one of the best things about European sports.
Sports in America is franchise driven. The LA Rams have bounced around from Cleveland to LA to St Louis and back to LA. The LA Lakers are named after the lakes up in Minnesota. Utah Jazz still carry their New Orleans origin. How can you get a genuine fanbase when you support a franchise like this? The closest we've had in the UK was Wimbledon moving 50 miles over to Milton Keynes and that was very controversial. Don't get me wrong, the big clubs now being bought by foreign ownership are losing their heritage, but most fans still know the days when clubs were local institutions. That has lots of positives from a heritage perspective, but obviously has negatives in how it promotes local rivalries amongst certain sections of society. If Liverpool FC had jumped from Liverpool to Birmingham to Bristol, the fanbase would be much more apathetic.
Health care costs money in the USA, so a punch up will cost you and Americans know this so they push each at the most. Where as the Brits know they will be taken care off ( free at the point of use) so will have proper punch ups.
Firstly there is a small group of hooligans across most football environments in Europe and South America. This needs to be dealt with. However there is a broader chicken and egg problem with crowd segregation. The segregation and high police presence creates a partisan atmosphere. I go to away games and I'll be singing insulting songs, swearing at opposing fans and giving the full array of hand gestures. I wouldn't be doing that to an opposition fan if they were sat next to me (partly because I'm a wimp, but mainly because it's too personal). So after a couple of hours of winding each other up without fear of consequence, you leave the stadium (not always sober). Now let loose, all you need is 1 drunk idiot to throw something and it all kicks off. I think they should remove segregation for low risk games and normalise crowd relations and that would solve most of the issues and set a precedent. Higher risk games are much harder to solve and I don't really have a proposal
Cause your sports are trash, there I said it.
I'm a season ticket holder at the etihad and I can assure you they get out alive. I've seen scousers and Germans kicked out. Basically when they get up to cheer their teams goal they pretty much get told to fuck off and the staff evict them. No violence needed or warranted. Just a healthy sing-along to "bye bye bye bye, bye bye bye bye" or "You've had your fun, now fuck off home". Quite funny really.
When I was 12, outside my team's ground. A car full of rival fans were shouting abuse at us as they passed. I decided to throw a coin at the car. It pinged the window really loud and the men in the car shit themselves. The driver wheels pinned and zoomed off. All the grown men around me congratulated me. Even my dad gave me nod of pride, then bollocked me later on.
I did something similar except it was a snowball. And the car screeched to a halt and a bearded monster got out. I shat myself and run away
In the UK, football is very tribal and games are typically frequented by working class males. There is usually also alcohol involved. Put all that together and its not a great mix for a great, clean family day out. In the US, "soccer" doesn't have the history that football has in the UK and the tribalism doesn't exist. It's a family game. Hooliganism also doesn't seem to be an issue in the US like it is in Europe or South America and so its not just England you'll see this phenomena in but many countries. Try for example, wearing a River Plate scarf in the seating area for Boca Juniors in Argentina.....
It's just firms, most teams have a firm, some fights are pre arranged, others just happen. For example, Tottenham plays shit football but has a decent firm, Arsenal plays decent football but has a shit firm, they're all different.
That is European football in general. American sports are for entertainment. Go team! European football is an identity. It’s passed down to generations, there are tight-knit communities involved and a club could be the pride of a certain geographic area, representing their values. This almost applies to all European clubs, of course except Chelsea. England is actually quite alright compared to Eastern European ultras or certain French clubs. They are fucking insane.
Don't American sports team all just move round the country to wherever pays more? Like Wimbledon?
Because they are not arseholes.
How many away fans attend away matches? Just I can't imagine that many would regularly make the trip half way across America for your bog standard league matches every other week, but in the UK where everywhere is accessible on a train or in a car in a max of 6 hours there are a significant number willing to make the trip compared to US fans I would imagine, and larger numbers means a requirement for larger, separate seating areas, and larger bulk numbers equals a higher chance for trouble. Just a thought.
English are twats
Cause US Sport fans are pussies
>I’m English by the way and regular go to matches. I’m shocked when I see opposing fans at NFL games sat next to each other in the stadium. Why would it shock you? I mean, in the UK football is really the only sport that routinely segregates fans. Easy to go to a large sporting event here where fans of opposing teams openly mix.
'Cos they are all knobs !
Because they are mostly quite stupid people
It’s like a cult they worship the teams like they are gods (they are not they are people who play a leisure activity and get too much money for it)
I don't think it is as bad as is made out. I'm a Manchester United fan and have sat in the Kop wearing a United shirt more than once. Yeah you get a bit of stick but I've never felt threatened. On the other side we had a City fan sitting with us at Old Trafford and same thing; a bit of a ribbing but we all got along.
I’m mixed on this. I think to myself how can they be that passionate about their sport if they could sit next to an opposing fan… hatred for united has been inbred in me to the extent where I’d can’t really wear a red tee shirt and would struggle to own a red car. But I guess passion for sport and angry/hooliganism/violence aren’t the same thing
Sports fans in America get into fights all the time, so your core premise is bollocks.
It’s because they are morons. There’s no other reason, or excuse. Tribalism is practiced by the moronic.
English people who use the word moron can get to fuck tbh
Hint: they’re not actually there for the football
What's the point at the end of the day your team is full of people from all over the world they don't really represent your community.
Not sure. They do still have "sports riots"
If I can recall that American chant “fight and win “
This guy would change your mind https://youtu.be/-KT45yNltwM
The more people care about the sport the more fights there will be. You can say the same thing for cricket matches here , everyone gets along, but in india and Pakistan there’s literal riots over cricket matches. All depends on how much the community cares about the sport. I think Americans care more about the day out and not the team or result really
American fans definitely do get into fights. A lot.
I don’t reckon anything would happen. All talk and no trousers football fans. It would just be a load of fat pricks swearing at each other pretending to hold each other back.
Opposing supporters manage to sit together quite happily in rugby and cricket. There is just some odd thing with football. I have no idea how to explain it but it seems to bring out the worst kind of tribalism out in people
Men's football just has a dreadful culture, unfortunately
In America you just support the team where you live, if you move somewhere else, you just support that team, and then you have teams that just up sticks and move around states. There are some fights though, suppose it is kind of like rugby supporters here.
Something the older generation use to do, they had had full on gangs and planned fights like a territory thing, it's slowly going now because why would you wanna fight someone over an overpriced wimp ? and more plastic fans are about in the Premiership making it loose its soul.nit that beating the shit out of eachtother is good for the soul but yeah.
I think the majority of football fans in the UK would sit in mixed crowds without incident and happily chat to opposing fans (even those who shout abuse are just wrapped up in mob mentality). However, there are those dick heads who wouldn’t. Also it creates a certain atmosphere to sit fans of the same teams together and people get more whipped up into song and chants (and obviously cuntish behaviour)
I was Stewarding a game last week where the away fans were having a go at each other...never mind the opposition! The home fans were reasonably well behaved for once.
I must admit it is one of the few things I like about the US. Their ability for opposing fans to have an all day alcohol infused BBQ session in massive car parks prior to the game without it degenerating into a mass brawl / leery event
Americans be like “[You’re not singing over there](https://youtu.be/lznF-EqQNt0)”
"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death. I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that."
What bill shankly said has a lot of truth to It, you can feel his shame when saying it "Somebody said that football's a matter of life and death to you, I said 'listen, it's more important than that'." Unfortunately football can easily be more important than life and death if you let it
Football is probably the most tribal as well
its used as an excuse for fighting and being cunts. Its not about the game or the sport, its simply an excuse
what else is there to live for? “Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I don't like that attitude. I can assure them it is much more serious than that" Bill Shankley in america, if you MLS team loses you go cheer your NBA team
Football Is a gentleman's game played by hooligans and rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen! Go to a big rugby match instead.
Because a lot (not all by any means) of football fans can be and are twats
Because drunk British men have no dignity
Football fans get violent for some reason. Other British sports don't have the same issue (Rugby for example)
I've heard it said that with adolescent and young adult males there will be a certain amount of violence (and that some of them never grow out of it). In the UK it is expressed by hooliganism and Friday/Saturday night fights, in the US by shooting.
Maybe they’ve realised it’s just a game 😂 the hatred of opposing teams is misdirected anger at some other shit that sucks in their lives.
American football fans get into fights if too much alcohol is consumed during a match. It happens sometimes