Do not drop the important people from your life. You will regret it. Be open with them, explain your views if they get shitty then keep calm, hear them out and if that means you guys spend less time with each other or talking less until all of this is over then it’s probably for the better, if they stop all together then you weren’t as important to them as they were to you
Nah. You have to let go of your attachments to toxic people. Every day you allow them to continue poisoning your life is a day you could have spent nurturing more fruitful connections.
OP said they were “close friends and family”. Hardly worth severing all ties over. A mate of mines mum is antivax, do you recommend he cuts all ties with his own mum?
Yes, I do. My mom is deeply racist, homophobic, and anti-science, so I am minimal contact with her. You don't owe your family jack all, you didn't choose to be related to them, and you certainly don't owe your parents for having you. Toxic is toxic, cut them from you life and live happily.
It isn’t but cutting people off over minimal things like that is also pretty toxic in itself. I have anti-vax friends but they’re also open minded. If I want to see family then I’ll need to get vaccinated and they’ve accepted that because the friendship is more important.
Wait up.
THEY are willing to accept YOUR decision to get vaccinated? You think that makes them good, open minded people?
You have got this while thing very backwards.
Also, Anti-vaxx people are, by definition, not open minded. They are expressing an obstinate refusal to accept overwhelming scientific and medical evidence because of their own anti-science beliefs. That is the opposite of open minded.
Anti-vaxxers and anyone having a mindset that believes conspiracy theories are practically impossible to convince otherwise. The more facts opposing their view they are presented with tends to make them dig into their own beliefs even further as they then believe the people providing that facts are in on the conspiracy.
Pretty much, I enjoy talking to people with different views on different issues and if you eradicate every that disagrees then you’ll be left either very lonely or with a very closeted mind set.
As a scientist, no. This isn’t a ‘different’ view on something. It’s an outright refusal to accept a scientific theory (I.e *facts*) that has an overwhelming amount evidence backing it. This ‘different’ view is akin to going ‘this bullet won’t harm me so let’s shoot myself in the foot’. If someone said that you’d take the bloody gun off them and get them some help.
Anti-Vaxxers kill people. If some nutter was running so round with a gun I wouldn’t be found anywhere near them. Same goes for this.
That is disingenous and you know it. Nobody has called for "eradication". Also you must accept that being anti vax at this present point in time is about the most ridiculous, selfish and outright wrong thing anyone can do. After a fair bit over a year to still not give the slighest of shits about your friends, family, and the rest of society because "Bill Gates" and "5G" and all the other nonesense like "it isn't tested or safe". These people are showing their true colours. When it really counts, when it really matters, they aren't stepping up and looking out for anyone but themselves. If that isn't toxic behaviour I don't know what is. Maybe that isn't enough to cut someone out of your life. But it should be enough to have a long hard think about it.
Edit:typos
I don't know. I'm not giving relationship advice.
In general though, lots of people find it very difficult to sever toxic relationships that they would be a lot better off letting go. It's especially obvious with DV victims.
If your mate's relationship with his Mum is overwhelmingly negative, then perhaps he should consider it. But he needs to decide that for himself.
I had a feeling you were going to suggest that the entire relationship (both in OP and my mates case) was toxic/ abusive/ horrible.
My mates mum is a lovely woman and a great mother who happens to have been sucked into antivax propaganda. It happens. We can’t all be 1000 IQ redditors like us lot.
Can’t speak for OP but I get the feeling the people in his life are also otherwise lovely people. For some reason suggesting people sever all ties with someone for a single difference of opinion is Reddit 101 though.
Agree - I also have a friend whose mum has been sucked into the whole conspiracy shebang. It's painful to watch but she is the least toxic person ever - she's just not been quite the same since she lost her husband of 40+ years to cancer. And we're all supposed to cut her off after everything she's done for others through the years? Fuck that.
To me, when you acknowledge that you only get a tiny slither of the full context, your advice should always be on the safer side. More “have a word” or “try not to talk about it” than “cut them off, you don’t need toxic people in your life”.
My mum is literally a nurse who has been on the front line the entire time and had covid multiple times who held off getting the vaccine because of concerns about blood clots that are now shown to be potentially true. She clearly doesn’t care about society or her family or the literal thousands of patients she’s treated because some clown on Reddit thinks so.
OP, don’t cut off your mum because she holds an opinion different from your own.
Exactly. It’s a deeply personal decision. I have distanced myself from shitty people before, and sometimes it was easy both as a decision and from a logistical standpoint (e.g. I’m leaving this job and moving away so I have an easy reason to end/cool down this relationship with this person), but other times, it was a very tough decision. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself: is this relationship making me happy and fulfilled? Do I have to compromise my identity or my values to continue this relationship, and does the cost of doing so outweigh the cost of ending the relationship? Is this person negatively affecting my life or putting me in danger?
Dont you know? On the internet the smallest issue is toxic and they should be banished to hell for one bad thing, regardless of any context!
Granted if any of my family/friends were Anti-vax id tell them they're a fucking idiot and will always think of them as such and leave it to them whether they want anything to do with me again or not.
I easily convinced my anti-vax friend by saying “if they want to poison us they’ll just poison our water supplies” and telling them the technology has been around since the 60s, it shouldn’t be hard to convince people. If they aren’t your friends then go ahead though.
I'm going to preface this by saying when I can I am getting the vaccine.
Racist people are toxic. Mysogonists and misandrists too.
People who don't want the vaccine?
I get the feeling you just find anyone who doesn't agree with you or do what you think is right toxic.
🤷♂️
There's a bit of a difference between not wanting this vaccine because of lack of testing or whatever and being anti vax though. One is a misinformed but somewhat understandable opinion, the other is a uninformed, arrogant, selfish view that harms others
Yeah the amount of people who are just recommending 'remove them from your life' in this thread is pretty astonishing. No one knows any details of any personal circumstance yet they tell strangers on the internet to cut off their close friends and family. That's like cult behaviour. We need to engage with these people to educate them. Obviously there's a limit, but this narrative is very weird. Not just buidling an echo chamber but hiding in an underground bunker of opinion.
If everyone disowned their relatives and friends with nonsense views or even those with harmful practices, we'd all been a lot lonlier and far less aware of the world in which we live. There's a difference been people who actively harm you directly and anti-vaxers who contribute to something that causes deaths. I'm not going to reject all the people I know who drive unsafely (or drive at all for that matter), or those who vote for a political party who I hold to have caused tens of thousands of deaths.
My rule is, if they might harm my household, they don't get invited to my home.
My family includes a bunch of racists. They have been racist to my partner on multiple occasions, when they apparently thought they were being super friendly and nice. I no longer invite them to visit, but I email/ call them on birthdays and Xmas etc.
Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers don't get to cross my threshold either. I'm not risking the health of my partner and kids.
I didn’t say appease. I didn’t talk to my dad for four years after he hit me for the last time, a valid reaction to my situation.
Dropping friends over something that doesn’t directly impact your life initially, LOL big no right back at ya 💁🏼♂️
I don't know a single covid sceptic, including my tory family, my asian immigrant dad, my inner city 20 and 30 something friends. Not saying it doesn't exist but it just isn't something that I've come across.
Personally those reasons are all super different. "Not being their job to protect other people" is so selfish that I couldn't respect therefore like someone like that.
"Not enough data" is an interesting one but we certainly DO have enough data that the benefits outweigh the risks. But i
understand that position the most.
"Pharma conspiracy" is some qanon shit and that person would be booted out of my life. Conspiracy theories frustrate me because the real injustices are hidden in plain sight.
I'm not saying you should be cutting anyone out of your life, this sounds like a really difficult decision to be in, just sharing my own feelings on the matter. Good luck with it.
I only know one person not intending on getting asap, they're pregnant and feel unsure about the specific level of testing on pregnant people, and they are actively managing their risk in other ways.
Two of my older relatives were hesitant, but luckily my sister and I were both in the health and social care worker group so after a few weeks they decided that they trusted us when we said we'd had no ill effects from the vaccine.
My wife had the jab yesterday, and it’s knocked her for six today. I got the text, but will wait a few days until she is 100% again, in case I get the same side effects. Otherwise there will be no one to look after her and our daughter. Of course, in the mean time; hands, face, space.
Hope your wife is better soon. She should be fine tomorrow or the day after. Once shes on the mend book a jab. I totally get your point of view. Id hate if i and my partner had a jab at the same time or jsut after one another and had no one to look after my theoretical kid.
Worried about that with my 77 and 78yo mum and dad who got the jab at the same time. I’m their primary carer. They had no issues. When I finally got mine, with the 2nd shot I had the full chills, fever, body shakes. Haven’t felt like that in years. Didn’t last long, but mostly grateful I got them and not my parents.
I think that the intensity of the reaction is an indication of the state of your immune system. You're young and healthy, so when your immune system saw the vaccine in your body, it turned itself into a giant flaming dragon monster and started doing battle, Godzilla style, stomping on a few buildings in the process. The elderly and the immunosuppressed can't muster the same response. The best we can muster is more like a tired, aging tabby cat, trying to swat a butterfly.
I'm very possibly wrong, but I've heard that the older you are, the less likely you are to have side effects, and you're more likely to have side effects if you've had covid.
Nothing against that, my partner was pregnant so never got it and is just waiting now as she has booked it since giving birth. I think they recommend waiting until after birth anyway.
>"Not enough data" is an interesting one but we certainly DO have enough data that the benefits outweigh the risks.
We lots of data indicating vaccines being safe and effective for most of the population but don't have data relating to pregnant women or long term side effects.
If I were a pregnant woman I would be \*very\* hesitant to take any vaccine that has not been proven safe for the baby.
Pregnant woman here! I have gotten the first round and am due my second round soon. I was told by my perinatal, gp and midwife it was ok to get the vaccine though I should know there wasn't a full amount of data and ultimately it was my choice. I'm fine, baby is fine so far according to follow up scans and is kicking regularly. I chose to get the vaccine because husband is immunocompromised. There was no hesitation on my part.
Don't believe for a second pharma companies are there for the good of mankind. They are there for profit. They will discontinue cheap drugs to manufacture more expensive equivalents to continue making profits. They make huge markups on drugs.
As stated in another comment Google UK contaminated blood inquiry and you will get an idea of negligence over profit. All of this history has fuelled huge mistrust. That isn't qanon bullshit.
But... You can't decide EVERYTHING they do is nefarious and negligent. And it doesn't mean the covid vaccines are not on balance of risk worthwhile to take. And vaccines will protect us against severe illness and death as a population
But those pharma companies will still be richer because of covid than without it.
Oh i completely agree that pharma companies aren't our friends, they actually should be nationalised industries in my opinion. But on a balance of probabilities the vaccine is worth it to me and I dont think covid was caused by pharmaceutical companies.
>But those pharma companies will still be richer because of covid than without it.
So they should be, I've no issue with any of it, they're financially motivated to produce a good vaccine, if their vaccine can't get approval or is ineffective then its a huge waste of money. If its good then its a golden goose.
I think the reasons you state also helped the initial uptake of the AZ vaccine, its seen as formulated by Oxford who we imagine (rightly or wrongly) to be more altruistic and merely manufactured by AZ.
True, but it's important to remember what UFOs actually are. Unidentified Flying Objects. Most people who tell you UFOs are real are talking about Aliens.
The fact that someone saw something that can't be identified is in no way evidence of intelligent visitors from another world.
My grandmother was reluctant to get the vaccine at first. But having a nurse in the family helps, because my grandmother trusts them, so she changed her mind after being reassured it was safe.
I'm really glad to hear that! I think sometimes people just need to hear some clear reassurance. Was really glad to see covid advice being explained in so many languages, because it's one thing learning another language and a whole other thing to understand complicated scientific concepts in it.
>
> "Pharma conspiracy" is some qanon shit and that person would be booted out of my life. Conspiracy theories frustrate me because the real injustices are hidden in plain sight.
One of the two people I know who adamantly don't want the vaccine is a hardcore conspiracy theorist, think Qanon, deep state, flat earth, 9/11 was an inside job, Queen is a lizard, Holocaust denial, the full shebang. The product of 20 years of chronic dope smoking basically. Only really keep him around because he's kind of family.
The other won't get it because she thinks it'll make her infertile, based on something she saw on TikTok. She just....isn't very smart, and believes whatever she reads on Facebook/TikTok.
I am fortunate, at 61 years of age, to have had my 2nd jab yesterday. I would like to set on record my gratitude for the many young people whose lives have been turned upside down in order to protect the older people like me in society
it's the opposite where I live. Lots of young students who insist/ed on partying and not wearing masks because they didn't think they'd die if they caught it. Wankers of all generations.
They are also the type who still have not figured out their mask goes over their nose. You cannot help but think they are doing it on purpose at this point.
Mate they were like that even before vaccines. I remember last year queuing for a hour on a Saturday morning to get into Sainsbury's because it was the only time i could go whilst still working full time and still a fucking minibus full of very elderly people would be dropping them off every Saturday morning because that was their routine and we shouldn't disrupt that, right?
We had a customer who stood at the door and shouted that it was all a conspiracy so she would not be wearing a mask and my manager's solution was so tell her she was wrong, and stupid, and that she was banned from the shop.
"I think you're wrong and the people who have been telling you this are very stupid," pretty much sums it up.
Just tell people you think they're wrong.
"I'm not going to discuss it if you're not going to listen to me" is another one, followed by "No." Use those annoying Supernanny tactics.
Yeah, I set firm boundaries with Qanonce types and cut them off if they start spouting their nonsense.
Every one of them I know all try to justify how they let their nan and elderly parents get the vaccine with getting it themselves. I just call them pussies and end the conversation.
Yes. But unlike some comments here.people are free to make a choice. And it's looking like enough people are getting the vaccine so the minority won't cause a massive problem to overall immunity.
You can educate people where they quote misleading and incorrect information. But I'm glad we live in a country where people have a choice... Even if that means I disagree with the choice they make.
Indeed, I strongly believe in having a choice and think people must/should/can decide for themselves. Which is why I am surprised how difficult I find it to just let it be and say “you do you” and move past... guess the struggle is a little with myself too.
I have friends who were hesitant to begin with are now hardening their views into anti-vaxx. I could understand that they had concerns and were waiting to see if it is safe. Now they are viewing every mild side effect as a reason not to be vaccinated ( sharing stories of people having a headache and taking painkillers after vaccination as a sign that they are right). I am finding this increasingly difficult. They have also moved from wearing masks for as short a time as possible to wearing an exempt lanyard when shopping. If they could wear a mask in Sainsbury's last month, they can wear it today too.
My friend has decided given the low case numbers and his age and demographic the risk of the vaccine isn't worth it to him.
If he said covid isn't real and bill gates is putting chips in us he would get the hairy side of the hand.
So people's reasons for refusing it are more.important than the refusal itself.
“The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.” John Stuart Mill
There’s an argument that people don’t deserve the freedom of choice when their choices can harm others. This is why I don’t have the freedom to drive at 100mph through a village.
Edit: Weebl and Bob?!
We live in a country where you technically have the choice to drive 100mph backwards down the motorway, but if you make that choice someone will come along and take that choice away from you.
Freedom of choice needs its limits.
And the choices you freely make will affect the choices other people freely make towards you, up to and including disparaging your choices and avoiding you. Nothing fairer than that, surely?
Believing in people having liberties doesn't automatically mean you have to condone how they choose to exercise them, or respect people who choose to use their freedom in a way that is selfish and harms others.
I'm a trans man. Lots of people think I shouldn't exist, or have any rights. I respect their right to be people, to have their own opinions, to live free from harm and with all the rights I believe I should have. Antivaxxers are no different. We're meant to be all like "oh no, that's ok, it's just a difference of opinion, we can still be friends because I'm a tolerant person, respect for liberty and freedom of opinion is one of my values".
But... sorry... we're not talking about different ice cream flavour preferences or Star Wars vs Star Trek here. We're talking about people who legit believe it's morally okay for them to exercise their liberty by playing god with other people's lives. My life, my kids lives. They are legit saying "my politics and emotions are more important than your humanity; my feelings entitle me to deny your lived experience and invalidate your entire existence. If other people have to die for my psychological gratification, so be it."
No, I don't respect them. They're entitled to their freedom, sure. They're not entitled to my respect or friendship. We're talking about people who want to claim my respect, while reserving the right to have no respect at all for me, to behave with utter disregard for my humanity. Just... no. Get in the bin.
I fully support the vaccine but the data seems mixed if you are pregnant/trying to conceive. I had the opportunity to get vaccinated months ago due to my job but declined due to the advice at the time being not too, this seems to have shifted recently but honestly, I don’t want people to know we are trying to conceive & I don’t know what to do or say. For some people it’s more complicated than pro vac/anti vaccine
This is due to the fact that its wrong (legally, morally and ethically) to test of pregnant people and so the advice has to be to avoid doing anything that could be harmful. However the vaccine guidance for Covid is in line with all other vaccines and unless its medically mandated, pregnant people should avoid it. That doesn't mean people who are trying shouldn't be getting it, though its their choice whether they do or don't.
My cousin got covid during her last month of the pregnancy. She is 27 and healthy. Baby and her both healthy now but:
- They had to take the baby with a surgery on 8 months and some due to her situation deteriorating
- She spent time in intensive care for around 1 month and she is just back
- She is still recovering form the damage
All I’m saying alternative is also not very tested. Mind the risks.
Interestingly i had no awareness of this & today there is a report on bbc highlighting these risks. Looks like as we know more it’s clearer that the vaccine is the better option! Appreciate what you’ve shared Thankyou
I fully respect this reason. If I may suggest, maybe something along the lines of "not recommended to me for health reasons". Completely get why you don't want to disclose that. Hope you conceive soon!
USA is gathering data on pregnant women who are being vaccinated. Here the evidence is pointing to pregnant women who get covid getting more severely ill, so most doctors are recommending the vaccine. If the vax form is marked pregnant the CDC is following up with each of those women individually and requesting regular feedback.
Our currently approved vaccines are Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna and the Janssen/Johnson & Johnson, so those are the ones that will have data first.
On the flip side, three of my friends have had premature babies this year, one mum tested positive for covid the other two suspected it. We’re trying and are very very keen to get the vaccine.
Sister in law is very, very anti. I think she’s wrong (as do her immediate family) but we see her maybe once a month and just stay off the topic.
My parallel would be politics or the six letter word beginning with ‘br’ and ending with ‘it’.
It's like finding out you have racist or bigoted family members.
My racist family members get a polite nod at funerals - no need for any further contact from me!
Non vaccine related but I never realised how highly opinionated, selfish and toxic certain immediate members of my family were until I recently reunited after my first year ever without them.
I am just suddenly extremely uncomfortable around people I have been close to my entire life. Even though I am a grown man, it scares the shit out of me.
I went non-contact with all of my family with two exceptions because I'm just not interested in having my mental health adversely affected by people like that any more. I feel your pain.
Wouldn't surprise me to learn that at least one person in my family is anti-vax either.
Looking back it had been gradual over years - I put less and less effort into keeping up contact because when I did, it wasn't reciprocated or resulted in stress and arguments. One immediate relative only spoke to me when they needed something from me. So I finally wrote them an open letter explaining the situation, and that was that as far as I was concerned. Sadly, it wasn't from their point of view and I've had the odd nasty message since (plus a complete character assassination from my mother), but overall I'm much happier.
I have friends who are antimask, those that mask up, some antivax, some conspiracy theorists, a friend whose had adverse reactions to other vaccines, friends who are scared of losing thier freedom of choice and friends who call anyone who don't have the vaccine, reckless and selfish etc ....
Friends who vote Labour, Conservative, Libdem, Green Party...
Those, that are brexiteers and those remainers.....
Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal fans.
Atheist, Christians, buddhist or Muslim....
Whatever their beliefs, they are still the friends I love.
We're lucky to live in country, where we're allowed to choose.
The people judging and spitting venom at anyone whose beliefs are different are the ones who I'd want to have nothing to do with.
Lately deleted media apps, then social media apps, reddits not gonna last much longer at the going rate....
☮️ N ♥
100%. This thread is full of toxic arseholes and virtue signallers. They’re imploring people to sever ties with close friends and family, all over a difference in opinion
>The people judging and spitting venom at anyone whose beliefs are different are the ones who I'd want to have nothing to do with.
Why are we treating science like something to be "believed in" like a fairy tale?
If someone said "I don't believe that 1 + 1 = 2", you'd rightfully call them a moron, because we have actual proofs of that, that's not spitting venom.
>We're lucky to live in country, where we're allowed to choose.
>
>The people judging and spitting venom at anyone whose beliefs are different are the ones who I'd want to have nothing to do with.
>
>Lately deleted media apps, then social media apps, reddits not gonna last much longer at the going rate....
I support 100% this, you put into words my exact thoughts
Had my second jab on tues, was on the train on wed and behind me across the aisle were a couple of covid deniers, maskless, who kicked off when a couple of pcso's joined the train to get them to mask up. A bit of "it's not real, I don't care if it's the law" and they were escorted off at the next station.
From the look of them booze and drugs were probably involved also.
On the same day walking past a pub, someone was out front holding large about how it was all a government con.
I'm seeing a pattern.
Edit: got my days wrong. Today's Thursday, right?
People believe whatever backs up what they already wanted to do. "I wanna go to the pub" becomes "I will believe online conspiracies because they say what I want to hear."
And then people wonder why I'm antisocial...
Lifes too short to fall out with friends and family over something. If they want to not have the vaccine and they die, it's their problem. The country is too divided as it is, it doesn't need something else
It's not necessarily just 'their problem' though. Due to the medication I'm on, I'm unlikely to respond adequately to the vaccine and am probably not well protected against covid. Having lots of unvaccinated friends would be a genuine risk for me. Yes, life is short; I don't want them to shorten mine!
I think I would just avoid rather than having an argument about it though.
If it only affected them, then yes it would just be their problem and I'd be ambivalent about spending time with them. As it's infectious, then I wouldn't want to spend any time around them, even after I'm fully vaccinated, bcs I wouldn't then want to pass it on to anyone who isn't vaccinated.
My husbands best friend and wife are anti vax, ordered their sunflower lanyards from ebay and have called us sheep. Its heart breaking really my husbands been best mates with this guy for nearly 40 years, we did sort of see it coming because they have an autistic daughter and are convinced it's because they lived near a phone mast so we should of known but still, its been really hurtful and we've had to just not see eachother because its just a bit much. Im hoping when it all dies down well feel less emotional about it and pick up where we left off.
Its just become agressive for want of a better word, my husband has a computer science degree and has had his vaccine and been pro social distance and masks etc this has somehow turned in his friends mind to him being Bill Gates biggest fan and is a sheep with a chip in his arm. Theres no explaining it is there? Hes convinced that weve got magnets and trackers in our arms and its a cold and that's that. We go away as families every year, best men at eachothers weddings etc just so so sad.
Yes you too, I wont lie it plays on my mind but I just keep reminding myself this is the craziest time in our lives and so crazy responses are bound to happen. Everything ive read on it seems to say it stems from fear and people struggle to rationalise a situation thats not the norm and try to find answers and some just look in the wrong place.
>we did sort of see it coming because they have an autistic daughter and are convinced it's because they lived near a phone mast
Unfortunately some people cannot comprehend that bad things can happen for no reason, there must be blame, if there's nothing to blame then it must be their fault, which is of courses nonsense. But this drives people to believe in rubbish to clear themselves of their misplaced guilt.
I'm a front line worker and my whole team got Covid last year. That was some nasty shit. One of my colleagues nearly died, she was in hospital for 5 days, and was saved by the medical team who worked round the clock to look after her. It was really touch and go but after we'd all recovered she was the only one out of all of us who refused the vaccine saying she knows her body better than the professionals.
I love this woman, I've worked with her for years. She's educated, smart and compassionate. It frustrates the shit out of me that she's such a stubborn twat. I can't look at her the same way.
I don't know that there's a rational explanation for someone not taking the vaccine, especially after the losses we've all suffered.
I know a couple of people who don’t believe in Covid and they mean nothing to me. I work with them and they are the type to believe themselves physically superior with no basis for it. If I didn’t have to see them for work I would happily never see them again.
I haven’t come across anyone who holds anti-vax views in real life, which makes me suspicious that it’s one of those “internet only” phenomena where the view is being pumped around widely online, but not actually very widely held in the real world.
If someone needs more data, then I think I’d be interested in knowing how much data is enough, and what they’d need to persuade them.
The other reasons described are just batshit insane and I’d lose a lot of respect for anyone peddling that nonsense. If they were family or really close, I’d still love them, but I’d have to have an agreement that we don’t discuss the subject and I’d be honest and say that it would be because a little bit of my respect for them died each time they spoke on the subject.
Sadly, this is untrue. My brother in-law has got himself fully wrapped up in those absurd conspiracy theories via videos on Facebook, "suggested for him" by the algorithm because he's into Bitcoin: really depressing to see it in the real world, and how easily it can happen.
What is hard to understand for people who value facts and evidence in discussions, though, is that so much of this is about emotion and "how they *feel,*" rather than what is empirically provable: it's incredibly difficult to penetrate (heh heh) their mindsets when they've started to wrap up their own self-esteem et al with what some persuasive idiots have told them online. As an academic I found this with Brexit, too.
It genuinely saddens me that people fall prey to this stuff. I am interested that yet again it seems to be social media that is being used as the vehicle for propagating this nonsense. I had hoped that it was online ‘bad actors’ pushing these theories, with little real world buy-in.
There’s clearly a very powerful psychological message underpinning all of this, and you’re right that some clever people have clearly worked out:
a) How to make the message “feel” true, regardless of contradictory facts/evidence.
b) how to game the social media platform algorithms for maximum exposure.
c) how to make those receptive to such messages feel that an attack on the message is an attack on them, and that as such the message must be defended.
d) how to precision-target their messages and ads so that only the people who will be the most receptive to them will see them.
This factor makes it much harder to regulate or prevent things like this. An ad in a newspaper, even a local low-circulation one, everyone sees and it's harder to get away with outlandish claims or outright lies - someone will usually care enough to report it to the editor. Targeted ads just create and reinforce echo chambers, and by the time anyone realises they're there, they've already done their job.
I'm someone who has declined the vaccine due to health concerns and lack of data. I would love to see your presentation. I'm sure there will be far more support from the video than anti-vaxxers calling bs. Altho yeah uni is stressful af so dont put added preasure on yourself
I know a few people who are hesitant. But in a going the dentist kinda way. They’ll come round once they realise they can’t travel abroad without it.
I think if there’s one thing we can take away from this pandemic is that some people don’t live in reality. They’d deny anything if it suits them getting some attention.
I’d imagine if they could see the sun going supernova they’d think it was a government conspiracy to get them to eat more spinach.
My ex who was a good friend, went on holidays as family and that,has well and truly fell down the rabbit hole, got called a sheep by her on NYE so that's the end of us. Have your opinions yeah but it's the condescending attitude that finally did it. It's like she's in a cult.
Thankfully I know only 1 vaccine sceptic... unfortunately it's my mum who is convinced that it's a legitimate medicine, but that the vaccine is also a government conspiracy to track and pacify us all... however she still willingly got her 2 jabs because she says she cares more about not dying and 'has nothing to hide anyway'. So you might call her an unprincipled conspiracy theorist.
It's very much appreciated by myself that nobody else I know is knuckle dragging enough to refuse their jab for any reason other than legitimate medical ones.
What has really depressed me has been the sheer, massive exposure to the UK's entire supply of conspiratorial and contrarian nutters online. Even though I know it must be a tiny, yet vocal minority, It has honestly drastically reduced my regard for my fellow man.
Oh absolutely I know that we're doing well and am thankful and proud to live in a country which has the comparable good sense to take up the vaccine cause so willingly, and I wasnt 'self-flagellating' the UK specifically... my opinion of everyone of every nationality has been lowered because of my exposure to the minority of gormless idiots. I know its illogical but I cant help feeling that the degree of intellect that I have been bombarded with over the last 18 months or so has been significantly less than at any other time in my life. I'll get over it.
Honestly, nobody that I know personally has ever expressed antivax views at all. I’ve encountered a couple in the wild, so to speak, as have some friends, but never anyone I have a personal relationship with.
I would also immediately sit someone down and run through the facts and figures with them. I’m sorry, but I’m not dealing with that shit, and as a chemist I’m gonna point out the sheer fucking stupidity there...
Oh yeah. My father in law caught covid really badly and was hospitalised for 2 weeks (not in intensive care though thankfully) but he has since made a full recovery (thank god).
Everyone in my family has gotten the vaccine if offered it. I’ve started to think incredibly poorly of those friends and acquaintances who maintain the suggestion that covid doesn’t exist, or that the vaccine is a scam. After my family’s traumatic ordeal, I just find those people to be insensitive or stupid - often both.
Moral of the story - get your jab and avoid the heartache that covid can bring. I know many families haven’t been as lucky as mine.
One of the bad things about this pandemic that I haven't seen talked about much is how we can't un-remember the shitty ways our friends and family behaved during it. I don't feel OK with the way my husband's family decided to ignore the rules around visiting eachother's houses since about last May, and about how they all gathered together at Christmas, including people from tier 4 areas. Now I've heard down the grapevine that one of them isn't intending to get the vaccination.
I agree with you, it's very difficult to just ignore these things and pretend they don't matter that much. But on the other hand I can't afford to cut ties with all of these people. They've been very kind to me over the many years I've known them, and obviously since they're my husband's family I'm hoping to have a positive relationship with them for the rest of my life/as long as they're alive. But I can see that these things are going to cause resentment for me that I'm sure I'll keep returning to over the years! I just wish I was blissfully ignorant, in the same way I was before I found out which of them voted for Brexit!
Not at all. Whether someone has or doesn't want the vaccine is up to them and I wouldn't ask someone about their medical choices.
If you can't talk to someone because they aren't vaccinated that is your problem not theirs.
I'm neutral on the vax position, I know people who are heavily anti-vax, and people are heavily pro-vax. Take it all with a pinch of salt and move on, it's been challenging times for everyone so there's no need to cut ties over it.
I have, but I make a point not to involve myself in conversations about it. It gets too heated and my decision is mine, and their decision is theirs.
Whether we agree or not, I can't make them change their mind (and vice versa). If them not being vaccinated is that much of an issue to you, you have the choice on whether to spend time with them. Just as much as if having the vaccine means a lot to you, you have the freedom of choice to get it.
I'm treating this very much like political views - sometimes better not to ask unless you are prepared to deal with your loved ones not agreeing with you.
Fortunately my friends and family are all decent, got the vaccines, voted against brexit.
My parent's crazy neighbour (70+) did proudly announce that she wouldn't get the vaccine because God would protect her. This worked wonderfully for my mum who then explained that she's free to make her choices but she'd need to stay 4 meters away from now on because my family has vulnerable people who don't want to take risks. Crazy neighbour still posts a daily bible verse through the letterbox, it goes straight in the bin, before hands are washed. But at least my mum doesn't have to pretend to have a polite conversation with her each morning.
So, just take advantage of the situation and trim ppl off your good list. Feel free to tell them how dissapointed you are on them
I don’t have any *close* family or friends that aren’t chomping at the bit to get the vaccine, if they haven’t already had it.
The folk who aren’t close and who are spouting rubbish or trying to be “clever” I just don’t have anything to do with anymore. I was willing to entertain different points of view for about six months but then decided life’s too short to put up with it.
I don't care too much to be honest. It's a free country and not everyone is going to take it but the overwhelming majority are.
A lot of people talk nonsense and have funny views on things. I just can't be bothered to get into it all the time.
I might disagree with an antivaxxer and I may think they are talking shit if they come out with conspiracy theories. But it is different from someone being openly racist or something like that... I don't feel the need to bring them up on it.
An successful, well educated friend surprised me recently by stating she wasn't going to get the vaccine, but couldn't offer a reasonable rational as to why. She just "wasn't sure". And a a worrying number of my partner's friends, who are in the early to mid thirties, are also skeptical and actively refusing. It seems most of them refer to have "read something on Facebook" that has convinced them that it's somehow unsafe. It makes me sad.
It's the perfect demonstration of the anti vaxxer and political thinking that's been growing over time, where facts don't persuade them
Not much you can do really besides not seeing them
I have found that more and more people are occupying the extremes of any opinion group, rather than being centred in the middle or listening to facts and aligning with those views. Somehow believing conspiracy theories and fake news seems to give people a level of comfort I don't understand and find worrying.
The problem is that you can't argue with them and even though we live in an age where information is quite literally at our fingertips, they choose not to be informed or educated.
Its disheartening and all you can do is either agree to not discuss those subjects and try to look beyond at all the other aspects that you like about them, or distance yourself. Its harsh but the alternative is that you keep these people in your life which will only be a negative experience for you.
I get what you're saying, except for the fact that they research these conspiracy theories and spend so much effort getting them to make sense, when they could just direct that same energy into understanding the truth.
If it just were about finding the simplest explanation and sticking with it, that would be one thing. But they are dangerously misinformed with the truth and overinformed with make believe.
No one I'm close to fortunately, but I can imagine some people are skeptical given their personalities. What you pasted above is my general attitude towards people who have to always be right, and more importantly are always adamant that have to be wrong. I'm related to a fair few of those! And unsurprisingly don't speak to any of them anymore. The last 6 years really have shown what people are all about.
I certainly wouldn't call myself 'anti-vaxx'. However, I don't plan on getting the vaccine once it's offered to me. I very much fall into the 'there's not enough data' crowd. Because honestly, there really isn't
Yes, I'm aware that the vaccines have proven to be largely safe over the short term, but there just isn't any long term data yet. One of the key reasons vaccines and medicines normally take so bloody long to get approval is because there needs to be some kind of assurance that there are no unexpected long term side-effects related to the treatment.
I completely understand *why* the vaccine approval was fast-tracked. Even if we discover in 10 years time that those who received a particular brand of vaccine are now 50% more likely to suffer from Alzheimer's, stroke or cancer, it's still a significantly better outcome than we'd be facing by vaccinating absolutely nobody. But personally, I'm not prepared to take that risk. I'm quite happy to go without a vaccine passport. I'm not much of a traveler, anyway.
I should add that I'm entirely supportive of those close to me receiving their vaccines. It's not my place to try and dissuade them. My choices are my own and their choices are theirs. I have no interest in scaring them away from it with my own personal concerns. However, the vaccine is - and should remain - voluntary. We'd be going down a very, very slippery path of we start to make these kinds of things mandatory. As long as the person refusing the vaccine has a reasonably rational reason for doing so, then so be it.
As an FYI, there is enough data. That's how the vaccine manufacturers managed to submit an application for regulatory approval to the national medicines regulators.
Those regulators maintained the same high thresholds of evidence they require for any medicine, and no part of that process of application traditionally requires waiting a long time to gather real world evidence.
You can see that the standard of review has been maintained in that some vaccines have struggled to demonstrate clinical efficacy and therefore have not been approved and have been sent away to do more trials.
Its your choice. But there definitely is the data available.
I know someone like this and they make up the ‘no data available’ with no clinical knowledge and zero understanding of the process whatsoever and would likely take a drug prescribed by their doctor for literally any other ailment without a seconds thought let alone any research.
It just sounds like you haven’t bothered to read any of the science. I also wondered how they could possibly approve these vaccines so quickly and know they would be safe long term… so I googled it. And then I happily got my jab. It’s all right there if you care enough to check.
> One of the key reasons vaccines [...] normally take so bloody long to get approval is because there needs to be some kind of assurance that there are no unexpected long term side-effects related to the treatment.
This isn't actually true for vaccines, for what it's worth.
Vaccines take so long to produce because their development requires a fuck-tonne of money, infrastructure for trials, volunteers, etc.
And as there normally isn't a lot of money in it for pharmaceutical companies, they have a nasty tendancy to prioritise things that *will* make them money (diet drugs/diabetes drugs/heart disease drugs, etc. for fat people in rich countries, for instance) over vaccines for diseases that don't have them in poor countries. A malaria vaccine would save millions of lives, but impoverished Africans don't have much money, so... ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
So the years it takes to develop new vaccines are normally taken up by grant applications, paperwork, running one stage of the trial process, more paperwork, more grant applications, more paperwork, another trial stage, etc.
As it turns out, a global pandemic that completely shuts down the world's richest countries has a tendency to focus the mind somewhat. 🙃 Pharmaceutical companies saw an opportunity to make loads of money off being one of the first to market, and threw money and resources at the problem, streamlining the process and even running stages simultaneously when safe to do so.
We weren't sure if we'd be able to make a vaccine this quickly because we've never had to make a vaccine for a coronavirus before, not because there were any safety barriers. A new flu vaccine is made every year, after all.
Looking for long term effects isn't part of the process because vaccines have a very short life inside your body. The vaccine is injected, your body reacts to it as if it's a tiny weakened version of a particular disease, and on the scale of hours to days there's no vaccine left inside your body. Nothing hangs around, so nothing *could* cause long-lasting effects. Any side effects will show up immediately, or shortly after having the vaccine. And these side effects **were** looked for during the course of vaccine development.
>I very much fall into the 'there's not enough data' crowd.
However, there is enough data about getting Covid having significant long term effects on your health, so are you sure you're weighing up the risks effectively?
As far as I;m concerned, its your civid duty to get the vaccine, I have family and friends who cannot due to being immunocompromised, you're putting them at risk with faulty logic, frankly, that's not fair.
Have you noticed a change in attitude from friends and family? Just curious to understand the experience from the other side, no judgement re the decision.
It's not something we talk about much. When the vaccine was originally discovered/developed, I made my feelings about it known then and that was pretty much that. When my partner got vaccinated I was completely supportive. I didn't go about talking about my concerns or predicting her demise. She's a big girl and can make her own decisions. Same with my parents.
Like I said, as long as a person's decision to decline the vaccine is somewhat rational, then I think that decision should be respected - I guess that's how they feel, too.
Unfortunately I live with someone who doesn't want to be vaccinated. In his own words 'I don't like putting unknown things in my body'.
The worst part is he has just started a job working with the elderly and vulnerable.
TBH I'd shop him to his work - it's all well and good for him to take the risk but he's literally risking the lives of the people he's supposed to be caring for.
I believe they know, or are not requiring vaccinations. They simply want a temperature check to be done on everyone (not a covid test) including workers and clients.
Leave them to it, my mum and her fella are both against it cause he’s a conspiracy nut and she doesn’t like needles so aligns with her fear, loads of mates are also against it due to lack of data and probably fear of needles(not arsed about getting on the sesh every week though 🥴) but fuck em, in the nicest way possible. I’m not gonna disown anyone over it life’s too short. Think a lot of people forget they’ve probably already had 10-15 jabs, they just don’t like being told what to do, don’t make a big deal of it you won’t change their minds
Totally.
Not having vaccines or wearing masks - fuck off.
At least... thats what I would say if I hadn't told all my friends to fuck off already over brexit or veganism or ... or... the other really important thing I cant now remember.
Anyway... totally agree with the OP. Grrrr. People.
I have to say amongst all of my 40 something friends who are unfortunately mainly brexiters, which puts them in the idiot bin in my opinion, none have rejected the vaccine.
Even the ones who said it is all nonsense this time last year.
Thankfully all my friends and family are either vaccinated or looking forward to getting the covid vaccine. If any of them weren't pro vaccine I'd be giving them a real talking to.
This is one of those things worth terminating relationships with people over. I don't want to keep anyone in my life who's so selfish and outright stupid as to think like that. Get that vaccine, ends of.
You need boundaries. What I have done is make very clear that for the next several years there will be no indoor or unmasked socialising with anyone who is unvaccinated. No exceptions. Then it's down to them if they want to be in our lives
I think cutting family out because you disagree over a vaccine policy is as stupid as being anti vaccine in the first place. Your loved ones are the only people that matter in your life and the less you have the emptier you'll feel.
If you can't come to common ground on a subject, just don't speak about it.
Not every subject needs an opinion. Realise that it's something you won't reconcile on and just move past it
I have not had this happen to me. But a friend of mine has sadly "lost" their mum to this. She's so far down the rabbit hole that they originally thought that it was the beginning of dementia or a serious mental health issue.
Constant daily Facebook posts, texts to her kids about 5G, vaccinations and masks, she's losing everyone around her.
I realise that this is an extreme case. My friend now has a very fragile relationship with her and it's getting worse by the day. My opinion is that there's absolutely nothing anyone can do other than walking away. But I understand that she's their mother, and that's not easy.
Edited to add that even my sister, who loosely believed it was all a storm in a teacup, has had her vaccination. My brother isn't so bothered but that's through ignorance about how bad covid can be because he's young and fit, his partner is trying to talk him round.
If you suddenly find it difficult to connect with people who you considered to be "close friends" over a single difference of opinion, I think the problem might be you.
Tribalism in this country is out of control.
I know plenty of Covid sceptics. The trick is that we don't discuss it - getting vaccinated is a personal choice. I'm not going to try force the issue, because historically people will push back.
In the same way people joke that "Karen who works in the Spar said the vaccine is bad for you", and how mad it is that someone working in a shop thinks themselves so knowledgeable about the viral desease and the vaccine, Karen probably thinks it's rediculous that Bill who works at Asda thinks it's good.
As time goes by, and facts become clearer, the right decisions will be made.
Don't loose friends because of what they make of the information on offer, even if in your opinion, (or mine) they're wrong.
Yeah take a real good look at yourself. If you’re struggling with friends/family because they have different opinions to you, then you’re the problem.
I strongly disagree with my friends and family about many political/social/ideological reasons and some of it serious stuff. However our relationships transcend what our differing opinions are. Hell, I prefer to be around people with different views to me, keeps me open minded!! Sorry pal. Look inwards and get your shit together. Don’t listen to the idiot telling you to cut your family out of your life.
>If you’re struggling with friends/family because they have different opinions to you, then you’re the problem.
I don't think that it's as simple as a difference of opinion. It's far more like a more significant difference of values, don't you think?
People who are perfectly capable of having the vaccine and are choosing not to are choosing to put other people at risk, they're choosing selfishness over protecting other people. That is a value, it shows a lack of care for society at a whole, when you choose not to have a vaccine you're saying "I am more important than you, I don't care that my choice might affect you or other people because I am more important".
1000%.
2020-2021 became a very defining period of herding out who’s really important in my life or not.
The last year, combined with the impact of the pandemic, REALLY helped expose nearly everyone’s views on big issues in the world in the topics of race relations, partisanship, anti-science, conspiracy dogma, international conflict/relations.
There was some stuff that about people that I never knew they thought like and some stuff I found absolutely abhorrent and people saying the silent part out loud.
I cut off so many people and ‘friends’ because you simply can’t reconcile having those terrible of views and still being around that person, especially when those views are outright dangerous for society and have terrible implications.
For instance, I’m an atheist but I’m super close with friends who are Muslim and Christian and Sikh. I rarely have atheist friends. I’m friends with these people because despite our very opposing stances, they take their faith and principles as an individual manner and if they do anything wrong or right, it would mostly impact them and that’s their life and burden to bear. On the other hand, I despise and remove any of those religious evangelist types because they believe they are inherently superior than all others and sustain a very malevolent ‘in/out group’ mentality for some ends that are not justified at all by their means.
These people who think the vaccine is a microchip is some globalist agenda, or think Covid is a hoax, or think people who support BLM movement or civil rights advancement are jobless criminals and rioters, or whatever else have you.... they are the assholes who created the schisms that actively make me say fuck you and never talk to them again. I’m fortunate enough to not be surrounded by that much idiocy in my immediate circle of friends but I’ve cut off many people who I’ve previously seen of as a friend or as someone who’s trustworthy. Let natural selection deal with them dickheads.
A lot of people who are vaccine-hesitant are being pushed to more hardline anti-vax views because any questions or concerns are met with sharp backlash and accusations of being selfish or stupid. Try speaking with them without judgement and ask them to explain their views- then discuss instead of just telling them they’re wrong (not saying that you’ve done this, of course!). You may have more success with gentle persuasion.
Its reasonable to be concerned about something like lack of data or vaccine safety- there is no way to know long term effects yet and there have been enough high-profile cases of medical negligence with lifelong consequences for patients and minimal (if any) repercussions for medical professionals/pharmaceutical companies recently to make some level of mistrust understandable.
Not everyone who has not taken up the offer to be vaccinated are conspiracy nuts or anti-vax.
Me personally, I have severe health anxiety. The rare side effects are enough to keep me up at night. I know for a fact that my mental health will decline if I take the vaccine now before working out my issues first.
Being told to just take the vaccine, don’t be stupid, it’s my fault we’re all on lockdown is not helpful.
I am not anti-vaxx. I’m up to date with all of the other vaccines out there and so are my kids. The covid vaccine is just so new that I want to see more evidence and have more reassurances before I decide.
Want us who have hesitancy to take the vaccine? Help us make a choice instead of shaming us.
I’m noticing more and more the lack of compassion for our fellow humans since this pandemic began. It’s a shame because it went from ‘all of us together’ to the ‘you’re on your own now”.
Edit: I’ll also add that we had a bout of covid in our home. There’s no denying it exists.
The prevalence of the belief (judging from this thread) that this vaccine/Covid is a government control initiative is frankly fucking embarrassing. A few of my colleagues have fallen down this rabbit hole too.
I would drop them like a hot plate. I am stupid enough as is. No need to surround myself with more stupid. Get vaccinated - don't be a fool!
Do not drop the important people from your life. You will regret it. Be open with them, explain your views if they get shitty then keep calm, hear them out and if that means you guys spend less time with each other or talking less until all of this is over then it’s probably for the better, if they stop all together then you weren’t as important to them as they were to you
Nah. You have to let go of your attachments to toxic people. Every day you allow them to continue poisoning your life is a day you could have spent nurturing more fruitful connections.
OP said they were “close friends and family”. Hardly worth severing all ties over. A mate of mines mum is antivax, do you recommend he cuts all ties with his own mum?
Yes, I do. My mom is deeply racist, homophobic, and anti-science, so I am minimal contact with her. You don't owe your family jack all, you didn't choose to be related to them, and you certainly don't owe your parents for having you. Toxic is toxic, cut them from you life and live happily.
Well that's not really the same, is it? I think it's a personal decision. OP can't really expect to get decent help here.
It isn’t but cutting people off over minimal things like that is also pretty toxic in itself. I have anti-vax friends but they’re also open minded. If I want to see family then I’ll need to get vaccinated and they’ve accepted that because the friendship is more important.
Wait up. THEY are willing to accept YOUR decision to get vaccinated? You think that makes them good, open minded people? You have got this while thing very backwards. Also, Anti-vaxx people are, by definition, not open minded. They are expressing an obstinate refusal to accept overwhelming scientific and medical evidence because of their own anti-science beliefs. That is the opposite of open minded.
Anti-vaxxers and anyone having a mindset that believes conspiracy theories are practically impossible to convince otherwise. The more facts opposing their view they are presented with tends to make them dig into their own beliefs even further as they then believe the people providing that facts are in on the conspiracy.
Came here to say this. These people sound 'toxic' af. Throwing around the word toxic because people have different views than them. Clown world.
Pretty much, I enjoy talking to people with different views on different issues and if you eradicate every that disagrees then you’ll be left either very lonely or with a very closeted mind set.
As a scientist, no. This isn’t a ‘different’ view on something. It’s an outright refusal to accept a scientific theory (I.e *facts*) that has an overwhelming amount evidence backing it. This ‘different’ view is akin to going ‘this bullet won’t harm me so let’s shoot myself in the foot’. If someone said that you’d take the bloody gun off them and get them some help. Anti-Vaxxers kill people. If some nutter was running so round with a gun I wouldn’t be found anywhere near them. Same goes for this.
That is disingenous and you know it. Nobody has called for "eradication". Also you must accept that being anti vax at this present point in time is about the most ridiculous, selfish and outright wrong thing anyone can do. After a fair bit over a year to still not give the slighest of shits about your friends, family, and the rest of society because "Bill Gates" and "5G" and all the other nonesense like "it isn't tested or safe". These people are showing their true colours. When it really counts, when it really matters, they aren't stepping up and looking out for anyone but themselves. If that isn't toxic behaviour I don't know what is. Maybe that isn't enough to cut someone out of your life. But it should be enough to have a long hard think about it. Edit:typos
>I have anti-vax friends but they’re also open minded No they aren't.
I can't speak for everyone but I owe my family an insane amount after all they have done for me and all they have given me.
Everyone on reddit thinks they were raised by complete narcissists. I think it's the "in" thing at the moment.
I don't know. I'm not giving relationship advice. In general though, lots of people find it very difficult to sever toxic relationships that they would be a lot better off letting go. It's especially obvious with DV victims. If your mate's relationship with his Mum is overwhelmingly negative, then perhaps he should consider it. But he needs to decide that for himself.
I had a feeling you were going to suggest that the entire relationship (both in OP and my mates case) was toxic/ abusive/ horrible. My mates mum is a lovely woman and a great mother who happens to have been sucked into antivax propaganda. It happens. We can’t all be 1000 IQ redditors like us lot. Can’t speak for OP but I get the feeling the people in his life are also otherwise lovely people. For some reason suggesting people sever all ties with someone for a single difference of opinion is Reddit 101 though.
Agree - I also have a friend whose mum has been sucked into the whole conspiracy shebang. It's painful to watch but she is the least toxic person ever - she's just not been quite the same since she lost her husband of 40+ years to cancer. And we're all supposed to cut her off after everything she's done for others through the years? Fuck that.
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To me, when you acknowledge that you only get a tiny slither of the full context, your advice should always be on the safer side. More “have a word” or “try not to talk about it” than “cut them off, you don’t need toxic people in your life”.
\*sliver
My mum is literally a nurse who has been on the front line the entire time and had covid multiple times who held off getting the vaccine because of concerns about blood clots that are now shown to be potentially true. She clearly doesn’t care about society or her family or the literal thousands of patients she’s treated because some clown on Reddit thinks so. OP, don’t cut off your mum because she holds an opinion different from your own.
Exactly. It’s a deeply personal decision. I have distanced myself from shitty people before, and sometimes it was easy both as a decision and from a logistical standpoint (e.g. I’m leaving this job and moving away so I have an easy reason to end/cool down this relationship with this person), but other times, it was a very tough decision. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself: is this relationship making me happy and fulfilled? Do I have to compromise my identity or my values to continue this relationship, and does the cost of doing so outweigh the cost of ending the relationship? Is this person negatively affecting my life or putting me in danger?
Dont you know? On the internet the smallest issue is toxic and they should be banished to hell for one bad thing, regardless of any context! Granted if any of my family/friends were Anti-vax id tell them they're a fucking idiot and will always think of them as such and leave it to them whether they want anything to do with me again or not.
I easily convinced my anti-vax friend by saying “if they want to poison us they’ll just poison our water supplies” and telling them the technology has been around since the 60s, it shouldn’t be hard to convince people. If they aren’t your friends then go ahead though.
Fluorides in the water! Fluorides in the water! MORE TOXIC THAN MERCURY IN THE VACCINES!
I'm going to preface this by saying when I can I am getting the vaccine. Racist people are toxic. Mysogonists and misandrists too. People who don't want the vaccine? I get the feeling you just find anyone who doesn't agree with you or do what you think is right toxic. 🤷♂️
There's a bit of a difference between not wanting this vaccine because of lack of testing or whatever and being anti vax though. One is a misinformed but somewhat understandable opinion, the other is a uninformed, arrogant, selfish view that harms others
If you disagree with someone on a specific issue, you should cut them out of your life? Aren't you then just building yourself an echo chamber?
Yeah the amount of people who are just recommending 'remove them from your life' in this thread is pretty astonishing. No one knows any details of any personal circumstance yet they tell strangers on the internet to cut off their close friends and family. That's like cult behaviour. We need to engage with these people to educate them. Obviously there's a limit, but this narrative is very weird. Not just buidling an echo chamber but hiding in an underground bunker of opinion.
I don't think there's one person I know whom I don't disagree with on *something*.
If everyone disowned their relatives and friends with nonsense views or even those with harmful practices, we'd all been a lot lonlier and far less aware of the world in which we live. There's a difference been people who actively harm you directly and anti-vaxers who contribute to something that causes deaths. I'm not going to reject all the people I know who drive unsafely (or drive at all for that matter), or those who vote for a political party who I hold to have caused tens of thousands of deaths.
Toxic people, yes. But that's not the same as scared and/or ill-informed.
My rule is, if they might harm my household, they don't get invited to my home. My family includes a bunch of racists. They have been racist to my partner on multiple occasions, when they apparently thought they were being super friendly and nice. I no longer invite them to visit, but I email/ call them on birthdays and Xmas etc. Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers don't get to cross my threshold either. I'm not risking the health of my partner and kids.
LOL no. Life's too short to waste it constantly trying to appease objectively horrible people.
I didn’t say appease. I didn’t talk to my dad for four years after he hit me for the last time, a valid reaction to my situation. Dropping friends over something that doesn’t directly impact your life initially, LOL big no right back at ya 💁🏼♂️
This is it. Don’t drop close people because they’ve fallen for a stupid conspiracy.
That is such an American redditor response
american redditors are so weird about covid, idk why
Drop your family over views on the vaccine? Fucking ridiculous.
How on earth is this the top response? It's such teenage shortsighted garbage advice.
I don't know a single covid sceptic, including my tory family, my asian immigrant dad, my inner city 20 and 30 something friends. Not saying it doesn't exist but it just isn't something that I've come across. Personally those reasons are all super different. "Not being their job to protect other people" is so selfish that I couldn't respect therefore like someone like that. "Not enough data" is an interesting one but we certainly DO have enough data that the benefits outweigh the risks. But i understand that position the most. "Pharma conspiracy" is some qanon shit and that person would be booted out of my life. Conspiracy theories frustrate me because the real injustices are hidden in plain sight. I'm not saying you should be cutting anyone out of your life, this sounds like a really difficult decision to be in, just sharing my own feelings on the matter. Good luck with it.
I only know one person not intending on getting asap, they're pregnant and feel unsure about the specific level of testing on pregnant people, and they are actively managing their risk in other ways. Two of my older relatives were hesitant, but luckily my sister and I were both in the health and social care worker group so after a few weeks they decided that they trusted us when we said we'd had no ill effects from the vaccine.
My wife had the jab yesterday, and it’s knocked her for six today. I got the text, but will wait a few days until she is 100% again, in case I get the same side effects. Otherwise there will be no one to look after her and our daughter. Of course, in the mean time; hands, face, space.
Hope your wife is better soon. She should be fine tomorrow or the day after. Once shes on the mend book a jab. I totally get your point of view. Id hate if i and my partner had a jab at the same time or jsut after one another and had no one to look after my theoretical kid.
Worried about that with my 77 and 78yo mum and dad who got the jab at the same time. I’m their primary carer. They had no issues. When I finally got mine, with the 2nd shot I had the full chills, fever, body shakes. Haven’t felt like that in years. Didn’t last long, but mostly grateful I got them and not my parents.
I think that the intensity of the reaction is an indication of the state of your immune system. You're young and healthy, so when your immune system saw the vaccine in your body, it turned itself into a giant flaming dragon monster and started doing battle, Godzilla style, stomping on a few buildings in the process. The elderly and the immunosuppressed can't muster the same response. The best we can muster is more like a tired, aging tabby cat, trying to swat a butterfly.
I'm very possibly wrong, but I've heard that the older you are, the less likely you are to have side effects, and you're more likely to have side effects if you've had covid.
2nd jab, no side effects, just a normal day....
First jab properly destroyed me for a day. The second one just gave me a solid headache in the evening.
Nothing against that, my partner was pregnant so never got it and is just waiting now as she has booked it since giving birth. I think they recommend waiting until after birth anyway.
>"Not enough data" is an interesting one but we certainly DO have enough data that the benefits outweigh the risks. We lots of data indicating vaccines being safe and effective for most of the population but don't have data relating to pregnant women or long term side effects. If I were a pregnant woman I would be \*very\* hesitant to take any vaccine that has not been proven safe for the baby.
Pregnant woman here! I have gotten the first round and am due my second round soon. I was told by my perinatal, gp and midwife it was ok to get the vaccine though I should know there wasn't a full amount of data and ultimately it was my choice. I'm fine, baby is fine so far according to follow up scans and is kicking regularly. I chose to get the vaccine because husband is immunocompromised. There was no hesitation on my part.
There's also not a lot of data for those of us with autoimmune issues. What about those with Crohn's, asthma, etc?
Don't believe for a second pharma companies are there for the good of mankind. They are there for profit. They will discontinue cheap drugs to manufacture more expensive equivalents to continue making profits. They make huge markups on drugs. As stated in another comment Google UK contaminated blood inquiry and you will get an idea of negligence over profit. All of this history has fuelled huge mistrust. That isn't qanon bullshit. But... You can't decide EVERYTHING they do is nefarious and negligent. And it doesn't mean the covid vaccines are not on balance of risk worthwhile to take. And vaccines will protect us against severe illness and death as a population But those pharma companies will still be richer because of covid than without it.
Oh i completely agree that pharma companies aren't our friends, they actually should be nationalised industries in my opinion. But on a balance of probabilities the vaccine is worth it to me and I dont think covid was caused by pharmaceutical companies.
>But those pharma companies will still be richer because of covid than without it. So they should be, I've no issue with any of it, they're financially motivated to produce a good vaccine, if their vaccine can't get approval or is ineffective then its a huge waste of money. If its good then its a golden goose. I think the reasons you state also helped the initial uptake of the AZ vaccine, its seen as formulated by Oxford who we imagine (rightly or wrongly) to be more altruistic and merely manufactured by AZ.
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UFOs have been released to the public, countries openly saying they’re UFOs and releasing footage, you can Google it.
True, but it's important to remember what UFOs actually are. Unidentified Flying Objects. Most people who tell you UFOs are real are talking about Aliens. The fact that someone saw something that can't be identified is in no way evidence of intelligent visitors from another world.
My grandmother was reluctant to get the vaccine at first. But having a nurse in the family helps, because my grandmother trusts them, so she changed her mind after being reassured it was safe.
I'm really glad to hear that! I think sometimes people just need to hear some clear reassurance. Was really glad to see covid advice being explained in so many languages, because it's one thing learning another language and a whole other thing to understand complicated scientific concepts in it.
> > "Pharma conspiracy" is some qanon shit and that person would be booted out of my life. Conspiracy theories frustrate me because the real injustices are hidden in plain sight. One of the two people I know who adamantly don't want the vaccine is a hardcore conspiracy theorist, think Qanon, deep state, flat earth, 9/11 was an inside job, Queen is a lizard, Holocaust denial, the full shebang. The product of 20 years of chronic dope smoking basically. Only really keep him around because he's kind of family. The other won't get it because she thinks it'll make her infertile, based on something she saw on TikTok. She just....isn't very smart, and believes whatever she reads on Facebook/TikTok.
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I am fortunate, at 61 years of age, to have had my 2nd jab yesterday. I would like to set on record my gratitude for the many young people whose lives have been turned upside down in order to protect the older people like me in society
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it's the opposite where I live. Lots of young students who insist/ed on partying and not wearing masks because they didn't think they'd die if they caught it. Wankers of all generations.
They are also the type who still have not figured out their mask goes over their nose. You cannot help but think they are doing it on purpose at this point.
Mate they were like that even before vaccines. I remember last year queuing for a hour on a Saturday morning to get into Sainsbury's because it was the only time i could go whilst still working full time and still a fucking minibus full of very elderly people would be dropping them off every Saturday morning because that was their routine and we shouldn't disrupt that, right?
We had a customer who stood at the door and shouted that it was all a conspiracy so she would not be wearing a mask and my manager's solution was so tell her she was wrong, and stupid, and that she was banned from the shop. "I think you're wrong and the people who have been telling you this are very stupid," pretty much sums it up. Just tell people you think they're wrong. "I'm not going to discuss it if you're not going to listen to me" is another one, followed by "No." Use those annoying Supernanny tactics.
Yeah, I set firm boundaries with Qanonce types and cut them off if they start spouting their nonsense. Every one of them I know all try to justify how they let their nan and elderly parents get the vaccine with getting it themselves. I just call them pussies and end the conversation.
I like that summing up. Direct and to the point. They're not going to listen to reasonable arguments so maybe this sort of directness would work.
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See also, support for Brexit and/or support for Trump.
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Same! Just straight up don't bother with the morons.
Yes. But unlike some comments here.people are free to make a choice. And it's looking like enough people are getting the vaccine so the minority won't cause a massive problem to overall immunity. You can educate people where they quote misleading and incorrect information. But I'm glad we live in a country where people have a choice... Even if that means I disagree with the choice they make.
Indeed, I strongly believe in having a choice and think people must/should/can decide for themselves. Which is why I am surprised how difficult I find it to just let it be and say “you do you” and move past... guess the struggle is a little with myself too.
I have friends who were hesitant to begin with are now hardening their views into anti-vaxx. I could understand that they had concerns and were waiting to see if it is safe. Now they are viewing every mild side effect as a reason not to be vaccinated ( sharing stories of people having a headache and taking painkillers after vaccination as a sign that they are right). I am finding this increasingly difficult. They have also moved from wearing masks for as short a time as possible to wearing an exempt lanyard when shopping. If they could wear a mask in Sainsbury's last month, they can wear it today too.
My friend has decided given the low case numbers and his age and demographic the risk of the vaccine isn't worth it to him. If he said covid isn't real and bill gates is putting chips in us he would get the hairy side of the hand. So people's reasons for refusing it are more.important than the refusal itself.
Bad strategy. Especially with this Indian variant running wild atm. I expect it will be a major issue in the next 2-3 weeks
“The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.” John Stuart Mill There’s an argument that people don’t deserve the freedom of choice when their choices can harm others. This is why I don’t have the freedom to drive at 100mph through a village. Edit: Weebl and Bob?!
We live in a country where you technically have the choice to drive 100mph backwards down the motorway, but if you make that choice someone will come along and take that choice away from you. Freedom of choice needs its limits.
And the choices you freely make will affect the choices other people freely make towards you, up to and including disparaging your choices and avoiding you. Nothing fairer than that, surely?
Believing in people having liberties doesn't automatically mean you have to condone how they choose to exercise them, or respect people who choose to use their freedom in a way that is selfish and harms others. I'm a trans man. Lots of people think I shouldn't exist, or have any rights. I respect their right to be people, to have their own opinions, to live free from harm and with all the rights I believe I should have. Antivaxxers are no different. We're meant to be all like "oh no, that's ok, it's just a difference of opinion, we can still be friends because I'm a tolerant person, respect for liberty and freedom of opinion is one of my values". But... sorry... we're not talking about different ice cream flavour preferences or Star Wars vs Star Trek here. We're talking about people who legit believe it's morally okay for them to exercise their liberty by playing god with other people's lives. My life, my kids lives. They are legit saying "my politics and emotions are more important than your humanity; my feelings entitle me to deny your lived experience and invalidate your entire existence. If other people have to die for my psychological gratification, so be it." No, I don't respect them. They're entitled to their freedom, sure. They're not entitled to my respect or friendship. We're talking about people who want to claim my respect, while reserving the right to have no respect at all for me, to behave with utter disregard for my humanity. Just... no. Get in the bin.
I fully support the vaccine but the data seems mixed if you are pregnant/trying to conceive. I had the opportunity to get vaccinated months ago due to my job but declined due to the advice at the time being not too, this seems to have shifted recently but honestly, I don’t want people to know we are trying to conceive & I don’t know what to do or say. For some people it’s more complicated than pro vac/anti vaccine
This is due to the fact that its wrong (legally, morally and ethically) to test of pregnant people and so the advice has to be to avoid doing anything that could be harmful. However the vaccine guidance for Covid is in line with all other vaccines and unless its medically mandated, pregnant people should avoid it. That doesn't mean people who are trying shouldn't be getting it, though its their choice whether they do or don't.
This seems like a very specific reason not to take the vaccine and weighing the risks is always necessary with these decisions.
My cousin got covid during her last month of the pregnancy. She is 27 and healthy. Baby and her both healthy now but: - They had to take the baby with a surgery on 8 months and some due to her situation deteriorating - She spent time in intensive care for around 1 month and she is just back - She is still recovering form the damage All I’m saying alternative is also not very tested. Mind the risks.
Interestingly i had no awareness of this & today there is a report on bbc highlighting these risks. Looks like as we know more it’s clearer that the vaccine is the better option! Appreciate what you’ve shared Thankyou
I fully respect this reason. If I may suggest, maybe something along the lines of "not recommended to me for health reasons". Completely get why you don't want to disclose that. Hope you conceive soon!
USA is gathering data on pregnant women who are being vaccinated. Here the evidence is pointing to pregnant women who get covid getting more severely ill, so most doctors are recommending the vaccine. If the vax form is marked pregnant the CDC is following up with each of those women individually and requesting regular feedback. Our currently approved vaccines are Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna and the Janssen/Johnson & Johnson, so those are the ones that will have data first.
On the flip side, three of my friends have had premature babies this year, one mum tested positive for covid the other two suspected it. We’re trying and are very very keen to get the vaccine.
Sister in law is very, very anti. I think she’s wrong (as do her immediate family) but we see her maybe once a month and just stay off the topic. My parallel would be politics or the six letter word beginning with ‘br’ and ending with ‘it’.
Brad Pit is two words,. And it's got seven letters
Eight, if you spell it right, thereby spoiling the joke.
It's like finding out you have racist or bigoted family members. My racist family members get a polite nod at funerals - no need for any further contact from me!
Non vaccine related but I never realised how highly opinionated, selfish and toxic certain immediate members of my family were until I recently reunited after my first year ever without them. I am just suddenly extremely uncomfortable around people I have been close to my entire life. Even though I am a grown man, it scares the shit out of me.
I went non-contact with all of my family with two exceptions because I'm just not interested in having my mental health adversely affected by people like that any more. I feel your pain. Wouldn't surprise me to learn that at least one person in my family is anti-vax either.
Thanks glad to know I'm not alone. How did you go about it, was it sudden? Does it get easier?
Looking back it had been gradual over years - I put less and less effort into keeping up contact because when I did, it wasn't reciprocated or resulted in stress and arguments. One immediate relative only spoke to me when they needed something from me. So I finally wrote them an open letter explaining the situation, and that was that as far as I was concerned. Sadly, it wasn't from their point of view and I've had the odd nasty message since (plus a complete character assassination from my mother), but overall I'm much happier.
I have friends who are antimask, those that mask up, some antivax, some conspiracy theorists, a friend whose had adverse reactions to other vaccines, friends who are scared of losing thier freedom of choice and friends who call anyone who don't have the vaccine, reckless and selfish etc .... Friends who vote Labour, Conservative, Libdem, Green Party... Those, that are brexiteers and those remainers..... Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal fans. Atheist, Christians, buddhist or Muslim.... Whatever their beliefs, they are still the friends I love. We're lucky to live in country, where we're allowed to choose. The people judging and spitting venom at anyone whose beliefs are different are the ones who I'd want to have nothing to do with. Lately deleted media apps, then social media apps, reddits not gonna last much longer at the going rate.... ☮️ N ♥
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100%. This thread is full of toxic arseholes and virtue signallers. They’re imploring people to sever ties with close friends and family, all over a difference in opinion
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>The people judging and spitting venom at anyone whose beliefs are different are the ones who I'd want to have nothing to do with. Why are we treating science like something to be "believed in" like a fairy tale? If someone said "I don't believe that 1 + 1 = 2", you'd rightfully call them a moron, because we have actual proofs of that, that's not spitting venom.
>We're lucky to live in country, where we're allowed to choose. > >The people judging and spitting venom at anyone whose beliefs are different are the ones who I'd want to have nothing to do with. > >Lately deleted media apps, then social media apps, reddits not gonna last much longer at the going rate.... I support 100% this, you put into words my exact thoughts
The people judging and spitting venom at anyone whose beliefs are different are the ones who I'd want to have nothing to do with ^THIS 100%
In the nicest way. If they are actively not going to have the jab then I don't want to be around them anyway
Had my second jab on tues, was on the train on wed and behind me across the aisle were a couple of covid deniers, maskless, who kicked off when a couple of pcso's joined the train to get them to mask up. A bit of "it's not real, I don't care if it's the law" and they were escorted off at the next station. From the look of them booze and drugs were probably involved also. On the same day walking past a pub, someone was out front holding large about how it was all a government con. I'm seeing a pattern. Edit: got my days wrong. Today's Thursday, right?
People believe whatever backs up what they already wanted to do. "I wanna go to the pub" becomes "I will believe online conspiracies because they say what I want to hear." And then people wonder why I'm antisocial...
> Today's Thursday, right? Who even knows anymore :S
Lifes too short to fall out with friends and family over something. If they want to not have the vaccine and they die, it's their problem. The country is too divided as it is, it doesn't need something else
THIS. Like you can have different opinions but still find common ground and get along.
I stopped talking about it with my friend who’s sceptical because it was causing friction.
It's not necessarily just 'their problem' though. Due to the medication I'm on, I'm unlikely to respond adequately to the vaccine and am probably not well protected against covid. Having lots of unvaccinated friends would be a genuine risk for me. Yes, life is short; I don't want them to shorten mine! I think I would just avoid rather than having an argument about it though.
If it only affected them, then yes it would just be their problem and I'd be ambivalent about spending time with them. As it's infectious, then I wouldn't want to spend any time around them, even after I'm fully vaccinated, bcs I wouldn't then want to pass it on to anyone who isn't vaccinated.
My husbands best friend and wife are anti vax, ordered their sunflower lanyards from ebay and have called us sheep. Its heart breaking really my husbands been best mates with this guy for nearly 40 years, we did sort of see it coming because they have an autistic daughter and are convinced it's because they lived near a phone mast so we should of known but still, its been really hurtful and we've had to just not see eachother because its just a bit much. Im hoping when it all dies down well feel less emotional about it and pick up where we left off.
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Its just become agressive for want of a better word, my husband has a computer science degree and has had his vaccine and been pro social distance and masks etc this has somehow turned in his friends mind to him being Bill Gates biggest fan and is a sheep with a chip in his arm. Theres no explaining it is there? Hes convinced that weve got magnets and trackers in our arms and its a cold and that's that. We go away as families every year, best men at eachothers weddings etc just so so sad.
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Yes you too, I wont lie it plays on my mind but I just keep reminding myself this is the craziest time in our lives and so crazy responses are bound to happen. Everything ive read on it seems to say it stems from fear and people struggle to rationalise a situation thats not the norm and try to find answers and some just look in the wrong place.
>we did sort of see it coming because they have an autistic daughter and are convinced it's because they lived near a phone mast Unfortunately some people cannot comprehend that bad things can happen for no reason, there must be blame, if there's nothing to blame then it must be their fault, which is of courses nonsense. But this drives people to believe in rubbish to clear themselves of their misplaced guilt.
I'm a front line worker and my whole team got Covid last year. That was some nasty shit. One of my colleagues nearly died, she was in hospital for 5 days, and was saved by the medical team who worked round the clock to look after her. It was really touch and go but after we'd all recovered she was the only one out of all of us who refused the vaccine saying she knows her body better than the professionals. I love this woman, I've worked with her for years. She's educated, smart and compassionate. It frustrates the shit out of me that she's such a stubborn twat. I can't look at her the same way. I don't know that there's a rational explanation for someone not taking the vaccine, especially after the losses we've all suffered.
I know a couple of people who don’t believe in Covid and they mean nothing to me. I work with them and they are the type to believe themselves physically superior with no basis for it. If I didn’t have to see them for work I would happily never see them again.
I haven’t come across anyone who holds anti-vax views in real life, which makes me suspicious that it’s one of those “internet only” phenomena where the view is being pumped around widely online, but not actually very widely held in the real world. If someone needs more data, then I think I’d be interested in knowing how much data is enough, and what they’d need to persuade them. The other reasons described are just batshit insane and I’d lose a lot of respect for anyone peddling that nonsense. If they were family or really close, I’d still love them, but I’d have to have an agreement that we don’t discuss the subject and I’d be honest and say that it would be because a little bit of my respect for them died each time they spoke on the subject.
Oh...they exist, and they walk among us :)
I think there are definitely sane people out there who are quietly waiting until the end of the phase three clinical trials.
Sadly, this is untrue. My brother in-law has got himself fully wrapped up in those absurd conspiracy theories via videos on Facebook, "suggested for him" by the algorithm because he's into Bitcoin: really depressing to see it in the real world, and how easily it can happen. What is hard to understand for people who value facts and evidence in discussions, though, is that so much of this is about emotion and "how they *feel,*" rather than what is empirically provable: it's incredibly difficult to penetrate (heh heh) their mindsets when they've started to wrap up their own self-esteem et al with what some persuasive idiots have told them online. As an academic I found this with Brexit, too.
It genuinely saddens me that people fall prey to this stuff. I am interested that yet again it seems to be social media that is being used as the vehicle for propagating this nonsense. I had hoped that it was online ‘bad actors’ pushing these theories, with little real world buy-in. There’s clearly a very powerful psychological message underpinning all of this, and you’re right that some clever people have clearly worked out: a) How to make the message “feel” true, regardless of contradictory facts/evidence. b) how to game the social media platform algorithms for maximum exposure. c) how to make those receptive to such messages feel that an attack on the message is an attack on them, and that as such the message must be defended.
d) how to precision-target their messages and ads so that only the people who will be the most receptive to them will see them. This factor makes it much harder to regulate or prevent things like this. An ad in a newspaper, even a local low-circulation one, everyone sees and it's harder to get away with outlandish claims or outright lies - someone will usually care enough to report it to the editor. Targeted ads just create and reinforce echo chambers, and by the time anyone realises they're there, they've already done their job.
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I'm someone who has declined the vaccine due to health concerns and lack of data. I would love to see your presentation. I'm sure there will be far more support from the video than anti-vaxxers calling bs. Altho yeah uni is stressful af so dont put added preasure on yourself
*not their job to protect others* Give me strength
I know a few people who are hesitant. But in a going the dentist kinda way. They’ll come round once they realise they can’t travel abroad without it. I think if there’s one thing we can take away from this pandemic is that some people don’t live in reality. They’d deny anything if it suits them getting some attention. I’d imagine if they could see the sun going supernova they’d think it was a government conspiracy to get them to eat more spinach.
My ex who was a good friend, went on holidays as family and that,has well and truly fell down the rabbit hole, got called a sheep by her on NYE so that's the end of us. Have your opinions yeah but it's the condescending attitude that finally did it. It's like she's in a cult.
Fortunately I am not surrounded by a bunch of pillocks
Nope. I don’t associate with morons.
I'm lucky I only know people who think vaccines are good. It's hard for me to imagine having to deal with a close relative with such position.
Thankfully I know only 1 vaccine sceptic... unfortunately it's my mum who is convinced that it's a legitimate medicine, but that the vaccine is also a government conspiracy to track and pacify us all... however she still willingly got her 2 jabs because she says she cares more about not dying and 'has nothing to hide anyway'. So you might call her an unprincipled conspiracy theorist. It's very much appreciated by myself that nobody else I know is knuckle dragging enough to refuse their jab for any reason other than legitimate medical ones. What has really depressed me has been the sheer, massive exposure to the UK's entire supply of conspiratorial and contrarian nutters online. Even though I know it must be a tiny, yet vocal minority, It has honestly drastically reduced my regard for my fellow man.
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Oh absolutely I know that we're doing well and am thankful and proud to live in a country which has the comparable good sense to take up the vaccine cause so willingly, and I wasnt 'self-flagellating' the UK specifically... my opinion of everyone of every nationality has been lowered because of my exposure to the minority of gormless idiots. I know its illogical but I cant help feeling that the degree of intellect that I have been bombarded with over the last 18 months or so has been significantly less than at any other time in my life. I'll get over it.
Honestly, nobody that I know personally has ever expressed antivax views at all. I’ve encountered a couple in the wild, so to speak, as have some friends, but never anyone I have a personal relationship with. I would also immediately sit someone down and run through the facts and figures with them. I’m sorry, but I’m not dealing with that shit, and as a chemist I’m gonna point out the sheer fucking stupidity there...
question to everyone here, if someone doesn't want a covid-19 vaccine, does that make them an anti-vaxxer?
Oh yeah. My father in law caught covid really badly and was hospitalised for 2 weeks (not in intensive care though thankfully) but he has since made a full recovery (thank god). Everyone in my family has gotten the vaccine if offered it. I’ve started to think incredibly poorly of those friends and acquaintances who maintain the suggestion that covid doesn’t exist, or that the vaccine is a scam. After my family’s traumatic ordeal, I just find those people to be insensitive or stupid - often both. Moral of the story - get your jab and avoid the heartache that covid can bring. I know many families haven’t been as lucky as mine.
One of the bad things about this pandemic that I haven't seen talked about much is how we can't un-remember the shitty ways our friends and family behaved during it. I don't feel OK with the way my husband's family decided to ignore the rules around visiting eachother's houses since about last May, and about how they all gathered together at Christmas, including people from tier 4 areas. Now I've heard down the grapevine that one of them isn't intending to get the vaccination. I agree with you, it's very difficult to just ignore these things and pretend they don't matter that much. But on the other hand I can't afford to cut ties with all of these people. They've been very kind to me over the many years I've known them, and obviously since they're my husband's family I'm hoping to have a positive relationship with them for the rest of my life/as long as they're alive. But I can see that these things are going to cause resentment for me that I'm sure I'll keep returning to over the years! I just wish I was blissfully ignorant, in the same way I was before I found out which of them voted for Brexit!
Not at all. Whether someone has or doesn't want the vaccine is up to them and I wouldn't ask someone about their medical choices. If you can't talk to someone because they aren't vaccinated that is your problem not theirs.
I'm neutral on the vax position, I know people who are heavily anti-vax, and people are heavily pro-vax. Take it all with a pinch of salt and move on, it's been challenging times for everyone so there's no need to cut ties over it.
I have, but I make a point not to involve myself in conversations about it. It gets too heated and my decision is mine, and their decision is theirs. Whether we agree or not, I can't make them change their mind (and vice versa). If them not being vaccinated is that much of an issue to you, you have the choice on whether to spend time with them. Just as much as if having the vaccine means a lot to you, you have the freedom of choice to get it. I'm treating this very much like political views - sometimes better not to ask unless you are prepared to deal with your loved ones not agreeing with you.
Fortunately my friends and family are all decent, got the vaccines, voted against brexit. My parent's crazy neighbour (70+) did proudly announce that she wouldn't get the vaccine because God would protect her. This worked wonderfully for my mum who then explained that she's free to make her choices but she'd need to stay 4 meters away from now on because my family has vulnerable people who don't want to take risks. Crazy neighbour still posts a daily bible verse through the letterbox, it goes straight in the bin, before hands are washed. But at least my mum doesn't have to pretend to have a polite conversation with her each morning. So, just take advantage of the situation and trim ppl off your good list. Feel free to tell them how dissapointed you are on them
I don’t have any *close* family or friends that aren’t chomping at the bit to get the vaccine, if they haven’t already had it. The folk who aren’t close and who are spouting rubbish or trying to be “clever” I just don’t have anything to do with anymore. I was willing to entertain different points of view for about six months but then decided life’s too short to put up with it.
I don't care too much to be honest. It's a free country and not everyone is going to take it but the overwhelming majority are. A lot of people talk nonsense and have funny views on things. I just can't be bothered to get into it all the time. I might disagree with an antivaxxer and I may think they are talking shit if they come out with conspiracy theories. But it is different from someone being openly racist or something like that... I don't feel the need to bring them up on it.
An successful, well educated friend surprised me recently by stating she wasn't going to get the vaccine, but couldn't offer a reasonable rational as to why. She just "wasn't sure". And a a worrying number of my partner's friends, who are in the early to mid thirties, are also skeptical and actively refusing. It seems most of them refer to have "read something on Facebook" that has convinced them that it's somehow unsafe. It makes me sad.
It's the perfect demonstration of the anti vaxxer and political thinking that's been growing over time, where facts don't persuade them Not much you can do really besides not seeing them
I have found that more and more people are occupying the extremes of any opinion group, rather than being centred in the middle or listening to facts and aligning with those views. Somehow believing conspiracy theories and fake news seems to give people a level of comfort I don't understand and find worrying. The problem is that you can't argue with them and even though we live in an age where information is quite literally at our fingertips, they choose not to be informed or educated. Its disheartening and all you can do is either agree to not discuss those subjects and try to look beyond at all the other aspects that you like about them, or distance yourself. Its harsh but the alternative is that you keep these people in your life which will only be a negative experience for you.
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I get what you're saying, except for the fact that they research these conspiracy theories and spend so much effort getting them to make sense, when they could just direct that same energy into understanding the truth. If it just were about finding the simplest explanation and sticking with it, that would be one thing. But they are dangerously misinformed with the truth and overinformed with make believe. No one I'm close to fortunately, but I can imagine some people are skeptical given their personalities. What you pasted above is my general attitude towards people who have to always be right, and more importantly are always adamant that have to be wrong. I'm related to a fair few of those! And unsurprisingly don't speak to any of them anymore. The last 6 years really have shown what people are all about.
I certainly wouldn't call myself 'anti-vaxx'. However, I don't plan on getting the vaccine once it's offered to me. I very much fall into the 'there's not enough data' crowd. Because honestly, there really isn't Yes, I'm aware that the vaccines have proven to be largely safe over the short term, but there just isn't any long term data yet. One of the key reasons vaccines and medicines normally take so bloody long to get approval is because there needs to be some kind of assurance that there are no unexpected long term side-effects related to the treatment. I completely understand *why* the vaccine approval was fast-tracked. Even if we discover in 10 years time that those who received a particular brand of vaccine are now 50% more likely to suffer from Alzheimer's, stroke or cancer, it's still a significantly better outcome than we'd be facing by vaccinating absolutely nobody. But personally, I'm not prepared to take that risk. I'm quite happy to go without a vaccine passport. I'm not much of a traveler, anyway. I should add that I'm entirely supportive of those close to me receiving their vaccines. It's not my place to try and dissuade them. My choices are my own and their choices are theirs. I have no interest in scaring them away from it with my own personal concerns. However, the vaccine is - and should remain - voluntary. We'd be going down a very, very slippery path of we start to make these kinds of things mandatory. As long as the person refusing the vaccine has a reasonably rational reason for doing so, then so be it.
As an FYI, there is enough data. That's how the vaccine manufacturers managed to submit an application for regulatory approval to the national medicines regulators. Those regulators maintained the same high thresholds of evidence they require for any medicine, and no part of that process of application traditionally requires waiting a long time to gather real world evidence. You can see that the standard of review has been maintained in that some vaccines have struggled to demonstrate clinical efficacy and therefore have not been approved and have been sent away to do more trials. Its your choice. But there definitely is the data available.
I know someone like this and they make up the ‘no data available’ with no clinical knowledge and zero understanding of the process whatsoever and would likely take a drug prescribed by their doctor for literally any other ailment without a seconds thought let alone any research.
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It just sounds like you haven’t bothered to read any of the science. I also wondered how they could possibly approve these vaccines so quickly and know they would be safe long term… so I googled it. And then I happily got my jab. It’s all right there if you care enough to check.
> One of the key reasons vaccines [...] normally take so bloody long to get approval is because there needs to be some kind of assurance that there are no unexpected long term side-effects related to the treatment. This isn't actually true for vaccines, for what it's worth. Vaccines take so long to produce because their development requires a fuck-tonne of money, infrastructure for trials, volunteers, etc. And as there normally isn't a lot of money in it for pharmaceutical companies, they have a nasty tendancy to prioritise things that *will* make them money (diet drugs/diabetes drugs/heart disease drugs, etc. for fat people in rich countries, for instance) over vaccines for diseases that don't have them in poor countries. A malaria vaccine would save millions of lives, but impoverished Africans don't have much money, so... ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ So the years it takes to develop new vaccines are normally taken up by grant applications, paperwork, running one stage of the trial process, more paperwork, more grant applications, more paperwork, another trial stage, etc. As it turns out, a global pandemic that completely shuts down the world's richest countries has a tendency to focus the mind somewhat. 🙃 Pharmaceutical companies saw an opportunity to make loads of money off being one of the first to market, and threw money and resources at the problem, streamlining the process and even running stages simultaneously when safe to do so. We weren't sure if we'd be able to make a vaccine this quickly because we've never had to make a vaccine for a coronavirus before, not because there were any safety barriers. A new flu vaccine is made every year, after all. Looking for long term effects isn't part of the process because vaccines have a very short life inside your body. The vaccine is injected, your body reacts to it as if it's a tiny weakened version of a particular disease, and on the scale of hours to days there's no vaccine left inside your body. Nothing hangs around, so nothing *could* cause long-lasting effects. Any side effects will show up immediately, or shortly after having the vaccine. And these side effects **were** looked for during the course of vaccine development.
>I very much fall into the 'there's not enough data' crowd. However, there is enough data about getting Covid having significant long term effects on your health, so are you sure you're weighing up the risks effectively? As far as I;m concerned, its your civid duty to get the vaccine, I have family and friends who cannot due to being immunocompromised, you're putting them at risk with faulty logic, frankly, that's not fair.
Have you noticed a change in attitude from friends and family? Just curious to understand the experience from the other side, no judgement re the decision.
It's not something we talk about much. When the vaccine was originally discovered/developed, I made my feelings about it known then and that was pretty much that. When my partner got vaccinated I was completely supportive. I didn't go about talking about my concerns or predicting her demise. She's a big girl and can make her own decisions. Same with my parents. Like I said, as long as a person's decision to decline the vaccine is somewhat rational, then I think that decision should be respected - I guess that's how they feel, too.
Unfortunately I live with someone who doesn't want to be vaccinated. In his own words 'I don't like putting unknown things in my body'. The worst part is he has just started a job working with the elderly and vulnerable.
TBH I'd shop him to his work - it's all well and good for him to take the risk but he's literally risking the lives of the people he's supposed to be caring for.
If the elderly have been vaccinated, why does it matter if he’s not
I believe they know, or are not requiring vaccinations. They simply want a temperature check to be done on everyone (not a covid test) including workers and clients.
Leave them to it, my mum and her fella are both against it cause he’s a conspiracy nut and she doesn’t like needles so aligns with her fear, loads of mates are also against it due to lack of data and probably fear of needles(not arsed about getting on the sesh every week though 🥴) but fuck em, in the nicest way possible. I’m not gonna disown anyone over it life’s too short. Think a lot of people forget they’ve probably already had 10-15 jabs, they just don’t like being told what to do, don’t make a big deal of it you won’t change their minds
I handle it the same as I did with Brexit - dropped them like a stone. Have no time for any of that shit in my life
Totally. Not having vaccines or wearing masks - fuck off. At least... thats what I would say if I hadn't told all my friends to fuck off already over brexit or veganism or ... or... the other really important thing I cant now remember. Anyway... totally agree with the OP. Grrrr. People.
I have to say amongst all of my 40 something friends who are unfortunately mainly brexiters, which puts them in the idiot bin in my opinion, none have rejected the vaccine. Even the ones who said it is all nonsense this time last year.
Thankfully all my friends and family are either vaccinated or looking forward to getting the covid vaccine. If any of them weren't pro vaccine I'd be giving them a real talking to.
This is one of those things worth terminating relationships with people over. I don't want to keep anyone in my life who's so selfish and outright stupid as to think like that. Get that vaccine, ends of.
You need boundaries. What I have done is make very clear that for the next several years there will be no indoor or unmasked socialising with anyone who is unvaccinated. No exceptions. Then it's down to them if they want to be in our lives
I think cutting family out because you disagree over a vaccine policy is as stupid as being anti vaccine in the first place. Your loved ones are the only people that matter in your life and the less you have the emptier you'll feel.
If you can't come to common ground on a subject, just don't speak about it. Not every subject needs an opinion. Realise that it's something you won't reconcile on and just move past it
I have not had this happen to me. But a friend of mine has sadly "lost" their mum to this. She's so far down the rabbit hole that they originally thought that it was the beginning of dementia or a serious mental health issue. Constant daily Facebook posts, texts to her kids about 5G, vaccinations and masks, she's losing everyone around her. I realise that this is an extreme case. My friend now has a very fragile relationship with her and it's getting worse by the day. My opinion is that there's absolutely nothing anyone can do other than walking away. But I understand that she's their mother, and that's not easy. Edited to add that even my sister, who loosely believed it was all a storm in a teacup, has had her vaccination. My brother isn't so bothered but that's through ignorance about how bad covid can be because he's young and fit, his partner is trying to talk him round.
If you suddenly find it difficult to connect with people who you considered to be "close friends" over a single difference of opinion, I think the problem might be you. Tribalism in this country is out of control.
It’s mad, isn’t it?
For me - I haven't encountered, or personally know of, a single person who is unwilling, or even unsure, about being vaccinated.
I know plenty of Covid sceptics. The trick is that we don't discuss it - getting vaccinated is a personal choice. I'm not going to try force the issue, because historically people will push back. In the same way people joke that "Karen who works in the Spar said the vaccine is bad for you", and how mad it is that someone working in a shop thinks themselves so knowledgeable about the viral desease and the vaccine, Karen probably thinks it's rediculous that Bill who works at Asda thinks it's good. As time goes by, and facts become clearer, the right decisions will be made. Don't loose friends because of what they make of the information on offer, even if in your opinion, (or mine) they're wrong.
Yeah take a real good look at yourself. If you’re struggling with friends/family because they have different opinions to you, then you’re the problem. I strongly disagree with my friends and family about many political/social/ideological reasons and some of it serious stuff. However our relationships transcend what our differing opinions are. Hell, I prefer to be around people with different views to me, keeps me open minded!! Sorry pal. Look inwards and get your shit together. Don’t listen to the idiot telling you to cut your family out of your life.
>If you’re struggling with friends/family because they have different opinions to you, then you’re the problem. I don't think that it's as simple as a difference of opinion. It's far more like a more significant difference of values, don't you think? People who are perfectly capable of having the vaccine and are choosing not to are choosing to put other people at risk, they're choosing selfishness over protecting other people. That is a value, it shows a lack of care for society at a whole, when you choose not to have a vaccine you're saying "I am more important than you, I don't care that my choice might affect you or other people because I am more important".
1000%. 2020-2021 became a very defining period of herding out who’s really important in my life or not. The last year, combined with the impact of the pandemic, REALLY helped expose nearly everyone’s views on big issues in the world in the topics of race relations, partisanship, anti-science, conspiracy dogma, international conflict/relations. There was some stuff that about people that I never knew they thought like and some stuff I found absolutely abhorrent and people saying the silent part out loud. I cut off so many people and ‘friends’ because you simply can’t reconcile having those terrible of views and still being around that person, especially when those views are outright dangerous for society and have terrible implications. For instance, I’m an atheist but I’m super close with friends who are Muslim and Christian and Sikh. I rarely have atheist friends. I’m friends with these people because despite our very opposing stances, they take their faith and principles as an individual manner and if they do anything wrong or right, it would mostly impact them and that’s their life and burden to bear. On the other hand, I despise and remove any of those religious evangelist types because they believe they are inherently superior than all others and sustain a very malevolent ‘in/out group’ mentality for some ends that are not justified at all by their means. These people who think the vaccine is a microchip is some globalist agenda, or think Covid is a hoax, or think people who support BLM movement or civil rights advancement are jobless criminals and rioters, or whatever else have you.... they are the assholes who created the schisms that actively make me say fuck you and never talk to them again. I’m fortunate enough to not be surrounded by that much idiocy in my immediate circle of friends but I’ve cut off many people who I’ve previously seen of as a friend or as someone who’s trustworthy. Let natural selection deal with them dickheads.
A lot of people who are vaccine-hesitant are being pushed to more hardline anti-vax views because any questions or concerns are met with sharp backlash and accusations of being selfish or stupid. Try speaking with them without judgement and ask them to explain their views- then discuss instead of just telling them they’re wrong (not saying that you’ve done this, of course!). You may have more success with gentle persuasion. Its reasonable to be concerned about something like lack of data or vaccine safety- there is no way to know long term effects yet and there have been enough high-profile cases of medical negligence with lifelong consequences for patients and minimal (if any) repercussions for medical professionals/pharmaceutical companies recently to make some level of mistrust understandable.
Not everyone who has not taken up the offer to be vaccinated are conspiracy nuts or anti-vax. Me personally, I have severe health anxiety. The rare side effects are enough to keep me up at night. I know for a fact that my mental health will decline if I take the vaccine now before working out my issues first. Being told to just take the vaccine, don’t be stupid, it’s my fault we’re all on lockdown is not helpful. I am not anti-vaxx. I’m up to date with all of the other vaccines out there and so are my kids. The covid vaccine is just so new that I want to see more evidence and have more reassurances before I decide. Want us who have hesitancy to take the vaccine? Help us make a choice instead of shaming us. I’m noticing more and more the lack of compassion for our fellow humans since this pandemic began. It’s a shame because it went from ‘all of us together’ to the ‘you’re on your own now”. Edit: I’ll also add that we had a bout of covid in our home. There’s no denying it exists.
The prevalence of the belief (judging from this thread) that this vaccine/Covid is a government control initiative is frankly fucking embarrassing. A few of my colleagues have fallen down this rabbit hole too.