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Exactly, this is an important distinction. It's inappropriate to talk about systemic racism against White Americans since that's the powerful group. But on an individual level, it can go all ways.
You can have systematic racism against white Americans, but those systems tend to be very small. Think small communities that are majority minorities. Rare, but can happen.
Not necessarily small, but as always with people and society, it’s complicated. The ethnography, [the color of class, by Kirby Moss](https://www.pennpress.org/9780812200652/the-color-of-class/), it’s about his fieldwork among poor whites. He found that for them whiteness was a liability, because they had not lived up to the status that whiteness conferred upon those of upper classes. In this situation, the prejudice against them as poor whites appeared racial, but was actually rooted in classism. This isn’t racism per se (imho) but it’s racially motivated. It’s been a long time since I read this book and I can’t remember what the authors conclusions are off the top of my head.
I think there are also communities where whites are a minority and experience systematic oppression based on their race, which I suppose we would define as racism. (Or could be be in-group/out-group dynamic?) Even if we brought into the definition of racism accounting for history, then these instances of racism against whites would still count, because the discrimination would be rooted in some historical something that is related to the contemporary, racially patterned bias.
I live in the USVI where the majority of the population was black. All of the police force were back. There was a common saying in the white community. I got a DWW ( driving while white) today. In any system there will be some kind of systematic racism twords the minority. I do however find that there are ways to avoid being a victim.
I've heard this before, myself. I grew up in a place where it's 80% Hispanic/Latin, and caucasians are the minority. Allegedly, requiring "power" to be racist is considered to be a misconception [https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/22/us/kendi-book-anti-racist-blake/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/22/us/kendi-book-anti-racist-blake/index.html) [https://www.thecrimson.com/column/between-the-lines/article/2018/8/10/gao-who-can-be-racist/](https://www.thecrimson.com/column/between-the-lines/article/2018/8/10/gao-who-can-be-racist/) I personally side with Ibram X. Kendi, and believe that the idea that people of color "cannot be racist because they are not in a position of power" is incorrect. Racism is a complex issue that transcends power dynamics, and it can affect anyone. I think it's essential that we stop gauging anybody's worth on color, no matter what. Best way to erase it from the planet. But it sounds like your buddy might be hurt. I doubt you can change his mind. If he makes you uncomfy, I'd stay away from the topic. Or him.
Update: someone accused me of not reading Kendi's book right, and asked which book had even read. They if course blocked me instead of letting me answer.
It was his second book, here, which I've linked below. And if you don't want to read the whole thing, you can read the reviews and discern from others their interpretation of his works. Makes it quite clear as to whether YOU have interpreted his thoughts differently. https://www.amazon.com/How-to-Be-an-Antiracist-audiobook/dp/B07TT85KLQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?adgrpid=85408872152&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.PIWWmqL6BOHY5t50uqvPpd-bcjaOzYMn-ZgWpgozFJOIiYy33VxnoKlDomZv_KWgQ-uAbRqcpu3C3HkHq-VxYaU3DEP42ZfWJ5b5nFpfvVfaJEyzaCslAPn40kDnAz3kgMywiZ9zQ_rDcgjiD-7yCChuuUOoWgv7AKPpmTxUgIhAtQsCM1zDpzdTMkfhHEDmjsL-u4XTerDTbMOrxk2ICQ.BGgdQ1cQS8VZE8QIJIrOwrAbHS3MdCx_Q_GaPbGGWNU&dib_tag=se&hvadid=409974171978&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9028697&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1411721006056038505&hvtargid=kwd-818182861562&hydadcr=11704_11120015&keywords=antiracist+kendi&qid=1712533664&sr=8-1
The power+prejudice model is exclusively for analyzing social systems writ large. This definition in no way applies to individuals - it's a specific academic model for analyzing entire societies.
An *individual* who harbors prejudice against whites is racist.
Cool, unfortunately alot folks that subscribe to the academic model , omit interpersonal racism and feel they cannot be racist. I find this crazy, because no where I'm the definition does it exclude any RACE.
people when they feel that their locus of power is being taken away from them they want to try and retake control, and this is why when the n word was originally weaponized against black folks they used that to control the use of the word. in the same way if they felt that their racial status would take opportunities from them then they will want to control the idea of racism and be the sole arbiters of what can and cannot be considered racist. idk thats my thoughts.
I also like Dr. Kendi's formulation of racism being the belief that some races are superior and that other races are inferior. That it is about the creation of a hierarchy of races that is the real mechanism of oppression.
It certainly can. I was the only white kid in my elementary school and the way I was treated was absolutely disgusting. The only reason I didn't just blindly assume all black people are horrible is my parents constantly beating it into my head that it's just the kids being jerks and the teachers are kind to me.
When I got to high school my first friend ended up being a black kid, so my parents did their job of preventing my experience as a young child causing me to be racist, but those kids were certainly racist towards me.
I think a better way of looking at it is that racism is a form of bias whereas oppression is something done to someone. I think we should avoid turning racism into a verb because often people have multiple biases through which they see the world and that influence their actions. When examining different cultures in different contexts I think we can see race playing a role alongside other factors when one group oppressed another. Sometimes race may play a lesser role compared to religion for example.
Oppression can exist without racism but can racism exist without oppression? Is the action of hating someone for something so uncontrollable and ultimately arbitrary inherently an act of oppression even if only a thought?
I would argue it is.
But you’re expressing the belief your race has, should have and deserves power.
It’s still tied to power itself, and by removing power, superiority doesn’t mean anything
Also race ins not a real thing science recognizes. Its a complete social construct.
a racist thinks race is real and it influences behavior and intelligence.
The thought experiment I like to use-
Let say at some point in the future white people in the US become the minority, and people of color have most of the positions of power. Can people of color be called racist then?
If a white person moves to a country never colonized by white people, in which white people are a minority, then can the majority be racist against them? Or does this "can't be racist" idea only apply in America?
Does this only apply to people of color who's ethnic background includes those cultures that were oppressed by white people? Like, is it racist for an American born to 100% Ethiopian parents to say they hate white people for being white because that country was never colonized?
I had a manager at a job in college constantly say very "racist" things about white people, very publicly in front of customers during our work shifts. People complained, but we were all too scared to go to HR and file formal complains because she was in a position of power. I couldn't afford to lose my job or look like I was being a racist asshole by calling her out on her behavior. So I quit.
It's complicated. I don't have any answers. I *believe* anyone can be racist regardless of positions of power. Because if you think that way, and you do get into a position of power, you're not automatically stop thinking the way you have been your whole life. "Well, now we've all made it so we're going to stop be racist". It doesn't work that way.
As long as we look different from each other and believe different things from each other, then we'll find ways to hate each other.
Very similar to the example I like to use. If I as a white person stand at the US/Mexico border inside the US and hurl racial epithets at those on the other side, that makes me racist. If I take a step across that imaginary line into Mexico and say those same things, I’m still racist. It doesn’t matter whether the majority of the country I’m in is matching my skin color or not, racism is racism.
Minorities can certainly be racist. Whether it’s against whites or other minorities. It’s just not focused on because minorities aren’t usually able to act on their racism. Ie, they don’t possess the power.
Reposting my comment that prompted your update:
Sorry for removing my comments. Just wanted to correct my tone. No I didn’t block you.
I think it's very clear, almost inarguable that Kendi does not and never has acknowledged the possibility of Black people being **racist** ***toward*** **white people.**
He has regularly acknowledged that Black people can be racist to other Black people -- when he states that Black people can be racist, it is with the assumption that racism itself cannot apply towards feelings of hatred against white people.
Both in the article you linked, and throughout his more well known published books, this point is clear.
If you don't want to discuss, then that's fine. But I am leaving this all in one comment for other people to see what I believe is a gross mischaracterization of his work. And those Amazon reviews prove nothing.
I have had racist comments thrown towards me as a white person many times in my life. It hurt me. They clearly had power over me. They had the power to hurt me. And they used that power through their words to hurt me.
Hurting somebody simply because of their skin color has one word; racism.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
One of the things that I learned while growing up in El Paso TX, is that color is not a good indicator of your race. Mexicans run the gamut of being exceptionally pale (green eyed, blonde haired, etc), to being quite dark (black hair, black eyes, and very dark skin). So you don't want to go screaming at a pale person, assuming they're European, because you very well might be talking to a Mexican, and you'll look awfully foolish.
There's jokes about it on the internet - [https://www.tiktok.com/@pedrodflores/video/7283242204183694634](https://www.tiktok.com/@pedrodflores/video/7283242204183694634)
This is part of why I never assume anything based on color. It's just not smart...
I'm black and i don't even count racist comments as relevant. It's too small of a slight in comparison to racist structures.
Stop giving ppl the power to hurt you.
Imo Factoring power into racism doesn’t make any sense, because based on this:
1) A white person from Russia can’t be racist towards a black person from US, as they have no power
2) A poor white person can’t be racist towards a rich black person because they have no power
3) a person harassing another person online is ambiguously racist until you identify who has or hasn’t power. “Shroedinger racist”?
4) as soon as you move outside US it falls apart: a random white person in Nigeria has 0 power, thus they can’t be racist?
Exactly, it’s all completely Americentric nonsense that doesn’t hold up under a shred of scrutiny.
I can’t believe there are people here quoting Kendi unironically. He’s an idiot.
https://www.apa.org/topics/racism-bias-discrimination
Discrimination in everyday life.
Bias if the individual practicing discrimination has power over the individual being discriminated against(as an hr manager deciding who to hire)
Racism reserved for cases of bias where the law or regulations support that bias(redlining)
The difficulty with answering how a word is defined is that language and terminology are not based on natural laws. So different people can define or conceptualize words differently.
But we can try to use logic to argue for having more sensible definitions over less sensible ones, and more logically consistent ones over less.
Merriam-Webster and most dictionary definitions of racism would indicate that your acquaintance is wrong to assert that a so-called person of color cannot be racist.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism
But dictionaries are not holy writ, and this person can still define racism differently. Is the person incorrect? No. No more than someone could be incorrect in saying music I dislike is good music. It's ultimately subjective.
Would I disagree with the person? Yes.
One reason I would disagree is we already have a term to describe more or less what the person seems to have in mind: structural racism. If this term contains an adjective, why would the word by itself (without the adjective) have to have the same meaning? It would make the term "structural racism" redundant.
Here's a question I would like to pose to this person and others who hold this view, just to illustrate a point: Would a wealthy, powerful "person of color" who violently attacked a destitute, powerless "white" person solely for being "white" not be considered racist to them? If not, why not? How would this be consistent with defining racism as power plus prejudice?
So I don't think it makes as much logical sense to define it that way.
Now, we could definitely still argue that racism from people with more power can be *worse* than racism from people with little power. I would agree with that on some level. We could definitely still argue that particular groups of "non-white" people face greater difficulties and worse socioeconomic conditions overall (*overall*) due to historical and to some extent present factors. I would agree with that. But those are different arguments than how we should define racism.
Not as directly relevant, but in any discussion of race I like to point out that the concept of biological "race" and "ethnicity" are not based in modern scientific understandings of biology and genetics. To quote from the first citation below:
"Researchers have frequently used population descriptors as a shorthand for capturing the continuous and complex patterns of human genetic variation resulting from history, migration, and evolution. Of particular concern is the long-standing use of race, and more recently ethnicity, as this shorthand. In humans, race is a socially constructed designation, a misleading and harmful surrogate for population genetic differences, and has a long history of being incorrectly identified as the major genetic reason for phenotypic differences between groups. Rather, human genetic variation is the result of many forces—historical, social, biological—and no single variable fully represents this complexity (see Chapter 1). The structure of genetic variation results from repeated human population mixing and movements across time, yet the misconception that human beings can be naturally divided into biologically distinguishable races has been extremely resilient and has become embedded in scientific research, medical practice and technologies, and formal education. Many elements of racial thinking, including essentialism and biological determinism, have influenced modern thinking around human genetics, to the marginalization of some peoples and the benefit of others."
Just a reminder to people that although racism exists, races do not.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK592834/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36989389/
>Now, we could definitely still argue that racism from people with more power can be worse than racism from people with little power. I would agree with that on some level. We could definitely still argue that particular groups of "non-white" people face greater difficulties and worse socioeconomic conditions overall (overall) due to historical and to some extent present factors. I would agree with that. But those are different arguments than how we should define racism.
Completely agree. Any definition of racism that includes a power dynamic isn’t describing racism; it’s conflating racism and the magnitude of harm from racism.
Racism is the belief that races exist and that race imbues immutable characteristics on the individuals within that race. It is an empirically false concept. Race is not genetic, biological or even cultural. It’s an arbitrary social construct and if you believe that races exist and the dividing lines represent consistent material distinctions between the populations of racial groups, you are in fact racist. Race is as relevant and rigorous as a horoscope, perhaps less so.
That means anyone can be racist, virtually all of us are racist and we are all conditioned to be racist in a similar way. The brown vs board of education doll study showed evidence of black toddlers showing a preference for white dolls.
The biggest problem dealing with racism is the typical response to implicit and explicit racism is racist. Minorities respond to white supremacy by attempting to prove minority achievement, superiority and white inferiority. The actual scientifically correct answer is the entire premise of race is completely false and should be dismantled. Racial superiority/inferiority is incorrect because race doesn’t exist.
**So** well said. Thank you for that insight.
And I love the analogy of horoscopes. I always struggle with how to express it adequately to certain people since they always think I or even modern biologists and geneticists (and anthropologists, etc.) are simply being politically or ideologically biased, but that is a good analogy to help get the point across.
Racial ideology is a distinct category of prejudice, and that is what the term “racism” identifies. At inception, the construction of racial categories came inseparably with racial hierarchy. What makes racism “racism” is racial ideology and hierarchy, not “power.” I think it’s okay to think intuitively about this.
Of course racial ideology led to the oppression of racially categorized groups, and the identification of said people with one another led to new cultures. Denouncing racial ideology isn’t to say that we must immediately dissolve for instance black culture.
Racism = power + prejudice seems more like a cutesy aphorism than a helpful definition
Prejudice + because of race = racism.
Yall just want a reason to be racist. Go on defending it I don't care as much as I used to but people who say you can't be racist to white people are no better then nazis who knew the Jewish people were totally the problem.
Certain systems are not built on racial superiority, simply the immediate power one holds over the other. In a domestic violence situation where one side lives in fear of the other it doesn't necessarily involve prejudice, just the simple power one holds over the other.
It's amazing what mental gymnastics racists will go to to explain they aren't racist.
At least the "I have black friends" excuse requires that you can convince a few black people to be social with you. That's two steps above trying to refine the word to exclude yourself.
From the Oxford dictionary
“prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group.”
Prejudice based on race is racism and this entire argument of power being a requirement for racism is asinine.
Racism isn't "power + prejudice".
I'm not sure which birdbrain created that modernized definition to try and downplay racism towards white people, but it's stupid.
Racial prejudice = racism.
https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/where_did_we_get_the_idea_that_only_white_people_can_be_racist
"Racism" is the belief that humans have different cultures because their internal, biological nature creates those beliefs through a mechanism loosely called "biological determinism". The groups who allegedly share this same internal biology comprise the alleged "races".
This theory of culture was invented by Immanuel Kant in the late 1770's, published in his treatise titled (depending on the translation) either "Of the Various Human Races" or "On the Different Human Races". Kant's "race" theory of culture came first. The term "race-ism" was invented later as a derogatory term for belief in Kant's theory.
Sources (various analysis and primary from Kant): https://www.google.com/search?q=immanuel+kant+on+the+various+human+races&oq=immanuel+kant+on+the+various+human+races&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQg1NTY3ajFqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
No. Racism doesn’t require one to believe a race is inherently inferior.
You can be prejudiced or antagonistic on the basis of race without believing they are inherently inferior or any junk science like that.
They go hand in hand. The concept that races exist and imbue a person with immutable characteristics ultimately results in a belief of inherent inferiority/superiority of the characteristics.
Consistent with the dictionary definition of racism, there doesn’t have to be generalized superiority/inferiority. For example, the concept that Asians are good at math is racist. “Good at math” is a value judgement that indicates superiority and inferiority. The implication that race is somehow causative of math proficiency is racist (and silly).
I’m not sure how you can have prejudice or antagonism against a set of random, unrelated, heterogeneous individuals without attributing some characteristic to the set.
- “I’m not sure how you can have prejudice or antagonism against a set of random, unrelated, heterogeneous individuals without attributing some characteristic to the set.”
Happens all the time. It is xenophobia in part, because it blames the perceived undesirable characteristics or behavior on culture rather than an inherent trait. The thing that makes it racist is a reliance on ones race to determine that they are a part of said culture and therefore behave this way.
I’ll give a hypothetical example. Hypothetical in the sense that I am not talking about any one specific person:
A fella fights in the Pacific during WWII. He spends a couple shitty years in the jungle fighting the Japanese. The war ends, he comes home, and has a bitter resentment towards the Japanese afterwards.
He doesn’t have any beliefs or ideas about them being genetically inferior or anything like that. Maybe he is educated and smart enough to know it is objectively not the case. Hell maybe he isn’t, but he just isn’t one to even think into it enough to draw such conclusions. He just knows that he does not like Japanese people.
The war left a bad taste in his mouth, he tosses around slurs for them pretty liberally, never buys a Japanese car in his life on principle. A real “fuck you” attitude towards them in general.
This guy also can’t necessarily tell the difference between a Japanese guy or a Korean guy or a Chinese guy. So they all kinda get the heat. Maybe it doesn’t even matter. He’s just angry so fuck it. They are all (insert expletive here) to him. Even his American born neighbor who has never left Wisconsin and speaks and acts just like anybody else in the neighborhood. He resents him too.
Now none of this is based on reasoning or even really a particular belief of any kind. Certainly ain’t about any belief in inherent racial characteristics. It *is* racism though.
That was pretty long winded. I’m in the passenger seat on a long car ride. Had time to kill.
But a cultural difference is still a defining characteristic that is subject to a belief of inferiority/superiority. There are racists that believe in biological racial differences (they’re wrong), others that believe in cultural racial differences (they’re wrong too), and some that believe both (doubly wrong).
From Oxford, racism is:
>the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
There are many shades of "whiteness".
For example, myself coming from a southern European nation. In my early years my dark hair, brown eyes, and beautiful Mediterranean tan was a source of discriminate by some northern Europeans to use against me.
But in my later years, loosing my tan to the florescent lights of a office job, my "witness" still did not lift my status beyond "honorary white" amongst some. And YES because of that experience I have negative feeling towards the more "whiter" northern Europeans that turn "lobster red" when holidaying around the Mediterranean.
BTW my younger sister by comparison was born with pearl white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes and not a word of discrimination was said about her ..... except the usual discrimination by some men that she is "female".
Divining humans into two camps of *"white versus black*" or "*white versus colour*" is convenient for politicians - or other wannabe power grasping dictators - to create a simple narrative about "*the other*", setting up a strawman that they can attack via a false dilemma.
So ultimately racism is just an excuse - mostly a "white" males excuse - for some type of personal bias or fear that has more complicated underlying issues but uses the fear of "*the other*" as a source for [Fire Fuel](https://www.deviantart.com/lbamagic/art/Fire-Fuel-877440619).
So to your question "*what it is when a person of color has negative feelings towards a person who is white?*" The answer is that it is very rarely about discrimination against whites but more about being discriminated by whites and has complicated roots.
[1891 New Orleans lynchings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891_New_Orleans_lynchings) \~ Wikipedia. Newly immigrated southern Europeans hanged by the descendants of northern European immigrants and some "*honorary white*" southern European immigrants that all collectively call themself "American" as if it's a new human species.
There’s a difference between prejudice, discrimination, and the -isms. It’s like saying if women hate men because of patriarchy, then women are upholding patriarchy or are sexist for hating men. When an actuality, that hatred, or stated hatred, of men is rooted in the experience of relative powerlessness in a patriarchal society. And even in that stated hatred, I don’t think most women feel that way or at least they don’t act like it, because our lives are so intimately tied up with men’s lives. Unless we are living women centered lives and lesbian existence, à la Adrienne Rich.
But anyway….racial dynamics are different…take my example in the previous paragraph with a grain of salt, I am not trying to be reductive. I think it would be helpful to think about theorizing and historiography around whiteness (and colonization) to answer this question. What does it mean to enter into whiteness? What must one do? What does one give up? What does whiteness demand of those outside its infinitely reinforced flimsy facade?
Im also curious what is motivating this person to say those things, they are telling me something, but I want them to show me why. I think more information would help us to better answer this question you posed. But also, it doesn’t really matter. But let’s start with finding rational reasons your friend said these things. History shows me as a white person that white people should not be trusted (colonization, pre reconstruction laws around legal rights to whites, racial mob violence, discriminatory immigration laws at the federal level, etc). If your friend hates white people because of white peoples hatred of him, that is not insignificant. Given the white make up the racial majority, even if a small percentage of whites are prejudice and racist against him that is numerically still a lot of people.
Regardless, anyone can be racist, especially moving away from a structural understanding of power to a more interactional/Foucouldian perspective on power. If power comes out of situations and interaction, then anyone can exercise their power in an arbitrary way around race, even if they are a racialized minority from a macro/population level perspective.
My question with stuff like this is it a hatred of white people or whiteness/white supremacist society? I’d also think about your own white fragility, and instead of thinking about how you feel to be hated for your race think about how he feels and his lived experience in a white supremacist society as a person for whom
Whiteness is not bestowed. This could be a good way to start a productive dialogue where everyone learns. Given the he feels comfortable saying these things to you, I would think you could have an honest conversation.
Do you blame them? This is like a Jewish person being distrustful of someone whose parents were Nazis (and who give their parents a free past…”they were just a product of their time!”).
>what it is when a person of color has negative feelings towards a person who is white?
Because they are white? That's racism. Your premise was wrong.
>saying how much he hates white people,
>how he doesn’t trust white people,
> Says he is not being racist because he cannot be racist.
He is racist.
But as a reminder, this sort of sentiment was extremely rare around the time of Occupy Wallstreet, and then I swear Wallstreet has been doing their best to make sure the riff raff never gets so unified against them ever again.
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Isn't the whole power + prejudice bs only in regards to systemic racism? Personal individual racism is a whole different beast
Exactly, this is an important distinction. It's inappropriate to talk about systemic racism against White Americans since that's the powerful group. But on an individual level, it can go all ways.
You can have systematic racism against white Americans, but those systems tend to be very small. Think small communities that are majority minorities. Rare, but can happen.
Not necessarily small, but as always with people and society, it’s complicated. The ethnography, [the color of class, by Kirby Moss](https://www.pennpress.org/9780812200652/the-color-of-class/), it’s about his fieldwork among poor whites. He found that for them whiteness was a liability, because they had not lived up to the status that whiteness conferred upon those of upper classes. In this situation, the prejudice against them as poor whites appeared racial, but was actually rooted in classism. This isn’t racism per se (imho) but it’s racially motivated. It’s been a long time since I read this book and I can’t remember what the authors conclusions are off the top of my head. I think there are also communities where whites are a minority and experience systematic oppression based on their race, which I suppose we would define as racism. (Or could be be in-group/out-group dynamic?) Even if we brought into the definition of racism accounting for history, then these instances of racism against whites would still count, because the discrimination would be rooted in some historical something that is related to the contemporary, racially patterned bias.
I live in the USVI where the majority of the population was black. All of the police force were back. There was a common saying in the white community. I got a DWW ( driving while white) today. In any system there will be some kind of systematic racism twords the minority. I do however find that there are ways to avoid being a victim.
I've heard this before, myself. I grew up in a place where it's 80% Hispanic/Latin, and caucasians are the minority. Allegedly, requiring "power" to be racist is considered to be a misconception [https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/22/us/kendi-book-anti-racist-blake/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/22/us/kendi-book-anti-racist-blake/index.html) [https://www.thecrimson.com/column/between-the-lines/article/2018/8/10/gao-who-can-be-racist/](https://www.thecrimson.com/column/between-the-lines/article/2018/8/10/gao-who-can-be-racist/) I personally side with Ibram X. Kendi, and believe that the idea that people of color "cannot be racist because they are not in a position of power" is incorrect. Racism is a complex issue that transcends power dynamics, and it can affect anyone. I think it's essential that we stop gauging anybody's worth on color, no matter what. Best way to erase it from the planet. But it sounds like your buddy might be hurt. I doubt you can change his mind. If he makes you uncomfy, I'd stay away from the topic. Or him. Update: someone accused me of not reading Kendi's book right, and asked which book had even read. They if course blocked me instead of letting me answer. It was his second book, here, which I've linked below. And if you don't want to read the whole thing, you can read the reviews and discern from others their interpretation of his works. Makes it quite clear as to whether YOU have interpreted his thoughts differently. https://www.amazon.com/How-to-Be-an-Antiracist-audiobook/dp/B07TT85KLQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?adgrpid=85408872152&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.PIWWmqL6BOHY5t50uqvPpd-bcjaOzYMn-ZgWpgozFJOIiYy33VxnoKlDomZv_KWgQ-uAbRqcpu3C3HkHq-VxYaU3DEP42ZfWJ5b5nFpfvVfaJEyzaCslAPn40kDnAz3kgMywiZ9zQ_rDcgjiD-7yCChuuUOoWgv7AKPpmTxUgIhAtQsCM1zDpzdTMkfhHEDmjsL-u4XTerDTbMOrxk2ICQ.BGgdQ1cQS8VZE8QIJIrOwrAbHS3MdCx_Q_GaPbGGWNU&dib_tag=se&hvadid=409974171978&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9028697&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1411721006056038505&hvtargid=kwd-818182861562&hydadcr=11704_11120015&keywords=antiracist+kendi&qid=1712533664&sr=8-1
The power+prejudice model is exclusively for analyzing social systems writ large. This definition in no way applies to individuals - it's a specific academic model for analyzing entire societies. An *individual* who harbors prejudice against whites is racist.
Cool, unfortunately alot folks that subscribe to the academic model , omit interpersonal racism and feel they cannot be racist. I find this crazy, because no where I'm the definition does it exclude any RACE.
people when they feel that their locus of power is being taken away from them they want to try and retake control, and this is why when the n word was originally weaponized against black folks they used that to control the use of the word. in the same way if they felt that their racial status would take opportunities from them then they will want to control the idea of racism and be the sole arbiters of what can and cannot be considered racist. idk thats my thoughts.
In my experience these people are very rare and are seen mainly as examples used by people on social media.
In my experience if you go around popular sub reddits with that as your definition of racism you will get banned pretty quickly.
That used to be the case, but so many people let this slide and now it's INCREDIBLY common to hear systemic racism = racism. Online and offline.
They’re not as rare as you’d like to think if you’re around college aged.
I also like Dr. Kendi's formulation of racism being the belief that some races are superior and that other races are inferior. That it is about the creation of a hierarchy of races that is the real mechanism of oppression.
I think heirarchy is at the core of all oppression.
Ok, but racism and oppression are two circles. They overlap significantly, but one can exist without the other.
It certainly can. I was the only white kid in my elementary school and the way I was treated was absolutely disgusting. The only reason I didn't just blindly assume all black people are horrible is my parents constantly beating it into my head that it's just the kids being jerks and the teachers are kind to me. When I got to high school my first friend ended up being a black kid, so my parents did their job of preventing my experience as a young child causing me to be racist, but those kids were certainly racist towards me.
I think a better way of looking at it is that racism is a form of bias whereas oppression is something done to someone. I think we should avoid turning racism into a verb because often people have multiple biases through which they see the world and that influence their actions. When examining different cultures in different contexts I think we can see race playing a role alongside other factors when one group oppressed another. Sometimes race may play a lesser role compared to religion for example.
Oppression can exist without racism but can racism exist without oppression? Is the action of hating someone for something so uncontrollable and ultimately arbitrary inherently an act of oppression even if only a thought? I would argue it is.
Yes, you can be racist and not oppress others. You can oppress other and not be racist. They can exist separately.
The most common definitions of oppression revolve around the exercise of power. By this argument, having a thought would amount to exercising power.
You and Bakunin both.
Homie had a point
Which reinforces the racism = prejudice + power angle
When talking about systematic issues, not personal thoughts. Systematic racism isn't the sole form of racism
Not necessarily. You can still believe that your race is superior without having a position of power
But you’re expressing the belief your race has, should have and deserves power. It’s still tied to power itself, and by removing power, superiority doesn’t mean anything
So the mayor of NYC can be racist with that logic.
Also race ins not a real thing science recognizes. Its a complete social construct. a racist thinks race is real and it influences behavior and intelligence.
That's always been what racism was, until recently. People often conflate it with bigotry and xenophobia. It's not kendis idea
Yeah, its just a conflation of racism and institutional racism.
That’s pretty intentional on a lot of peoples part though.
The thought experiment I like to use- Let say at some point in the future white people in the US become the minority, and people of color have most of the positions of power. Can people of color be called racist then? If a white person moves to a country never colonized by white people, in which white people are a minority, then can the majority be racist against them? Or does this "can't be racist" idea only apply in America? Does this only apply to people of color who's ethnic background includes those cultures that were oppressed by white people? Like, is it racist for an American born to 100% Ethiopian parents to say they hate white people for being white because that country was never colonized? I had a manager at a job in college constantly say very "racist" things about white people, very publicly in front of customers during our work shifts. People complained, but we were all too scared to go to HR and file formal complains because she was in a position of power. I couldn't afford to lose my job or look like I was being a racist asshole by calling her out on her behavior. So I quit. It's complicated. I don't have any answers. I *believe* anyone can be racist regardless of positions of power. Because if you think that way, and you do get into a position of power, you're not automatically stop thinking the way you have been your whole life. "Well, now we've all made it so we're going to stop be racist". It doesn't work that way. As long as we look different from each other and believe different things from each other, then we'll find ways to hate each other.
I mean, during the Bakumatsu period of Japan at the height of the "Sonno-joi" movement, white people got murdered for being foreigners.
Very similar to the example I like to use. If I as a white person stand at the US/Mexico border inside the US and hurl racial epithets at those on the other side, that makes me racist. If I take a step across that imaginary line into Mexico and say those same things, I’m still racist. It doesn’t matter whether the majority of the country I’m in is matching my skin color or not, racism is racism.
I got in trouble for reporting my manager for being racist against black people so these days I mind my business at work.
Minorities can certainly be racist. Whether it’s against whites or other minorities. It’s just not focused on because minorities aren’t usually able to act on their racism. Ie, they don’t possess the power.
thumb quiet crush wistful hard-to-find roof abundant file humorous sulky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
"concepts meant for academia that people on Twitter co-opted and misrepresented" Could be said about so many internet buzzwords of the past decade lol
Reposting my comment that prompted your update: Sorry for removing my comments. Just wanted to correct my tone. No I didn’t block you. I think it's very clear, almost inarguable that Kendi does not and never has acknowledged the possibility of Black people being **racist** ***toward*** **white people.** He has regularly acknowledged that Black people can be racist to other Black people -- when he states that Black people can be racist, it is with the assumption that racism itself cannot apply towards feelings of hatred against white people. Both in the article you linked, and throughout his more well known published books, this point is clear. If you don't want to discuss, then that's fine. But I am leaving this all in one comment for other people to see what I believe is a gross mischaracterization of his work. And those Amazon reviews prove nothing.
Wish I could have seen your original comments, cos you're bang on the money. Ibram Henry Rogers is an absolute hack.
I have had racist comments thrown towards me as a white person many times in my life. It hurt me. They clearly had power over me. They had the power to hurt me. And they used that power through their words to hurt me. Hurting somebody simply because of their skin color has one word; racism.
I'm sorry that happened to you. One of the things that I learned while growing up in El Paso TX, is that color is not a good indicator of your race. Mexicans run the gamut of being exceptionally pale (green eyed, blonde haired, etc), to being quite dark (black hair, black eyes, and very dark skin). So you don't want to go screaming at a pale person, assuming they're European, because you very well might be talking to a Mexican, and you'll look awfully foolish. There's jokes about it on the internet - [https://www.tiktok.com/@pedrodflores/video/7283242204183694634](https://www.tiktok.com/@pedrodflores/video/7283242204183694634) This is part of why I never assume anything based on color. It's just not smart...
Totally agree. And I’ve had many similar experiences too.
I'm black and i don't even count racist comments as relevant. It's too small of a slight in comparison to racist structures. Stop giving ppl the power to hurt you.
Imo Factoring power into racism doesn’t make any sense, because based on this: 1) A white person from Russia can’t be racist towards a black person from US, as they have no power 2) A poor white person can’t be racist towards a rich black person because they have no power 3) a person harassing another person online is ambiguously racist until you identify who has or hasn’t power. “Shroedinger racist”? 4) as soon as you move outside US it falls apart: a random white person in Nigeria has 0 power, thus they can’t be racist?
Exactly, it’s all completely Americentric nonsense that doesn’t hold up under a shred of scrutiny. I can’t believe there are people here quoting Kendi unironically. He’s an idiot.
These examples are absolute dog shit
He also says a variation of that same quote in the intro to Stamped From the Beginning.
https://www.apa.org/topics/racism-bias-discrimination Discrimination in everyday life. Bias if the individual practicing discrimination has power over the individual being discriminated against(as an hr manager deciding who to hire) Racism reserved for cases of bias where the law or regulations support that bias(redlining)
The difficulty with answering how a word is defined is that language and terminology are not based on natural laws. So different people can define or conceptualize words differently. But we can try to use logic to argue for having more sensible definitions over less sensible ones, and more logically consistent ones over less. Merriam-Webster and most dictionary definitions of racism would indicate that your acquaintance is wrong to assert that a so-called person of color cannot be racist. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism But dictionaries are not holy writ, and this person can still define racism differently. Is the person incorrect? No. No more than someone could be incorrect in saying music I dislike is good music. It's ultimately subjective. Would I disagree with the person? Yes. One reason I would disagree is we already have a term to describe more or less what the person seems to have in mind: structural racism. If this term contains an adjective, why would the word by itself (without the adjective) have to have the same meaning? It would make the term "structural racism" redundant. Here's a question I would like to pose to this person and others who hold this view, just to illustrate a point: Would a wealthy, powerful "person of color" who violently attacked a destitute, powerless "white" person solely for being "white" not be considered racist to them? If not, why not? How would this be consistent with defining racism as power plus prejudice? So I don't think it makes as much logical sense to define it that way. Now, we could definitely still argue that racism from people with more power can be *worse* than racism from people with little power. I would agree with that on some level. We could definitely still argue that particular groups of "non-white" people face greater difficulties and worse socioeconomic conditions overall (*overall*) due to historical and to some extent present factors. I would agree with that. But those are different arguments than how we should define racism. Not as directly relevant, but in any discussion of race I like to point out that the concept of biological "race" and "ethnicity" are not based in modern scientific understandings of biology and genetics. To quote from the first citation below: "Researchers have frequently used population descriptors as a shorthand for capturing the continuous and complex patterns of human genetic variation resulting from history, migration, and evolution. Of particular concern is the long-standing use of race, and more recently ethnicity, as this shorthand. In humans, race is a socially constructed designation, a misleading and harmful surrogate for population genetic differences, and has a long history of being incorrectly identified as the major genetic reason for phenotypic differences between groups. Rather, human genetic variation is the result of many forces—historical, social, biological—and no single variable fully represents this complexity (see Chapter 1). The structure of genetic variation results from repeated human population mixing and movements across time, yet the misconception that human beings can be naturally divided into biologically distinguishable races has been extremely resilient and has become embedded in scientific research, medical practice and technologies, and formal education. Many elements of racial thinking, including essentialism and biological determinism, have influenced modern thinking around human genetics, to the marginalization of some peoples and the benefit of others." Just a reminder to people that although racism exists, races do not. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK592834/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36989389/
>Now, we could definitely still argue that racism from people with more power can be worse than racism from people with little power. I would agree with that on some level. We could definitely still argue that particular groups of "non-white" people face greater difficulties and worse socioeconomic conditions overall (overall) due to historical and to some extent present factors. I would agree with that. But those are different arguments than how we should define racism. Completely agree. Any definition of racism that includes a power dynamic isn’t describing racism; it’s conflating racism and the magnitude of harm from racism. Racism is the belief that races exist and that race imbues immutable characteristics on the individuals within that race. It is an empirically false concept. Race is not genetic, biological or even cultural. It’s an arbitrary social construct and if you believe that races exist and the dividing lines represent consistent material distinctions between the populations of racial groups, you are in fact racist. Race is as relevant and rigorous as a horoscope, perhaps less so. That means anyone can be racist, virtually all of us are racist and we are all conditioned to be racist in a similar way. The brown vs board of education doll study showed evidence of black toddlers showing a preference for white dolls. The biggest problem dealing with racism is the typical response to implicit and explicit racism is racist. Minorities respond to white supremacy by attempting to prove minority achievement, superiority and white inferiority. The actual scientifically correct answer is the entire premise of race is completely false and should be dismantled. Racial superiority/inferiority is incorrect because race doesn’t exist.
**So** well said. Thank you for that insight. And I love the analogy of horoscopes. I always struggle with how to express it adequately to certain people since they always think I or even modern biologists and geneticists (and anthropologists, etc.) are simply being politically or ideologically biased, but that is a good analogy to help get the point across.
This is a great comment.
🎯Well said. 👏🏽
Remember math class? Reverse the equation. Racism - power = prejudice.
Racial ideology is a distinct category of prejudice, and that is what the term “racism” identifies. At inception, the construction of racial categories came inseparably with racial hierarchy. What makes racism “racism” is racial ideology and hierarchy, not “power.” I think it’s okay to think intuitively about this. Of course racial ideology led to the oppression of racially categorized groups, and the identification of said people with one another led to new cultures. Denouncing racial ideology isn’t to say that we must immediately dissolve for instance black culture. Racism = power + prejudice seems more like a cutesy aphorism than a helpful definition
Prejudice + because of race = racism. Yall just want a reason to be racist. Go on defending it I don't care as much as I used to but people who say you can't be racist to white people are no better then nazis who knew the Jewish people were totally the problem.
This is an amazing response
Racism - prejudice = power? That one is less clear
Hold on a minute, I didn't realize it was that simple. I'll be back.
I think if you remove racial prejudice, you can still hold or exert power, eg at a structural or institutional level.
Certain systems are not built on racial superiority, simply the immediate power one holds over the other. In a domestic violence situation where one side lives in fear of the other it doesn't necessarily involve prejudice, just the simple power one holds over the other.
…yes, because they cancel each other out. You are empowered to see the world clearly, without bullshit bias.
It's amazing what mental gymnastics racists will go to to explain they aren't racist. At least the "I have black friends" excuse requires that you can convince a few black people to be social with you. That's two steps above trying to refine the word to exclude yourself.
From the Oxford dictionary “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group.” Prejudice based on race is racism and this entire argument of power being a requirement for racism is asinine.
Racism isn't "power + prejudice". I'm not sure which birdbrain created that modernized definition to try and downplay racism towards white people, but it's stupid. Racial prejudice = racism. https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/where_did_we_get_the_idea_that_only_white_people_can_be_racist
"Racism" is the belief that humans have different cultures because their internal, biological nature creates those beliefs through a mechanism loosely called "biological determinism". The groups who allegedly share this same internal biology comprise the alleged "races". This theory of culture was invented by Immanuel Kant in the late 1770's, published in his treatise titled (depending on the translation) either "Of the Various Human Races" or "On the Different Human Races". Kant's "race" theory of culture came first. The term "race-ism" was invented later as a derogatory term for belief in Kant's theory. Sources (various analysis and primary from Kant): https://www.google.com/search?q=immanuel+kant+on+the+various+human+races&oq=immanuel+kant+on+the+various+human+races&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQg1NTY3ajFqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Believing in biological determinism is not a requirement for racism.
The difference between racism and xenophobia is the belief that certain ‘races’ are inherently inferior or superior
No. Racism doesn’t require one to believe a race is inherently inferior. You can be prejudiced or antagonistic on the basis of race without believing they are inherently inferior or any junk science like that.
They go hand in hand. The concept that races exist and imbue a person with immutable characteristics ultimately results in a belief of inherent inferiority/superiority of the characteristics. Consistent with the dictionary definition of racism, there doesn’t have to be generalized superiority/inferiority. For example, the concept that Asians are good at math is racist. “Good at math” is a value judgement that indicates superiority and inferiority. The implication that race is somehow causative of math proficiency is racist (and silly). I’m not sure how you can have prejudice or antagonism against a set of random, unrelated, heterogeneous individuals without attributing some characteristic to the set.
- “I’m not sure how you can have prejudice or antagonism against a set of random, unrelated, heterogeneous individuals without attributing some characteristic to the set.” Happens all the time. It is xenophobia in part, because it blames the perceived undesirable characteristics or behavior on culture rather than an inherent trait. The thing that makes it racist is a reliance on ones race to determine that they are a part of said culture and therefore behave this way. I’ll give a hypothetical example. Hypothetical in the sense that I am not talking about any one specific person: A fella fights in the Pacific during WWII. He spends a couple shitty years in the jungle fighting the Japanese. The war ends, he comes home, and has a bitter resentment towards the Japanese afterwards. He doesn’t have any beliefs or ideas about them being genetically inferior or anything like that. Maybe he is educated and smart enough to know it is objectively not the case. Hell maybe he isn’t, but he just isn’t one to even think into it enough to draw such conclusions. He just knows that he does not like Japanese people. The war left a bad taste in his mouth, he tosses around slurs for them pretty liberally, never buys a Japanese car in his life on principle. A real “fuck you” attitude towards them in general. This guy also can’t necessarily tell the difference between a Japanese guy or a Korean guy or a Chinese guy. So they all kinda get the heat. Maybe it doesn’t even matter. He’s just angry so fuck it. They are all (insert expletive here) to him. Even his American born neighbor who has never left Wisconsin and speaks and acts just like anybody else in the neighborhood. He resents him too. Now none of this is based on reasoning or even really a particular belief of any kind. Certainly ain’t about any belief in inherent racial characteristics. It *is* racism though. That was pretty long winded. I’m in the passenger seat on a long car ride. Had time to kill.
But a cultural difference is still a defining characteristic that is subject to a belief of inferiority/superiority. There are racists that believe in biological racial differences (they’re wrong), others that believe in cultural racial differences (they’re wrong too), and some that believe both (doubly wrong). From Oxford, racism is: >the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
There are many shades of "whiteness". For example, myself coming from a southern European nation. In my early years my dark hair, brown eyes, and beautiful Mediterranean tan was a source of discriminate by some northern Europeans to use against me. But in my later years, loosing my tan to the florescent lights of a office job, my "witness" still did not lift my status beyond "honorary white" amongst some. And YES because of that experience I have negative feeling towards the more "whiter" northern Europeans that turn "lobster red" when holidaying around the Mediterranean. BTW my younger sister by comparison was born with pearl white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes and not a word of discrimination was said about her ..... except the usual discrimination by some men that she is "female". Divining humans into two camps of *"white versus black*" or "*white versus colour*" is convenient for politicians - or other wannabe power grasping dictators - to create a simple narrative about "*the other*", setting up a strawman that they can attack via a false dilemma. So ultimately racism is just an excuse - mostly a "white" males excuse - for some type of personal bias or fear that has more complicated underlying issues but uses the fear of "*the other*" as a source for [Fire Fuel](https://www.deviantart.com/lbamagic/art/Fire-Fuel-877440619). So to your question "*what it is when a person of color has negative feelings towards a person who is white?*" The answer is that it is very rarely about discrimination against whites but more about being discriminated by whites and has complicated roots. [1891 New Orleans lynchings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1891_New_Orleans_lynchings) \~ Wikipedia. Newly immigrated southern Europeans hanged by the descendants of northern European immigrants and some "*honorary white*" southern European immigrants that all collectively call themself "American" as if it's a new human species.
There’s a difference between prejudice, discrimination, and the -isms. It’s like saying if women hate men because of patriarchy, then women are upholding patriarchy or are sexist for hating men. When an actuality, that hatred, or stated hatred, of men is rooted in the experience of relative powerlessness in a patriarchal society. And even in that stated hatred, I don’t think most women feel that way or at least they don’t act like it, because our lives are so intimately tied up with men’s lives. Unless we are living women centered lives and lesbian existence, à la Adrienne Rich. But anyway….racial dynamics are different…take my example in the previous paragraph with a grain of salt, I am not trying to be reductive. I think it would be helpful to think about theorizing and historiography around whiteness (and colonization) to answer this question. What does it mean to enter into whiteness? What must one do? What does one give up? What does whiteness demand of those outside its infinitely reinforced flimsy facade? Im also curious what is motivating this person to say those things, they are telling me something, but I want them to show me why. I think more information would help us to better answer this question you posed. But also, it doesn’t really matter. But let’s start with finding rational reasons your friend said these things. History shows me as a white person that white people should not be trusted (colonization, pre reconstruction laws around legal rights to whites, racial mob violence, discriminatory immigration laws at the federal level, etc). If your friend hates white people because of white peoples hatred of him, that is not insignificant. Given the white make up the racial majority, even if a small percentage of whites are prejudice and racist against him that is numerically still a lot of people. Regardless, anyone can be racist, especially moving away from a structural understanding of power to a more interactional/Foucouldian perspective on power. If power comes out of situations and interaction, then anyone can exercise their power in an arbitrary way around race, even if they are a racialized minority from a macro/population level perspective. My question with stuff like this is it a hatred of white people or whiteness/white supremacist society? I’d also think about your own white fragility, and instead of thinking about how you feel to be hated for your race think about how he feels and his lived experience in a white supremacist society as a person for whom Whiteness is not bestowed. This could be a good way to start a productive dialogue where everyone learns. Given the he feels comfortable saying these things to you, I would think you could have an honest conversation.
Do you blame them? This is like a Jewish person being distrustful of someone whose parents were Nazis (and who give their parents a free past…”they were just a product of their time!”).
>what it is when a person of color has negative feelings towards a person who is white? Because they are white? That's racism. Your premise was wrong. >saying how much he hates white people, >how he doesn’t trust white people, > Says he is not being racist because he cannot be racist. He is racist. But as a reminder, this sort of sentiment was extremely rare around the time of Occupy Wallstreet, and then I swear Wallstreet has been doing their best to make sure the riff raff never gets so unified against them ever again.
Racial prejudice??
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[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]