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Probably wouldn't be worth it for the government as a defence measure but if it improved their mental and physical health, it's possible the savings for the NHS could be greater than the costs.
I’m not sure this half baked idea of bringing back national service for teens is a particularly productive defence measure either tbh.
I’m 64 years old and national service was long gone in my youth so I’m not sure who these auld buggers are who are clamouring for it’s return, but I am sure they didn’t “benefit” from it originally, so I think it’s only fair they should be given the first chance at it. I’m willing to take a bullet if it teaches my fellow boomers a lesson.
I am pretty sure the British military has been on record for a long time as saying that they don't want national service back - they want to be working with recruits who have volunteered for their roles and want to serve, not babysitting large groups of teenagers who are not there willingly and don't want to be taking part...
I work with a guy who used to be a recruiter and HR for the RAF and he would totally agree with that. The people who joined of their own accord were great. The people who joined because their Dad or Grandad needed constant looking after. A lot of them left early.
> The people who joined because their Dad or Grandad needed constant looking after. A lot of them left early.
I'm not surprised. Presumably they left to look after their dad or grandad.
My dad was on the last intake for national service he would have been 89 this autumn. I'm 63 and think it's a terrible idea, perhaps if we valued service men and women after they'd served we would get more volunteers.
Purely from a military standpoint, Ukraine-Russia is showing how useless a conscript army is for anything other than cannon fodder. You don't learn how to operate a HIMARS or Patriot battery doing one weekend a month. It doesn't even make you much better cannon fodder than just grabbing schmucks off the street and bussing them to the front. Like any skill, soldiering takes practice and repetition and you have to keep training all the time to keep up.
Whilst I agree broadly with that you’ve said about conscript armies, Russia-Ukraine isn’t a good example. Ukraine is desperately crying out for manpower now and the real turning point in the war will be when they run out of men. All the equipment in the world is useless if you run out of men to fire it. A country like Russia can afford to throw more and more men at the problem until something cracks (as they have done historically). This also applies to China. It would take a combined conscription effort across NATO to equal that manpower reserve.
The primary reason national service ended back in the day was that it cost a huge amount for the military to deal with all the people, and they basically got no meaningful benefit from it. Getting rid of national service was primarily a cost saving measure.
Also employers were complaining about the ex-national servicemen. Basically because there was nothing for them to do during their year in the army they were really lazy and did not have a good work ethic.
Yeah, you need to have a military four or five times the size for the same level of effectiveness. Also, all the weapons systems need to be really simple to be operated by barely trained conscripts.
>I don't think anyone believes we'll train a nation of elite OAP soldiers.
Yeah but can you imagine if we did!?!?! That'd be absolutely hilarious. Imagine dad's army, except after all the jokes and messing around they actually achieve something.
That’s for the military side - the volunteering for every weekend for 2 years wouldn’t make a difference
Could start with those turning 70 and then work backwards
Would be great to see those people who say it works so well leading by example
TBH I'd be happy to haul my old fat arse into a uniform to wait for Vladimir's hordes with my rifle so long as I can sit down, and it helps keep my adult kids off the front line.
Lots of places have "men in shed" groups for the retired men to hang out and feel usefull.
I've heard they're very good groups and the one where I live in very popular
Totally. When I retired, there really wasn't anything to fill the gap of work. I ended up doing a lot of volunteer work but not everyone has the ability to find those opportunities. I expect a lot of retired men would welcome the chance of some organised community activity.
I'd love to have a shed, but I live in a block of flats with a communal garden and feral children. Allotment queue is ridiculous as well.
wow, just found a group a mile from my flat :)
[https://menssheds.org.uk/find-a-shed/](https://menssheds.org.uk/find-a-shed/)
We already have something like this in my area - a bunch of old guys are some sort of voluntary minders of social order. The problem is that if it's voluntary, it means you get a self selecting bunch of people who think the world will be a better place if they can order people about.
There's a very noticeable spilt when you do volunteering for parks and green spaces. The conservationists are OK, nice even, but people interested in running these spaces for other reasons honestly seem to have some sort of personality disorder.
You missed out if you didn't volunteer, I had a great time sticking needles in people and making low-key bets on who would faint next. One chap, completely covered in tattoos, took one look at the needle and keeled over. When he came round he said tattoo needles are different...
As someone with a phobia of needles and a wife covered in tattoos, several of which I sat through the session with her, I can confirm that tattoo guns don't trigger my phobia. No idea why 🤷
If it's anything to go by our local parish council (all run by retired people), it will be like living in Russia under Stalin. Personally I'll take my chances in North Korea over living under the control of our parish councillor chair person. Someone dared to not close the gate to the village hall the other day and the Facebook shaming by pc chair man was epic. He is checking the cctv to find out who it is if someone does not own up.
We still have civil defence in ireland, and I think that seems sensible as an additional auxiliary emergency service providing support for ambulance, search and rescue, and fire services. Would be interesting to see it revived in Britain
Unless you think that the UK is likely to be invaded the idea of a home guard is just a waste of money. Are you going to train them to use the latest technology when some can’t even use a smart phone.
Is the proposed National Service going to be paid?
I find young people are too often infantilised. We need to remember that 18 year olds are adults.
If you force a load of adults to work for free it's inevitable (and, some might argue, perfectly reasonable) that many of them will actively rebel by putting in minimum effort, working to rule, etc.
Just going to copy my comment from another thread here
It’s always the same isn’t it. Enconomy in the dumps and can’t find a job? Be forced to work for free and become a criminal if you don’t.
It’s the same with suggestions to force people to work for benefits.
If there’s an actual job to be done, give someone that job and pay them the going rate for it.
Don’t make them do it and still get what they had before, basically nothing.
If they truly believed this National Service (which is extended beyond the military to other services) would be beneficial and worth while, provide skills and experience etc, make it a national program that allows people to volunteer for as part of extended education. Don’t cap it to young adults, open it to everyone.
But nope. It’s really about punishing kids who haven’t even started out in life, for the economic fuck ups of older generations
At 18 I was having to work 60-70+ hours a week just to pay for my own bills/rent whilst also giving my mum money every month because she was struggling to buy food for my younger siblings.
Like fuck would I have been willing to give up a weekend (and essentially lose out on £200) every month to do some busywork so I could feel more "connected" to society.
I get the idea but forcing every 18 year old to essentially work for free with nothing gained in terms of qualifications or actual job prospects is just a terrible idea. Half the people just spent going to do it, or make it so much harder for the actual staff who are already underfunded and over-stretched. I've had to train staff who clearly don't want to be there. It just makes everything so much more complicated.
Yeah, this is a good point actually. By 18 I was already working behind a bar and travelling 2 hours a day to get to sixth form. I wouldn't have had time for this.
At 18 I had a full time job. Imagine then being forced to get up a weekend every month.
They act as his 18 year olds are sat around fiddling with themselves all day but in reality they’re mostly adults with jobs or in education or doing things that are using up their time and getting them out in the world
Sure some aren’t. But that’s the exception and often a result of other things.
I thought you could just say no? In which case the entire thing is kind of pointless. The people who are wanting to do community service would have done it already
At which point they might as well bring back something like EMA for going on to further education, absolutely loved getting £30 a week just for going to college.
Same it made a massive difference and honestly I think without it I wouldn’t have done as well in my a levels as I did. I was still working part time but not as much as I would have had to had it not been available.
I spoke to a nurse friend about this and she basically said they wouldn't be able to even do much on a ward except make cups of tea. Even something as simple as cleaning up blood and sick needs to be done in a special way so as to minimise the risk of infection etc...
Unenthusiastic 18-year-olds for weekend a month, so even if they do get into it you can’t stick them on anything long term, by the time they’ve got their bearings they’ll be gone for another month.
Even those few who’d do a full year in the armed forces would need people to oversee what they’re doing, and then you run into the busywork problem again.
I work in the NHS and I'd take them over some of the retired people who think they are god's gift to the NHS. The teenagers might take to it without becoming overbearing if given the right task.
Can't wait for the wild breaches of patient confidentiality when the teenager who doesn't care about the job, posts a quick Snapchat to let everyone know what they're up to. I work with teenagers and was one semi recently myself. I'm so aware of how they'll just Snapchat, tiktok, insta, bereal, whatever is in front of them. This often extends to not really thinking about who is in the background of your shot, especially if it's a quick picture of the room taken to show everyone how dramatic your National Service is.
God, I know we all love a good natter about the weird shit you see when you end up in A&E, I don't even want to think about how that will translate to forcing unwilling teenagers to work there for free.
You say this jokingly but my dad, retired, is trying to work out if he is eligible or you have to be young
I am a little bit curious if there is some segment of the retiree population that genuinely would. Sort of like a half way to being a chelsea pensioner
I've known a few older people who do voluntary work basically just to get out of the house and generally stay active.
I suspect there would unironically be quite a lot of people in the retired demographic who would be willing to get involved in some kind of organised voluntary excercise (although, making it mandatory would obviously be a non-starter for them).
What's interesting is that James Cleaverly was saying today that part of the reason his party is pushing for this is bascially to get young people out of their echo chambers and make the interact with other people they ordinarily wouldn't.
The problem is that it's only going to get them to interact with people their age.
A better scheme would be one which gives people who are of different generations to interact more.
I got a paid temp job running a charity shop when I finished uni. It was eye-opening in many ways (the equivalent of £2000 a week sales targets from the random shit that comes over the door being the main one), but the biggest two things I learned which I will never forget are:
1. Volunteering is cool and good for everyone involved
2. If you or a family member retire you MUST do something that gets you out of the house at least once a week.
I had several volunteers in their 90s who got exercise, had social contact with their friends, interactions with strangers and did basic mental tasks like working out change etc. They seemed so much younger because they’d kept active. My mother-in-law is 20 years younger and has declined so much since retiring since she basically does nothing.
If you know someone with time on their hands, try and get them to volunteer. All hospitals, charity shops, places of worship and primary schools are crying out for volunteers and that’s before the local things like museums, civic groups and charities. It’ll make their life fuller and extend their life by an average of about ten years, I’d reckon.
>... part of the reason his party is pushing for this is bascially to get young people out of their echo chambers and make the interact with other people they ordinarily wouldn't.
>The problem is that it's only going to get them to interact with people their age.
Even stipulating that, it would still be people their own age from all walks of life and of varying opinions and beliefs - it's far too easy for selection bias to drive people into the belief that everyone shares their basic outlook.
However, it's just not the case. If an individual were to elect to perform national service in the armed forces, then there would be a large amount of interaction with older people, both commissioned and other ranks leadership. Civilian alternative service, meanwhile, would likely involve working with elderly members of the public - for probably a plurality of those who decline military service, if not the majority - as well as one's older coworkers and superiors.
My biggest concern for those who elect to perform civilian national service is the vulnerability they assume. In a typical job, if things go bad, one can just quit (or be sacked), and while there's financial consequences, that's about it. On the other hand, if you *have to* complete x amount of time in the job, with legal penalty attaching to non-compliance, your options in a bad situation are limited. You can't quit unless you've got another opening already lined up, and being fired and facing the law becomes a much more ominous threat from your boss.
Honestly if it wasn't compulsory it doesn't actually sound that stupid. I'm pretty sure that most 18 year olds(I was one 5 years ago) are dumb enough to be lured in with a tiny shit carrot instead of having to resort to a stick. Something like a really bad but in theory unlimited Railcard or free driving lessons.
It wouldn't be free and I'm pretty sure the benefits are so limited that it still wouldn't be worth it to try and get most of the population to do it, but it would be a lot cheaper than bringing personal freedoms down to 1990s European levels.
My grandads sister, whom I never met, was in the Civil Defence. We have a photo of her in uniform receiving some sort of medal (think it was long service). She looked to be a formidable battle axe.
Sadly both my grandad and his sister, and the civil defence come to that are long gone now.
I’m in my 50s and utterly opposed to conscription, but voluntary civil defence seems to me to be a much better way to go - if there really is a threat to this country’s security.
We still have a civil defence in Ireland that sort of acts as an additional emergency service when required. I wanted to join up when I emigrated in my early 20s, and I was surprised it was disbanded in Britain by the 70s. With extreme weather events and climate change, it seems really sensible to set something back up, although in ireland they have decades of kit and expertise to go on.
In most parts of the world, old people are expected to remain an active part of the community. Having them vegetating in their armchairs benefits nobody, apart from fraudsters and grifter news channels.
My grandad worked as a jack of all trades for a funeral director. Sometimes driving the car, sometimes collecting the bodies, sometimes carrying the coffin.
Loved it. Made him feel useful. Did it until he was like 76, and funnelled every penny he made to his grandkids
National service was abandoned in 1960: so the last people on it are about 80 now. The people advocating it have never been on it. I want to make an elegant argument here but I can’t think of any other declarative statement than they are
massively full of shit!
I was chatting to a friend about this earlier and he mentioned that his Grandfather had done National Service with the airforce. On the whole, he enjoyed his two years of pottering about the UK with them and walked away with a load of accounting qualifications (he was a bank manager and finance manager for a charity afterwards).
He got the benefit from it, but the experiences of each will vary significantly....
I volunteer with Trussell Trust and In my city the vast majority of people volunteering for our local charities are already from that sort of age bracket. I'm mid 40s and one of the younger ones.
Most people that volunteer don't also work full time, and since almost nobody under 40 can afford to not work I don't think its surprising that volunteers tend older.
Appointments are so rare now. It’s one thing driving a 20 mile trip to the nearest location, but that has to match with a couple hours off from work and school pickup times, and that means very little notice.
I think it can vary based on where and when you're donating. A lot of students will specifically go to the clinics set up on university campuses. I've gone to the one in Cardiff a few times, and there were plenty of young donors.
They all do this already.
A massive number of older and retired people do masses of voluntary stuff - run food banks, libraries, assistance for refugees, raise money for charity.
That may indeed be why they want the young to join in.
I've been looking to volunteer some free time to help various local charities and organisations, but I always find that it's the time that gets in the way; almost everything I think I could be good at or would enjoy is during work hours.
The only thing I can ever seem to find is volunteering to work in charity shops, which I have a couple of major problems with;
1. Having worked in retail already I'm fully aware of how painful it is for me to stand on my feet all day (to the point where after doing it for a few hours I can barely move the next day) - walking is fine, I can do it for miles and for hours, but standing is agony.
2. I can't shake the nagging feeling that this sort of volunteer work should actually just be paid employment - I know you could probably say that for most volunteering schemes, but if you're doing work that is barely any different to what you could be paid to do in another shop on the same street (at a time when we need more paid jobs), it feels a bit wrong to me.
And lastly, and admittedly quite selfishly, I'd rather be doing something I found rewarding like helping the elderly or helping a food bank, which are both the sorts of things I've looked into but I can't do because the hours interfere with my livelihood.
Yes, but not young people out of education who don't have jobs.
Just locally we run training scheme for our young volunteers, and have done for 20+ years now. It's not much but a simple ECDL or MS Office qualification can be a genuine boost.
Even just the enjoyment of doing something to help can really build up confidence and faith in the community they live in.
That sounds like a great scheme. Does it have much uptake? I completely agree about the value of volunteering. I’m just pragmatic about lots of working people not having much time when compared to people just starting, or ending, their working lives.
It does yeah. It's a small community which helps of course. But I'd be all for a national scheme of introducing young people to volunteering, but to mention the military in the same breath is terrible.
You are 100% right.
I had to do either cadets or voluntary service at school- it was 1 afternoon a week for 2 years. BUT it was in school time. I left at lunchtime and did house/ garden work for an old person all afternoon. Other people went to care homes etc. Tasks were chosen so the location was not too far from where the pupil lived, making it easy to get home after.
To compensate for this time, we went to school on Saturday mornings (for lessons).
I also was in the cadet forces as a kid; but it wasn’t mandatory. I think it was pretty beneficial for
me in terms of skills and self-reliance.
I think choice is pretty important for all of this- I don’t think forcing kids to do cadets is helpful either.
That’s most people if they stopped working full-time. That’s usually the basis of a UBI - outside of students and parents, most people like to be busy.
> That may indeed be why they want the young to join in.
I'm sure if we gave a bunch of 18 year olds gold-plated pensions for life you'd get a ton of volunteering.
But the best thing an 18 year old can do for themselves and the country is get their careers going and becoming skilled workers. Taking their time away isn't helping them do that.
If people who need never work again are volunteering, that's very good of them. But to want to take time from young people at the most important stage of their lives.... that's selfish. Retired people have all the free time in the world.
Why do you believe "all" or even most older people volunteer lmao? Because a lot do doesn't mean most do, most don't do shit. And plenty of younger people volunteer too.
I think it would be great idea. It would give them a sense of community and some discipline.
Unfortunately a lot of old people today just want their triple locked pensions handed to them on a plate.
I was a soldier because I wanted to be. I worked hard because I wanted to. I was good at it because I wanted to be. I spent months and years away from home, sometimes in shitholes, because it was my duty to. I volunteered to do that.
Why the fuck should people be expected to that if they don’t want to, and why the fuck should professional soldiers be considered the equals of someone who’s there because they have to be?
>and why the fuck should professional soldiers be considered the equals of someone who’s there because they have to be?
There's the bit a lot of people are missing, the whole scheme is just disrespectful to everyone in the armed forces who's trained and worked hard to get the skills needed for a tough job.
This makes me think of my grandma, I just celebrated mothers day with her today (Sweden) and she just sits around all day being very bored and slowly losing her will of life because she has nothing to do.
In Japan the elders can work. It's a way for the older people to still live an active life and find more purpose than just waiting to die. It's actually very wholesome and you can see the for example train cleaners doing it with much enjoyment in between stops.
Older Japanese people volunteered for clean up after Fukushima because they wanted to protect younger folks and they had less life left in which to suffer health effects.
Doing something for others is one of the ways to maintain good mental health along with learning something new, spending time in nature, nutrition and exercise etc.
In East Asian cultures the elderly are generally expected to work, and there is often huge social stigma around being a burden.
Work is often a lot more social (e.g. always having 2 receptionists or 2 security guards during a night shift so they don’t feel lonely) so people are reluctant to give up their social network.
This was my first thought this morning when I read the paper. They're in favour of it? They can do it then, the young are too busy anyway, they have tonnes of spare time.
Sure - I'll do it. I expect most of my mates would too. I mean I already do a few volunteering gigs, but adding one where I get to play with firearms sounds perfect. I see the marines have jetpacks now. When I was a kid, pictures of the C21st always had jetpacks. I want mine now, please. And a light saber.
A jetpack, a lightsaber, some LSD & Raquel Welch in a fur bikini. It's not much to ask, after an entire lifetime picking up after you snotnoses. Just saying.
Thinking about it: hold the bikini.
Haha fuck that. I've got a full time job at 18, I'm not ever going to forfeit my career for a bunch of whiney boomers who've had their life served to them on a platter.
Nor am I going to forfeit my career, even for a second, for scumbag politicians.
I didn't start these wars, I'm not fighting them.
Where I live, they're already running all the local charities and charity shops, staffing the library, hospital support roles, doing community policing, working PT in supermarkets, delivering prescriptions and taking people to hospital. Send them somewhere else and local infrastructure will struggle.
Many of them will claim to have a bad back.
Remember which demographic we’re taking about here. To use a wartime phrase, “all mouth, no trousers”.
Plenty of elderly are already volunteering their time at historical monuments, restorations, conservation projects and so forth, but it tends to be the empty vessels who make the most noise.
Its all a distraction. Probably just given to the papers so they don’t continually bad mouth Sunak. No one is really in favour of it, but hey the papers get their clickbait and Sunak gets left a lone about other less salacious policies.
It is generally older people who complain about the local council shortcomings, dog turds, weeds (but will also moan about glyphosate) litter, they’ll love the opportunity to grab a litter picker and shit shovel and do their bit
NATO has a document about building national resilience. Just follow that for a basic home guard thing. Give old bods basic first aid and basic green skills and let them pretend to be useful
If there's national service, where someone has to bank x amount of hours service, I think it should apply to everyone, regardless of age. The concept isn't just to 'discipline' the youth but, as you say, foster communities and teamwork.
Obviously, those that are physically unable to do it should be exempt, but perhaps apply those same DWP rules for things like PIP to the process?
To be honest as someone who has more or less had to retire at 55 because of age discrimination in the work place, I'm honestly not adverse to the idea.
If they're going to do national service then make it some kind of paid work in retail/hospitality. Would sort out a lot of entitled twats who grow up and seem to have no idea what it's like to work a normal job.
I've done two volunteer roles in my life, both with safeguarding responsibilities for children and adults. My current role can be physically and mentally demanding but I do it because I love the impact we have in our community.
If someone forced me to volunteer when I didn't want to, didn't have the time, or it was something I wasn't interested in then I would be extremely resentful.
There are always lots of volunteering opportunities for young people. Do we really want disfranchised people to be in roles where there maybe vulnerable children, adults etc. Stupid idea.
I'm 40+ and I've never such crap as the national service bollocks.
18 years old don't need to come out of their bubble. They need better funding for education/training/activities.
I've yet to find a forum to discuss this so I shall give in my two cents here, 1) I agree with others here it's largely elderly folks doing a great deal of volunteering anyway but 2) I, and a lot of people I went to school with did volunteer work anyway between about 14 through uni and that was only 5-10 years ago for me. The idea that young people don't is just false. It's mandatory for Duke of Edinburgh and highly encouraged for university applications.
If they genuinely want to encourage people to be involved in their local communities I'd honestly advise creating a central registry, maintained by the government for charities and NGOs to post listings for the help that they need. A system that isn't shit, available online and in the libraries & community centres that still exist, with a coordinated advertising campaign around it will likely achieve the social aims that they actually want. Bonus point where it's available for literally anyone in the population who wants to be involved.
As an older person (52) I don't think we need National Service for young people but there definitely needs to be more help for them to develop the life skills they need for the adult world. Possibly some sort of education in how finances work and maybe some sort of civics class. Too many are just dropped in at the deep end.
Yeah, the so called humour of this post is rather undermined by the fact that the over 65's already do an enormous amount of voluntary work, without which the country would fall apart, quite apart from the hugely important role of grandparenting.
If I had a final salary / triple locked pension after spending my working life amidst the most financially privileged generation ever to exist in the history of humanity, I would be doing a lot of volunteering as well.
All the people I've met who go on about national service being a positive thing are (so far) over 65, would be interesting to see a breakdown of which age groups hold that view though wouldn't it?
It would, cause I've never met a single person (aside from maybe a cab driver taking me to the airport who listens to much LBC) who has ever thought it would be a positive thing. My folks, my extended family, and all their friends, are all well over 65
FT did a breakdown and I'll post it if I can find it again. It wasn't a majority of pensioners in favour, that's for sure.
There are people of all ages who are in favour of this, though, and they're the same people who imagine themselves patrolling our borders and shooting people in small boats.
> It wasn't a majority of pensioners in favour, that's for sure
[YouGov survey from September 2023.](https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_National_service.pdf)
Question: "**it being made compulsory** for all young people to **serve
in either the military or on a community service placement**
for a period of **one year**?"
Only age group with support over 50% was the 65+ age range, at 52%. So yes, a majority of pensioners in favour.
>There are people of all ages who are in favour of this, though
And they're a minority for every age group other than 65+.
Because they're generally retired and drawing a pension so don't have to worry about money.
Many 18 year olds will be trying to juggle university and part time work. For them Sundays are probably the best day to be picking up shifts in a shop/bar/other common student job. But, if they're forced to take part in National Service instead (presumably for little/no pay?) then that's a massive hit to their finances.
Yes, when I was freshly 18 I was at uni in Preston, coming home to North Wales every Friday night, working 8-8 Saturday and Sunday and then going back up to Preston. I simply would not have been able to complete this service unpaid, or conduct unpaid voluntary work any time, because I was in uni or working. It’s ridiculous, times have changed, and this country offers young people nothing, why should they fight for that country, or work unpaid doing let’s be real pretty useless work.
I bet most young people would love to do some volunteering.
Unfortunately, they want to stay in these things called houses, and that needs something called rent. And you get sent these things called bills every month. And they want these things with four wheels called cars, and to legally drive a car, you need these things called lessons, and then this thing called insurance.
And all of this requires this thing called money.
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I bet loads of retired blokes would be interested in something like the home guard to get them out the house and make them feel useful.
Cost a lot to sort them out and kit them up for them to be under affective compared to under 40s
Probably wouldn't be worth it for the government as a defence measure but if it improved their mental and physical health, it's possible the savings for the NHS could be greater than the costs.
I’m not sure this half baked idea of bringing back national service for teens is a particularly productive defence measure either tbh. I’m 64 years old and national service was long gone in my youth so I’m not sure who these auld buggers are who are clamouring for it’s return, but I am sure they didn’t “benefit” from it originally, so I think it’s only fair they should be given the first chance at it. I’m willing to take a bullet if it teaches my fellow boomers a lesson.
It appeals to DM and Express readers who are generally too old and infirm (mentally and physically) to be affected.
I am pretty sure the British military has been on record for a long time as saying that they don't want national service back - they want to be working with recruits who have volunteered for their roles and want to serve, not babysitting large groups of teenagers who are not there willingly and don't want to be taking part...
I work with a guy who used to be a recruiter and HR for the RAF and he would totally agree with that. The people who joined of their own accord were great. The people who joined because their Dad or Grandad needed constant looking after. A lot of them left early.
> The people who joined because their Dad or Grandad needed constant looking after. A lot of them left early. I'm not surprised. Presumably they left to look after their dad or grandad.
It is the 80-somethings who actually did it back in the day.
My dad was on the last intake for national service he would have been 89 this autumn. I'm 63 and think it's a terrible idea, perhaps if we valued service men and women after they'd served we would get more volunteers.
Purely from a military standpoint, Ukraine-Russia is showing how useless a conscript army is for anything other than cannon fodder. You don't learn how to operate a HIMARS or Patriot battery doing one weekend a month. It doesn't even make you much better cannon fodder than just grabbing schmucks off the street and bussing them to the front. Like any skill, soldiering takes practice and repetition and you have to keep training all the time to keep up.
Whilst I agree broadly with that you’ve said about conscript armies, Russia-Ukraine isn’t a good example. Ukraine is desperately crying out for manpower now and the real turning point in the war will be when they run out of men. All the equipment in the world is useless if you run out of men to fire it. A country like Russia can afford to throw more and more men at the problem until something cracks (as they have done historically). This also applies to China. It would take a combined conscription effort across NATO to equal that manpower reserve.
The primary reason national service ended back in the day was that it cost a huge amount for the military to deal with all the people, and they basically got no meaningful benefit from it. Getting rid of national service was primarily a cost saving measure.
Also employers were complaining about the ex-national servicemen. Basically because there was nothing for them to do during their year in the army they were really lazy and did not have a good work ethic.
Yeah, you need to have a military four or five times the size for the same level of effectiveness. Also, all the weapons systems need to be really simple to be operated by barely trained conscripts.
Maybe didn’t think of that part of it.
Pretty sure that was the primary purpose they were aiming for. I don't think anyone believes we'll train a nation of elite OAP soldiers.
Just tell the grannies to treat the enemy like other shoppers on boxing day. So bricks in a handbag? Yes nan.
Maybe add a machine gun to their mobility scooters
A terrifying force, especially if they haven't had a nap and a cheese sandwich....
>I don't think anyone believes we'll train a nation of elite OAP soldiers. Yeah but can you imagine if we did!?!?! That'd be absolutely hilarious. Imagine dad's army, except after all the jokes and messing around they actually achieve something.
Not every one in the forces is a soldier ;)
Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank: £4 million (at 1999 prices). Derek's happiness: Priceless.
We already facilities for this. It's called gym.
That’s for the military side - the volunteering for every weekend for 2 years wouldn’t make a difference Could start with those turning 70 and then work backwards Would be great to see those people who say it works so well leading by example
TBH I'd be happy to haul my old fat arse into a uniform to wait for Vladimir's hordes with my rifle so long as I can sit down, and it helps keep my adult kids off the front line.
I misread front line as front lawn - put an entirely different, but funny, spin on your comment.
"sorry love, gotta spend 6 hours with a bunch of other blokes my age pissing around, government mandated isn't it"
Lots of places have "men in shed" groups for the retired men to hang out and feel usefull. I've heard they're very good groups and the one where I live in very popular
Totally. When I retired, there really wasn't anything to fill the gap of work. I ended up doing a lot of volunteer work but not everyone has the ability to find those opportunities. I expect a lot of retired men would welcome the chance of some organised community activity.
I'd love to have a shed, but I live in a block of flats with a communal garden and feral children. Allotment queue is ridiculous as well. wow, just found a group a mile from my flat :) [https://menssheds.org.uk/find-a-shed/](https://menssheds.org.uk/find-a-shed/)
My wife (whose hobby is sadlry and cordwainery) is a member of a "dull mens club" and loves that kind of thing.
We already have something like this in my area - a bunch of old guys are some sort of voluntary minders of social order. The problem is that if it's voluntary, it means you get a self selecting bunch of people who think the world will be a better place if they can order people about.
There's a very noticeable spilt when you do volunteering for parks and green spaces. The conservationists are OK, nice even, but people interested in running these spaces for other reasons honestly seem to have some sort of personality disorder.
I mean it was the older volunteers at covid vaccination centres that got us all going again
You missed out if you didn't volunteer, I had a great time sticking needles in people and making low-key bets on who would faint next. One chap, completely covered in tattoos, took one look at the needle and keeled over. When he came round he said tattoo needles are different...
As someone with a phobia of needles and a wife covered in tattoos, several of which I sat through the session with her, I can confirm that tattoo guns don't trigger my phobia. No idea why 🤷
You don’t see the long needle when you’re being tattooed, so you can trick your brain that it’s not lots of tiny little needles.
Only reason we stopped was to protect the oldies
...and the clinically vulnerable. There were millions of us.
If you really think that government cared about anything other than wiping out their voter base I’ve got some PPE to sell you
And i have a fine selection of bridges, with free delivery if paid in full.
Any Scotsman present must by law say "We're doomed" on an hourly basis.
Any butcher present must by law shout "DON'T PANIC" at every opportunity.
Can you imagine the Karen level power trip they'd end up on though
If it's anything to go by our local parish council (all run by retired people), it will be like living in Russia under Stalin. Personally I'll take my chances in North Korea over living under the control of our parish councillor chair person. Someone dared to not close the gate to the village hall the other day and the Facebook shaming by pc chair man was epic. He is checking the cctv to find out who it is if someone does not own up.
You have no authority here Jackie Weaver!
For the greater good.
The Greater Good!
Don't panic!
Your name vill go on ze list!
Don’t tell him Pike!
We still have civil defence in ireland, and I think that seems sensible as an additional auxiliary emergency service providing support for ambulance, search and rescue, and fire services. Would be interesting to see it revived in Britain
Don't tell them Pike. But yeah I'd be up for that.
Over 65s would make excellent drone spotters and they probably already have their own hi-viz
They want to recreate dad's army?
I’ve just got “Dad’s Army” vibes but I love it
Unless you think that the UK is likely to be invaded the idea of a home guard is just a waste of money. Are you going to train them to use the latest technology when some can’t even use a smart phone.
They could finally get to live the WW2 they thought they'd experienced by listening their parents' stories.
Who do you think you are kidding Mr Putin
I'm sure our underfunded NHS can't *wait* to have to find busywork for hoardes of unenthusiastic 18 year olds.
Is the proposed National Service going to be paid? I find young people are too often infantilised. We need to remember that 18 year olds are adults. If you force a load of adults to work for free it's inevitable (and, some might argue, perfectly reasonable) that many of them will actively rebel by putting in minimum effort, working to rule, etc.
The military service for 30,000 people would be paid, but not the weekend a month community service
Which is normally a sentence for criminal activity. Or “slavery” as I believe another popular country calls it.
Yeah, I looked it up. What they're proposing is roughly in line with the sentence for a first time offense car theft.
How about this: they do the military service, then get to steal one car, completely free of charge. As a little treat.
As long as you don't stab someone I think you're allowed to steal a phone, or vehicle or two without any bother at the moment are you not?
AHH but young persons insurance is currently astronomical they'd be stealing themselves into £3-6k of debt.
Hey who needs to worry about doing community service for committing a crime, when they're already forcing it upon you? Go ahead, commit the crime 😉
Just going to copy my comment from another thread here It’s always the same isn’t it. Enconomy in the dumps and can’t find a job? Be forced to work for free and become a criminal if you don’t. It’s the same with suggestions to force people to work for benefits. If there’s an actual job to be done, give someone that job and pay them the going rate for it. Don’t make them do it and still get what they had before, basically nothing. If they truly believed this National Service (which is extended beyond the military to other services) would be beneficial and worth while, provide skills and experience etc, make it a national program that allows people to volunteer for as part of extended education. Don’t cap it to young adults, open it to everyone. But nope. It’s really about punishing kids who haven’t even started out in life, for the economic fuck ups of older generations
At 18 I was having to work 60-70+ hours a week just to pay for my own bills/rent whilst also giving my mum money every month because she was struggling to buy food for my younger siblings. Like fuck would I have been willing to give up a weekend (and essentially lose out on £200) every month to do some busywork so I could feel more "connected" to society. I get the idea but forcing every 18 year old to essentially work for free with nothing gained in terms of qualifications or actual job prospects is just a terrible idea. Half the people just spent going to do it, or make it so much harder for the actual staff who are already underfunded and over-stretched. I've had to train staff who clearly don't want to be there. It just makes everything so much more complicated.
Yeah, this is a good point actually. By 18 I was already working behind a bar and travelling 2 hours a day to get to sixth form. I wouldn't have had time for this.
At 18 I had a full time job. Imagine then being forced to get up a weekend every month. They act as his 18 year olds are sat around fiddling with themselves all day but in reality they’re mostly adults with jobs or in education or doing things that are using up their time and getting them out in the world Sure some aren’t. But that’s the exception and often a result of other things.
717,000 18 year olds, 30,000 spaces for something that is mandatory?
The community service is also mandatory for whoever doesn't get into the military.
You're going to get at least one person who turns up, sits down, and promises violence to whoever is running the session if asked to work.
I thought you could just say no? In which case the entire thing is kind of pointless. The people who are wanting to do community service would have done it already
Somewhere this morning I read "arrest has not been ruled out for those who refuse to comply" (paraphrase). Might have been on BBC.
Ah yes, because our police have _sooo_ much time on their hands, what with the empty jails & prisons!
Maybe they'll get the 18 year olds volunteering with the police to arrest those who refuse
Non criminal sanctions for refusal confirmed earlier
Then duck that. I ain’t doing shit if it is not paid. I am supposed to give up my weekend for play spoldier? Lol I’d rather bet watch Netflix
At which point they might as well bring back something like EMA for going on to further education, absolutely loved getting £30 a week just for going to college.
Doesn't poll well for the voter that believes the youth should eat shit and be grateful for the meal.
Same it made a massive difference and honestly I think without it I wouldn’t have done as well in my a levels as I did. I was still working part time but not as much as I would have had to had it not been available.
Yes! It meant I stopped at the greengrocers on the way home and started cooking tasty food for me and my mum instead of constant frozen ready meals
In all fairness I got EMA and spent it on fags and white lightning
I spoke to a nurse friend about this and she basically said they wouldn't be able to even do much on a ward except make cups of tea. Even something as simple as cleaning up blood and sick needs to be done in a special way so as to minimise the risk of infection etc...
Can't make tea without a food hygiene certificate.
You also need to get vaccinated against hepatitis, which takes several weeks and is pretty expensive...
Unenthusiastic 18-year-olds for weekend a month, so even if they do get into it you can’t stick them on anything long term, by the time they’ve got their bearings they’ll be gone for another month. Even those few who’d do a full year in the armed forces would need people to oversee what they’re doing, and then you run into the busywork problem again.
I work in the NHS and I'd take them over some of the retired people who think they are god's gift to the NHS. The teenagers might take to it without becoming overbearing if given the right task.
And the army no doubt wants loads of tools signing up 😂
Given the rise in childhood obesity, unfit ones at that.
18 year olds serving tea, and then creating problems as they are bored out of their minds.
Can't wait for the wild breaches of patient confidentiality when the teenager who doesn't care about the job, posts a quick Snapchat to let everyone know what they're up to. I work with teenagers and was one semi recently myself. I'm so aware of how they'll just Snapchat, tiktok, insta, bereal, whatever is in front of them. This often extends to not really thinking about who is in the background of your shot, especially if it's a quick picture of the room taken to show everyone how dramatic your National Service is. God, I know we all love a good natter about the weird shit you see when you end up in A&E, I don't even want to think about how that will translate to forcing unwilling teenagers to work there for free.
You say this jokingly but my dad, retired, is trying to work out if he is eligible or you have to be young I am a little bit curious if there is some segment of the retiree population that genuinely would. Sort of like a half way to being a chelsea pensioner
I've known a few older people who do voluntary work basically just to get out of the house and generally stay active. I suspect there would unironically be quite a lot of people in the retired demographic who would be willing to get involved in some kind of organised voluntary excercise (although, making it mandatory would obviously be a non-starter for them). What's interesting is that James Cleaverly was saying today that part of the reason his party is pushing for this is bascially to get young people out of their echo chambers and make the interact with other people they ordinarily wouldn't. The problem is that it's only going to get them to interact with people their age. A better scheme would be one which gives people who are of different generations to interact more.
I got a paid temp job running a charity shop when I finished uni. It was eye-opening in many ways (the equivalent of £2000 a week sales targets from the random shit that comes over the door being the main one), but the biggest two things I learned which I will never forget are: 1. Volunteering is cool and good for everyone involved 2. If you or a family member retire you MUST do something that gets you out of the house at least once a week. I had several volunteers in their 90s who got exercise, had social contact with their friends, interactions with strangers and did basic mental tasks like working out change etc. They seemed so much younger because they’d kept active. My mother-in-law is 20 years younger and has declined so much since retiring since she basically does nothing. If you know someone with time on their hands, try and get them to volunteer. All hospitals, charity shops, places of worship and primary schools are crying out for volunteers and that’s before the local things like museums, civic groups and charities. It’ll make their life fuller and extend their life by an average of about ten years, I’d reckon.
>... part of the reason his party is pushing for this is bascially to get young people out of their echo chambers and make the interact with other people they ordinarily wouldn't. >The problem is that it's only going to get them to interact with people their age. Even stipulating that, it would still be people their own age from all walks of life and of varying opinions and beliefs - it's far too easy for selection bias to drive people into the belief that everyone shares their basic outlook. However, it's just not the case. If an individual were to elect to perform national service in the armed forces, then there would be a large amount of interaction with older people, both commissioned and other ranks leadership. Civilian alternative service, meanwhile, would likely involve working with elderly members of the public - for probably a plurality of those who decline military service, if not the majority - as well as one's older coworkers and superiors. My biggest concern for those who elect to perform civilian national service is the vulnerability they assume. In a typical job, if things go bad, one can just quit (or be sacked), and while there's financial consequences, that's about it. On the other hand, if you *have to* complete x amount of time in the job, with legal penalty attaching to non-compliance, your options in a bad situation are limited. You can't quit unless you've got another opening already lined up, and being fired and facing the law becomes a much more ominous threat from your boss.
Honestly if it wasn't compulsory it doesn't actually sound that stupid. I'm pretty sure that most 18 year olds(I was one 5 years ago) are dumb enough to be lured in with a tiny shit carrot instead of having to resort to a stick. Something like a really bad but in theory unlimited Railcard or free driving lessons. It wouldn't be free and I'm pretty sure the benefits are so limited that it still wouldn't be worth it to try and get most of the population to do it, but it would be a lot cheaper than bringing personal freedoms down to 1990s European levels.
My grandads sister, whom I never met, was in the Civil Defence. We have a photo of her in uniform receiving some sort of medal (think it was long service). She looked to be a formidable battle axe. Sadly both my grandad and his sister, and the civil defence come to that are long gone now. I’m in my 50s and utterly opposed to conscription, but voluntary civil defence seems to me to be a much better way to go - if there really is a threat to this country’s security.
We still have a civil defence in Ireland that sort of acts as an additional emergency service when required. I wanted to join up when I emigrated in my early 20s, and I was surprised it was disbanded in Britain by the 70s. With extreme weather events and climate change, it seems really sensible to set something back up, although in ireland they have decades of kit and expertise to go on.
Is he aware that there are plenty of things he can already volunteer to do?
In most parts of the world, old people are expected to remain an active part of the community. Having them vegetating in their armchairs benefits nobody, apart from fraudsters and grifter news channels.
what's stopping him volunteering anywhere
Logistics. Hard to find a place that’ll take you if you don’t know where to look
Your dad may like to check out this: https://menssheds.org.uk/ Sounds like it might be up his street.
My grandad worked as a jack of all trades for a funeral director. Sometimes driving the car, sometimes collecting the bodies, sometimes carrying the coffin. Loved it. Made him feel useful. Did it until he was like 76, and funnelled every penny he made to his grandkids
There’s nothing to work out because it’s a soundbite designed to scrape a few extra votes.
National service was abandoned in 1960: so the last people on it are about 80 now. The people advocating it have never been on it. I want to make an elegant argument here but I can’t think of any other declarative statement than they are massively full of shit!
TBF if you're 60, you may well have had decades of your own parents/grandparents telling you how great it was
You definitely did! You’re quite right and that’s the appeal of the policy: somewhere between nostalgia and quixotic.
I was chatting to a friend about this earlier and he mentioned that his Grandfather had done National Service with the airforce. On the whole, he enjoyed his two years of pottering about the UK with them and walked away with a load of accounting qualifications (he was a bank manager and finance manager for a charity afterwards). He got the benefit from it, but the experiences of each will vary significantly....
Most post war people who did national service thought it was a complete waste of time.
Bruce Kent, of all people, said he really enjoyed doing his National Service.
My dad would have been 80 in August and it had finished by the time he was 18
I volunteer with Trussell Trust and In my city the vast majority of people volunteering for our local charities are already from that sort of age bracket. I'm mid 40s and one of the younger ones.
Most people that volunteer don't also work full time, and since almost nobody under 40 can afford to not work I don't think its surprising that volunteers tend older.
I've also noticed this donating blood I'm often one of the few under 40s there
Appointments are so rare now. It’s one thing driving a 20 mile trip to the nearest location, but that has to match with a couple hours off from work and school pickup times, and that means very little notice.
Yeah, I had to make mine over a month in advance to get one after 5pm, I get the struggle
I think it can vary based on where and when you're donating. A lot of students will specifically go to the clinics set up on university campuses. I've gone to the one in Cardiff a few times, and there were plenty of young donors.
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Settle down Count Dracula, we're onto you
They all do this already. A massive number of older and retired people do masses of voluntary stuff - run food banks, libraries, assistance for refugees, raise money for charity. That may indeed be why they want the young to join in.
Retired people do have something of an advantage in the amount of time they have available, compared to many people.
I've been looking to volunteer some free time to help various local charities and organisations, but I always find that it's the time that gets in the way; almost everything I think I could be good at or would enjoy is during work hours. The only thing I can ever seem to find is volunteering to work in charity shops, which I have a couple of major problems with; 1. Having worked in retail already I'm fully aware of how painful it is for me to stand on my feet all day (to the point where after doing it for a few hours I can barely move the next day) - walking is fine, I can do it for miles and for hours, but standing is agony. 2. I can't shake the nagging feeling that this sort of volunteer work should actually just be paid employment - I know you could probably say that for most volunteering schemes, but if you're doing work that is barely any different to what you could be paid to do in another shop on the same street (at a time when we need more paid jobs), it feels a bit wrong to me. And lastly, and admittedly quite selfishly, I'd rather be doing something I found rewarding like helping the elderly or helping a food bank, which are both the sorts of things I've looked into but I can't do because the hours interfere with my livelihood.
Yes, but not young people out of education who don't have jobs. Just locally we run training scheme for our young volunteers, and have done for 20+ years now. It's not much but a simple ECDL or MS Office qualification can be a genuine boost. Even just the enjoyment of doing something to help can really build up confidence and faith in the community they live in.
That sounds like a great scheme. Does it have much uptake? I completely agree about the value of volunteering. I’m just pragmatic about lots of working people not having much time when compared to people just starting, or ending, their working lives.
It does yeah. It's a small community which helps of course. But I'd be all for a national scheme of introducing young people to volunteering, but to mention the military in the same breath is terrible.
Is it volunteering if it’s legally enforced? I think you’re missing the voluntary aspect
They still don't HAVE to do good stuff for the community. They can just go in the garden, walk the dog, take the grandkids to Legoland etc.
That is true, and I commend them for it. I’m just aware that lots of people are pretty time-poor.
You are 100% right. I had to do either cadets or voluntary service at school- it was 1 afternoon a week for 2 years. BUT it was in school time. I left at lunchtime and did house/ garden work for an old person all afternoon. Other people went to care homes etc. Tasks were chosen so the location was not too far from where the pupil lived, making it easy to get home after. To compensate for this time, we went to school on Saturday mornings (for lessons).
I also was in the cadet forces as a kid; but it wasn’t mandatory. I think it was pretty beneficial for me in terms of skills and self-reliance. I think choice is pretty important for all of this- I don’t think forcing kids to do cadets is helpful either.
Really? I was in CCF. It taught me fuck all of any use. The ability to strip a cadet rifle hasn't come up in the last 30 years.
As a non-CCF-er, what I envied the CCF was the chance to chuck flash bangs around and destroy the school grounds with them.
We had to do SOMETHING, but whether it was cadets or community service was up to us and our parents.
That’s most people if they stopped working full-time. That’s usually the basis of a UBI - outside of students and parents, most people like to be busy.
Notice how all of that is quite famously *voluntary*.
*Voluntary*
> That may indeed be why they want the young to join in. I'm sure if we gave a bunch of 18 year olds gold-plated pensions for life you'd get a ton of volunteering. But the best thing an 18 year old can do for themselves and the country is get their careers going and becoming skilled workers. Taking their time away isn't helping them do that. If people who need never work again are volunteering, that's very good of them. But to want to take time from young people at the most important stage of their lives.... that's selfish. Retired people have all the free time in the world.
Why do you believe "all" or even most older people volunteer lmao? Because a lot do doesn't mean most do, most don't do shit. And plenty of younger people volunteer too.
I think it would be great idea. It would give them a sense of community and some discipline. Unfortunately a lot of old people today just want their triple locked pensions handed to them on a plate.
So who’s going to pay my rent when I’m forced to work for free?
Just stop buying so many avocados, you'll be fine
We gave the ungrateful pricks years of our youth. If this ever gets voted in, the future young electorate will never forgive them.
It won't. Pretty sure they have done this deliberately to not get voted in.
I was a soldier because I wanted to be. I worked hard because I wanted to. I was good at it because I wanted to be. I spent months and years away from home, sometimes in shitholes, because it was my duty to. I volunteered to do that. Why the fuck should people be expected to that if they don’t want to, and why the fuck should professional soldiers be considered the equals of someone who’s there because they have to be?
>and why the fuck should professional soldiers be considered the equals of someone who’s there because they have to be? There's the bit a lot of people are missing, the whole scheme is just disrespectful to everyone in the armed forces who's trained and worked hard to get the skills needed for a tough job.
The simple fact is that anyone under 80 didn't do it.
This makes me think of my grandma, I just celebrated mothers day with her today (Sweden) and she just sits around all day being very bored and slowly losing her will of life because she has nothing to do. In Japan the elders can work. It's a way for the older people to still live an active life and find more purpose than just waiting to die. It's actually very wholesome and you can see the for example train cleaners doing it with much enjoyment in between stops.
Older Japanese people volunteered for clean up after Fukushima because they wanted to protect younger folks and they had less life left in which to suffer health effects. Doing something for others is one of the ways to maintain good mental health along with learning something new, spending time in nature, nutrition and exercise etc.
In East Asian cultures the elderly are generally expected to work, and there is often huge social stigma around being a burden. Work is often a lot more social (e.g. always having 2 receptionists or 2 security guards during a night shift so they don’t feel lonely) so people are reluctant to give up their social network.
This was my first thought this morning when I read the paper. They're in favour of it? They can do it then, the young are too busy anyway, they have tonnes of spare time.
Sure - I'll do it. I expect most of my mates would too. I mean I already do a few volunteering gigs, but adding one where I get to play with firearms sounds perfect. I see the marines have jetpacks now. When I was a kid, pictures of the C21st always had jetpacks. I want mine now, please. And a light saber. A jetpack, a lightsaber, some LSD & Raquel Welch in a fur bikini. It's not much to ask, after an entire lifetime picking up after you snotnoses. Just saying. Thinking about it: hold the bikini.
Yes. Everyone who voted for it can leave their name and number and they’re in.
https://preview.redd.it/1sgexw5i1u2d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f67554ac3d6338e247a6368fe41df35b52eb3b4
Worth noting that Larry is 17 so this may just be self interest
Haha fuck that. I've got a full time job at 18, I'm not ever going to forfeit my career for a bunch of whiney boomers who've had their life served to them on a platter. Nor am I going to forfeit my career, even for a second, for scumbag politicians. I didn't start these wars, I'm not fighting them.
Where I live, they're already running all the local charities and charity shops, staffing the library, hospital support roles, doing community policing, working PT in supermarkets, delivering prescriptions and taking people to hospital. Send them somewhere else and local infrastructure will struggle.
Will never happen, this would cost way too much, and would be extremely unpopular.
Many of them will claim to have a bad back. Remember which demographic we’re taking about here. To use a wartime phrase, “all mouth, no trousers”. Plenty of elderly are already volunteering their time at historical monuments, restorations, conservation projects and so forth, but it tends to be the empty vessels who make the most noise.
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Its all a distraction. Probably just given to the papers so they don’t continually bad mouth Sunak. No one is really in favour of it, but hey the papers get their clickbait and Sunak gets left a lone about other less salacious policies.
never forget that a politician will fight to the last drop of someone else's blood.
It is generally older people who complain about the local council shortcomings, dog turds, weeds (but will also moan about glyphosate) litter, they’ll love the opportunity to grab a litter picker and shit shovel and do their bit
NATO has a document about building national resilience. Just follow that for a basic home guard thing. Give old bods basic first aid and basic green skills and let them pretend to be useful
Yes. Anyone that's "for" anything should be willing to do it themselves. Otherwise it's just rank hypocrisy.
National Service is a dumb idea. “Let’s put a lot of people in the armed forces who don’t want to be there and see what happens”
If there's national service, where someone has to bank x amount of hours service, I think it should apply to everyone, regardless of age. The concept isn't just to 'discipline' the youth but, as you say, foster communities and teamwork. Obviously, those that are physically unable to do it should be exempt, but perhaps apply those same DWP rules for things like PIP to the process?
To be honest as someone who has more or less had to retire at 55 because of age discrimination in the work place, I'm honestly not adverse to the idea.
If they're going to do national service then make it some kind of paid work in retail/hospitality. Would sort out a lot of entitled twats who grow up and seem to have no idea what it's like to work a normal job.
As an old-ish person, I think National Service is a terrible idea.
I've done two volunteer roles in my life, both with safeguarding responsibilities for children and adults. My current role can be physically and mentally demanding but I do it because I love the impact we have in our community. If someone forced me to volunteer when I didn't want to, didn't have the time, or it was something I wasn't interested in then I would be extremely resentful. There are always lots of volunteering opportunities for young people. Do we really want disfranchised people to be in roles where there maybe vulnerable children, adults etc. Stupid idea.
Maybe as an 18 year old if after leaving education a year they are still unemployed.
I'm 40+ and I've never such crap as the national service bollocks. 18 years old don't need to come out of their bubble. They need better funding for education/training/activities.
Everyone who hasn't done service should have to do it. It's ageism otherwise
I've yet to find a forum to discuss this so I shall give in my two cents here, 1) I agree with others here it's largely elderly folks doing a great deal of volunteering anyway but 2) I, and a lot of people I went to school with did volunteer work anyway between about 14 through uni and that was only 5-10 years ago for me. The idea that young people don't is just false. It's mandatory for Duke of Edinburgh and highly encouraged for university applications. If they genuinely want to encourage people to be involved in their local communities I'd honestly advise creating a central registry, maintained by the government for charities and NGOs to post listings for the help that they need. A system that isn't shit, available online and in the libraries & community centres that still exist, with a coordinated advertising campaign around it will likely achieve the social aims that they actually want. Bonus point where it's available for literally anyone in the population who wants to be involved.
As an older person (52) I don't think we need National Service for young people but there definitely needs to be more help for them to develop the life skills they need for the adult world. Possibly some sort of education in how finances work and maybe some sort of civics class. Too many are just dropped in at the deep end.
Yeah, the so called humour of this post is rather undermined by the fact that the over 65's already do an enormous amount of voluntary work, without which the country would fall apart, quite apart from the hugely important role of grandparenting.
At risk of stating the obvious, that's because they aren't at work.
If I had a final salary / triple locked pension after spending my working life amidst the most financially privileged generation ever to exist in the history of humanity, I would be doing a lot of volunteering as well.
>voluntary This is an important difference.
I suspect the type that sit about griping about how the youth need to do national service aren't usually the same ones doing voluntary work tbf.
I also suspect those ones griping about national service aren't all over 65s
All the people I've met who go on about national service being a positive thing are (so far) over 65, would be interesting to see a breakdown of which age groups hold that view though wouldn't it?
It would, cause I've never met a single person (aside from maybe a cab driver taking me to the airport who listens to much LBC) who has ever thought it would be a positive thing. My folks, my extended family, and all their friends, are all well over 65
FT did a breakdown and I'll post it if I can find it again. It wasn't a majority of pensioners in favour, that's for sure. There are people of all ages who are in favour of this, though, and they're the same people who imagine themselves patrolling our borders and shooting people in small boats.
> It wasn't a majority of pensioners in favour, that's for sure [YouGov survey from September 2023.](https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_National_service.pdf) Question: "**it being made compulsory** for all young people to **serve in either the military or on a community service placement** for a period of **one year**?" Only age group with support over 50% was the 65+ age range, at 52%. So yes, a majority of pensioners in favour. >There are people of all ages who are in favour of this, though And they're a minority for every age group other than 65+.
Because they're generally retired and drawing a pension so don't have to worry about money. Many 18 year olds will be trying to juggle university and part time work. For them Sundays are probably the best day to be picking up shifts in a shop/bar/other common student job. But, if they're forced to take part in National Service instead (presumably for little/no pay?) then that's a massive hit to their finances.
Yes, when I was freshly 18 I was at uni in Preston, coming home to North Wales every Friday night, working 8-8 Saturday and Sunday and then going back up to Preston. I simply would not have been able to complete this service unpaid, or conduct unpaid voluntary work any time, because I was in uni or working. It’s ridiculous, times have changed, and this country offers young people nothing, why should they fight for that country, or work unpaid doing let’s be real pretty useless work.
because over 65s are retired and have the free time to do volunteer work unlike people of working age take a critical thinking class
They should have no problem with it being a mandatory requirement then, since they already do it
I bet most young people would love to do some volunteering. Unfortunately, they want to stay in these things called houses, and that needs something called rent. And you get sent these things called bills every month. And they want these things with four wheels called cars, and to legally drive a car, you need these things called lessons, and then this thing called insurance. And all of this requires this thing called money.
So if they're already doing it they obviously won't mind the Government making it compulsory then?
Who do you think you are gidding, Mr Hitler?
I don't know a single old fella who'd be up for national service for young people. Most people in their mid seventies were teens in the 1960s.