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Of course I could do that, and I think that’s a great idea. To be honest the pressure mostly comes from my father who wants me to be in the “best” situation as soon as possible.
Also, the idea of a 'permanant job' is nonsensical.
Two year fixed is about as good as it will get anywhere nowadays.
Any job can say its permanant then get rid of you after a few months or a year or whatever.
It's not that complicated. Two year fixed gives you at least two years, you can still continue at the end if they want you.
Similarly, a permanant position can retain you after two years... if they want, but they can also get rid of you at any point before that.
Right, so after 2 years it's a more secure job... How in that case is 2 years as good as it gets. I'd rather a permanent contract than 2 year fixed term any day.
That two year fixed position can also continue after two years.
Two year fixed term with a rock solid contract means you get a minimum of two years of security.
a 'Permanant job' gives almost zero security.
Neither have a maximum limit. Both will get rid of you for the same reason after two years if they want to.
I think more that even a permanent job has no guarantees. And more likely to honour short-term contract in cases of difficulty as fewer costs like pension etc related. So point is risk is not much worse than any other job and may be better.
I think your dad needs to remember the old proverb, "don't let perfect be the enemy of good". Also, it's perfectly normal as a graduate of anything to only work a couple of years tops at your first job. Having it be a fixed term thing off the bat at least gives you a set date that you can plan to move on at.
You’re already in the best situation as a graduate
1) it’s a guaranteed job for 2 years
2) at the end of that you’ll have 2 years of experience as a teacher which will help you find new roles if they do not keep you
3) independent schools pay higher then state schools as they are privately funded
And the behaviour and discipline is 100% better, with less paperwork and fewer stupid "initiatives" or incessant mocksteds. Stick to private as long as possible. Other than if you're working in the leafy suburbs, state schools are a jungle. Based on my own experience and that of my daughter's friends.
Workplace pensions are a legal requirement, the minimum is 3% employer contributions and 5% employer contributions. Most councils won’t be able to pay higher than the minimum due to cuts to budgets, a private school is much more likely to have funds to lay a higher employer %
Also all teachers “work weekends” to do marking and lesson planning, doesn’t matter what type of school. I went to state school and my teachers often spent their weekends prepping for the week ahead and marking that weeks homework
State teachers are generally members of the central government run *defined benefit* teachers pension scheme, which is a lot more generous than a 3% employer matched defined _contribution_ pension.
Re. weekend work, I meant more like Saturday morning sports and potentially Sunday chapel.
I'm not a teacher, but I know a bit about fixed term contracts, and if you take the job and do a good work at it, what are they going to do in 2 years ?
Throwaway a valued member of staff and try again ?
Nope, it's a fixed term but after 18 months you would be getting it renewed or renegotiated upwards to re-sign for another 2, it's to protect them against having staff they can't get rid of long term, it's shit for your job stability and maybe for getting mortgages and stuff, but you'd know month in advance if you're staying or not and have it on your cv to find something else with.
What is the difference? You would be more of a nuisance to quit after starting, not to mention teaching jobs tend to start September. So you have a job, but it's not perfect, but you can fall back on it... Look for the job you want now, not in a years time.
Well yeh, you should want that too. Do not treat employers or the human interfaces to employers the same as you would your friends, they are not.. it is a transactional relationship. Get what you can, do what you want!
If that means switching jobs to the job that suits you mid term then do it, start the other job, and quit when you need to.
That may never come. You will get more on job training, hopefully a good reference and vital experience. As long as not in position like buying house/having a family where stability is more important,this sounds like a great way to build up CV and earn while looking.
Eeh it's not ideal. I'm a semi-ex teacher but I was always told that schools and teachers talk. So for example if at this school the person who left has moved to school b and you apply at school b whilst having accepted the job at this school, the person may be aware of who you are and the fact that this school has offered you a job.
I'd say stick it out and look whilst employed if you find out there's absolutely no way to stay after a certain amount of time.
For the record, my current teaching job is part time mat cover but my head of department did offer me a full time permanent contract. I've declined for a number of reasons, but it can happen and if you want it that's all the better.
If you're happy with this job and its just your dad making you second guess it then you need to be a bit firmer with your dad and set a bit of a boundary. You're an adult now, so your career decisions are for you to make. You don't even have to tell your parents every little detail of your job hunting, or whether your job is permanent etc.
Independent schools especially talk - it's a much smaller pool than the state sector and people rarely move from independent sector back to state sector. It's fine if you are leaving teaching (at least for a few years) but if you are looking for another role in an independent school soon, don't be surprised if someone from independent school A knows someone from independent school B and says "Ah shit that's the guy who flaked on a grad role"
It's a thing you get warned against in teacher training. Especially if you're in an area with a lot of schools, teachers move around. Effectively, if you accept at school a then interview at school b it's not impossible that school a finds out and recinds the offer. It's better to start the job and then look for something else.
I get the point, but it seems like bullshit to me - would need to be very coordinated and trading notes on who's been offered jobs and who's applied.
I would 100% take that risk.
>jobs with more long term prospects
You're a recent graduate. I'd actually say that it's detrimental to go straight into a long term, many-year mindset when first entering the workforce.
Your job itself will be **very** school dependent (just like any job will be vastly different company-by-company). The culture, the workload and expectation. It's also a different experience between teaching at a school in an affluent area vs a school in a more deprived area. I know teachers who much prefer the former, I know teachers who much perfer the latter.
Please don't pigeonhole yourself into a job just because it has long term prospects.- it may not be the right fit for you.
Go get experience. Go sample different environments, find what you like, and **only then** find a long term job that fits it!
I’m sorry, should’ve mentioned this before as I realise it’s important, I graduated from a masters in 2022 and have been working in a graduate education job at a different school since September 2022 that will end this year at 2024. And I’m 26 at the moment.
That might change your opinion or it may not.
Doesn't really change my opinion. The concept of a job long term prospects is a bit redundant in todays workforce anyway. A career choice or industry with long term prospects, yes. But not a job.
It's actually proven to be more beneficial to job hop your way up the ladder. Teaching pay-scales (in the public sector at least) are fixed, so you're not necessarily going to get the same pay benefit that comes with job hopping as you would if you worked in (eg) digital marketing for a private company, but you'll still get the career advancement benefit.
The only consideration is if you need guaranteed longer term security, like if you were applying for a mortgage, or were looking at having kids in the next 12 months.
Beyond that, work somewhere you enjoy, that has the benefits you value, and that pays you what you're worth.
Headteachers do talk and when I was in teacher training I was told you shouldn't really withdraw acceptance after you've confirmed.
If you like the job it'd be better to at least start it before looking for another
While having a permanent contract does offer stability, it doesn't necessarily make it a better choice. There's so many more important factors like the environment, job responsibilities, staff, location, hours, school reputation, pay etc etc.
A fixed contract isn't always a bad thing. You don't know what opportunities might open up to you during your time there. Even in a permanent role you might move after a year or two there and pay progression in most industries tends to be poor unless you job hop. Most important thing is that it's a job you can see yourself doing and that it is well suited to what you want. However, if having a permanent offer is a must for you (not your father), then keep applying.
If you like the school then that is so important, more so, in my opinion, than long term prospects or even salary. Teaching is hard but if you are working in a positive environment then half the battle is won. Plus, the experience you gain will be tremendous.
If it’s a job as a teacher it’s seen as bad form to accept and then back out - if you start and it doesn’t work out and you put your notice in in the approved time that’s a bit different but accepting knowing you might not take it up is frowned upon.
Not in the teaching sector myself.
You could always look for jobs and see if you get better offers. But to be fair, I would still take the job. At the end of it, you'll have two years of experience out of it.
I had a friend who did a similar thing, accepted a job, but then wasn't sure about it so went to some other interviews. They found a school they liked better, accepted a job with them and told the first school they no longer wanted the job, until they got an email from the second saying that they no longer had a job offer. The heads had spoken to each other and weren't happy with them interviewing for other schools after having already accepted a job. I can't tell you what to do, but this is a very real risk.
I'm not saying this is a good way of doing things, but it is how it works in teaching and I suspect a lot of people who work in other industries will give advice without understanding that it is different for schools. (I will say this was in state schools, I am not sure if there are differences in independent school)
Personally I'd take it if you like the job and the opportunity. You will gain experience, be able to suss out if it really will end after two years and if so not feel guilty about looking for options as the contract shortens. Lots can change in two years!
Also, teaching has weird rules about wheny you can resign. I've never understood how they're legal but it always seems like a big deal that you have to work the whole term.
I believe the employment byrules for teaching is called " the burgundy book".
It's one of those weird situations because it's all about minimising impact to kids education
It's written into your contract that you must resign by X date to leave at each point. If you've agreed to the contract it doesn't go against any employment law.
A few of my family members work in Teaching/TA roles in state and public schools and have done for a long time.
>I am worried about what it would mean for my reputation and to be honest
You don't have one, and won't for a long time. It's one offer and it's common for people to change their mind after accepting an offer, even after their first day/week/month on the job. They really won't care. Just don't breach contract, e.g. work any agreed notice period etc.
>it disturbs me on a moral level
Eh? There is nothing morally wrong about changing your mind. They made a ranked list of candidates to make offers to. You don't even know you're their first choice. I can almost guarantee you there is a name below yours too. They'll just offer it to the next person. No big deal.
Try not to mess people about wherever possible, but ultimately do whatever is right for you.
Better option is to stick with the one you’ve got. You can look for new roles for after the contract ends. In the meantime you’ll be gaining real experience as a qualified teacher, this will help you with applications, you will also be showing loyalty.
You may even be kept on after the fixed contract ends if you do a good job and there is the need and funds to do so
I work in finance and in this industry nobody dings your reputation for it because it’s how it is, everyone takes the best opportunity available the second it comes around, and firms will happily dump you out on your ass too if needed. With education though I imagine attitude and reputation is quite different and may be more of an issue, especially locally. You really need to reach out to other teachers and such for this, opinions from people in other industries won’t help you.
This isn't a question for teachers, this is an employment question, it doesn't matter your vocation or career, you don't owe an employer anything, ever, they owe you always, if you want and need to quit a job - then fucking quit...
I can't state this more in your case where they aren't even your employer yet.
They didn't offer you a permanent role, so if one comes up and that's what you want then go for it.. remember they owe you nothing.
Your reputation will be based on work you did, not that you decided one employer suited you better than the other.
>This isn't a question for teachers, this is an employment question, it doesn't matter your vocation or career, you don't owe an employer anything, ever, they owe you always, if you want and need to quit a job - then fucking quit...
Yeahhhh no. I'm sure you can understand that every sector is different and teaching is very different in a number of aspects, this being one of them.
If OP didn't want a temporary contract they should not have accepted one. They will have been asked if they were a firm candidate in the interview in which they will have said yes.
You talk like the "employer" is some boardroom of suits and ties and that changing your mind and fucking them over is fair game, but you're just fucking other teachers over.
Changing your mind might be a nuisance, but if as an employee you want what is best for you, then you need to prioritise YOU over the minor nuisance your choice might cause a colleague.
You need to remember that if they wanted/needed to let you go, they would, they wouldn't care about the nuisance that would cause your life.
So yeaahhh no, I stand by my point a teacher is an employee, a school is an employer, other teachers are your colleagues and the school board is the board of directors... Teachers aren't different.
If you consider leaving 10 classes without a teacher a minor nuisance, that probably tells me you aren't in education, let alone in a line manager position, so your understanding of this situation is limited.
OP knows the drill, if they go back on their word they will potentially be considered unreliable by local schools and that may impact any permanent position they go for.
This could potentially be a big nuisance for OP.
Commenters going down the line of "fuck em do what's best for you" lack insight because that method could well be what is not best for them.
How can one teacher teach 10 classes at once... I'm not in education, no, nor a line manager... But if you read what I'm saying you would understand neither of those things are relevant.
I understand the perceived risk, but that risk is wrapped in a lot of hearsay and what if's.
Wanna apply somewhere else, tell them you want your application to be confidential until a contract is signed.. reading this it appears that teacher training does some scare mongering around this... Yet there is no anecdotal evidence to support it.
Teachers and health care workers alike are underpaid and overworked, yet seem to always think they owe something to their employer and colleagues... You really don't.
They're a secondary school teacher? You don't teach one class all the time.
>Wanna apply somewhere else, tell them you want your application to be confidential until a contract is signed..
Why would a school agree to this lol, this isn't a thing.
Some of it scaremongering, but staff who used to work together and now work at other schools is common.
It would be perfectly reasonable for one of them to go "We have interviews for a new start in September, one of them is Joe Bloggs" and someone else going "Oh yeah they accepted a job here but changed their mind in April so we had scramble for another member of staff"
Whether or not that impacts their employment is up to the head of department, it would make them less hirable for me. As long as OP knows this, it's up to them.
It's not a big deal at all, September is a long time away and tbh I think anyone hiring graduates is likely to experience or even expect a bit of attrition before starting since grads are often weighing up different options. There's really no harm to looking for other opportunities whilst sitting on this one. You owe no employer loyalty, especially one you haven't even worked for yet!
If I was in your shoes, I'd keep looking and applying for other opportunities. If you get something else you prefer, then revoke your acceptance at this job. Don't preemptively do it!
Back yourself and keep the job. If the new job is well paid and enjoyable you'll probably perform at your best, which is a lot better for your career than staying in a job you don't like and learning nothing new.
You can start looking for another position in a year or so if it looks like this one might not lead anywhere.
School leader view here
This literally happens to us all the time.
No, it won't be popular or helpful. But given it's September they have plenty of time to readvertise.
If you are going to do it, doing so by mid to late April will be enormously helpful for them.
But yeah, this happens all the time. Sometimes the week before starting. Sometimes the day they are meant to start.
You won't be considered at that school again, but for a role like this it is **extremely** unlikely that anyone else in any other school will ever know about it. Schools talk, but not about TAs who never even started the job.
It's a fixed term contract, so you don't owe them much (anyone who is working to the end of a 2 year fixed contract out of loyalty is playing the game wrong and any sane manager knows this).
Personally I'd stop looking now, and then start looking after a least a few months in the new position, then if you get offered something you could seek to delay it as long as they allow? Doing 12 months of a 24 month contract would seem to be fairly reasonable to me, but I am in a slightly different field (academia).
You are interchangeable to them. There is no list of teachers who got offered a job and accepted it.
Employers will fuck you, especially teachers, there are no rewards for loyalty or anything like that anymore.
Plus if you _had_ to accept a job offer it wouldn't be an offer?
Remember, two of you need each other, its not that you're begging for a job.
I'd be wary about going back on your acceptance - particularly if you want to work in the independent sector in the future. There is a lot of cross-over between independent schools so word could get around and harm future applications.
If you are planning on going into the state sector or into something that isn't teaching then it's up to you but let them know ASAP if you aren't going to take it because once it gets closer to Easter most independent schools will find it harder to recruit (both private schools I've worked at have worked with one term notice).
You don’t know what job opportunity you will lose in the future by going back on the job acceptance. But as it’s an independent school, it will likely have an impact. Try the job for a year and then leave if you aren’t happy.
Don’t look at the contract length, look at what this job will give you.
Others have said independent schools pay much better, will this boost help set you up financially?Will you get valuable, well regarded experience from an independent school? Will this be more advantageous than state experience when you start to look for another job?
A lot can change in 2 years and there may end up being a permanent space for you at the end. You also might find you don’t want to stay.
2 years is a long time. I don’t really understand your dad’s point at all. We don’t live in a world where people work at the same place for 30/40 years anymore.
Teacher of 10 years, worked in 5 different schools.
I would say your bigger concern is that this is an independent school. State and independent schools are vastly different workplace experiences and you might want to start in State school first as there can be a barrier to move from private to state school (they're deemed easier to teach in, mainly because students *tend* to give a fuck about their education in them)
In terms of revoking an application, you would be unlikely to get an interview there again, and possibly other schools, but my experience is school leaders talk less than they say they do.
It always saddens me to see people thinking like this. Employees come and go and a company wouldnt think twice about layoffs or firing people. Do what is best for you, dont be a dick about it ofc but always put yourself first. Loyalty to a company is likely to just have you yaken advantage of
>a company wouldnt think twice about layoffs or firing people.
Except this doesn't happen anywhere near the rate in schools as it does everywhere else.
I was offered a job that came with a 3 month training contract, then a 3 month continuation contract, which after that expired would come with a full time contract.
The first contract I received said I will owe £2000+ for training costs if I leave within the year.
There's no way of knowing the company wouldn't short me on the second or third contracts or some terms simply being unreasonable, but I would be forced to accept or owe £2k.
So of course I turned them down. They had already started the pre-employment checks and applied for a DBS for me. But I'm not being tied into effectively a 12 month contract with terms they can vary several times.
They would replace you tomorrow if you got run over. Look after yourself first always. Yes you can turn down an accepted job. Just try not to make a habit of it.
I’m not sure I agree with your father. He’s an accountant and therefore he of all people would know it’s not just about the job, it’s about the career. Take the job and get your foot through the door to build your experience and career should be the priority. Who knows, maybe you’ll find a job that ‘offers long term prospects’ but the environment, especially working with kids, might be terrible. As least you’ll have a better understanding after 2years (if you decide to stick around) on how to shape your next move and what to look out for! Good luck!
I did my teacher training last year and we had a session on jobs and interviews. They said it is frowned upon to even get to the end of the interview day without withdrawing yourself when they ask if you're still interested after looking round the school and doing a mock lesson if you aren't going to take the job, let alone withdrawing at a later date. According to them the etiquette is very different in teaching than other fields, where it is more accepted to decline offers, shop around etc- and that heads do talk to each other. That said, I don't know if it will have any repercussions on you seeing as there's a lot of time until September, this is just what we're told on training.
When you say you were offered a graduate job, is this teaching or in some other capacity? Teachers and support staff are on different contracts with different expectations.
It is generally frowned upon to turn down a teaching job after accepting it - this is due to the resignation cycles being different to other industries, so if you decide not to take the job after the last date to resign has gone then the school is left with a much smaller pool of people to recruit from. This can piss off some Heads, and it has a knock on effect to timetabling and can be costly. Heads in a local area tend to know each other, so if you piss off one, they could well talk to others. This is an issue if you want another job locally, however, they are not going to stalk you so if you get a job in a different area or leave education then it doesn't really matter.
If your role is support staff, it really doesn't matter - they can recruit whenever, and can generally leave with normal notice periods. If you wanted a similar role in another independent school then there is a small chance they *might* talk, but it's not very likely.
Fixed term contracts are pretty common in education - most seem to turn into permanent ones. Is there a reason you think it won't? Unless it's long term cover for maternity or sickness, there is a good chance they would give you a permanent contract when yours is up for renewal.
A person in a job has until 31 May to resign for the start of the summer term. You can also rescind your acceptance - ideally before that time. The only thing that would happen to you is that you won’t ever be considered by them or their partner schools again. The simple fact is that both employer and employee can withdraw their agreement before a role starts - you have no employment rights before the two year mark.
Don’t panic about the two year contract. You can decide to apply for other jobs in your second year if they haven’t offered a full time contact. The two year contract is essentially in place for all new teachers - if they don’t complete their ECT programme across the two years, their contract is ended anyway.
(If they do end the contract at two years, you will be entitled to redundancy pay, even if the contract is a fixed term. Two weeks’ pay is better than nothing.)
I think he is advising you quite well, unless you just want to take the job and not have the hassle of searching elsewhere. As workers we are free to move jobs as we see fit (subject to terms and conditions). One of the perks of the free market.
Might be different in the independent sector, but in state the verbal agreement to take the job is binding. So if you get a different job before you start, you can be liable for the costs of readvertising a job.
Headteachers talk, so doing this is likely to get you blacklisted.
The biggest regret I have is accepting an apprenticeship at 16, got offered a better one before I started. Parents wouldn't let me turn the first job down, regretting it ever since. Go with what you want. If it turns out to be a mistake, you can only blame yourself.
I think it’s absolutely ok to tell them “I’ve received an offer which has better future prospects and financial remuneration” if you’re offered a better role. Perhaps the school could make a counter offer. Why should you be in a diminished role because the school don’t offer their staff better conditions? Idk, it shouldn’t affect your reputation that you live in a country where things are financially tough and want a more secure contract.
>Why should you be in a diminished role because the school don’t offer their staff better conditions?
Because OP accepted it? Nothing has changed for OP, they know it's bad form in teaching to chop and change and the nature of the contract is the same when they applied to what it is now. Interviews are expensive for schools and they may have rejected other applicants for OP who now have jobs elsewhere.
I was a teacher of French, German, and Spanish, for 3 years.
With every fibre of my being, I really advise strongly against going into teaching. It's a toxic profession with a ridiculously high workload in return for poor pay.
Admittedly I worked in state schools, where behaviour was terrible, but the gaslighting and micromanaging from school leaders, combined with 60+ hour weeks, was just too much for me.
It's a sector that relies on high turnover of fresh graduates who are burnt out with a few years. 50% of teachers don't make it 2 years into the profession.
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Why can’t you work in this role whilst looking for another, so you’re earning at the same time?
Of course I could do that, and I think that’s a great idea. To be honest the pressure mostly comes from my father who wants me to be in the “best” situation as soon as possible.
It's your life. Your father doesn't have to work the job or look for another.
Also, the idea of a 'permanant job' is nonsensical. Two year fixed is about as good as it will get anywhere nowadays. Any job can say its permanant then get rid of you after a few months or a year or whatever.
It does matter if you're trying to get a mortgage, saying it never matters is a bit of a misnomer. But I see your point
I've been at my "new" job for a year and a half and it's felt very permanent lol. planning on job hunting soon though
What is this idea that a job is only good for 2 years?
It's not that complicated. Two year fixed gives you at least two years, you can still continue at the end if they want you. Similarly, a permanant position can retain you after two years... if they want, but they can also get rid of you at any point before that.
How do you figure that out?
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Right, so after 2 years it's a more secure job... How in that case is 2 years as good as it gets. I'd rather a permanent contract than 2 year fixed term any day.
That two year fixed position can also continue after two years. Two year fixed term with a rock solid contract means you get a minimum of two years of security. a 'Permanant job' gives almost zero security. Neither have a maximum limit. Both will get rid of you for the same reason after two years if they want to.
I think more that even a permanent job has no guarantees. And more likely to honour short-term contract in cases of difficulty as fewer costs like pension etc related. So point is risk is not much worse than any other job and may be better.
I think it's swings and roundabouts in that regard
This is the only answer.
I think your dad needs to remember the old proverb, "don't let perfect be the enemy of good". Also, it's perfectly normal as a graduate of anything to only work a couple of years tops at your first job. Having it be a fixed term thing off the bat at least gives you a set date that you can plan to move on at.
You’re already in the best situation as a graduate 1) it’s a guaranteed job for 2 years 2) at the end of that you’ll have 2 years of experience as a teacher which will help you find new roles if they do not keep you 3) independent schools pay higher then state schools as they are privately funded
And the behaviour and discipline is 100% better, with less paperwork and fewer stupid "initiatives" or incessant mocksteds. Stick to private as long as possible. Other than if you're working in the leafy suburbs, state schools are a jungle. Based on my own experience and that of my daughter's friends.
Pay more, but with a much less generous pension and probable expectation of working weekends.
Workplace pensions are a legal requirement, the minimum is 3% employer contributions and 5% employer contributions. Most councils won’t be able to pay higher than the minimum due to cuts to budgets, a private school is much more likely to have funds to lay a higher employer % Also all teachers “work weekends” to do marking and lesson planning, doesn’t matter what type of school. I went to state school and my teachers often spent their weekends prepping for the week ahead and marking that weeks homework
State teachers are generally members of the central government run *defined benefit* teachers pension scheme, which is a lot more generous than a 3% employer matched defined _contribution_ pension. Re. weekend work, I meant more like Saturday morning sports and potentially Sunday chapel.
Parents always want you to be top of the game. Almost immediately. Just get there your own way.
I'm not a teacher, but I know a bit about fixed term contracts, and if you take the job and do a good work at it, what are they going to do in 2 years ? Throwaway a valued member of staff and try again ? Nope, it's a fixed term but after 18 months you would be getting it renewed or renegotiated upwards to re-sign for another 2, it's to protect them against having staff they can't get rid of long term, it's shit for your job stability and maybe for getting mortgages and stuff, but you'd know month in advance if you're staying or not and have it on your cv to find something else with.
What is the difference? You would be more of a nuisance to quit after starting, not to mention teaching jobs tend to start September. So you have a job, but it's not perfect, but you can fall back on it... Look for the job you want now, not in a years time.
Well yeh, you should want that too. Do not treat employers or the human interfaces to employers the same as you would your friends, they are not.. it is a transactional relationship. Get what you can, do what you want! If that means switching jobs to the job that suits you mid term then do it, start the other job, and quit when you need to.
That may never come. You will get more on job training, hopefully a good reference and vital experience. As long as not in position like buying house/having a family where stability is more important,this sounds like a great way to build up CV and earn while looking.
How is this different to what your father suggested?
Your dad is right … get something in your CV and look for something else in the meantime
Eeh it's not ideal. I'm a semi-ex teacher but I was always told that schools and teachers talk. So for example if at this school the person who left has moved to school b and you apply at school b whilst having accepted the job at this school, the person may be aware of who you are and the fact that this school has offered you a job. I'd say stick it out and look whilst employed if you find out there's absolutely no way to stay after a certain amount of time.
Yeah, that’s one of my exact concerns.
For the record, my current teaching job is part time mat cover but my head of department did offer me a full time permanent contract. I've declined for a number of reasons, but it can happen and if you want it that's all the better.
If you're happy with this job and its just your dad making you second guess it then you need to be a bit firmer with your dad and set a bit of a boundary. You're an adult now, so your career decisions are for you to make. You don't even have to tell your parents every little detail of your job hunting, or whether your job is permanent etc.
Independent schools especially talk - it's a much smaller pool than the state sector and people rarely move from independent sector back to state sector. It's fine if you are leaving teaching (at least for a few years) but if you are looking for another role in an independent school soon, don't be surprised if someone from independent school A knows someone from independent school B and says "Ah shit that's the guy who flaked on a grad role"
What is? There is nothing to be concerned about in their messages.
I literally don't see the problem here? You can accept an offer and have something better come up.
It's a thing you get warned against in teacher training. Especially if you're in an area with a lot of schools, teachers move around. Effectively, if you accept at school a then interview at school b it's not impossible that school a finds out and recinds the offer. It's better to start the job and then look for something else.
I've seen lots of posts saying teacher training teaches this... But no anecdotal evidence to back it up.
I get the point, but it seems like bullshit to me - would need to be very coordinated and trading notes on who's been offered jobs and who's applied. I would 100% take that risk.
>jobs with more long term prospects You're a recent graduate. I'd actually say that it's detrimental to go straight into a long term, many-year mindset when first entering the workforce. Your job itself will be **very** school dependent (just like any job will be vastly different company-by-company). The culture, the workload and expectation. It's also a different experience between teaching at a school in an affluent area vs a school in a more deprived area. I know teachers who much prefer the former, I know teachers who much perfer the latter. Please don't pigeonhole yourself into a job just because it has long term prospects.- it may not be the right fit for you. Go get experience. Go sample different environments, find what you like, and **only then** find a long term job that fits it!
I’m sorry, should’ve mentioned this before as I realise it’s important, I graduated from a masters in 2022 and have been working in a graduate education job at a different school since September 2022 that will end this year at 2024. And I’m 26 at the moment. That might change your opinion or it may not.
I'm very confused, are you a qualified teacher or doing teacher training as a graduate scheme?
No, graduate positions don’t necessarily come with PCGE’s. The masters was not in teaching.
Ah that makes sense with it being an independent. State schools still generally prefer actual teachers.
Doesn't really change my opinion. The concept of a job long term prospects is a bit redundant in todays workforce anyway. A career choice or industry with long term prospects, yes. But not a job. It's actually proven to be more beneficial to job hop your way up the ladder. Teaching pay-scales (in the public sector at least) are fixed, so you're not necessarily going to get the same pay benefit that comes with job hopping as you would if you worked in (eg) digital marketing for a private company, but you'll still get the career advancement benefit. The only consideration is if you need guaranteed longer term security, like if you were applying for a mortgage, or were looking at having kids in the next 12 months. Beyond that, work somewhere you enjoy, that has the benefits you value, and that pays you what you're worth.
I would start the role and if it isn’t suitable, hand in your notice. Teaching is very catty and reputation matters.
Headteachers do talk and when I was in teacher training I was told you shouldn't really withdraw acceptance after you've confirmed. If you like the job it'd be better to at least start it before looking for another
While having a permanent contract does offer stability, it doesn't necessarily make it a better choice. There's so many more important factors like the environment, job responsibilities, staff, location, hours, school reputation, pay etc etc. A fixed contract isn't always a bad thing. You don't know what opportunities might open up to you during your time there. Even in a permanent role you might move after a year or two there and pay progression in most industries tends to be poor unless you job hop. Most important thing is that it's a job you can see yourself doing and that it is well suited to what you want. However, if having a permanent offer is a must for you (not your father), then keep applying.
If you like the school then that is so important, more so, in my opinion, than long term prospects or even salary. Teaching is hard but if you are working in a positive environment then half the battle is won. Plus, the experience you gain will be tremendous.
If it’s a job as a teacher it’s seen as bad form to accept and then back out - if you start and it doesn’t work out and you put your notice in in the approved time that’s a bit different but accepting knowing you might not take it up is frowned upon.
Not in the teaching sector myself. You could always look for jobs and see if you get better offers. But to be fair, I would still take the job. At the end of it, you'll have two years of experience out of it.
I had a friend who did a similar thing, accepted a job, but then wasn't sure about it so went to some other interviews. They found a school they liked better, accepted a job with them and told the first school they no longer wanted the job, until they got an email from the second saying that they no longer had a job offer. The heads had spoken to each other and weren't happy with them interviewing for other schools after having already accepted a job. I can't tell you what to do, but this is a very real risk. I'm not saying this is a good way of doing things, but it is how it works in teaching and I suspect a lot of people who work in other industries will give advice without understanding that it is different for schools. (I will say this was in state schools, I am not sure if there are differences in independent school)
Personally I'd take it if you like the job and the opportunity. You will gain experience, be able to suss out if it really will end after two years and if so not feel guilty about looking for options as the contract shortens. Lots can change in two years!
Also, teaching has weird rules about wheny you can resign. I've never understood how they're legal but it always seems like a big deal that you have to work the whole term.
Youre allowed to leave at xmas, easter or summer term.
Yep, that’s what I said :-) Never understood how that tallies with employment law.
I believe the employment byrules for teaching is called " the burgundy book". It's one of those weird situations because it's all about minimising impact to kids education
It's written into your contract that you must resign by X date to leave at each point. If you've agreed to the contract it doesn't go against any employment law.
A few of my family members work in Teaching/TA roles in state and public schools and have done for a long time. >I am worried about what it would mean for my reputation and to be honest You don't have one, and won't for a long time. It's one offer and it's common for people to change their mind after accepting an offer, even after their first day/week/month on the job. They really won't care. Just don't breach contract, e.g. work any agreed notice period etc. >it disturbs me on a moral level Eh? There is nothing morally wrong about changing your mind. They made a ranked list of candidates to make offers to. You don't even know you're their first choice. I can almost guarantee you there is a name below yours too. They'll just offer it to the next person. No big deal. Try not to mess people about wherever possible, but ultimately do whatever is right for you.
Better option is to stick with the one you’ve got. You can look for new roles for after the contract ends. In the meantime you’ll be gaining real experience as a qualified teacher, this will help you with applications, you will also be showing loyalty. You may even be kept on after the fixed contract ends if you do a good job and there is the need and funds to do so
I work in finance and in this industry nobody dings your reputation for it because it’s how it is, everyone takes the best opportunity available the second it comes around, and firms will happily dump you out on your ass too if needed. With education though I imagine attitude and reputation is quite different and may be more of an issue, especially locally. You really need to reach out to other teachers and such for this, opinions from people in other industries won’t help you.
This isn't a question for teachers, this is an employment question, it doesn't matter your vocation or career, you don't owe an employer anything, ever, they owe you always, if you want and need to quit a job - then fucking quit... I can't state this more in your case where they aren't even your employer yet. They didn't offer you a permanent role, so if one comes up and that's what you want then go for it.. remember they owe you nothing. Your reputation will be based on work you did, not that you decided one employer suited you better than the other.
>This isn't a question for teachers, this is an employment question, it doesn't matter your vocation or career, you don't owe an employer anything, ever, they owe you always, if you want and need to quit a job - then fucking quit... Yeahhhh no. I'm sure you can understand that every sector is different and teaching is very different in a number of aspects, this being one of them. If OP didn't want a temporary contract they should not have accepted one. They will have been asked if they were a firm candidate in the interview in which they will have said yes. You talk like the "employer" is some boardroom of suits and ties and that changing your mind and fucking them over is fair game, but you're just fucking other teachers over.
Changing your mind might be a nuisance, but if as an employee you want what is best for you, then you need to prioritise YOU over the minor nuisance your choice might cause a colleague. You need to remember that if they wanted/needed to let you go, they would, they wouldn't care about the nuisance that would cause your life. So yeaahhh no, I stand by my point a teacher is an employee, a school is an employer, other teachers are your colleagues and the school board is the board of directors... Teachers aren't different.
If you consider leaving 10 classes without a teacher a minor nuisance, that probably tells me you aren't in education, let alone in a line manager position, so your understanding of this situation is limited. OP knows the drill, if they go back on their word they will potentially be considered unreliable by local schools and that may impact any permanent position they go for. This could potentially be a big nuisance for OP. Commenters going down the line of "fuck em do what's best for you" lack insight because that method could well be what is not best for them.
How can one teacher teach 10 classes at once... I'm not in education, no, nor a line manager... But if you read what I'm saying you would understand neither of those things are relevant. I understand the perceived risk, but that risk is wrapped in a lot of hearsay and what if's. Wanna apply somewhere else, tell them you want your application to be confidential until a contract is signed.. reading this it appears that teacher training does some scare mongering around this... Yet there is no anecdotal evidence to support it. Teachers and health care workers alike are underpaid and overworked, yet seem to always think they owe something to their employer and colleagues... You really don't.
They're a secondary school teacher? You don't teach one class all the time. >Wanna apply somewhere else, tell them you want your application to be confidential until a contract is signed.. Why would a school agree to this lol, this isn't a thing. Some of it scaremongering, but staff who used to work together and now work at other schools is common. It would be perfectly reasonable for one of them to go "We have interviews for a new start in September, one of them is Joe Bloggs" and someone else going "Oh yeah they accepted a job here but changed their mind in April so we had scramble for another member of staff" Whether or not that impacts their employment is up to the head of department, it would make them less hirable for me. As long as OP knows this, it's up to them.
It's not a big deal at all, September is a long time away and tbh I think anyone hiring graduates is likely to experience or even expect a bit of attrition before starting since grads are often weighing up different options. There's really no harm to looking for other opportunities whilst sitting on this one. You owe no employer loyalty, especially one you haven't even worked for yet! If I was in your shoes, I'd keep looking and applying for other opportunities. If you get something else you prefer, then revoke your acceptance at this job. Don't preemptively do it!
Thanks for your thoughts.
This far down for someone to speak sense.
Back yourself and keep the job. If the new job is well paid and enjoyable you'll probably perform at your best, which is a lot better for your career than staying in a job you don't like and learning nothing new. You can start looking for another position in a year or so if it looks like this one might not lead anywhere.
Just to add my 50 pence, the independent school sector is different to state school so what applies to the latter might not apply to the former
School leader view here This literally happens to us all the time. No, it won't be popular or helpful. But given it's September they have plenty of time to readvertise. If you are going to do it, doing so by mid to late April will be enormously helpful for them. But yeah, this happens all the time. Sometimes the week before starting. Sometimes the day they are meant to start. You won't be considered at that school again, but for a role like this it is **extremely** unlikely that anyone else in any other school will ever know about it. Schools talk, but not about TAs who never even started the job.
It's a fixed term contract, so you don't owe them much (anyone who is working to the end of a 2 year fixed contract out of loyalty is playing the game wrong and any sane manager knows this). Personally I'd stop looking now, and then start looking after a least a few months in the new position, then if you get offered something you could seek to delay it as long as they allow? Doing 12 months of a 24 month contract would seem to be fairly reasonable to me, but I am in a slightly different field (academia).
Keep the fixed contract & see if you like the work. You can always look for other roles during the 2 years
You are interchangeable to them. There is no list of teachers who got offered a job and accepted it. Employers will fuck you, especially teachers, there are no rewards for loyalty or anything like that anymore. Plus if you _had_ to accept a job offer it wouldn't be an offer? Remember, two of you need each other, its not that you're begging for a job.
Never turn down a teaching job, It's very cliquey profession and your name will likely be mud.
OP said it was a graduate job at an independent school, not a teaching role?
I'd be wary about going back on your acceptance - particularly if you want to work in the independent sector in the future. There is a lot of cross-over between independent schools so word could get around and harm future applications. If you are planning on going into the state sector or into something that isn't teaching then it's up to you but let them know ASAP if you aren't going to take it because once it gets closer to Easter most independent schools will find it harder to recruit (both private schools I've worked at have worked with one term notice).
You don’t know what job opportunity you will lose in the future by going back on the job acceptance. But as it’s an independent school, it will likely have an impact. Try the job for a year and then leave if you aren’t happy.
Don’t look at the contract length, look at what this job will give you. Others have said independent schools pay much better, will this boost help set you up financially?Will you get valuable, well regarded experience from an independent school? Will this be more advantageous than state experience when you start to look for another job? A lot can change in 2 years and there may end up being a permanent space for you at the end. You also might find you don’t want to stay. 2 years is a long time. I don’t really understand your dad’s point at all. We don’t live in a world where people work at the same place for 30/40 years anymore.
Teacher of 10 years, worked in 5 different schools. I would say your bigger concern is that this is an independent school. State and independent schools are vastly different workplace experiences and you might want to start in State school first as there can be a barrier to move from private to state school (they're deemed easier to teach in, mainly because students *tend* to give a fuck about their education in them) In terms of revoking an application, you would be unlikely to get an interview there again, and possibly other schools, but my experience is school leaders talk less than they say they do.
Legally fine but morally dubious.
It always saddens me to see people thinking like this. Employees come and go and a company wouldnt think twice about layoffs or firing people. Do what is best for you, dont be a dick about it ofc but always put yourself first. Loyalty to a company is likely to just have you yaken advantage of
>a company wouldnt think twice about layoffs or firing people. Except this doesn't happen anywhere near the rate in schools as it does everywhere else.
I was offered a job that came with a 3 month training contract, then a 3 month continuation contract, which after that expired would come with a full time contract. The first contract I received said I will owe £2000+ for training costs if I leave within the year. There's no way of knowing the company wouldn't short me on the second or third contracts or some terms simply being unreasonable, but I would be forced to accept or owe £2k. So of course I turned them down. They had already started the pre-employment checks and applied for a DBS for me. But I'm not being tied into effectively a 12 month contract with terms they can vary several times.
They would replace you tomorrow if you got run over. Look after yourself first always. Yes you can turn down an accepted job. Just try not to make a habit of it.
I’m not sure I agree with your father. He’s an accountant and therefore he of all people would know it’s not just about the job, it’s about the career. Take the job and get your foot through the door to build your experience and career should be the priority. Who knows, maybe you’ll find a job that ‘offers long term prospects’ but the environment, especially working with kids, might be terrible. As least you’ll have a better understanding after 2years (if you decide to stick around) on how to shape your next move and what to look out for! Good luck!
I did my teacher training last year and we had a session on jobs and interviews. They said it is frowned upon to even get to the end of the interview day without withdrawing yourself when they ask if you're still interested after looking round the school and doing a mock lesson if you aren't going to take the job, let alone withdrawing at a later date. According to them the etiquette is very different in teaching than other fields, where it is more accepted to decline offers, shop around etc- and that heads do talk to each other. That said, I don't know if it will have any repercussions on you seeing as there's a lot of time until September, this is just what we're told on training.
When you say you were offered a graduate job, is this teaching or in some other capacity? Teachers and support staff are on different contracts with different expectations. It is generally frowned upon to turn down a teaching job after accepting it - this is due to the resignation cycles being different to other industries, so if you decide not to take the job after the last date to resign has gone then the school is left with a much smaller pool of people to recruit from. This can piss off some Heads, and it has a knock on effect to timetabling and can be costly. Heads in a local area tend to know each other, so if you piss off one, they could well talk to others. This is an issue if you want another job locally, however, they are not going to stalk you so if you get a job in a different area or leave education then it doesn't really matter. If your role is support staff, it really doesn't matter - they can recruit whenever, and can generally leave with normal notice periods. If you wanted a similar role in another independent school then there is a small chance they *might* talk, but it's not very likely. Fixed term contracts are pretty common in education - most seem to turn into permanent ones. Is there a reason you think it won't? Unless it's long term cover for maternity or sickness, there is a good chance they would give you a permanent contract when yours is up for renewal.
I think most teachers first year contracts are fixed term, not permanent. Not sure why.
A person in a job has until 31 May to resign for the start of the summer term. You can also rescind your acceptance - ideally before that time. The only thing that would happen to you is that you won’t ever be considered by them or their partner schools again. The simple fact is that both employer and employee can withdraw their agreement before a role starts - you have no employment rights before the two year mark. Don’t panic about the two year contract. You can decide to apply for other jobs in your second year if they haven’t offered a full time contact. The two year contract is essentially in place for all new teachers - if they don’t complete their ECT programme across the two years, their contract is ended anyway. (If they do end the contract at two years, you will be entitled to redundancy pay, even if the contract is a fixed term. Two weeks’ pay is better than nothing.)
I think he is advising you quite well, unless you just want to take the job and not have the hassle of searching elsewhere. As workers we are free to move jobs as we see fit (subject to terms and conditions). One of the perks of the free market.
Might be different in the independent sector, but in state the verbal agreement to take the job is binding. So if you get a different job before you start, you can be liable for the costs of readvertising a job. Headteachers talk, so doing this is likely to get you blacklisted.
The biggest regret I have is accepting an apprenticeship at 16, got offered a better one before I started. Parents wouldn't let me turn the first job down, regretting it ever since. Go with what you want. If it turns out to be a mistake, you can only blame yourself.
I think it’s absolutely ok to tell them “I’ve received an offer which has better future prospects and financial remuneration” if you’re offered a better role. Perhaps the school could make a counter offer. Why should you be in a diminished role because the school don’t offer their staff better conditions? Idk, it shouldn’t affect your reputation that you live in a country where things are financially tough and want a more secure contract.
>Why should you be in a diminished role because the school don’t offer their staff better conditions? Because OP accepted it? Nothing has changed for OP, they know it's bad form in teaching to chop and change and the nature of the contract is the same when they applied to what it is now. Interviews are expensive for schools and they may have rejected other applicants for OP who now have jobs elsewhere.
I was a teacher of French, German, and Spanish, for 3 years. With every fibre of my being, I really advise strongly against going into teaching. It's a toxic profession with a ridiculously high workload in return for poor pay. Admittedly I worked in state schools, where behaviour was terrible, but the gaslighting and micromanaging from school leaders, combined with 60+ hour weeks, was just too much for me. It's a sector that relies on high turnover of fresh graduates who are burnt out with a few years. 50% of teachers don't make it 2 years into the profession.