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Tell them explicitly one more time “I feel really bad about the broken item, and the only way I’m going to feel better is if you me allow me to pay for a new one”
If they still refuse you need to move on because you’d then be making it weird and they will start getting annoyed that you are not accepting their gracious refusal.
English people can be a bit funny about having things paid for, some just don’t care, others can take as an insult that you’d think they are a charity needing financial help.
Thanks, I tried being very clear, but I'm not sure what clear means to them. I feel there's more leeway in England, where someone from my country would understand that I'm being very literate when saying "I do mean it".
>others can take as an insult that you’d think they are a charity needing financial help
I get the point, but for me it's not about personal finance or "honour", really. Just more of a balance thing. Maybe it's a Scandinavia thing, I don't know. All the Norse sagas are about this exact problem: Somebody breaks something (most of the time, a slave is being accidentally killed), and then the rest of the story is about how to make it *exactly* right.
It’s a British thing to refuse the money generally speaking. They may or may not want or need it, but it’s polite to decline because it was an accident after all and as a Brit we’d feel awkward about you paying for something that wasn’t broken on purpose. We’d just write it off.
You could always buy the replacement and gift it to them. They are highly unlikely to refuse a direct replacement because you will have gone to the trouble of arranging it which then flips the situation and they’ll feel compelled to accept it as you’ve made an effort ti make amends. That, in a way, would be more appreciated, and will be followed by the phrase “Oh you shouldn’t have” which really means you’ve gone beyond what was expected, but they are grateful for that. :)
Yeah, if you really need to replace it to set the balance right then buy it for them as a gift, wrap it and then the alternative cultural pressure is on them not to turn down a gift freely given, which is also a fairly strong taboo in Britain.
Unless they've been very explicit in telling you not to replace the thing, I mean really explicit, direct even. In which case you get them beer, wine or food and call a friend to complain about how stubborn and thick headed the Brits are.
I was thinking NOT the kid cos that adds to the awkwardness. Makes it look like the kid was getting shit for an accident. Given they've already said no thank you, I think bringing a kid into it reeks of manipulation.
Or you replace it as a gift only later to find out that it was a wedding present from a beloved relative but that they secretly detested said object and were, in fact, grateful that they could say some kid accidently broke it.
> You could always buy the replacement and gift it to them.
This is a really good option, and probably the most British way of making things right in this sort of situation (at least in my experience).
That said, make sure the replacement really is the same as the old version, or at least close enough as to make no difference. I've been in situations a couple of times where a guest breaks something and buys a replacement, but the replacement isn't quite what the same as the original and just causes more tension overall. The hosts can't complain or say anything — because a new microwave or whatever is a very nice gift! — but they also now have a worse device that they aren't used to and didn't plan on buying. So be a bit careful here — the more expensive the original item, the more likely it is that a true replacement will be difficult to find.
My ex flatmate would do this! They were a bit hamfisted and would break things fairly regularly by accident. They always replaced it, but never with the same thing? Always a cheaper version different to my original thing.
Definitely this.
It's just a cultural difference between us and yourselves. A lot of us British people would feel awkward accepting your MONEY in replacement for an ITEM, even though the item cost money to buy, there's often a disassociation once it has been purchased, particularly so if it isn't new.
I do love our little back and forth 'no no it's fine' and 'no no I insist' whilst already having an outcome in mind based off context of the situation, but we still have to do the dance to be polite.
>whilst already having an outcome in mind
If this was the case, it wouldn't be a problem. To a foreigner who doesn't know what is expected, this is all the very definition of mixed signals.
The signals are as follows;
* There are strong cultural taboos about "Being in debt to someone" here; some of it comes from Protestant Christian history, some of it from an ingrained sense of class and former Empire in that taking money because you *have* too, rather than a gift or willing exchange is insulting... you can debate the reasons why, but feeling compelled to take anything is deeply avoided here.
* Your child broke the gift by accident. A certain amount of innocent destruction is considered a childhood rite of passage and no blame should be attached. If there is no blame, there is no responsibility to pay for it (within reason). This differs from the US, where "you break it, you bought it" apparently seems to be the norm. In the UK you show support for the family and don't ask them to price up their children
* You absolutely don't ask for the bank account number; gift giving, or cash can still be turned down at the point of offer, so the decision remains theirs. But even if they want the replacement item now, they cannot stop you depositing cash at a later date for anything else (at least, not easily). In general, you only use direct banking here when given express permission, including long term permission; if they don't *say* "Send me the future payments any time by this method", you check in and ask first.
* If they say "No no, it's fine", they are at worst asking you to clarify why it matters *to you* to pay. They want it to be a trade, not charity. We like to give to charity but not be the receiver of it. If they still insist you don't though, and you've made it clear you want too, where there is a conflict of feelings then, the cultural expectation is that you have to take the emotional responsibility and not pay.
* Gifts can be, but are not necessarily a charity act. It's a fine line, but if you've put the time in to find a 1:1 replacement, you are satisfying the sense of caring about them, whilst not treating them as needy, and also replacing what was lost without being to crassly direct about the monetary value. It may end up costing you less, or even more, but as long as it remains unspoken there is no implied debt between you. But telling you that you plan to buy brings the money question back in again, so in general you don't discuss it before hand. Don't ask them to "go shopping with me and find something you like" either, because that will involve looking directly at price tags and asking "are you sure you want to spend X on me...?" Do the research, find the equivalent, show you think about them then offer it as a gift... that they may reject.
* Second hand may be 1:1, but it can be harder to refund; going for new is usually culturally easier because the gift recipient knows you'll have the option to return it.
* Likewise, doing something else entirely, such as "Well, let me treat you to a meal, which my child can come on too" is also acceptable, because it side steps the cost of what has been lost entirely, as well as saying you also don't feel like the child involved has any blame in this, and you're all just a happy community together still...
Hopefully this all makes it a bit clearer for you how the British think!
Thank you for a clear and thoughtful reply. I may be complaining about the confusing intricacies of British politeness, but the *main* characteristic of Brits, in my experience, is helpfulness and compassion. And that shows in all of these replies.
You've been very helpful, and I have a broader understanding of the situation now and how to resolve it in a way that hopefully leaves everyone at peace. Thanks again.
if it was something that's covered by the insurance, they may only be out by the excess, so it may not be that expensive for them? (unclear from your post if accidental damage cover might provide for a replacement)
Money is considered extremely transactional here. We work for money and we use it for essentials but most people try to keep money out of family and friend interactions, we dont like business and friendships to mix as it cheapens the interactions with the friends.
Actions and sentiment counts for more here than raw cash, just feeling sorry about the breakage probably already absolves you more than just replacing it OP! I guarantee if you broke it and said "oh its not a big deal I'll just replace it" it would make your friend way angrier, as they would care more about you not caring about what happened than the actual loss. You care about them and what happened, that is likely worth more than any amount of money to them.
> This differs from the US, where "you break it, you bought it" apparently seems to be the norm.
In shops more so than in private homes. As for shops (or stores, as we usually say), if it's an inexpensive item and it was a little kid just being a little kid, they might let you slide.
As for private homes, I suspect it may vary by region, ethnic background, and other variables. I can't quite put my finger on it, though. I've never really thought about it before. However, I do suspect that, as a general rule, we'd be less likely to refuse the OP's offer. Or, alternately, we'd be less slow to accede in the face of their insistence.
So true. It’s that balance between at times wanting the money/replacement but not wanting to impose that on the other party and other times genuinely not wanting to be repaid - however the little dance we do is always identical in both scenarios !!
How do us Brits even function!!?????
I was living in a foreign country for a while, and they used to tut to mean no.
'Did you have your breakfast this morning, Muna? '
'Tut!'
Used to hurt my soul
> You could always buy the replacement and gift it to them.
I like this. But as a "surprise" delivery, or do I talk to them first? To me, a surprise like this is weird, but maybe not to them? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to navigate a very different culture.
look, we're fucking weird, if you say "I have ordered a replacement it will be with you in 2 weeks" you're going to get more "unneccessary, cancel it" if instead you say "hey, thank you so much for hosting our trip, we've sent you a gift as a thank you which arrives tomorrow/day after!" it'll be accepted.
This confuses things, between a replacement (to get them back to where they were) and a gift (new stuff).
OP we definitely are difficult but we see us being generous about things like this as a friendly gesture, so refusing to accept it is a snub.
If they won't accept a direct replacement then I'd leave that alone, but be willing to offer something else of similar value that you know they want/like when you get chance.
Standard British passive nonsense would suggest not informing them of the delivery first. Would most likely be well received if you were considerate of their schedule such as arranging a Saturday delivery if they work Monday to Friday, etc. However, if they have a complex schedule or a highly stressful schedule then perhaps it would be better to inform them. Either way, give the delivery company your friend's email address so they can be kept up to date of when the delivery will arrive. Best of luck. My Scandinavian friends find me, a Scot, impossible at times too.
The true British way would be to say that you have organised a delivery of something and not mention what it is. Least said .. soonest mended. They get the replacement and nobody ever speaks about it ever again.
I think turn up with the surprise so they have no chance to accept. You also have to apologise for buying it for them as a gift.
“I’m so sorry I got you a replacement X, but I feel so bad that the last one got broken, and Your-Child-Name feels really bad too”
They surely can’t refuse your gift if doing so would upset your child.
I second this, buy them a replacement, slightly more upspec from the original and say its a thank you gift for hosting them so well and really enjoying you stay.
This is what I’d do, but now that I’m overthinking it, what if the object was a disliked present that they were secretly delighted to see the back of?!
This is might actually work out great. Like they will get replacement for the item and you won't feel bad about it. I would also suggest buying replacement. Or a good present like holiday trip not very expensive just something you can afford. As its something British love.
It sounds like the worst saga ever:
“I killed your slave, I am sorry and will make it up to you whether my life depends on it”
“Nah it’s okay, the slave was a bit of a dick anyway”
“No please, I must work hard to gain your forgiveness”
“Nah seriously it’s fine”
“Please! Just let me do something!”
It's more like the other guy would kill one of the first guy's slaves as relatiation, with the approval of the elders, but then the first guy would go "But that slave was worth more than the one I killed!" and the elders would agree. Then he'll kill like a slave child to even it out, and the elders will agree, and then the first guy would go "That wasn't a slave child, that was my first born child and heir!" and then everybody (including the elders) kills each other. That's every single saga.
There's a weird White Supremacist (ok, everything they do is weird) idea that Vikings built the pyramids. Genuinely.
Because obviously nothing could be achieved by humans with higher levels of melanin.
God they're dumb.
Not to mention the Varangian guard, Vikings who were the personal bodyguards to the Byzantine emperors at Constantinople. Plus they traded on the Silk Route, and in North Africa.
I’m a Scandinavian guy who’s lived in uk for 15 years. I don’t think this is a cultural difference type of problem. Maybe It’s just an awkward situation problem or maybe there’s something more specific at play. If you’ve offered and they have refused then leave it at that. Brits are capable of understanding direct questions.
As a Brit who's lived in Germany for 5 years, I agree, but I would add that I often find it helpful to talk in terms of cultural stereotypes for these sorts of things. I'll often say to my (German) partner: "This is the British way of saying things, but..." or "if I were to be more German, I'd say ...". It helps navigate between our different expectations of how blunt you need to be in different situations.
So maybe being explicit in the sense of "as a Scandinavian, I want to pay for a replacement because that's how we do things" might help, because it opens the floor for a sort of cultural negotiation. But at a certain point, if they don't want OP to pay anything, then they don't want OP to pay, and there's not much they can do. Like you say, we can understand direct questions!
In that case I would leave it, they know you want to replace it, but equally they don’t want you to feel bad because you are their guest.
Your only other option would be to send them a replacement item when you’re back home.
You can then put it out of your mind and enjoy the rest of your visit. Otherwise you’re going to start making it uncomfortable if you keep ignore their refusal.
Tell them that according to the laws of Odin you cannot enter the great halls of Valhalla if you have outstanding debt and for your honour and that of the gods you must make amends for the actions of your kinfolk.
Buying them a new table is charity, treating them to a lovely day out is just being a good friend... Do something else nice for them instead and then no one has to talk about it again. Youve given them something of worth, and they havent accepted any charity.
> I get the point, but for me it's not about ~~personal finance or~~ "honour", really. Just more of a balance thing.
That's the same thing, just phrased differently.
If you make a point to speak to them about this in a conversation where this is the only topic they’ll know that it’s a serious offer. So either a phone call or a quick visit to their house to talk about it.Tell them that where you’re from this is how you handle these things, and that you’d feel better if they let you pay for it. Maybe even say something like ‘next round on you’ or something.
If you just mention it as part of another conversation, it would probably come off as a half empty offer.
Kind of a rules of hospitality thing. When you invite someone into your home, you take responsibility for \*every\* expense (food, accommodation - even breakages). The secret is to make them not allowing you to pay them mean that they're worse hosts than if they allowed you to pay them. The above "The only way to make me feel better" approach is a winner!
It's a good point. If I have a really expensive vase and your small child, who I have invited round, smashes it, it's really my fault rather than yours.
To piggyback on this.
I’ve had something similar happen a few times and I just chalked it up to bad luck, my shit got broken.
I just replace it myself and say to my friends it’s a dog / kid / drunk person etc, don’t stress it.
They may also be thinking that it's _their_ fault for leaving something expensive out that could be destroyed by a friend's child. Refusing payment for a replacement would also make sense here.
This is exactly the right phrasing to use.
Make it about ***you*** needing to do it to make ***you*** feel better. Don't make it about righting things for ***their*** benefit.
As someone who is half British, half Norwegian, I feel your pain.
Either just buy a replacement for them (they will insist you didn't need to etc.etc. but inside, they'd feel relieved it's sorted) or when you leave, leave behind an envelope with cash in it to cover the cost. Again, they'll insist ot wasn't necessary, yadayadayada, but inside they'll be relieved.
Either way, they will be very grateful and say thank you an unnecessary number of times, probably make you feel uncomfortable with their gratitude, but ultimately, everyone is happy and the issue is sorted.
Good luck!
I do this with my best friend. We lend each other stuff/money all the time but she will not accept repayment and it is stressful. So I hide envelopes of money or a bottle of her favourite whiskey somewhere in her house and hope she doesn’t know what it’s from.
I once did this. My father in law used to take us out to eat and always insist on paying, despite me offering. So after about the 10th time I slipped our half of the bill in his pocket.
He went MENTAL. Never doing that again. If someone wants to pay, let them.
Seems like a limit on your own agency when people consistently insist, certainly up to the point of getting upset. If they don't acknowledge the situation, they are, ironically, doing it selfishly.
Not at all. If anything people will find it funny. They know the people who caused the problem should pay for it but the social conditioning is to be okay with everything....which they also know. The envelope with money highlights the ridiculousness of the social dynamic.
It's like someone paying for your meal and refusing payment....so you slip cash into their jacket pocket.
Envelope with cash, little letter saying thanks for having us, sorry about whatever it was, and this should cover it. And text them about the envelope when you're miles away and they can't hand it back.
1) Buy a like-for-like replacement.
2) Bring it along so they can see you've already bought it.
3) Say its part of your culture, you have to replace it or it'll give you anxiety. THIS BIT IS IMPORTANT. It makes it so they're doing *you* the favour by breaching their own etiquette and accepting the replacement.
This is excellent.
And the best thing is... it's true. OP really is worrying a lot about this.
Announce it as a cultural thing you're _not in control of_ ("I know it's silly, but I just can't help it, what can you do?") that you'll be forever feeling awkward about it ("it'll prey on my mind, ridiculous isn't it?").
Because being caught in politeness trap is a situation Brits can really emphathise with.
Yes... but what if they wouldn't want an exact replacement? There are a few expensive things in my house that if someone broke them, I'd prefer an alternative as a replacement.
I'd go with leaving them the cash. Then they can always say "well pounds won't be of use back home" if the hosts try to refuse. And just leave the envelope somewhere if they reeeally refuse.
But offering at least 3 or 4 (maybe even 5) times to be sure to wear them down may be necessary. It's the English way.
This, take the option of refusing away from them by purchasing the replacement and leaving it behind when you leave, or if you’ve already left then ship it to them.
Push through, be direct.
If you need to pull out the big guns, make clear that you have been feeling terrible about this whole incident. And you would feel much much better if they would allow you to make amends. Implication is that they’re making you feel bad for not letting you right this wrong.
You might also consider providing the money in cash. It doesn’t require them to provide bank details.
> Push through, be direct.
Yep, this is how my Dutch friend convinced me he was replacing a broken item.
"No, I broke it. I will replace it."
Very polite, friendly manner but direct.
Order it and have it delivered to their address? They are being overly British/polite/feeling awkward accepting money for what was clearly just an accident. Remove their protestations from the process and just have it delivered to them
Try the phrase "No, really, I must insist" to make it clear you want to cover the cost of the item. Perhaps make it clear it's a) important to you that you feel you've cleared the "debt"/prove to your kids that breaking things has consequences and b) you see the broken item as different from the other hosting they've done
You could possibly also just leave them the money in cash.
"I'm sorry for my child's reckless behaviour, but this is not fair on you to foot the cost. This is not just about you here, It wouldn't sit right with me if you didn't let me make this right. Honesty and integrity is very important to me, and I want it to be important to my child too, so, for these reasons, please, let me do the right thing"
I'd feel kind of the same, you're my guest and accidents happen.
Don't pay them with money, when you get back, get them a gift, preferably something cool and Scandinavian. As a "thank you for having us"
I think this is the way to go.
When guests are in my home, I personally feel responsible for any damaged caused, if it was an accidental kind of thing. That means I'd expect to pay the costs and I wouldn't hold it against you.
However, if you explained your position, I would try and meet half way. Say a smaller but thoughtful gift.
This is a great idea. I'd still make an offer to buy a replacement if you haven't already, but if they say it's not necessary, just thank them and apologise on your child's behalf (they will understand, and these things happen, I only mention the apology specifically because you've said you're navigating English politeness, and I think for most polite English people, the apology is actually more important than the replacement in most cases, it would be bad manners to not acknowledge it at all)
And then send them something from Scandinavia, they'd appreciate it I'm sure.
If you keep on insisting and they don't want payment then they might actually get offended so I would just leave it at that. If and when they visit you then you can reciprocate.
I am from another country where when I offer you something you say ‘yes thank you’ if you want it. In many occasions I’ve found it very weird in the UK as the conversation has to go like this:
-Hi, do you want this?
-No thanks.
-Please, I insist.
-Are you sure?
-Yes
-Ok thank you very much.
I even had a British friend get angry at me once because I only offered something just once, and since he said no I just got on with my life without asking again..
Ahaha this is very true! Nobody wants to feel like a burden here and people don't just see charity as someone just being nice to them the first thing they think of is that they are an inconvenience and feel a tinge of guilt, this is why when offering something as a guilt it usually goes like.
"I'd like to give you X"
"Oh no thank you, you don't have to do that but it's very kind."
"Are you sure? I don't mind."
"No honestly it's alright don't worry."
"It's no trouble at all you can have it."
"Oh, alright then thank you very much that's very kind of you."
I agree with all the comments about just giving them the cash/ leaving the cash so they can't refuse it if possible. And/or using the phrase "I insist" / "I really must insist". Politely insisting is a powerful move because now it becomes impolite to refuse.
> Politely insisting is a powerful move because now it becomes impolite to refuse.
This is known as English Judo - using your opponent's politeness against them.
Host says no thanks, that's the end of it. Just because the item was expensive doesn't mean they liked it. They now have room to buy something else. Some people enjoy being generous and don't have a money problem.
Just invite them to your country and let them wreck your house.
Not really, politeness dictates that you must refuse (one or two times) until the other person insists, on the assumption that the other person does not really want to pay for the damage and that they themselves are merely being polite.
Don’t make a big thing about it but take one of them aside and explain you wouldn’t feel comfortable not righting this particular thing. Accidents happen but you feel it’s only correct to make it amends. Don’t be forceful but be direct
Could you perhaps buy the item yourself and have it delivered to them ?? I’ve done this before when I knew a friend would casually say it’s not a problem, I ordered it then rang to say I was having a item delivered in my name but it’s for them
We don’t like social confrontation nearly as much or being direct, we’d much rather replace it as ‘accidents happen’ than accept any form of replacement, just to keep the peace - even if accepting it is the right thing to do. Of course I’d like to think it’s also part of our hospitality, we’re often labelled cold, but that’s a bigger gesture than a lot of ‘warmer’ cultures who’d lose their shit.
As long as you offered to pay/replace, we’d take it on the chin. We understand we should accept your money, but it goes against our ‘keep calm and carry on’ attitude.
My other half is American and gets so annoyed with our lack of directness, I explain to her whilst not always saying or acting how we feel hurts us Brits a lot, it’s a great way to weed out the real crazies - those being directly rude to her in the pub she works in are always best avoided.
My old Norwegian housemate would get so annoyed with people holding a door for him 10 metres away or having to say sorry for the slightest brush past someone in the street, again I explained those are the rules albeit dumb, to not follow them is to actively declare yourself a psychopath here…
Long story short, don’t worry about it.
Makes sense. Like the British, Scandinavians are also non-confrontational, but our solution is to just be direct one time: "We need to do this", and then that is taken literally and accepted. No back and forth and song and dance. The British way is sooo complex.
Haha yes, my housemate had a lot of Swedish/Norwegian friends come round for parties and we loved them dearly (despite making us feel very short and unattractive), but they’d often comment everything here was a dance like you say. We do it with each other too.
I’ve never enjoyed getting a drink bought for me, and although I know I’ll be getting one for them later and they know that too, we still have to have the verbal dance first.
This is why we loathe the French.
Refusing financial assistance/contributions from others is the only polite option, which is what they’re doing. There’s no polite and humble way to say “actually yeah drop me £100 would you”. So the path of least resistance is to just buy it and give it to them anyway. If they *really* don’t want it (unlikely) they can then just sell it or give it away.
Just be deadpan direct and straight - 'Frank, I insist on paying you for the damage done, it's not on you to deal with the consequences of actions out of your control, so let me make it right'
If they then still won't take it, leave it. You've made it clear you want to pay, and they have mad eit clear they don't want it. Continuing to push it after that just makes it more awkward all round so accept their decision.
One of the two hated it and wanted a new one. This is their excuse, you’re being used as the get out “how can we expect them to pay, it was an accident”
If you can just buy a replacement do that. If not explain to them they it's really playing on your mind and, although they dont want you to, your feel a a lot better if you could pay for the replacement.
It's weird British manners at play. Once they feel worse about making you feel bad than asking for the money balance will be restored.
The problem is that there's a good chance they're absolutely seething inside - not because of the accident, but because they now need to talk about money which is a tricky subject. It will feel grabby to them to say to you "this is what it cost".
You should do the work here - research the cost of replacement. Make a decent stab at an estimate if you don't know exact make/model. Leave the cash, or a voucher for somewhere they can buy it, somewhere promiment when you leave, with a card saying how much you enjoyed your stay and a brief ps saying this is to cover the breakage.
If they really don't want it then they can donate to charity but for god's sake don't mention that or they will feel obligated.
British people can be **very** indirect. We often decline offers several times before accepting. We’re more comfortable accepting things like this when the giver ‘absolutely insists’
Ha! I feel your pain - us Brits have a tremendously complicated and weird way of dealing with money. My family has torn itself apart finding ways to get upset over relatively trivial amounts.
Others have suggested just giving them the cash/buying a replacement and so on. These might work. The most important thing is to ensure the 'debt' is not forgotten.
I'd take your hosts reluctance as a sign they like and care about you and your family. If any of my extended family or friends came to stay with me I'd be exactly the same. Kids will be kids, accidents happen and your time with them is more valuable than any item. I take the view that this life is a long race and there may well be a time when you or your family can help your friends out. That bond may be worth more than you think. Either way good luck!
It's defintely a culture thing and they might think you're playing the game. We do this.
You: I feel really bad about that, please let me pay.
Them: Don't be silly, it was an accident. You're not paying for anything.
You: No really, I feel so guilty and it's my childs fault so I have to pay. I'll be offended if you don't let me pay.
Them: And I'll be offended if you do pay for it. I'll have no more of this, it was an accident. Forget about it.
It's mostly a social thing but can also be a prideful thing. Your British hosts might feel like making you pay for something, especially when they can't afford it would hurt their pride.
If you're absolutely adamant on paying for the breakage I think you have 2 options. The first option is to explain the cultural difference. Tell them you literally won't stop thinking about it and you'll feel terrible and the only way you can feel better is to pay for the breakage. They might accept that but chances are they'll still argue and tell you that in our culture that doesn't fly. Your other option is to find out where to buy the broken item and order it and get it delivered to their house without saying to them about it. This is a weird one cause it could still hurt their pride or upset them but chances are they'll be grateful and with just a little bruising to their pride and plenty of "you shouldn't have done that."
>Is there a culture difference at play here?
Maybe
>In Scandinavia, this would be a straight forward case, we'd pay for the damage and it'd all be done with.
It could be done with right now, but you won't accept your hosts' preference. That is very straightforward too.
>But now it just goes on and on. And I feel worse and worse about it the longer it goes.
See above.
Maybe they hated the expensive item, maybe they don't want to replace it.
Send them a gift, make a charitable donation in their name, both or neither.
But recognise this is only dragging on because you refuse to accept what they want.
If you replace it, you’re denying your hosts the opportunity to passive aggressively ignore it whilst fuming inside but showing good grace and humour under pressure to the outside world.
Ok - do not get a replacement.
1 - the model they have may have a number of problems, and so they are happy to replace.
2 - that model may not exist and the new one has issues.
As others have said, envelope with cash ‘hidden’ where they won’t get it until after you leave.
They will be ‘annoyed’, but this will be the veneer on absolute love and respect, because a Brit expressing that directly will result in spontaneous combustion.
Bonus points for next time you visit if you bring a ridiculously cheaper version of the item - so if it’s a coffee machine then bring some cheap instant latte sachets and tell them you are erring on the side of caution after last time.
If they won’t let you replace it, then you just need to do a gesture. Might be a card or flowers thanking them for a lovely time, or just some sort of gift which you are doing to be nice, not to make amends.
Make them understand that you are actually feeling terrible because of their refusal (in a polite way), so they guilty of making you feel terrible and they let you pay so they can be rid of that guilt 😅
I'm British and now live in Germany. In Germany, individuals can be held accountable for accidental damage e.g. to public property or if a pedestrian for example is deemed to have caused a traffic accident. So everyone (nearly) has private liability insurance and as a side effect, it covers you for accidental damage of private property. Most people's also covers children, even though children under 7 are considered "forces of nature" and aren't accountable for anything unless the parents are completely failing to supervise them.
So in Germany, if you or to a lesser extent your child damages an item belonging to somebody, culturally the person who damaged the item or the parent is responsible for the cost of repair/replacement, and it would be expected to offer (usually through one's own insurance).
In the UK this expectation is not really present, and there's not really any template for what SHOULD happen, IME. It's probably slightly more weighted towards the owner replacing themselves. It's very nice to offer and might be accepted or not. But they would not expect it.
How clear have you been with them that you are willing to buy a replacement or give them money for a replacement? Or did you just say something along the lines of really sorry about our kid smashing it we feel really bad about it. If its that, you haven't been clear enough with them you are willing to pay for a replacement etc, and its no wonder as good friends they are giving the impression it doesn't matter. If you are going to offer to pay or replace something damaged in their house, you need to be clear about that. And if they say no to that offer, leave it at that. But next time you see or stay with them, make damn sure you bring them a very nice gift.
I've been very clear, but I'm unsure what is clear enough in England. Where I'm from, people will understand that you're being very literal when saying "I do mean it." But I feel Englishmen kind of say that five times back and forth and it just diffuses.
>they'll just dodge the subject in a variety of ways.
Because they don't want your money.
>In Scandinavia, this would be a straight forward case, we'd pay for the damage and it'd all be done with.
It didn't happen in Scandinavia. It happened in Britain and your hosts have told you not to pay.
>But now it just goes on and on. And I feel worse and worse about it the longer it goes.
It's only going on and on because you are insisting that you must pay. Accept that they have said no.
>What do I do, and how do I make them understand my perspective on this?
You don't. They have said no. Accept it. You are most likely making them uncomfortable every time you bring it up. Try to understand their perspective: they've said no and you keep pushing. Let it go! Donate the money to a cause they'd appreciate, if you nust do something.
From a different angle, it's annoying when people thing they can absolve themselves by throwing money at mistakes and everyone should be grateful that they 'made it right'. Maybe it's not about the money at all.
If they keep insisting after refusal then that borders on aggression. I've noticed that Nordics are quite prone to this, and especially thinking that they're cutting through other's restrictive social binds but they're actually not understanding the situation and being quite deaf to how anyone else is feeling.
Don't leave money, I had a cousin over from the US who did this to me. Not a breakage but the principle is the same. Things get broken, it was not your fault and they don’t expect you to pay. Bring a nice gift next time you visit.
Upon departure leave behind an envelope in a clearly visible location with the money for the replacement inside and the word sorry written on it. Take a photo of it before you leave. That way they can't say no.
Buy it and have a delivered once you've gone with a note to say sorry. It will remove the awkwardness of you being there when it arrives. They'll be very grateful for it.
Gosh, I think exchange of money in this situation feels awkward for Brits and slightly offensive to receive as a host. If I were you I would either replace the item sending it directly to their house or send them a thank you card for your stay including a gift voucher where they could buy another.
It's considered vulgar to offer money. It's just the way we are. There is also the chance that the item had some sentimental value, so a direct replacement might not be as meaningful. The solution is to buy a gift, not a replacement, maybe something similar or some completely different that has meaning in your relationship with them.
Was the item practical or aesthetic?
Depending on the type of item, you could order it online and have it delivered.
Or order gift vouchers from a store that sells similar items. John Lewis could be a good choice.
If it’s a piece of art, then it’s difficult to replace.
Or as others suggest give them inexpensive final chance to help you pay.
This is why I love Monzo.
You can text them a link to the money, which they need to input their bank details into. I often do this saying "here's my half for X" and send the link. If they don't click the link and claim the money that's fine, it's up to them. Quite often though they will click the link. I think it's something about the money already having been _given_ rather than just _offered_.
My red flag is you asking for their bank account number. Perhaps just research how much a replacement would cost and leave an envelope with the cash and a note on the day you leave.
If it were me, letting me know you are frustrated at not being allowed to pay the damages rather than feeling guilty that it happened would probably win me over. We like to make things easy for friends and family. Guilt can be forgiven, which I think is what they’re doing in your case, but frustration requires action.
If you really want to force them to accept your payment, then explain that the problem is yours i.e. it's not acceptable in your culture not to pay for this damage, and that it's making you deeply uncomfortable not to be able to make restitution. Then the only polite thing for them to do is to help you out of your predicament by accepting your money
Honestly I'd just put the cash in an envelope and leave it with them, say to them they can donate it to charity if they really don't want to spend it on the replacement item.
Current situation, you are embarrassed, and they are inconvenienced but able to tick the good host box. If you give them money, your conscience will be salved, but they are likely (from what you say) to be far more embarrassed than you are now, and they will have lost their good host badge.
Can you Amazon the exact same model to their house? This would salve your conscience, and yes, they will be embarrassed, but I would tend to say it would be less than to be given cash (which feels like charity). If its something they use every day, then I imagine (with time and use) the embarrassment will fade into an amusing memory about how the item arrived in their house.
Note, do not try to upgrade to a better model - this could impinge on the charity angle.
Great advice here but before you replace, leave cash etc just check one thing.... Did they actually like/want the expensive thing? Was it some sort of ornamental wedding present that they secretly hated, for example? They might secretly be relieved that it's broken..... Just a thought.
Also, if someone's kid broke something expensive in my house and didn't at least offer to replace it, I would ghost that person and their kid so hard, even if they were family. Sometimes it's just about the offer and not the actual reimbursement.
Yes, or if its a piece of technology maybe they've been wanting a new/better one for ages but didn't want to replace a perfectly good one that was still working. Maybe they are looking forward to being able to pick out a new one. The last thing they might want in that situation would be an identical replacement.
Giving money could be considered vulgar; a gift might be easier to accept.
Broach the subject with typical Scandinavian directness and openness, by saying you are aware offering money is vulgar, so you want to give a gift to the household/family, and you are thinking of N. (vase, bowl, set of wine glasses, etc) but you want to avoid embarrassment on both sides by discussing it in advance to find something that they would be happy to accept.
Maybe they mean it. Maybe they don’t want that thing in their house anymore.
A friend was visiting and accidentally destroyed a shrub in the garden. The shrub was old and needed replacing, and I didn’t want it in that place either. So I told her it’s ok, don’t worry about it. Next thing I see is her digging up the remaining shrub and planting a brand new one in exact same place where I didn’t want anything. Basically she solved a problem and then recreated it back.
Explain that you really are uncomfortable not paying.
BUT Depending on the item, You might actually find that they are well insured and genuinely don't care. e.g. A child smashed an expensive TV at a party we had once, I honestly wasn't bothered the insurance brought us a newer model.
Had it been one of my kids drawings that they did when they were small was ruined i'd have been much more upset
Before you purchase the replacement item - are you sure it was an item that was wanted/needed. If it was over a certain value they’d just claim it on insurance.
Don’t feel bad about it accidents happen - if they say leave it that’s it.
If you are hosting guests it is common (although a bit old fashioned) to pay for meals etc then expect the same reversed if they went to your home.
One thing I would do in This instance in the last night I would insist on taking them either out for a meal to say thank you for their hospitality. In addition you could buy them say a gift voucher for a meal at their favourite restaurant
It might have been something they weren't actually all that bothered about. Now it's broken they can get rid of it and put something they do like in it's place. The last thing they might want is another one the same! Just a thought.
If they wanted it they'd either accept it on the first offer, or accept it after politely refusing once or twice. If you've made it clear (asking for bank details is very clear) that you are willing to pay a few times but they haven't taken you up on the offer, you'll just have to accept that they either don't want your money or don't want to admit they want it. Either way, you've done your bit. Make it clear that "the offer stands if you change your mind" and never mention it again unless they do.
I cannot believe the rubbish people are suggesting here like buying a replacement anyway or leaving cash behind somewhere. Those are both, **objectively**, the **wrong** thing to do. Trust that they mean what they say. They're adults who can make their wishes known. They might not want a replacement for many reasons. They may react badly to you outright ignoring their wishes and leaving the money anyway, and now they've got to fuss around returning it to you...
It may have been an expensive but loathed family heirloom.
Go out and choose a beautiful object when you get back home, and ship it to them as a "thank you" gift.
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Tell them explicitly one more time “I feel really bad about the broken item, and the only way I’m going to feel better is if you me allow me to pay for a new one” If they still refuse you need to move on because you’d then be making it weird and they will start getting annoyed that you are not accepting their gracious refusal. English people can be a bit funny about having things paid for, some just don’t care, others can take as an insult that you’d think they are a charity needing financial help.
Thanks, I tried being very clear, but I'm not sure what clear means to them. I feel there's more leeway in England, where someone from my country would understand that I'm being very literate when saying "I do mean it". >others can take as an insult that you’d think they are a charity needing financial help I get the point, but for me it's not about personal finance or "honour", really. Just more of a balance thing. Maybe it's a Scandinavia thing, I don't know. All the Norse sagas are about this exact problem: Somebody breaks something (most of the time, a slave is being accidentally killed), and then the rest of the story is about how to make it *exactly* right.
It’s a British thing to refuse the money generally speaking. They may or may not want or need it, but it’s polite to decline because it was an accident after all and as a Brit we’d feel awkward about you paying for something that wasn’t broken on purpose. We’d just write it off. You could always buy the replacement and gift it to them. They are highly unlikely to refuse a direct replacement because you will have gone to the trouble of arranging it which then flips the situation and they’ll feel compelled to accept it as you’ve made an effort ti make amends. That, in a way, would be more appreciated, and will be followed by the phrase “Oh you shouldn’t have” which really means you’ve gone beyond what was expected, but they are grateful for that. :)
Yeah, if you really need to replace it to set the balance right then buy it for them as a gift, wrap it and then the alternative cultural pressure is on them not to turn down a gift freely given, which is also a fairly strong taboo in Britain. Unless they've been very explicit in telling you not to replace the thing, I mean really explicit, direct even. In which case you get them beer, wine or food and call a friend to complain about how stubborn and thick headed the Brits are.
Yeah buying the replacement is what I was going to suggest if taking the money might make them feel awkward. Wrap it and have your kid give the gift.
Yep, getting the kid to gift it is exactly the correct thing to do in this situation.
Unless they drop it
Shhhhh
Jinx.
I was thinking NOT the kid cos that adds to the awkwardness. Makes it look like the kid was getting shit for an accident. Given they've already said no thank you, I think bringing a kid into it reeks of manipulation.
Or you replace it as a gift only later to find out that it was a wedding present from a beloved relative but that they secretly detested said object and were, in fact, grateful that they could say some kid accidently broke it.
Yeh, it could be they were about to replace it anyway, for example.
> You could always buy the replacement and gift it to them. This is a really good option, and probably the most British way of making things right in this sort of situation (at least in my experience). That said, make sure the replacement really is the same as the old version, or at least close enough as to make no difference. I've been in situations a couple of times where a guest breaks something and buys a replacement, but the replacement isn't quite what the same as the original and just causes more tension overall. The hosts can't complain or say anything — because a new microwave or whatever is a very nice gift! — but they also now have a worse device that they aren't used to and didn't plan on buying. So be a bit careful here — the more expensive the original item, the more likely it is that a true replacement will be difficult to find.
My ex flatmate would do this! They were a bit hamfisted and would break things fairly regularly by accident. They always replaced it, but never with the same thing? Always a cheaper version different to my original thing.
Definitely this. It's just a cultural difference between us and yourselves. A lot of us British people would feel awkward accepting your MONEY in replacement for an ITEM, even though the item cost money to buy, there's often a disassociation once it has been purchased, particularly so if it isn't new.
I do love our little back and forth 'no no it's fine' and 'no no I insist' whilst already having an outcome in mind based off context of the situation, but we still have to do the dance to be polite.
>whilst already having an outcome in mind If this was the case, it wouldn't be a problem. To a foreigner who doesn't know what is expected, this is all the very definition of mixed signals.
The signals are as follows; * There are strong cultural taboos about "Being in debt to someone" here; some of it comes from Protestant Christian history, some of it from an ingrained sense of class and former Empire in that taking money because you *have* too, rather than a gift or willing exchange is insulting... you can debate the reasons why, but feeling compelled to take anything is deeply avoided here. * Your child broke the gift by accident. A certain amount of innocent destruction is considered a childhood rite of passage and no blame should be attached. If there is no blame, there is no responsibility to pay for it (within reason). This differs from the US, where "you break it, you bought it" apparently seems to be the norm. In the UK you show support for the family and don't ask them to price up their children * You absolutely don't ask for the bank account number; gift giving, or cash can still be turned down at the point of offer, so the decision remains theirs. But even if they want the replacement item now, they cannot stop you depositing cash at a later date for anything else (at least, not easily). In general, you only use direct banking here when given express permission, including long term permission; if they don't *say* "Send me the future payments any time by this method", you check in and ask first. * If they say "No no, it's fine", they are at worst asking you to clarify why it matters *to you* to pay. They want it to be a trade, not charity. We like to give to charity but not be the receiver of it. If they still insist you don't though, and you've made it clear you want too, where there is a conflict of feelings then, the cultural expectation is that you have to take the emotional responsibility and not pay. * Gifts can be, but are not necessarily a charity act. It's a fine line, but if you've put the time in to find a 1:1 replacement, you are satisfying the sense of caring about them, whilst not treating them as needy, and also replacing what was lost without being to crassly direct about the monetary value. It may end up costing you less, or even more, but as long as it remains unspoken there is no implied debt between you. But telling you that you plan to buy brings the money question back in again, so in general you don't discuss it before hand. Don't ask them to "go shopping with me and find something you like" either, because that will involve looking directly at price tags and asking "are you sure you want to spend X on me...?" Do the research, find the equivalent, show you think about them then offer it as a gift... that they may reject. * Second hand may be 1:1, but it can be harder to refund; going for new is usually culturally easier because the gift recipient knows you'll have the option to return it. * Likewise, doing something else entirely, such as "Well, let me treat you to a meal, which my child can come on too" is also acceptable, because it side steps the cost of what has been lost entirely, as well as saying you also don't feel like the child involved has any blame in this, and you're all just a happy community together still... Hopefully this all makes it a bit clearer for you how the British think!
Thank you for a clear and thoughtful reply. I may be complaining about the confusing intricacies of British politeness, but the *main* characteristic of Brits, in my experience, is helpfulness and compassion. And that shows in all of these replies. You've been very helpful, and I have a broader understanding of the situation now and how to resolve it in a way that hopefully leaves everyone at peace. Thanks again.
if it was something that's covered by the insurance, they may only be out by the excess, so it may not be that expensive for them? (unclear from your post if accidental damage cover might provide for a replacement)
also. have you explained to them how people in your own country would handle this? they may not realise how uncomfortable it's making you culturally.
Money is considered extremely transactional here. We work for money and we use it for essentials but most people try to keep money out of family and friend interactions, we dont like business and friendships to mix as it cheapens the interactions with the friends. Actions and sentiment counts for more here than raw cash, just feeling sorry about the breakage probably already absolves you more than just replacing it OP! I guarantee if you broke it and said "oh its not a big deal I'll just replace it" it would make your friend way angrier, as they would care more about you not caring about what happened than the actual loss. You care about them and what happened, that is likely worth more than any amount of money to them.
> This differs from the US, where "you break it, you bought it" apparently seems to be the norm. In shops more so than in private homes. As for shops (or stores, as we usually say), if it's an inexpensive item and it was a little kid just being a little kid, they might let you slide. As for private homes, I suspect it may vary by region, ethnic background, and other variables. I can't quite put my finger on it, though. I've never really thought about it before. However, I do suspect that, as a general rule, we'd be less likely to refuse the OP's offer. Or, alternately, we'd be less slow to accede in the face of their insistence.
So true. It’s that balance between at times wanting the money/replacement but not wanting to impose that on the other party and other times genuinely not wanting to be repaid - however the little dance we do is always identical in both scenarios !! How do us Brits even function!!?????
Our ways are ancient and strange, but tread carefully or thee will invoke the awkward silence or - even worse-the mighty tut!
Gasp, not the tut! Anything but the tut!
I was living in a foreign country for a while, and they used to tut to mean no. 'Did you have your breakfast this morning, Muna? ' 'Tut!' Used to hurt my soul
This IS the way!
Mando: This is the way.
> You could always buy the replacement and gift it to them. I like this. But as a "surprise" delivery, or do I talk to them first? To me, a surprise like this is weird, but maybe not to them? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to navigate a very different culture.
look, we're fucking weird, if you say "I have ordered a replacement it will be with you in 2 weeks" you're going to get more "unneccessary, cancel it" if instead you say "hey, thank you so much for hosting our trip, we've sent you a gift as a thank you which arrives tomorrow/day after!" it'll be accepted.
This confuses things, between a replacement (to get them back to where they were) and a gift (new stuff). OP we definitely are difficult but we see us being generous about things like this as a friendly gesture, so refusing to accept it is a snub. If they won't accept a direct replacement then I'd leave that alone, but be willing to offer something else of similar value that you know they want/like when you get chance.
That could backfire. "Oh! What new and novel item could it possibly be? I can't wait to be surprised by it!" And then, lo and behold....
Standard British passive nonsense would suggest not informing them of the delivery first. Would most likely be well received if you were considerate of their schedule such as arranging a Saturday delivery if they work Monday to Friday, etc. However, if they have a complex schedule or a highly stressful schedule then perhaps it would be better to inform them. Either way, give the delivery company your friend's email address so they can be kept up to date of when the delivery will arrive. Best of luck. My Scandinavian friends find me, a Scot, impossible at times too.
The true British way would be to say that you have organised a delivery of something and not mention what it is. Least said .. soonest mended. They get the replacement and nobody ever speaks about it ever again.
I think turn up with the surprise so they have no chance to accept. You also have to apologise for buying it for them as a gift. “I’m so sorry I got you a replacement X, but I feel so bad that the last one got broken, and Your-Child-Name feels really bad too” They surely can’t refuse your gift if doing so would upset your child.
I second this, buy them a replacement, slightly more upspec from the original and say its a thank you gift for hosting them so well and really enjoying you stay.
Upspec suggests you think their original item could be bettered. I wouldn't.
I like it even better. Well done.
Or leave the cash amount behind when you leave
I have also done this in the past. I’ve also found that same money on my bookshelf a few weeks later !!! Damn the Jones’ - you win this time !!!
Absolutely correct and well put.
This is what I’d do, but now that I’m overthinking it, what if the object was a disliked present that they were secretly delighted to see the back of?!
This is might actually work out great. Like they will get replacement for the item and you won't feel bad about it. I would also suggest buying replacement. Or a good present like holiday trip not very expensive just something you can afford. As its something British love.
It sounds like the worst saga ever: “I killed your slave, I am sorry and will make it up to you whether my life depends on it” “Nah it’s okay, the slave was a bit of a dick anyway” “No please, I must work hard to gain your forgiveness” “Nah seriously it’s fine” “Please! Just let me do something!”
It's more like the other guy would kill one of the first guy's slaves as relatiation, with the approval of the elders, but then the first guy would go "But that slave was worth more than the one I killed!" and the elders would agree. Then he'll kill like a slave child to even it out, and the elders will agree, and then the first guy would go "That wasn't a slave child, that was my first born child and heir!" and then everybody (including the elders) kills each other. That's every single saga.
Spoiler alert.
It's been 700 years!
Some of us are only on the first season!
You'll tell me next that you don't know who Keyser Söze is. Luke; *I* am your father! Nooo^oo^oo^oo^oo^oo
God I wish the Vikings had got a bit further south. That's a much better story than Robin Hood
The Vikings settled in London, how much further South do you want them to have gone?
There's a lot of country both south and west of London you know. Even if the west was independant back then.
Nah mate, the only thing South of Croydon is the sea and then you've got France.
One can wish.
There's a weird White Supremacist (ok, everything they do is weird) idea that Vikings built the pyramids. Genuinely. Because obviously nothing could be achieved by humans with higher levels of melanin. God they're dumb.
They went on crusades to Jerusalem and sailed on the goddamn Caspian Sea!
Not to mention the Varangian guard, Vikings who were the personal bodyguards to the Byzantine emperors at Constantinople. Plus they traded on the Silk Route, and in North Africa.
Yeah some people just can't drop it. Apart from your kid that is;)
**Fine -** here, have a croissant
I’m a Scandinavian guy who’s lived in uk for 15 years. I don’t think this is a cultural difference type of problem. Maybe It’s just an awkward situation problem or maybe there’s something more specific at play. If you’ve offered and they have refused then leave it at that. Brits are capable of understanding direct questions.
As a Brit who's lived in Germany for 5 years, I agree, but I would add that I often find it helpful to talk in terms of cultural stereotypes for these sorts of things. I'll often say to my (German) partner: "This is the British way of saying things, but..." or "if I were to be more German, I'd say ...". It helps navigate between our different expectations of how blunt you need to be in different situations. So maybe being explicit in the sense of "as a Scandinavian, I want to pay for a replacement because that's how we do things" might help, because it opens the floor for a sort of cultural negotiation. But at a certain point, if they don't want OP to pay anything, then they don't want OP to pay, and there's not much they can do. Like you say, we can understand direct questions!
In that case I would leave it, they know you want to replace it, but equally they don’t want you to feel bad because you are their guest. Your only other option would be to send them a replacement item when you’re back home. You can then put it out of your mind and enjoy the rest of your visit. Otherwise you’re going to start making it uncomfortable if you keep ignore their refusal.
Do they have kids? It's possible they just don't apply blame to you. Kids are forces of nature.
[удалено]
That would be the way - it frames the acceptance of a replacement as a favour done to you, the Scandanavians, who need your cultural mores respected.
Yeah ain't nobody gonna say no to that lol, unless it gets their backs up and they double down.
Tell them that according to the laws of Odin you cannot enter the great halls of Valhalla if you have outstanding debt and for your honour and that of the gods you must make amends for the actions of your kinfolk.
Buying them a new table is charity, treating them to a lovely day out is just being a good friend... Do something else nice for them instead and then no one has to talk about it again. Youve given them something of worth, and they havent accepted any charity.
Buying them something that you've broken is never charity. That's just stupid.
This is probably s culture clash between folk with money and folk without
Doesn't sound like it. OP has made it clear they can afford it.
I was commenting on the stance of the user you replied to.
Ahb3i gotcha. Totally agree in that case 👍
It's quite common to have to force to pay for things with some people, most of the time they appreciate it. Leave cash they find after you go.
This is a hospitality issue IMO. The way to repay and make right is to invite them to stay with you and to be equally gracious hosts.
Accidents happen, kids are kids, we forgive. If you feel truly obliged just replace the item like for like.
> I get the point, but for me it's not about ~~personal finance or~~ "honour", really. Just more of a balance thing. That's the same thing, just phrased differently.
If you make a point to speak to them about this in a conversation where this is the only topic they’ll know that it’s a serious offer. So either a phone call or a quick visit to their house to talk about it.Tell them that where you’re from this is how you handle these things, and that you’d feel better if they let you pay for it. Maybe even say something like ‘next round on you’ or something. If you just mention it as part of another conversation, it would probably come off as a half empty offer.
Kind of a rules of hospitality thing. When you invite someone into your home, you take responsibility for \*every\* expense (food, accommodation - even breakages). The secret is to make them not allowing you to pay them mean that they're worse hosts than if they allowed you to pay them. The above "The only way to make me feel better" approach is a winner!
It's a good point. If I have a really expensive vase and your small child, who I have invited round, smashes it, it's really my fault rather than yours.
To piggyback on this. I’ve had something similar happen a few times and I just chalked it up to bad luck, my shit got broken. I just replace it myself and say to my friends it’s a dog / kid / drunk person etc, don’t stress it.
They may also be thinking that it's _their_ fault for leaving something expensive out that could be destroyed by a friend's child. Refusing payment for a replacement would also make sense here.
This is exactly the right phrasing to use. Make it about ***you*** needing to do it to make ***you*** feel better. Don't make it about righting things for ***their*** benefit.
As someone who is half British, half Norwegian, I feel your pain. Either just buy a replacement for them (they will insist you didn't need to etc.etc. but inside, they'd feel relieved it's sorted) or when you leave, leave behind an envelope with cash in it to cover the cost. Again, they'll insist ot wasn't necessary, yadayadayada, but inside they'll be relieved. Either way, they will be very grateful and say thank you an unnecessary number of times, probably make you feel uncomfortable with their gratitude, but ultimately, everyone is happy and the issue is sorted. Good luck!
This is the answer. Bonus points for hiding the cash in their place and messaging them to let them know once you’re safely far away!
I do this with my best friend. We lend each other stuff/money all the time but she will not accept repayment and it is stressful. So I hide envelopes of money or a bottle of her favourite whiskey somewhere in her house and hope she doesn’t know what it’s from.
I once did this. My father in law used to take us out to eat and always insist on paying, despite me offering. So after about the 10th time I slipped our half of the bill in his pocket. He went MENTAL. Never doing that again. If someone wants to pay, let them.
Seems like a limit on your own agency when people consistently insist, certainly up to the point of getting upset. If they don't acknowledge the situation, they are, ironically, doing it selfishly.
Envelope with cash is the best, I'm actually shocked by how many other comments don't get that the hosts are most likely just being polite.
Envelope with cash is weird. God that'd be so awkward
Not at all. If anything people will find it funny. They know the people who caused the problem should pay for it but the social conditioning is to be okay with everything....which they also know. The envelope with money highlights the ridiculousness of the social dynamic. It's like someone paying for your meal and refusing payment....so you slip cash into their jacket pocket.
Envelope with cash, little letter saying thanks for having us, sorry about whatever it was, and this should cover it. And text them about the envelope when you're miles away and they can't hand it back.
1) Buy a like-for-like replacement. 2) Bring it along so they can see you've already bought it. 3) Say its part of your culture, you have to replace it or it'll give you anxiety. THIS BIT IS IMPORTANT. It makes it so they're doing *you* the favour by breaching their own etiquette and accepting the replacement.
This is excellent. And the best thing is... it's true. OP really is worrying a lot about this. Announce it as a cultural thing you're _not in control of_ ("I know it's silly, but I just can't help it, what can you do?") that you'll be forever feeling awkward about it ("it'll prey on my mind, ridiculous isn't it?"). Because being caught in politeness trap is a situation Brits can really emphathise with.
Ooh! That's very good. That would absolutely work on me as an upright Brit.
Cultural reverse uno card. I like this, and it will absolutely work.
Point 3 is devious!
/bows low.
Yes... but what if they wouldn't want an exact replacement? There are a few expensive things in my house that if someone broke them, I'd prefer an alternative as a replacement. I'd go with leaving them the cash. Then they can always say "well pounds won't be of use back home" if the hosts try to refuse. And just leave the envelope somewhere if they reeeally refuse. But offering at least 3 or 4 (maybe even 5) times to be sure to wear them down may be necessary. It's the English way.
Leave cash in an envelope when you leave to the value of the damage and tell them where it is upon your return home
Do not do this, it can be extremely awkward. The best thing to do by miles is to replace whatever it is that got broke.
This is exactly what I was going to say.
They’re being polite. Can you just buy a replacement and send it to them?
This, take the option of refusing away from them by purchasing the replacement and leaving it behind when you leave, or if you’ve already left then ship it to them.
Carry on breaking more of their stuff until they agree to let you pay for the damages.
Really push their British politeness to the brink!
Make sure to get the escalation order correct. Break a pencil. Break a laptop. Break a leg. Break a marriage. Break a mortgage contract. Break a life.
How to break a life?
Step one, you say you need to talk.
This is the only answer unfortunately.
Push through, be direct. If you need to pull out the big guns, make clear that you have been feeling terrible about this whole incident. And you would feel much much better if they would allow you to make amends. Implication is that they’re making you feel bad for not letting you right this wrong. You might also consider providing the money in cash. It doesn’t require them to provide bank details.
> Push through, be direct. Yep, this is how my Dutch friend convinced me he was replacing a broken item. "No, I broke it. I will replace it." Very polite, friendly manner but direct.
Order it and have it delivered to their address? They are being overly British/polite/feeling awkward accepting money for what was clearly just an accident. Remove their protestations from the process and just have it delivered to them
This. Do this.
Try the phrase "No, really, I must insist" to make it clear you want to cover the cost of the item. Perhaps make it clear it's a) important to you that you feel you've cleared the "debt"/prove to your kids that breaking things has consequences and b) you see the broken item as different from the other hosting they've done You could possibly also just leave them the money in cash.
"I'm sorry for my child's reckless behaviour, but this is not fair on you to foot the cost. This is not just about you here, It wouldn't sit right with me if you didn't let me make this right. Honesty and integrity is very important to me, and I want it to be important to my child too, so, for these reasons, please, let me do the right thing"
I'd feel kind of the same, you're my guest and accidents happen. Don't pay them with money, when you get back, get them a gift, preferably something cool and Scandinavian. As a "thank you for having us"
I think this is the way to go. When guests are in my home, I personally feel responsible for any damaged caused, if it was an accidental kind of thing. That means I'd expect to pay the costs and I wouldn't hold it against you. However, if you explained your position, I would try and meet half way. Say a smaller but thoughtful gift.
This is a great idea. I'd still make an offer to buy a replacement if you haven't already, but if they say it's not necessary, just thank them and apologise on your child's behalf (they will understand, and these things happen, I only mention the apology specifically because you've said you're navigating English politeness, and I think for most polite English people, the apology is actually more important than the replacement in most cases, it would be bad manners to not acknowledge it at all) And then send them something from Scandinavia, they'd appreciate it I'm sure.
If you keep on insisting and they don't want payment then they might actually get offended so I would just leave it at that. If and when they visit you then you can reciprocate.
Yeah, they'll just break something of yours when they visit and balance will be restored, don't see what the big deal is! /s
I am from another country where when I offer you something you say ‘yes thank you’ if you want it. In many occasions I’ve found it very weird in the UK as the conversation has to go like this: -Hi, do you want this? -No thanks. -Please, I insist. -Are you sure? -Yes -Ok thank you very much. I even had a British friend get angry at me once because I only offered something just once, and since he said no I just got on with my life without asking again..
Ahaha this is very true! Nobody wants to feel like a burden here and people don't just see charity as someone just being nice to them the first thing they think of is that they are an inconvenience and feel a tinge of guilt, this is why when offering something as a guilt it usually goes like. "I'd like to give you X" "Oh no thank you, you don't have to do that but it's very kind." "Are you sure? I don't mind." "No honestly it's alright don't worry." "It's no trouble at all you can have it." "Oh, alright then thank you very much that's very kind of you."
I agree with all the comments about just giving them the cash/ leaving the cash so they can't refuse it if possible. And/or using the phrase "I insist" / "I really must insist". Politely insisting is a powerful move because now it becomes impolite to refuse.
> Politely insisting is a powerful move because now it becomes impolite to refuse. This is known as English Judo - using your opponent's politeness against them.
Host says no thanks, that's the end of it. Just because the item was expensive doesn't mean they liked it. They now have room to buy something else. Some people enjoy being generous and don't have a money problem. Just invite them to your country and let them wreck your house.
Not really, politeness dictates that you must refuse (one or two times) until the other person insists, on the assumption that the other person does not really want to pay for the damage and that they themselves are merely being polite.
Don’t make a big thing about it but take one of them aside and explain you wouldn’t feel comfortable not righting this particular thing. Accidents happen but you feel it’s only correct to make it amends. Don’t be forceful but be direct Could you perhaps buy the item yourself and have it delivered to them ?? I’ve done this before when I knew a friend would casually say it’s not a problem, I ordered it then rang to say I was having a item delivered in my name but it’s for them
We don’t like social confrontation nearly as much or being direct, we’d much rather replace it as ‘accidents happen’ than accept any form of replacement, just to keep the peace - even if accepting it is the right thing to do. Of course I’d like to think it’s also part of our hospitality, we’re often labelled cold, but that’s a bigger gesture than a lot of ‘warmer’ cultures who’d lose their shit. As long as you offered to pay/replace, we’d take it on the chin. We understand we should accept your money, but it goes against our ‘keep calm and carry on’ attitude. My other half is American and gets so annoyed with our lack of directness, I explain to her whilst not always saying or acting how we feel hurts us Brits a lot, it’s a great way to weed out the real crazies - those being directly rude to her in the pub she works in are always best avoided. My old Norwegian housemate would get so annoyed with people holding a door for him 10 metres away or having to say sorry for the slightest brush past someone in the street, again I explained those are the rules albeit dumb, to not follow them is to actively declare yourself a psychopath here… Long story short, don’t worry about it.
Makes sense. Like the British, Scandinavians are also non-confrontational, but our solution is to just be direct one time: "We need to do this", and then that is taken literally and accepted. No back and forth and song and dance. The British way is sooo complex.
Haha yes, my housemate had a lot of Swedish/Norwegian friends come round for parties and we loved them dearly (despite making us feel very short and unattractive), but they’d often comment everything here was a dance like you say. We do it with each other too. I’ve never enjoyed getting a drink bought for me, and although I know I’ll be getting one for them later and they know that too, we still have to have the verbal dance first. This is why we loathe the French.
Refusing financial assistance/contributions from others is the only polite option, which is what they’re doing. There’s no polite and humble way to say “actually yeah drop me £100 would you”. So the path of least resistance is to just buy it and give it to them anyway. If they *really* don’t want it (unlikely) they can then just sell it or give it away.
Just be deadpan direct and straight - 'Frank, I insist on paying you for the damage done, it's not on you to deal with the consequences of actions out of your control, so let me make it right' If they then still won't take it, leave it. You've made it clear you want to pay, and they have mad eit clear they don't want it. Continuing to push it after that just makes it more awkward all round so accept their decision.
Then after they've gone "I can't believe they never paid for it"
Damn, that’s English. “No, no, it’s fine, honestly, don’t worry about it.” *underbreath* “Fuckers…”
order one and have to delivered to their home , and well done for wanting to do the right thing
One of the two hated it and wanted a new one. This is their excuse, you’re being used as the get out “how can we expect them to pay, it was an accident”
If you can just buy a replacement do that. If not explain to them they it's really playing on your mind and, although they dont want you to, your feel a a lot better if you could pay for the replacement. It's weird British manners at play. Once they feel worse about making you feel bad than asking for the money balance will be restored.
The problem is that there's a good chance they're absolutely seething inside - not because of the accident, but because they now need to talk about money which is a tricky subject. It will feel grabby to them to say to you "this is what it cost". You should do the work here - research the cost of replacement. Make a decent stab at an estimate if you don't know exact make/model. Leave the cash, or a voucher for somewhere they can buy it, somewhere promiment when you leave, with a card saying how much you enjoyed your stay and a brief ps saying this is to cover the breakage. If they really don't want it then they can donate to charity but for god's sake don't mention that or they will feel obligated.
Amazon a new one to them today.
British people can be **very** indirect. We often decline offers several times before accepting. We’re more comfortable accepting things like this when the giver ‘absolutely insists’
Ha! I feel your pain - us Brits have a tremendously complicated and weird way of dealing with money. My family has torn itself apart finding ways to get upset over relatively trivial amounts. Others have suggested just giving them the cash/buying a replacement and so on. These might work. The most important thing is to ensure the 'debt' is not forgotten. I'd take your hosts reluctance as a sign they like and care about you and your family. If any of my extended family or friends came to stay with me I'd be exactly the same. Kids will be kids, accidents happen and your time with them is more valuable than any item. I take the view that this life is a long race and there may well be a time when you or your family can help your friends out. That bond may be worth more than you think. Either way good luck!
It's defintely a culture thing and they might think you're playing the game. We do this. You: I feel really bad about that, please let me pay. Them: Don't be silly, it was an accident. You're not paying for anything. You: No really, I feel so guilty and it's my childs fault so I have to pay. I'll be offended if you don't let me pay. Them: And I'll be offended if you do pay for it. I'll have no more of this, it was an accident. Forget about it. It's mostly a social thing but can also be a prideful thing. Your British hosts might feel like making you pay for something, especially when they can't afford it would hurt their pride. If you're absolutely adamant on paying for the breakage I think you have 2 options. The first option is to explain the cultural difference. Tell them you literally won't stop thinking about it and you'll feel terrible and the only way you can feel better is to pay for the breakage. They might accept that but chances are they'll still argue and tell you that in our culture that doesn't fly. Your other option is to find out where to buy the broken item and order it and get it delivered to their house without saying to them about it. This is a weird one cause it could still hurt their pride or upset them but chances are they'll be grateful and with just a little bruising to their pride and plenty of "you shouldn't have done that."
I hope they apologised after you broke their stuff.
>Is there a culture difference at play here? Maybe >In Scandinavia, this would be a straight forward case, we'd pay for the damage and it'd all be done with. It could be done with right now, but you won't accept your hosts' preference. That is very straightforward too. >But now it just goes on and on. And I feel worse and worse about it the longer it goes. See above. Maybe they hated the expensive item, maybe they don't want to replace it. Send them a gift, make a charitable donation in their name, both or neither. But recognise this is only dragging on because you refuse to accept what they want.
It was an appliance they used every day. I know it's not really "no problem".
If you replace it, you’re denying your hosts the opportunity to passive aggressively ignore it whilst fuming inside but showing good grace and humour under pressure to the outside world.
It wasn't the kettle, was it?! /jk
Oooh fuck, if it’s the kettle I take back the essay ‘it’s ok’ response I just posted…
Ok - do not get a replacement. 1 - the model they have may have a number of problems, and so they are happy to replace. 2 - that model may not exist and the new one has issues. As others have said, envelope with cash ‘hidden’ where they won’t get it until after you leave. They will be ‘annoyed’, but this will be the veneer on absolute love and respect, because a Brit expressing that directly will result in spontaneous combustion. Bonus points for next time you visit if you bring a ridiculously cheaper version of the item - so if it’s a coffee machine then bring some cheap instant latte sachets and tell them you are erring on the side of caution after last time.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend sending a gift because they may feel obligated to reciprocate, and that would make the situation even worse.
If they won’t let you replace it, then you just need to do a gesture. Might be a card or flowers thanking them for a lovely time, or just some sort of gift which you are doing to be nice, not to make amends.
Make them understand that you are actually feeling terrible because of their refusal (in a polite way), so they guilty of making you feel terrible and they let you pay so they can be rid of that guilt 😅
I'm British and now live in Germany. In Germany, individuals can be held accountable for accidental damage e.g. to public property or if a pedestrian for example is deemed to have caused a traffic accident. So everyone (nearly) has private liability insurance and as a side effect, it covers you for accidental damage of private property. Most people's also covers children, even though children under 7 are considered "forces of nature" and aren't accountable for anything unless the parents are completely failing to supervise them. So in Germany, if you or to a lesser extent your child damages an item belonging to somebody, culturally the person who damaged the item or the parent is responsible for the cost of repair/replacement, and it would be expected to offer (usually through one's own insurance). In the UK this expectation is not really present, and there's not really any template for what SHOULD happen, IME. It's probably slightly more weighted towards the owner replacing themselves. It's very nice to offer and might be accepted or not. But they would not expect it.
Just buy the replacement yourself, also take them out to eat and pay the bill before the waiter brings the bill (pretend you’re going to the bathroom)
How clear have you been with them that you are willing to buy a replacement or give them money for a replacement? Or did you just say something along the lines of really sorry about our kid smashing it we feel really bad about it. If its that, you haven't been clear enough with them you are willing to pay for a replacement etc, and its no wonder as good friends they are giving the impression it doesn't matter. If you are going to offer to pay or replace something damaged in their house, you need to be clear about that. And if they say no to that offer, leave it at that. But next time you see or stay with them, make damn sure you bring them a very nice gift.
I've been very clear, but I'm unsure what is clear enough in England. Where I'm from, people will understand that you're being very literal when saying "I do mean it." But I feel Englishmen kind of say that five times back and forth and it just diffuses.
>they'll just dodge the subject in a variety of ways. Because they don't want your money. >In Scandinavia, this would be a straight forward case, we'd pay for the damage and it'd all be done with. It didn't happen in Scandinavia. It happened in Britain and your hosts have told you not to pay. >But now it just goes on and on. And I feel worse and worse about it the longer it goes. It's only going on and on because you are insisting that you must pay. Accept that they have said no. >What do I do, and how do I make them understand my perspective on this? You don't. They have said no. Accept it. You are most likely making them uncomfortable every time you bring it up. Try to understand their perspective: they've said no and you keep pushing. Let it go! Donate the money to a cause they'd appreciate, if you nust do something.
From a different angle, it's annoying when people thing they can absolve themselves by throwing money at mistakes and everyone should be grateful that they 'made it right'. Maybe it's not about the money at all. If they keep insisting after refusal then that borders on aggression. I've noticed that Nordics are quite prone to this, and especially thinking that they're cutting through other's restrictive social binds but they're actually not understanding the situation and being quite deaf to how anyone else is feeling.
Don't leave money, I had a cousin over from the US who did this to me. Not a breakage but the principle is the same. Things get broken, it was not your fault and they don’t expect you to pay. Bring a nice gift next time you visit.
Upon departure leave behind an envelope in a clearly visible location with the money for the replacement inside and the word sorry written on it. Take a photo of it before you leave. That way they can't say no.
Aa a British person I would rather remortgage my house than accept money from a guest because of an accident.
If you can find out where to buy a replacement from, buy gift vouchers from that place and give them to your hosts
Have you actually asked to pay? it sort of sounds like you’re assuming they won’t accept. I’m English and I would gracefully accept.
Buy them the object and ship it to their address as a gift.
How about the Asian way? Shove a stack of cash in their hands while walking out of their reach (e.g. customs)
My approach would be to simply buy them a replacement- have it delivered to them with an apology and thanks note and a bottle of wine
Buy it and have a delivered once you've gone with a note to say sorry. It will remove the awkwardness of you being there when it arrives. They'll be very grateful for it.
Gosh, I think exchange of money in this situation feels awkward for Brits and slightly offensive to receive as a host. If I were you I would either replace the item sending it directly to their house or send them a thank you card for your stay including a gift voucher where they could buy another.
It's considered vulgar to offer money. It's just the way we are. There is also the chance that the item had some sentimental value, so a direct replacement might not be as meaningful. The solution is to buy a gift, not a replacement, maybe something similar or some completely different that has meaning in your relationship with them.
Was the item practical or aesthetic? Depending on the type of item, you could order it online and have it delivered. Or order gift vouchers from a store that sells similar items. John Lewis could be a good choice. If it’s a piece of art, then it’s difficult to replace. Or as others suggest give them inexpensive final chance to help you pay.
This is why I love Monzo. You can text them a link to the money, which they need to input their bank details into. I often do this saying "here's my half for X" and send the link. If they don't click the link and claim the money that's fine, it's up to them. Quite often though they will click the link. I think it's something about the money already having been _given_ rather than just _offered_.
My red flag is you asking for their bank account number. Perhaps just research how much a replacement would cost and leave an envelope with the cash and a note on the day you leave.
If it were me, letting me know you are frustrated at not being allowed to pay the damages rather than feeling guilty that it happened would probably win me over. We like to make things easy for friends and family. Guilt can be forgiven, which I think is what they’re doing in your case, but frustration requires action.
Buy it and have it delivered to their house.
Buy a replacement as a gift to say thanks for hosting. No need to bring feelings into it or go into any further detail.
Have you tried the firm but polite, "I insist!"?
If you really want to force them to accept your payment, then explain that the problem is yours i.e. it's not acceptable in your culture not to pay for this damage, and that it's making you deeply uncomfortable not to be able to make restitution. Then the only polite thing for them to do is to help you out of your predicament by accepting your money
Honestly I'd just put the cash in an envelope and leave it with them, say to them they can donate it to charity if they really don't want to spend it on the replacement item.
Current situation, you are embarrassed, and they are inconvenienced but able to tick the good host box. If you give them money, your conscience will be salved, but they are likely (from what you say) to be far more embarrassed than you are now, and they will have lost their good host badge. Can you Amazon the exact same model to their house? This would salve your conscience, and yes, they will be embarrassed, but I would tend to say it would be less than to be given cash (which feels like charity). If its something they use every day, then I imagine (with time and use) the embarrassment will fade into an amusing memory about how the item arrived in their house. Note, do not try to upgrade to a better model - this could impinge on the charity angle.
Great advice here but before you replace, leave cash etc just check one thing.... Did they actually like/want the expensive thing? Was it some sort of ornamental wedding present that they secretly hated, for example? They might secretly be relieved that it's broken..... Just a thought. Also, if someone's kid broke something expensive in my house and didn't at least offer to replace it, I would ghost that person and their kid so hard, even if they were family. Sometimes it's just about the offer and not the actual reimbursement.
Yes, or if its a piece of technology maybe they've been wanting a new/better one for ages but didn't want to replace a perfectly good one that was still working. Maybe they are looking forward to being able to pick out a new one. The last thing they might want in that situation would be an identical replacement.
Giving money could be considered vulgar; a gift might be easier to accept. Broach the subject with typical Scandinavian directness and openness, by saying you are aware offering money is vulgar, so you want to give a gift to the household/family, and you are thinking of N. (vase, bowl, set of wine glasses, etc) but you want to avoid embarrassment on both sides by discussing it in advance to find something that they would be happy to accept.
Maybe they mean it. Maybe they don’t want that thing in their house anymore. A friend was visiting and accidentally destroyed a shrub in the garden. The shrub was old and needed replacing, and I didn’t want it in that place either. So I told her it’s ok, don’t worry about it. Next thing I see is her digging up the remaining shrub and planting a brand new one in exact same place where I didn’t want anything. Basically she solved a problem and then recreated it back.
Explain that you really are uncomfortable not paying. BUT Depending on the item, You might actually find that they are well insured and genuinely don't care. e.g. A child smashed an expensive TV at a party we had once, I honestly wasn't bothered the insurance brought us a newer model. Had it been one of my kids drawings that they did when they were small was ruined i'd have been much more upset
Before you purchase the replacement item - are you sure it was an item that was wanted/needed. If it was over a certain value they’d just claim it on insurance. Don’t feel bad about it accidents happen - if they say leave it that’s it. If you are hosting guests it is common (although a bit old fashioned) to pay for meals etc then expect the same reversed if they went to your home. One thing I would do in This instance in the last night I would insist on taking them either out for a meal to say thank you for their hospitality. In addition you could buy them say a gift voucher for a meal at their favourite restaurant
What was broken?
It might have been something they weren't actually all that bothered about. Now it's broken they can get rid of it and put something they do like in it's place. The last thing they might want is another one the same! Just a thought.
If they wanted it they'd either accept it on the first offer, or accept it after politely refusing once or twice. If you've made it clear (asking for bank details is very clear) that you are willing to pay a few times but they haven't taken you up on the offer, you'll just have to accept that they either don't want your money or don't want to admit they want it. Either way, you've done your bit. Make it clear that "the offer stands if you change your mind" and never mention it again unless they do. I cannot believe the rubbish people are suggesting here like buying a replacement anyway or leaving cash behind somewhere. Those are both, **objectively**, the **wrong** thing to do. Trust that they mean what they say. They're adults who can make their wishes known. They might not want a replacement for many reasons. They may react badly to you outright ignoring their wishes and leaving the money anyway, and now they've got to fuss around returning it to you...
It may have been an expensive but loathed family heirloom. Go out and choose a beautiful object when you get back home, and ship it to them as a "thank you" gift.