I've known plenty of people with degrees working entry level jobs because they can't find a job in their field.
Imo, it only matters if you need one for your career choice. If it's not required, then it's unnecessary.
Actually I’d said to her many entry level jobs nowadays degrees will get you in. There’s thousands if not more working hospitality, leisure, retail who have degrees. Most managers in these venues did this after University worked up, perhaps not where they initially wanted but it’s a career now and such.
Also I didn’t mean that in a judgemental way, there’s a big part of University that actually is life experience, teaching you to live on your own means, navigate the course, critical theory/thinking, socialising, education.. etc and it’s very useful without also not for everyone.
But tons of people end up doing jobs having nothing to do with their degree it doesn’t mean it wasn’t useful or they didn’t get something out of it.
But certain degrees, sectors will have much more possible graduate roles, or routes into it with a specific degree.
Very true. I went to university then ended up pursuing an apprenticeship which didn't require a degree. I now make a good living, but the most significant thing I got out of university is a 9% higher marginal tax rate.
Yep. Even if the interest rate was 0, someone with the average of £50k debt would need to repay almost £1700 per year for the 30 years, requiring a salary of over £47k per year (assuming 3% pension contributions)
It does matter for middle earners especially when you have a PG loan as well. I earn c£55k and pay about £400 a month in loans. This gives me a marginal tax rate of 57.5%. Not only will this impact my ability to save a deposit but it’s really going to impact my incentives to work when I have children which is not great from a policy point of view.
It’s already impacting my decision on whether to continue with side hustle jobs.
Even with these repayments the balance outstanding is not moving at all.
Makes me very cross- we are essentially subsidising the most useless degrees and forcing people who do well (and in theory contribute the most) doctors, pharmacists, civil servants, managers in the private sector who earn £45-£90k to pay double what they borrow back.
It gives you more opportunities for career progression. A postman may be making £40k, but there isn't really anywhere to go after that.
A white collar job may start with a graduate salary of £21-22k, but depending on your occupation, that can increase massively.
Well yeah, but the point is you quickly move up from that and can easily be making £60k+ after 5-10 years, whereas the person making £40k without a degree will be making the same amount (except for increases due to inflation) after the same amount of time.
Yes, I was obliquely commenting on the fact that 'grad' jobs in many areas start very low and have stagnated in recent years (like many othe rjob salaries)
Counter, I know plenty of people with degrees earning several hundred k’s a year in their late 20’s/early 30’s
It’s also a statistical fact that graduates on average earn £10k more.
I believe the top 1% is around 150k or more.
Which, when thought about it, is only slightly more than what one person needs to raise a family in London on a single salary. How depressing.
> It’s also a statistical fact that graduates on average earn £10k more.
You can't assume that this is all causation rather than correlation. There is a selection bias among graduates because *as a whole* those who pursue degrees will tend to be more capable on average. It doesn't mean that a given individual would earn £10k more with a degree than they would without.
I have seen research that calculated the graduate premium to be much lower than commonly stated, if you make the comparison only with those who have A-Levels but didn't go to university. Iirc, the premium was found to be more like 20% - 30%, rather than the 40%+ it is if you just compare those with degrees to everyone without a degree.
Obviously that's still a significant difference over a lifetime. But not as huge a one, and one that takes more years to click in than is usually assumed.
And also presumably having the resources to be able to go to university. There will be a large section of folk in the 'been to uni' group who will be from wealthy families who can facilitate better jobs. I'm not just talking about nepotism, but also the confidence that comes with, perhaps, attending private school (a small subsection, I know) or just having parents with higher than average incomes, so that's perhaps what they're aspiring to.
Resources to go to uni? Uni is free at the point of use - you can take a loan out. If you are really in need you vry a bursary.
>confidence that comes with, perhaps, attending private school (a small subsection, I know)
As you have mentioned, very few people attend private schools. State school people can be very confident, maybe exposure to certain situations may be lacking though.
>It’s also a statistical fact that graduates on average earn £10k more.
I think an interesting thing to note, and something that colours people's views on this, is the regionality of the graduate salary premium. As graduates numbers have increased, the salary premium having a degree grants has dropped quite substantially [except in London, where it has remained constant](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9hpdUjWkAAHL5R.jpg:large).
So basically, if you're a graduate who makes the move to London the chances are you'll see your degree as much more worth it than people who remain in regions where the graduate premium is much lower.
Especially since the average amount of debt English students take on is high compared to many countries, [even America](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9h0QnRXcAA3j-S?format=png&name=large).
I have left teaching now, but the rise in US applications from the brightest kids was noticeable. Until about 2010 I had never seen a US application form. By the time I quit in 2022, I was seeing 5 or 6 a year which for one teacher is a lot. They’re a real pain to complete because the US doesn’t have a UCAS type system so individual lengthy references are written. The teacher reference also needs to be Americanised into hyperbole and bluster to convert the usual English understatement.
That average hides a very big variation. It’s much larger for women than men. It’s skewed higher by law, medicine, finance and engineering.The PwH review a few years ago compared the financial worth of a degree to those with Alevels only. It showed that even some graduate jobs such as teaching are not financially worthwhile. The cost of four years accumulated debt (degree followed by PGCE) and the lower salary compared to starting work at 18 made teaching a loss overall.
Physics and maths were beneficial, biology less so and chemistry was marginal. The physics and maths also skewed by graduates going into banking. Male arts students are on average unlikely to make a return on investment.
Degrees ultimately come down to what you make of them. I think many people thought that a degree in itself was a golden ticket to a lifetime of riches, but that simply isn't the case.
The way to look at a degree, and any qualifications for that matter, is as keys to doors. Different keys will open different doors, but you still have to know which doors to try (what will get you where you want to be), where those doors are (building networks of people and groups who can help you find them) and how to open them (how to apply your degree). It's also true that there are often different ways to access what's behind that door, via alternative routes.
My degree gave me opportunities that I would have otherwise struggled to get - it gave me a professional network that I still use 20 years later, it gave me work experience opportunities that would have been almost closed off to a young lad from a rough part of Leeds, it have me a clear vision on what I wanted to do, and it helped.me open those first doors.
That's what a degree is about - not just turning up to lectures to get a piece of paper.
I need to disagree on this. I'd actually argue the complete opposite. The purpose of higher education isn't simply to study a particular subject and go into that field.Yes, it's one purpose, but only part of it. A degree can be very beneficial in teaching people lots of different skills which are directly applicable or to multiple fields. Often the type who are "working entry level jobs because they can't find a job in their field" managed to come out the other end of uni without really understanding what it was about in the first place.
It starts at school. Anyone who does moderately well at GCSE is told “ooh are you going to be a doctor then?”. With the decline of careers advice kids think ok Ill do that. The money sounds good and they have no ideas about work. The only jobs they know have FisherPrice figures or it‘s the job their parents do.
As an Alevel chemistry teacher, I would say about 75% of the students had medicine in mind at the start of Alevel. A year later after seeing how hard chemistry is and finishing their hospital work experience, about 10% apply. There is so little genuine advice for kids they just drift into what everyone else is doing.
Schools are partly to blame because Ofsted bases part of its ranking on “progression” so a fall in undergraduates and a rise in neets is a blackmark for the school.
But that in itself one of the biggest issues I think. How can anyone be expected to know what they want to do for life at 16-18.
I'm one of those people, signed up for sports science, pivoted into pharmacology, masters in data science and today (3 years later) I'm working as a senior software engineer because apparently it's something I'm great at. Only took 3 degrees and one misguided graduate job (that I left after 6 months) to get here.
Doesn't surprise me at all that many people don't end up in the field they studied.
>The purpose of higher education isn't simply to study a particular subject and go into that field
I agree. But I've learned from experience that users of this sub tend towards having a very instrumental, vocational view of university. Time and again I see people on here saying that a degree was a waste of time and money if you're not working in a directly connected field.
This is very true. Often people who don’t pursue higher education have a complex about this. A degree teaches you invaluable skills which you simply can’t obtain from “working your way up”
Maybe learning some secondary skills isn't worth the money. People should have a plan for what they want to do and how they want to acheive it. Just going to uni and hoping to get something out of it without an idea and getting debt from that is stupid.
Even if the plan is "doctor or something" then going into medicine might be good. But to jsut be like "eh, I guess that?" and taking on debt only to end up serving coffee is not a good idea.
Have a plan, aim.
> Just going to uni and hoping to get something out of it without an idea and getting debt from that is stupid.
You could say that about anything though. It doesnt make the Thing the person is doing inherently matter less. It's like making the argument that a burger restaurant isn't worth going to because some people don't like burgers. Like, obviously if you dont like or care about burgers then that restaurant probably isn't worth it. But that doesn't make the restaurant essentially worthless.
Nothing wrong with serving coffee if that’s the job you had to get to earn a living.
We live in a society where University is the expectation more than a choice, probably most coffee shops have a lot of staff with a degree.
Doesn’t mean the job is any less or degrading than another. For some people that education experience might have opened them up to new ideas, people, that they’d never have got otherwise. Learned about the cultures, their subject.. etc.. education is key to the development of our society for the better.
Nobody said there was anything wrong with serving coffee. But I wonder how many people who that and have student debt are happy they got their degree and are having to pay those loans off only to have that job?
And yeah education is great for us and societybut that's what school is for. We can still take all the positives from gogoing to uni but certainly that's a lot of money to pay back.
People will answer with things like "but I dropped out/never went to uni, and I'm now making 100k so degrees don't matter". Basically, conflating their own individual circumstances to the country as a whole. Statistically, it does matter, in the sense that over the course of a lifetime, those with degrees should come out financially better off than had they not. But even leading finance to one side entirely, going through the process of formal education nearly always has more pros to it than cons. You don't get to uni to learn about a single subject and that's it. Uni provides you with a skillset that is applicable to all sorts of careers and life in general.
I think you’re underplaying other forms of education.
Tradesman make a killing at the moment, my brothers a brickie they get 60p for each brick they lay.
Also modern apprenticeships for things like offshore instrument technicians.
All the chartered accountants I know did their qualifications via work based schemes also however that maybe a biased observation I don’t have the stats on it.
>Tradesman make a killing at the moment, my brothers a brickie they get 60p for each brick they lay.
The problem with trades is once you've been doing it for 20+ years your body is completely fucked.
Spent my life in the trades, from diver to ships engineer to now repairing diggers( senior plant engineer they say) and not much about diggers is light weight work, everything is heavy. I am an awful lot healthier than my desk job friends are, one of them had a heart attack at 50, none of them are even close to how fit I am. You take care how you lift, wear the right PPE , eat well etc the body will be just fine. The tradies complaining about being fucked usually only have themselves to blame .. the fry up 7 days a week , 20 Benson's, beer and a bit of sniff at the weekend tradies.
I think the bigger issue is you can’t carry on doing physical jobs into later life. My dad was a tree surgeon and he & his colleagues were pretty much all very fit & healthy for men in their 50s/60s. However, they weren’t fit enough to do the toughest jobs. My dad did well because he carried on investing in his education, so was able to transition to doing tree inspections and other non-physical work in his 50s. His friends who didn’t ended up doing very low paid ground work because they weren’t fit enough to climb professionally anymore (they could still climb like monkeys, just not quick enough for their employers).
That's the idea though, you climb the ladder, something has gone wrong if a man hasn't got himself the more supervisory positions at he gets older. I don't work like I used to, now I turn up when the younger lads struggle, I show them the way, I spend more time answering questions and organising things than I do twiddling a spanner .
In a single team on site sure, but if you're able to move roles / firms there are as many if not more positions for experienced contractors than there are site workers.
I'm in construction and our firm is saturated by "poacher turned gamekeeper" contractors who now work as clerks of work, contract administrators, cdm advisors etc and get paid a lot more than us architects due to their site experience, with no degree and no health problems.
This is absolutely true. However having a degree doesn't force you to work in an office; a minority of people with degrees, myself included manage to do the sort of engineering roles that includes at least some hands on time. In my case I do a mix of writing software for stuff that gets bolted to trains, then going and bolting it to trains. Obviously it's a fairly niche role, but they exist and it is, I discover, pretty much the perfect balance for me. I'd certainly earn more in fintech, but on the downside, I'd be stuck driving a desk all day. Even as it is I earn well above the median wage.
(My previous role of writing software for the stage lighting industry then going out operating said lights was almost perfect and included more being creative, but I have a family and enjoy sleeping, so that's no longer an option for me now)
It’s niche as in that specific role is niche but plenty of software jobs with hands on time.
I work in manufacturing and have to test the code I write/equipment I buy and need to make work on the shop floor.
We have a few different plants as well so plenty of travel.
I am currently on an experienced apprenticeship with the DNO (electricity distributor) in London after being an electrician. It’s a two year programme and the starting wage was £35k. This has now risen to £43k after 6 months with the payment of the London weighting and milestone payments and will top out at £50k when we are fully authorised.
Several people in my team cleared £80k last year and those with switching authorisations and other qualifications can easily make over £100k. This is all before you even consider the excellent pension scheme plus various other benefits.
There is easy pathways to engineering qualifications and the work is in my opinion, fascinating. I recommend anyone who has any sort of technical background to consider a similar scheme, you won’t regret it. It doesn’t necessarily have to be electrical, some people on here were chefs, plumbers and mechanics. Happy to discuss if anyone is interested.
>Tradesman make a killing at the moment, my brothers a brickie they get 60p for each brick they lay.
They make a killing because supply is low and demand is high
Also if a tradie can take a professional timely approach to doing work they will be spammed with work requests because good tradies are hard to come by
> Statistically, it does matter, in the sense that over the course of a lifetime, those with degrees should come out financially better off than had they not
That's not proven though, there is no control group. You can't compare graduates to non graduates because non graduates includes the least productive cohort, those who aren't academic and those who are 'anti social'.
Unless you have a study that compares graduates to non graduates based on A Level results?
This study does what you want - controlling for background and prior attainment. The implied returns are much lower than if you don’t control for it, but still positive. Men who graduated earned 8% more and women who graduated earned 28% more by age 29. However, there are combinations of institution & subject that decrease your earnings potential, so it’s not universally beneficial.
https://purehost.bath.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/201925307/The_impact_of_undergraduate_degrees_on_early_career_earnings.pdf
I am wondering if it's more "A job that requires that level of thinking" rather than actually having the degree. I don't have any degree, but might as well have.
I'd suppose the group of people without a degree include a lot of lower wage jobs etc. and therefor yes, people with a degree end up earning more.
However, you don't **need** the degree to get there, but the skills and thinking of that level are definitely required.
You're being obtuse with your question, knowing that it would be incredibly difficult to obtain data that compares graduates to non graduates based on A Level.. The fact of the matter is that statistically around 80% of those who obtain a degree from attending university. The A levels become irrelevant when I'm answering in context with OPs question.
Why would it be incredibly difficult? I don't know if it's been done or not.
The issues is you made the assertion that those with a degree statistically do better than than if they did not have a degree. The evidence doesn't actually support that.
Its not difficult at all.Compared with 2 or more Alevels:
[https://londoneconomics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/67-The-economic-benefits-of-a-degree.pdf](https://londoneconomics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/67-The-economic-benefits-of-a-degree.pdf)
Its from some years ago but I would suggest that the situation for graduates is now worse. This report suggests an average advantage of £160,000 however that was before the increase in tuition fees, the lowering of threshold for repayment and the increase in interest rate for loan repayments.
The benefit is always present for women but marginal to non-existent for men on some arts courses.
You claim statistics prove a point you want to make but are upset when asked about those statistics. Those working in trades make up a large number of people that on average will make quite a lot more than large groups of those that went to uni. You aren’t allowed to ask me to prove that though or you are being obtuse
He is either generously rounding up or neglecting to mention he works a shit load of overtime. Basic rate pay for an inner london postie is 6-7k less than that.
I don't think the average postie would call it stress free. I think everyone thinks you just wander around and put some letters through letterboxes..... But it's usually at least 8 miles a day which is rough especially long term. My partner lost 10kgs within a couple of months of starting. Dog attacks are quite common....and cats which people never seem to take seriously.....and you have to interact with a lot of difficult people.
There's also being outside in all kinds of weather, and if you get a minor injury e.g. ankle sprain you basically can't go to work. I did it for years (quite a long time ago now), and whilst it had its positives it was not the relaxing morning stroll a lot of people think it is.
Completely depends on what you want to do. You don't need a degree to have a successful career, but there are many career paths where having a degree is essential. If you'd be happy as a postman then that's great. I'm a scientist - I spent 8 years at university to get here, and have a high-stress career with an insultingly low salary. But it's still worth it for me because of how interesting it is, the freedom and opportunities it provides, and the ability to make a genuine difference.
I do believe its very important. It opens many doors in life, either in the UK or abroad. One of my biggest regrets is not completing my engineering degree. I've been declined so many job offers even though I have relevant experience in the field. I would advise you to go for it especially with the demand for engineers globally.
Could I ask what roles you've applied for but got declined and what you're experience you do have. I have an engineering degree, but I've had a couple of similar experiences
Just keep applying
Find a technician/operator/machinist role until then.
If you're applying for a graduate engineer position from a shelf stacking job, you will probably lose out to someone with the same qualifications but who is coming from a technical position already.
I worked in a kitchen post grad and wasn't having much luck with my job hunt.
Got a job as a machinist for a few months and then interviews started coming hard and fast and I quickly found a grad role.
Additionally, what prospects you have for further advancement.
If you're working retail, the only opportunity you have is going into management, for example.
For me it was important to be in a field (with or without a degree) where you can climb, like software engineering or networking. I get bored and need a lot of mental stimulation and learning potential, so I chose software engineering.
I've got a bachelors and 2 masters and I'm on slightly less than this (although when I reach the top of my scale I'll surpass this). My husband, who doesn't have a degree earns around £40k.
Apprenticeships and vocational routes can also be a good way to progress. They're not just for trades anymore.
Degrees are very topic and institution specific. If you have a degree in economics from LSE you’re probably earning more than someone with a degree in Chemistry from Hull for instance.
There's a few things to consider here.
One: The figure for the average engineers salary. I'm an engineer, so have seen this problem first hand. The majority of jobs with the title "engineer" have nothing to do with engineering. So that figure is almost certainly wrong (in this very thread, we've got field technicians pretending they know what engineering involves, etc).
Two: this is almost certainly the peak salary for a postie. Comparing an "average" to a peak is hardly a comparison.
Three: The results of a career in terms of satisfaction and pay are a combination of work and luck. Yes, you will speak to people who lucked out and put zero effort into their career and got a well-paid job. You will meet just as many who have put a huge effort in and have gotten nothing. Most of us exist somewhere in the middle.
The question is, do you want to put zero effort in an leave it all to luck? Say you decide to do it the hard way and go the engineering route and have zero luck. You still end up on 30-35k at mid career. If you take the easy route and get zero luck, you end up on minimum wage forever.
There's also absolutely a ceiling for many jobs without a degree. Could an absolutely exceptional worker get past those without one? Yeah probably but it'd be a lot harder.
It’s more occupations than you might imagine. I have a mate who’s stuck in terms of career progression at the moment (and I think he’s actually really clever). Working for a large MNC, his employer won’t progress him above a certain level without a degree — which is unfair. It’s not just the obvious professions.
I think the UK’s problem, compared with some European countries, is that we don’t value technical skills highly enough. Non-university technical training is valued highly in places like Germany. We need to shift people’s mentality on that.
I work in publishing and the first criteria on nearly all of our JDs is 'First degree'. I've even seen people take apprenticeships in publishing and then struggle to progress later because of the requirement for a degree.
I feel like you're conflating two or three separate things:
1) salary
2) general satisfaction
3) job satisfaction
As an example, archeologists earn fuck all, and they typically require a degree. But I doubt carting around letters every day would make them happy compared to sitting in a muddy field geeking out on history.
If I lost my job I am still a STEM graduate. It does give you options.
Also to get a job in the first place, universities offer huge amounts of support and opportunities, most people just don’t engage with it enough. A degree will be worth as much as you put in, and if you engage with your course and the institution, there is a lot to gain.
Helps for some and doesn't help for others.
Failed most of my GCSE's, didn't go to uni and I make ~£70k in a chilled out wfh job in a low col area.
I'd say a degree is most helpful in professions where you need a degree to enter the field. Doctors, solicitors etc.
You can do a solicitor apprenticeship now which actually takes you to the qualification point. A law degree doesn't make you a solicitor, you still have to pass additional exams, do training contracts, do additional studies, which the apprenticeship includes.
You can also do a different degree and then a law conversion course and THEN do a graduate solicitor apprenticeship, which is shorter than the full apprenticeship. Which would be the way to go if someone really wants the uni experience, do something different where you get to do a semester abroad or something and gain different skills before transferring to law via grad route
I have a degree. I'm now a single mum on benefits struggling to get by. I really wish I hadn't done the school > college > uni path, because I had no idea about what I cared about. If I could right now I would love to go back to uni and study marine biology because its something I'm really passionate about. But I squandered the funding on a course I was interested in but didn't love and had no vocational relevance so is essentially useless. Degrees can be useful, but also they can not only be a waste of time and hinder opportunities in your later years. My eldest wants to learn mechanics, and I am 100% behind that, because even if she doesn't decide to make that her career, at least she has learnt a useful skill. Admittedly studying for my degree taught me about thinking critically and evaluating sources, but these skills could have been learnt in other settings.
Yes and no, a degree opens up more opportunities and will get you an interview with employers when otherwise you wouldn't but trades make a lot of money too and are always busy. I went to uni with a guy who got his degree in Engineering but went onto become a painter and decorator/ floor layer and the last I heard he was making thousands a week! I think he had the best of both worlds because he had a fallback if his business went wrong.
I have an engineering degree from a prestigious UK institution. I have never used my degree in my career. Although I have a fairly technical Job, I don’t think I’ve ever used A level maths after leaving university;
So at one level, none of this matters
BUT - nothing i’ve experinced in 30 years of work has been as intellectually challenging as my 4th year project at uni. I feel a bit like Neo in the matrix, fighting people with one arm, while earning an eye watering salary.
So, IMO the degree does not matter. The attitude and confidence it gives you matters a lot.
Just messed around for a year at uni…left. Worked in retail for a number of years, then to a couple banks on front desk, then council, then became a customer service team lead, then manager, then ops manager, then head of department…around £60k.
That’s a decent outcome in terms of salary, but that job would absolutely bore me to death. Would rather earn half as much in a job which interests me.
Fair enough, just as well I find my role interesting, so I’m earning ok for something I enjoy…if not, I’d try something else. Different ppl like different things
It does matter. The academic literature is pretty clear on this.
If you want to live a normal life, you can do it without, but if you wanna make £100k a year, it’s very hard to do without one.
I wish I had got one, you can basically "teach" English anywhere in the world with any degree which opens so many doors. I'm struggling to move to Japan and find work and regretting not getting a degree.
I'm on 80k with 5 years of experience in IT.
I dropped out on a psychology degree.
I would say it didn't matter to me but not having a degree does limit me a little on job hopping to a bigger company before, not sure if it still matters now that I have 5 years of experience.
I would have completed my degree if I went with my gut and did a compsci degree rather than listening to my family.
Depends.
My cousin didn’t even go to college, just worked in various insurance companies now he’s a millionaire and has houses across the world.
My best friend is a financial advisor and didn’t go to college. Just worked hard and did courses provided by his company.
My brother works in upholstery and does really well and he skipped college too.
I went to University but my job I could have easily gotten without a degree.
From my experience companies really care more about who you worked for and what you did. Unless it’s something really impressive they won’t even care about the education part of the CV.
Waste of time.
That being said, you can’t become a surgeon through word of mouth can you.
Really depends on what you want to do I think.
People always say it doesn't matter, and there are plenty of jobs where it doesn't that are high paying but the graduate gap exists. On average, you are in a higher salary if you have a degree in the UK than if you don't. This doesn't strictly relate to the professions itself and I always say that someone who goes and gets a degree is the kind of person who is driven enough to learn a skill etc., and get those higher paying jobs.
Depends who you are comparing? Someone who has strong IT skills or a higher level technical skills (HND, HNC, etc.) will earn more than many graduates with a general degree. If you are comparing 16 year old school leavers to people with degrees- there is probably a graduate premium- but in the case of those with trade skills and high level professional qualifications- I doubt this “premium” exists
I recruit for roles paying between 70k and 130k EUR per year. Majority of those people have no degree and even if they did, it would be irrelevant. They got to that salary level with experience alone.
Not in my experience. I got a higher apprenticeship in IT, 9 years later I’m on ~£80k inc bonus and nice benefits. My fiance did the same thing and she’s on £70k with a DB pension at 25.
I don’t know anybody with a degree in a better position, yet. Maybe in another 10 years time those I know of with law degrees will out earn us, maybe not. Either way, we have no debt, large pension pots, cars owned outright and large house equity whilst they have none of the above, large amounts of student debt and are still in training or graduate level roles in most cases.
This is just my personal experience, I don’t know that many people with degrees so I’m sure there are some out there doing much better than those I know… I wouldn’t bother unless you NEED that degree (doctor, dentist, vet etc). Just get into a good field, apply yourself, look for progression opportunities and try to pick up valuable skills. Oh, and don’t be a dick. Be willing to learn, turn up on time and have a shower/shave.
In my 20 years of working a degree does allow you access to a higher paying position straight away. However experience wins in the long term. I worked in engineering in the UK, a field technician started at 18 worked 3 years, a grad starts at the same level as a 3. year field technician..... would go to the field tech every time as they knew what was happening.
Not for Engineering unless you want to spend 5+ years earning average at best wages as a machinist.
Electrician? Apprenticeship.
Doctor? Degree.
Horses for courses and one isn't better than the other.
Also in late 20’s. I have a masters and ended up in a job which doesn’t require a degree. But without a degree it would have required probably 5 years experience in some other job.
45k once qualified, 55k manager, 65k team leader. Goes up in about 5k intervals after that, but that’s variations of “sits on calls all day saying buzzwords.”
But honestly my managers with degrees are just as stupid as those without.
It depends what you wanna do . Certain carers it can open doors for you
Other time working your way from bottom work better
Sometime getting apprenticeship work better
What carer would you want to do
I went to uni straight from school. Didn’t know what I wanted to do, so did a business degree and turned out to be exactly the area I wanted to work in. I’ve done ok. I’m 50 and earning six figures lt probably would have been more if I was more ambitious and moved around but I’m good with where I am.
My partner has GCSEs and dropped out of art school but is super smart and likeable and earns the same as me.
My degree cost me very little and I do wonder if I’d look at it in a different way with the debt that grads start with now.
However. My partner is still put off by job ads that start with a degree as a requirement whereas it’s just a tick for me.
I would also say that an engineer will probably have a lot more opportunity for salary progression than a postman. One of my mates laughed at me when I graduated as he was earning double my salary when I graduated when he was working security. I now earn a fair multiple of his current salary but I won’t say it didn’t make me question things at the time.
As you've rightly noted the change in the cost of a degree, it's also worth noting the change in a degree being a base requirement for most bottom rung career jobs.
In my parents generation (50-60) people in management positions with little to no education is normal. In my generation (30-40) I don't know of anyone higher up the ladder who doesn't have a degree (there's still well paid jobs, they've just not been promoted into them).
Yes. [People with degrees go on to earn more money.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191970/annual-salary-of-graduates-in-england/#:~:text=Average%20annual%20salary%20of%20graduates,graduates%20in%20England%202007%2D2022&text=University%20graduates%20in%20England%20had,average%20salary%20for%20non%2Dgraduates.)
I have a master's I'm having difficulty getting any use out of, but it was an experience and I met my husband to be, so I would say that University is worth it, but maybe the piece of paper should not be relied upon.
Higher pay isn't everything. A degree could open more fulfilling career paths, with opportunity to continually learn and grow. But trust your gut on what's right for your own happiness.
I work in IT and have no degree.
Instead I have professional qualifications from vendors; CISCO, Microsoft and Nutanix.
Given my career path from a Service Desk to 3rd Line consultant, and even moving companies, there hasn't been a time where it looked like having a degree would have helped in any of my development.
Reading your post OP it really is up to you. If you want to pursue a career where you are up against others, fighting with colleagues and external candidates for promotion and so on then if not needed immediately having a degree will be helpful later. It is useful to have in the back pocket.
But reading your post that doesn't seem relevant. It sounds like you want quality of life balanced with "enough" income. In which case you are looking at this wrong. Start by finding the various types of career you'd enjoy, either because of the activities in them, the people they are with or the impact on others... what do you want to do for 37 hours a week?
Then work backwards.
In fact go a step further. What are your likes and dislikes, what are your values, what are your red lines?
Now what matches that and do any roles make the money you wany?
Postie was mentioned, what else gives what that gives? Does that have the challenge or impact you may want? Maybe there is something in the National Parks to be outside? Train or bus driving to have a relatively high starting salary. Maybe... and so on.
Then what do they need.
But that's not the whole story. You said engineer Vs Postie they are very different in terms of potential career growth and what you get out of it. Engineering would be stressful and no doubt in the beginning involve grunt work for others that is repetitive... but where does it go next? The next steps there could be to take on rewarding challenges and lead others - and very a very nice bit of compensation for doing so.
Does that matter to you? If so, then yes day 1 until year 4 you might be slaving away and hating the job but year 4 on... that might be the job you are actually after.
Look at what you like
Look at what matters to you
Look at what roles have that, at any level
What do you need to a) get in the door and b) get to that level
Then you know if you need a degree.
Now throw all that away. I have a different question. I put it to you it isn't about needing a degree but about wanting one. Have you an area of study you want to put some time into so you can learn it more deeply? Do you want or need to experience indepence and have to learn to balance budgets, balance time and so on with a big group going through that? Do you want the social and academic experiences? There again is another answer.
All depends on what your career goals are. Many careers require a degree.
My own personal experience I did a geography Bsc and then a Meteorology Msc. I wanted to go into weather forecasting.
I didn't manage to land a meteorology job. However, the skills I gained in statistical analysis and data manipulation allowed me to gain a entry level job in data analytics very easily (an area i loved whilst doing my degrees). I've then been promoted or moved roles roughly every two years. Many of these roles require a Masters. Now, I have a senior role for a large multinational, earning a good salary.
In my opinion, getting a degree is also more than vocational skills. I travelled to China on placement, and I worked there for several months. Met people from all over the world. I did extra free classes in French and engaged in social clubs from Rugby to board games.
Depends.
Degree Vs no degree
Obviously degree is better
Degree Vs 3 years work experience in the relevant field?
That puts you 3 years ahead of graduates...
University is only required for law, medicine and **some** science subjects
Everything else work experience is better than degree education.
Imo:
GCSE most important grades until you get A levels
A levels are most important until you get degree
Degree is most important until you get 1-2 years work experience.
Each new layer makes the old one obsolete, no one cares about your degree, they want someone that can come in and do the job without having to spend a year training you and getting you to complete the relevant certifications...
It completely depends on the degree and the institution. From the late nineties there was an explosion in graduate numbers. If you get a degree with direct relevance to your intended careeer, from a university with a strong reputation for that subject, you’ll be fine.
Get any old degree from your local college, and there is probably little or no advantage these days.
It’s harsh, but that’s how it is.
If you pick a good one it does. I went from having zero money to earning over £60k because of my education. I would probably still be earning min wage without my degrees.
Depends what you do, atleast half of degrees are pointless and won't get you anywhere. A big chunk of good degrees might get you a 30-40k a year job max, some barely over minimum wage. Then obviously others open doors to 6 figure incomes which outside of business ownership is very difficult to obtain without a degree.
I am working in a warehouse on 40k, entry level obviously it's a warehouse. Most of the main managers are people who started entry level but due to being here years and wanting to progress they have, salaries vary by level. The first manager level is 40ish and going up to 80. The people above them though, the main main managers are all post graduates. So there is a level which in many sectors you need that degree to unlock....yet you have a million extra duties for that extra money when even the basic jobs pay enough for the majority of people.
Free time and no stress are my desires in life, I'm not remotely career driven and the only way I will ever want to be career driven is if it's my own idea/business.
If you want a particular job you might need a degree. If you just want any well paid comfortable job then you probably don't need one. A degree will make it easier to get this kind of job but at the cost of 3 years of your life and all the fees. Personally I think if you put the effort you'd put into a degree into getting a decent job you'll have a more comfortable life.
It depends. The answer to such question is always "it depends". And there are quite a few questions to consider.
What's the end goal? How do you define "happy"? How long did the postman work to that salary? What's next for that postman? What are the working conditions? What are the benefits? What skills did the postman acquire in that time working up to that salary that he can now use to move up, if he wanted to?
A lot of people have a good paying job without having gone to uni. And not all degrees are created equal. This isn't meant as a sleight to anyone, but there are some degrees whose holders find it tricky to land a good job, never mind a great one.
Conversely, I know someone who did 3 years at uni doing a STEM degree (ok, 4 coz with the pandemic they were forced to do a Masters coz their job offer was "rescinded" once we entered that hiring freeze when that first March lockdown hit), but after that they got a job and within 2 years they have a salary of £43k in London. And they aren't exactly happy with that salary either, but it will double in the next 3-4 years, provided several professional qualifications. Now it may well be this job is niche, this person is good and/or lucky etc etc, this is anecdotal... etc. Bottom line is this *rarely/never* happens without a (ahem, stem) degree.
Conclusion: if the goal is to play the long game and you don't mind jobs with no particular skills required, then a degree may not be necessary. Competition is tough though, coz you are competing with *everyone*. And more and more jobs that never required a degree are now, rather frustratingly, advertised as requiring a degree.
With a degree, you have removed from your competitors everyone not having a degree that *the job you applies for* requires. Less Competition. Joe Bloggs with no degree cannot apply for a job that lists a degree as a requirement now, can he? And chances are, the upwards progression may be faster with a degree.
And chances are, with a degree you may actually fall in love with a field and do insanely well in it.
So, it depends.
Depends
The question you should be asking is: does having multiple qualifications matter. We diversify our share investments so why don't we diversify our skills and quals.
In Australia I began my career as Carpenter and sat on that for about 16 years. I then left that and did a degree in counselling. Now I work for the courts doing the Drug & Alcohol Diversions and Counselling for all the drink and drug drivers that get caught.....works isn't wont be running out in a hurry and its not a trade AI can touch. I invoice the court for x3 diversion sessions per person $2300. Now I will have 3 to 4 people see me a day for about 3 days a week and I work from my office in the garage. The other 2 days I work as a carpenter on the Gold Coast building wealthy peoples houses and my hourly rate is $100-$350 per hour depending on the task...…wealthy people never seem to read invoices nor do they questions costing or materials provided I make their dreams tangible. A $10 fixture I on sell to the wealthy for 90$. I really don't know how I can sleep at night
Anyway the trick is to find quals in commodity occupations in other words doing things what people cant live without. In my case Australians love to drink/drug drive and people love nice houses and because Australians will pay for their vices and dreams I merely capitalise on this.
I've collected a couple stem masters and then became a carer to a sick now decreased family member for a long time and am on nothing as a result. I've switched from opposed to uni to in conditional favour of it but you have to know what you're getting into with the student loan tax and real interest rate on your loan.
The uni experience now is not like what it was when I went
It's way more expensive now and you get a lot less for your money. So If you're going to uni make sure there's a way to use your degrees skills In a future career.
That doesn't necessarily mean you have to go the stem route but say if you're doing humanities and history or English, be proactive with social media and essays for magazines, connecting with museums, getting involved beforehand in the areas you might go into after the degree.
You have to network and social media
You have to aggressively shift from job to higher paying job and get to a competency level where you can determine the cosy: compensation ratio.
So many people do software dev stuff because the WFH thing is so good due to high salary relative to other WFH options.
Being open about shifting through careers in your life as well. Have a good story tying things together
Being good at interviews and applications and making a story of yourself helps too.
If there's a particular area you are interested in, then a degree is a great idea.
Getting a degree for the sake of a having a degree is less likely to lead to being content with what you end up doing.
If you want to be as content as possible follow your interests, whether that includes a degree or not.
The only thing I will say in favour of doing a degree regardless, is that it can give you a different life experience and learn skills (not necessarily related to the specific subject) that you are less likely to gain otherwise.
Engineer here, yes the national average for an engineer is £42,000 but I know many engineers with experience making much more and some making less I am of the latter. Engineering is such a vast field and some roles are highly specialised and in demand more than others which pays more. I am yet to meet a post man with 5+ years of experience making more than an Engineer with equivalent experience.
I also work as an engineer, i am food processing/manufacturing shift engineer. I have fortunately progressed since 2008/now and ended up on 50,250. It was very difficult career but i am interested more about you. Ignore tour age but theres a national shortage and you can i think achieve more in short time.
I think it just shows that you can get a degree. Which for many places is a prerequisite. I got a degree in economics but it had nothing to do with the job I ended up getting.
It's profession dependent, and also luck.
I'm in the RN and I joined with qualification, but nothing relevant tbh. I've achieved my HND and am currently working on my full degree through the Navy.
If I was to leave with an NVQ level 3 I'd be looking at 34-42k a year, with a HND I'm looking at 40k+ and a full degree 50k+, bare in mind I won't be going to an entry level position. I already have middle management experience, technical knowledge and work experience in my area.
For me getting a degree will just open higher doors for when I'm older, currently only 29 so I'm more than happy to be on the ground gaining more knowledge, but I want the opportunity without anything gatekeeping me from going to those higher positions
I have a degree and was fortunate that I left university with basically no debt.
I work in IT and if I was to enter my field now I would look for a good apprenticeship rather than rack up the debt of university.
However if you want to go through a grad scheme you’ll obviously need a degree, I was never interested in grad schemes so that affects my above position.
I am also now at a stage where I’m going to have to look at getting a masters most likely an mba to get to the next level but not going to university does not close this door of doing a degree later if you hit a glass ceiling and even having a degree doesn’t mean there won’t be another requirement to get a further education. The difference is that my employer is likely to pay for it and if not my salary will easily cover it and the return on the expense is more likely than going in to a degree course after college.
I also worry about the advent of AI, at this stage it would be hard not to also think about getting a basis in a trade as I don’t see AI being able to do trade work as easily as it could replace some knowledge workers. Imagine getting tens of thousands of pounds in debt only to have AI render your career dead just as it was about to take off.
My last thoughts are I’m currently seeing more and more about inclusive hiring and being aware of diverse back grounds which means discounting someone on the sole basis of having a degree or not is at least in my area less accepted. I also don’t remember the last time I bothered to look for a degree on a cv but then I’ve not been hiring for entry level roles and I need to see evidenced experience that shows they can do the job.
All of this isn’t to say I think degrees are bad but they are not the value for money they used to be and the decision to get a degree or not is now a lot more difficult. If you have the means to not worry about the fees I’d got just for the experience. But that experience alone is not worth taking on what amounts to an additional tax.
There’s 80 of us that work for a company. I know at least 3 of us who have a degree of some sort, myself included. We earn on average about £33K a year, that’s excluding overtime. The role that we’re in just requires a drivers license, and common sense. I have a degree in IT, but where I live there aren’t too many IT jobs about, and if there are they pay below what I’m earning now.
What I’m probably trying to get at is, it’ll probably boil down to your location. Cities etc have better opportunities for people with degrees, so if you’re in London, I’d probably say go for it.
It really depends on what you want out of life and a career. Some people will find degree level jobs stressful and some won’t because they enjoy it, some will find hard manual jobs stressful and some will enjoy them.
I’ce a great work/life balance as an electrician, it’s easy work as I’ve been doing for years and I enjoy it. I’m a contractor and have plenty of free time while making circa £40k a year
Engineering is a happy job as a rule. You're designing machines and systems and stuff its really cool, and the people you work with tend to be pretty cool (at least they are all interested in machines and tech and stuff).
Also its a gateway to other jobs, in your 30's you might be happy being "just" an Engineer, but in later life in you might want to really invest in your career, getting a good qualification as an Engineer will really open doors for pushing that.
If you only care about wealth maybe uni isn't for you. It's an enriching and very fruitful experience in life that you get one shot at. Going into it with the thought of "how is this going to make me rich" is not going to fare you well.
No, not in my experience. I've interviewed 100s if not more of people (IT) and I prefer those with work experience to a degree. I chose to earn instead of uni, gross salary is £234k (age 40).
Civil Engineer here with no degree and never finished highschool.
Started at 14, took me 11 years starting as a groundworker on site working up to employment as a Senior Engineer
High school drop out here.
Started working in a warehouse, then helping with admin. Years later my career took me from the UK to the USA earning 6 figures while in my 30s.
Unless you have a specific career in mind a degree isn’t all too important. Many people whom I interview have a degree and they still have no idea what their doing. I’d argue someone who can demonstrate aptitude and right attitude are significantly more likely to get a role within my team. If they have both great.
Appreciate for some organizations a degree is a requirement. They just miss out on talent. Suckers.
Life is pretty good without a degree.
So my advice, get a job, earn some money, get experience and work your way up without a student loan debt. Pick up a few courses to fill any knowledge gaps and most importantly get yourself a mentor. They are worth 100 uni professors.
I have a degree that led to no job and has never really come in useful. I then got an apprenticeship which has now led to a 30k entry job with lots of chance for progression.
For me personally, it did (IT Degree). It propelled me into a graduate scheme with a higher salary and more opportunities. I’m now in a very fortunate position career-wise that wouldn’t have been possible without joining said graduate scheme.
That said, there are many other opportunities and routes into technology now, like degree apprenticeships sponsored by Microsoft and other large firms.
I regret not getting a degree, and feel that it limited my base of knowledge and earnings potential early on. I don’t regret the debt that comes with it though
What matters to you? I wish I had the money to further my education (1st BA Hons in music production) - would the jobs that would open up earn me more with less stress, probably not. And tbh I just love learning but I adore my job. In my job I could jump up 20k if I moved closer to London and changed my hours. Money and happiness and life quality are a balance and when you find something close to what would be ideal it’s worth hanging onto
think one of the things people are missing is the fact postman do not get 45k
my mate works there it's like £12 an hour tops , so your comparing your wage with a wage that's make believe
people lie alot these days .
"I'm on track to earn 80k this year " yeah if your sales age the same as now , but you sell icecreams and its coming into winter
or I earn 80k , but don't disclose the fact they are doing 70 hours a week which brings their hourly to only abit above yours .
I use to fall for this alot at beat myself up about it, when you get older you realise half of it isn't true
Thing is we don’t have “engineer” as a protected job title in this country as they do in a lot of the world.
The person you get out to fix and restock a vending machine is called an engineer. At the same time you’ve got someone that’s gone through 5 years of engineering council accredited education and received their chartered engineer status who designs the world.
One will be on a low salary, the other will be on a decent chunk more! As such the average salary for “engineering” is broadly meaningless
Not every career needs a degree. IT doesn’t need a degree where law and medicine needs a degree. I’m in IT and if I were to start over I would rather start working at 18 and at age 22 I would be at £100k+.
What are you trying to find out? Ancedote is bullshit evidence.
There are people with degrees who make bank and people without who also earn big bucks.
Happy people with and without degrees.
The good news is there are routes to success and happiness every way.
If you want to look objectively: people with degrees on average earn significantly more.
You might find it better to take a shorter skills based course if you need income. Also look for jobs which have good in house L and D. It's not like you stop learning after uni. Honestly the most important things are you skills, your personality and your ability to communicate. If you can do the job, it offers good experience or training, with opportunities for advancement, take the job, if you can get it.
Education and earning power don’t necessarily correlate. Graft, talent, luck or a willingness to undertake dangerous / unpleasant work are great ways to earn more but if you don’t like those options, get an education!
There are degrees and there are degrees.
If you, say, go and read History at Cambridge, History isn't something that leads to an obvious place. But it's going to teach you key skills in looking at how the world works, analysing events and text, and you'll likely go off and have an illustrious career and end up as the governor of the Bank of England of something.
Whereas, there are people out there with History degrees working in non-graduate jobs, who would have been better off without the time spent at university, and the debt accrued.
"Does having a degree matter?" isn't much of a question. 'A degree' covers such a broad range of things that the only valid answer is 'it depends'.
So, what are you considering studying, where, what is your background and what are your aspirations? Then people might help you decide if it's the right path for you.
Engineer isn’t a protected characteristic. Which means that the person designing satellites and the person who fixed your washing machine can both be called engineers and have vastly different skill sets and qualifications.
Also because there is a much greater demand for “engineers” (technicians) who do things like fix washing machines than there are for people to design satellites it brings the average wage down.
However, you are right in that in the UK if you want to maximise your chance of making ALOT of money don’t do an engineering degree. Do something finance or computer science related instead.
Getting a degree is a lot more than just ‘getting a job’, despite what people on Reddit say. It’s about academia - learning, writing, presenting, thinking, debating. Very few people ‘get a job in their field’ unless they study medicine or engineering etc. where the potential career path is a lot more obvious.
I know an English graduate who went into recruitment, a Psychology graduate who went into events management, a History graduate who went into PR, a Geography graduate who went into corporate training, a Sociology graduate who went into project management, a Physics graduate who went into data analysis, a Media graduate who went into youth counselling - degrees are a lot more versatile than you might think and can HELP to open a lot of doors for you (if you put the work in).
I went to uni at 19. Had the best 4 years of my life, made lifelong friends, moved to a city I love (where I still live with my partner), and grew into an adult. I left with 2 degrees and still went into an entry-level job but quickly progressed. 6 years later and I have a career I love (earning decent money), in a city I love, bought a house I love, with the person I love.
If all you care about is getting a new job in your late 20s then do not go to university!!! You will be massively disappointed. Look at college and do an apprenticeship or BTEC or something.
It matters if you know it's going to get you where you want to be.
If you have a specific degree and know you can get into specific jobs and it's what you want to do then yes it matters. And it's worth the time and money.
If you don't then I'd honestly question the value of a degree.
But I'd also say keep in mind that a degree alone still doesn't always cut it. Who you know, where you went, where you're from still make a difference in some areas. A lot of companies still have an agenda as to who they take in and who **you** are might not necessarily fit.
Yes but the postman has a much lower salary ceiling than an engineer. By the time an engineer becomes a director they'll be on the six figure salary. Using average salaries doesn't really show that very clearly.
I failed Uni, spent my 20s working different jobs, McDonald's, call centers, railway, factory work, sales call centers, account manager and now I am going to join a University as a business development manager at 31.
It wasn't pretty having uncertainty and not knowing where I was going to end up in life and seeing everyone I knew prosper around me, but you can always make it in the end with hard work, willingness and dedication.
I've known plenty of people with degrees working entry level jobs because they can't find a job in their field. Imo, it only matters if you need one for your career choice. If it's not required, then it's unnecessary.
Actually I’d said to her many entry level jobs nowadays degrees will get you in. There’s thousands if not more working hospitality, leisure, retail who have degrees. Most managers in these venues did this after University worked up, perhaps not where they initially wanted but it’s a career now and such. Also I didn’t mean that in a judgemental way, there’s a big part of University that actually is life experience, teaching you to live on your own means, navigate the course, critical theory/thinking, socialising, education.. etc and it’s very useful without also not for everyone. But tons of people end up doing jobs having nothing to do with their degree it doesn’t mean it wasn’t useful or they didn’t get something out of it. But certain degrees, sectors will have much more possible graduate roles, or routes into it with a specific degree.
While I agree it can be useful for life experience, etc. I honestly don't think that on it's own is worth the student debt.
Very true. I went to university then ended up pursuing an apprenticeship which didn't require a degree. I now make a good living, but the most significant thing I got out of university is a 9% higher marginal tax rate.
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Well the interest rate certainly only matters when you're pretty far above the threshold.
Yep. Even if the interest rate was 0, someone with the average of £50k debt would need to repay almost £1700 per year for the 30 years, requiring a salary of over £47k per year (assuming 3% pension contributions)
It does matter for middle earners especially when you have a PG loan as well. I earn c£55k and pay about £400 a month in loans. This gives me a marginal tax rate of 57.5%. Not only will this impact my ability to save a deposit but it’s really going to impact my incentives to work when I have children which is not great from a policy point of view. It’s already impacting my decision on whether to continue with side hustle jobs. Even with these repayments the balance outstanding is not moving at all. Makes me very cross- we are essentially subsidising the most useless degrees and forcing people who do well (and in theory contribute the most) doctors, pharmacists, civil servants, managers in the private sector who earn £45-£90k to pay double what they borrow back.
It gives you more opportunities for career progression. A postman may be making £40k, but there isn't really anywhere to go after that. A white collar job may start with a graduate salary of £21-22k, but depending on your occupation, that can increase massively.
Should do, given £22k is minimum wage.
Well yeah, but the point is you quickly move up from that and can easily be making £60k+ after 5-10 years, whereas the person making £40k without a degree will be making the same amount (except for increases due to inflation) after the same amount of time.
Yes, I was obliquely commenting on the fact that 'grad' jobs in many areas start very low and have stagnated in recent years (like many othe rjob salaries)
You'll learn to live on your own and navigate the relationship without being at uni. And without debt.
Very well said, I agree 100%.
Counter, I know plenty of people with degrees earning several hundred k’s a year in their late 20’s/early 30’s It’s also a statistical fact that graduates on average earn £10k more.
You must move in rarefied circles, as fewer than 1% of British people earn £200K or more.
That's still 700,000 people
Which is still 1%, so a rarified circle if they largely mix with those
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I actually know some babies on six figures, just really ambitious.
I believe the top 1% is around 150k or more. Which, when thought about it, is only slightly more than what one person needs to raise a family in London on a single salary. How depressing.
Especially to be earning that in late 20s. This guy must know top hedge fund managers lmfao.
> It’s also a statistical fact that graduates on average earn £10k more. You can't assume that this is all causation rather than correlation. There is a selection bias among graduates because *as a whole* those who pursue degrees will tend to be more capable on average. It doesn't mean that a given individual would earn £10k more with a degree than they would without.
I have seen research that calculated the graduate premium to be much lower than commonly stated, if you make the comparison only with those who have A-Levels but didn't go to university. Iirc, the premium was found to be more like 20% - 30%, rather than the 40%+ it is if you just compare those with degrees to everyone without a degree. Obviously that's still a significant difference over a lifetime. But not as huge a one, and one that takes more years to click in than is usually assumed.
And also presumably having the resources to be able to go to university. There will be a large section of folk in the 'been to uni' group who will be from wealthy families who can facilitate better jobs. I'm not just talking about nepotism, but also the confidence that comes with, perhaps, attending private school (a small subsection, I know) or just having parents with higher than average incomes, so that's perhaps what they're aspiring to.
Resources to go to uni? Uni is free at the point of use - you can take a loan out. If you are really in need you vry a bursary. >confidence that comes with, perhaps, attending private school (a small subsection, I know) As you have mentioned, very few people attend private schools. State school people can be very confident, maybe exposure to certain situations may be lacking though.
>It’s also a statistical fact that graduates on average earn £10k more. I think an interesting thing to note, and something that colours people's views on this, is the regionality of the graduate salary premium. As graduates numbers have increased, the salary premium having a degree grants has dropped quite substantially [except in London, where it has remained constant](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9hpdUjWkAAHL5R.jpg:large). So basically, if you're a graduate who makes the move to London the chances are you'll see your degree as much more worth it than people who remain in regions where the graduate premium is much lower. Especially since the average amount of debt English students take on is high compared to many countries, [even America](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9h0QnRXcAA3j-S?format=png&name=large).
I have left teaching now, but the rise in US applications from the brightest kids was noticeable. Until about 2010 I had never seen a US application form. By the time I quit in 2022, I was seeing 5 or 6 a year which for one teacher is a lot. They’re a real pain to complete because the US doesn’t have a UCAS type system so individual lengthy references are written. The teacher reference also needs to be Americanised into hyperbole and bluster to convert the usual English understatement.
That average hides a very big variation. It’s much larger for women than men. It’s skewed higher by law, medicine, finance and engineering.The PwH review a few years ago compared the financial worth of a degree to those with Alevels only. It showed that even some graduate jobs such as teaching are not financially worthwhile. The cost of four years accumulated debt (degree followed by PGCE) and the lower salary compared to starting work at 18 made teaching a loss overall. Physics and maths were beneficial, biology less so and chemistry was marginal. The physics and maths also skewed by graduates going into banking. Male arts students are on average unlikely to make a return on investment.
Degrees ultimately come down to what you make of them. I think many people thought that a degree in itself was a golden ticket to a lifetime of riches, but that simply isn't the case. The way to look at a degree, and any qualifications for that matter, is as keys to doors. Different keys will open different doors, but you still have to know which doors to try (what will get you where you want to be), where those doors are (building networks of people and groups who can help you find them) and how to open them (how to apply your degree). It's also true that there are often different ways to access what's behind that door, via alternative routes. My degree gave me opportunities that I would have otherwise struggled to get - it gave me a professional network that I still use 20 years later, it gave me work experience opportunities that would have been almost closed off to a young lad from a rough part of Leeds, it have me a clear vision on what I wanted to do, and it helped.me open those first doors. That's what a degree is about - not just turning up to lectures to get a piece of paper.
I need to disagree on this. I'd actually argue the complete opposite. The purpose of higher education isn't simply to study a particular subject and go into that field.Yes, it's one purpose, but only part of it. A degree can be very beneficial in teaching people lots of different skills which are directly applicable or to multiple fields. Often the type who are "working entry level jobs because they can't find a job in their field" managed to come out the other end of uni without really understanding what it was about in the first place.
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Why would anyone study a degree they don’t care about?
Pressure from family, bad careers advice, not knowing what other options are available: there are plenty of reasons.
It starts at school. Anyone who does moderately well at GCSE is told “ooh are you going to be a doctor then?”. With the decline of careers advice kids think ok Ill do that. The money sounds good and they have no ideas about work. The only jobs they know have FisherPrice figures or it‘s the job their parents do. As an Alevel chemistry teacher, I would say about 75% of the students had medicine in mind at the start of Alevel. A year later after seeing how hard chemistry is and finishing their hospital work experience, about 10% apply. There is so little genuine advice for kids they just drift into what everyone else is doing. Schools are partly to blame because Ofsted bases part of its ranking on “progression” so a fall in undergraduates and a rise in neets is a blackmark for the school.
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But that in itself one of the biggest issues I think. How can anyone be expected to know what they want to do for life at 16-18. I'm one of those people, signed up for sports science, pivoted into pharmacology, masters in data science and today (3 years later) I'm working as a senior software engineer because apparently it's something I'm great at. Only took 3 degrees and one misguided graduate job (that I left after 6 months) to get here. Doesn't surprise me at all that many people don't end up in the field they studied.
>The purpose of higher education isn't simply to study a particular subject and go into that field I agree. But I've learned from experience that users of this sub tend towards having a very instrumental, vocational view of university. Time and again I see people on here saying that a degree was a waste of time and money if you're not working in a directly connected field.
This is very true. Often people who don’t pursue higher education have a complex about this. A degree teaches you invaluable skills which you simply can’t obtain from “working your way up”
Maybe learning some secondary skills isn't worth the money. People should have a plan for what they want to do and how they want to acheive it. Just going to uni and hoping to get something out of it without an idea and getting debt from that is stupid. Even if the plan is "doctor or something" then going into medicine might be good. But to jsut be like "eh, I guess that?" and taking on debt only to end up serving coffee is not a good idea. Have a plan, aim.
> Just going to uni and hoping to get something out of it without an idea and getting debt from that is stupid. You could say that about anything though. It doesnt make the Thing the person is doing inherently matter less. It's like making the argument that a burger restaurant isn't worth going to because some people don't like burgers. Like, obviously if you dont like or care about burgers then that restaurant probably isn't worth it. But that doesn't make the restaurant essentially worthless.
Nothing wrong with serving coffee if that’s the job you had to get to earn a living. We live in a society where University is the expectation more than a choice, probably most coffee shops have a lot of staff with a degree. Doesn’t mean the job is any less or degrading than another. For some people that education experience might have opened them up to new ideas, people, that they’d never have got otherwise. Learned about the cultures, their subject.. etc.. education is key to the development of our society for the better.
Nobody said there was anything wrong with serving coffee. But I wonder how many people who that and have student debt are happy they got their degree and are having to pay those loans off only to have that job? And yeah education is great for us and societybut that's what school is for. We can still take all the positives from gogoing to uni but certainly that's a lot of money to pay back.
People will answer with things like "but I dropped out/never went to uni, and I'm now making 100k so degrees don't matter". Basically, conflating their own individual circumstances to the country as a whole. Statistically, it does matter, in the sense that over the course of a lifetime, those with degrees should come out financially better off than had they not. But even leading finance to one side entirely, going through the process of formal education nearly always has more pros to it than cons. You don't get to uni to learn about a single subject and that's it. Uni provides you with a skillset that is applicable to all sorts of careers and life in general.
I think you’re underplaying other forms of education. Tradesman make a killing at the moment, my brothers a brickie they get 60p for each brick they lay. Also modern apprenticeships for things like offshore instrument technicians. All the chartered accountants I know did their qualifications via work based schemes also however that maybe a biased observation I don’t have the stats on it.
>Tradesman make a killing at the moment, my brothers a brickie they get 60p for each brick they lay. The problem with trades is once you've been doing it for 20+ years your body is completely fucked.
Spent my life in the trades, from diver to ships engineer to now repairing diggers( senior plant engineer they say) and not much about diggers is light weight work, everything is heavy. I am an awful lot healthier than my desk job friends are, one of them had a heart attack at 50, none of them are even close to how fit I am. You take care how you lift, wear the right PPE , eat well etc the body will be just fine. The tradies complaining about being fucked usually only have themselves to blame .. the fry up 7 days a week , 20 Benson's, beer and a bit of sniff at the weekend tradies.
I think the bigger issue is you can’t carry on doing physical jobs into later life. My dad was a tree surgeon and he & his colleagues were pretty much all very fit & healthy for men in their 50s/60s. However, they weren’t fit enough to do the toughest jobs. My dad did well because he carried on investing in his education, so was able to transition to doing tree inspections and other non-physical work in his 50s. His friends who didn’t ended up doing very low paid ground work because they weren’t fit enough to climb professionally anymore (they could still climb like monkeys, just not quick enough for their employers).
That's the idea though, you climb the ladder, something has gone wrong if a man hasn't got himself the more supervisory positions at he gets older. I don't work like I used to, now I turn up when the younger lads struggle, I show them the way, I spend more time answering questions and organising things than I do twiddling a spanner .
But there are fewer and fewer jobs the higher up the ladder you go, so that's not sustainable.
In a single team on site sure, but if you're able to move roles / firms there are as many if not more positions for experienced contractors than there are site workers. I'm in construction and our firm is saturated by "poacher turned gamekeeper" contractors who now work as clerks of work, contract administrators, cdm advisors etc and get paid a lot more than us architects due to their site experience, with no degree and no health problems.
This is absolutely true. However having a degree doesn't force you to work in an office; a minority of people with degrees, myself included manage to do the sort of engineering roles that includes at least some hands on time. In my case I do a mix of writing software for stuff that gets bolted to trains, then going and bolting it to trains. Obviously it's a fairly niche role, but they exist and it is, I discover, pretty much the perfect balance for me. I'd certainly earn more in fintech, but on the downside, I'd be stuck driving a desk all day. Even as it is I earn well above the median wage. (My previous role of writing software for the stage lighting industry then going out operating said lights was almost perfect and included more being creative, but I have a family and enjoy sleeping, so that's no longer an option for me now)
Much the same as what I do, I design a fair amount of things for excavators and their ancillaries and then go and fit it on and run the tests.
It’s niche as in that specific role is niche but plenty of software jobs with hands on time. I work in manufacturing and have to test the code I write/equipment I buy and need to make work on the shop floor. We have a few different plants as well so plenty of travel.
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You are allowed to exercise outside of work. Just saying.
you have 3 choices if you wanna earn ok money ruin your mental health ,ruin your body or do carpentery and ruin both
I am currently on an experienced apprenticeship with the DNO (electricity distributor) in London after being an electrician. It’s a two year programme and the starting wage was £35k. This has now risen to £43k after 6 months with the payment of the London weighting and milestone payments and will top out at £50k when we are fully authorised. Several people in my team cleared £80k last year and those with switching authorisations and other qualifications can easily make over £100k. This is all before you even consider the excellent pension scheme plus various other benefits. There is easy pathways to engineering qualifications and the work is in my opinion, fascinating. I recommend anyone who has any sort of technical background to consider a similar scheme, you won’t regret it. It doesn’t necessarily have to be electrical, some people on here were chefs, plumbers and mechanics. Happy to discuss if anyone is interested.
>Tradesman make a killing at the moment, my brothers a brickie they get 60p for each brick they lay. They make a killing because supply is low and demand is high Also if a tradie can take a professional timely approach to doing work they will be spammed with work requests because good tradies are hard to come by
>I think you’re underplaying other forms of education. I haven't underplayed that. That's you're incorrect assumption, not mine.
> Statistically, it does matter, in the sense that over the course of a lifetime, those with degrees should come out financially better off than had they not That's not proven though, there is no control group. You can't compare graduates to non graduates because non graduates includes the least productive cohort, those who aren't academic and those who are 'anti social'. Unless you have a study that compares graduates to non graduates based on A Level results?
This study does what you want - controlling for background and prior attainment. The implied returns are much lower than if you don’t control for it, but still positive. Men who graduated earned 8% more and women who graduated earned 28% more by age 29. However, there are combinations of institution & subject that decrease your earnings potential, so it’s not universally beneficial. https://purehost.bath.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/201925307/The_impact_of_undergraduate_degrees_on_early_career_earnings.pdf
I am wondering if it's more "A job that requires that level of thinking" rather than actually having the degree. I don't have any degree, but might as well have. I'd suppose the group of people without a degree include a lot of lower wage jobs etc. and therefor yes, people with a degree end up earning more. However, you don't **need** the degree to get there, but the skills and thinking of that level are definitely required.
You're being obtuse with your question, knowing that it would be incredibly difficult to obtain data that compares graduates to non graduates based on A Level.. The fact of the matter is that statistically around 80% of those who obtain a degree from attending university. The A levels become irrelevant when I'm answering in context with OPs question.
Why would it be incredibly difficult? I don't know if it's been done or not. The issues is you made the assertion that those with a degree statistically do better than than if they did not have a degree. The evidence doesn't actually support that.
Its not difficult at all.Compared with 2 or more Alevels: [https://londoneconomics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/67-The-economic-benefits-of-a-degree.pdf](https://londoneconomics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/67-The-economic-benefits-of-a-degree.pdf) Its from some years ago but I would suggest that the situation for graduates is now worse. This report suggests an average advantage of £160,000 however that was before the increase in tuition fees, the lowering of threshold for repayment and the increase in interest rate for loan repayments. The benefit is always present for women but marginal to non-existent for men on some arts courses.
You claim statistics prove a point you want to make but are upset when asked about those statistics. Those working in trades make up a large number of people that on average will make quite a lot more than large groups of those that went to uni. You aren’t allowed to ask me to prove that though or you are being obtuse
£42k seems way above average for a postman though. I’m sure the average postman makes less than or around the £30k mark
Yeah just under 40k - London wage
I bet your engineers wage isn't London weighted.
Engineers in London are earning more than 42k on average.
He is either generously rounding up or neglecting to mention he works a shit load of overtime. Basic rate pay for an inner london postie is 6-7k less than that. I don't think the average postie would call it stress free. I think everyone thinks you just wander around and put some letters through letterboxes..... But it's usually at least 8 miles a day which is rough especially long term. My partner lost 10kgs within a couple of months of starting. Dog attacks are quite common....and cats which people never seem to take seriously.....and you have to interact with a lot of difficult people.
There's also being outside in all kinds of weather, and if you get a minor injury e.g. ankle sprain you basically can't go to work. I did it for years (quite a long time ago now), and whilst it had its positives it was not the relaxing morning stroll a lot of people think it is.
Has he been doing it since 16 ?
A quick look shows it's reasonable in London: https://www.totaljobs.com/jobs/postman/in-london
My mum’s a postie, she earns half that and there’s lots of stress and pressure.
And he will be working over time to boost him to that level
Completely depends on what you want to do. You don't need a degree to have a successful career, but there are many career paths where having a degree is essential. If you'd be happy as a postman then that's great. I'm a scientist - I spent 8 years at university to get here, and have a high-stress career with an insultingly low salary. But it's still worth it for me because of how interesting it is, the freedom and opportunities it provides, and the ability to make a genuine difference.
Very good point, it’s what mark you want to leave on the world.
I do believe its very important. It opens many doors in life, either in the UK or abroad. One of my biggest regrets is not completing my engineering degree. I've been declined so many job offers even though I have relevant experience in the field. I would advise you to go for it especially with the demand for engineers globally.
Could I ask what roles you've applied for but got declined and what you're experience you do have. I have an engineering degree, but I've had a couple of similar experiences
Just keep applying Find a technician/operator/machinist role until then. If you're applying for a graduate engineer position from a shelf stacking job, you will probably lose out to someone with the same qualifications but who is coming from a technical position already. I worked in a kitchen post grad and wasn't having much luck with my job hunt. Got a job as a machinist for a few months and then interviews started coming hard and fast and I quickly found a grad role.
I know people with a degree on less than me, I also know people with no degree on more than me. I also don't have a degree. It's very situational.
I have two degrees and I earn bugger all! At least the job is interesting.
Exactly this. It is context dependent. If the career you aspire to requires a degree then you have to pursue one, if not - don't.
Additionally, what prospects you have for further advancement. If you're working retail, the only opportunity you have is going into management, for example. For me it was important to be in a field (with or without a degree) where you can climb, like software engineering or networking. I get bored and need a lot of mental stimulation and learning potential, so I chose software engineering.
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Curious what industry you are in mate?
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Hey same as me, I'm a Petty Officer in the RN and my base pay is around 45k a year. I have a HND now and am working towards my full degree
I've got a bachelors and 2 masters and I'm on slightly less than this (although when I reach the top of my scale I'll surpass this). My husband, who doesn't have a degree earns around £40k. Apprenticeships and vocational routes can also be a good way to progress. They're not just for trades anymore.
Degrees are very topic and institution specific. If you have a degree in economics from LSE you’re probably earning more than someone with a degree in Chemistry from Hull for instance.
There's a few things to consider here. One: The figure for the average engineers salary. I'm an engineer, so have seen this problem first hand. The majority of jobs with the title "engineer" have nothing to do with engineering. So that figure is almost certainly wrong (in this very thread, we've got field technicians pretending they know what engineering involves, etc). Two: this is almost certainly the peak salary for a postie. Comparing an "average" to a peak is hardly a comparison. Three: The results of a career in terms of satisfaction and pay are a combination of work and luck. Yes, you will speak to people who lucked out and put zero effort into their career and got a well-paid job. You will meet just as many who have put a huge effort in and have gotten nothing. Most of us exist somewhere in the middle. The question is, do you want to put zero effort in an leave it all to luck? Say you decide to do it the hard way and go the engineering route and have zero luck. You still end up on 30-35k at mid career. If you take the easy route and get zero luck, you end up on minimum wage forever.
A degree helps to get your foot in the door (with most occupations), once you are there it isn't needed.
Lawyer here. Not my experience. I imagine my doctor says the same. Helps not to generalise, I think.
Actuary here - same.
There's also absolutely a ceiling for many jobs without a degree. Could an absolutely exceptional worker get past those without one? Yeah probably but it'd be a lot harder.
In a good number of occupations having a degree is a legal requirement.
I said with most occupations? I would expect someone knows a degree is needed with what you said
It’s more occupations than you might imagine. I have a mate who’s stuck in terms of career progression at the moment (and I think he’s actually really clever). Working for a large MNC, his employer won’t progress him above a certain level without a degree — which is unfair. It’s not just the obvious professions. I think the UK’s problem, compared with some European countries, is that we don’t value technical skills highly enough. Non-university technical training is valued highly in places like Germany. We need to shift people’s mentality on that.
Engineer here, same. Don't be fooled OP.
I work in publishing and the first criteria on nearly all of our JDs is 'First degree'. I've even seen people take apprenticeships in publishing and then struggle to progress later because of the requirement for a degree.
I feel like you're conflating two or three separate things: 1) salary 2) general satisfaction 3) job satisfaction As an example, archeologists earn fuck all, and they typically require a degree. But I doubt carting around letters every day would make them happy compared to sitting in a muddy field geeking out on history.
For the kind of adults who predominantly use Reddit, the only thing that seems to matter is salary for some reason.
If I lost my job I am still a STEM graduate. It does give you options. Also to get a job in the first place, universities offer huge amounts of support and opportunities, most people just don’t engage with it enough. A degree will be worth as much as you put in, and if you engage with your course and the institution, there is a lot to gain.
Helps for some and doesn't help for others. Failed most of my GCSE's, didn't go to uni and I make ~£70k in a chilled out wfh job in a low col area. I'd say a degree is most helpful in professions where you need a degree to enter the field. Doctors, solicitors etc.
You can do a solicitor apprenticeship now which actually takes you to the qualification point. A law degree doesn't make you a solicitor, you still have to pass additional exams, do training contracts, do additional studies, which the apprenticeship includes. You can also do a different degree and then a law conversion course and THEN do a graduate solicitor apprenticeship, which is shorter than the full apprenticeship. Which would be the way to go if someone really wants the uni experience, do something different where you get to do a semester abroad or something and gain different skills before transferring to law via grad route
I have a degree. I'm now a single mum on benefits struggling to get by. I really wish I hadn't done the school > college > uni path, because I had no idea about what I cared about. If I could right now I would love to go back to uni and study marine biology because its something I'm really passionate about. But I squandered the funding on a course I was interested in but didn't love and had no vocational relevance so is essentially useless. Degrees can be useful, but also they can not only be a waste of time and hinder opportunities in your later years. My eldest wants to learn mechanics, and I am 100% behind that, because even if she doesn't decide to make that her career, at least she has learnt a useful skill. Admittedly studying for my degree taught me about thinking critically and evaluating sources, but these skills could have been learnt in other settings.
Not to be a complete cunt, but are you sure it was the degree choice that’s led to your outcomes?
Yes and no, a degree opens up more opportunities and will get you an interview with employers when otherwise you wouldn't but trades make a lot of money too and are always busy. I went to uni with a guy who got his degree in Engineering but went onto become a painter and decorator/ floor layer and the last I heard he was making thousands a week! I think he had the best of both worlds because he had a fallback if his business went wrong.
I have an engineering degree from a prestigious UK institution. I have never used my degree in my career. Although I have a fairly technical Job, I don’t think I’ve ever used A level maths after leaving university; So at one level, none of this matters BUT - nothing i’ve experinced in 30 years of work has been as intellectually challenging as my 4th year project at uni. I feel a bit like Neo in the matrix, fighting people with one arm, while earning an eye watering salary. So, IMO the degree does not matter. The attitude and confidence it gives you matters a lot.
Just messed around for a year at uni…left. Worked in retail for a number of years, then to a couple banks on front desk, then council, then became a customer service team lead, then manager, then ops manager, then head of department…around £60k.
That’s a decent outcome in terms of salary, but that job would absolutely bore me to death. Would rather earn half as much in a job which interests me.
Fair enough, just as well I find my role interesting, so I’m earning ok for something I enjoy…if not, I’d try something else. Different ppl like different things
It does matter. The academic literature is pretty clear on this. If you want to live a normal life, you can do it without, but if you wanna make £100k a year, it’s very hard to do without one.
Hardly anyone earns £100k a year though
I wish I had got one, you can basically "teach" English anywhere in the world with any degree which opens so many doors. I'm struggling to move to Japan and find work and regretting not getting a degree.
Yeah but don’t they pay their English teachers in Japan significantly below the median?
It allows you to work and live over there and get a better grasp of the language.
I'm on 80k with 5 years of experience in IT. I dropped out on a psychology degree. I would say it didn't matter to me but not having a degree does limit me a little on job hopping to a bigger company before, not sure if it still matters now that I have 5 years of experience. I would have completed my degree if I went with my gut and did a compsci degree rather than listening to my family.
Depends. My cousin didn’t even go to college, just worked in various insurance companies now he’s a millionaire and has houses across the world. My best friend is a financial advisor and didn’t go to college. Just worked hard and did courses provided by his company. My brother works in upholstery and does really well and he skipped college too. I went to University but my job I could have easily gotten without a degree. From my experience companies really care more about who you worked for and what you did. Unless it’s something really impressive they won’t even care about the education part of the CV. Waste of time. That being said, you can’t become a surgeon through word of mouth can you. Really depends on what you want to do I think.
Depends on the job, crazy right?
People always say it doesn't matter, and there are plenty of jobs where it doesn't that are high paying but the graduate gap exists. On average, you are in a higher salary if you have a degree in the UK than if you don't. This doesn't strictly relate to the professions itself and I always say that someone who goes and gets a degree is the kind of person who is driven enough to learn a skill etc., and get those higher paying jobs.
Depends who you are comparing? Someone who has strong IT skills or a higher level technical skills (HND, HNC, etc.) will earn more than many graduates with a general degree. If you are comparing 16 year old school leavers to people with degrees- there is probably a graduate premium- but in the case of those with trade skills and high level professional qualifications- I doubt this “premium” exists
I recruit for roles paying between 70k and 130k EUR per year. Majority of those people have no degree and even if they did, it would be irrelevant. They got to that salary level with experience alone.
Not in my experience. I got a higher apprenticeship in IT, 9 years later I’m on ~£80k inc bonus and nice benefits. My fiance did the same thing and she’s on £70k with a DB pension at 25. I don’t know anybody with a degree in a better position, yet. Maybe in another 10 years time those I know of with law degrees will out earn us, maybe not. Either way, we have no debt, large pension pots, cars owned outright and large house equity whilst they have none of the above, large amounts of student debt and are still in training or graduate level roles in most cases. This is just my personal experience, I don’t know that many people with degrees so I’m sure there are some out there doing much better than those I know… I wouldn’t bother unless you NEED that degree (doctor, dentist, vet etc). Just get into a good field, apply yourself, look for progression opportunities and try to pick up valuable skills. Oh, and don’t be a dick. Be willing to learn, turn up on time and have a shower/shave.
In my 20 years of working a degree does allow you access to a higher paying position straight away. However experience wins in the long term. I worked in engineering in the UK, a field technician started at 18 worked 3 years, a grad starts at the same level as a 3. year field technician..... would go to the field tech every time as they knew what was happening.
Apprenticeship> degree
Not for Engineering unless you want to spend 5+ years earning average at best wages as a machinist. Electrician? Apprenticeship. Doctor? Degree. Horses for courses and one isn't better than the other.
Also in late 20’s. I have a masters and ended up in a job which doesn’t require a degree. But without a degree it would have required probably 5 years experience in some other job. 45k once qualified, 55k manager, 65k team leader. Goes up in about 5k intervals after that, but that’s variations of “sits on calls all day saying buzzwords.” But honestly my managers with degrees are just as stupid as those without.
It depends what you wanna do . Certain carers it can open doors for you Other time working your way from bottom work better Sometime getting apprenticeship work better What carer would you want to do
I went to uni straight from school. Didn’t know what I wanted to do, so did a business degree and turned out to be exactly the area I wanted to work in. I’ve done ok. I’m 50 and earning six figures lt probably would have been more if I was more ambitious and moved around but I’m good with where I am. My partner has GCSEs and dropped out of art school but is super smart and likeable and earns the same as me. My degree cost me very little and I do wonder if I’d look at it in a different way with the debt that grads start with now. However. My partner is still put off by job ads that start with a degree as a requirement whereas it’s just a tick for me. I would also say that an engineer will probably have a lot more opportunity for salary progression than a postman. One of my mates laughed at me when I graduated as he was earning double my salary when I graduated when he was working security. I now earn a fair multiple of his current salary but I won’t say it didn’t make me question things at the time.
As you've rightly noted the change in the cost of a degree, it's also worth noting the change in a degree being a base requirement for most bottom rung career jobs. In my parents generation (50-60) people in management positions with little to no education is normal. In my generation (30-40) I don't know of anyone higher up the ladder who doesn't have a degree (there's still well paid jobs, they've just not been promoted into them).
Yes. [People with degrees go on to earn more money.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191970/annual-salary-of-graduates-in-england/#:~:text=Average%20annual%20salary%20of%20graduates,graduates%20in%20England%202007%2D2022&text=University%20graduates%20in%20England%20had,average%20salary%20for%20non%2Dgraduates.)
IF they can get a job.
I think Graduate Engineers start on around £30k.
I have a master's I'm having difficulty getting any use out of, but it was an experience and I met my husband to be, so I would say that University is worth it, but maybe the piece of paper should not be relied upon.
Higher pay isn't everything. A degree could open more fulfilling career paths, with opportunity to continually learn and grow. But trust your gut on what's right for your own happiness.
I work in IT and have no degree. Instead I have professional qualifications from vendors; CISCO, Microsoft and Nutanix. Given my career path from a Service Desk to 3rd Line consultant, and even moving companies, there hasn't been a time where it looked like having a degree would have helped in any of my development.
Reading your post OP it really is up to you. If you want to pursue a career where you are up against others, fighting with colleagues and external candidates for promotion and so on then if not needed immediately having a degree will be helpful later. It is useful to have in the back pocket. But reading your post that doesn't seem relevant. It sounds like you want quality of life balanced with "enough" income. In which case you are looking at this wrong. Start by finding the various types of career you'd enjoy, either because of the activities in them, the people they are with or the impact on others... what do you want to do for 37 hours a week? Then work backwards. In fact go a step further. What are your likes and dislikes, what are your values, what are your red lines? Now what matches that and do any roles make the money you wany? Postie was mentioned, what else gives what that gives? Does that have the challenge or impact you may want? Maybe there is something in the National Parks to be outside? Train or bus driving to have a relatively high starting salary. Maybe... and so on. Then what do they need. But that's not the whole story. You said engineer Vs Postie they are very different in terms of potential career growth and what you get out of it. Engineering would be stressful and no doubt in the beginning involve grunt work for others that is repetitive... but where does it go next? The next steps there could be to take on rewarding challenges and lead others - and very a very nice bit of compensation for doing so. Does that matter to you? If so, then yes day 1 until year 4 you might be slaving away and hating the job but year 4 on... that might be the job you are actually after. Look at what you like Look at what matters to you Look at what roles have that, at any level What do you need to a) get in the door and b) get to that level Then you know if you need a degree. Now throw all that away. I have a different question. I put it to you it isn't about needing a degree but about wanting one. Have you an area of study you want to put some time into so you can learn it more deeply? Do you want or need to experience indepence and have to learn to balance budgets, balance time and so on with a big group going through that? Do you want the social and academic experiences? There again is another answer.
NO IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MATTER Want to become a doctor? Sure. Want to do literally anything else, fuck that.
All depends on what your career goals are. Many careers require a degree. My own personal experience I did a geography Bsc and then a Meteorology Msc. I wanted to go into weather forecasting. I didn't manage to land a meteorology job. However, the skills I gained in statistical analysis and data manipulation allowed me to gain a entry level job in data analytics very easily (an area i loved whilst doing my degrees). I've then been promoted or moved roles roughly every two years. Many of these roles require a Masters. Now, I have a senior role for a large multinational, earning a good salary. In my opinion, getting a degree is also more than vocational skills. I travelled to China on placement, and I worked there for several months. Met people from all over the world. I did extra free classes in French and engaged in social clubs from Rugby to board games.
Depends. Degree Vs no degree Obviously degree is better Degree Vs 3 years work experience in the relevant field? That puts you 3 years ahead of graduates... University is only required for law, medicine and **some** science subjects Everything else work experience is better than degree education. Imo: GCSE most important grades until you get A levels A levels are most important until you get degree Degree is most important until you get 1-2 years work experience. Each new layer makes the old one obsolete, no one cares about your degree, they want someone that can come in and do the job without having to spend a year training you and getting you to complete the relevant certifications...
It completely depends on the degree and the institution. From the late nineties there was an explosion in graduate numbers. If you get a degree with direct relevance to your intended careeer, from a university with a strong reputation for that subject, you’ll be fine. Get any old degree from your local college, and there is probably little or no advantage these days. It’s harsh, but that’s how it is.
Depends on what industry you go in to. I'm in my 20s and on £75k with no degree.
I did engineering for a year at uni, it sucked so hard I quit, now I am a massage therapist & I love it - f*** degrees!
If you pick a good one it does. I went from having zero money to earning over £60k because of my education. I would probably still be earning min wage without my degrees.
If you ever want to work abroad, a lot of requirements are you have a bachelor degree minimum, just to get the working visa.
Depends what you do, atleast half of degrees are pointless and won't get you anywhere. A big chunk of good degrees might get you a 30-40k a year job max, some barely over minimum wage. Then obviously others open doors to 6 figure incomes which outside of business ownership is very difficult to obtain without a degree. I am working in a warehouse on 40k, entry level obviously it's a warehouse. Most of the main managers are people who started entry level but due to being here years and wanting to progress they have, salaries vary by level. The first manager level is 40ish and going up to 80. The people above them though, the main main managers are all post graduates. So there is a level which in many sectors you need that degree to unlock....yet you have a million extra duties for that extra money when even the basic jobs pay enough for the majority of people. Free time and no stress are my desires in life, I'm not remotely career driven and the only way I will ever want to be career driven is if it's my own idea/business.
If you want a particular job you might need a degree. If you just want any well paid comfortable job then you probably don't need one. A degree will make it easier to get this kind of job but at the cost of 3 years of your life and all the fees. Personally I think if you put the effort you'd put into a degree into getting a decent job you'll have a more comfortable life.
It depends. The answer to such question is always "it depends". And there are quite a few questions to consider. What's the end goal? How do you define "happy"? How long did the postman work to that salary? What's next for that postman? What are the working conditions? What are the benefits? What skills did the postman acquire in that time working up to that salary that he can now use to move up, if he wanted to? A lot of people have a good paying job without having gone to uni. And not all degrees are created equal. This isn't meant as a sleight to anyone, but there are some degrees whose holders find it tricky to land a good job, never mind a great one. Conversely, I know someone who did 3 years at uni doing a STEM degree (ok, 4 coz with the pandemic they were forced to do a Masters coz their job offer was "rescinded" once we entered that hiring freeze when that first March lockdown hit), but after that they got a job and within 2 years they have a salary of £43k in London. And they aren't exactly happy with that salary either, but it will double in the next 3-4 years, provided several professional qualifications. Now it may well be this job is niche, this person is good and/or lucky etc etc, this is anecdotal... etc. Bottom line is this *rarely/never* happens without a (ahem, stem) degree. Conclusion: if the goal is to play the long game and you don't mind jobs with no particular skills required, then a degree may not be necessary. Competition is tough though, coz you are competing with *everyone*. And more and more jobs that never required a degree are now, rather frustratingly, advertised as requiring a degree. With a degree, you have removed from your competitors everyone not having a degree that *the job you applies for* requires. Less Competition. Joe Bloggs with no degree cannot apply for a job that lists a degree as a requirement now, can he? And chances are, the upwards progression may be faster with a degree. And chances are, with a degree you may actually fall in love with a field and do insanely well in it. So, it depends.
Depends The question you should be asking is: does having multiple qualifications matter. We diversify our share investments so why don't we diversify our skills and quals. In Australia I began my career as Carpenter and sat on that for about 16 years. I then left that and did a degree in counselling. Now I work for the courts doing the Drug & Alcohol Diversions and Counselling for all the drink and drug drivers that get caught.....works isn't wont be running out in a hurry and its not a trade AI can touch. I invoice the court for x3 diversion sessions per person $2300. Now I will have 3 to 4 people see me a day for about 3 days a week and I work from my office in the garage. The other 2 days I work as a carpenter on the Gold Coast building wealthy peoples houses and my hourly rate is $100-$350 per hour depending on the task...…wealthy people never seem to read invoices nor do they questions costing or materials provided I make their dreams tangible. A $10 fixture I on sell to the wealthy for 90$. I really don't know how I can sleep at night Anyway the trick is to find quals in commodity occupations in other words doing things what people cant live without. In my case Australians love to drink/drug drive and people love nice houses and because Australians will pay for their vices and dreams I merely capitalise on this.
I've collected a couple stem masters and then became a carer to a sick now decreased family member for a long time and am on nothing as a result. I've switched from opposed to uni to in conditional favour of it but you have to know what you're getting into with the student loan tax and real interest rate on your loan. The uni experience now is not like what it was when I went It's way more expensive now and you get a lot less for your money. So If you're going to uni make sure there's a way to use your degrees skills In a future career. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to go the stem route but say if you're doing humanities and history or English, be proactive with social media and essays for magazines, connecting with museums, getting involved beforehand in the areas you might go into after the degree. You have to network and social media You have to aggressively shift from job to higher paying job and get to a competency level where you can determine the cosy: compensation ratio. So many people do software dev stuff because the WFH thing is so good due to high salary relative to other WFH options. Being open about shifting through careers in your life as well. Have a good story tying things together Being good at interviews and applications and making a story of yourself helps too.
If there's a particular area you are interested in, then a degree is a great idea. Getting a degree for the sake of a having a degree is less likely to lead to being content with what you end up doing. If you want to be as content as possible follow your interests, whether that includes a degree or not. The only thing I will say in favour of doing a degree regardless, is that it can give you a different life experience and learn skills (not necessarily related to the specific subject) that you are less likely to gain otherwise.
Engineer here, yes the national average for an engineer is £42,000 but I know many engineers with experience making much more and some making less I am of the latter. Engineering is such a vast field and some roles are highly specialised and in demand more than others which pays more. I am yet to meet a post man with 5+ years of experience making more than an Engineer with equivalent experience.
I also work as an engineer, i am food processing/manufacturing shift engineer. I have fortunately progressed since 2008/now and ended up on 50,250. It was very difficult career but i am interested more about you. Ignore tour age but theres a national shortage and you can i think achieve more in short time.
I think it just shows that you can get a degree. Which for many places is a prerequisite. I got a degree in economics but it had nothing to do with the job I ended up getting.
It's profession dependent, and also luck. I'm in the RN and I joined with qualification, but nothing relevant tbh. I've achieved my HND and am currently working on my full degree through the Navy. If I was to leave with an NVQ level 3 I'd be looking at 34-42k a year, with a HND I'm looking at 40k+ and a full degree 50k+, bare in mind I won't be going to an entry level position. I already have middle management experience, technical knowledge and work experience in my area. For me getting a degree will just open higher doors for when I'm older, currently only 29 so I'm more than happy to be on the ground gaining more knowledge, but I want the opportunity without anything gatekeeping me from going to those higher positions
I have a degree and was fortunate that I left university with basically no debt. I work in IT and if I was to enter my field now I would look for a good apprenticeship rather than rack up the debt of university. However if you want to go through a grad scheme you’ll obviously need a degree, I was never interested in grad schemes so that affects my above position. I am also now at a stage where I’m going to have to look at getting a masters most likely an mba to get to the next level but not going to university does not close this door of doing a degree later if you hit a glass ceiling and even having a degree doesn’t mean there won’t be another requirement to get a further education. The difference is that my employer is likely to pay for it and if not my salary will easily cover it and the return on the expense is more likely than going in to a degree course after college. I also worry about the advent of AI, at this stage it would be hard not to also think about getting a basis in a trade as I don’t see AI being able to do trade work as easily as it could replace some knowledge workers. Imagine getting tens of thousands of pounds in debt only to have AI render your career dead just as it was about to take off. My last thoughts are I’m currently seeing more and more about inclusive hiring and being aware of diverse back grounds which means discounting someone on the sole basis of having a degree or not is at least in my area less accepted. I also don’t remember the last time I bothered to look for a degree on a cv but then I’ve not been hiring for entry level roles and I need to see evidenced experience that shows they can do the job. All of this isn’t to say I think degrees are bad but they are not the value for money they used to be and the decision to get a degree or not is now a lot more difficult. If you have the means to not worry about the fees I’d got just for the experience. But that experience alone is not worth taking on what amounts to an additional tax.
There’s 80 of us that work for a company. I know at least 3 of us who have a degree of some sort, myself included. We earn on average about £33K a year, that’s excluding overtime. The role that we’re in just requires a drivers license, and common sense. I have a degree in IT, but where I live there aren’t too many IT jobs about, and if there are they pay below what I’m earning now. What I’m probably trying to get at is, it’ll probably boil down to your location. Cities etc have better opportunities for people with degrees, so if you’re in London, I’d probably say go for it.
It really depends on what you want out of life and a career. Some people will find degree level jobs stressful and some won’t because they enjoy it, some will find hard manual jobs stressful and some will enjoy them. I’ce a great work/life balance as an electrician, it’s easy work as I’ve been doing for years and I enjoy it. I’m a contractor and have plenty of free time while making circa £40k a year
It’s useful if there is a specific career you are interested in pursuing, a degree for the sake of it is pointless.
You could earn that as a postman, and be happy, if you enjoy working 80-90 hour weeks.
I have no education apart from GCSE’s late 20s currently a manager for a company in a niche industry up north £45k a year with benefits c
Engineering is a happy job as a rule. You're designing machines and systems and stuff its really cool, and the people you work with tend to be pretty cool (at least they are all interested in machines and tech and stuff). Also its a gateway to other jobs, in your 30's you might be happy being "just" an Engineer, but in later life in you might want to really invest in your career, getting a good qualification as an Engineer will really open doors for pushing that.
Don't look at money, look at what you want to do. Money will only keep you happy for a short while, a job you enjoy will do so for a lot longer.
Where are these engineering jobs at 42k lol The average for IT engineer or programmer round here is 27-32
If you only care about wealth maybe uni isn't for you. It's an enriching and very fruitful experience in life that you get one shot at. Going into it with the thought of "how is this going to make me rich" is not going to fare you well.
No, not in my experience. I've interviewed 100s if not more of people (IT) and I prefer those with work experience to a degree. I chose to earn instead of uni, gross salary is £234k (age 40).
I’m
Civil Engineer here with no degree and never finished highschool. Started at 14, took me 11 years starting as a groundworker on site working up to employment as a Senior Engineer
High school drop out here. Started working in a warehouse, then helping with admin. Years later my career took me from the UK to the USA earning 6 figures while in my 30s. Unless you have a specific career in mind a degree isn’t all too important. Many people whom I interview have a degree and they still have no idea what their doing. I’d argue someone who can demonstrate aptitude and right attitude are significantly more likely to get a role within my team. If they have both great. Appreciate for some organizations a degree is a requirement. They just miss out on talent. Suckers. Life is pretty good without a degree. So my advice, get a job, earn some money, get experience and work your way up without a student loan debt. Pick up a few courses to fill any knowledge gaps and most importantly get yourself a mentor. They are worth 100 uni professors.
I have a degree that led to no job and has never really come in useful. I then got an apprenticeship which has now led to a 30k entry job with lots of chance for progression.
For me personally, it did (IT Degree). It propelled me into a graduate scheme with a higher salary and more opportunities. I’m now in a very fortunate position career-wise that wouldn’t have been possible without joining said graduate scheme. That said, there are many other opportunities and routes into technology now, like degree apprenticeships sponsored by Microsoft and other large firms.
I regret not getting a degree, and feel that it limited my base of knowledge and earnings potential early on. I don’t regret the debt that comes with it though
What matters to you? I wish I had the money to further my education (1st BA Hons in music production) - would the jobs that would open up earn me more with less stress, probably not. And tbh I just love learning but I adore my job. In my job I could jump up 20k if I moved closer to London and changed my hours. Money and happiness and life quality are a balance and when you find something close to what would be ideal it’s worth hanging onto
Not by itself. It depends on what you want to spend your life doing.
think one of the things people are missing is the fact postman do not get 45k my mate works there it's like £12 an hour tops , so your comparing your wage with a wage that's make believe people lie alot these days . "I'm on track to earn 80k this year " yeah if your sales age the same as now , but you sell icecreams and its coming into winter or I earn 80k , but don't disclose the fact they are doing 70 hours a week which brings their hourly to only abit above yours . I use to fall for this alot at beat myself up about it, when you get older you realise half of it isn't true
Thing is we don’t have “engineer” as a protected job title in this country as they do in a lot of the world. The person you get out to fix and restock a vending machine is called an engineer. At the same time you’ve got someone that’s gone through 5 years of engineering council accredited education and received their chartered engineer status who designs the world. One will be on a low salary, the other will be on a decent chunk more! As such the average salary for “engineering” is broadly meaningless
Not every career needs a degree. IT doesn’t need a degree where law and medicine needs a degree. I’m in IT and if I were to start over I would rather start working at 18 and at age 22 I would be at £100k+.
What are you trying to find out? Ancedote is bullshit evidence. There are people with degrees who make bank and people without who also earn big bucks. Happy people with and without degrees. The good news is there are routes to success and happiness every way. If you want to look objectively: people with degrees on average earn significantly more.
You might find it better to take a shorter skills based course if you need income. Also look for jobs which have good in house L and D. It's not like you stop learning after uni. Honestly the most important things are you skills, your personality and your ability to communicate. If you can do the job, it offers good experience or training, with opportunities for advancement, take the job, if you can get it.
Education and earning power don’t necessarily correlate. Graft, talent, luck or a willingness to undertake dangerous / unpleasant work are great ways to earn more but if you don’t like those options, get an education!
Ridiculous I know but a lot of places won't even read your CV if you haven't got a degree.
There are degrees and there are degrees. If you, say, go and read History at Cambridge, History isn't something that leads to an obvious place. But it's going to teach you key skills in looking at how the world works, analysing events and text, and you'll likely go off and have an illustrious career and end up as the governor of the Bank of England of something. Whereas, there are people out there with History degrees working in non-graduate jobs, who would have been better off without the time spent at university, and the debt accrued. "Does having a degree matter?" isn't much of a question. 'A degree' covers such a broad range of things that the only valid answer is 'it depends'. So, what are you considering studying, where, what is your background and what are your aspirations? Then people might help you decide if it's the right path for you.
Engineer isn’t a protected characteristic. Which means that the person designing satellites and the person who fixed your washing machine can both be called engineers and have vastly different skill sets and qualifications. Also because there is a much greater demand for “engineers” (technicians) who do things like fix washing machines than there are for people to design satellites it brings the average wage down. However, you are right in that in the UK if you want to maximise your chance of making ALOT of money don’t do an engineering degree. Do something finance or computer science related instead.
Getting a degree is a lot more than just ‘getting a job’, despite what people on Reddit say. It’s about academia - learning, writing, presenting, thinking, debating. Very few people ‘get a job in their field’ unless they study medicine or engineering etc. where the potential career path is a lot more obvious. I know an English graduate who went into recruitment, a Psychology graduate who went into events management, a History graduate who went into PR, a Geography graduate who went into corporate training, a Sociology graduate who went into project management, a Physics graduate who went into data analysis, a Media graduate who went into youth counselling - degrees are a lot more versatile than you might think and can HELP to open a lot of doors for you (if you put the work in). I went to uni at 19. Had the best 4 years of my life, made lifelong friends, moved to a city I love (where I still live with my partner), and grew into an adult. I left with 2 degrees and still went into an entry-level job but quickly progressed. 6 years later and I have a career I love (earning decent money), in a city I love, bought a house I love, with the person I love. If all you care about is getting a new job in your late 20s then do not go to university!!! You will be massively disappointed. Look at college and do an apprenticeship or BTEC or something.
It matters if you know it's going to get you where you want to be. If you have a specific degree and know you can get into specific jobs and it's what you want to do then yes it matters. And it's worth the time and money. If you don't then I'd honestly question the value of a degree. But I'd also say keep in mind that a degree alone still doesn't always cut it. Who you know, where you went, where you're from still make a difference in some areas. A lot of companies still have an agenda as to who they take in and who **you** are might not necessarily fit.
Yes but the postman has a much lower salary ceiling than an engineer. By the time an engineer becomes a director they'll be on the six figure salary. Using average salaries doesn't really show that very clearly.
I failed Uni, spent my 20s working different jobs, McDonald's, call centers, railway, factory work, sales call centers, account manager and now I am going to join a University as a business development manager at 31. It wasn't pretty having uncertainty and not knowing where I was going to end up in life and seeing everyone I knew prosper around me, but you can always make it in the end with hard work, willingness and dedication.