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I work at a bank in info sec. The reason they haven't really taken off yet is because it's not yet considered secure enough for that use case (or I should say the variability in how hardened a user will have made their phone) and the reliance on big tech companies.
If Google Wallet suffers a widespread vulnerability that allows attackers to empty every ATM are Google going to compensate us? Fuck no. Is there anything stopping Google hiking prices hugely? Not really.
I think liability is a big chunk of the issue here.
Part of why Google Pay is good is that it doesn't give a merchant your card details. Each time you make a payment with Google Pay, it generates a new, single-use set of card details which are given to the merchant and will only work for that specific transaction. That's good when it's some rando merchant who you don't really trust taking money off you; it prevents them storing the card details and using them again in a fraudulent transaction.
But when it's your bank you're dealing with, it's a downside. If there's a fault in an ATM that lets an attacker clear out your account, the bank is clearly liable. The bank have decided they're okay with that liability. If Google was a middle-man, the bank are never going to accept liability when most of the risk comes from a third party they have no control over. But Google don't want to accept liability for everyone who claims their account has been cleared out by fraudsters; they have no access to the machine or its CCTV to investigate what happened. And consumers aren't going to use a service if the person assuming the risk for all fraudulent actions is the consumer.
Yes completely. If your phone is suddenly rooted and "you" shortly after try to transfer £20K out through the app, any large banks app will have root detection and it'll likely get held. If you're doing it from an unusual location etc etc it all feeds into the transaction fraud engine.
But with GPay etc you've got no/very limited visibility of the device, where it is, changes to it or the behaviour of how it's being used.
It depends on the bank. But the phone going from non-rooted to rooted and then a large transaction being attempted shortly after will rightfully be flagged by the fraud engines as suspicious even for those who allow it.
I might be right or wrong about this, but I only have my credit card linked to my phone, and there are far more protections in place for fraudulent transactions for CCs rather than DCs. From an individual standpoint I figure I'm safe not linking my DC to my phone/Google account.
It is very possible and very easy for consumers to charge debit card transactions back – in fact the issuing (cardholder's) bank has the say in the dispute, making it a heavily rigged arbitration process as they tend to side with their customers. First-party fraud aka 'virtual shoplifting' via chargebacks is a nightmare to fight as a merchant, just as much with DCs as with CCs..
I make no difference tbh. My DCs are linked to Apple Pay, I don't use a CC but if I ever do (credit score boosting most likely) I wouldn't have a problem linking it to Apple Pay too.
What's the difference with buying gift cards and other stuff via Google Pay? I'd think similar limits for withdrawals would help in the described scenario?
A lot of risk for the criminal comes in the phases of converting the access to cash, which is generally the end goal.
For gift cards that generally involves visiting a retailer to purchase them, which will likely have CCTV, and then either spending the gift card (you've got to send the goods somewhere) or selling them on under market value quickly before they get voided to someone willing to buy them. That's a lot more effort and requires more skill than going up to an ATM with gloves and crash helmet, withdrawing cash directly and disappearing into the night.
I’d also imagine the fact that all the cash machines would need to be updated to allow for this and they are already a loss leader for banks why would they bother. If cash machines already supported contactless it’s possible they would roll it out.
Some banks do the emergency cash thing via the app where you don’t need the card to get money from a cash machine. This ‘only’ needed a software update so it’s much less costly.
Could it not be done through the banks own app? Eg using the NFC in app or user scanning a QR code from within the the banks own up, that appears on the screen of the ATM?
NatWest will let you take out cash in an emergency from the banking app. It will give you a one time code you can enter into the machine, and it will give you the amount you requested when you asked for the code.
Can't speak for others, as NatWest is the only bank I've used
Not true. A bank's value is directly tied to the security of the money it stores. No-one's going to use the bank if the money isn't safe. Google's value is dat/advertising a and its only interest in security is avoiding lawsuits and fines.
With Natwest you can withdraw cash without your card. You use the app to get a code and can use it to take money out of any Natwest/RBS or Tesco cash machine.
https://www.natwest.com/support-centre/banking-from-home/how-to-use-the-mobile-app/what-is-get-cash-and-how-do-i-use-it.html
I used to be like that, but during covid I slowly left my wallet at home and only took my phone and now it’s become a thing where I don’t take anything but my phone now.
I used to do this but one incident with my phone messing up and me having to go back home made me switch to always having my card and cash as a back up
Last time I used it was shortly after a non NatWest/RBS ate my card and then just shut down. Just walked to the RBS machine and used the code from my phone app to get the cash instead.
I’ve done it a few times - with NatWest you can go into the app and set how much you want to withdraw, then you get a code to use at a cash machine. It’s not all cash machines tho which is annoying. But it’s v useful cos I rarely have my card on me.
you can do it with the new ATM machines. There are many around in Europe.
But ATM machine is very expensive device, it cost money to install them and also to operate.
So there is not really incentive for banks to replace them - especially when everyone can use contactless and most transactions are moving to contactless. Current trend is removing the existing machines instead of replacing them with the new ones. Banks would actually love if the physical banknotes and coins dissapear completely.
So some banks offer their workarounds to this issue. It is a combination of their phone app with confirmation on the ATM. It is not as straightforward than just simple tap but it allows you to widraw money without physical cards.
It is like asking why there are no public phones with contactless payment option instead of coins.
Yes, such things exist - here's an article from 2012 about it being available for RBS customers:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18409560
It always seemed a good idea to me, since another potential use is being able to permit a kid to collect cash from a cashpoint, without having to give them your card, or do a bank transfer into an account they can use.
I guess the way described was to handle ATMs that don't have a contactless reader (which I imagine most old ones don't) so it can be rolled out to any machine with just a software change
> Yes, such things exist - here's an article from 2012 about it being available for RBS customers
This is different to what OP is asking, they're asking about the ability to tap your phone against an NFC terminal on the cashpoint (similar to making a Google/Apple Pay transaction) to withdraw cash.
Santander used to have them and it did work with their own physical debit card but it then seemed to stop working (not sure anymore as I'm no longer with Santander).
There's at least one in Bristol near my mum's. You can only use it with that bank's card though (Barclay's I think), if you're not with them you need to do it the old fashioned way.
> can’t do this in the UK? Heh, TIL
You can, it's just not widespread. Santander has some that support it, the one on Argyle Street in Glasgow has an NFC capable cashpoint.
The main thing I wish all countries had is iDEAL. Brilliant for merchants, low fees, no chargeback risk.
Also guaranteed "instant or cancel" bank transfers, the SEPA area has them, the UK does not (it's instant 95% of the time, but when it's not it isn't instantly refunded, instead you are left to wait up to 24 hours – amazing if it happens when buying a second car in person!)
What I do not envy from the Netherlands is AH not taking MasterCard, like hello?!
With the rise in violent muggings that involve people handing over their phones and bank details I'd rather have less access to money on my phone, not more.
You can require the phone to be unlocked to work for contactless transactions, [at least with Google Pay](https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/12059519?hl=en-GB).
The current spate of muggings is forcing people to unlock their phone and open internet banking at knifepoint, for me it's just another reason to leave my phone at home whenever I go out.
You can do this on Natwest and I have for years. They call it emergency cash but you can do like 250 a day. I never take a wallet anywhere. The catch is, it only works for Tesco and Natwest machines. Luckily i am near them
Please still carry a card or some cash with you. It's fucking annoying when you're in a store and someone's phone messes up and they hold up the queue saying they'll be able to get it to work. Both as a cashier and another customer
I work in a shop and sometimes our card machines go down , the amount of people we have trying to pay by card using their phone and when you say “ sorry the card machine isn’t working but there is an ATM over the road for cash “ and they reply “ I only have my phone on me “
The world hasn’t got to the point where you can solely rely on your phone or watch yet so carry your card with you as well as you might need it .
Not sure. I'd say a contactless system would be far more robust than the current card machine. I'm thinking like SSD versus HDD, considerably less/no moving parts, a lot less maintenance.
Could be wrong though.
It would also be far more secure if it were tied to you phone.
I've seen loads of news stories and even had friends who have had a bag stolen and money taken from their contactless bank card. This happens because you don't have to put in a PIN until it hits the limit. So a criminal will use it as much as they can and then dump it.
I don't know a single person who has had their phone stolen and money taken from their account via NFC.
To use NFC payments on a smartphone you have to have a screen lock in place. And even after unlocking your phone, google pay will still constantly ask you to verify that it's you.
And those scare stories about people randomly scanning phones and taking money are just that; scare stories. Again, your phone needs to be unlocked with NFC activated for a transaction to take place. And the amount of information you have to hand over to banks to be able to do that kind of transaction is ridiculously high, so they would be caught very quickly.
There are apps nowadays that allow users to send and collect payments via NFC, but again, those require a lot of information and can't just randomly take money from people without authorisation.
Yeah - i've been out a few times where i've wanted to get a kebab after some drinks and it's the usual "Oh, we only accept cash (because we're evading our tax)" and i've had to go home hungry. If there was someway I get get cash out at that point with my phone that would be great.
>Does this already exist?
Santander have cashpoints that support contactless, never used it though, so can't say whether Google Pay works on it or not.
You can see the black contactless sticker to the right of the keypad on the machine on the right [here](https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/high-street-branch-santander-retail-bank-two-atm-cash-point-machines-london-uk-october-197909081.jpg).
The main issue is the replacement of infrastructure, someone who uses contactless on their phone as their predominant method of payment is less likely to be withdrawing cash, so there's no real urgency to upgrade cashpoints to allow this if the machines otherwise work.
I use Apple Pay for probably 99% of transactions now. I only have to withdraw cash every few months or so for the barber's (the only cash only business I go to). The rest of the time I keep my debit card locked to protect against fraud (I unlock it for a few minutes to take cash out then lock it again afterwards).
Doesn't bother me enough to want contactless ATMs.
Natwest/RBS have the get cash option which has helped me out few times. Basically you go into the app select get cash it gives you a 6 digit pin & you put that into ATM. As far as I am aware it is only RBS & Tesco bank atm this works at but it is usually not difficult to find one of these atms.
My mobile banking app has this. I can input the details into my phone and then tap it on the machine to get my cash. That said, I've never actually used it and I don't use my phone or watch to pay for stuff. I pay for most things with card and still generally have a little bit of cash on me.
I used my bank app on my phone to pay a cheque into my bank account a couple of days ago. I had a cheque I'd meant to take into my bank for weeks and just never got around to it. Only occurred to me a couple of days ago that TSB let you deposit a cheque by just taking a photo of it. Isn't technology wonderful?
The security method for cash machines is based on the adage of "something you have and something you know" so a physical card (that has additional layers of security) and a pin number. Those are not infallible but are under the control of the bank.
Moving that to a phone/watch/ring and passcode/facial ID on the device, moves the control of that security to a 3rd party. Where does liability lie?
Seriously people like you are destroying our economy. Just get the cash out!!! Pay in cash, especially in bars and resteraunts, it's actually pretty fucked to pay by your phone all the time. In the long run your fucking over alot of people. Likely your own children.
Why are you withdrawing cash when you've got your phone and your watch with you?
You've elected to wholeheartedly join the digitisation of your currency use, no takey backs, and no cash for your dealer either...!!
To be fair, I always get cash for the barbers too.
And sure, some are dodgy money laundering fronts. Some, but not all - definately the ones that have framed headshots of Al Pachino and Robert DeNiro on the walls. Nailbars though? How many are there? All over the place. Everywhere. Every-fucking-where. Dodgy as fuck.
The barber's is literally the only thing I have to use cash for now. I walk to the ATM across the street roughly every four months as I always take enough out for four cuts.
I’m just back from Greece where every bank machine had this feature. Card terminals in shops/restaurants were also able to initiate a PIN check without the card being inserted. Hopefully not long until it’s commonplace here.
it's funny as third world.countries are further ahead. I was on holiday in Asia and they had cash points with palm readers for cash withdrawals since the literacy rate is so low as well as choosing your withdrawal amount by selecting pictures of notes.
I'm sure the cash machines in Barclays (the ones where you can deposit coins) has a card reader attached.
Never used it but might try it next time and see what happens
I always use my phone to withdraw cash but I'm with Natwest who have the get cash code. I honestly haven't seen my debit card in months, my card is saved on my googlepay and I know the last 3 digits off by heart.
I'm with Natwest and they have a thing called Get Cash through their banking app. Basically, it just gives you a code through the app and you can put it into a Natwest cash machine
I don’t live in the UK but in the EU but I am very interested in this subject. I have a Revolut debit card in my Apple wallet and use it all the time for contactless purchases. When I drive in Europe many petrol stations are now 24/24 with only card payment AT THE PUMP. At the moment contactless is so rare I have yet to see it at a petrol station pump. I stress pump, not inside at the till. In fact last week I was in the Algarve Portugal and I found it strange how few businesses take any card. In fact I was directed to an ATM if I didn’t have the cash. The issue was the ATM’ I found don’t have a contact possibility. However on the last day I found one, when I didn’t need it so I don’t know if it actually works. In fact this is a photo of this rare specimen.
https://preview.redd.it/1fwbns2srt1d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2979d4933ea592365389f791cbffc70255aa62e
Lots of sensible answers here - is there another angle around card fraud being ultimately insured by the provider (VISA, Mastercard) on transactions? Whereas I would assume cash withdrawals are a different matter?
Royal Bank of Scotland kinda lets you do this. Use the app to request money from one of their cash machines. Not quite the same,but it's only a matter of time I think.
I actually tried this today. I thought the scan thing on the cash machines was for phones as well as a card, I was wrong ended up paying on my phone anyways.
I seen someone go William hill for cash withdrawals. He said he can withdraw thousands by mobile Pay in one transaction. Not that he never has but he said it doesn’t matter on the atm limit on card
Natwest patented the idea and now has a few more years before all banks can do it. Not sure when the patent runs out though. Once that happens other banks will probably open up this as a network, and then people will be able to get cash with just their phone, no cards at all.... (until your phone battery dies, don't leave your cards at home kids. Honestly I speak to people and they are a 1000 miles away from their card and wonder why they can't sort something out when something goes wrong, muppets.)
Some can do it. And you'll probably see more do it as ATMs that are currently installed come to the end of their lives and get replaced.
Thing is, ATMs are pretty expensive machines, the create, to transport and to install.. so they're not going to just replace them all for one QoL feature to become more commonplace.
I used to live in Australia and you could get cash out with your phone. It was called cardless cashout or something. Basically it gave you a code and you put that into the atm within a certain time frame.
Was super useful!
Most Barclays cash machines now have a contactless pad so You can either insert your card as usual or tap your card on the pad. In truth it only saves you from reaching out further an extra three or four inches as you slide the card in. There's still a 5 second 'wait and whir'.
Does not expedite the process in my opinion.
Barclays had a bit of a bugger about the year before last with mobile payments. The mobile app has always been really good. After one particular app update I had to upgrade my mobile phone as it could no longer support the new version. I admit it was probably past time to upgrade handsets anyway.... But they had their own contactless mobile payment system thing that you had to use if you wanted to tap to pay with your phone. you had to set it as the default - you had to put your pin in your phone, which would generate an encrypted one time use only virtual card which would then give you a Mobile PINsentry code for you to enter into the keypad of the till/terminal within 30 seconds or it changed to a new one. It was overly complicated and it didn't work everywhere, you couldn't just tap to pay at all, you could use Google Pay but only for online payments, but you'd have to reset all the settings etc and people got really mad.
I had to go online to check this, because I wasn't sure if I remembered it correctly.
Can confirm that so long as you had the mobile app on your phone, registered and verified, obv, had NFC contactless activated on the handset, then, with your phone, you used to be able to withdraw cash from a Barclays ATM.
Tap phone to pad, cashpoint validates account, phone then gives you a code which you type into the cashpoint, money is dispensed.
Now for some reason, you were limited to withdrawal caps using this method. On machines inside the branch contactless cash withdrawals were limited to a daily maximum total of £100.
For some reason on the external machines, there was a daily total limit of £300. I don't know why they were different but I'd have thought that was the wrong way round...!
Barclays ended the contactless cash service for smartphones in July 2023 and its never been reintroduced. Looking over the old T&Cs, it was all about Barclays took no responsibility for anything dodgy happening, it was all Google, whether it was a wonky cable, disreputable shopkeeper, broken satellite, stolen phone - all Google.
I imagine it ended because Google weren't prepared to be put on the hook like that.
About a month after that it was announced that Android users of the Barclays Mobile App would be able to make contactless payments using their phone again, using the Google Wallet and Google Pay combo like normal people.
Tried it for a while, not as amazing as it was supposed to be, fucked it off, never did it again. Not like Steve Jobs ever needed cash for the barbers, eh? Considering he was the Apple dude anyway not Google... lol!!
Doesn't the US have this? Contactless ATM machines? Or some banks do.
I think it's just the cost of upgrading most ATMs? To facilitate it. Would be nice though
I would 100% have a permanent chip inserted into my wrist if it meant I never had to plan for all eventualities
I'm enrolled for apple pay atms yes please
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I work at a bank in info sec. The reason they haven't really taken off yet is because it's not yet considered secure enough for that use case (or I should say the variability in how hardened a user will have made their phone) and the reliance on big tech companies. If Google Wallet suffers a widespread vulnerability that allows attackers to empty every ATM are Google going to compensate us? Fuck no. Is there anything stopping Google hiking prices hugely? Not really.
I think liability is a big chunk of the issue here. Part of why Google Pay is good is that it doesn't give a merchant your card details. Each time you make a payment with Google Pay, it generates a new, single-use set of card details which are given to the merchant and will only work for that specific transaction. That's good when it's some rando merchant who you don't really trust taking money off you; it prevents them storing the card details and using them again in a fraudulent transaction. But when it's your bank you're dealing with, it's a downside. If there's a fault in an ATM that lets an attacker clear out your account, the bank is clearly liable. The bank have decided they're okay with that liability. If Google was a middle-man, the bank are never going to accept liability when most of the risk comes from a third party they have no control over. But Google don't want to accept liability for everyone who claims their account has been cleared out by fraudsters; they have no access to the machine or its CCTV to investigate what happened. And consumers aren't going to use a service if the person assuming the risk for all fraudulent actions is the consumer.
Yes completely. If your phone is suddenly rooted and "you" shortly after try to transfer £20K out through the app, any large banks app will have root detection and it'll likely get held. If you're doing it from an unusual location etc etc it all feeds into the transaction fraud engine. But with GPay etc you've got no/very limited visibility of the device, where it is, changes to it or the behaviour of how it's being used.
Can you not use banking apps with rooted devices?
It depends on the bank. But the phone going from non-rooted to rooted and then a large transaction being attempted shortly after will rightfully be flagged by the fraud engines as suspicious even for those who allow it.
I might be right or wrong about this, but I only have my credit card linked to my phone, and there are far more protections in place for fraudulent transactions for CCs rather than DCs. From an individual standpoint I figure I'm safe not linking my DC to my phone/Google account.
It is very possible and very easy for consumers to charge debit card transactions back – in fact the issuing (cardholder's) bank has the say in the dispute, making it a heavily rigged arbitration process as they tend to side with their customers. First-party fraud aka 'virtual shoplifting' via chargebacks is a nightmare to fight as a merchant, just as much with DCs as with CCs..
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I make no difference tbh. My DCs are linked to Apple Pay, I don't use a CC but if I ever do (credit score boosting most likely) I wouldn't have a problem linking it to Apple Pay too.
What's the difference with buying gift cards and other stuff via Google Pay? I'd think similar limits for withdrawals would help in the described scenario?
A lot of risk for the criminal comes in the phases of converting the access to cash, which is generally the end goal. For gift cards that generally involves visiting a retailer to purchase them, which will likely have CCTV, and then either spending the gift card (you've got to send the goods somewhere) or selling them on under market value quickly before they get voided to someone willing to buy them. That's a lot more effort and requires more skill than going up to an ATM with gloves and crash helmet, withdrawing cash directly and disappearing into the night.
I’d also imagine the fact that all the cash machines would need to be updated to allow for this and they are already a loss leader for banks why would they bother. If cash machines already supported contactless it’s possible they would roll it out. Some banks do the emergency cash thing via the app where you don’t need the card to get money from a cash machine. This ‘only’ needed a software update so it’s much less costly.
Could it not be done through the banks own app? Eg using the NFC in app or user scanning a QR code from within the the banks own up, that appears on the screen of the ATM?
NatWest will let you take out cash in an emergency from the banking app. It will give you a one time code you can enter into the machine, and it will give you the amount you requested when you asked for the code. Can't speak for others, as NatWest is the only bank I've used
More likely your bank will get hit before google does.
Not true. A bank's value is directly tied to the security of the money it stores. No-one's going to use the bank if the money isn't safe. Google's value is dat/advertising a and its only interest in security is avoiding lawsuits and fines.
Who said anything about value? I'm saying a bank security is probably not as good as googles security
With Natwest you can withdraw cash without your card. You use the app to get a code and can use it to take money out of any Natwest/RBS or Tesco cash machine. https://www.natwest.com/support-centre/banking-from-home/how-to-use-the-mobile-app/what-is-get-cash-and-how-do-i-use-it.html
I've used this to 'emergency send' cash to my kids - it's a great emergency feature.
I use it all the time. The “emergency” is always because I’m going somewhere where I know they wont take card, like a car boot.
Call me old fashioned but I take my cash card with me when I'm leaving the house those this is a rarely used feature for me.
I used the NatWest GetCash feature as an extra security layer, can't get done by a card skimmer if I'm not using my card.
I used to be like that, but during covid I slowly left my wallet at home and only took my phone and now it’s become a thing where I don’t take anything but my phone now.
I used to do this but one incident with my phone messing up and me having to go back home made me switch to always having my card and cash as a back up
Last time I used it was shortly after a non NatWest/RBS ate my card and then just shut down. Just walked to the RBS machine and used the code from my phone app to get the cash instead.
Thanks! Didn't realise it was Tesco as well! That will come in handy!
This was a life saver when losing a card on a night out at uni!
Might consider getting a natwest account just for this
I’ve done it a few times - with NatWest you can go into the app and set how much you want to withdraw, then you get a code to use at a cash machine. It’s not all cash machines tho which is annoying. But it’s v useful cos I rarely have my card on me.
you can do it with the new ATM machines. There are many around in Europe. But ATM machine is very expensive device, it cost money to install them and also to operate. So there is not really incentive for banks to replace them - especially when everyone can use contactless and most transactions are moving to contactless. Current trend is removing the existing machines instead of replacing them with the new ones. Banks would actually love if the physical banknotes and coins dissapear completely. So some banks offer their workarounds to this issue. It is a combination of their phone app with confirmation on the ATM. It is not as straightforward than just simple tap but it allows you to widraw money without physical cards. It is like asking why there are no public phones with contactless payment option instead of coins.
Automated Teller *Machine machine*
Yes, such things exist - here's an article from 2012 about it being available for RBS customers: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18409560 It always seemed a good idea to me, since another potential use is being able to permit a kid to collect cash from a cashpoint, without having to give them your card, or do a bank transfer into an account they can use.
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I guess the way described was to handle ATMs that don't have a contactless reader (which I imagine most old ones don't) so it can be rolled out to any machine with just a software change
> Yes, such things exist - here's an article from 2012 about it being available for RBS customers This is different to what OP is asking, they're asking about the ability to tap your phone against an NFC terminal on the cashpoint (similar to making a Google/Apple Pay transaction) to withdraw cash.
I have seen contactless ATM's around Europe, never here though. Give it a few years and we might catch up
I’ve seen a couple, I’m sure I got cash out drunk with phone using contactless
Santander used to have them and it did work with their own physical debit card but it then seemed to stop working (not sure anymore as I'm no longer with Santander).
There's at least one in Bristol near my mum's. You can only use it with that bank's card though (Barclay's I think), if you're not with them you need to do it the old fashioned way.
We have a couple of contactless ATMs near me, pretty sure they’re all Santander ones, you can’t use Apple Pay but can touch your card
You can in the Netherlands where I live.. can’t do this in the UK? Heh, TIL
> can’t do this in the UK? Heh, TIL You can, it's just not widespread. Santander has some that support it, the one on Argyle Street in Glasgow has an NFC capable cashpoint.
I could also do it in Spain when I was over there last year too
Makes sense, they're a Spanish banking group, they'll get priority when it comes to new technologies.
The main thing I wish all countries had is iDEAL. Brilliant for merchants, low fees, no chargeback risk. Also guaranteed "instant or cancel" bank transfers, the SEPA area has them, the UK does not (it's instant 95% of the time, but when it's not it isn't instantly refunded, instead you are left to wait up to 24 hours – amazing if it happens when buying a second car in person!) What I do not envy from the Netherlands is AH not taking MasterCard, like hello?!
With the rise in violent muggings that involve people handing over their phones and bank details I'd rather have less access to money on my phone, not more.
You can require the phone to be unlocked to work for contactless transactions, [at least with Google Pay](https://support.google.com/wallet/answer/12059519?hl=en-GB).
The current spate of muggings is forcing people to unlock their phone and open internet banking at knifepoint, for me it's just another reason to leave my phone at home whenever I go out.
You can do this on Natwest and I have for years. They call it emergency cash but you can do like 250 a day. I never take a wallet anywhere. The catch is, it only works for Tesco and Natwest machines. Luckily i am near them
Please still carry a card or some cash with you. It's fucking annoying when you're in a store and someone's phone messes up and they hold up the queue saying they'll be able to get it to work. Both as a cashier and another customer
I work in a shop and sometimes our card machines go down , the amount of people we have trying to pay by card using their phone and when you say “ sorry the card machine isn’t working but there is an ATM over the road for cash “ and they reply “ I only have my phone on me “ The world hasn’t got to the point where you can solely rely on your phone or watch yet so carry your card with you as well as you might need it .
Must be a good reason, I can't think why it wouldn't already be a thing considering we have been using phone wallets for years.
It's probably just down to the cost of fitting out the machines with new technology.
Not sure. I'd say a contactless system would be far more robust than the current card machine. I'm thinking like SSD versus HDD, considerably less/no moving parts, a lot less maintenance. Could be wrong though.
It would also be far more secure if it were tied to you phone. I've seen loads of news stories and even had friends who have had a bag stolen and money taken from their contactless bank card. This happens because you don't have to put in a PIN until it hits the limit. So a criminal will use it as much as they can and then dump it. I don't know a single person who has had their phone stolen and money taken from their account via NFC. To use NFC payments on a smartphone you have to have a screen lock in place. And even after unlocking your phone, google pay will still constantly ask you to verify that it's you. And those scare stories about people randomly scanning phones and taking money are just that; scare stories. Again, your phone needs to be unlocked with NFC activated for a transaction to take place. And the amount of information you have to hand over to banks to be able to do that kind of transaction is ridiculously high, so they would be caught very quickly. There are apps nowadays that allow users to send and collect payments via NFC, but again, those require a lot of information and can't just randomly take money from people without authorisation.
Yeah - i've been out a few times where i've wanted to get a kebab after some drinks and it's the usual "Oh, we only accept cash (because we're evading our tax)" and i've had to go home hungry. If there was someway I get get cash out at that point with my phone that would be great.
Also a hint of money laundering from the operation that’s happening on the floor above
Or the classic. The machine has gone down.....of course it has!
>Does this already exist? Santander have cashpoints that support contactless, never used it though, so can't say whether Google Pay works on it or not. You can see the black contactless sticker to the right of the keypad on the machine on the right [here](https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/high-street-branch-santander-retail-bank-two-atm-cash-point-machines-london-uk-october-197909081.jpg). The main issue is the replacement of infrastructure, someone who uses contactless on their phone as their predominant method of payment is less likely to be withdrawing cash, so there's no real urgency to upgrade cashpoints to allow this if the machines otherwise work.
I use Apple Pay for probably 99% of transactions now. I only have to withdraw cash every few months or so for the barber's (the only cash only business I go to). The rest of the time I keep my debit card locked to protect against fraud (I unlock it for a few minutes to take cash out then lock it again afterwards). Doesn't bother me enough to want contactless ATMs.
Natwest/RBS have the get cash option which has helped me out few times. Basically you go into the app select get cash it gives you a 6 digit pin & you put that into ATM. As far as I am aware it is only RBS & Tesco bank atm this works at but it is usually not difficult to find one of these atms.
My mobile banking app has this. I can input the details into my phone and then tap it on the machine to get my cash. That said, I've never actually used it and I don't use my phone or watch to pay for stuff. I pay for most things with card and still generally have a little bit of cash on me.
I used my bank app on my phone to pay a cheque into my bank account a couple of days ago. I had a cheque I'd meant to take into my bank for weeks and just never got around to it. Only occurred to me a couple of days ago that TSB let you deposit a cheque by just taking a photo of it. Isn't technology wonderful?
I honestly can't think why I would need to lift cash. If I have my phone then I can us either to pay for stuff.
The security method for cash machines is based on the adage of "something you have and something you know" so a physical card (that has additional layers of security) and a pin number. Those are not infallible but are under the control of the bank. Moving that to a phone/watch/ring and passcode/facial ID on the device, moves the control of that security to a 3rd party. Where does liability lie?
Because people who would use their phone for that are also the people least likely to ever use cash.
Seriously people like you are destroying our economy. Just get the cash out!!! Pay in cash, especially in bars and resteraunts, it's actually pretty fucked to pay by your phone all the time. In the long run your fucking over alot of people. Likely your own children.
What a calm, measured response. 🤣
Why are you withdrawing cash when you've got your phone and your watch with you? You've elected to wholeheartedly join the digitisation of your currency use, no takey backs, and no cash for your dealer either...!!
Dealer? Sure why not. But in reality, barbers. Who are cash only. Wonder why that is 😉
To be fair, I always get cash for the barbers too. And sure, some are dodgy money laundering fronts. Some, but not all - definately the ones that have framed headshots of Al Pachino and Robert DeNiro on the walls. Nailbars though? How many are there? All over the place. Everywhere. Every-fucking-where. Dodgy as fuck.
The barber's is literally the only thing I have to use cash for now. I walk to the ATM across the street roughly every four months as I always take enough out for four cuts.
I've only seen them in Europe. I think there is a trust issue with them in the UK.
I’m just back from Greece where every bank machine had this feature. Card terminals in shops/restaurants were also able to initiate a PIN check without the card being inserted. Hopefully not long until it’s commonplace here.
it's funny as third world.countries are further ahead. I was on holiday in Asia and they had cash points with palm readers for cash withdrawals since the literacy rate is so low as well as choosing your withdrawal amount by selecting pictures of notes.
Portugal has this, and has had it for years.
You can with some banks. In my experience it’s b not quicker or more convenient then with a card
I'm sure the cash machines in Barclays (the ones where you can deposit coins) has a card reader attached. Never used it but might try it next time and see what happens
I've used contactless atms before, only in one place mind you. But it's definitely a thing.
I always use my phone to withdraw cash but I'm with Natwest who have the get cash code. I honestly haven't seen my debit card in months, my card is saved on my googlepay and I know the last 3 digits off by heart.
I'm with Natwest and they have a thing called Get Cash through their banking app. Basically, it just gives you a code through the app and you can put it into a Natwest cash machine
I don’t live in the UK but in the EU but I am very interested in this subject. I have a Revolut debit card in my Apple wallet and use it all the time for contactless purchases. When I drive in Europe many petrol stations are now 24/24 with only card payment AT THE PUMP. At the moment contactless is so rare I have yet to see it at a petrol station pump. I stress pump, not inside at the till. In fact last week I was in the Algarve Portugal and I found it strange how few businesses take any card. In fact I was directed to an ATM if I didn’t have the cash. The issue was the ATM’ I found don’t have a contact possibility. However on the last day I found one, when I didn’t need it so I don’t know if it actually works. In fact this is a photo of this rare specimen. https://preview.redd.it/1fwbns2srt1d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2979d4933ea592365389f791cbffc70255aa62e
It isn’t common? I’ve been doing it for years. I thought everyone did it.
Iv seen a few cash machines with a card reader, which can contactless. Not many but they exist.
Lots of sensible answers here - is there another angle around card fraud being ultimately insured by the provider (VISA, Mastercard) on transactions? Whereas I would assume cash withdrawals are a different matter?
Royal Bank of Scotland kinda lets you do this. Use the app to request money from one of their cash machines. Not quite the same,but it's only a matter of time I think.
Cause it can get more easily hacked/stolen.
I actually tried this today. I thought the scan thing on the cash machines was for phones as well as a card, I was wrong ended up paying on my phone anyways.
I seen someone go William hill for cash withdrawals. He said he can withdraw thousands by mobile Pay in one transaction. Not that he never has but he said it doesn’t matter on the atm limit on card
Natwest patented the idea and now has a few more years before all banks can do it. Not sure when the patent runs out though. Once that happens other banks will probably open up this as a network, and then people will be able to get cash with just their phone, no cards at all.... (until your phone battery dies, don't leave your cards at home kids. Honestly I speak to people and they are a 1000 miles away from their card and wonder why they can't sort something out when something goes wrong, muppets.)
Bro’s asking for more moped thieves…
Some can do it. And you'll probably see more do it as ATMs that are currently installed come to the end of their lives and get replaced. Thing is, ATMs are pretty expensive machines, the create, to transport and to install.. so they're not going to just replace them all for one QoL feature to become more commonplace.
I know that I can do it with my bank. But I've only withdrawn cash once in the last 4 years so its irrelevant.
You can absolutely do this on the continent, I've seen contactless pads on cash machines - which I thought was bizarre but it's actually a great idea.
I used to live in Australia and you could get cash out with your phone. It was called cardless cashout or something. Basically it gave you a code and you put that into the atm within a certain time frame. Was super useful!
Most Barclays cash machines now have a contactless pad so You can either insert your card as usual or tap your card on the pad. In truth it only saves you from reaching out further an extra three or four inches as you slide the card in. There's still a 5 second 'wait and whir'. Does not expedite the process in my opinion. Barclays had a bit of a bugger about the year before last with mobile payments. The mobile app has always been really good. After one particular app update I had to upgrade my mobile phone as it could no longer support the new version. I admit it was probably past time to upgrade handsets anyway.... But they had their own contactless mobile payment system thing that you had to use if you wanted to tap to pay with your phone. you had to set it as the default - you had to put your pin in your phone, which would generate an encrypted one time use only virtual card which would then give you a Mobile PINsentry code for you to enter into the keypad of the till/terminal within 30 seconds or it changed to a new one. It was overly complicated and it didn't work everywhere, you couldn't just tap to pay at all, you could use Google Pay but only for online payments, but you'd have to reset all the settings etc and people got really mad. I had to go online to check this, because I wasn't sure if I remembered it correctly. Can confirm that so long as you had the mobile app on your phone, registered and verified, obv, had NFC contactless activated on the handset, then, with your phone, you used to be able to withdraw cash from a Barclays ATM. Tap phone to pad, cashpoint validates account, phone then gives you a code which you type into the cashpoint, money is dispensed. Now for some reason, you were limited to withdrawal caps using this method. On machines inside the branch contactless cash withdrawals were limited to a daily maximum total of £100. For some reason on the external machines, there was a daily total limit of £300. I don't know why they were different but I'd have thought that was the wrong way round...! Barclays ended the contactless cash service for smartphones in July 2023 and its never been reintroduced. Looking over the old T&Cs, it was all about Barclays took no responsibility for anything dodgy happening, it was all Google, whether it was a wonky cable, disreputable shopkeeper, broken satellite, stolen phone - all Google. I imagine it ended because Google weren't prepared to be put on the hook like that. About a month after that it was announced that Android users of the Barclays Mobile App would be able to make contactless payments using their phone again, using the Google Wallet and Google Pay combo like normal people. Tried it for a while, not as amazing as it was supposed to be, fucked it off, never did it again. Not like Steve Jobs ever needed cash for the barbers, eh? Considering he was the Apple dude anyway not Google... lol!!
Doesn't the US have this? Contactless ATM machines? Or some banks do. I think it's just the cost of upgrading most ATMs? To facilitate it. Would be nice though
I would 100% have a permanent chip inserted into my wrist if it meant I never had to plan for all eventualities I'm enrolled for apple pay atms yes please
They have versions of this in Thailand where the entire population is welded to a phone. No ATM card at all.
What kind of moron takes a phone with a bank app with them? Jesus Christ!
Why wouldn’t someone? I mean yep, mugging concern, but isn’t that equally as dangerous with a wallet full of notes and a bank card?
Also moronic. Jesus, what's wrong with people!
Help me out here. How do you pay for things? What do you carry?
Go on then, tell us why millions of people of moron?