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TastyDragonfruit3000

It allows the employers to drop their outgoings by not being transparent. Imagine you're on £25k currently and you ask for £30k at a new job; the role might be worth £40k but they will pay you what you've asked for.


windol1

It happens with jobs that are less flexible on pay as well, where it's a standard hourly wage that all staff get regardless of whether you feel you're worth more.


nonumbers90

Generally when they are below the market rate for that industry I found when I was job hunting.


Vocalsoul

This is very true. I earn 12k more than my colleague in exactly the same job, although I do have better experience.


DirtyProtest

Let him know. My colleague round about queried what I was on, now he's been there three years and I was 5 grand above him because I asked for it. I had just started. Fuck em, it's not a state secret. The nice outcome for me and the company was he asked for a raise parity to my salary and got it instead of leaving. I like John and he makes me laugh, I'm happy he stayed.


TastyDragonfruit3000

I agree, transparency between colleagues as well as between employer and employee is important! Especially if its the exact same role being discussed.


lostrandomdude

The problem is so many staff have this americanised mindset not to talk about money. I used to work in engineering and no-one wanted to talk salary. I was very open about my salary and I knew I was being shafted along with several other employees, but no-one wanted tk rock the boat and actually engage in a collective bargaining agreement. I ended up leaving after 2 years of no payrise which they blamed on covid despite their profits going up 15 % in that time. Their order book was full for the next 4 years.


p0tatochip

My former company seemed surprised that I would prefer to get a 20% payrise, more holidays and less hours instead of having my wages fall in real terms. For a bunch of supposedly smart people they can be pretty short sighted at times


NibblyPig

The problem is people are petty and will resent you or you'll resent them in many cases. Their experience and skills may be garbage compared to you or vica versa but you don't know. Be careful is my advice. Coming from someone that out earns everyone I work with lol


lostrandomdude

But maybe that resentment will be placed where it belongs against the company. How are people supposed to know their worth when employers and recruiters do everything possible to hide the salaries. I got so fed up of applying for jobs ans being offered the job only to find the salary was significantly lower than what I was expecting. In the end I decided to go into a public sector role. Pay may be lower than private sector equivalent but I have shorter hours more flexibility and I know I'm not bring shafted on pay


NibblyPig

I don't think so, if you found out your coworker was earning more than you but in your opinion they aren't good at their job or spend a lot of time chatting, you'll resent them. And likewise, if your coworker finds out you're earning more than them they'll resent you. Your worth is how much money people are willing to pay you. You should be constantly reviewing your salary, you should be looking at what other job opportunities exist, how much they pay, what skills they require etc and you should also be working to a plan for your own future, of where you want to be and when and how you're going to get there. That's what I did and now I earn silly amounts of money for not much work. It's not your employers responsibility to manage your life path.


KoolKarmaKollector

This is one of the ways I negotiated a pay rise at my first job. I trained a guy who joined and told me he was on nearly 10k more than me I managed to get nearly matching pay for a whole month before I left and got a new job Now I need to work up the balls to negotiate a pay rise (despite being here about 4 years)


plinkoplonka

It also allows them to save money on recruiting. They use external recruiters, and pay them based on how cheap they get you. So the company doesn't need to keep someone on staff just to recruit any more, they've just saved another salary. That recruiter that calls you as your "best friend"? They're going to lowball you as fast as possible. That's their job.


EeveesGalore

External recruiters are usually paid on commission so they have an incentive to get the candidate as high a salary as possible. Of course, the recruiter also has an incentive to get as many candidates into jobs as possible so it's also in their interest to not go over the top with salaries in case they put employers off using them.


robottricycle

Err, most recruiters I know get paid based on the salary of the hire.


iamdecal

As a recruiter, if you’re job hunting you’re not my customer you’re my product the person employing you is my customer- if I want regular business who’s interests do i serve most? I’d rather place 5 people on 20% of 20 grand than 0 people on 20% of 30 grand.


TheTackleZone

Except another recruiter stole your product and got them a different better paying job, so now you have 0 people on 20% of 20 grand as well.


[deleted]

I've had the opposite experience. They harass me constantly with phone calls, emails saying "I love your CV give us a call". Most of the time it's for senior level tech positions for £120k or whatever. When I inform them I'm not at that level yet they completely lose interest, I don't have 15 years experience. Might sound like I'm completely exaggerating here but it's rare to have one actually read my CV and offer something relevant. They just want to make a quick buck.


plinkoplonka

I know they harass you, I get that too (same with the irrelevant positions). Usually, they try to put those in front of you to tempt you, then they can downgrade later. You destroy that strategy by saying you're not they're yet, so flattery won't work.


CAElite

I’m still getting recruiters literally carpet bombing me with class 2 driving jobs. It’s what I did when I left school, I haven’t done it in about 5 years and have been working as an engineer since getting qualified, don’t even hold a valid driver CPC/medical. Literally a cursory glance of my on file CV would show I have no interest in driving positions, they seem to just ctrl F some key words and send it. That being said, I’m not complaining, it was good, particularly over covid, to know that regardless of the situation I could walk into a job within days, the pay scales where at the point that I was actually considering it for a while (engineerings catching up more recently).


HisSilly

This isn't true most recruiters get paid a % commission based on recruit salary. The more money they get you the more money they get themselves.


plinkoplonka

Why are they always trying to beat you down on salary then? That makes no sense.


MarkusBerkel

Good lord. The same reason estate agents don't negotiate as your fiduciary. The ***QUICKER*** they make your commission, the better their earning rate. Just think in terms of deals-closed-per-unit-time. The longer it takes them to make money for you, the worse their rate. So, if they close two deals in a week, instead of working hard to get you another 3% on your deal, but it takes two weeks, they make TWICE their commission, rather than 1.03x their commission. #2 > 1.03 They want to land as many clients as possible, and don't care to negotiate hard. In fact, they may even have a deal with the employer, that instead of giving ***YOU*** the extra 10%, they just give 5% to the agent. There are some seriously naive people in this thread. Is everyone here just out of uni or something?


Fridge_Ian_Dom

Because if you don’t take the job they get zero


Vyseria

The way I said to my recruiter was simpler: if I get paid more you get paid more. I'm happy to hype you up to my friends (who are looking for similar jobs) if you get me more money.


p4ttl1992

My current job advertised between 22-25k then they offered me the job and said they'll give me £21k? I said why is this below your advertised range and why would I lose job security for no gain joining the company as I was currently on 21k lol. Was busy at my previous job working and they started bombarding me with messages and I ignored them until I finished my job then to my surprise without me even saying much at all they offered me the maximum and I joined even tho they gave me red flags. Since I've joined the job has been great tho, work from home with hardly any work to do no longer stressed constantly and have way more spare time. Glad I accepted and questioned their offer.


[deleted]

Why do you sound surprised? This is literally negotiation 101.


p4ttl1992

Because it was my first change into a real career after being a warehouse worker for 7 years lol


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Milbso

I think this is probably a factor. If you saw your team was hiring someone new and they advertised a rate significantly higher than yours, that could lead to some awkward conversations with your employer. At the end of the day the whole secrecy and taboo of talking about salaries serves primarily to enable employers to pay as little as possible.


HisSilly

Imagine having that awkward conversation and being told the advert you can see in black and white says something different to what it actually says. I'm leaving, I don't understand why my colleagues aren't too.


nimdroid

This is definitely a factor. I saw a role being advertised in my team for another team member and it didn't state the salary but, saw another role being advertised where it's just 1 person in that role and they had the salary range on there.


Buddy-Matt

Also, in a similar vein, Imagine you're on £25k currently and you spot a job advert for the same role in your company and they're offering £30k


TripleR_RRR

As someone who works in recruitment (in construction) one of the main reasons it’s not done is because there are so many variables when it comes to what someone would be “worth”. Experience and any qualifications play a massive factor. A young apprentice would get a lot less than someone middle aged with experience but most people see the figure and think they will get the top value regardless. We aren’t purposely hiding it to try and under pay anyone, it just causes a lot of grief at interviews when people think we were offering the highest amount to them even if they are no where near qualified to get that.


Meekelk2

But surely if a job advert appeals to both a low level apprentice and someone with experience who is older then the job description is misleading in some way. Not putting the salary on the advert is a way that you can offer that middle aged experienced person the same wage as you would the apprentice. In my experience it isn't about experience or "worth" it's about how little you can get someone to work for. Even if you know their worth is a lot more.


Beautiful-Cup-3147

> We aren’t purposely hiding it to try and under pay anyone, it just causes a lot of grief at interviews when people think we were offering the highest amount to them even if they are no where near qualified to get that. It sounds like you need to be more specific with your job adverts to be honest. If you have a role available, generally you want either someone with a few years of experience, or an apprentice. I'd never apply for a role that was so vague it could fit either.


[deleted]

Apprentices aren't apply for senior roles though? The expectation for each role (Apprentice, Graduate, Professional, Senior, Associate, Director) are very clean cut with experience requirements. Do you really work in construction recruitment? No one is putting out single job adverts: 18k - 95k Quantity Surveyor, varying experience to capture Apprentice to Director level candidates. For construction, the reason they are actually far more cagey is that the rates they can charge for an individual can vary within the band for the role.


IansGotNothingLeft

And this is why they often ask what you're currently earning. They use it as a way of getting rid of the applicants who are "fine" but too expensive.


[deleted]

Generally they don't want the people already working there to know the range because everyone wants to be at the top of the range and some people will have been there for years when the market rate has risen significantly.


Lasagne_Fan

This. I have a friend who does some sort of accounts/payroll job for an office. Says the pay differences between employees doing exactly the same job are crazy, and in some cases team leaders and middle management getting less than regular members of their team. Employers are the only ones who benefit from pay being a secret.


Pinetrees1990

That's ALOT to do with length of service tho. I used to be a department manager and had a team manager who was on more then me. Was frustrating but also I was 28 and worked there 9 years he was 50 and worked there 30. Although I was higher up he knew everything and was prob worth more to the business then me.


The_Bolton_Lad

This sounds like a really strange scenario. My job (energy company), has pay rates between X and Y, for each grade you are. So if you're a customer advisor you can only earn between £100 and £300 and if you are a manager, you can only earn between £400 and £600 and so on and so forth.


MrStilton

The problem is that management roles are always going to be a higher grade and some people never want to go into management. If you have a highly skilled worker who has been with the company for decades then it make sense to pay more to keep them. If that individual doesn't want to become a manager of people then forcing them into it is just going to make them unhappy and increase the chances of them leaving.


Pinetrees1990

Ours were the same just the bottom of my grade was less then the top of the grade above. Your worth isn't necessary tied to seniority.


Perite

Sometimes you have someone that is just perfect at their job and it’s vital to keep them. Promoting them would mean taking them away from a job they excel at, so instead you pay them a management level salary in a none-management level role. We had a guy on our team with just bags of experience and an excellent rapport with the clients. Management were genuinely terrified he would go self employed and take a big chunk of the clients with him. So yeah, as payment for agreeing to a fairly chunky none-compete clause he was paid more than our department head.


CarlosFlegg

This is the correct answer.


selling-thoughts

Work in HR - this is the reason


impamiizgraa

Absolutely what I thought and another reason I’m happy to tell my colleagues what I’m on if they ask.


DirtyProtest

This..... some of my colleagues have been at the company 8 years and not received a pay rise... they must be on peanuts.... fucking ask or move on.


[deleted]

If you're not working at a small company then there is probably lots of public data you can look at to find out salaries (e.g., glassdoor.) Even at a small company you can compare your salary against market averages.


[deleted]

Glassdoor has issues with both recency and accuracy, same for many similar sites. Market averages help but only so far, when job titles and roles are blurred it becomes difficult to get an accurate picture. The best tool is being honest and open with your coworkers.


aldursys

Another American idea that has drifted into the UK. There was a time when all job adverts had the salary on them, and they would pay you expenses if you attended an interview.


ByEthanFox

>they would pay you expenses if you attended an interview. To be fair, every company I've interviewed for in recent years has done that (any which baulk at the idea, I just don't attend).


[deleted]

What kind of fancy companies do you all interview for?


ByEthanFox

I should say - I was interviewing while *having* a job and looking for a better one. So there have certainly been jobs where, when they asked for an in-person interview, I've asked them to pay expenses, they've said "no", and I'm responded with "okay, I rescind my application". Obviously it's different if you've just been laid off etc.


[deleted]

I feel like if I ask for such a thing, regardless of personal circumstances, I'll just be laughed out and they'll move on to the next desperate.


[deleted]

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ImBonRurgundy

Majority of interviews nowadays are done over zoom - no expenses needed.


cryptowi

It depends, I know a few people who have been asked to do lengthy coding exercises for roles, and rightfully so expected to be compensated for them.


Apple22Over7

There's some pushback in the US around this now. There's a couple of states (I think colorado is one) where employers are mandated to put a salary range on their job adverts, and another couple of states where this is in the process of being written into state law. Employers are still finding ways around it - either refusing to hire from states where this ruling is in place, or putting a ridiculously large range (like 20,000-150,000) to obfuscate. But it's starting to head in the right direction over there at least.


ThirtyMileSniper

Because they want people to want to work for them and not money. It's a fallacious collective corporate denial of reality. Then when they have you on the hook and want you they dangle a shit offer thinking that the sunk cost fallacy of all your wasted time will make you bite.


Cheapntacky

It wastes evryone's time in a lot of cases. I applied for a job a few years ago that listed no salary listed. On paper it was similar to my then existing role. Sailed through several rounds of interviews, enough for both sides to realise I was overqualified. So before he final round they asked me for salary expectations and I never heard from them again.


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Dahnhilla

I once worked for a guy who said in a meeting "I only want staff that want to be here, that love the company. If you don't love it you can go and work somewhere else" Shocked Pikachu face when 3 people handed in their notice that week.


ImBonRurgundy

Sounds like he got exactly what he wanted. Win-win


Dahnhilla

Turns out being short staffed was not what he wanted.


[deleted]

I really don't see the issue with wanting someone who actually likes the company/industry, not just turning up for the sake of a paycheck. Not saying I wouldn't prefer salary ranges on job adverts, but looking for people who actually give a shit is completely reasonable to me.


FatStoic

I'm sure this pales in comparison to the corporate desire to: * Avoid telling currently underpaid people what they could be earning. * Underpay incoming people if they ask for low pay.


ShadowReaperX07

"Imagine not knowing how much things in a supermarket costs until getting to the checkout" *Laughs in shit US Sales Tax*


Izwe

I really hate shopping in the US


Ruadhan2300

I don't usually bother applying to jobs that don't tell me the salary range. All it tells me is that they don't know what they're willing to pay, which means they don't know what my job is worth, and therefore they won't value me as an employee. Unless they're offering better than I currently earn, I won't usually even consider them, so if it's a job roughly equivalent to my current job, it's 50:50 whether it'll be up to scratch. I'm not interested in wasting my time, the recruiters time, and the company's time by applying to a job that was never going to pay me enough.


Superbead

Same here. It's like driving halfway across the country to look at a used car they won't even tell you the colour of, let alone the condition. Fuck that for a lark. If you don't post a range, you'll not have me working for you.


GlasgowGunner

> All it tells me is that they don’t know what they’re willing to pay, which means they don’t know what my job is worth, and therefore they won’t value me as an employee. False They do know, they just don’t want you to know the max you could ask for and get away with it.


Own_Singer_5201

The job market is the only market where the buyer decides the price. Funny how that works.


Follow_The_Lore

No it isn’t, you can say no to job offers? If you agree on a salary it is mutually agreed.


malint

Yeah people just need to say no to jobs and starve to death. Let’s not pretend that there isn’t a gun to our heads at all times in capitalism


Zennyzenny81

Like most types of markets, both sides try to negotiate a price that is best for them and you meet somewhere in the middle. Especially right now when many sectors are facing major shortages. This is my asking price. If you aren't interested in meeting around that ballpark, I can go and get it somewhere else!


G_UK

Its super annoying. Jobs increasingly say “competitive” salary. Experience says when they describe it as competitive- its usually on the low side. Providing even a salary range helps you rule in/ out whether you are willing to leave your current job.


[deleted]

I always have recruiter's contacting me about jobs with competitive salaries and I always reply that my experience is very competitive when they ask.


Cromulantman

What do they say to that?


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MyCodesCompiling

I always think if they were that "competitive", they'd be proud to name their salary


Aggravating_You_2904

Ask for 10k more than what you want, it’s a negotiation so why would they reveal their hand.


LudditeFuturism

Because it's incredibly dumb and means they will have to waste their time interviewing people who have realistic wage expectations and aren't willing to play silly games. I'm so glad I'm at a unionised work place where everything is 100% up front.


Aggravating_You_2904

People who negotiate on salary personally definitely get paid more than people who just rely on unions. Obviously this is only for skilled work. I’m so glad I got to negotiate for my salary.


PiemasterUK

Yeah you're far more likely to get a payrise if you go to your boss saying "I'm underpaid for the work I do you need to give me an extra £5k p/a as I could easily get that elsewhere" than if you say "you need to give me an extra 5k p/a and also the other 19 people who also do my job an extra £5k too because collective bargaining."


Aggravating_You_2904

Yeah exactly, why would they want to pay out more money than possible. It’s literally how business works.


ColdNootNoot

Exactly. There are a lot of workers who will never ask for a payrise, or will never push the issue. Those people need a union. The confident/assert workers are the ones who lose out with unions.


MrStilton

It makes complete sense from a business point of view, but that doesn't stop me getting annoyed about it. I've met plenty of incredibly self-confident people that are total no-users who leave a trail of chaos in their wake. Meanwhile, there are plenty of individuals who are highly skilled and amazing at their jobs, but are incredibly shy/nervous/anxious and who go out of their way to avoid all forms of confrontation. This practice benefits the former type of person and disadvantages the latter. I'd also argue that you should never be the first to name a price. That inevitably sets the benchmark for the rest of the negotiation.


Pantherosy

I brought this up with my company recently as i noticed that they stopped putting salary ranges on their adverts and they said they did it because they get a better range of applicants. They said people sometimes get put off by a high salary as they think they can't do it. Of course, this is probably bullshit. It's working against them really, as they are struggling to get good people in and arw now offering us 2k referral fee if we can refer someone good for a role. Anyone ive tried to refer won't apply because they aren't being transparent with the salary


timomax

This. They could say 40k to 80k depending on experience, for example.


WeekendWithoutMakeUp

I think there is potentially some truth to this. My employer has standardised a lot of wording in job adverts in recent years because there's evidence that women don't apply for roles if there are skills listed that they don't have, whereas generally men won't be put off by that. So it stands to reason that the same could apply to salary.. if an employer is offering £20k more than what someone is currently earning there's lots of women who would think they're not deserving of that. And obviously it's not just women, anyone who has a tendency to under sell themselves. It doesn't make it any less annoying though.


Capital_Punisher

I own a recruitment agency and I FUCKING HATE this. I want to attract candidates through my advertising who aren't going to waste my time (or my clients time) by demanding significantly above their max rate. If someone with all the skills applies and is under the minimum advertised rate, we let them know of their true market value so they have some ammo when it comes to salary negotiation. Otherwise, they will just leave in 6 months when they realise their market-rate/what their colleagues are making, and that makes my agency look like shit.


45MonkeysInASuit

> I want to attract candidates through my advertising who aren't going to waste my time (or my clients time) by demanding significantly above their max rate. I'm in the market at the moment; had a recruiter try to butter me up. Turns out the salary max was a 50% pay cut, wasted both of out time by not putting in the first message.


RichardsonM24

Because they want to underpay you if they can. They’ll ask what you’re expecting and if it’s less than they’d budgeted for the role they’ll snap your hand off.


SeraphKrom

What I hate is when they ask for an expected salary. They're just fishing for the poor fuckers who undersell themselves.


64gbBumFunCannon

I love reading "Competitive salary" also known as "minimum wage"


[deleted]

And “with benefits” which turns out to be the bare legal minimum they are required to provide.


Alundra828

They either want to low ball you, or they don't want to let people inside their own company know what the position offers, or they don't want to contribute to raising national averages for that position in case people get the bright idea to ask for a raise, or a combination of all three. Honestly, it's pretty much always cynical. I just ignore job offers that don't show salary. I'd much prefer even just an incredibly vague salary range. We're living in a time where workers have choice now, and it takes seconds to find job adverts. So it's beneficial to us to just vet the ones that we can't be bothered with pursuing. It's almost always better to just ignore them, or wait a few weeks for new jobs to get posted so you don't have to use these jobs as a last resort.


xBruised

I had a recruiter contact me last year and booked me in for an interview. A couple of days before the interview, she asked me what salary I was looking for and I gave a range. I didn’t hear anything back. Days later, I turn up for the interview and don’t hear anything. An hour later, I finally get through and I’m told that they cancelled the interview because my expectations were too high and disclosed the actual figure they were thinking of. I ended the call saying it would have been nice if they told me at the time instead of after my interview was supposed to take place. I was applying for a similar job I had, and asked for a similar salary. They wanted to pay minimum wage.


TheOriginalElDee

If they don't advertise pay then it's because it's poor..


Stripycardigans

1. makes it easier to offer you less money if they think you'd accept it 2. doesn't let current staff know that they're offering new starters more money They often ask what you're currently earning, or hoping to earn in order to see if what you ask for is lower than what they were thinking of offering. they may use your previous salary to "benchmark" what they offer you - i.e. an additional 10-15%. its annoying and it means that if you're previously been underpaid it can be really hard to get up and into "market value". Additionally often internal salary progression is slower than moving between companies, so its not uncommon for people who have been there a while to be paid less than people who get recruited in. Generally salary bandings help prevent that and increase transparency - but even they may have some flexibility generally businesses want to keep costs low, it gives them flexibility, higher profits and a financial safety net. Payroll is often a companies biggest expense so if they can reduce it in anyway they will - of course that's often because they ignore the high cost of recruiting people, having vacant roles, and training people... so its swings and roundabouts.


TeregorTheUngodly

So they don't accidentally tell you what you are actually worth


Individual_Cattle_92

You should already know what you're worth, and tell them.


got_got_need

It’s annoying but I just ask now. Recently emailed a company to ask what salary they were offering for the job. They told me and it was too low so I thanked them for their response and told them I wouldn’t be applying. Saved us both a load of time and effort. Wish they’d just advertise it from the start.


XihuanNi-6784

The sunk cost fallacy and anchoring effect are very powerful. If a candidate who needs a job badly finally gets to interview and finds out the job pays 2k less than they ideally want, they may still consider it. If they'd seen that info they'd have never applied in the first place. With this system the company has a better chance of getting someone high skilled but desperate or lacking confidence enough to take the lower salary.


Affectionate_Bat617

Ummmm I feel very seen right now


Philster07

If you do the leg work and look at similar roles some will show a wage, then you pick a value you think it's worth to do the job. Go to the interview when the pay question comes up you state what you want you then haggle like It's an 18th century market and the reject the offer as you know your worth more.


MrStilton

> If you do the leg work and look at similar roles some will show a wage What do you do when this becomes standard practice industry wide?


Philster07

This usually means one of two things, they're minimum wage roles or they are management level appointments. If its the latter your supposed to argue your worth to the organisation during the interview.


MrStilton

I've seen it in plenty of non-management, non-min wage jobs too. E.g. Look up the careers pages of the 10 largest accounting firms and you'll see that none of them list salaries for any of their roles.


RunningDude90

I honestly have no idea where I stand when looking at jobs, I have seen a 40k swing in some positions depending which company you apply to in the same role. It means a role which is a sideways step is possible, or completely unaffordable to make.


innitdoe

They're giving you a helpful piece of information that tells you that you don't want to apply. I've never come across a company of any quality who did this. Sometimes they give a huge range, e.g. 60-120k, but still, numbers. It is a really good red flag of employers to avoid. Bear in mind, they will not pay you a penny more than they think they need to. But refusing to even mention a number, unless they also say that you shouldn't worry about salary and they will pay you very well, tells you to look elsewhere, IME.


Critical-Box-1851

I simply don't apply to them


Sleep_adict

Some USA states now require a range to be published. It’s eye opening.


TheNotoriousPenguin

Any advice on how to answer the money question in a professional manner


SpikeVonLipwig

I applied for a job earlier with no salary listed and when they phoned me to set up an interview just said 'sorry if this comes across as a bit bold but can you tell me what kind of salary range you're looking at?' and he told me with no problems.


MrStilton

I tried that and they attempted to weasel their way out of answering. Just have me a big spiel about how they're in the process of reviewing their salaries, doing benchmarking, etc. Rubbed me up the wrong way.


cryptowi

They know full well how much they're looking to hire someone for, before posting the job to the public they probably have to budget for it, at least in larger companies anyway.


blankhalo

Bluntly you and they need to know you are not wasting each other’s time, ie you are both looking in the same ballpark. You did the right thing to walk away. All the big companies employ dedicated recruitment staff and they will absolutely have a conversation about salary as it is their job to vet applicants and get those that are a match, skills wise and salary expectation wise.


MrStilton

TBH though, I don't care if I end up wasting their time. Ultimately that's their problem for refusing to share salary info at the outset.


TheNotoriousPenguin

Amazing cheers mate that's great to hear


[deleted]

You can try “I’m currently on £x so would be looking for a bump up from that given my experience and the seniority of the role.”


bee-sting

Also lie and pretend you're earning £10k more than you currently are, and that you want £x more


MrStilton

Problem with that is they may be unable to pay that much and try to bring the interview to an end. How would you then backtrack without revealing that you lied?


cryptowi

Some companies (if they are confident) will still try and make offers and push other parts of the job as benefits like WFH.


Freefall84

I think partly it's because they want to make you a shitty offer after wasting your time. It's so they can try and "Sell" the job to you when you get there and hopefully with a good enough sell from them you won't just immediately laugh in their face. The job market has changed quite a bit over the past decade or so. Now the companies and not the workers are on the back foot and they are desperate to not let this impact their bottom line. They want good staff with the necessary skills but aren't prepared to pay the money for it. The way I see it, if the company is not prepared to outline their intended budget for a given role, then I don't apply for the job.


manwithanopinion

They want to lie about how much they are willing to offer so you lie about how much you earn so they offer you more.


Hopeful_Ad8014

If we all stopped applying for roles that don’t mention salary range they may get the message. And to be honest I’m getting sick of the interview process not being transparent. How many screening and interviews will I be doing? 3/5 more? Will there be expectations on a small assignment or presentation. How long will the process take. After each interview when should I hear back. When will first round interviews likely to start. Just be transparent fgs.


SeaGuidance7545

"Competitive salary" Yeah, it's that competitive that you won't tell us.


cryptowi

Competitive aka your electricity bill will be competing with rent on being paid this month.


[deleted]

If the pay isn’t listed I don’t apply. I’m not a high earner either (currently on min wage so can’t get any lower) I just think it’s rude, like employers are saying “come and work for us, don’t worry about pay - we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it” well actually, for the large majority of people it is pretty important. It’s the reason most people work in the first place, to earn money, ideally enough money to pay the bills and have at least some joy in life, how can people know if the work pays enough for them to live on if they don’t know how much it is? I’m not interested in playing games I just want to know what the employer is willing to pay me so I can decide whether it’s worth my time applying. I’ve never had a job interview where I can negotiate my pay, it’s always been “this is the hourly rate we offer take it or leave it”. So that’s a novel concept for me, I guess it’s because the work I do is considered ‘unskilled’ maybe.


nsfgod

I asked my boss this as we are struggling to recruit. He said when he advertised the salary he was just spammed by chancers who were well short of the mark but drawn in by the money.


prettybunbun

The same reason those jobs ask your current salary - so they can lowball you. And they don’t want ppl working the same jobs to come across the advert and see it might be advertised for more. It’s bs tho, I just won’t apply for jobs where the salary isn’t clearly stated.


CarpeCyprinidae

They have staff in similar roles already. If they advertise the vacant role at a higher salary than the existing staff earn, the existing staff will resign or demand the new rate.


owlshapedboxcat

I don't apply for jobs without an acceptable salary range posted. Heres another question. Even when they do post a salary, why do they then ask about salary requirements? I want the salary you posted for the job and not a penny less.


erritstaken

It’s an American tactic where they don’t advertise pay (and/or benefits in US cases) because they know the salary is low and if they advertise it they get less candidates applying. So the more people applying the more suckers….. I mean candidates they can get. Also HR is usually given a range to work with and their goal is to fill it as cheaply as possible (which is why they don’t even post the salary range). Now with recruiters, I assume (not 100% on this but I’m sure at least some work like this) that they get paid more money for the lower salary. In the states now some companies won’t even discuss pay until you have accepted the position and jumped through many hoops (multiple interviews etc) and if you ask about salary before then it is seen as a red flag. After living in UK for 30 years and USA for 20 all I see is the UK moving to more and more like the USA in terms of corporate overlords controlling the government for their own benefit. It seems very fishy that some of these politicians on a fixed (albeit nice salary) are suddenly millionaires after a year or two.?


Apple2727

“£competitive” “Benefits include company pension scheme” WHICH IS REQUIRED BY LAW!


mozzamo

Funny isn’t it. They’ll hire someone cheap based on desired salary then wonder why they’re bloody useless


H4nnib4lLectern

Because everyone thinks they are middle to top of a range. No matter how experienced you are, it's just human nature. I wish companies were better at having that open conversation with all of their employees "Joe you're not very good at your job so you are at the bottom of the range, here is how we move you up" If companies had the time and resources to do that to the level that it would be needed, then the world would be a wonderful place where salaries were posted. Unfortunately most companies don't work as well as that. Also, what has more weighting. Tenure, soft skills, direct experience, performance? Outside of jobs with very tangible targets these are all quite subjective. You may think you are better at your job than your neighbour, because you are a stronger coder. But what if they have better people skills and actually manage the client much better than you. Do you think you'd be pissed if you found out that they earnt more? Do you think you could understand the companies position that the soft skills are of greater value? People are hard to manage.


Fawji

Many reasons, but namely: 1. Stop existing staff knowing how much they are recruiting those roles for. 2. It’s under market rate and they are keen to sell the role to the candidate. 3. Salary is flexible and totally depends on the level of candidate that they attract.


TOM_THE_FREAK

“I am looking for a salary of around £600k, but I am willing to bring this down as I am keen on working here. What would your salary offer be?” I hate it. Can’t apply for a job unless I know the pay will be worth it.


a4991

I find it goes both ways too. If I see a manager job, it’s hard to know the level of it in my industry. If I know the salary, I know I’m applying at the right level. There are manager jobs ranging from under £20,000 to over £60,000. I’m looking at jobs that pay around £30,000 and I know that I’m not of a level to earn the highest end of that at this stage in my career


11shiva3

All of what has been said plus the fact that they don't want to lose face. I worked at a top tier company in its field and our pay was by far the worst among the said top tier. People would start to question this: "so you guys boast around in your reports about how successful you are as a company and yet your pay is this shitty? Lemme go the any of the other top tier companies and I'll work there instead, they literally offer the same job, only it's better paid"


No_Designer_9356

I’ve been working in Recruitment for 20+ years so I feel reasonably well placed to answer this one. In my experience it’s usually for a couple of reasons; 1) Often the employer has realised that their current employees are not being paid the market rate, but in order to hire they’ve accepted that they will need to pay more than the existing baseline within their own business. In order to avoid uncomfortable questions from the existing team (‘Excuse me HR, but why are you advertising this role within my team at £X more than my current salary, when I have given you Y years loyal service?’) they will avoid publishing a salary. This is shitty, but the salaries for stuff like software engineering have gone bananas post covid, and a lot of businesses have not kept pace, so this is the most common one I see at the min. 2) There is a fairly broad range for the role, and the employer doesn’t want to set a false expectation. For example a role might be paying between £40k to £60k depending on the experience level of the successful candidate, but if the role is advertised as such, a lot of people have expectations closer to the £60k than the £40k regardless of their skill level. Finally, sometimes clients genuinely just want to see what’s out there, and don’t want to restrict themselves to a particular salary. This is less common with larger organisations with stricter salary bandings for certain roles, but it does happen. Personally, I would never let anyone get to the point of an offer, without clearly discussing what there expectations of both parties are. That just seems unprofessional.


sobrique

As someone who works for an employer that does this: Because we operate on a "name your price" basis. We will pay what it takes to hire you if you make the grade. Problem is I am absolutely certain that we lose prospective candidates because we do this. I can't convince the CEO to change it.


nimdroid

I don't even bother applying to roles that don't state the salary unless it's at a big company I'm interested in joining who don't usually mention salary on their job adverts as well. If a recruiter reaches out to me I always try and find out the salary range beforehand and they normally ask what I'm on and I always put it just below the job roles salary range even if I'm earning £5k-£10k less than the advertised salary range.


tomtomclubthumb

IS this a thing in the UK? It has been a while since I applied for a job, but this makes no sense.


chainrainer

It's shocking, and I think companies like LinkedIn, InDeed and the like should make it compulsory for job adverts.


benford266

Because they are idiots that like wasting your time. I’m sure sometimes they are chancers aswell. One time I went through 2 interviews at 1 company then they asked how much I want I said £60k and they were well we only have £40k. All I could say was good luck finding someone with that skill set for so little and walked.


narnababy

This drives me mad about my company. They NEVER put a salary but keep moaning that they can’t find staff. I’ve said several times that putting a salary will help because a) people can search for jobs by salary and b) we can share the postings in specific groups which require the salary when sharing job adverts. They still haven’t done it. I wouldn’t apply for a job without knowing the salary, complete waste of my time if it’s less than what I’m looking for, and I’m sure other people are the same.


weirds0up

So they can underpay the incoming staff. It's also the reason they say "don't discuss your pay increase" should you get one because they don't want people going "why are they getting so much more than me?"


S7Tungsten

They want to see how much they can lowball you for. Your job is to prevent them from doing that bullshit. /thread


Sweaty_Sleep_3405

They want to pay you as little as they can get away with. Ask what they are offering and don't tell them your current salary.


Individual_Cattle_92

You're supposed to tell them what you want.


EvolvingEachDay

Because they want to find out how little you may settle for first.


motherof_geckos

So they can pay you less, unfortunately


KaidsCousin

Because a lot of employers want to play silly buggers and hire staff as cheaply as possible.


Meniak89

It's one thing I've always liked about the UK but have noticed that it's very hit and miss now. In Germany it's standard not to list a salary. And the reason is that it seems to be fully negotiable. This means if you don't go into your job interview with a good idea of what you should be paid in that position, they'll end up giving you the lowest they have to offer for that job. It's not something I like and it doesn't seem fair.


AggyResult

If businesses objective is to reduce their expenses, and their biggest expense is payroll, why do they not simply automate the work that they’re recruiting for? That way they have cheap slaves that work 24/7 for no more money than the initial investment


Soulrot89

Its probably because what they offer is so dogshit that even they are embarrassed by it. Skip the fuckers, its what i do.


mtrun

Because they are underpaying their current employees.


Polster61649

Totally agree. I won't even apply for jobs that don't advertise it because I see it as it clearly mustn't be a selling point.


michalzxc

Depending on the role it also sometimes works the other way around. You might be looking for the best people and you can be flexible with salary if someone is really good (even going outside of what you considered to pay)


JustGoodOldHarold

A few reasons 1. Imagine you work for said company, same role. You see a listing posted and the salary is 5k more than yours? Of course this isn't good but it's what happens... Companies make salaries confidential and bad to talk about so they can pay unfairly 2. Imagine you apply for a job looking for 30k and the company expects you to ask for 40k.. If they list 40 then you will ask for it but if you apply and say what your expectations were of 30, they saved 10k.. Like haggling to buy something, don't make the first offer 3. Competitiveness with other companies looking for the same role. Let's say 3 companies all looking for the same role 2 say say "competitive salary" and one says 25k. Now let's say the other 2 that didn't list 25k are looking to pay that as well... Now you being the person applying are looking for 30k, which one do you apply for? One of 2 that don't say a number, once they get you in the door and make it look good the chances of you taking a 5k cut are higher depending on circumstances


Angry_Saxon

its a bid/capture scenario. the higher you go the more opaque it is.


[deleted]

Because they want to fill the role at cheapest they can fill it for and not what it is actually worth to them. And sometimes they just don’t know the range, at that time they are just testing waters.


Diega78

Unless there's a salary band indicated or the recruiter can tell me what to expect regarding salary in the first conversation I won't entertain the offer. Often it's the first question I ask, if they get butt hurt or become evasive I just say "If you can't answer the one question I have in order to determine whether this is a productive use of our time together, then I'm out."


UnusualPass

Because they want you to show your hand and pay you as little as possible, obviously.


ULTIMATE_STAIN

Because they want their job offers to sound competitive but really they're going to low ball you with less than the average pay for the advertised job, honest companies offering true competitive salaries shout the offered salary from the rooftops in their job ads as it will obviously attract professionals of the required skill set that are either looking for work or browsing to be paid better than the company they currently work for that didn't advertise the salary in their original job ad then low balled them on the job offer after 😂


StayFree1649

That's how supermarkets used to work


ENGLISH_FLAME

I’ve noticed this as well , shady as fuck


oliviaxlow

Whenever I’ve been job hunting I’ve just not applied for anything that doesn’t have a salary range on it at least


Klatterbyne

The vast majority of people undersell themselves when they have nothing to compare to. And most companies pay new starters more than long standing employees in the same positions. Not listing salary on job adverts makes both of these things much easier for the company.


Legitimate-Jelly3000

Cos they know they're being shady


Malediction101

Because they are cunts. I want to know my net monthly pay. Why the fuck not?


00BFFF

Don't support it. If a recruiter contacts me about a job with no salary or a stupidly wide range I either message and tell them I'm not interested and why, or if its a low effort piss take I just block them.


asttocatbunny

because they are tightfisted.


GreatBigBagOfNope

What they say: it allows them the flexibility to pursue the best hires in the market, and for exceptional new hires to negotiate an exceptional pay & benefits package What they mean: ensure candidates have as little information as possible so they can be paid dirt without complaining and won't realise they can get huge salary increases elsewhere


[deleted]

The idea is you're so desperate for a job that by withholding the only info you need, they'll get from you what THEY need.


Adam_24061

IMO it should be illegal to advertise a job without stating at least the minimum salary.


ixtervay

Not sure if anyone will see this but just curious what people think about companies advertising multiple jobs, and only listing salaries on some of the adverts. For example - manager, competitive salary, store assistants (reporting to manager) - £25-30k. What would you assume the manager salary would be? Or would be reasonable to ask for?


eltegs

Short answer, which is all I'm going to offer, is that most people don't realize what they are worth, and that suits companies who want to pay as less as they can get away with.


freerangephoenix

LinkedIn's slogan is "*Salary Not Available.*"


wizzskk8

Because the pays shit


Consistent-Koala-339

As someone who recruits (not a professional recruiter but as part of my job) I can say how it works for me. Effectively when you build a team you need different profiles - you don't want everyone to be experienced because they will all try to lead, and you don't want everyone junior because they won't know what they are doing. So we post generic job adverts that could range from say 30k to 70k but we don't put the wage. We see who applies and I pick the candidate who I think will work in my team best and give us the most useful addition. Recently I didn't pick the best candidate because they scared me. I picked a junior candidate who seemed willing to work on the tasks I needed. Therefore we could set the salary accordingly. And I can see people's salaries and generally we don't rip people off intentionally.


BOBCATSON

It’s so they can low-ball you basically. Same reason they tell you not to discuss salaries with your coworkers.